How Your Attachment Style Predicts Your Dating Disasters (w/ Dating Coach Sabrina Zohar)

Summary

Why Won't You Date Me? with Nicole Byer

Episode: How Your Attachment Style Predicts Your Dating Disasters
Guest: Sabrina Zohar (Dating Coach)
Original Air Date: February 14, 2025

Overview

On this special Valentine's Day episode, Nicole Byer welcomes dating coach Sabrina Zohar for a deep, hilariously honest conversation about attachment styles and their profound impact on our love lives. Nicole and Sabrina unpack how our earliest relationships set patterns that reverberate into adulthood, leading to dating “disasters”—plus how to break the cycle, regulate our nervous systems, and embrace healthier relationship dynamics.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

What Are Attachment Styles, and How Do They Show Up in Dating?

• Anxious Attachment: Characterized by hypervigilance, fear of abandonment, and “protest behaviors” (e.g., constantly checking the phone, over-texting, or issuing ultimatums). Both Nicole and Sabrina identify with this style.
• Avoidant Attachment: Marked by emotional distancing, shutting down, but equally rooted in anxiety—only expressed differently.
• Disorganized (Anxious-Avoidant) Attachment: Push-pull dynamic, common in upbringing involving abuse or high unpredictability.
• Secure Attachment: The ideal, but rare, marked by comfort with closeness and independence—"You're lucky to be with me!"

Notable Quote:

“Anxious people are also avoidant. Avoidant people are also anxious… As my anxious ass was running around town, I was avoiding looking at myself.” — Sabrina Zohar [04:00]

How to Recognize Your Attachment Pattern

• Hypervigilance when texting or waiting for a reply ([06:00])
• “Protest behavior”: Dramatic declarations to elicit a partner’s concern

  “I guess I'll go walk into traffic, which is the thing I said all the time… in hindsight, is not okay.” — Nicole Byer [07:00]

• “Repetition compulsion”: Subconsciously dating people who trigger the same wounds as your caregivers ([09:40])

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Regulating the Nervous System—Moving Toward Security

• Somatic Awareness: Checking in with your body—notice tension, physical cues ([11:57])
• Grounding Techniques:
  • Go for a walk
  • Five senses exercise (5-4-3-2-1)
  • Scan surroundings and name things you see ([13:40])
• Journaling: Keep a “trigger journal” and a “glimmer journal” for patterns and wins ([26:47])
• Micro-Practices: Expand your tolerance window by tolerating small discomforts (“Today, I’ll wait a minute before texting back.”) ([27:33])

Notable Quote:

“You're not going to be able to get rid of what happened to you… But what I can change is my reaction to them.” — Sabrina Zohar [13:50]

“It takes 90 seconds for an emotion to run its course… but when we ruminate, it resets the clock.” — Sabrina Zohar [27:45]

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Breaking Dysfunctional Dating Cycles

• Stop People-Pleasing & Self-Abandonment: Both Nicole and Sabrina share stories of dropping everything for flaky partners ([08:32-09:38])
• Self-Compassion: Recognize harmful patterns but don’t dwell in shame ([15:18])

Notable Quote:

“We think we’re such snowflakes, and you’re like, you’re not… It’s just the traumas are different—the core beliefs don’t change.” — Sabrina Zohar [42:18]

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Reframing How You Date

• Instead of asking, “How do I feel about this person?”, ask: “How do I feel with this person?” ([16:36])
• Releasing the need to be “chosen”—focus on whether you are choosing the other ([16:36-17:51])
• Letting partners be an addition, not the center, of your life

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Communication, Boundaries, and Maintaining Self

• Setting Boundaries Without Controlling the Other:
  • “I won’t answer calls after 9pm.” ([61:59])
  • “To avoid resentment…” — cue to express a concern, share impact without blame ([59:05])
• Communicate Intentions Early and Authentically:
  • Don’t declare your “attachment style” on early dates, but do state what you want ([44:59-46:06])
  • “Expectations are unmet needs”—know what you want ahead of time ([46:34])
• Vulnerability Is Key: Showing up as yourself invites the right people.

  “When you show up authentically, like, you show up as you, you're gonna then allow people to accept you as you. And that's the most beautiful part.” — Sabrina Zohar [45:12]

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Change, Growth, and Self-Acceptance

• Healing is a process of thousands of micro-repetitions—be patient and persistent ([43:00])
• Keep the focus on your own growth, not on diagnosing others ([39:22])
• Practice talking to and reparenting the younger, insecure version of yourself

  “What would 10-year-old Nicole want to do right now? I choose you. I love you.” — Sabrina Zohar [41:10]

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Notable Quotes & Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• “I sent him 173 texts because I couldn't sit with the… just non stop back and forth. Just like, please, please don't leave me.”
  — Sabrina Zohar [03:23]
• “The pinch doesn't match the ouch.”
  — Sabrina Zohar [04:56]
• “Am I waiting to be chosen, or do I choose myself?... How do I feel with this person?”
  — Sabrina Zohar [16:36]
• “We want the trauma tingles—just say what it is.”
  — Sabrina Zohar [63:59]
• “I can hurt your feelings. I can live with hurting your feelings, but I can't be and harmful to myself or to you.”
  — Sabrina Zohar citing Matthias Barker [56:52]
• 154:44 Nicole tells a story of seeing a man she was dating on a date with another woman—processing it from a more secure place
• “Expectations are unmet needs.”
  — Sabrina Zohar [46:34]
• “As long as it's coming from an authentic place... I think I'm stunning. Sometimes I just stare in the mirror and I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe how cute you are.”
  — Nicole Byer [48:17]

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Practical Tools & Takeaways

1. Attachment Patterns Are Malleable: You can move from anxious/avoidant toward earned security through regulation and self-awareness ([11:45], [38:17]).
2. Body Awareness: When triggered, ask “How old do I feel?” to interrupt cycles ([11:57], [21:44]).
3. Grounding in the Moment: Try walking, sensory exercises, or “scan for safety” ([13:40], [13:06]).
4. Journaling: Track both triggers and small wins; healing is about repetition, not just epiphanies ([26:47], [27:45], [43:00]).
5. Express Needs and Boundaries Clearly: Communicate what you truly want, and avoid people-pleasing at your own expense ([46:34], [56:52]).
6. Find Compassion for Past Selves: Don’t dwell in shame; treat former versions of yourself with love ([41:10], [47:00])
7. Focus on Compatibility, Not Pleasing: It’s not about molding yourself for someone else ([55:52], [56:04]).

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Memorable/Funny Moments

• Both Nicole and Sabrina recount stories of self-abandonment (leaving parties or faking emergencies to see men who treated them poorly) with humor and honesty ([08:32-09:38]).
• Nicole’s description of “trauma tingles” as the dating spark that isn’t really “healthy” ([63:59]).
• Playful riffing about self-love rituals—hyping up old photos of themselves in awkward phases ([48:51]).
• A classic Nicole Byer moment: “You could come in my eye and tell me it was eye drops.” ([01:57])
• Sabrina’s story of running into someone she’d already slept with on a supposed blind date ([52:31]).
• The infamous “clam chowder in my pussy” letter ([67:23-68:01]).

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Episode Structure with Noteworthy Timestamps

• [02:46] Introduction to Sabrina, her background, and personal attachment stories
• [04:00] Deep dive into anxious and avoidant attachment, the overlap, and childhood links
• [06:56] Personal anecdotes: protest behaviors and dating disaster stories
• [11:45] Sabrina’s journey from anxious attachment to secure—self-regulation and growth
• [13:40] Concrete nervous system regulation tools
• [16:36] Shifting dating frameworks—do you like them or do you want them to like you?
• [27:45] “90 seconds for an emotion to run its course”—journaling and self-compassion
• [34:04] Rundown of all four attachment styles; myths about “secure” attachment
• [44:59] Communicating intentions in dating—don’t announce your attachment style on date one
• [56:52] People-pleasing vs. boundaries—hurtful vs. harmful
• [59:05] “To avoid resentment” communication technique
• [61:21] Love is conditional; boundaries, self-respect, and healthy relationships
• [62:37] Final advice for singles: “Are you ready to receive it?”
• [63:44] Real-life examples of secure relationships in action
• [67:23] Nicole reads a listener’s NSFW “valentine”

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FINAL THOUGHTS

This episode blends Nicole’s trademark humor with Sabrina’s expertise for an illuminating yet accessible guide to untangling your love life from your past. With wisdom, grounded exercises, and riotous relatability, it offers hope that even the toughest attachment patterns can be softened with intention, insight, and self-kindness.

