When You Can’t Keep Going: A Conversation on Ministry and Calling | Sadie, Christine Caine & Lisa Harper

Summary

WHOA That's Good Podcast: "Ministry Isn’t Cute — It’s Costly"

Host: Sadie Robertson Huff
Guests: Christine Caine & Lisa Harper
Air Date: September 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Sadie Robertson Huff is joined by renowned authors and speakers Christine Caine and Lisa Harper for an unfiltered, wisdom-packed conversation about the realities of ministry, especially for women. The trio delves into personal journeys, calling versus career, the economics and challenges of ministry, biblical foundations for women in leadership, and enduring when ministry gets hard. Their candid stories, laughter, and moments of vulnerability make this an encouraging listen for anyone considering or already pursuing a life of serving God.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Humble Beginnings: "Ministry Wasn't a Career Track"

• Christine Caine’s Story ([14:23]–[18:59]):
  • Christine’s first "ministry job" was running a youth center in Australia—something she stumbled into by volunteering for a church cleanup, not by seeking a platform.
  • There was no glamour, salary, or awareness that ministry could be a "career"—she simply followed Jesus’s call.
  • Christine's early ministry was challenging, often receiving mockery rather than applause:

    “Where did you learn to preach?...I went to state high schools in Australia. That’s right. Where if you said you had an altar call, you couldn’t say, ‘I see that hand.’ It would be, ‘I see that finger.’ Because that’s what people were giving you... There was no blessing.” – Christine Caine ([16:51])

• Lisa Harper’s Story ([24:36]–[30:01]):
  • Ministry for Lisa was, from the outset, a financial sacrifice with little incentive or precedent for women.
  • She shared a harrowing first day—nervous, shaking, and using a music stand as a podium before a rowdy, indifferent group of students.
  • Lisa on calling:

    “Our calling is where our deep gladness and the world’s deep hunger intersect.”
    (attribution discussed as Friedrich Buechner or Francis Schaeffer, [30:01])

Social Media & the Myth of Ministry Glamour

• Sadie Reflects on Modern Pressures ([18:59]–[22:48]):
  • Social media creates the illusion that ministry = platform, popularity, and even wealth, causing many to get discouraged when their reality doesn’t match the highlight reels.
  • Sadie notes:

    “If that’s why you’re in this, you will tap out fast, because that cannot be your heart for ministry or why you’re stepping into it at all.” – Sadie Robertson Huff ([33:10])

Calling vs. Career: The Heart of Ministry

• The Difference Between Calling and Career ([20:38]–[22:48]):
  • Christine distinguishes calling (all-in devotion to Jesus) from ministry as a strategic, structured career path.
  • “Structure doesn’t dictate the call. The call facilitates the structure.” – Christine Caine ([22:48])
• On Money and Platform ([33:10]–[35:07]):
  • Ministry motivated by recognition or money leads to burnout and loss of joy.
  • Authentic ministry may mean personal financial investment and pouring into others from the heart.

Global Perspective & Perceptions of Ministry

• Christine Brings Context ([36:27]–[38:13]):
  • This platform-centric conversation is unique to Western, especially American, contexts.
  • In persecuted or non-Christian-majority countries, most ministry is unseen, unpaid, and often dangerous.
  • Christine:

    “If they were scrolling on their phones to look at American ministers and thought that’s what the favor of God is, then they would feel like losers. But I have a feeling a lot of them are going to have a bigger reward than most of us.” ([36:27])

The Reality of Ministry: It’s Not for the Faint of Heart

• Staying Pure, Avoiding Burnout ([38:13]–[44:42]):
  • Moving for ministry, facing disillusionment when realizing some aren’t in it for the right reasons.
  • If your “intimacy with Jesus” isn’t intact, you will burn out—or lose your heart—fast.
• On Anointing vs. Gifting ([40:35]–[44:42]):
  • A gift can fill a room and attract followers, but “A gift can’t set anyone free. The anointing breaks the yokes and chains.” – Christine Caine ([43:41])

Guardrails for Long-term Faithfulness

• Lisa’s Practical Guardrails ([44:42]–[48:21]):
  • Gratitude and honest, non-ministry friendships keep Lisa grounded and accountable.
  • Before focusing on platform or “brand,” check your heart for gratitude and relationships that keep you honest.

Women in Ministry: Theology & Experience

• Common Objections and How to Respond ([52:39]–[59:53]):
  • Both Christine and Lisa had to wrestle with scriptural passages seeming to restrict women.
  • Lisa explains these passages in context, referencing female biblical leaders (Phoebe, Junia, Priscilla, Deborah), and recommends further reading:
    • “Blue Parakeet” by Dr. Scot McKnight
    • Dr. Lynn Cohick’s commentary on Ephesians
  • Lisa:

    “The overarching theme of scripture is redemption, not oppression. So if you find yourself using a passage to bully someone else... you probably have it out of context.” ([58:49])

Endurance in Ministry and When You Feel Like Quitting

• On Weariness and Longevity ([61:13]–[67:01]):
  • The same enemy tries to “wear you out,” even if he can’t “take you out.”
  • Christine’s wisdom on endurance:

    “If the devil cannot take you out, he will try to wear you out. And that’s what he does with most people.” ([61:13])

  • Both share the importance of “laboring to enter rest” (Hebrews)—not just hustling but receiving God’s strength.
  • Lisa reminds: Every saint, biblical or otherwise, goes through seasons of losing hope — that’s normal, and it’s the scaffolding of endurance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Ministry Experiences:

  "I tried to sabotage my ministry interview because I knew the guy didn’t believe in women in ministry...I just didn’t want to be poor and wear a turtleneck."
  – Lisa Harper ([26:44])

• On Calling vs. Platform:

  “If the light on you is brighter than the light in you, it will kill you.”
  – Christine Caine (attributed by Lisa, [30:01])

• On Motivation for Ministry:

  “If you’re basing [your motivation] on system instead of Spirit, you’re going to lose yourself in the process.”
  – Lisa Harper ([33:15])

• On the Anointing:

  "A gift can fill a room... But a gift can’t set anyone free. The anointing breaks the yokes and chains.”
  – Christine Caine ([43:41])

• On Women in Ministry:

  “The overarching theme of scripture is redemption, not oppression...If you find yourself using a passage to bully someone else, you probably have it out of context.”
  – Lisa Harper ([58:49])

• On Endurance:

  “You don’t build an endurance muscle overnight...You have to see life–there are trials, there are tests...You don’t know what’s coming down the road.”
  – Christine Caine ([62:56])

• On Desperation for God:

  “The only thing I was thinking was when it doesn’t fill the void, the void actually gets deeper because you, you begin to lose hope...At the end of the day, it's all about relationship, first with God and then with each other.”
  – Lisa Harper ([67:01])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introductions, Banter and Backstories - [00:55]–[13:29]
• First Ministry Steps: Christine’s Story - [14:23]–[18:59]
• First Ministry Steps: Lisa’s Story - [24:36]–[30:01]
• Calling vs. Career/Social Media Influence - [18:59]–[35:07]
• Global Perspective on Ministry - [36:27]–[38:13]
• How to Endure (and why it’s so hard) - [61:13]–[67:01]
• Women in Ministry: Theology and Experience - [52:39]–[59:53]
• Closing Encouragement - [67:01]–[71:24]

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Final Encouragements and Takeaways

• True ministry isn’t glamorous; it’s often costly and countercultural.
• Don’t mistake calling for career—real ministry starts with a surrendered heart, not a pursuit of influence or income.
• Social media can warp our expectations; authentic ministry is measured by faithfulness, not followers.
• Endurance and fruit come from deep relationship with Jesus, gratitude, and honest accountability—not systems or formulas.
• Wrestling with hard biblical questions is healthy; context and lifelong learning are crucial.
• Burnout is real and normal—but rest and community restore hope.
• “Ministry isn’t cute—it’s costly.” The best and only enduring motivation is love for Jesus and others, not platform.

