← WHOA That's Good Podcast
WHOA That's Good Podcast
What My Biggest Panic Attack Taught Me | Sadie Robertson Huff | Christian Huff | Levi Lusko
00:50:05
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- [00:02]
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- [01:08]
Sadie Robertson
What's up world? That's good fam. Happy world. That's good Wednesday. I hope you're having a great week but friends, it is about to get so much better because we have one of everyone's favorite guests back on the podcast with a brand new book and I think it's going to help so many people. We have our good friend Levi. Let's go back on with a with a book title that's quite shocking. Blessed are the spooky spiraling which I love this whole topic of conversation we're going to be having. But first off, just welcome back to the podcast.
- [01:37]
Levi Lusko
Levi, Sadie and Christian, thank you for having me. We love you guys so much.
- [01:42]
Sadie Robertson
We love y'all. What what's new up in Yalls life? Are you still cold tubbing? Are you still running? What? Tell us about life.
- [01:49]
Levi Lusko
Any new tattoos above it? No, I did get a new tattoo but I got a little leopard right here. See him?
- [01:55]
Sadie Robertson
Oh that's cool.
- [01:56]
Levi Lusko
But you would laugh Christian. Today I had with all the things and you know we get so busy but I was like I have to work out but I didn't have enough time. I was like I don't have time to change and change. I was like you know what, I'm just gonna work out in my jeans. And so I did my weights and then I was like I I would love to run at least one mile. So I'm I was like, but I'm in jeans. So like you know what, I'm just doing it. So I ran a mile in jeans. I'm wearing a belt buckle that says Montana on it. You should have seen me on my treadmill. I got my mile in. It was like I had 35 minutes to squeeze it all in, but I got it done. I don't know if you've ever run a mil jeans, but it was. I don't fully recommend it, but I'm glad I did it.
- [02:31]
Christian Huff
I'm proud of you, though. That's awesome.
- [02:32]
Sadie Robertson
That's impressive. Way to get it done.
- [02:34]
Levi Lusko
Just get it done. Are they.
- [02:35]
Christian Huff
Are they skinny jeans or like boot cut jeans?
- [02:37]
Levi Lusko
You know, they're kind of right in the middle, straight fit, but they got a little elastic, so that, that was my saving grace. Just a little bit of stretch.
- [02:43]
Sadie Robertson
I love it. Well, hey, Jenny actually is the one that got me really starting to work out when she. Whenever I was visiting y'all and she took me to her spin class and that made me fall in love with spin. So you guys are inspiring when it comes to the workout discipline. But I do really want to get into this book because we have so much about, so much to cover. Your message at Passion this year was one of my very favorite messages I've ever heard. And I really mean that. I love life advice. That's like what our whole podcast is founded on. And I love getting advice from people older than me and trying to learn earlier, you know, and so just the heart that you brought to the room by saying, like, hey, I didn't really have a lot of people at this age telling me this was so helpful. And now you've written like a whole book book, or I guess maybe before that you had written a whole book and we didn't know about it yet of just good advice about life and what's going on. And so talk to me a little bit just to start about just why you were ready to share this big message about spiraling and midlife crisis and all the different things that you've been so vulnerable opening up about lately.
- [03:51]
Levi Lusko
Oh, you're so. You were so kind right after the message to both of you. But I was actually kind of unsure about that message being the perfect message for Passion. But I was talking to some staff members about it because I had been giving that talk a version of that Alexander the Great and Seasons of Life and three containers and just kind of that whole roadmap for how to navigate the second half of life. And mostly I'd been given it in environments where there was guys my age, 40 year old guys, successful business guys, leaders, pastors, and a 20 year old on my staff said, man, that would be the perfect message for passion. And I said, why? He goes, why wait till people are 40 for them to know this is coming? Tell them early, save us the trouble. And I was like, wow, that's a really good point. So obviously in our prayer talks, I said that was where I was thinking, and Louis was real supportive of it. And. And then it ended up being one of those things where every single college age, 25 year old, 22 year old, 18 year old was saying. It was exactly what I needed to hear. Because we do go through transition. Coming out of college, you know, putting down a jersey in your cleats or your baseball bat or, you know, your football for the first. When your final game is over, there's a real ident crisis if your identity has been athlete or cheerleader or sorority girl or whatever. Now all of a sudden you're transitioning into the workforce, into being a mom, into having kids. We all struggle in transitions, and that's essentially what blessed are the spiraling is. It's a guide for transitions because we feel destabilized. My big spiral moment came when I turned 38. I'm almost 43 now, so it's almost five years ago. And I had a really hard 18 months. I learned a lot. And when I began to write the book back in 2023, the Lord basically said, I think you're healed enough to start to share some of these lessons. I don't think it's really wise to share too much early in the hurting process. You need to heal then. But when you start seeing enough healing to where you could be generous with it, like Jesus, you can offer your scars to other people.