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Listen If You

• Want to understand why you get “unhinged” in dating or relationships
• Need realistic, actionable tools to break old cycles
• Appreciate candid, compassionate talk about mental health, self-worth, and the messy process of healing
• Love a healthy mix of advice, laughter, and wild personal stories

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Guest Info:
Sabrina Zohar – Dating coach, podcaster, TikTok maven. Find her show and resources at sabrinazohar.com and across social media.

Host:
Nicole Byer — Comedian, author, and romantic truth-teller.

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For more, subscribe to “Why Won’t You Date Me?” on your favorite platform and check out this episode’s full video on YouTube!

Transcript

[A]

Love the podcast. You'll love seeing even more of it on video. Watch this full episode on YouTube. Just check the description for the link. Subscribe so you don't miss out. New video episodes drop every Friday.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Please tell me why. Ooh baby. Welcome to another episode of why Won't yout Date Me? A podcast where me, Nicole Byer, has been trying to figure out why I was so single, even though you could come in my eye and tell me it was eye drops. Guest today is a dating coach who has dedicated herself to helping people improve their dating lives, strengthen their relationships and build a better understanding of themselves. And it's our Valentine's Day episode, so I wanted to bring in an expert who can help us all make sense of this crazy thing called love. It's Sabrina Zohar.

[B]

My cheeks are gonna hurt by the time I walk out of this place. Like, I am gonna be in tears. I am so fucking excited to be here.

[A]

I'm so excited. So I found you on Instagram and you were talking about attachment styles, and I recently discovered I'm anxiously attached.

[B]

Oh, my God. Welcome.

[A]

It's awful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When someone is not texting me, I go, they hate me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They want to leave me. They don't want to date me anymore. It's a wrap. And then I'll get a text that's like, can't wait to see you tonight. And I'm like, okay, they don't hate me. Everything is fine.

[B]

I.

[A]

How are you attached?

[B]

Oh, God. Anxiously. So I. I was like the poster child for it. I was telling a story earlier where I was like, I remember a guy ended it with me after three dates and I sent him 173 texts because I couldn't sit with the, like, just non stop back and forth. Just like, please, please don't leave me. Please don't do this. So, like, can I just.

[A]

I. 173 is, how you say, excessive?

[B]

Just a little bit. I don't know. To me, it was normal. No, I'm kidding. But it was normal to me at the time because I was so. So. Because, like, the common misconception, even when we're talking about attachment styles is like, oh, anxious folks. It's like, no, anxious people are also avoidant. Avoidant people are also anxious because as my anxious ass was running around town, I was avoiding looking at myself. What's coming up for me? What's causing this? I'm not. This is a generalized statement, of course, but it's. It's. It's just. I think a lot of people think, oh, no, avoidance just shut down and like, they just don't feel. And it's like, no, they're just super anxious. They don't know how to articulate that.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I know. It's the other. It's the dark side of the attachment.

[A]

Interesting. I read this book. I didn't finish it. It's called Calling in the One. Have you heard of it?

[B]

I haven't. Go on.

[A]

It's the lady who coined consciously uncoupling for Gwyneth Paltrow.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

But it's like a lot of the book is, what are you making up? And what have you made up that that is now coming true because you've made it up. And I think a lot for me. Cause I was like, oh, my God, I'm making up all this stuff is. Cause I was like avoiding stuff.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Which is really interesting. Cause that really didn't hit me till right now.

[B]

Cause the way that we look at it, it's like, okay, so if I'm getting right texting, right, let's we'll use that because it's such a great place to jump off and it's the goddamn hill I will die on. So when we're super anxious, what ends up happening is there's hypervigilance. And hypervigilance is you're constantly scanning for safety, right? And for me personally, I learned that with my childhood. Like my was so inconsistent. So in, out it was. We had a very traumatic childhood. So I was hyper vigilant to watch his facial expressions. What's he saying? What's the tonality? Is there going to be an issue? Right. That kept me safe for a long time and that did its job, but it's not fucking doing it anymore, right? Here I am as an adult being like, why won't you date me? And it's like cuz this person knew you for an hour and you're already asking them like what their Social Security number is. Like the pinch doesn't match the ouch. So when we really start to strip it down, it's like, okay, so when we think about the texting, right? What ends up happening is dysregulated. So that happens. Your body, it's a trigger, right? Oh my God, I'm not safe. And so it goes right into like scan for safety. So when we hear the like, they don't like me, they don't want me. That's anxiety. Because anxiety's job is to recreate your core belief and to convince you that that's what's happening here. So you need to be safe and you need that text. But when we regulate our nervous system, we come back to our bodies and we're like, wait a minute, I don't know this person that well, right. I've had like one date with them, right. When we can really start to challenge that. But to your point, if we're not introspectively looking at things, then we are avoiding looking at what's coming up for us. What's happening in my body? What's the narrative? What's going on? And then we're hell in a handbasket because that person didn't text you for 20 minutes. And next thing you know you're like on the floor crying. You get the text, you pop up and you're like, I'm good.

[A]

Yes. And you feel unhinged, like. Cause you're living it, and that's the ups and downs. But then when you look back at it, you're like, wait, why was I like that? Like, I dated somebody, and we were both anxiously attached, but I also think they were a little bit more avoidant. And both of us would call incessantly. Yeah. And, like, we'd have, like, five missed calls, each from each other. And then, like, voicemail is like, oh, I guess you didn't want to pick up your phone. I guess. I guess I'll go walk into traffic. Which is the thing I said all the time to this person, which, in hindsight, is not okay.

[B]

So you know what you're describing?

[A]

What?

[B]

Protest behavior. Right. I know. So protest behavior is just that. Like, fine, I'll just go do this. Because what you're doing is, I want you to fight for me. Come and tell me that you're gonna be here for me. So I will have a tantrum. Essentially. I will protest. And protest behavior can also be like, stonewalling, shutting down. There are different ways it comes out, but really, the, like, I'm done. I can't do this. Like, I'll just go do this. Cause you're hoping, right?

[A]

What's the hope that they'll come back and be like, no, don't go do that. I'll do this with you.

[B]

I'm coming to hold her hand. And then what ends up happening? Core belief gets reaffirmed. Seat. No one likes me. No one wants me. And it's like, those coping mechanisms or keeping you safe, but they're actually what's causing these people to run away. So it's not really working anymore.

[A]

Mm. This is wild. How did you get into. Cause you went to musical theater school.

[B]

I was the former hot mess. Like, I was her. I was 173texts. Like, I just. I outed myself. But I was the poster child for anxious attachment, like, narcissistic father, people pleading. I learned from a young age, like, emotions are not safe. You're too much. You're too big. There's something wrong with you. My father was just, like, a fucking asshole. Like, there was no other way to say this. And so for me, that messaging was really, really messed up. So I was constant. I used my body to connect with men. You tell me, jump, I say, how high? I had no boundaries. You text me. I will never forget. Oh, my God. When I was 19. Yeah. I lived in the East Village at the time, and I Was, I was in like I was working at a salon. So I was studying in school. I was kind of trying to figure myself out and I was dating a dj, as one does in New York.

[A]

Gotta date a dj, they date a dj.

[B]

Feather in the old cap, old noodle. And he, it was, it was. He got off work at like three in the morning and he texts me come over. And guess who got dressed, left in the middle of the street, walked 10 blocks in New York at 3 in the morning to go hook up with this guy for him to then tell me to leave. Cause he had an early morning and I dragged my ass back. And I remember just being like, wow, that felt like crap. But I wonder if he's going to like me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just constantly self abandoning instead of being like, no thank you, that doesn't work for me. So I was the epitome of that anxiety and I was riddled with it. And so I went to, I went to musical theater school and was like, don't try to be somebody else, girl.

[A]

You got to figure out you first. It's funny you told that story. And I was like, yikes. And then I immediately was like, you've done that? You've done that? You've left friends?

[B]

Yes. You've like.

[A]

I've said out loud, I'm so sorry. I know we're having a really great time, but this, this man just texted me and I gotta go. I simply can't be here.