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For further study:

• Blue Parakeet by Dr. Scot McKnight
• Dr. Lynn Cohick's commentary on Ephesians

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Hosts’ Parting Words:

“You help us 100%. I’m like, if God’s raising up chicks…”
“Our goal is just to whatever little bit of hot wind we have to blow it into your sails and praise God for what he’s doing.”
– Christine Caine & Lisa Harper ([71:02])

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For women (and men) wrestling with their place in ministry or feeling weary in the call, this conversation is a reminder: what the world celebrates isn’t always what God values. Stay close to Jesus, stay grateful and honest, and run your unique race with endurance.

Transcript

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[Sadie Robertson Huff]

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[Sadie Robertson Huff]

What's up, everybody? Happy Wednesday. I hope you're having a great day. But per usual. Whoo. It is about to get so much better because I have two of my favorite people on this podcast. Two of your favorite guests. My favorite guests. And they're together. We have Lisa Harper and Christine Cain on the Woe Does Good podcast. Welcome, guys.

[Lisa Harper]

I wish we could have everything we just said off mic because I think a swollen crawfish roller baiting podcast, I think that content is very Old Testament.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's needed. It was inspiring. Yeah. So let me. Let me recap for the listener. Lisa asked me how I'm doing. I said, well, I'm doing fine, except for that I ate crawfish in Louisiana on a summer night, being seven months pregnant and my rings almost didn't fit. Well, they really didn't. I had to get them off. They're back on. I'm done with crawfish. And also, we got to hear about Lisa's new rollerblading adventure. Just tell the listener a little bit about what you're doing, Lisa.

[Lisa Harper]

Well, thank you for skipping over the fact that I too, am swollen as a result of pregnancy, even though I adopted and brought her home 11 years ago. So I appreciate you skipping over that little swell. In fact, I started rollerblading and I rollerbladed the first time around. And I usually think if something comes back in the culture, like don't repeat it, like you're trying too hard, like nobody needs to see me in a tube top. But I thought that is going to be a blast to work out on rollerblades. And I used to do it. And I didn't realize that the street we're on was so much of a hill because usually I'm on a golf cart. And so I almost killed some workmen yesterday. But it was a blast. There was no real workout other than the trauma and the adrenaline dump from flying downhill.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Hey, but you said your calves are sore, so that's something.

[Lisa Harper]

My calves are sore because they were screaming, and I think they were saying words that aren't in the Bible to the rest of me, like, what are you doing?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

You're crazy. And I love it. You know, actually, I have to tell the listener, we had to reschedule this podcast because about a month ago we were going to do it. I was getting over a cold, and the main problem was every time I started laughing, I started coughing, and I was like, the last two people need to do a podcast is Christine and Lisa when you have a coughing laugh attack.

[Lisa Harper]

Chris, when did I have physiological issues with laughing, too? Although it's not usually coughing.

[Christine Cain]

Just for what it's worth, I hope that you put your depends on before you did this, Lisa. That's what I'm hoping. This is what I mean. This is what I'm talking about.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Kristi, when did you and Lisa meet? Do you remember the first time you met, that you met Lisa?

[Christine Cain]

Yeah, I did. But you've got to hear this from Lisa, because it was at a Women of Faith event. I was still living in Australia, and so I'm positively a very passive, quiet, introverted person now, compared to who I was then. My passion for the Lord was at a whole nother level. My zeal, I was demonstrative. So I flew over from Australia. I had really not been in that stream of the church in America ever. And so they invited me because they had heard about our work with human trafficking and, you know, wanted me to come.

[Lisa Harper]

No, she's. She's being humble. They invited her because they wanted her to start preaching at Women of Faith because she's so amazing.

[Christine Cain]

That's awesome. But wait, but so. But I'm still, like, new in that world. I'm this radical Aussie Greek Windex in every room. I'm ready to go, right? And so I am in this arena, and at least, I don't know, 12, 15,000 women in this arena. And it's in a circle, and I'm.

[Lisa Harper]

The stage, the stages. The stages in the round.

[Christine Cain]

Yeah. And elevated in the middle of the floor, and all the people are sitting around, and it was a little bit more of a conservative sort of audience. Like, there was no noise happening anywhere. Lisa, you could take it from there.

[Lisa Harper]

Well, I hadn't met her yet. I mean, she was a really big deal because she'd spoken huge things of the World at Wembley and with Ms. Joyce, but she just hadn't been to that particular environment in America yet. But I had heard, oh, my goodness, this woman named Chris Kane that met her yet. And I was teaching first, and there's a lot of women and this year and back back in the day, Sadie, praise God, he rescued you from this. But we used to have to wear, you know, skirts and blazers and hose and I mean, you just kind of had to dress to the nines if you were opening.

[Christine Cain]

I was.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Hang on.

[Christine Cain]

And I was already freaking out then. I'd never even heard of what St. John's was. I didn't even know chicks would wear pantyhose. They wear them in. Satan wears them in hell. But anyway, so I'm already freaking out when I'm sitting there.

[Lisa Harper]

I love teaching in the round because, you know, you're not static. You get to walk around and talk to people. But the stage was, oh, probably like six feet off the ground. And I started teaching for that crowd. I was pretty demonstrated. Well, I started teaching and all of a sudden, right down below me, walking around the stage, pacing me, is this darling blonde going, that's right, mate.

[Christine Cain]

That's right. Preach, mate.

[Lisa Harper]

Yes, that's right. Following me around. And I was so discombobulated, but I.

[Christine Cain]

Was like this awesome.

[Lisa Harper]

It's like a little Barnabas just running around, sharing me. I mean, I think it's the best I taught that whole year. And so I was like this woman, first of all, she doesn't veil her joy for Jesus. And then she's not into homogeny. She's going to run. However, God has called her to run. And I thought, boy, I haven't been around somebody quite that honest. It felt like in a while, especially in a faith setting. And we had lunch as soon as I finished teaching, and, you know, everybody was clamoring to meet her and Chris. And I mean, we were leaning toward each other, talking about the theological anthropology of women and which was our favorite. I mean, we just. It's like we went 10 years deep into friendship the first day and have been. She's like family Chris and helped me. When things got really tough with the adoption with Missy, it would be Chris that I called. And so she's not just a Christian buddy. She has. She knows where all the bodies are buried in my life, and she has carried me up some pretty steep hills. So I would give her both of my kidneys if she needed them, likewise.

[Christine Cain]

But I would only give her one kidney. But. But still, it's very Similar.

[Lisa Harper]

Well, I was being exaggerative. It's the old Baptist.

[Christine Cain]

I would give her.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Okay, okay, greatest. That is so funny. And I can so see that dynamic happening. I remember one of my first memories of seeing you, Chris, was actually watching someone preach at Passion, and you were sitting near me.

[Christine Cain]

And.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Your feedback is so encouraging and so positive. And we actually. Our family is full of imitators. So that was like, our first experience, like, the Christian world, even, like, that kind of thing, was going to Passion conferences, going. And my family was just sitting there and we were, like, around all of y', all, and we thought the feedback was so funny and so, like, cool. And so we started going totally, totally all the time to each other. I don't think I've ever told you that, but totally. They totally.

[Christine Cain]

So with us, you're saying you were mocking me.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

We were influenced. We were inspired. Let's start encouraging each other like that. So totally.

[Christine Cain]

That's good.