- [05:50]
Sadie Robertson
Man, that is so good. I'm learning that as I go. And that's what I told you after the message. I was like, so much of what you said, I'm kind of going through and I'm learning a lot about right now. You talked about being a young pastor and like finding your identity and being a young. The young pastor. And then as you get older, kind of coming out of that and that being hard, not even realizing you attach yourself to that. And for me, I was like that. Like, everyone was always complimenting me as to, like, how wise I was at the age I was. And I kind of had this fear, like, as I get older, I don't know if I'll still be invited to these things. Because is it. Am I saying stuff that's really mattering or is it just because I'm young or is it just, you know, and I Just started getting in my head about, like, that one aspect. And now I'm, like, so thankful that my identity wasn't attached to that. Because, yes, I'm still young, but, I mean, now it's just crazy. Like, college students who are 18 are like, oh, I started reading your book when I was, like, 11. I'm like, what? Like, you know, I'm starting to not be that young person. Or It's. I'm not 19, 18 anymore. And that's a good thing. Like, man, thank God I'm not. Thank God I've transitioned to where I. I'm at. But sometimes we, like, fear that transition and what that's going to mean when we get too attached. In our last season of life. And so, so much of what you said and even what you just said, I mean, I'm learning that as I go sometimes, like, I will. Because, you know, we have such a public platform, and I'm talking about things publicly. I'm currently going with. And I haven't healed from it yet, and it's messy and it's confusing. And so just so much of how you share your life is so helpful to me. When we talk about spiraling in your book, you go through, like, just because you kind of nerd out and stuff, which is, like, the best thing ever about, like, spirals in the world and, like, different things that are in the shape of spirals and stuff. Can you talk to us about, like, what a spiral is and what it. When you say, like, the people who are spiraling, what does that really look like?
- [07:46]
Levi Lusko
Yeah, I think it's really important to see God's sovereign hand when Job was spiraling, and that's such, like, cultural language. Like, I'm having a hard time. I'm. I'm confused. I'm asking questions. Job was doing so because his. His was taken away. His health, his kids, all this. He was for sure spiraling. And yet he went to God with his confusion. And his story ends with him blessed, right? Twice as blessed as he was at the beginning, but in the middle. One of the things God says is look up and see the scars. Stars. Who called them out by name, look into the ocean. Who. Who called Leviathan and catches him by his nose. Who. Who. Who does all these things? And he points him to so many things in nature. The hurricanes, the whirlpools. And all of those things do have spirals in them. You know, tornadoes, the. The galaxies, even a snail shell, even a wave as it curls, curves in a perfect spiral. And so I think one of the things I'm. I'm hoping to do. And the book is not written linear left to right. It's what, it's. It's in a circle. So we're coming around and around this content. And I did nerd out for a couple years on it, for sure. Sadie and, and Christian and I. I want to lift people's attention up and to see the bigness and the grandeur of God and, and hopefully say, hey, I know you're confused because you've never been here before. You've never been. I have a friend who was spiraling because his daughter went to kindergarten and he was like, oh, my gosh, I'm done with the time where she's just at home all the time. And soon she'll be graduating high school and getting married. And, you know, now in his mind, she's already off with her own family, not returning his phone calls, and he's freaking out. It's like, relax, she's just in kindergarten. But it's. It still is. If it's hurting you, God cares. And God does want to use these things for his good. And so what I'm trying to say to people is kind of continuing the Beatitudes. Blessed are you when you're persecuted. You don't feel blessed, but you are blessed are you when you're poor in spirit. Hey, I'd rather be rich in faith. But being poor in spirit develops us. Blessed are those who mourn. I don't want to mourn, but the Bible says that God comes near to broken hearts. So if I'm broken in heart in. In the upside down kingdom, I'm actually blessed. So I'm inviting people to say in faith. I choose to rejoice because, like Job, I'm going to come out of the spiral than I went into it. And even though I'd rather win the lottery and, you know, get front row parking at the mall and all the things that we want our life to be like, we actually grow the most in our difficult seasons.
- [10:09]
Sadie Robertson
That's true.
- [10:10]
Christian Huff
That's good.
- [10:11]
Sadie Robertson
That's true. That's tough, but that's true. I didn't know if you. Oh, I thought you were about to ask something. Sorry.
- [10:18]
Christian Huff
Well, I was about that. You're about to ask something.
- [10:19]
Sadie Robertson
You got it. Boop.
- [10:20]
Christian Huff
At what point, like when you, when you were going through that, when you were 38, at what point do you feel like you, like, realize you're in the spiral? Come out of the spiral, because, you know, most of the time, you know, people always Say, like, you know, the fastest way to God is to hit rock bottom. How do you get in the spiral but not get out of it? Yeah. How do you, how do you, you know, consider joy when you face trials in the spiral? But how do you, you know, get out of the. Out of the spiral?
- [10:49]
Sadie Robertson
Yeah.
- [10:50]
Levi Lusko
Yeah. Well, it was a slow process. You know, I got in it quickly. It hit like. Like that. Like, I went to bed one night and woke up in a panic attack, and I had never had one quite like that. Art 190 beats per minute. Hands sweating, I grabbed my Bible. All the words on the pages were confused. I tried to put on a sermon by our friend Louis. And, and, and it didn't help. I felt more scared. And I was like. I literally remember thinking, oh, my gosh, Ephesians and Louis are not helping me. I'm in big trouble.
