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WHOA That's Good Podcast
I Was Smiling ... But I Was Not Okay | Sadie Robertson Huff & Craig Groeschel
00:55:43
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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:27]
B
Tap the banner to learn more. What is up? Well, that's good, fam. Happy Wednesday, everyone. I hope you're having a great week, but I can promise you this, it is about to get so much better because we have a guest on today that is no stranger to anyone. Craig Groeschel is on the podcast today, but before I officially introduce him, I have to tell y' all about his new book, you heal your hurting mind. And let me read you the subtitle because everybody needs this Biblical hope for Anxiety, depression, burnout, and the emotions no one is talking about. That's what we're going to be talking about today, and I'm so thankful for it. Craig, thank you so much for Pastor Craig for coming back on this podcast.
- [01:15]
A
Sadie, you know, you and Christian are two of my favorite people in the whole wide world. Amy and I love you guys so much. Your whole family, you're an example. You're some of the most fun people to be around, some of the most godly people to be around, and the wisdom you share is incredible. So it's a real honor to be back with you.
- [01:33]
B
Thank you so much. Well, it's very apparent already, by the way, that you're encouraging me, but you guys are the best encouragers. I truly, I think about this and I say this all the time. It means so much when someone older than you speaks life into you and faith and believes in you. Louie and Shelly have been people like that for me. You and Amy have been people like that for me. When you don't necessarily believe it in yourself yet, you haven't really gained the confidence in yourself yet. And then people older than you say, hey, it's not about you. It's about God and you. God's doing something special and you keep going, keep preaching. I'll never forget the first time I spoke at Passion and I was feeling so insecure, so under qualified, and you came up to me and you spoke so much life into what God was doing in my life and the message that I preached. And you're like, those analogies were so good and what you pulled out of Scripture, and it's really cool to hear it from someone who knows scripture so well, just to encourage someone younger. So thank you for being that person. It means a lot.
- [02:31]
A
You're easy to encourage. The first time I heard you, I was blown away by the quality and depth of your content. Your presentation is fantastic. You're so easy to listen to. You're unbelievably relatable, but the depth of your insights were profound. And I told Amy so I'm going to do whatever I can to get her to preach at our church. And we pulled it off. And now we got to pull it off again.
- [02:53]
B
Let's do it. I'm there. Your church is awesome to preach at. If you don't know about Craig Life Church, then you haven't heard about. You're living under a rock because Life Church is reaching the nation, reaching the world, truly. So not only just people who go to Yalls church, but your YouTube content, posting your sermons is incredible. But I'm really excited to talk about this particular subject because, like you said, it's one that not a lot of people in the church talk about. You actually mentioned in the book that the church should be the place we feel the most comfortable talking about this, but for some reason, it's not. Why? Why is that the case?
- [03:28]
A
Well, I think it's getting better. At least I hope it is. But I grew up stating a generation where talking about mental health was not. It wasn't even a phrase. If someone said, I have a mental health issue, we would have thought that they must have been hospitalized in some kind of extreme situation. So my age group came up like that. And in the church world sometimes, unfortunately, I think that people think that just having faith is going to cure everything. And so if you're saved by Jesus, you shouldn't struggle with any kind of mental health issues. And so people wanting to, you know, fit in and, like, genuinely wanting to please and honor God, sometimes they don't want to come in and say, yes, my sins have been forgiven. Yes, I've been saved. And yet I'm still battling with deep anxiety. And they feel like it's maybe a lack of spiritual discipline or lack of faith when it could be any number of different things. And so I'm really thankful. I think that it is improving and we have more work to do. The church should be the safest place to talk about mental health issues and our struggles and our vulnerabilities and our weaknesses. And I want to work with you to do our little part on this amazing podcast to help make that even more so. In the years to come, it's great.
- [04:44]
B
So I'll be vulnerable from the start. You mentioned passion before we got on. And at Passion, I shared about my own anxiety, and I. I've talked about anxiety a lot. I wrote a book called Live Fearless years ago. I talk about anxiety, but it's always easier to talk about something when you're, like, well past it, you know? And a lot of times when I'm talking about an anxiety attack, I'm talking about years ago, because I haven't struggled that deeply recently with anxiety. Besides, after I had Honey, I went through, like, an. A very hard period of, like, postpartum anxiety. And I'm honest about that. Talk about that. But. But at Passion, it was interesting because it wasn't like, oh, this was years ago. I had anxiety. It was like, no, this was two nights ago. And to be honest, like, I. I was having to overcome getting here. You know what I mean? Like, this was making me very anxious to just, like, come on stage, which I didn't share, like, the depth of that, but. But I really was struggling, and I was just feeling, like, so anxious, overwhelmed, had all these thoughts, and it was, like, so many different layers to it, and some are valid and some are not. And I'm going through all that. I end up texting some girls, asking if they can pray for me, and then called a friend. We prayed together. She just encouraged me through it. Christian, of course. Christian told me. He said, you should have told people I was hunting. And that's why you called your friend. I would have been there for you. I was like, I know. I know. Christian was hunting that night. So, of course, when you're alone, you get the thoughts in your head. I'm taking care of the three kids. They finally, the house was still, and I had this anxiety attack. And so then two nights later, I'm speaking at Passion with, like, 50,000 young people, and we're talking about sanctification and all this stuff. And I just felt. And I told Ben Stewart and JP Jonathan Clue right before we went up, I was like, hey, I'm just. I just want y' all to know. I want to share this, that this happened, because I really want students to know it's okay if. If you struggle like that and you have anxiety, like, it's okay. It doesn't disqualify you from. From showing up, and you're showing up, and spirit of the Lord is going to get you through it. So I just want to be honest and transparent. Well, then the next night, you were There, Pastor Louie, he starts preaching, and that was most vulnerable I had ever seen him in a message at Passion, talking about his own anxiety. And he got to this point in the message, and he said, I had to confess to my friends that I am your pastor and I am a mess. And I. When he said that, something in me just, like, it felt so relatable to what I have felt for so long that, like, I just keep showing up and leading, but I feel like a mess sometimes. Why do I still have this anxiety? Why am I still, you know, not over this? I know the scripture. I quote the scripture. I believe in the Word. Why do I still feel this way at times? And seeing someone like Louis say it was like, oh, okay. Like, I'm not the only one. It's okay to have that and still lead. I cried for, like, two hours after that worship. I was like, it was just so good. It was a breakthrough for me. And so I say all that to say as I dove into this book and hearing you talk about it, too, it surprises me, but it shouldn't. It surprises me because I think we're always surprised when a leader admits that they have anxiety, but it shouldn't, because we're all human. What has your journey with anxiety looked like to lead you to a place of writing a book like this?