[Lisa Harper]

Well, you will see people when we're at events, even now, kind of look at her. Do you know Missy? Missy learned the physical posture of worship because she's been with Chris since I brought her home from Haiti. She. I was telling Chris the other day, I was pulling up pictures for Missy's 8th grade graduation, and I got real teary because I have pictures of Missy with Chris all over the world worshiping. And she learned physically to worship through Chris. So it doesn't matter what setting we're in. Sadie, sometimes I get so tickled because Missy and I together might be in a setting that's not super demonstrated. I mean, the saints love Jesus. They're just not right. And Missy will go right up to the front of the stage with her hands up, because that's how she's learned worship. And I'll be darned if I'm going to pull my kid back when she's all in. But you can tell people are like. Like, why is your child out of the pew at the front in front of the pipe organ? And I'm like, because she learned it from Aunt Chris.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

So it's.

[Christine Cain]

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[Lisa Harper]

But you do see that influence that people. I'm not saying everybody. It's in their. Their honest nature to be that demonstrative. But you do see people who go, oh, wow. It kind of gives them permission.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Oh, totally.

[Lisa Harper]

To be. To really engage their heart, not just their mind in worship. So it's lovely. I love what she said.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Freedom to worship. The first time I felt that was actually sitting Lauren Dagel at the Dove Awards. When I was probably 16 or 17, I had never seen someone worship so freely. And she wasn't on stage, she was sitting in front of me. But it was the way she just worshiped through the whole thing and it was just in so much freedom. And I was like, I want to worship God that freely. And Chris, you'll love this because you always talk, talk about my Church of Christ roots. So my grandparents, you know, have been Church of Christ their whole life. And that typically in most tradition is not very wiggly. You gotta just stand still. And it was so sweet because my grandparents were both in a memory care center. And it's just been a really hard stage of life. And the other day a choir was coming to the nursing home center and MLK was going to get to go and I was like, oh, I'd love to go do that with her. So I went with her and every other person there was very still and very quiet. Mmlk was singing at the top of her lungs. She was clapping, she was tapping her foot and she was not even singing the right words. And she knew it. She said, I'm just making them up, but I'm loving it.

[Christine Cain]

She's Pentecostal for sure. So this is so funny. She admitted it.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

So we're wheeling her back. She's in a wheelchair. We're wheeling her back to the room with Pepa Phil. Cuz he's. He wasn't in a good enough state to go. And she said, phil, I am filled with the Holy Spirit.

[Christine Cain]

She said, I just experienced.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

She said I was the only Pentecostal in there.

[Christine Cain]

That's awesome.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

So yes, that's awesome. Worship. And man, when you get to that stage of life, she's like, I'm not holding back. I am. And every word she was singing, she would just cry. And I realized because it hit home for her, you know, it was words about where she's going. It was beautiful.

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[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Today I want to talk a lot about women in ministry and I want this to be an encouragement to women in ministry. You guys have been such an encouragement to me and I tell you all this all the time, but not only do I learn from y' all up close, but I listen to Yalls. Whether it's your podcast or I've been listening a lot to. I think it's with TBN when y' all do like the round table and all the women talk better to. I listen to that like so much in the mornings now when I do my makeup and it has become like my favorite little morning routine. So great you get. It's like being mentored by y' all every morning. It's awesome. And so I want to. I want girls to be encouraged as they listen to this. Women to be encouraged. And obviously, like you just mentioned, both of you speak at very large conferences and events and all over the world. But what was each of your first ministry jobs, and how did you get started in ministry?

[Lisa Harper]

You go ahead, Chris.

[Christine Cain]

Now you go, well, for me, it was before there was even a youth center. So what happened was the youth pastor said I had just sort of gotten saved and said, we're going to have a church cleanup day. And because I had gotten saved and felt called. So when I say I felt called, I didn't feel called to do what I'm doing now. I felt called to Jesus. Like, as in, you got my life 100% nothing. So this is how it equated in my head. I felt what I now would call a call. The next thing that happens is we're having a church cleanup day. So because I heard a call, I'm like, well, that's what you do. I'm going to the church. I go to the church cleanup day. I was the only one from the youth group that went. I was like 22, but I was the only one that went in our young adults ministry. And the youth pastor, the assistant youth pastor said, you're Christine Kariopoulos, aren't you? That was my name, obviously. A nice Greek Windex name. So he goes, you were Christine. You're Christine Kariophil. And I said, yes. And he said, you're studying psychology. And I went, not really. I'm doing English and economic history with a minor. He goes, oh, that's okay. I just got a grant for a youth center, and I don't know what a youth center this is, literally, as the Lord is my witness, and I don't know what a youth center is, but I'm going on a missionary trip to Africa with our senior pastor for six weeks. So when I come back, I'd love a youth center. So could you go and find that? Literally. And he threw me a page. This is. You don't even know what that is because I am as old as the dinosaur. So I ran the earth, then threw me a pager, and this was kind of like, you know, you call, hi, Hills District Youth Services. Christine there? No, I'm sorry, she's not in the office. But that's a lie. There was no office.

[Lisa Harper]

And then it's like.

[Christine Cain]

And then they would beep, and I would have to go on a payphone, which back then you had to dial, and it was connected to a wall and go, oh, hi, it's Chris. I just got in the office and I lied. There was no office. So the thing is, that was my whole call to ministry, and I had never prayed at that point about, lord, I want to serve young people, or I just went, lord, I want you. The very next week there's a cleanup. From the cleanup day came and start a youth center, which then we helped at risk kids. No one thought that was cool. That was not. And I'm in Australia. There's no Christian subculture. We were going into schools. Nobody was doing that. Nobody thought that was. This is late 80s, early 90s. And were you born? Were you born, Sadie?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I was born in 97. So okay, you weren't born then.

[Christine Cain]

So you were not yet born when this is happening. And so very secular. So people go, where did you learn to preach? You know, did you go on a conference circuit? I'm like, honey, I went to state high schools in Australia. That's right. Where if you said you had an altar call, you couldn't say, I see that hand. It would be I see that finger. Because that's what people were giving you. There was no blessing. Nobody had to listen to you. And I'm figuring now they go, how do you speak? Like a passion. I'm going, honey, speaking at a Christian conference compared to Australian high schools with unsaved kids. But I didn't know I was being trained. I was just serving the Lord and telling them. And I didn't know when I started the youth center that in 30 years from then I'd be running one of the largest anti trafficking organizations in the world and that God was using everything.

[Lisa Harper]

That's right.

[Christine Cain]

Back then I thought I'd arrived. That was it. I would go and drive. I'd get like an invitation because of the youth center.

[Lisa Harper]

Center.

[Christine Cain]

This is no joke to speak. If it was 20 kids. And you'd have to drive yourself, drive yourself with your own gas, like eight hours into country towns in the. Everyone would tell you in Australia. I know every country town in Australia. I've been to every redneck town. They would know me. And speaking to 20 kids, 15 kids being put up in Christian people's homes, you know, with like a tiny bunk bed with, you know, I could just, I could. And this was not one day, one year. I'm talking 14 years of this stuff and never like a paycheck. Like we would work a job so that you could go and do this sort of stuff in ministry. I didn't know there was a career. Remember, there's no Internet, there's no social media. Wow, I'm in secular country. I didn't know there was like you, you know, you have a Christian sort of like, I just Started serving right where I was. People would get saved whether I had a microphone in my hand or not. Like, no one. Eventually they shoved a microphone in my hand and put me on a stage to do exactly what I was doing and would be doing all the time. So, you know, that was kind of my deal.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

This is so interesting because nowadays, obviously we have social media, and I think it's very interesting when it comes to ministry and social media, because when people think about, like, doing ministry, they're thinking about doing what they've seen on social media. You know, it's like, okay, I want to do ministry because I want to do that. But then it's like the struggle of how to do that because no one just started doing that. Everyone had a unique path and a calling to get to doing that. But I think that's why so many people feel discouraged because they go, okay, I want to do ministry. And ministry, to me, looks like this that I've seen on social media. And how do I do that? And you didn't even have. You didn't even have anything like that to see or anything like that to reference. And it's so interesting you started this with talking about calling because I rarely write down, like, questions I'm going to ask. But literally my second question was, did you feel like this was your calling when you started and what that. What made that clear? And I wanted to ask that question because I do feel like the whole idea of, like, calling gets really confusing to people when it comes to ministry. Am I called to ministry? But I think the confusion from my perspective comes from that calling has a specific look to it and not just like a calling to serve God. So that was interesting how you broke that down and really interesting that that was something I felt we needed to talk about because I do think social media has changed us so, so much. Elisa, I'll get to you in just a second. But you said 14 years of doing stuff like that. What was the shift like, what happened in your life that took it from stuff like that to looking more. A little bit more like it does now, speaking on larger stages in that it was.