- [11:26]
Sadie Robertson
Okay, friends, let's talk about electrolytes for a sec. Because whether you're chasing toddlers, chasing your fitness goals, or just trying to bounce back from being sick, which I'm doing a lot of those things right now, your body needs more than just water. I didn't realize this for the longest time, but hydration isn't just about getting the H2O down. It's also about keeping your body fluid levels balanced. And that means electrolyte. That's why I love Element. It is a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix or sparkling electrolyte water. So whether I'm on the go or chilling at home, I've got some options. Both are packed with sodium, magnesium and potassium to keep me feeling my best. And there's no sugar, no artificial colors, and no sketchy ingredients. And electrolyte imbalance is no joke. It can leave you tired, crampy, off your game. All the things element helps keep everything running smoothly. And I always feel so much better after I drink it. People from all different walks of life drink it, like Olympians, Special force teams, and everyday moms and dads and even podcast hosts. So if you've been feeling drained lately, this could be the boost your body needs and has been missing. Truly, Element is my go to if I'm feeling sick, which I have been so sick the past week and a half, I have drink an Element every day. I felt so much better. If I feel crampy, even in this pregnancy. Like I've noticed, the magnesium really helps me and it has all the things my body needs. So get your free Element sample pack with any purchase@drink element.com. whoo. Try element Risk Free. If you don't like it, they'll refund your order, no questions asked. That's drink element dot com. Whoo. Drink Element D R I N K L m n t.com Whoa.
- [13:06]
Levi Lusko
And the problem was I was doing two things that involve your, your rational brain. And when you're in a panic attack, the, the brain that, that offers to processes content and information can't get you out because that part of your brain's been hijacked. Actually, if I would have gone back and coached myself, I would have told myself deep breathing, singing, or even dancing. Strangely enough, those things can actually help you more through a panic attack because they don't involve the same part of your brain that's gotten on fire in the panic attack. But I, I didn't know why it was happening. There was a number of reasons. Partially because of the pace I had been running out for the last 18 years, partially because of some unprocessed wounds childhood, partially because of, as we mentioned, some of the identity stuff that had gotten hijacked with, you know, me being planning our church at 22, being a pastor when I was so young. And I didn't mean to, I meant to build my identity on Jesus. But little things creep in along the way. And all of a sudden now little bits of what God's done through me and for me and have become part of how I see me. And so it was quick in and slow out. It was about an 18 month long period where I fully felt like I was out of the clouds of that pit. But the one year mark brought some clarity and closure where I feel like I was really getting some distance and understanding better what was happening. But in the middle I just resolved to not make any sudden decisions. I think a lot of people the reason the midlife crisis trope about the Corvette, the divorce, the affair, the quitting the job, whatever is there is because people tend to make their worst decisions in their most severe storms. So what I want people to know is that when you're in, it is not the right time to go and do something permanent. Do not make a long term decision based on a temporary feeling. Do not take your life. Do not kill to get a tattoo. Do not, you know, so what do you do in the storm? You stick to the plan. From the, from the calm. You don't doubt in the shadow what he told you in the sunshine. Keep going, focus on healing, bring the right voices and don't trust your objectivity because you might not feel this way a year from now, two years from now. And you might regret a rash decision you make today.
- [15:12]
Sadie Robertson
That's so true. One of like, my favorite pieces of advice my mom has always given me is don't make a really big decision in a crazy time of life because it's so true. True. That's what you're saying. Because there's so many times where it's like, things will get so busy and so crazy and then you want to make a decision like, okay, well, I'm going to quit that or I'm going to move or I'm going to do this. It's like, no, because you're like, your circumstances right now are feeding all of that. And in a week you might be out of that. You know, in a month you might be out of that. It's going to look different. And I look back and I'm super thankful for that advice because it's helped me process things a lot more in the moment and like, you know, weigh them out a lot better and then you make a lot better decisions. You kind of talked about how some of it was childhood wounds and different things from the past that were coming up. And it's interesting because I had a similar panic attack situation where it woke me up in the night. And it, that, that's such an alarming thing when you have like a panic attack wakes you up in that. Because at first you don't know, like you named all the things that you think it was coming from, but you learn that later. You don't realize that in the moment, you know, and you're like, why is this happening? And then you take time, maybe a good counselor, a good friend, and you start to kind of identify some of those things. And it's so helpful because you can actually kind of get out of it and get to the point where your mind hasn't built up all this for years and you get to the place of attack. But you had a quote in the book that said, wounds that are concealed cannot be healed. And I was like, that is so good. Which you're so good at, those one liners that you just underline in star and say, well, that's good. Talk a little bit about just some of that. Because one of the things that I am so thankful for in this book of yours and like the things you're sharing is, I think a lot of times, like, you've been so honest with you and Jenny's story and losing Linea and y'all, y'all talk about that aspect of your life being a hard thing. But sometimes, whenever, like you get to the point of like talking about one thing in, in your life. You can just always talk about that one thing that's obviously really hard, but then we don't talk about like all the other things in life that are also really hard and happening. And it's really like, beautiful thing, your vulnerability to say, like, hey, there's like other stuff that was in my past that I hadn't dealt with that was coming up. What did that process look like for you at 38 years old? Going back and healing some of that. And for those listening who might not be 38 yet, but actually our primary audience is about 20 to 35, so we're kind of in that range who haven't dealt with some stuff in the past that they just think is just going to be healed by time, but is, you know, starting to weigh on them a little bit heavier. What's your advice and how do you go back to that to heal it?