- [08:00]
A
Well, I'll answer that. First, I just want to say that I was so moved when you did that at Passion. You're in front of 50,000 people, and it was so humble and so relatable. And in the same way, Sadie, when you said that, I thought, oh, my gosh. She deals with that too. Like, literally. I wouldn't think you would. You wouldn't think I would. Which is hopefully really comforting for anybody that does battle with anxiety, that it doesn't make you a bad Christian. It just makes you human. And I grew up, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, and we were kind of. We were the latchkey kids. And so we just really, like, had to be tougher. We were kind of raised ourselves. And so admitting to weakness or admitting to pain is something that's just not been a skill of mine at all. And what happened is, you know, we've been in. Amy and I have been honored to pastor Life Church for 30 years. We had five years of ministry together before that. So 35 years of ministry and literally 20. 25 years in of ministry. We had never really had any kind of what I'd call significant. There weren't any, like, really big emotional walls or barriers. We Just always showed up and always kind of had the presence and faithfulness of God. And little by little, somewhere along the way, the grind started to wear on me. The weight started to feel heavier, and I would just kind of learn to continue, continue, continue, continue. And then one day, Sadie, all I can say is the accumulation of it simply became too much. Just too much. Too much mentally, too much physically. And I didn't know how to acknowledge that. And I thought there was only one way, and that's just through. I didn't know how to stop. I didn't know how to admit it. I didn't even acknowledge it. I just thought, we'll just keep pushing through. And so what I started to do is I started to say, like, I'm not doing well. And that's about all I could say. Can you pray for my not doing well? And what happened is just like you at Passion, you. You maybe had anxiety, but you did fantastic. You did great. And so I would say, I'm not doing well. And then I would preach the sermon and it would be kind of like last week's and I'd say, I'm not doing well and I'll go and love on people at church. And it would be about like last week. And so I could function outwardly, but inwardly I was breaking down. And one of the things that I learned by working with kind of a world class counselor is that I have a very low emotional expression. And so he had to work with the people around me and just help them to see it. Whenever Craig says he's not doing well, take that as like a level nine warning. It sounds like a level three, because I'm not crying, I'm not falling apart. But that was literally the only way. I could barely get those words out. And then I just kept thinking that someone was going to hear and someone was going to come to my rescue. And there was no one that could help me until I surrendered and just asked for it and learned to receive it. So it started with the journey. There was a little by little by little by little. And I kind of came to the point where it was so obvious to me if I didn't do something different, that my health was going to go badly. And that's when I reached out and started asking for. Even asking for a counselor was a hard thing to do. And it started there with an acknowledgment and an asking for help and a willingness to receive help.
- [11:36]
B
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- [13:18]
A
Yeah. Asking for help is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of wisdom. And I wanted to say that really clearly to your amazing community. If you're addicted to porn, asking for help is not weakness. It's wisdom. If you're having anxiety, asking for help is not weakness. It's wisdom. If you're dealing with depression or you feel suicidal, you feel hopeless, asking for help is not a sign of weakness. It's wisdom. And just give you the courage to step out. And what you did that night, Sadie, you told us at Passion, when you were alone, you didn't want to call anybody, you didn't want to bother anybody. But you did. You invited others in, and you rarely ever heal alone. We generally heal in community, and that was a really wise thing you did.
- [14:01]
B
Yep. Thank you. I appreciate that you saying that because I wanted to say that because I think sometimes when you hear other people's story, it's like, you know, it seems simple to say, I called a friend, but that was actually really hard. I did not want to do that. I was like, do you not want to do this? Because I, again, I was almost frustrated with myself that I was even back in the spiral of being anxious and all this stuff. And. And also I was like, surely I can get through this myself. Like, I'll just, you know, I can pray for myself and I can go read the Word and all that stuff. And that's true. But also, like you said, it's very hard when you're doing it by yourself. Why not let a friend in? Why not?
- [14:42]
A
Always heal best in community.
- [14:44]
B
Always.