[Christine Cain]

And again, I think what you're tapping onto, and you're gonna hear this from Lisa's story too, is there is a real difference between a calling and a career. And what social media has done as presented what we would perceive as a Christian career. See, I was not when I was called to Christ. Okay, so take all socials, Internet. There's nothing. So, no, I didn't have social media. But I had a prayer closet. So that's how you heard from God about what to do and what was gonna happen. And we were, when I was and we went on altar calls, you know, you snot Jesus. I thought I was gonna like be a martyr, you know, I was schooled by martyrs and missionaries, not celebrities. So you didn't think it was, you know, you thought, okay, my highest call. I mean, as weird as people think that is, I'm 59, have raised two kids by the grace of God, been married 29 years. That heart of a missionary heart, I'm all in for Jesus. That hasn't changed.

[Lisa Harper]

That hasn't.

[Christine Cain]

Now the structure, the infrastructure to facilitate doing a global anti trafficking ministry or doing propel women, that has shifted, but it's not. The heart and passion is no different and the calling on the inside of me is no different. So it's not that it really shifted in that more structure had to come around things to facilitate what God is already doing. So it's not like I was going to. I want to do this and I want God to bless it. It's like, oh my gosh, God's doing this and it's a bit out of control. So we need to put some str. A little bit like in the book of Acts. I mean, you know, not quite like that, but suddenly they're like, okay, we need to have a Jerusalem council here. And now we need to set up some churches with some cause. Look what the Holy Spirit's doing, right? I have to say to you, to this day, as we're recording this in 2025, pretty much that's how it still runs for me. People would love to look at my strategic plan. And I laugh and I go, pretty much I'm catching up to God. So you see all this whiz, bang, whistles and bells. I wouldn't be looking at social media to try to get it from me because I'm in a prayer closet. And then we're like, okay, with wisdom and guidance, put an infrastructure around what God is doing. Because the structure doesn't dictate the call. The call facilitates the structure.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That is great. Wow, that is such good advice. That is so good. I have so many thoughts. But Lisa, I want to hear your story because Chris said there's some similarities in that.

[Lisa Harper]

Yeah.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

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[Lisa Harper]

Well, a lot of similarities I'll, I'll try to truncate but like Chris, it was, I mean Sadie, you made a conscious decision when Chris and I were in our twenties to be poor if you were to be administrated. Because unless you as a female, there was no, there were a few outliers. Kay Arthur, who just passed Joyce was just starting to do some things but, but as a female there was, there was no lane for female in vocational ministry. Yeah, so I always knew I'd do something else. I had a double major in undergrad and I was going into broadcast journalism. But in our town there was a. We, we had this church about 30 minutes away and there was no guy to lead a Bible study in our town. And so I was just the default. They were like she tells stories, loves the Bible. And I was still in high school but started leading this Bible study. About 150 kids and students were getting saved. But I never thought that would be a vocation. But because I got to know some of the local leaders When I graduated from college and I'd been involved in summer camps like your family, I love camping. I got offered a job. I already had another job, living with two sorority sisters. We graduated, I had my heart set on a black BMW, living with shorty sisters, having a blast. And they asked me if I would consider going on full time staff with this youth ministry. And I was like, ooh, gross. I do not want to be poor and wear a turtleneck. And that's what I thought it was because I thought, well, I'll always do Bible studies out of our apartment. And. And so I tried to sabotage my ministry interview because I knew the guy didn't believe in women in ministry. He was just having to bend to a, to a federal board. And I tried to blow the interview. And I remember when he asked me, why do you want this after all these series of interviews, I had been reading C.S. lewis. I was talking smack. I was just like, well, I don't want it. I want the sovereignty of God.

[Christine Cain]

I didn't know what that meant.

[Lisa Harper]

I just didn't want to be poor and wear a turtleneck. And so I get this job trying to not get it, because they were just desperate, desperate for a wordy girl who had moved to Nashville, Tennessee. And the very first time I spoke, I was really excited about getting to tell stories about Jesus that I couldn't believe there was even a job for that. But the very first time I spoke, it was like, Chris, it was a huge metro high school, downtown Nashville. And the principal had gone on, can you imagine a public school principal doing this today? He had gone on the intercom and said, if you want to get out of class, class, this lady's gonna have a Bible study in the gym. So like 1500 kids come to the gym not remotely interested in Jesus, just to get out of class. And there was, I can still remember city like it was yesterday. They had like a stage. The gym was kind of slash auditorium. They had a stage. They had one music stand. Not a podium, a music stand. You just little wobbly black music stand. And all these kids, I mean, there's like different rival gangs. I mean, this is a pretty rough part of Nashville. And I thought, oh, oh, Jesus, help me, help me, help me. I mean, I'd led Bible studies, but with like high school kids who wanted to come. And so I was like, oh, I mean, this is gonna be terrible if they're gonna throw things at me. I walk up, I didn't know I had this. But when I get really nervous, there's A nerve that runs up the back of my hamstring that will cause my whole leg to shake. And consequently, what is above my leg.

[Christine Cain]

Which is pokes out.

[Lisa Harper]

And so I go up and I start to pray. Cause the I could think was, I'll pray and then maybe they'll quit screaming, you know, and it won't be so wild. Well, when I start to pray, my bottom is quivering so violently that made my whole voice shake. So all these kids think, who is the big belchick who's crying? Well, I wasn't crying. It's just my voice was vibrating. And I realized in the prayer, I've got their attention for 30 seconds. And so I'm going to make this 30 seconds count. I mean, I dove into some kind of wild story. I don't know how in the world that segued into the gosp, but, I mean, it was not. There was no strategy. There was no board. It was. You kind of got thrown into the deep weeds. But I loved Jesus. And it was just like Chris. It was, if I have enough gas money to get to the next youth conference, I can't believe I get to talk to people about this Jesus who loved me. So it's not that we were better than anybody today. It's that if you didn't have faith, there was no. There was no template. You just prayed and you ran hard toward Jesus. And so I think, you know, when we think calling, I agree with Chris. We tend to associate with both career and platform. My favorite definition of calling. You know how I love all the old dead guys. This one's only recently dead. But Friedrich Buechner says this. He says our calling. Actually, I think it's Francis Schaeffer. It's either Friedrich or Francis. It's an F guy. But he says our calling is where our deep gladness and the world's deep hunger intersect.

[Christine Cain]

Yeah. Wow.