- [17:47]
Levi Lusko
Well, there's this great Chinese proverb that says the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago. And the second best time is today. So if you're listening and you're going, I'm 20, what do I need? I could worry about that later. Let me tell you, if you deal with that tree planting now, you'll be grateful later. And if you are going, oh, Dang it, I'm 35 and I wish I would have, well, I would say the second best times today. So no matter what, it's the right time to do some of this work of inner healing. The Lord wants to bring healing. The Bible says that the wounds of Jesus are there to heal us. By his stripes you are healed. So it's not just forgiveness. I think a lot of times we limit the cross to forgiveness, the penal substitutionary atonement aspect, meaning we don't have to go to hell because Jesus took the wrath of God. That's just the beginning. You know, there's this whole process of walking and healing and that happens cooperatively in community based on the book of James, confess your sins to one another, not that you would be forgiven, that's Jesus. But that you might be healed. So that has to happen cooperatively. We have to remember how many times the New Testament says, one another, love one another, bear with one another's wounds, all these one anothers. Guess how many of those you can do alone? Zero. One another has to be with me and Christian running it out like bros. You know, me and Christian have had some, a lot of runs together, talking about sins, talking about our Past talking about our pain, being honest, praying for each other. I think we have to have community where we can be real. Our good friend Christian Stanfield, like the, the honesty about the hard stuff he's been through, how his midlife spiral looked like Phil Wickham, same thing. Like these are friends in community. You've got the girlfriends, right? We have to have brothers and sisters. So for me, the, the, the, the coming to connect the dots on some of the things that, that I needed Jesus to heal because only Jesus can heal. But we have to process some of this through with gifted counselors who have spiritual gifts of discernment and biblical based counseling. But then also I think the, the friendship aspect. So yeah, my, my, our daughter went to heaven and that was a big gaping wound. But a big gaping wound, like if you get a gunshot, you're going to make sure and go to the hospital for a gunshot. Right? We needed to process it. What I didn't realize until it became an issue because like Mentos and Diet Coke, it starts to burst, is that I had been through some really challenging stuff as a child connected to my mom and dad getting a divorce, but the four and five years before that, before they actually divorced, where it was just their marriage was breaking down in our, in our family, but no one really ever talked about it. All that stuff got shoved down to where if you'd have asked me at 25, like, hey, what did your parents divorce impact you? Like, and I would have gone, well, it was hard, but not, not really much of an issue until in this major spiral I took the time to go through a lot of that childhood processing and do it with a biblical based counselor and started to connect some dots on like, hey, there's some major patterns in my life that got set into motion even connecting to my getting addicted to pornography right around that same period of time that were clear, I can see now coping mechanisms for me to try and avoid the pain that led to other ministry good things that were sort of like my addiction to different mentors and pushing people away when I felt like they were getting close enough to hurt me. And I, I just didn't notice those things because we all are blind to our own blind spots. And so what I'm trying to offer people in the book is exactly what you said. Just opening your eyes to how you were formed and shaped and how your shadow developed and then letting Jesus's bright light overturn all of those hard things.
- [21:17]
Christian Huff
And this is a hypothetical question, but just because I love the title of the book, Blessed Are the spiraling, like, if, if you would have process earlier on, which I think sometimes we can be so quick to want to rush into things after we go through them. What do you think you would have titled the book if you hadn't have let yourself heal those, you know, heal, you know, after the time and what do you feel like? So maybe some of the content of the book would have been different if you wouldn't have taken that time to really wait, you know, three to five years after you'd kind of come out of this.
- [21:48]
Sadie Robertson
That's an interesting question, Christian.
- [21:50]
Levi Lusko
I've done hundreds of interviews around this book. I have never been asked such a good question.
- [21:54]
Sadie Robertson
That's a really good question.
- [21:55]
Levi Lusko
Like, you just got your Christopher Nolan on. This is like tenet. We're like in an alternate universe in the wormhole now.
- [22:01]
Christian Huff
If you would have wrote it so soon, I don't think you would have said, blessed are the spirit.
- [22:04]
Levi Lusko
No, no, no. I would have said the title of the book would have just said, this sucks.
- [22:08]
Sadie Robertson
Midlife crisis.
- [22:10]
Levi Lusko
I quit. You're right. I don't even know if I would have known it was midlife crisis. In the midst of it, I was just so hurting and confused, but trying to just, you know, I, I, I'm a firm believer in don't ever trade what you don't know for what you do. So what I do know, I knew in that moment, God's good and he's going to bring something good out of this. I just knew that, but I didn't know why. I didn't know that any of this was happening. I didn't have the closure. I didn't have the clarity. And then coming out of it, it's like coming out of the clouds in an airplane. I was able to look back and see, oh, wow, I was in a fog. I was in a deep pit. The Bible says I was in a horrible pit. He brought me out, put me on a solid rock. In the midst of it, I was confused. I didn't know if you just said, Hey, 10 years from now, are you still the pastor of Fresh Life? Are you still preaching? Are you still writing? I'd be like, I don't know, but I'm going to just trust God right now. Everything I'm feeling, I'm going to choose to ignore. I'm going to believe God's good. He called me. He has a plan. I'm believing I'm in a messy middle or in a wilderness. Kind of like John the Baptist who even called Jesus and said, did we make a mistake. Are you really the Messiah? And what did Jesus say? Blessed is he who's not offended because of me. John was spiraling, and Jesus said, you're blessed. And I believe when we're spiraling, God's calling us blessed. We just can't hear it yet. And so in the midst of it, I would never have had any conclusions to come to about that. I would just have pointed you, hey, the cross is still true. The God is still it. Even when you're confused, he's good. And if I go back and look at some of my preaching in that season, there was a lot of that where I'm just having to choose to just, in faith, keep pointing to God's goodness. And I believe everything I said there. I wasn't willing to open up some of this stuff because it was still in process. I was talking to trusted, wise friends and voices, but not just. Just everybody. And so when I got to a place, I wasn't fully out of it, but when I got to a place where I was seeing, okay, there's enough here, I started to bottle up some of the things because I knew I wasn't the only one who was going through stuff like that.