- [14:46]
A
We always heal best in community. God designed us to need each other. And the whole language of having a personal relationship with Jesus, that makes sense and it's true. No one can know Jesus for you except for you. But the truth of the matter is, when you look at the New Testament, the model is not really a personal relationship with Jesus. It's really a corporate relationship with Jesus that we experience the presence of God best together. We heal best together. We confess our needs and our sins to one another and pray for each other that we may be healed. And so we confess to God individually for forgiveness, but we actually confess to people for healing. And there's a difference. And so you did that. And that's what I had to do. And I just want to, you know, stay there for a moment because I know that there are people listening right now that feel like they should get through it alone. Have to get through it alone. Can get through it alone. Maybe you can. And I don't want to talk someone out of it, but in most cases, you'll heal faster and better in community than when. Than you will alone.
- [15:45]
B
Yeah, that's the thing. It's so much faster. Like, I was shocked by how after I called my friend and. And you know, you. You overthink even what you're going to say. You're like, what am I going to say when I call? You know, I already feel emotional or anxious, so it's not going to come out clearly, but you just lean into that. Lean into the uncomfortableness of it for a minute and. And she just let me talk. So I just shared all the different things. And then she went through. Which is actually really sweet because my counselor does this and she did it too. And she's not a counselor, but I think it was just like the next best thing to say because my counselor will say, okay, well what if that does happen? You know? And then you break it down all the way to like, okay, well if that is true, and if that does happen, then Jesus is still good and he's still on the throne and you're
- [16:30]
A
going to be okay. Exactly, exactly. Yes.
- [16:32]
B
And so that's kind of what my friend did to me. He's like, let's break it down. That could happen. All right, now. Now what? Let's get to like, the truth of it.
- [16:39]
A
Yep.
- [16:39]
B
It was so good. And then she prayed over me. And then whenever I hung up the phone, I opened Psalms 91. Cuz that's just been like a go to for me in anxious times. And I made it personal, like you said. I was like, all right, I have my moment, my friends, and now I'm making this personal. I'm praying these words over my life and over my situation. And it prompted me. Psalms 91 prompted me for what to say in my own specific situation too. That's what the Bible can do for you through prayer. Like, it's really nice to pray the Psalms because you're praying these words that are someone else's, but they relate to you so much. And then it also prompts you to bring in what your own struggle with, knowing that like, it's the same God who is meeting these people. So that was extremely helpful for me. And I love, I love what you're saying. Like, as clear as it can be, if this is what you're struggling with, it is not weakness, it is wisdom. And you'll be amazed too, the more you open up to other people, how other people are like, oh, thank you for breaking the ice for me. Now to say that I'm also struggling.
- [17:35]
A
You know, one thing that my counselor did that was really surprising to me is he brought my whole team, family and team in to work with them together, if you can imagine. So I've got my assistant, I've got a couple of the pastors that I've served with for years. I've got my closest friends, I've got Amy, even a couple of my kids, and said to them, here's how we're going to work together in community, basically to protect me from myself, because I'll work myself into the ground and create some ground rules. And so it was. And we Created language that we could understand all the way down to learning. How do we best recover? What happens is sometimes when people get overwhelmed, we think that we need rest. And sometimes we do need rest, but sometimes we don't need to just rest, but we need to be literally be refilled. And so how we rest, what we do can be life giving to us or not. Sometimes you can go on a three day vacation and come back more tired than you did before. Whatever.
- [18:34]
B
That's true.
- [18:35]
A
And so anyway, it's just the whole idea of having people working with me together to get better is so important. And you did that. And again, I keep saying that a lot, but I feel like there's someone out there that needs to hear that is bring a team in together. The body of Christ to help you heal.
- [18:53]
B
Yeah. I love what you said too, about like you were hoping someone would notice and say something. Like, somebody will catch it. Somebody will say something.
- [19:00]
A
Rescue me, please. Somebody.
- [19:01]
B
Yes, rescue me. Someone else say it. And I even. So next step further after passion, I get off stage and you know, I'm. I share in front of people all the time. And you might think like, oh, you're always vulnerable in front of people. So why, why was that hard? You know, but it's still hard. And that one was so fresh. And I was like currently overcoming the anxiety while I'm like in front of everybody. And so anyways, after, Christian was just like, great job. That was awesome. And then we go back to the hotel and I was like, super in my head. He looks at me, he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, no. I'm like totally overthinking that whole thing. And I was just like, I feel so. That was so vulnerable. I'm like, I just got so in my head about it and this was good. But I don't have. I didn't have social media downloaded, so everything was off. There was the first passion our friends and family didn't come to because of the kids and all the different things. And it was like I didn't have any, like, immediate feedback. So it was just me and the Lord and my anxious thoughts. And what was cool though is Christian was like so sweet. He's like, I really wouldn't have thought that that that would have. That you. That you would be overthinking that because it was great. And then, you know, we were able to have a really good open conversation, but it was a good reminder that like, I would have thought my husband knows that, but even my husband, who knows Me and loves me as my best friend. I still have to say it. You know, it's like no one's coming to the rescue. Not everyone can like, you know, intercept your thoughts or hear it. When you say, I'm fine, I'm fine. It's like you have to be honest. You have to come forward, be honest, be vul, allow other people to speak into it. And so I love that you push that in your book. It's so good. One thing though, this is kind of contrary to the community thing. I mean, not contrary, it's all the same. But you said this, and I thought this was so good. You said you have the biggest influence on you. Is that, am I, am I saying that quote right?