[B]

Girl. I faked that my roommate was locked out of her apartment at work once so I could go and hook up with a guy and then come back and then let.

[A]

Yeah, like dedication.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you. I like the reframe of this bitch is dedicated dedication. But that's like, that's how I was so desperate for someone to choose me. I just want to tell me that you liked me. Right? And so what ends up happening is like that's also called repetition compulsion. And repetition compulsion is like, you know, Freud did some nice things and that's one of them. And essentially it just means you're going to keep dating the parts of you that are unhealed. So you're gonna continue to date people. Not you, the proverbial you that are like your father. Right. So if I can get this guy to say that I'm not too much, then all of that. Cause see my dad was wrong. And then all that ends up happening is you're like, oh nevermind, they were right. And then it reaffirms your core belief. So for me went to School did all that. Started my clothing line. I have a clothing line called Software. And I was supposed to Shark Tank. And so, like, I was not into any of this. I was doing my mental health. I was on my own journey, right? I was doing me. And they sent me home on set. And after 10 hours of waiting, like, you know, the game. And I was crushed. Like, I was in a really dark place mentally. And they did that again, like, a month later. And I was just like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life. And so I started posting on TikTok, just like, hey, am I the only one struggling with, like, this clickbait shit? They'll, like, do this to get this, send this text. And I'm like, he wants me to come over. But that's the extent of it, right? Like, sending this text. And it felt really inauthentic. And so I started to just turn to the Internet of like, hey, are other people going through this and sharing my experiences? And then my dog passed away, and I just. I completely lost myself. Like, that was the end of it. And when you lose, you know, to me, that was like, the biggest thing. And I told my dad to fuck off. All in that same time frame.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Which was huge, right?

[A]

I had a lot of loss, a lot of changes.

[B]

My nervous system did not know how to acclimate. And so I broke up with this guy I was dating, like, complete. Just, I'm done. Came to San Diego to see my sister, met my now partner, who is with us, and just realized, like, at that time, I was like, I'm going to commit to this. And I started. Then I started my podcast. I just started to sit in this and understand myself better. Started taking courses, understanding the nervous system, neuroscience, and then, voila, here's your girl. But that also came with a lot of experience to show. Oh, you can go from this, utilize all of these things, and then come out an earned, secure person. You don't have to let anxiety ruin your life.

[A]

Is it a conscious thing that you have to do every day to be like, I will react like a normal human being and not be insane? Or has it come naturally to you now that it's a part of your practice?

[B]

Oh, my God, no. Just before, even earlier, we were late to something. And even my partner, he was like, I don't love the way you're talking to yourself. And I was like, am I right? Like, you don't even. It's because it's so subconscious. Like, how many times I've stopped myself and been like, whose voice is that? I'm like, oh, that's your dad. That's not yours. You don't believe that about yourself. But when we think about, like, how do you do this day to day, one thing I would say is start getting really used to asking yourself, like, how do I feel in my body? Right? Like, what are the sensations? What's coming up for me right now? And you're like, oh, wow. Yeah, like I'm sweating or my shoulders are tense. Then asking yourself, like, how old do I feel in this moment? Oh, yeah. So the how old do I feel in this moment? Will really help. So let's say, for instance, the guy doesn't text you, right? And it's like 20 minutes goes by and you're like, okay, the pinch doesn't match the ouch. I don't know this person. Right. Cognitively, I can understand that. But you're dysregulated, so your brain is going, you know, if you and I were having a conversation and someone with a knife came up, we're not going to be able to focus on our needs. We're going to be focusing on getting the fuck out of here.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So when you're dysregulated, it's the same thing, but there's no threat. So your body doesn't know what to do because it's trying to protect you, but there's nothing to protect you from.

[A]

Interesting, right?

[B]

I know. So by just tapping in even, and being like, what's coming up for me? Oh, I'm dysregulated. Okay, I'm going to go for a walk. I'm not going to respond.

[A]

That's what I do now. Whenever I feel wild or like I'm sitting and making things up, I'm like, how about I go walk? My poor dog, he loves a walk. And we don't do them long enough. He's little, so he shits really quick. And I'm like, oh, we should go back inside. Right? But when I'm like, ah. I'm like, let's just take a big long walk. And then I do a thing where I'm like, what is true? What have I made up? And is what I'm making up true? No, I made it up. Okay. You could go back home now and you're fine. But sometimes I'm like, jesus Christ, I wish I didn't have to take a 20 minute walk to, like, be fine about things.

[B]

As you do it more and more, your nervous system, because what it is you're expanding your window of tolerance. And the window of tolerance, essentially is like, when it eat big, right? Every little thing, right? Think of like a stock market. Peaks and valleys, up and down. When you expand the window of tolerance, your nervous system is able to handle the ebbs and flows. Because the reality is you're not going to be able to get rid of what happened to you, right? So whatever happened, wherever that is along the journey, that caused these anxieties, well, I can't change that. But what I can change is my reaction to them. What I can change is, wait a minute. This is not dad. I'm not dating my mother or father. I'm in this body, right? So, like, okay, going for a walk. I love that you can add something else to it. Okay, so you can add. When you go outside first, like, even just stand there and be like, okay, like, wiggle your toes, like, feel your body. And then what I like to do is called scan for safety. And if you move your head from left to right at a very slow pace because you're giving your body and start to call out three things that you see. What that does is it brings you back into the present moment. So let's say I'm looking here and I'd be like, oh, I love. Yeah, there's my favorite pillow. Oh, my God, my neighbor's house, right? And what you're doing is you're turning your prefrontal cortex on to go, oh, she's here right now. You're challenging your thoughts. Then as you start to walk, you can start using the five. Four, three, two, one. Five things I see, four things I touch, three things I smell. Doing these little things. What they do is they break the loops. Because when you start to get on that spiral of like, what's wrong with me? That can go all day. Because that's your core belief. But when we break that and we bring it to now and then go, yeah, what facts do I have to back this thought up? I don't. I guess I did make that up. Okay, do I have a contrary belief? Yeah, he's at work, right? Like, he couldn't text me because he's at work.

[A]

He's working. He's a human being with a job.

[B]

Exactly. And the biggest thing to anybody that's listening is the one thing that we need to let go of shame and blame. There is no place in it. This feel like you're. Because you're being insane. Because what you're doing is you're talking to yourself in the way that people talk to you, and then you're just reaffirming that. So instead, it's like, I can hold space and say, hey, given everything I've been through, this would cause me a lot of anxiety. But I do know that I'm safe in my own body and I have my own back, and I will handle this, and I'll talk to this person if there's an issue.

[A]

Boy, oh, boy. How long did it take you to get like this?

[B]

Eight years.

[A]

Okay, that's not.

[B]

That's not terrible.

[A]

No.

[B]

From 173 texts to. That's just the headline.

[A]

Wait, how long were you dating? You said three dates.

[B]

Like, three to five. Like, it was very light, but to me, it was abandonment. Right. Please don't leave me. There's something wrong with me. You're my wife. Here's the funny thing. I saw him maybe, like, two years later. I was so not into him.

[A]

That's what always happens. Like, I recently just saw someone on Instagram that I used to, like, see, and I was like, why was I so hung up on this person? Why did I like them so much? But I think you just become, like, really addicted to, like, wanting to be liked and wanting to be loved or whatever. And you have a video where it's like, do I like this person, or do I just want them to like me? And boy, oh, boy, I was like, oh, God, that wrong me.

[B]

Especially in the, like, am I waiting to be chosen or do I choose myself? Right? Like, does this satisfy my needs? The one question I'm like, get out of here. Of how do I feel about this person? I don't give a shit. Feelings aren't. They're not facts. How do I feel with this person? Right. Do I feel regulated? Oh, I feel so safe with this person. Wow. Yeah. Like, I can say anything, and they're super, like, calm. Right? Or the green flags are, like. They listen to me. They make eye contact. Like, how sad. Those are the green flags.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

We have to be like, oh, yay. Look for that. And you're like, common decency. But it's been lost. It's a lost art because we're stuck on our phones. We're constantly in a place that's outside of right now, and if we can bring ourselves back to now and just fucking enjoy this moment. Like, I met my partner, we hooked up on the first date, and I left being like, man, I'm never gonna see him again. You know? And I was as honest. I was like, ah, this guy. And the reason that I Walked out. I was like. Because I didn't wanna have expectations. And I was like, I'm gonna enjoy this moment. I'm a woman. I have needs. I had sexual. Acted on them. I had a great time. If we do this again, hip, hip, hooray. And if not, I climbed that tree. And it was a great time. But when you release control to the outcome and you really just surrender, you can then be in the moment to be, like, cool. They're in addition to my life. They're not instead of my life. And that really brings us back to now of like, oh, shit, I've got such a beautiful life. You are lucky to join me, not the other way around.