- [23:59]
Sadie Robertson
Y. Yeah, I love that I. I have, like, a question on this because I think that I. I think this is going to help everybody. But I actually really need the advice on this too, because you talk about, like, going through all these hard things while you're leading a public ministry. Like, Obviously when you're 38, you are pastoring a church and. And you're going through this and you continue doing it. Not everybody's leading a public ministry, but everybody has a public life in some way or another. You're showing up places, and I feel like it is really hard to know the balance of, like, showing up and continuing leading something or doing something when you're struggling. And, like, there's a time and a place for telling people what you're going through, but then not faking it and not struggling in private. Like, I just feel like it's kind of hard to discern how to do that. Well, I guess hindsight. Do you think you. You're like, yeah, that's how I would do it again, or are there ways that different things you would have done as you struggled so deeply personally and then had such a public life of leadership?
- [24:59]
Levi Lusko
Yeah. No, I think, Sadie, I think we all have to listen to the Holy Spirit and Christian guide us through the healthy compartmentalization. Unhealthy compartmentalization is what you said faking, pretending. And I think sometimes we can, in the, in the name of that, we can open up messy wounds that need to be healed instead of the healed scars that need to be shared. Jesus heal. Took healed scars and showed them and shared them. And I think so, like, if. If I. Jenny and I are having a tough morning and having a. A hard. We can put a pin in that and not go bleed on our people or use the church like it's therapy. We know we. We're going to stick to our vows, we're going to work this out. We're not happy with where this is at, but we're choosing to serve the people by. I'm not going to get up in the pulpit and be like, well, I want to be real. So, hey, Jenny and I had a big fight and not even sure how it's all going to work out. It's like, that's not helpful. That's not. Jesus had different levels of transparency for the 500, the 70, the 12. He was best friends with Lazarus. So I kind of like to think that he could be, like, let his hair down around Lazarus because it says he loved him and he was a friend. And Lazarus wasn't an apostle. He was a businessman. So maybe he could be like, man, my HR issues are tough. And Jesus is like, I know, tell me about it. James and John are driving me crazy. So I think we have to have safe places to vent. And so I think that's why you, if you treat your ministry or your church like it's your therapist, get a therapist, bless the people, point them to God, then resolve your own issues with your friends, with your safe community. And. And so I think we're being like Jesus and knowing Jesus knew all men, knew what was within man, and so he didn't reveal himself fully to everybody.
- [26:41]
Sadie Robertson
That's great. I love that. We literally had this conversation last night. So I was like, that's so good. I love that so much. One of the things that you just touched on too, a minute ago was John the Baptist. And I loved your perspective reading this on his life in the context of a spiral, because I feel like, you know, when I'm reading, when you're reading the Bible, especially when you're getting John Baptist, like, the emphasis is on Jesus, you know, so I'm not really thinking about what John was going through personally. And then I'm like, man, that actually would have been so hard. Can you just share with our listeners? And let me say too, you got to go read the book, because the way you break everything down. I want you to give all that away on the podcast. But I just think that's such a good perspective and you know, I don't know, everything you said about it, I love. So give, give our listeners a little insight on your insight on John the Baptist.
- [27:26]
Levi Lusko
Well, you're so kind. I compare John the Baptist as a one man Coachella because he's out in the des eating weird food, dressed strangely and the whole crowds come to him right at the beginning. He's like, he's so wild. He's wearing camel skin, eating bugs and honey and crowds of people to hear him. And that would be disorienting. You spend your whole life lonely. You've taken this Nazarite vow. You've just dedicated your life to God. Then how would it feel to have thousands of people wanting. He basically became an influencer, right? Everyone wants to get baptized by him, see him, even soldiers and Pharisees are coming out. And then all of a sudden, sudden he does the most important job of his life, which is to baptize his cousin. And now even some of his own disciples start following Jesus. The crowds start following, the attention goes to Jesus. And you know, some of his disciples that did stay with him are like, come on teacher, let's do something to go viral again. Like, we need to re attain the level of influence and celebrity. Our posts aren't getting to as many people. They said Jesus's followers are baptizing more than us. And what did John say? He said he must increase, I must decrease. And hopefully we'll all have that level of maturity when inevitably in life, right? No matter what, you can't sustain peak influence forever, right? Christians biceps at 80, they're not going to look like they do today, right? You're, you know, whatever we might do, I'm not going to have the level of ability to preach and travel. None of what we can do at 20, 30, right in midlife is the same as 70, 80. So John's was just shrunk down to a compressed timetable. But he offers all of us a glimpse into the necessary death in order to see Jesus's magnification like we all should want to. But then having passed that test, he goes to prison. And in prison he starts to really get low. And it seems like he's confused and doubting and he sends that message is, are you really the Messiah? And that's such a haunting question. Did I make a mistake? What's going on? Why am I here? How has this happened? You know, and and then Jesus of course calls him blessed. And there's that whole dialogue about, about how John's the greatest man ever born among women, he feels made a mistake. But Jesus like, no, no, no, bro, you have no idea. You, you, you hit it on the head and you're good and the blind are seeing and the deaf are hearing and blessed is he who's not offended because of me.
- [29:43]
Christian Huff
So good. Two kind of off topic questions, but going off John the Baptist, have you, have you ever like read up or, or studied on that? Some people think that John the Baptist was Jesus's rabbi.
- [29:56]
Levi Lusko
I've never heard that. That's wild.