[Lisa Harper]

So every single saint who's listening to you right now, and people who just are like, I love Sadie, but I don't know so much about Jesus. They all have a calling. And so your calling might be to be a radiant Christ follower, as a paralegal, or as an elementary school teacher, or as in the medical field field, or it might be vocational ministry. But all of us, if you have put your hope in Jesus Christ, we're ambassadors of the new covenant. So don't get swayed by what you see on social media. There's some great saints on social media, but what you're seeing is more platform. And, you know, Chris, one of my favorite Things I've ever heard. Chris says. She says, if the light on you is brighter than the light in you, it will kill you. You. And so we're all called. We're all called to be carriers, not just consumers of the gospel. And you do that wherever he. Wherever he's gifted you and wherever you are that season.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's great. Elise, I don't know if you know this, but right after I got off Dancing with the Stars and I came to Passion Conference just to attend was the first time I ever heard Christine say that. And it, like, struck a chord in me. Like, whoa. Because that's how I felt. I felt like the light was destroying me, you know, I felt like that spotlight was kind of taking me out. And I was like, okay, I think I just need to reposture my heart, you know, and it's so cool over the years to see what God has done. But I love talking about this because I do think people sometimes, you know, have followed along my journey and they've seen ELO grow and they've seen the podcast grow and all these different things. And I've had so many people come up to me and say, I want to do what you do. I want to do what you do. How do I get started? And there's. There's no step by step. There's no system. There's no. It was so the Lord, and so the way that he kind of just guided my steps and different things. And then also for me, I. And this is like, when you get into the financial side of things, how y' all were saying, I didn't do this to make money. For me, going from more of being, like, social media known and from, you know, TV known to ministry, I was thinking, okay, I'm about to lose the followers. I'm going to probably lose making the income. Like, I was thinking, this is more going to be a loss. And then I didn't realize, like, how God was going to grow this new platform and getting to speak about Jesus into people's life. And it grew the following. But that did not mean that it brought in money. And in fact, like, the ministry things we fund out of our heart because we believe in them. And sometimes. And I've had. Had people say this to me, oh, I tried to start this. And like, I didn't make any money. I had to stop. And I'm like, well, that doesn't mean that God isn't for you. And it. I mean, for me, if I didn't have this other side of it, I wouldn't be able to do that either, you know? And so I do think you have to be honest about those things and share those things, because, again, when you look at social media, you're like, oh, that makes money. It's like, no. If that's why you're in this, you will tap out fast, because that cannot be your heart for ministry or why you're stepping into it at all.

[Lisa Harper]

And I feel like you'll tap out of peace really fast.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Totally.

[Lisa Harper]

Because when you realize and you see that tension all throughout Scripture between money and ministry, that's not to say a worker isn't worthy of his hire. That's biblical, too. But if your motivation is platform and money, even if you get both, you'll lose your heart if that's your motivation. And so there is wisdom in moving forward and what God's called you to. But if you're basing on. On system instead of spirit, you're to lose yourself in the process. I mean, Nashville, there's so much vocational ministry in Nashville, and I often say people who do it for a living aren't necessarily the best and the brightest. We have financial incentive. So don't you dare think somebody who is paid to talk about Jesus has any more legitimacy than somebody who's leading a small group after they work 50 hours a week and pouring themselves into teenagers as a volunteer. But I'm meet. I mean, Sadie, you've seen this. Chris, we've talked about this so many times. I meet so many saints in Nashville who. It's like they've just lost their joy because they thought it would be different. And I'm like, no, you're still going to see some things that break your heart, even though it's flying Christian flag, because if it's making money, a publishing company, whatever it is, you're going to see some things that you go, oh, I thought this was going to be, you know, the Acts church. And you go, shoot, I feel like that person sold out. Or I feel like this is all about platform, and we've kind of lost a gospel in it. So I'm like, if. If you do not keep your heart clean, I don't care how big your platform is, you'll. You'll lose your heart, and you'll wind up losing your intimacy with Jesus while you're satisfied telling them.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

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[Christine Cain]

I think it also comes back to whether you really understand what ministry is. I was thinking, even as we're talking and Lisa and I talk about this a lot, Sadie, this is possibly one of the only places on earth we could be having this conversation. I couldn't be having this conversation with my sisters in Iran or my sisters in. There's a lot of countries where you would die for being a Christian. You're not considering whether you can make a career out of being a Christian. So that's where you have to have the litmus test of. In most of the world, including the country I came from, including most of Europe, Asia, Africa, the Middle east, there is this conversation. No one would actually know what we're talking. I could not have this conversation. They'd be like, you know, we've got 821 offices all over the world. We've planted churches all over the world. So when I'm there and anything I do here that might be visible, all of that helps to do all the work that nobody sees, you know, in the back of nowhere. I couldn't even have these conferences. They'd be like, what are you talking about? They all work as tent makers and they're all like, all of them. I could name on a hand in entire countries how many people maybe would be able to be what we would call full time vocational ministry. And if they were scrolling on their phones to look at American ministers and thought that's what the favor of God is, then they would feel like losers. But I have a feeling a lot of them are going to have a bigger reward than most of us. And so you have to remember all of that and you have to, to have people around you that you know that are accountable. I know your, your mom will. I mean, your family is like, you're in it for the right reasons. It really doesn't matter what any. At the end of the day, you have to know what God knows about you matters a lot more than what people think about you.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

So true.

[Christine Cain]

That's really what it comes down to.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

This is so good. This is so much wisdom and this is why I wanted to have this conversation. Because I've just had so many conversations with people my age who tried to get into ministry or are currently, currently trying to start their own ministry and they're facing so much discouragement based off of a million different reasons. And I feel some part of me has felt like, oh gosh, did I paint this picture that this was the way it was going to be? Like, did I influence you to step into that? Not being honest about the hard road or the specific road or the unique calling or the unique pathways that took me that way? Because everyone's is going to look different and I wanted to be like honest about some of those things because I mean, for me, I moved to Nashville and it quickly got an eye opening experience, unfortunately to the fact that not everybody is in it for the right reasons. And that's not like, I'm not saying that about people that most people love and respect and follow. You guys are obviously absolutely incredible having you on the podcast because I respect y' all and love y' all and seen you up close and afar. But there are things in, within the industry of it that certainly are twisted and that do get your heart off the right beat if you are, if you don't have your intimacy with Jesus and you don't have spiritual discernment. And I was so young and I was just like, whoa. And that was part of my reason for moving back home. And I didn't know if my ministry, as in like elo, would be able to continue to grow or we do a conference or we do anything when I move back home, because Nashville would have been the place to do it. Like, you know, logistically, way smarter to do it in Nashville. But I needed to keep my heart pure and so I moved back here. And then by the grace of God, he allowed a way to continue to actually still do those things, like a conference and like these different things right where I live now. That comes with a million logistical hurdles that, no, you don't talk about and you don't share and you. Because why would I, you know, that's. That's for us to figure out. That's what God's given us to figure out and to. And to do.

[Christine Cain]

Exactly.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

But I do think again, again, it's like you have this perspective, but if your heart is not in it for the right reasons, if your heart is not pure before the Lord, you will burn out so, so fast. And it will. Yeah.

[Christine Cain]