[A]

Yes. And that is a hard thing that I've been, like, trying to wrap my mind around, like, being like, oh, this person is an addition to my life. And not like, oh, I give up everything and I'm with you and I do everything you want me to do. It's very hard to maintain yourself. I feel like when you're trying, my shoulders are real tense.

[B]

Yeah. And so.

[A]

Okay. Like, they're right at my ear.

[B]

Exactly. And it's like. And even that, it's like, okay, so your body is telling you, like, whoa, this feels uncomfortable. And it's like, that's normal. Cause you're a human. And so instead, like, a lot of people would be like, oh, okay, just. And it's like, no, tighten it. Okay. And then come back. Because what's happening is. What's happening in your body. It's going. There's too much energy. I don't know what to do with this. I have to. So it tenses up. And if we can sit with that and then release it, like, that's such a beautiful technique I have had Troll. I mean, we all know what the trolls on the Internet look like and sound like. And I've gotten that. My friend will be. Punch the air. Punch the fucking troll.

[A]

And I'm like, what do they say? How do they. I feel like, oh, my God. Everything you say, it's like, take it with a grain of salt. Or like, what? Like, you're not being like, this is how. Because I feel like even in the videos, you're like, this isn't just a blanket statement. It's.

[B]

There's nuance.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I get that. You're aggressive. You talk too fast. Why do you have to say fuck so often? It's like, fuck off. Right? Like. Cause I'm from New York.

[A]

You're having a nice time.

[B]

Yeah. It shows a sign of Intelligence. But it's really just because you have to remember too. Like, I'm very triggering, right? Like, I put you to like, hey, face it. And instead of going, yeah, that makes me uncomfortable. No, you change. That's actually a really big sign of anxious attachment style is anxious attachers. When they're so uncomfortable in their current situation, they'll try to change the external instead of understanding the internal. And what's the one thing we have no control over? Everything else. Yeah.

[A]

I dated a person who I was like, hey, I think you need therapy. And they were like, I think I do too. And I was like, so you go. And they were like, no, no, it's just gonna get worse from here. And I said, oh, okay, sign me up, I'll stay. And in hindsight, I was trying to control the, like, the outside stuff. So. Because I was like, if you do this one thing, everything will be fixed. As opposed to being like, oh, yeah, maybe they need therapy or whatever. But we aren't fundamentally a good fit, right? And that's a hard thing for me because I. I also dated this other guy and it was. It had been like three months. He openly was like, I don't like you without saying it. Like, I'm a late person. He was like, that's really fucking annoying. You're always so late. Da, da, da, da. What were you doing? And I'd be like, ha, ha, ha, this is funny. I'm late.

[B]

And there's a part of you. And it's like. Because there's probably a part of you that's like, that's how I deserve to be treated, right? Like, yeah, you're.

[A]

I'm late. So it's like, oh, yeah, you get to be mean about it. But even though I was like, this man does not like me. I was like, hey, do you wanna be exclusive? And he was like, I don't know. I don't. I'm not really feeling it. And I was like, oh, okay, we go out some more.

[B]

Yeah. You're like, just go slow then.

[A]

As opposed to just being like, he's saying no. And you know in your heart that this is a no. Why can't you just like, walk away? But is that a part of anxious attachment where you don't wanna walk away from things?

[B]

Absolutely. Because there's a who am. How dare I walk away? Right? We have to think about, like, when we. About anxious attachment. That's an inconsistent caregiver. So you're like, I'll do anything to keep you. I just don't want you to leave me. And it's like, okay, well, let's talk about abandonment for a second. When we say that about they abandoned me, it's like, what does that actually mean? Abandoning means that your life would be at risk. Oh, yeah. So like somebody truly, like, true definition of abandonment. Like an example I always use is if you're out, you know, hunter gatherers, right. If we were out in the fucking wild and my tribe left me, I can literally be abandoned. I could be eaten by the animals. I couldn't survive, sustain myself. You are not abandoned because you had one date with somebody and they didn't call you back, right? Yeah, but we feel that. Because what happens is. Let's talk neuroscience. We have two parts of the brain. I'm really going to refer to prefrontal cortex stop growing at 28. So 28 on. Ever notice how like high schoolers, you could tell them like not to drink and drive and they're like. And then they do it anyways?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They don't have the cognitive critical thinking skills to be like, wait, how is that going to impact me? I don't think this is a great idea. Let me think of future me. They just implement. So when we get dysregulated, that goes offline. My friend Britt Frank is this brilliant neuropsychotherapist and she describes like an office building. At the top are all the fancy executives and everything else is like the inmates running the asylum. And at the bottom floor there's the firefighters that protect everything. When we get dysregulated, all the top functioning and all the good shit goes offline and completely shuts off. So where do we go then? We go back into our amygdala, which is the limbic part of our brain, which stopped growing when you were six. That's where we hold onto fears and emotions. So going back to the how old do I feel? Question, when I get dysregulated, prefrontal cortex shuts down. So you went back to being a kid again, Being like, that's okay. Yeah, yeah. Tell me how jump to jump and I'll say, how high? Like you just tell me whatever you need. Because that's what you learned as childhood. Because your prefrontal cortex completely shut offline and was just saying, just survive. Get them to choose you. So when we regulate and come back to now and go, wait a minute, but do I choose you? Asking a question turns it back on to then be like, oh, wait, fuck this guy. I don't fucking choose him.

[A]

He sucks this Is so wild that you had to go to school to specifically learn this. I feel like someone should tell you in high school, hey, you're gonna be all fucked up till 28.

[B]

I know. I'm like, they don't teach us our taxes in school, right? I'm like, but you taught me how. Like, x plus Y. I don't fucking remember.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. The only thing that I really retained from school is the. The multiplication tables of nine, because you do it with your fingies. So nine times five is 45. Four. Five.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Nine times three is 27.

[B]

Okay. So now I'm learning new things. That's really cool.

[A]

It's never gonna help.

[B]

It's never gonna help me.

[A]

Never at all.

[B]

I remember being told I wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom, which is really messed up.

[A]

That's weird. I don't understand why they do that in school. It's like, I have to use the bathroom. So now I have to ask. You get a key, maybe sit down for a little bit, and then I get to go. Just let me go.

[B]

In school, we had to get them to sign our book, and I had to bring the book to the bathroom. I was like, what am I. What am I going to use this thing for?

[A]

Yeah. What am I going to do? Smoke in the bathroom? Yes. Because that's what I did in high school.

[B]

You're like, actually, though. But I wish, like, more than ever, I wish they taught us this stuff in school.

[A]

It would be nice.

[B]

And then I ask them, like, you think they'd retain it, though, right?

[A]

Not at all. But I do feel like if someone in high school was like, you get dysregulated and that causes you to have reactions to things, I feel like I'd be like, oh, I'm dysregulated. I think I would remember the word dysregulated.

[B]

Right? You know, and we also have to remember, too. It's like, where do we learn all this? At home, Right? So for me, my father doesn't believe in therapy. No, He's a narcissist. He doesn't believe in therapy. So what am I gonna do? Go home and be like, dad, guess what I learned? He's gonna be like, that's stupid. Oh, okay. So what we see is just our environment. Right. Whatever it is. And, like, I think the common misconception I hear is like, I have so much anxiety, but I had the best childhood. And it's like, those are not mutually exclusive. You can have amazing caregivers, like, I would set myself on fire for my mom. I love this woman more than the ends of the earth. That bitch failed me as a child. You know what I mean? Like, I love her, but she was not the parent I needed her to be. She didn't teach me the things I need. She walked. Got walked all over by my father. So when we look at that, it's like, oh, right, yeah. Where did I learn that from? That was my first encounter for everything. So how would I have even known anything different? How would I have known anything?