- [29:58]
Christian Huff
Yeah, it's interesting because at the time people talk about, about how with Jesus is like his illegitimate birth, he wouldn't have been proper schooling. And people think that, you know, because there's the, the Essenes. And then a lot of Jesus's kind of philosophy kind of goes off of that. And then it's kind of why Jesus's ministry really starts after John the Baptist kind of goes to prison and gets beheaded. So that was just kind of like a, like a sidebar.
- [30:25]
Sadie Robertson
Sidebar.
- [30:27]
Christian Huff
The interesting thing about John the Baptist was that, that so John the Baptist only baptized people in, in the places where Elijah did his miracles. So I just was kind of going.
- [30:39]
Levi Lusko
Off, bro, there's a lot there. I'll have to google that later to nerd out on the 48 Men podcast about that.
- [30:44]
Christian Huff
Do a follow on it.
- [30:46]
Sadie Robertson
I thought love on John the Baptist study. I remember back in the day, whenever you know my life, I was truly like dedicating my life to the Lord. And this is when I was like 17, 18 and I already had like a following up to that point because of our family's TV show and this when it, and stuff like that. And I remember feeling like, okay, if I go like full on ministry, like I'm totally going to lose this following and realizing like I'm okay with that because, because this is what the Lord is calling me into. And you know, and I felt like it was out of this public eye kind of following influencer thing and I surrendered that. I was like, okay, go for it. And then it's so amazing because God actually use that like me really giving my life to the Lord and every influence I have is, you know, to bring people to Christ and all these different things and elevated my platform, which I really wasn't expecting at all. But at the same time I hold it loosely because I'm like, it's not always going to be there in, in this way and in this context. And it's not always. Yeah, the videos aren't always going to go viral or hit or connect with the young audience and whatnot, and that's okay. But this is where God has me and this is how I'm using my influence. But it's for his glory. He must increase, I must decrease. So just like relating to John the Baptist in that sense, I never have seen it like that or thought about like that. And I feel like in this book, like, you bring up so many different people in the Bible. Like, you're bringing up David, you're bringing up Job, you're bringing up John the Baptist, you bring up Solomon, you bring up so many different people. Did this study of this concept just awaken you to a whole new perspective of these people too? Like, as you studied the Bible, was it coming alive to you in different ways? As you were nerding out, were you actually like, getting excited about the things you were learning and seeing in a new way?
- [32:36]
Levi Lusko
Without a doubt. Without a doubt. And may, you know, and I love what you're saying and I hope God continues to elevate both of your podcasts and platforms and influence because you guys have that heart for Jesus, but I think we all have to go. But if he didn't, how would I pass that test? But if it went down, how would I handle that? You know, I was talking to Demi Tebow about how she had to give back the crown of Miss Universe and how hard it was to hand the crown over to the next person to go, okay, this crown literally is not mine. I don't have a crown is now on your head. And I think, you know, Jesus did the miracle of the feeding of the 4000 after the 5000. And the human part of me goes, oh my gosh, I would way rather have you go to 6,000, Jesus 7,000. Right. I want everything to be up and to the right, growing and growing and growing and everything can't. And if it doesn't, and when he chooses to, okay, hey now, what about when you're in a wheelchair? What about when you're in old folks home? What about when you, when I can't do, do, do I still have. And I think that's the test of our identity. And to your question, I found positive and negative examples of midlife crisis all over the Bible. The more I started to look at spiraling and turning into blessing, the more I It's like when you start looking for a Honda Accord, that's all you see on the road is a Honda Accord, right? So I started to look for spirals and crises turning into blessing. And I found them everywhere, both positive, like Jacob, who wrestled with God till his hip was broke, and then he was blessed out of that spiral of wr. But then I also found Saul, who I think is the best example in the Bible, King Saul, of a midlife crisis gone wrong, where the energy that could have humbled him and taken him to the next level of leadership and influence. Actually, he was destroyed by his crisis because he spiraled into jealousy and envy. And he started getting so mad when they said, David has slain his tens of thousands, but saw only his thousands. So he liked being the one everyone sang about. He liked being the one popping off on the. On the TikTok. But once someone else went more viral than him, he was envious. Instead of saying, praise God, David, may you go on and do great things, and may I be a part of it. And instead of trying to open up doors, he was trying to, like, sabotage and talk bad about David and bring him down. And so I saw in that picture such an example of hopefully what we can avoid if we can find the blessing of God in spiraling, find the death that leads to resurrection, deny ourselves, pick up our cross and become Yoda and not just want to be Luke Skywalker forever.
- [35:04]
Christian Huff
So good.
- [35:04]
Sadie Robertson
That's so great. I love that. There was a quote in the book that I thought was really good, and it was kind of this, like, invitation to the readers of, like, hey, you can change your life. Like, you. There is never too late. Like, there's never a time that you can't, like, decide to change what you're doing and the way your life looks like. And I think that was really good advice that some people need to hear. Like, changing a career path, changing a different thing. So, like, I love how there's so much to the spider in where it's like, okay, don't go crazy. Don't change everything. Stay the course, stay. But then, like, when is the time that you go, okay, maybe my life does need a change. Change a little bit, and it's okay to start a new adventure or go down a whole new path. What does that look like?