Can I just say, not only will you burn out, anything that you do that is not of the Lord is going to burn up on that day anyway. We don't talk enough about this fruit is what the Lord measures. And so we have to teach a generation. It's not social media numbers. It's not. And they'll say, that's because you've all got a lot. Okay, I hope you have ears to hear what I'm saying, whether, you know, because the fact is that unless the Lord builds the house, those that build it labor in vain. That's what he says. So you can hustle and do all the things. And I don't even listen to those things. Like, I'm a 59 year old. I don't even have tattoos. I can't sing. I'm like a nerd. I'm like, so. So it is God. I'm telling it is God. My team laughs at me. I'm so technologically illiterate because. But I'm called. And so it's the spirit of God. And you know, even Paul, when he was in acts, wanting to, you know, go to different places, there's times where he sort of planned, I want to go into Asia. And the Lord's like, no, you're going into Macedonia. No, you're not going this, by the way, you're going to have a detour on Malta and there's going to be a storm and a shipwreck and then you're going to go to Rome. Oh, by the way. To die. That's what it's for. Like, it's like, it's like not to build a career. You're going to be beaten. And so somehow, in the midst of the world in which we live. And again, this is a very America centric conversation that we're having, because you can't. You can't have it in most places of the world because it's not the reality of 90 plus percent of believers on planet Earth. So the minute you start thinking of a ministry as a career, rather than, I'm dead unto self, I've got to crucify my flesh, deny myself, take up my cross, follow him. Nothing you do will have any. You know, I'm trying not to use Pentecostal language. It won't have any oil, it won't have any anointing. It won't bring change. It might. I always say this, a gift. If you're gifted and think, oh, I could do that. I'm watching Sadie. Let me just scan this. Cause I could do this. I'm gifted in this way. And you're trying to work out where your gift will take you. A gift can fill a room. A gift can get followers. A gift can get book contracts. A gift can get you on a speaking circuit circuit. But a gift can't set anyone free. The anointing breaks the yokes and chains. So why do people come 40 years later and they're still listening to Lisa or 40 years later still listening to. Like, why would you. We're not cool. We might be funny, but we're not cool. Because ultimately the Lord's anointed what we say, and people want to get set free. And I'm not playing. I'm not doing things to go, oh, what's the best marketing thing to do? I'm like, in a prayer closet going, God, what do you want to say? And you can check this with anybody. Even the people that my publishers, I think they would hope. I wish I was the other way. Cause they're like, I remember one day, they're like, can we survey everyone just to see maybe what they would want you to write about? I went the day I'm asking the people what they want me to write about, as opposed to asking God what he wants me to tell the people I need to get. Getting your job. I'm in the wrong. This is not. And I just remember everyone was like, I said, I'm not playing. This is not a game to me. Yes, we use all modern technology. Of course I do. We live in 2025. No point using 1950s technology. But that's not the. The Marketing plan is purely a structure to facilitate what God's doing. I've sold out to it. I all this is my total prayers for anything, for anything that gets. My team will tell you anyway. It's just like Lord, whoever is supposed to get this in their hand, whoever you want to help through whatever it might be, my speaking, my writing, my whatever, whoever hands it needs to get into so that they will find freedom or get closer to you or deliverance or whatever it might be. That's it. That's my prayer. And then I'm like, I'm getting about then doing what I'm doing. Like I'm like, you know, the next thing, I don't know. Lisa, what would you say?

[Lisa Harper]

Well, I was just thinking, practically speaking, because you know Sadie, I so appreciate your humility and authenticity. I was reading a book about millennials gen zers and what is it? Gin Alpha Alpha. I can never keep it all straight because I'm Jen old. But it was this. It was based on some recent research and it was saying that pretty much everybody under 44ish, they legitimately distrust institution because they've seen us promote institution, whether that be an organization, even a church over relationship. And of course as Christians, the primary relationship is Jesus. So if you're spending a lot of time with Jesus, you should begin to look like Jesus. There should be a christophormic aspect to your life. And we have such a promotion of brand and I'm not saying commercial success is bad. I mean, I'm trying to learn the force fright dance with Missy right now. I think that's awesome. I think it's epic that God has given Brandon for this season some entree into places where you don't usually have worship songs. I think that's awesome. I really, really love that. But my life has has kind of two guardrails that keep me running toward Jesus. One is gratitude. Paul makes it clear that he uses the weak and the foolish. So I don't think for one moment I earn any invitation that comes in. I'm quite frankly shocked at my age that I get to come to Ello. I'm like, oh my heavens, they think you got Lisa Terkeurst, not Lisa Harper. They're probably gonna throw tomatoes when I get up. And I'm being a little scared silly. I don't mean to sound self deprecating, but I am so grateful for what God allows me to do. From when I hoped I had enough gas money to now they actually pick me up and I go to a hotel. Also I have Huge accountability in my life. My closest friends, dude, are not vocational ministers. And they love me. They don't care what conference I've come from. If I come in and hang out with them and I'm a jerk or I'm impatient or they see me not being kind and misfortune, see, they will. They will jerk a knot in my tail. So they also are Barnabas and they encourage me. But that accountability and gratitude, it's kind of like the velvet bumpers at the bowling alley that keeps. Keeps little kids balls in the lane. For me to stay in the lane of being pure, running hard toward Jesus, I've got to have gratitude and I've got to have accountability and affirmation. And of course, church, the word of all that is a given. But I would say for those saints who love you, you have been so influenced by God's favor on your life, your authenticity, your ministry, but who are thinking, why didn't it happen for me, I'd say, before you start taking apart your strategy, would you be honest enough to take an inventory of your heart and go, where is my grateful meter right now? Am I grateful for where God has me if it's just alone in an apartment or if I'm not talking to adults, I'm changing diapers all day? Am I grateful for this season because you're no less a minister if you're a Christ follower in that season than you are if you have a platform. And then I would say, check your relationships. Do you have people who are pouring into you who love Jesus and who are not going to benefit from you having a platform? And if you don't have those two, start there before you get the brand strategy.

[Christine Cain]

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[Sadie Robertson Huff]

So important, y'.

[Christine Cain]

All.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That was so rich. I'm just so thankful for every word you shared because there's so many words that I have needed to hear over the years. And I'm so encouraged by. And you know, I love how we were talking about everyone asks, like, what's the system? And you're like, no, it has to be led by the spirit. And I was thinking about how you can even be spirit Led and then when you get into it, people try to put the system on you because that's what they, that's work. And when you brought up the book publishing thing, I, I remember one time, and I love my publishing company, this is not a knock. This is just how system works sometimes.

[Lisa Harper]

Sure.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I felt really passionate about this book that I wrote. I was really excited about, about it, sent it in. Of course, you know, you're going to get edits and it's going to be different than what you, you know, you're like, oh, that's hard to hear read. But then it makes it better and you collaborate and you make something beautiful. Well, this one particular book I sent in and I got back and they had changed the whole title of the book to be very much so a buzzword. And I was like, that's not the book I wrote. And they were like, no, but this, this is obviously going to do better. You know, this is going to sell. And I'm like, but that's not what I wrote about. And they're like, but you know, it's just more of a marketing, like this is gonna sell. And I just remember saying, I, I can't put that on the book because people actually need that and people, people need a book on that and maybe I will write a book on that one day. But I didn't write this book to be that. And I don't want to promise them something they're not going to get right when that's actually something so needed. And so we ended up having a lot of back and forth. We ended up not putting that as title. The book actually did great and it was awesome for what it was. And then later actually went back and wrote the book with the title that they liked so much because I was like, I want to, I want to hear from the Lord. I'm not just putting this out because it's going to sell you. I want to put this out because people are coming to it to seek wisdom, to seek advice, to grow in the relationship with the Lord and you have to like honor that. So even if you're being spirit led, like the systems are going to come and try to be put on, you have to like remember, remain again with that intimacy with the Lord and the pure heartedness. One thing I want to ask you all, and I know like, there's just been so many rich things, but one question I have to ask, and this is more of the, the question of, you know, obviously you guys are in ministry, I'm in ministry, but people Ask all the time. People comment on podcasts all the time. People comment on every single preaching video I've ever done. Is it okay for women to be doing what you're doing? Is it okay for women to preach in the church? Because the Bible says women should be silent in the church. And to be honest, I really wrestle with that at first. Lisa, I resonated so much with you, saying you tried to actually, like, mess up your interview. I totally did that. The first conference we ever did, I did not speak at. It was an ELO conference. People came, and I did skits and monologues, because in my tradition, you could do skits as women. You could do monologues, but you could not preach. And so that's what I did. You can probably find it somewhere on YouTube. And I wrestled. I didn't know if. Is this right? Is this what God's obviously opening the door. This is something that I feel passionate about. I've always led Bible studies, but is it okay in this context? And I had to really wrestle that out. I talked to the Lord about it. I had mentors who helped me study the Bible and understand context to get to the place where I felt confident in what I was doing. And then once I felt confident in what I was doing, man, it was just, like, such a game changer, obviously. And so I just feel like there are so many people out there who maybe are coming to this and listening from the ears of, like, I've always thought it was wrong. Or maybe there are wrestling with, like, okay, the Bible does say this, but what does that actually mean? And how is it okay for you to do what you're doing? How'd you come to the confidence in that? Can y' all break that down a little bit?