- [20:54]
A
100%, yes. Well, no one talks to you more than you do.
- [20:57]
B
And so talk a little bit about that because there's, on one hand you need someone to speak in and you need other people. But on the other hand, you do have to be responsible for the thoughts that you're having and how shaping your own life.
- [21:08]
A
Absolutely. And you're right. It all plays together and all overlaps. And so the community around you shapes you more than you can ever imagine. And then you've almost got like a community in your head, the voices in your head. And sometimes you can be talking to yourself and telling yourself the truth about the word of God. And other times fear gets into your brain or the voices of self doubt or self hatred. And so that battle in your mind is so strong. I've always said that the direction of your life is determined by your thoughts. Wherever your thoughts are strongest, that's where they're going to take you. And so I've done just a ton of study on this and working with Dr. C and others. And this is not going to be new to your community, but whenever you think a thought, it's easier to think that thought again. You're literally creating neural pathways in your brain. And so when if you sit there and say, sadie, that was no good, you embarrass yourself. That was pathetic. They're not gonna like you. You embarrass yourself. How could you be so dumb to share that on stage? That starts to create neural pathways of self loathing talk. If instead you say, the spirit prompted me, I obeyed God, I took a risk because I love people, I honored God by sharing the truth of what he's doing in my life. Then you're creating neural pathways toward truth. And so what I had to do in my own thought life is recognize and here's what I was saying, literally in my own mind was going, I can't do it all. I don't have what it takes. I'm never gonna get it all done. It got so bad, Sadie, and it's hard for me to say it out loud, but I started to think, this job is gonna kill me. Like, I literally thought, this job is gonna kill me. It's gonna be too much. It's gonna kill me. And those thoughts were in my mind over and over and over again. Those were self defeating thoughts. Those were lies from the enemy. And so very clearly, what does scripture say? That the weapons we fight with are not the weapons of this spiritual weapons. And so what do we do? We take every thought captive and we make it obedient to Christ. And so what I started to do is every single time I'd have a thought contrary to the truth of God is I would capture that thought and like write it down on a piece of paper or type it into my phone and say, this is the thought that's not true. And then I would replace it with what the truth of the word of God says. And I would say these things over and over and over again. Like, literally, I bet you I've said it 500 times. For God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and a sound mind. For my God has not. And I'd say, I'd emphasize different words, for he has not given me a spirit of fear. For my God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and over and over and over again. So I'm literally retraining my mind. And that's, you know, neuroscience would say that's replacing new neural pathways. The Bible would call it renewing your mind. Do not be conformed to the patterns of this world. Don't think the thoughts of the lower form of this world, but be renewed by your mind. Let the word of God renew your mind. And so it's really like an exercise, like working out with your husband because he's a beast in the gym. We're learning to exercise and train our mind toward the truth of God. And that takes work. It's intentional. It doesn't happen accidentally.
- [24:27]
B
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- [28:07]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely, yes.
- [28:07]
B
So how do you take thoughts that are valid but not let them own you?
- [28:12]
A
Great question. You know, a lot of times I think in Christianity, we think, well, if our emotion isn't exactly lined up with God's word, our emotion is wrong or bad. No, our emotions are actually very, very real. God created us as emotional beings. And someone, I read this somewhere else. Someone said Jesus experienced 39 emotions in the Bible. So maybe that's true, or maybe more, maybe less. But we all have emotions. Just because we feel something doesn't mean that we have to follow our feelings. We want to acknowledge them, but we don't have to necessarily follow them. And so a couple of tools that I learned, one of them is just naming it, saying it out loud gives you permission to believe that God has power over it. So if you're feeling anxious and you say it to a friend or you say it out loud like, I am feeling anxious. That's not actually a negative confession. That's actually acknowledging what you feel. And if you acknowledge what you feel for some reason, that triggers your brain to feel like you can have power over it or God can have power over it. And then the exercise you alluded to earlier is like, so, so good. If we were talking and the reason I know this is because my counselor's done this with me and I do it before. If you're saying I'm nervous about something, I'd say, what are you nervous about, Sandy? Well, I'm going to get up there and I'm not going to do a good job. Okay, if you get up there and don't do a good job, what's going to happen? Well, I'm gonna feel bad about it. So is Christian gonna still love you? Yes. Are your kids gonna still love you? Yes. Are you still a good mom? Yes. And so if you feel bad about it, what's gonna happen next? Well, I might slip into depression. Okay, where is God in your depression? And so literally, like, if you go through all of your fears, worst case scenario, and address them, where do you stand at the end of the day? You kind of find yourself falling back to. If you truly know who God is, if you understand truly his character and his goodness, you're gonna say, God is still good, God is still faithful. God is still with me. God is still full of grace. When I'm weak, he's strong. When I'm in a place that I wanna be, he's working in all things to bring about good to those who love him and are called according to his purpose. And ultimately, if I die, well, it's better to be with him than it is to be here anyway. And so if you walk through all of the what ifs and they can be real, you see the goodness of God. Another thing I try to do, Sadie, is I'm often like, well, what if this bad thing happens? What if this other bad thing happens? Another thing you can say is, what if it doesn't? What if God shows up and answers his prayer? And when I look back, a really powerful tool I have that's been a game changer is I have a five year journal. And the reason I like it one is you only write a few sentences a day. Because I'm not very good at real, like, great journals. But on today's date, I can look back last year and see the same thing that happened on that specific on today's date two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, five years ago. And I can always see. And what I see, Sadie, is the vast majority of the things that I was so afraid of never, ever happened. And when they do happen in the moment, I think this is going to be bad. Where is God? Why did he let me down? But after a period of two or three years, I can see the hand of God and his faithfulness in it. Even in the things that I never would have wanted and never had chosen, I can see that I got to know God in a more intimate way. You would have never wanted to go through severe anxiety two nights before speaking at Passion. And the way you got to know God through that pain is a little bit more intimate than you would have before. And you helped me and you helped 50,000 other people, all in the middle of something you would not have chosen. That's how good our God is.