- [35:43]
Levi Lusko
Yeah, great question. I think when we are at a healthier, saner moment, you know, and you can. One of the ways to. To test that is, like, if you're at a place where you can see the beauty in a flower, like, you're. You're better. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you're in A panic attack. You're not noticing, oh, there's the bird singing and there's the tree. And like, but when you're. When you're. When you're healthy, when you're well, when you've worked through that in community and the, The. The spiritual advisors, advis or like, you know, I see healing in you, I think. And then you're like, I still feel maybe a sense of a career changer. I still feel like, in the book's example, my friend who's a rancher became an electrician. And that's good. That can be a part of that next season of life. And approaching the second half, for us, it was launching a youth conference. You know, I'd always said, oh, I don't want to do conferences, because every church does a conference. But we really, in our season of spiraling, one of the things that we started to really feel like was a sense of a call to reach out to junior hires and high school schools, high school students, partially because I got saved in middle school and high school, like, right between middle school and high school. And I was like, man, I need to pay it forward and reach. Do something to reach young people in our region. And so many of the great teenage conferences, you know, Motion Passion Camp, all these conferences for young people forward, they're all in the Southeast. And God broke my heart for our region, the Northwest, the Rocky Mountain area. And so to put on a youth conference for young people. And. And when we were healthy and coming out of that, we still felt that call. And it was almost a chance to. To be reborn in a new. A new season of development and put something out there for God to bless.
- [37:17]
Sadie Robertson
Great. I love that so much. That. And. And for everyone who has not gone to their conference, you got to go this year. It is the end of July, and I'm dying because I was supposed to speak, but I am literally having a baby three weeks after that, so I have to postpone, but I'm going to be there next year, which I'm so excited about. And I just love what you're doing. And similar to us, like, we felt very called to do our conference here in Monroe, and people are like, why would you do a conference in Monroe? There's not enough hotel rooms, there's not enough Ubers, not enough. There's really not enough anything. And I'm like, we felt called to. We felt burdened to, because there's none of that here. You know, like, you got. You have to travel to Atlanta. You have to travel, which isn't far. But for some people it's, it is, it's not accessible. And what's been amazing is like one, we've had our community rally around it, we've had so many local people, but then we had people travel from all over the world, which was like an unexpected blessing, which is so cool. And so, yeah, you gotta. I love that so much of what you said is like, you have to discern where the spirit really is leading you. And it's hard to discern that when you are spiraling and when you're in the chaos. So lean in, get the wisdom, get the counselor's advice, all the different things. And when you come out of it and you can hear clearly, when you can see clearly, that's when you can be confident. This is truly from the Lord. So I love that advice. Christian, you got anything else on your mind?
- [38:35]
Christian Huff
Yeah, I was going to say how. I know you kind of talk about this a little bit in the book, but for the person listening who, who is kind of wrestling with that idea of, of the spiral because of, you know, it's, it's not, you know, it's, it's, it's less circumstantial. It's more. They're wrestling with the shame of something and they're in a spiral because of a decision that they made. How do you kind of speak to the person who's in a spiral because of a circumstance that happened in the their life versus someone who's kind of dealing with that regret or shame of being in a spiral because of a decision that they made?
- [39:09]
Levi Lusko
Yeah, that's great. No, I mean, some of it can be self induced and I, and I definitely feel some of that. Like in what, in what many of my spirals, we are all complicit in our own suffering. Right? So something doesn't have to be your fault to be your responsibility. So it wasn't my fault my parents got divorced. But that did impact me, so I needed to deal with it. But there were also some things I needed to address in people pleasing in my attention, my focus, my saying yes to everything because of a need to like be the hero. So for example, two weeks ago I got a text message saying, can you come to South Africa in, in, in two weeks and speak to 8,500 teenagers? And it would be a great opportunity. And you know, a previous version of me would have been like, let's do it. You know, but with the calendar where it is, is I, I got, I'm in Oklahoma and Atlanta this week. I'M I was in seven cities last week. There's all this going on. It's not the right decision for my family, for my heart, for my church, for me to go off to Africa and do this because I wouldn't be able to stay there and recover from the jet lag. I would have to literally land, preach, get on the plane, which I've done two other times. And so for me, that's, that's sin. That's the sinfulness in my heart of needing the validation and needing the adrenaline of that. And so that is partially what got me into the season of being too overwhelmed, because I was saying yes to too many things like Martha, which leads to anxiety instead of the better part of sitting at Jesus's feet and knowing, hey, if I don't go to South Africa, guess what? They're going to invite someone else. You know what they did? They went down. I probably wasn't even the first call. It was probably because Chad beach or Rich Wilkerson or Sadie said no or Christian said no. So they got to me. And you know what they're going to do? They're going to go down the list and invite the next 10 preachers who are on their list in their scramble session to fill the slot. So it becoming my emergency and pulling me away from the better things. A part of my hopefully strategy for the second half is saying yes to what God has actually called me to do. Being comfortable saying no just as much as yes. Not needing to be the hero or the people pleaser and happily sitting at the feet of Jesus and being there with Lennox when he, you know, is done with school for the day.
- [41:23]
Sadie Robertson
That is so good.
- [41:24]
Christian Huff
Oh good.
- [41:26]
Sadie Robertson
I think you're on mute.
- [41:27]
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- [41:30]
Sadie Robertson
I think you're on mute.