[Christine Cain]

I'm gonna let Lisa do it theologically. Cause she will. And I will just use the. I agree with you. I wrestled in the beginning, because, of course, and Lisa and I are of another generation where it was even less common. And, you know, in my sort of simplicity, then I was like, I'm not prepared to go to hell just because I want to do. You know? Like, that was like, I. No way. And I don't want to cause anyone else to stumble. There's so many ways I could serve God, you know? Like, I was like, it didn't matter to me in meaning other than obedience. Then I couldn't reconcile, like, God's not some, like, cosmic weirdo up there dangling a carrot, going, oh, I gave you all these gifts and talents, and I called you in A particular. And then you're going to spend your entire life on the earth not being able to do it. Like it's just like what kind of cosmic weirdo would he have to be to do that? So. And Lisa will talk us through theologically because that would have been the steps then that I went through to go. That's kind of where I landed. And then I've spent most of my life not at all arguing for it. You don't see me ever engaging on any discussions. What I'm doing more and have attempted to do really through my four decades is not go sort of permission required. But I'm just like, permission is assumed. And now I'm just to going to model and I'm going to show you a whole lot of other women that are just doing it and as people are on their journey. But there is great biblical theological justification for it. And Dr. Lisa will now tell us.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's great, Chris. I love it. It's so good.

[Lisa Harper]

Actually, Sadie, I started my field of doctoral studies largely because of how Chris had helped me with this issue. Because I grew up in a stream of the church where women were absolutely not allowed to teach and preach based on two parents passages in the New Testament where a plain reading of the text, you just read the black white and there's no red there because Jesus is in glory by that part. When Paul's writing, Paul says a women, a woman should be quiet and learn in full submission. There's another place where he says I do not permit a woman to teach. So there are two passages, some people call those the clobber text. And if you just take, which people tend to do in our social media society, they take one verse out out of context, sling it on Instagram and it's truth forever. I need to qualify this by saying this is kind of like asking how to have a baby when you just played spin the bottle for the first time. Because it's very, very nuanced and it's very, very layered. And you do have to study the socio historical context of what Paul was saying in two instances because if you look at other things Paul said, Paul said. The greatest apostles I've ever been around are Andronicus and Junia, who is a woman. Romans 16. He gives Phoebe the letter to Romans to deliver to the Romans, which most Christians, modern Christians would consider Romans, the theological hub of our wheel. Well back in that era most people were illiterate. So you didn't just deliver a letter like a postal carrier, you read the letter out loud to the intended audience. And then the rhetorical style of the day was like a seminary professor. You would argue points in the letter. You would defend theological. Theological points. So. So Phoebe is the very first commentarian, if you will, on the Book of Romans. He had a lot of other men who were in the churches he planted who are part of his posse. And he sent a woman. You have Priscilla discipling Apollos, who is the second John the Baptist. You have three women, Luke chapter eight, in Jesus's entourage. So if you. You have Deborah, a king in Israel, when there's 3 million men to choose from, you have Huldah, a female prophetess in the Old Testament, who is the one who ratifies. This is indeed the Word of God after they had lost the Word of God. So it's not just an exception here and there for women to read. It is all throughout biblical narrative. So if you don't understand those two instances where Paul said, in an area where women were. Were married at 12 or 13, marrying men in their 30s, all of a sudden, for the first time, they can go in and hear Torah, the Hebrew scriptures being taught, they don't have the maturity to sit there silently. The guys have grown up listening to Torah, and so they were causing a ruckus. They're probably on their phones Instagramming. And Paul's like, shh, y' all need to learn the operative verb. And that is learn. Because that's in an era of history, women aren't even allowed to learn. They're not allowed to read Torah. And he's saying, you can learn, learn, but do it appropriately. And so you've really got to take a deep dive into these two very short passages that people just then universally apply over women, because that was not the way Paul intended it. I would strongly encourage your listeners who've been beat up for wanting to share what's in their heart and in God's Word, and they're beat up because they have ovaries to read. Blue parakeet by Dr. Scott McKnight, one of the foremost New Testament scholars we have living today. It's not just about women teaching the Bible. It really is about understanding the context of Scripture. Because if you don't understand original audience, you can take things. That's why people still wrestle with rattlesnakes in some rural churches. It's not because they're stupid. It's because they don't understand. When Jesus talked about wrestling with vipers, the Greek word he's using there is evil spirits, not a literal rattlesnake. So a lot of people are sincerely believing what they. They read in out of context, in black, white, in the Bible and go, well, this is what that means. And it's like, well. And when they go, well, the Bible says, I'm like, actually, that's not what the Bible says. That's a black and white English understanding. You've got to dive a little deeper. I would encourage him to get Dr. Lynn Kohick's commentary on Ephesians because we could talk about this for hours. I'm finishing a doctorate on the theological anthropology of women. I am uber conservative theologically because I believe the Bible's true from COVID to cover. I also think it's incumbent for us, when you get to a very deep issue, be careful to apply things in a way that it oppresses someone else. That's not the overarching theme of Scripture. The overarching theme of Scripture is redemption, not oppression. So if you find yourself using a passage to bully someone else or oppress someone else, you probably have it out of context. That being said, we've got a whole bunch of women who are leading from a wound in our era, Sadie. And I should apologize to you and women your age, because you've got women, Chris is in my age, who are mad because of the way we've been oppressed. And there's a massive difference between being enraged, aged, or being empowered. So I would also encourage the women that, that are listening to you. If you hear a woman who's mad and comes across as I hate men, that's not healthy.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's great. Wow, that was so beautifully said and I'm so thankful you gave some references for us to go and read on and study on. Lastly, I know we're short on time, but this has been so wonderful. And Chris, I want to ask you because we recently talked about this on stage, actually, Lisa so lovingly said, sadie, why are you crying in front of, you know, a thousand women? Great. Thank you for that.

[Lisa Harper]

So sorry, baby.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Actually, I love that you did. I really, truly do. But it was because Chris said something that really got me. And I never seen you share how hard sometimes ministry can get and how you did feel in a moment you wanted to just tap out, you know, cuz things can get hard. But you didn't, obviously. And you haven't. And you mentioned earlier, people have listened to y' all for 40 years. I mean, the, the longevity that y' all have had is so beautiful. I know there are a lot of people who, whose hearts are weary, you know, we don't live in other countries, obviously, that it's so much harder when it really is life and death. But there are hard aspects that wear people down and wear people out and commentary in and of itself and what people have said and defending your. All the different things that make it exhausting at times in ministry. Can you just speak to the person who feels tired? How do you. How do you stick it out for the long run?

[Christine Cain]

Yeah, I think that's great, you know, and also you've got to. It's the same devil in every country. So it's like, it's different. He uses different techniques. So, you know, yes, we live in the West. We have technology, we have a lot of material possessions and luxury. It comes. There's different stresses that we confront. It's the same day where his ultimate goal is to take us all out. That's what you have to remember. And there's a reason why. When Paul wrote to the Galatians, he says, do not grow weary in doing good, for in due season you'll reap because you can grow weary. That's the whole point. It's just if the devil cannot take you out, he will try to wear you out. And that's what he does with most of people, is like, if he can't take you out through sin, you're not going to go have an affair, you're not going to steal the money. He will wear you out. And that's what we have to be very mindful of. And so I'm not surprised there'd be people listening to this that are feeling like worn out, weary, heavy laden. And that's why Jesus says, you know what? You need to come to me. And there is no easy way. It's like this coming to him and understanding that moment. And you do get. If you're intentional, you do get better at this with age, but you have to have intentionality, you know, especially when you're young and lots of your listeners are kind of young and man, you're hustling. And there's a degree of that, of course, that is zeal and there's passion and all of those things. And we can't always monitor our hearts. And sometimes we're just hoping we're doing it with the right intention and, you know, hopefully the Lord will sort it all out. But. And I'd rather you have a little bit more hustle than be like nothing and dead down. I'm just saying that. Okay, So I want you to hear that from me. Go for I'd Rather have to pull you back a bit.