[A]

Yeah, I watched this TED Talk. And by watched, I mean I skipped around. The man said that when you're, like, looking for relationships, you're looking to create the first relationship that you saw, which is usually your parents. And I was like, oh, that's fucked up. Yeah, that's so fucked up. Like, my dad, really, he. He was smart. He was a. An engineer and stuff. And he really wanted me to, like, like math and stuff like that. And it's not like I felt like I was rejected. I guess I felt like I was rejected because I was more into the arts or whatever. So I feel like I've taken that into dating, being like, hey, you're gonna reject me. I'm gonna win you over, and I'm gonna be really cool. And after watching that, I was like, well, how do you. But then how do you get out of the. The, like, the cycle of looking for what you saw as a kid, right?

[B]

So we can use hypotheticals, right? So let's say, for instance. And, like, even as you're describing that, it's like, that's a perfect example of, like, your dad wasn't a bad guy, right? Like, he didn't do that to hurt you. But what's the messaging, right? A little frittata brain when you're fucking.2, and it's not formed, what that says is, okay, do this and dad will be there for you, right? It doesn't mean that he didn't accept you for who you are. But the messaging might have been, no, do this. So what does that teach me? Who I am isn't accepted, right? Like, they don't approve of me for who I am. So even just understanding that, of being able to say, I love my parents, but they taught me things that weren't necessarily accurate. So how I would suggest really doing that is like. Again, what. Let me back up. How I would suggest doing that is a couple of things. One, I would get a journal. And in that journal, you have a trigger journal, and you have a glimmer journal in the trigger journal. Okay. Pen to paper is a different part of the brain that gets activated in the trigger journal. Every single time you get triggered, you write it down, right? So he didn't text me.

[A]

Boop.

[B]

Okay, what happened? My chest started to tighten. I was sweating. Okay, what was my narrative? There's something wrong with me. This person doesn't like me. That's it. Right? Because it's just important to start to be aware of, like, oh, that's where my thoughts keep going. That's the routine. That's the pattern. I'm not good enough. I'm not worried. Right? Insert the core belief here. Then we have a glimmer part of it. But today I said no to somebody instead of saying yes. I'm proud of myself. Because it's important for us to not just look at the patterns, but to also look at the wins, right? Micro yeses. Because we have to think about the nervous system. If you just think about New Year's resolutions, right? I'm gonna lose 100 pounds. I'm gonna grow out my hair. I'm gonna do all that. You last a day. Cause you're like, it's too big of a jump. I'm going from I literally never left my house to all of a sudden, I'm gonna go out to bars, right?

[A]

Like, it's not sustainable.

[B]

So we wanna look at this healing journey as like a very small micro yes. So if that means normally, for instance, I would freak out and text this person a thousand times for me, then today I'm gonna say, I'm gonna put a minute in between and set my clock. And I'm not gonna say anything that's just expanding. And you sit in that discomfort of like, this feels awful. I don't like this feeling. Okay, where is it? I'm gonna come outta my skin. Okay, just sit with it. Sit with it. Takes 90 seconds for an emotion to run its course. But when we're wait, it takes how long? 90 seconds to actually, right now, let's say you were feeling sad. If I had you close your eyes and just sit with the emotion after 90 seconds, you'd be like, oh, I feel a lot better. But what happens is the narrative starts that clock. So every time I don't feel worthy, I'm. You're. You just start that all over again and you ruminate. So then if like, oh, wow, okay, I sat in this right now. I felt this in my body. How old did I feel? I felt like a kid again. Like, I felt like I was Trying to get my dad to approve of me. Shit. So that's the part of me that's trying to come out. Like I love parts work, ifs. And so. Okay. That's the part of me that's trying to protect me. Okay, so what is this thought trying to protect me from now? I don't want this person to leave me. Okay, well. But this person's not dad. They're not going to leave you. You notice how we can start to with compassion and love, discredit those thoughts and come back to okay, I'm not gonna say anything. I'm gonna allow this. And it's just, it's micro movements that over time people think in therapy, these big aha moments. Yeah, it's nice. But that's not what heals you. What heals you is the decisions that you make after that. That I know, that's wild.

[A]

That's real wild.

[B]

The choices.

[A]

This, that is interesting. I never think about it like that. Cuz sometimes I'll have like epiphanies and I'm like wow. But then I'll forget my epiphany and then be like wait, this is bad again. And I'm like, oh yeah, my epiphany. And I'm like wait, what?

[B]

The epiphanies are amazing, but they, and they hold a place. But like I remember I started to change the way I dated. Like I'll never forget, I was dating this guy and like he was super emotionally unavailable. But like I couldn't tell at first. He was very. I'll never forget, he was so well rehearsed that my best friend, she was, she met him when he like dropped me off at my house after like our fifth date. And she looked at me and she said, either this is your husband or we're getting fucking played. And I was like, we'll find out.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Long story short, it only took like another month for me to realize it. He like was out of town, he came back in, blah blah blah, we were together. He like stayed at a hotel that night instead of staying with me. And it was very clear there was an issue. The old me would have completely self abandoned and been like, please just come back. What can we do? No, he showed up at my house, I had his suitcase packed and he just looked at me and he goes, babe, you know I'm emotionally unavailable. And I said, oh, I know, now get the fuck off my porch.

[A]

Wait, he said to you, you know I'm emotionally unavailable? Yeah, that was like to have the self awareness. But then Continue a relationship with somebody.

[B]

As if I'm gonna be like, that's fine. Come on in.

[A]

Let me.

[B]

Let me make you a. That's where I realized, like, I can't change this. I cannot. This is above my pay grade. You need to go. You need to work on your shit. And so I told him, get the out. And that was it. We didn't speak. That that moment changed the way I dated. Because in that moment, I was like, you just did something so scary. You stood up for yourself and you're okay. You're alive, you're okay. Oh, my God. And so then it becomes. And you do it again, right? And you're like, you start. That's how you build confidence. You're like, yeah, I didn't text them today.

[A]

Score.

[B]

Right? That's how you build it over time. Because then you start to retrain your nervous system to being like, that's not a fear of mine anymore.

[A]

Boy, oh, boy, that's wild. I once dated a man for a very long time who was like, I don't want to. I don't want to be in a relationship. And I said, oh, okay, well, what do you want? He's like, I just wanna see where this goes with the flow. And it went so far. And we were talking about moving in together and stuff, and I was like, but you're not even my boyfriend. And that was just like in the back of my brain. But I wish I had the wherewithal in that moment to be like, oh, if you don't want a relationship and I do, then we want different things and we shouldn't be doing this. But I did learn a lot, right?

[B]

It's like. And what happens is, like, you didn't stand up for your needs and that's okay, right? Like, totally. We can. We can look back at that, Nicole, and be like, you didn't know better. And I am. I self abandoned. I'm so sorry I wasn't there for you. We don't need to shame and blame, but having that compassion of like, oh, she really just wanted to be chosen. But now I get to make decisions. And that's why we regulate our nervous system. Not because people think that regulating is just like, oh, it just goes away. No, I'm still sad. I'm just regulating.

[A]

You still have to work on it.

[B]

Just what it means is I have trust. When I get to regulate and I come back, I think I'm no longer in survival, right? I'm no longer. I have to do this. I have to run instead. It's wait. I get to make a choice here. And in that moment you could say, you might not want a relationship. I do. So I'm going to stand in that power. And it's remember, if I don't stand for something, I fall for everything that's good. If I don't stand up for myself, who will? No one is going to stand up for me like I will.

[A]

God, I love this. Wait, we do have to take a.

[B]

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[A]

What are the other attachment styles? I only really know Anxious. I like stopped on that. I was like, that's me. But there's anxious avoidant.

[B]

So there's three insecure. Wow. Okay. It's one of those things that there's like three insecure ones. Secure. Then there's all these amalgamations people have come up with and it's like, just stick with the fucking three. So secure Is what we all, you know and secure. I think so. The book attached pictured. 50% of the population is secure. That has been debunked.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think so.

[B]

Not like, not by a long shot. But what does secure really mean? Like, I have one girlfriend ever that I met who is truly the most secure human being I've ever met. Two parents that were incredibly loving, held space for their kids, let them. Taught them that emotions were safe. Taught them that there were as a place for them and their thoughts. Right. They were there and they showed them what independence and interdependence looks like.

[A]

What's interdependence?