- [32:09]
B
That's so true. That's so good. I think that's why when Louis shared that, it made me cry for two reasons. I felt like, wow, okay, if you can overcome that and do that, then I can do that. And then it kind of hit me because I was overthinking it. Like I said the night before, I was like, maybe when I shared that, it had the same effect in someone's life as it is for me right now as Louie saying that. And I was like, okay, God, like, thank you. Then it's worth it. Then. Thank you for allowing me to go through that and fumble my words on stage to be transparent and honest.
- [32:43]
A
And you just said you can overcome it. So that's so important is you believe you can, because some people don't think they can. Sometimes we start. What's a little bit scary, Sage, is sometimes we start to create our identity around our vulnerabilities. You know, you're like, I have anxiety. I've been diagnosed with this. And I try to try to help people see you are not your diagnosis. That is not who you are. And that's a temporary. And you also said earlier, Sadie, you said you hadn't battled with anxiety like you did in the past as much. And so if you look at the trajectory of your last five years, maybe five years ago, anxiety was more of a ongoing problem. It's less of that today. Meaning we are not absolute beings. We are fleshly people vulnerable to temptation, fighting against the principalities and powers of this world. And that means that we don't always get. You're emotional. You had maybe some anxiety or depression after having A baby. Whose fault was that? Well, your hormones were out of whack. Super normal. You didn't do anything wrong. Your body was doing what God designed it to do, normalizing after a traumatic birthing experience. And so that's part of it. And what we want to do is we want to look at the trajectory of our lives. Sometimes the low valley points, which I had a very scary low valley that's now a part of my story that helped me find the way up to the mountain again. I didn't know the way up the mountain because I'd never had to climb it before. And so it's a journey. Healing is a journey. It's rarely a moment. It can be, but it rarely is a moment. And you can get better and then fall back a little bit and get better and fall back a little bit. And that's part of it every step of the way. Guess who you need. You need the presence of Jesus with you. And that's the beauty of the problems, is it teaches us that we cannot get through it on our own. We need him and we need his people. And so that's why you can consider it all joy.
- [34:37]
B
That's great. Preach. That last five minutes I pray changes someone's life.
- [34:43]
A
Life.
- [34:43]
B
They can hear that, that. That you can find healing and you can overcome it. I had a moment that was really cool in my journey with anxiety a couple years ago. So, you know, when we moved back to Louisiana, I was, you know, going back to the doctors I used to go to as far as just, like, your primary care. And I'm, like, finding my dentist again and, like, finding all of our new things. And, you know, they hand you the paper, like, is this all still accurate? Change anything. Your address or this or that, that. And I'm going through it, and I had marked on there that, like, I have anxiety, like, years before, before I left. And then I was like, I don't. That. That doesn't mark my life anymore. Like, I can take that off. And it was really a cool thing because at the time, whenever I would mark that on my doctor papers, it was to say, this affects my health. And I know it does. And this is a consuming thing in my life. And now I'm like, no, I get anxious because I'm a human. I get anxious because there are real fears in the world. But that doesn't hover over my identity. That doesn't hover over my life. That isn't changing my health or anything like that. And it was just a really cool thing in overcoming I was like, wow. And again, it wasn't like, oh, that's when I was healed. And this is when that happened. It was a daily, you know, surrender to the Lord and allowing him to meet me where I was at. But that was so cool. I love what you just said about not identifying that Easter is such a sweet season for families. But if you're a parent, you know, it can also bring up some really big questions, like, why did Jesus have to die? It can be tough to explain something that serious in a way that young kids can actually understand. And that is why I'm so thankful for Minnow this year and really every year. Minnow's Laugh and Grow Bible for Kids Easter special is doing the heavy lifting this year with a gentle, thoughtful retelling of the Bible Easter story made just for kids. It keeps the focus on Jesus while also walking through the hard parts of the story in a way that's age appropriate and engaging. They paid careful attention to those tricky topics that Easter can bring up, making deep spiritual truth into something fun and memorable. This year, Minnow has supersized it with new fun songs at the end that kids will absolutely love. I love knowing that while we're watching this show, they're not only being entertained, but they're also learning Jesus in a way that they can carry with them as they grow. And this is just the early stages of them really getting to understand who Jesus is. And it's so cool. We have loved every special that Minnow has done. They've always been amazing. I'm super excited about this one. We actually just got the little Minnow book about Easter. And Haven loves to preach, and so she is bringing that little book with her everywhere. And they love watching shows, so this is a great way to watch and learn. Watch Minnow's Laugh and Grow Bible for Kids Easter special today. And if you go visit go minnow.com and use the code WO when you sign up, you'll get your first month for free. That's go minnow.com with the code WO for one month free. And don't miss Minnow's Laugh and Grow Bible for Kids Easter Special.