[Lisa Harper]

That's right.

[Christine Cain]

And try to get you kick started.

[Lisa Harper]

So please don't ask for a sabbatical until you're at least in your 30s.

[Christine Cain]

So let's think that. But a lot of it is the writer to the Hebrew says, you will have need of endurance. And your generation has got to learn this because you don't build an endurance muscle overnight. Just like you don't go to the gym. You can't pick up 50 pounds, you know, 50 pound hand weight. You're going to start with 5 pounds, go to 10 pounds, 20. So you have to do that. And so you have to see life. There are trials, there are tests. And just like if you're at school, if you don't pass your test, you're going to take it again. A lot of people's frustration is because they refuse to pass the test. They're blaming everyone, man. We're blaming the system, we're blaming the institution. We're blaming. And the Lord's like, no, no, actually trying to build your endurance muscle here and try to strengthen you. And you got to pass this test because you don't know what's coming, coming down the road and what's coming down the road. Five years from now, the giants are even bigger. And if you haven't built this faith muscle here, you're going to be taken out God knows where you're going to be taken out down there. So the enemy will make you discourage. And mostly for people, us with the comforts that we have, it's mostly discouragement or disappointment or betrayal or, you know, something doesn't go our way. And so that's where he would just keep egging that, like, you know, making you. And yet you, when you have this perspective that I'm in it, number one, I'm in it for the long haul. I'm not like, quitting is not an option. So in the back of my head is that. And even when I had that really, really in 2018, man, I was hit on every side. It was just bombarded. Like, you know, I couldn't come up for breath. And it wasn't even that I couldn't keep going. I was strong enough. You know, I always think of your husband in the natural. So in the spirit, it's like, you know, I had that, but I just, you know, you just go. I don't know if I want to go anymore. Cause I know I can. Like, can I live that way? Yeah. But do I want to? I just. It's too Costly. That was where I came to. And what is scary is the longer you walk with the Lord, when I say you can fake it. I've got so much fruit and momentum from the last 40 years or 37 years. People wouldn't even notice for 10 years because I would just ride the wave of that, but I would not be in it in my heart, you know, I would just kind of be taking it easy. But what happens is I've had to learn to go to the Lord constantly and to labor. This is my labor. I've learned to shift so that instead of trying to strive to push through and go, I've got to keep going. I've got to keep going. My biggest labor, truly, at this season and for many years now, has been to enter into the rest of God so that from that rest I can labor with the strength of God. But the writers of the Hebrew says, labor to enter into the rest, not labor to do all your stuff. So you come to Jesus all you who are weary and heavy laden. He says, I will give you rest. That does not mean we're all going to go and sit on Mount Athos in a Benedictine monastery, separate from the world, holding hands, singing Kumbaya, holding a rock. That is not what I'm talking about. We're living on mission with intentionality. But there's a rest that comes when you find that place in God. And that's the only way you're going to endure. Because ultimately, no matter how famous you think you might get, how much resource you might get, how much notoriety, how many followers, our whole message is, I go into some of the wealthiest people on Earth and go, you will never be satisfied with that. I don't know why a Christian suddenly thinks they're going to be satisfied with that. Because you cannot get your satisfaction, your rest, your peace, your joy, your significance, your security. From that, you might feel emotionally a little bit better. You might get an emotional dopamine hit for a while. Especially if you've got woundedness from your past and broken. It will fill the void until it no longer does, and then it won't. And then that's why people spiral and end up doing dumb things.

[Lisa Harper]

It's not that they're.

[Christine Cain]

Most people that fall are not bad people. They've made bad choices because they refused to deal with their stuff and enter into that place of rest with God's. So they're constantly striving and looking for something they're only ever going to find in God. But we keep getting distracted. I don't Know, Lisa, you might have some wisdom to that.

[Lisa Harper]

No, you said it perfectly. The only thing I was thinking was when it doesn't fill the void, the void actually gets deeper because you, you begin to lose hope. You know, I love, I think the most effective ministry statement you see from, from Paul with the Thessalonians when he says, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel but our lives as well because you'd become so dear to us. At the end of the day, it's all about relationship, first with God and then with each other. And when it starts becoming about performance or platform, we just drain of hope. But if you focus on, on a vibrant, real relationship with Jesus, not marketing Jesus, but a deep personal relationship with Jesus, and then you facilitate. Chris, when, I mean, a couple of weeks ago, Sadie, I was ready to throw in the towel and I called Chris and she let me whine and let me cry and say words that aren't in the Bible. And then she, she said, okay, Lisa's back up. From a 30,000 foot view, you saw this and this and this. And it broke your heart and it broke your heart because your heart is still soft. You haven't hardened your heart. Now let's back up and look. And I was like, you're right. I just needed to collapse for a minute. And then Holy Spirit infused me with hope, reminded me, kind of gave me perspective and I was able to start going. But every now and then you, you've gotta pull your car to the side of the road and get fresh gas, get fresh oil. And so don't, don't beat yourself up if you feel like you're in a collapsing season right now. You actually have, have every single one of the saints in scripture and spurgeon, the saints we have outside of scripture, all of them went through a season where they lost their groove, every single one. And instead of that taking them out, that built the scaffolding of endurance. To say, I can't do this by myself. I need Jesus more as a 61 year old Christ follower than I did as a 5 year old who walked the aisle. And so I think, to ever think I won't be desperate is foolish. I can't parent, I can't be a good friend, I can't do any of that apart from Jesus. And so I think the misnomer is if I work a little harder, if I do it a little bit better, I'll never struggle again. I'm like, oh no, Jesus didn't punk us. He said, in this world you will have trouble. And he didn't say, you'll only have it once, and then you'll get the right strategy and you'll never have it again. We live in a broken world. There's sad, hard days. Lean first into Jesus, then lean into the body of Christ he gives us. And then when you can pick the baton back up and you run like you are trying to win the race, so good.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wow. That was so beautiful, y'. All. Cece Winans was on the podcast a few weeks ago, months ago, and she said, I think my greatest superpower is that I know I need him. She said, I need him. I'm desperate for him. And I was like, that's so good. And I've been reading through the Psalms, and it has been helping me so much because of similar reasons. You get desperate, you get tired, you get all. And when you don't even know how to pray, it's really helpful to read how other people prayed when they felt the same way and pray to God in the same way. Use the same language, and it will stay start to become your prayer, your language, your praise. And so I can't even tell you how encouraged I am from this conversation. You two are literally the best. You know, y' all are the best kind of people when you can laugh till you cry, and then you actually cry because you're so filled up with Jesus. So thank y' all for coming on the podcast together and pouring your hearts out. It was so beautiful.

[Lisa Harper]

No, it's an honor. Thank you, Sadie.

[Christine Cain]

We love you so much, Sadie. You give. You give us. You help us 100%. I'm like, if God's raising up chicks.

[Lisa Harper]

A hundred percent, I mean, our goal. Our goal is just to whatever little bit of hot wind we have to blow it into your sails and praise God for what he's doing. We love you very much.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

It truly means so much. Y' all are the greatest. Thank y', all.

[Christine Cain]

Sam.