[B]

Relationship co creating. Oh, okay. Yeah. So like we can be together, but then I can also have my space away from you. Right? And I can go. She was a beautiful model. Like, aside from her just her looks. Because there's plenty of insecurities that can come every time any guy. Cause she wasn't scared to lose them. She would be like, you're lucky to have me. It's not the other way around, baby.

[A]

Boy, oh boy.

[B]

Right? And it didn't come from arrogance on her part. She was just really authentic of like, this doesn't work for me. Because she just wasn't scared. She had so much support. And that's a beautiful thing. But very rarely do we see that. Then we have the three insecure attachments. So we have anxious as we talked about. And the anxious is think of it as, I need you in my life. I don't want you. Right? Yes, I need you. I have to have you. That's the usually prevalent in homes with like, inconsistency or hot and cold parent. Right. In and out. It doesn't need to be abuse, right? It could just be that your parents worked a lot and you just didn't know when you were gonna see them next. You would always act out hoping to get their attention. So that's the anxious. Then we go into the avoidant. Other side of the spectrum, but very similar core beliefs. Right? So the anxious person's biggest fear is fear of abandonment. Please don't leave me. Don't leave me alone. The avoidant person's biggest fear of. Fear of rejection. Their whole thing is like, so my partner's more anxious, more avoidant leaning. I'm more anxious. So all that means is when we get triggered. And that's the misconception. People think, oh, he's avoidant. It's like, no, that guy's just an asshole. Right? Like avoidant means you need to be triggered for this to come out okay. Right. So if I'm just being here, being like, whatever and ignoring you, it's like, no, you're just.

[A]

You're just being rude.

[B]

You're being rude versus, hey, I really like you, and I'd love to see where this goes. If someone's like, this doesn't feel safe, like, oh, my God. Then they just shut down. Or like, can you just, like, give me a minute? Like, I just. I like. Or they just can't process. Right. So avoidance. They're anxious, but their biggest fear is rejection, Being ridiculed for who they are as a person. And I see that with my sister. I love my sister to the moon, the stars and the sun, but she was always put down for who she was as a kid. And so she just. What her thought was, what's the point? What's the point of even saying anything? So she shuts down and goes inward. Doesn't mean she doesn't care. She's dying inside. But she taught at a young age. This isn't safe. It's not safe to have emotions. You're gonna lose your caregiver because of it. So that's the misconception. People think avoidance are just these cold, callous people, and it's like they're in their own version of hell. Internally, it's just not external. Then where we hear. Have you heard the like, I'm anxious and I'm avoidant, right? Yes. So, no, what that actually means is, like, when you're anxious with some people, but avoidant with others, that just means that, like, probably it's because this person really likes you, and you're like, I don't want. It goes against your core belief. True disorganized attachment, which is the amalgamation of anxious and avoidant, is the push, pull. Have you ever dated anybody? That one night you're like, I feel so connected to this person. And then the next morning you're like, what happened to you? That's the. So the disorganized. A lot of homes of abuse think about, they want love, so they come closer to you, and then they're scared of it, so they run. And let's think about, like, I want my parent to love me. And then that person hits me, and you're like, I'm confused. I want love, but I'm scared by it. That's where we see that disorganized. And it's really, really tough. So those are the main attachment styles. Now here's my issue with attachment theory. As much as I love it is being fucking weaponized like it's nobody's business. Like, I had. I was on a podcast and she said, what do you think of this first date question? And I was like, shoot. And she goes, I was on, and he asked me what my attachment style was, and I was like, burn it, get rid of it. First of all, people suck at self identification. Second of all, if I told you I was avoidant, your first thought's gonna be, I don't wanna do this.

[A]

Well, I don't wanna do this exactly.

[B]

Seems terrible, but it's really just. It's not giving space for. And same with anxious. If you told them, well, I'm anxiously attached, they're pro. She's gonna be clingy, too needy. And it's like, but that doesn't mean that's who I am. That just means it's how I attach to people. When I get triggered, I can work through that. So the anxious shit, Anxious, avoidant, disorganized, anything like that, you can go towards earned, secure, but that's doing the work.

[A]

But do you think it's okay, like, down the line, maybe you're like two or three months in to be like, I get a little anxious.

[B]

100% on, okay, you can express yourself, but we just don't want to self identify. I have, like, people ask me, like, when do I tell this person I have anxious attachment? And I'm like, why the would you never. Don't do. Because you that what you're saying is, I don't change, right? I'm fixed. And it's like, attachment style.

[A]

My therapist said she was like, you are anxiously attached, but there is a world where, you know, you meet somebody and you feel very secure in that attachment, and then suddenly you're securely attached. But that's not to say you don't break up with that person and then become anxious again with somebody else. And I was like, bitch, stop telling me the truth.

[B]

Get out of here. And it's so true because, like, I've had partners that really trigger my anxious attachment more. And then I've had people that, like, barely trigger it. Right. Because of the way that they interact with me and vice versa. So I think we need to stop looking at this as like, either I need to be healed in order to be in a relationship that doesn't exist.

[A]

No, not at all. I wish if I had to be fucking healed to be in a relationship, it's gonna take a long time.

[B]

It is six feet under, right?

[A]

Yeah, truly, I'll be dead.

[B]

It'll be dead. And the other side of the coin is, like, knowing your attachment style is a beautiful thing for yourself. But I don't know about you, girl. I see this all the time. Of, like, the guy I was dating was so avoidant. You have no problem describing them. You have so much data on them. Tell me, you, what's your part in this? Right. What do you allow? I was dating a narcissist. I was married to a narcissist. It's not long.

[A]

Do you mind me asking? A year.

[B]

We dated for, like, six months, and then we were together for, like, we moved in, and then we got married. So a year and a half, Two total.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Did not last very long. And to this day, people always be like, oh, well, he must be all these things. And I'm like, but so was I. I played a part in that dynamic. It's sure he is not a good person. Like, I wouldn't say, like, go to bat for him, but I played a part in that dynamic because I allowed it. I. If I thought about what would the healed version of me say? Or, like, the person that has more healing. Oh, she would have set boundaries. Didn't have any. He gaslit me, and I took it right.

[A]

I was.

[B]

We were reenacting how my father and I would fight. I would be on the floor crying. He would walk out, and it was like, holy smokes. I played into that.

[A]

It is interesting when you take a step back and you're like, I allowed myself to be treated this way. And it's interesting because, like, I've been in bad relationships where I'm like, I don't know how I stayed around for so long. I'm like, no, no. Yes, you do. You know, you stayed around because you wanted to be picked, and you said, I'm willing to take whatever. Whatever. Like, however you're gonna treat me, I'm just gonna take it because I just want it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's a sad thing to realize. But then it's also pretty empowering because you're like, okay, well, if someone cancels on me, I'm not gonna be sad about it. I'll just go make other plans or whatever. I'm not gonna be upset. Or if they cancel too many times and I go, oh, then maybe we don't go out or whatever. It's tough, though.

[B]

Very tough. Because what you're doing is you're holding yourself accountable consistently and showing. But that's what you're also doing is you're letting little you know. Right. Like, if we think about 5 year old Nicole, 10 year old Nicole, right? Or Sab. I was gonna say Sassab was my nephew, calls me, but little me, right? And when I look at her and I'm like, I choose you, I love you. And like, I always think about, like, what would she want to do right now if she were with me? I'm like, we're gonna go get my favorite meal, right? That person canceled on me. I'm like, I'm taking myself out to my favorite Thai restaurant. I'm gonna go for a walk, I'm gonna watch my favorite movie. I'm gonna take a bath and I'm gonna do something for me to show my. For me. I don't need to blame, shame, criticize, put myself down, see? Cause there's something wrong with you.

[A]

Blah, blah.

[B]

That again, is your core belief. And the more we keep doing that. What's that screw tape again? Whose voice is that? Is it me? Do I really believe that there's something wrong with me? Or was I taught that?

[A]

Yeah. I had to really get over the whole I'm too much because I'm not. I'm fine. I have a nice time. Mostly all the time.

[B]

And here's the thing. You'll be too much, right? But it appears like you're not too much. It's. Maybe your needs are too much because they don't have the bandwidth to satisfy those needs.

[A]

Again, my therapist said the same thing.