- [37:42]
A
You know, the interesting story I think is John 5, when Jesus comes across a guy that has been struggling, he can't walk for 39 years, 30 something years. And Jesus asked the guy, you know, he said, do you want to be well? Which is an interesting question because someone was helping the guy every day by the pool, and the guy had to answer like, do you want to be well or do you identify with your problem? And what's interesting is when I started working with Dr. C. Is what I call him, about 18 months into it, I started to see signs of really significant improvement. And that's when I started to ask him, like, you know, how are we going to know when this is actually working? And is it possible? And what I love is that you genuinely have made progress. You had a setback, but you've made so much progress, and you can be well. And I want people to hear that. You can overcome. You can overcome anxiety. It may take doctors, it may take medicine, it may take prayer, it may take the word of God, it may take community, it may take renewing your mind. It may take counseling. It may take a lot. You can overcome depression. You can. You can overcome hopelessness. You can. You can overcome anger. You can. You can forgive what someone did to you, that was horrific, and you think it's unforgivable. With the help of the grace of Jesus, you can forgive as you've been forgiven. And so if someone's stuck right now and feeling there is no way out, there's always a way out with Jesus. There's always a way out. Don't give up. You can be well. Do you want to. Do you believe it? Yes.
- [39:10]
B
It's so good. I love that you wrote it with your doctor, too, because I think that that just adds such an amazing element, because like you said, sometimes it's. It's reading the Bible, it's finding your faith, and also there is counselors, and there are, like, scientific things that are helpful. I remember going to Dr. Amen was who helped me. I've had him on the podcast several times, and he was like, okay, let's just get super practical. When you get anxious, what's the first thing you do? And I was like, oh. I grabbed my hands. And he's like, well, why don't. Instead of, like, getting all anxious and grabbing your hands, go run your hands under warm water and just see if that, like, trains your body to go, hey, I'm okay. I'm good. And for, like, a good solid six months to a year, when I would get anxious, that was just a super simple, practical start towards stopping an anxiety attack. And it always helped. And so it's amazing how little things like that, that doctors can give you a perspective that, you know, it lines up with scripture. It's how God created our bodies. But they know it in a way
- [40:05]
A
that learning to take a deep breath. I'll try to do this. I'll try to Breathe in, and then I breathe out with the truth of God. Whenever I feel it coming up, I breathe, okay, God. And I think of the truth, and I breathe out and say, this is the truth of God. Just literally deep breaths. And that's another very practical thing. I may try washing my hands in hot water if I get anxious.
- [40:25]
B
It helps.
- [40:26]
A
Yeah, I'll try it.
- [40:27]
B
It helps because what he told me was. Was which I'm always cold. And he's like, when your hands are cold or when you're cold, what is. What do you do? Like, you kind of start shaking. Well, it mimics what you do when you feel anxious. You shake because you know, when you. If you have anxiety attacks, you might understand. Like, you start shaking. Like, your heart starts racing. And he's like, so sometimes your body's telling your mind you're anxious, but you're really just cold, you know? And so that was, like, really helpful for me because I couldn't discern the two. Because I was so constantly anxious at that time of my life that I needed to know when, hey, just because you're shaking doesn't mean something bad's about to happen. Doesn't mean you need to be anxious about anything in this room or situation. You're just cold, you know? So it was like, good. Things like that.
- [41:08]
A
You couldn't discover that on your own either, because, you know, you might know God's word on your own, but you might not be getting enough sleep. Your hormones may be out of whack. You may need. Your diet, may not be great. Exercise may help. Like, literally getting outside and walking and not walking. You know what I've learned? Is walking super valuable. Walking outside is even better. Walking outside with somebody is even better. One of the best things for your mental health is walking, but better is walking outside. But better is walking outside with somebody. Little bitty things like that.
- [41:40]
B
Great. Do you know you gave us that advice? You gave Christian and I that advice when we came and visited y'. All. And Christian and I try to go on a walk every single day together, outside. And it is, like, our favorite part of the day with our kids just being outside, walking. And we don't do it every day. Weather, you know, all the different things that get in your way, but that is, like, top priority for us.
- [41:59]
A
Marriage advice. Marriage advice. Walk together.
- [42:02]
B
It is great.
- [42:03]
A
Here's why. You know, just a little bit of the reason why. Outside, no ceiling, sky. It opens you up. You have time to talk about things you wouldn't talk about elsewhere. Your kids aren't climbing all over you. You don't have leave your phone behind. And then, especially for guys, Amy wants to talk. Cause she wants to be face to face and like, have the. You know, that kind of stuff. And it's harder for some men. It's harder for me because that just seems too intense. Guys tend to do things really well side by side. That's why we like to play sports together. We like to be side by side. So you're walking side by side outside, you're talking about things. And guess what? We have, like, literally, I think we solved every big marital issue walking outside. Every vision we had, we hashed out together outside. Every parenting issue we've talked about walking together outside. It doesn't have to be that for everybody, but it's an easy tool that gives us time to process together. That thing's great. I'm so happy to be married to this girl.