- [41:32]
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- [41:53]
Sadie Robertson
LinkedIn knows how that just made me think of this story because same for me, like I, I would say yes to all these things and not realizing that it was coming from a place in my heart that was like wanting the validation or wanting to be seen in that room or scenario and whatnot. And actually there was a moment recently where it was kind of like, whoa. Like I just kind of saw it for what it was, where this, this person that I admire from afar and look up to and have always learned a lot from. And this was not this person's fault and I'm definitely not going to say the name, but it was just an eye opening thing. So they asked me to like do something for them. Like their team had said, so so and so wants you to be a part of doing this interview and blah blah, blah for this new project they have coming out. And back in the day it would have been like, yes, like a hundred percent, just because it was that person that asked. Well, it really didn't make sense for my schedule and my. All this different stuff, same thing. I looked at the calendar and I was like, oh, I just, I really, I can't do it. And I felt so bad for saying I can't do it, but I was like, I really, I really just can't. And so anyways, we said no. Well, then they said, okay, well, could you do like a little Instagram Live or just something, whatever. And I was like, yeah, like we can probably make that happen as opposed to me traveling and doing all of this stuff. Well, we. I was like going to get on the call and it was kind of like this like a riverside situation or it was, it wasn't Instagram, it was some podcasting or something. So I was going to get on the call. Well, the person didn't realize I was on yet. So this is the person that I look up to who I think has asked me to do this thing. But she's on a phone call telling her dm. She's so annoyed. She's like. And they only were asking her because they want someone with a big social media following. And blow.
- [43:37]
Levi Lusko
Oh no.
- [43:37]
Sadie Robertson
Doesn't know I'm on the phone and I'm just listening and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I. I said no because in my mind I'm thinking this person asked for me and I just got to hear her say her team wanted me because of my following. And she's like, that doesn't even make sense. She's actually kind of deficient. It doesn't make sense for her to drive. Like she's having this whole conversation. So then I'm kind of like, okay, how do I let her know I'm here? Just wait for them to get off the call. And then like later I come in and like, hey, like it. See you. But it was just such a lesson for me and like such confirmation in not saying yes to something for the wrong reasons. Like not saying yes just because of a person or a place or for someone to think you're cool, but, like, really doing it because you feel like this is where I need to be and this is what I don't need to be. And having kids really helped me with that because now I feel, like, accountable, you know, to my time and my thing. And it just made me be a lot more intentional with my yeses and my nose. But you don't have to wait till you have kids to be accountable to the places you're going, the things you're doing, and your why behind them. Like, it's so important. And so that was a good little wake up call for me.
- [44:49]
Levi Lusko
Wow. Yeah. That makes me feel uncomfortable. Like orange juice and toothbrush, brushing your teeth.
- [44:54]
Sadie Robertson
It was really awkward. I was like, whoa, this is.
- [44:58]
Levi Lusko
But it's a good reminder for all of us. The Lord's listening all the time, right?
- [45:00]
Sadie Robertson
Uncomfortable, yes, absolutely. And she never knew I saw that and never needs to know it, really. She wasn't trying to be, you know, mean when she said it. She was frustrated with her team for asking me to do that. But anyways, it's just, you know, I think this book, I said this at the beginning, is going to help so many people. I know it's going to help so many people. I'm curious to know how much it's helped you. I know in the past few years you've had a lot of really hard things happen, like losing your dad. And we were so blessed and honored to get to see your dad at Passion. You talk about this, about him singing Agnes Day with everyone and standing to his feet, even with cancer. And I'm so thankful, Levi, as a friend, that I got to be in the room to see that. And it was just beautiful. But with the context of all that you've been studying and all that you've been writing, how has it helped you in your life already with the things in life that you've been going through?
- [45:51]
Levi Lusko
Immensely. Immensely. And yeah, that was. That was a moment I'll. I'll never. I'll never let go of. I'll hold on to that till my death, you know, but the big spiral I wrote about from the perspective of 38 is done. That's. There's blessing already coming out of that. Right? Every person who reads it and gets encouraged, that's already a blessing for that from that spiral. But now I'm in a new one, you know, And I think that's the thing, is that we're going to continue to face new spirals. And so I guess the way the book is helping me today because we just had to face the one year anniversary of my dad's death. And so I'm in a new grief mode, I'm in a new broken mode, I'm in a new challenging mode. But the testimony of the God who saved me from the lion and the bear tells me he can save me from the the paw of the uncircumcised philistine. So every past victory we emerge from gives us a new level of confidence. It's the testimony to help overcome in the next spiral. So I'm today encouraged facing what I'm up against today. And hopefully everyone listening feels every past victory God brought me through is one more reason to trust him right now.
- [46:57]
Sadie Robertson
That's great. So good. Well, Levi, I'm personally so inspired, so encouraged by the message that you're putting out. Again, your passion message is one of my very favorites. If you haven't listened to it, go listen to it. And you gotta buy this book. You will be so blessed as we've said many, many. And thank you for just your vulnerability to share. Every time I even just have moments like this to interview you, I'm like, okay, let me think of the questions I need to ask for my personal life because you're just such a great example. You and Jenny both and your whole family. She's wonderful. So thanks for being back on the podcast. We will, I'm sure, have you back in the future with all the things that you got going on so good.
- [47:33]
Levi Lusko
Well, literally anytime. And I think we're locked you in for Movement Conference 2026. So we will get out there. Christian and I are going to hike up mountain and cold plunge on the.
- [47:40]
Sadie Robertson
Top of it and you can do.
- [47:41]
Levi Lusko
A spin class with Jenny and the kids can paddle board down a river. It'll be a blast. Oh, if the listener does want to. The first couple chapters are free at Blessed are the spiraling dot com. It's like the the sample at Costco and if they like it, the chimichangas are on aisle 17.
- [47:58]
Sadie Robertson
That's awesome. Definitely check that out. Well, thank you so much, Levi. You're the best.
- [48:02]
Levi Lusko
Love you guys.
- [48:03]
Sadie Robertson
We love you, Ra.