[B]

She's a smart lady. And it's. And that's the beauty of psychology is what I love about it is like, it really. We all think we're so different. We think we're such snowflakes. And you're like, you're not, right? You're not. I'm not. We were all very similar. The traumas might be different, right? I would hope that we didn't all have the same childhood. But the core beliefs don't change because that's ultimately the messaging that we receive. And I don't need to, I don't need to allow myself because I do get to control what my thoughts are. But like anything else, it's like a muscle, right? If I go to the gym, do you think I just go once and that's it? It's like this. I need to go every. I need to do that every day. So my friend told me a really fun fact. It takes 300 repetitions for your body to remember something. Oh, so like 300 times of doing something. Do you know how long it takes for your brain to have A new neural pathway.

[A]

No.

[B]

3,000 repetitions.

[A]

No, that's too many.

[B]

It's a lot of. It's a lot of 3,000 repetitions, though. And so it shows you of like, oh, right. Have I chosen myself 3,000 times? Have I spoken to myself with kindness 3,000 times? Have I let myself make a different choice? Right. Have I validated myself? We don't do that often, right? Oh, I'm insane. I'm crazy. See, I'm being too much. Like, I'm too needy versus no. I have every right to ask for this from this person, and if they can't satisfy it, that's okay.

[A]

And that is very hard to do.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

It's very hard to ask for what you need, knowing that that person, A, maybe can't give it to you, or B, will try and it still might not be enough. It's very. Dating is really hard.

[B]

It is. But you get to choose your hard, right? Because, like, to me, I thought about this the other day. I was like, getting up in the morning is hard for me, right? I have to get up. I have to do 17. I have to dial my tinctures and drinks and this, and I have to do my nails and my hair and that. And I was like. As I was getting ready, I was like, to a lot of people, this is hard. To me, it's not. I get to choose what makes things hard. And the reason it's so hard is because there's nothing that's going to trigger you and mimic your caregivers closer than a relationship. So having a romantic relationship is going to trigger all that shit. But you hurt in relationships and you heal in relationships. So, yes, it's so hard. But so is what you do. Your career is hard to a lot of people. It's effortless for you. You are such a natural at it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it's like podcasting to some people is so hard, right? We choose our hard.

[A]

That is interesting because I have had people be like, I don't know how you do it. And I'm like, because I need validation and I need people to ha, ha, ha at me. It makes me feel good, right? And it makes me feel happy when someone comes to me and they're like, oh, I was sad and I listened to your podcast and it made me happy. Or I saw your standup show and it made me happy. I'm like, ha, ha, that's great. Huzzah. Yeah, I guess that is interesting. You choose your hard. Wait, you said that on a first. Like, you don't need to reveal your attachment style. But you have said that, like, on a first date, you should be very upfront with what you want.

[B]

Yeah. So in that sense of like, I don't need to say that I'm gonna get anxious. Cause if you don't call me, I'll probably freak out at my house. It's like, you don't need to know that. But like, when I met my partner, first date, I walked in and I was like, I don't know, nothing to lose. I just lost my dog. I just lost my career. Like, I just lost everything. And I was like, fuck, is this some dude on hinge? And so I asked like, what are your politics? Right? And like, it wasn't just spitfire. It was like, okay, conversation. But I wasn't shying from it. What are your politics? What are this? What are this? Because for me, I looked. I get to decide if this is gonna work for me. So why would I spend more time with you if it's not going to work? And to this day, like, every time I've asked him or anytime anyone asked him of, like, hey, so like, what made you like Sabrina? And he's like, the question she asked. Because that's the woman I was looking for. When you show up authentically, like, you show up as you, you're gonna then allow people to accept you as you. And that's the most beautiful part. So that you can haha. And then someone will haha with you and you're like, cool, I don't have to convince you to do this. You authentically show up. So for me, yeah, talk about intentions of like, hey, I'm really intentional with the way that I date. Like, I'm not. Just because I'm here doesn't mean I want to marry you. But that means if we're going to spend time together, that we're actually going to be building something out into the casual thing.

[A]

See, that's always so scary.

[B]

What's scary about it?

[A]

Because they might go, oh, I'm not looking for anything serious. But then I'm like, then why are you dating? Why not be up front before. Before we even meet? Just be like, I'm fucking. I'm not dating, I'm just fucking. I guess when I date, like, I think I go in with too many expectations. And how do you get around? I guess it's just by being like, I'm gonna live in the now. I'm just gonna have a nice time.

[B]

Expectations are unmet needs. So we start to start looking and saying, well, can I satisfy. What expectations can I satisfy within myself? How can I articulate that my expectations are so like, again, my expectation would be if we're going to continue to hang out, then that means we're building something. I'm very clear about that. You know what I'm expecting from this? You know what I'm looking for here? And so what we first have to do is like, even that, like this feels scary. Then I would challenge and go, how old do you feel when you say things like that? You don't have to give me an answer right now, but like, that would be of like.

[A]

I guess when I say dating things are scary, it brings me back to like, like high school. Yeah. Have you seen the Substance? It's a movie with Demi Moore.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Well, there's a monster at the end. And that's what I felt like all through high school. I was very awkward.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Very, very awkward looking. And whenever I'm like dating and thinking about dating, that's what I feel. I feel very awkward and like the monster.

[B]

So. And that, and it's so valid because that was an experience that you had. But you notice how the past becomes the present. And all of a sudden we project that onto the other person of. But I'm scared you're gonna reject me. And it's like, oh, I've already rejected myself because I call myself a monster. Good, right?

[A]

That was wild.

[B]

So, and like my therapist called me on my shit. I said something and I said like, well, it's one thing I do, right? And she stopped me and she goes, cut that shit. And I was like, what? And she goes, what's this with self deprecation stuff? She was really, you do one thing right. And I was like, oh my God, she's right. But it's true, right? So what happens is like, okay, so that's the Nicole that's coming out. And what we can do is look at her and be like, oh my God, you're not a monster. I choose you. I think you're fucking am. And anybody that doesn't see that, fuck em, right? And it takes more work. It wouldn't just be one thing, but that's, that's the work, right? Notice how you're like, oh shit, you're right. That's not the me right now. Because the me right now thinks I'm goddamn amazing.

[A]

Yes. And it is interesting because younger, I felt like a different. I was like, oh, yeah, you're. You're zitty and nasty. And even now when I have zits I'm like, whatever. That zits lucky to be on my face. Ooh wee. Now I, like, have a very inflated so words that I think I'm stunning. Sometimes I just stare in the mirror and I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe how cute you are.

[B]

God was so good to me. Right? And as long as it's coming from an authentic place.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Then it's like, it took me a while.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah.

[B]

And what I would encourage is get a photo of you from high school. That monster.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Get a photo and put that in the mirror. Say it to her.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Say it to her. You're beautiful and you are amazing and you are fantastic. And then start to see how you change the way you speak to yourself. Yourself.

[A]

Oh, my God, Sabrina. Okay, I will do that. I think I really hate my senior picture. It's like, perfect.

[B]

We're going to bring out the senior picture. No one in the planet besides us to see it. And that's beautiful.

[A]

You're absolutely right. And I'll hide it if someone comes in.

[B]

Exactly. All of a sudden it's like in the. The movies. You're just. I don't know what it's like.

[A]

What are you talking about? It's not. Yeah. What?

[B]

That's my cousin. She just so happens to look just like me.

[A]

I had a bunch of vision boards in my house and I brought a boy home, and I had to be like, oh. Because all of it was like, have good sex. Find love. Love, love, love, love, love. And I was like, oh, no, you're gonna think I'm crazy.

[B]

Not a good look. It's like when I was in high school and my mom used to put my back brace on my bed, and when somebody would come over, I would jump off and throw it on and be like, hi. Just laundry I didn't want to do.

[A]

Why do you. Why did you have a back brace? It's for scoliosis.

[B]

Scoliosis. I had a nap. I was awkward. Like, that's why I'm like, oh, I know my high school me. I'm like, I had short, spiky hair. I had gold braces. And then I had the night guard, the full on. I had a back brace that started up here and went down here. Put me in every night. That was fucking awkward.

[A]

I really love spiky hair. Gold braces. Oh, sir, that is a choice. That makes me so happy. I love that gold.

[B]

Like, all of it was gold. And I had like a little pixie cut, like Kelly Osbourne haircut and I wanted it pink but my mom was like, no.