- [43:00]
B
This helped us. We were super thankful for that advice. That was one of the reasons I've been so excited about you being back on the podcast. Because I can think of so many pieces of advice that you've said to me over the years that we've implemented that you don't even know because you just said it to us in passing or we saw each other backstage, or you said it even on my podcast that we've actually taken. Like, you when you talked about, like, pre deciding or predetermining, like, what you're gonna do and what's valuable to you so you can make decisions later. That literally came into play yesterday in my life. Someone said, don't give me an answer now. And they threw something at me. And I said, I actually can give you an answer now because I've pre decided what I was gonna say about that. So I love your advice. One thing I do wanna ask you. Cause you talk about burnout in the book, and burnout is a topic that obviously a lot of people are talking about. Cause a lot of people are experiencing it and feeling it. One thing I find, like, so inspiring by you is that you and Amy both in Yalls ministry and marriage, like, you're 30 years into this church, like, life church. Like y' all have longevity. 5 years ministry beforehand. 35 years like this. Amazing. Your marriage. How long have y' all been married?
- [44:04]
A
35 years.
- [44:05]
B
Yeah, 35 years of marriage and ministry. All the kids, all the things. And you've been doing so much life. Like, not just life, but like writing books and putting out content and growing things and starting amazing Bible apps. Like, there's just been so much like that is a lot of life to live and to lead and to do it well. You talk about experiencing burnout in the midst of that. And I guess my question is like when you go through a season, I know in your book you talked about 18 month journey of the burnout or a period where it's like really long but you're still having to be the leader. Like you're still in front of people. How do you, how do you come out of that? When do you know it's time that I actually need to take a break and when do you fight through it? Like you said, I can just keep doing it. I can keep doing it Sunday after Sunday. When do you take a break? When do you keep going and how do you, you come out of times like that?
- [44:53]
A
It's a great question. So I would say that most leaders who are going to experience burnout, generally they're type A, they're drivers. And so when do you take a break? I would say sooner rather than later.
- [45:12]
B
I remember whenever we started low and I had all the what ifs, what if I fail? What if it isn't where I need to be? And looking back, I can see so clearly that God had his hand in the whole thing. Thing. Starting something new is exciting, but it's also very scary. And that's why I'm thankful for Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from massive brands to tiny startups. Team Low starts on Shopify every single day for managing inventory and staying on top of orders. It just works. You can build a beautiful online store with templates that actually match your vibe. And their AI tools are game changers. They help write product descriptions, page headlines, enhanced product photos. Plus everything's in one place. So inventory, payments, analytics and they have a 24. 7 customer support. It really feels like you have a built in business partner. I think it's so amazing. For anyone starting out a business, this is the place to do it. Like I said, we do it for Low. Duck Commander does it. It's just honestly very simple and does everything for you. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com whatever. Go to shopify.com woe again that's shopify.com whoa.
- [46:32]
A
Because most people who are wired like you and probably a big portion of your community is they tend to think I'm going To work, and I'm going to work and work, and then I'm going to take a break when I need it. What I learned to do is not work, not to take a break after the work, but actually to take a rest before the work. And it's a totally different mindset, even if it's the same, you know, four days off is. I used to think I'll take four days after the work as a reward. What I'm doing now is I'm actually saying this is kind of like the tithe. I'm actually going to take four days off now. That's going to prepare me for what's to come. So it's not the reward of what I've already done, but it's also preparation for what is to come. And all time off is not created equal. So you could take a three or four. You could take 10 days off somewhere and come back exhausted. One of the things we did is we worked really, really hard to determine what are the things that are most replenishing to us. And we've discovered. And it's kind of embarrassing, but we go to the same place every single year. We've been there for 25 years. I thought we were boring, but I didn't realize we're actually smart. Because I like rhythm, I like routine, I like the mountains, I like that time with Amy. And going to a place that's predictable for me is more replenishing than going to a place that's new. Other people that'd be the exact opposite, they're gonna wanna go someplace completely new every single time. And they need to be able to acknowledge that going to a big city like New York City is gonna be horrible for me because there's too much stimulation. I go so hard so fast all the time. What I need is God's creation. And I need slow, I need running water, I need cool, I need to hear the birds sing. Depending on the type of work you do, you want to determine the type of recovery that you have then. Also, for me, I had no real hobby, so I pretty much did work, served my family, and then I would work out. But that was just more of a rhythm and a routine, not a hobby. And so it was kind of embarrassing, but my counselor said, I want you to come up with, I think he said, like, 30 or 35 ideas of things that would be crazy, that would feel dangerous to you, and adrenaline producing. And I came up with a short list. I tried two, only two. I tried two new things, and I stuck with both of Them. And it's crazy how I told them, like I paid you all this money all this time, and basically you made me get a hobby. And that saved my life. Actually, it's kind of true because for me, I needed something that would disconnect my mind. And it couldn't be gardening because it's too slow. I needed something. I got my private pilot's license, learned to fly, because when you're doing your first solo, if you don't do it right, you could die. And so that was a thrilling way for me to come out of. In pastoral life, you're always kind of being pastoral, loving, kind, patient. And that gave me permission to go back to kind of my roots. I go, let's do something dangerous. Let's do something adrenaline producing. And I can't remember your question. I just started rambling.
- [49:43]
B
No, this is great. I was talking about burnout. Like, when do you need to take a break? When can you keep going?
- [49:48]
A
Now. Now and then, you know, I would say sooner rather than later. If you don't start taking some rhythms now, then what's going to happen is you'll pay later. You don't want to fall apart. And almost every leader I know, like Louis, the top producing leaders over a 30 year period, almost all of them have a burnout breakdown. Strength. I was really proud that I did not, and then I did. And I'm disappointed that I did. And the reason I did is because I didn't better equip myself on the front end to know how to recover. All rest is not created equal. You have to do what helps you recover and replenish and refill. If you just need a nap, you can take a nap. But you need things that refill you, replenish you. And that's going to be the right people, the right places, the right rhythm. And then what my counselor helped me do is say, we're not gonna slow you down at all. Like, God created you to run hard. We're just gonna help you run hard, healthy. And that meant so much to me is it's not all about slowing down. We're not gonna rewire our lives to be like someone else. We're gonna be who God created us to be. We're just gonna do it in a healthy way.
- [50:59]
B
That's really good. My mom told me that one time because I was like, just saying that I needed a break and all this stuff. And I did. But it was funny what she said. She said, but even if you have one, you're not gonna be still. And I was like, well, that's true, because that's just not who I am.
- [51:15]
A
And you shouldn't be.
- [51:16]
B
You should go and it's not.
- [51:17]
A
Do something that's moving that is replenishing to you.
- [51:20]
B
Yes, exactly. And I think that's the thing when you think all rest is equal. Well, rest looks like this for her. So I'm gonna try this. And then I would just. That would drive me crazy. Like, no, I still want to go and do. But that's restful to me and that's replenishing. But then also, you know, Christian was saying, oh, we should go on a ski trip. I'm like, with three kids, I'd come exhausted, you know, so it's like, what is the best?
- [51:42]
A
And for your marriage, you have to work to find out what works for both of you.
- [51:46]
B
Totally.
- [51:47]
A
And so sometime it might be a two day trip. That's really. For Amy, it's a bed and breakfast where we're reading and I'm bored and she's happy. Another time is it's, I'm doing flying lessons and she's painting. And then there's something for both of us. So you kind of want to really create that kind of dialogue of what's best for you in a marriage. What's best for me, and try to do both those and then what's best for us. And you have to have, you probably have to have a little bit of all those categories to really be successful.
- [52:15]
B
I love that. I love that. And I love how too, like, you can do that in such simple ways. Like, your walk can be moments of rest within the day. Like, for me, I try to look at it like, okay, I might not get that. I can't go on a week vacation right now, or I can't go do something, but I can do that for an hour. I could do that tomorrow. I could change up the schedule for the weekend. You know, you can do things, things more practical and tangible to now. Because if you think, oh, one day I'll take a break, that one day is probably not going to come unless you actually start like planning for it or you just say, okay, today's the day. I'm going to shift things a little bit to take a mental break. Those things are important. And it's cool too in a marriage for those who are married to like, help each other in that. Like, Christian can see that when it's time for me, hey, you should text your friends and play mahjong. Like, that would be fun. Turn your brain off, you know, or I'm like, hey, you should go hunting. Like, that would be great in the morning just to sit in creation. Because I know that for him and there's things together. So I love that advice. This is so good. Gosh, there's so much good. I'm trying to make sure I didn't miss anything that I wrote down that I want to talk about. But I really think we hit it all. I'm really thankful for your work that you put into this. There's so many amazing, practical and challenging things, but also your vulnerability that you put into it. Because again, seeing someone like you be so vulnerable and share how you overcome these things is extremely helpful to people like me and everyone listening. And so thank you very much.
- [53:39]
A
A little piece of trivia on it is I actually wrote this book several years ago. So I wrote it right on the front on the backside of my challenges, and then I put it on the shelf. I tried to write it in the most raw state that I could, and then I was not going to put it out for public use until I sat on it for a few years. One is I just wanted to kind of formalize my thoughts, but I went back through it to see how much of it would I change from the raw state. And I almost made no changes and went ahead and just tried to let it speak for as real as it was. And so, yeah, I did write it in that state of vulnerability and kept almost all of it. There are a couple things that, okay, I'll go ahead and clean that part up. But I wanted to put it out there when it was fresh, kind of like what you did. And I think there's so much healing in that. And so to your community, I want to say you're smart for learning from Sadie because she really is a godly person who seeks God. And I just want to give you the courage. A driving thought from the book is that you're only as strong as you are honest. And you have to be honest. If you're hurting, there's no shame in it. If you're battling with fear, anxiety, depression, anger, burnout, there's no shame in it. You can open up to the right people in the right community, find the right church that's going to love you through it. Call out to God. You can yell at God if you don't understand. Bring the right people into your voice. Get professional help if you need it. Learn God's Word and healing is possible. It's not only possible, but God's designed you, his word, his community, to help you heal. And so if you're going through something, I pray that just through Sadie's story, through mine, through the word of God, you find hope and you do find healing. And we'll celebrate that with you. God is good, and we'll celebrate his work in your life.
- [55:28]
B
It's incredible. Amen. Amen. That's great. Thank you so much.
- [55:32]
A
Thank you, Sadie.
- [55:32]
B
This was amazing. I'm always encouraged and always take away my next steps after I talk to you, so thank you.
- [55:38]
A
Well, look forward to seeing you guys again. Look forward to another workout with Christian, and we are cheering you guys on. You have three kids. We have six. So if you keep going, if you double it, you'll be there with us.
- [55:50]
B
We need to come visit y' all at three and get advice before we go to sick. So we'll come visit, do a workout, do all the things bring.
- [55:56]
A
Bring them on. We'd love to have you anytime.
- [55:58]
B
That would be great. Y' all are the best. Have the best rest of your day.
- [56:01]
A
Okay, thanks. Much love to you. Bye. Bye.