[A]

She was like, we'll do the spiky. That's all we could do at this present time.

[B]

Enjoy the cut.

[A]

Okay, let's take a break and we'll be right back. Quick time to choose a meal deal with McValue. The five dollar McChicken meal deal, a dollar six McDouble meal deal, or the.

[B]

New dollar seven Daily Double meal deal.

[A]

Each with its own small fries, drink and Four Piece McNuggets. There's actually no rush. I'm just excited for McDonald's.

[B]

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[A]

Worst dates you've been on?

[B]

Oh God, the worst dates I've been on. I'm trying to remember. Nothing is really like, there wasn't anything that it was like, oh God. It was more of just the like, fuck. Like you show up and you're like, God damn it. This person's nothing like I thought they were. Or I mean, I've just had some like. I've had an embarrassing experience like I'll never forget. I went on a. It wasn't a double date per se, but my friend was trying. She was like, come me and the guy I'm seeing, he has this other guy and I show up and I was like, oh my God, the guy's really hot. And I told her, I was like, okay, like hook it up. And they get in the cab after and it was in the Brooklyn. And she's like, no. So Sabrina's interested and he looks at her and he's like, I slept with her two Years ago. I had no fucking clue. He had different hair. It was like one of those where you're like, oh. And then she said it. I was like, oh, I remember that.

[A]

That is very funny.

[B]

Yeah. So things like that.

[A]

That is deeply funny. That's like sitcom level funny. Like we've already slept together. Oopsie.

[B]

And then she was like. And then she texted me and she. And she's like, are you fucking kidding me? And I was like, sorry. So stuff like that happens to me. Cause like I tried for me, when I would go on dates, like, I tried to vet them as best as I could. Like I wanted to be a better buyer. So I've definitely had those dates where you're like, I can't wait like five more minutes. Like just make this polite, get the drink and get the fuck out. But. And I've had some dates where I'm like, wow, you were a lot cooler than I thought you were gonna be. And then I've had the guys where you're like, this is a really good act. But I don't. Do you have a bad date story? Anything that comes to mind.

[A]

I feel like I've told all of them. I did go on a date. Maybe I didn't tell this one. I went on a date where maybe Mars will remember. I went on a date with this. Oh no, I wasn't on a date. I was out with a friend and the dude I was currently dating walked in with the girl he was also seeing. Cuz we hadn't had a talk about exclusivity yet.

[B]

Fun.

[A]

Have I told you this? Maybe, but I'd love to hear it again. Okay. And I was like, oh my God, this him. And I like turned to my friend, I was like, that's the man. I was literally out with him yesterday. And he was like, oh no. He's like, well, maybe they won't sit near us. And I was like, maybe they won't. And then they sat directly behind me, of course. And then the girl he was with recognized me and wanted to tell me that she liked me. And he told me later that he was like, oh, you can't really bother people.

[B]

Leave her alone.

[A]

You just gotta leave her alone. And then they ended up leaving rather quickly, like after a drink. Drink. And I was like, you know what? We haven't had the conversation yet, so I'll just. I texted him the next day. I was like, hey, awkward. But like, we haven't really talked about it. I understand that you're seeing other people. I'm also Seeing other people. And he was like, hey, thanks for being so chill. And I was like, I can't believe I was so chill. But it was one of those things that I had a little bit of time because I was like, truly tripping in the moment. I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm not enough. But then the next day I was like, what do you mean you're not enough? You've only been seeing him for like two months, and you've seen him three times in those two months, and you have not. You literally haven't talked about it yet. So it's okay. And I was so proud of myself.

[B]

That's. And that right there is exactly why we say put space between feeling to fucked, right? Because that trigger in the moment, you're like, I have to react. And it's like, no, I can actually take space. I can let myself think about this and process it, and then I can respond. The next day, I. God, when I dated in New York, I mean, it's, you know, as you're talking, you're like, oh, all of it floats around. I was like, I blocked that out of my brain. But I will just say I've had my fair share of experiences. And what you know is like, you learn from that, right? Like that right there. Had that not happened, you wouldn't have noticed. Like, I'm really proud of myself for growing because I made a choice. I made a different choice in that moment when I regulated.

[A]

And I feel like if this was like Nicole in her 20s, I would have been like, you are seeing somebody else.

[B]

If it were Sabrina in her 20s, I actually, I would have gone to the table and like, what are we doing here? But that's where, like, because it's not even people. Oh, you're just mature and you're like, no, you grow up. Right? Like, you actually understand, like, growing up means coming back home to my body. And like you said, not being enough or something wrong with me. It's like, where did I get that from? Maybe it's just that they have a different connection and this person's exploring what works for them. Because we're not actually compassion compatible. Yes.

[A]

And that is also hard to understand. The whole compatibility thing is hard for me because I'm like, but we could be compatible. Tell me what you want and I'll do it. And that's like, no, that's people pleasing.

[B]

I won't.

[A]

I'm not a good cook. I'll never be a good cook if you want me to Cook for you. The wrong. Wrong girl. I can't. I can order so good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I can order so many things to my house. It's really nice and easy. But, yeah, there's just, like, some things I'm just not going to do do. And I've really learned to be like, yeah, I don't do that. I'll go camping once. That's it.

[B]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[A]

I'll do it one time.

[B]

Glamping.

[A]

Maybe you'll look in a tent for one time.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And if I love it, I'll do it again. I just know I won't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, I'm in the. I'm in the zone right now where I'm like, I'll do it one time and we can have that memory that one time I did it. I will not do it again.

[B]

No.

[A]

I'm trying to stop being a people pleaser and have a little bit of boundaries.

[B]

People pleaser. I'll help you with that. There's a therapist I love Matthias Barker, and he always says, when you're thinking about people pleasing, I want you to think of it this way. Am I being hurtful or harmful? I can hurt your feelings. I can live with hurting your feelings, but I can't be and harmful to myself or to you. And so the example he uses, like, sorry, I can't. Like, you know, a friend comes into town and they're like, nicole, I'm only here for one night. The people please be like, okay, let me make this work. I don't want to say no. Instead, it's, hey, I'm so sorry. You didn't make this plan with me. I can't do it. Right. That's the. I can hurt your feelings. Harmful being like, my daughter has a recital. Mommy's gonna go to the spa for the day. And it's like, now that's just being harmful. You didn't say no because that comes from a place. It's like, you didn't need to go do that. You left your kid. So when we're thinking about that, start to ask yourself, like, am I being hurtful or harmful? Am I hurting their feelings or am I harming myself at the same time? What. What matters more, Hurting their feelings or harming myself?

[A]

Ooh, wee. That's good, because I've done a lot of things where I'm like, I am actively sad. I don't want to be here. I don't want to do this. I don't like this person. But I'm like, I didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. So I showed up and to me, that is actively harming myself, being unhappy for more than five minutes.

[B]

Right? Because then what you're saying is like, my needs don't matter, I don't care about. Yeah, so what's happening? Reaffirming the core belief that, see, I am worth it, right? Like I said, insert the core belief here. Every time we self abandon and every time we walk away from ourselves and we do something that feels out of line. Like, my partner and I have a way that what we do is we say to avoid resentment. That's how we start it. And we both know if one of us says that, put your phone down and to look at that person. And that's something that we've done. Because I know as well as he does, if I don't say anything, I don't say anything. I don't say anything. I'm gonna fucking lose my shit one day because you didn't put the toilet seat down. And we all know it's not about the fucking toilet seat seed. But instead it's like a relationship is one giant conversation. Communicate often, obviously within reason, right? Learn how to like sit with it. But by being able to say like, hey, that doesn't work for me. What you're telling yourself is like, you do matter. I care about you, I listen to you, I hear you, and your needs matter to me.

[A]

I like that. Wait, what is the phrasing you use? I don't want to cause resentment. To avoid resentment, just to like any problem you have, anything.

[B]

Like even earlier we were like lunch and he like, he made like a snarky comment and we got in the car and all I said was, hey, to avoid resentment. What you said was really hurtful. I felt really dismissed. I statement. I felt really dismissed. I felt like you weren't treating me like your partner. It felt like you were putting me down like your little sister. And like, moving forward, I really need you to have respect. When we're out in the way that you talk to me. And he looked and he was like, thank you for sharing. I didn't realize that. I understand what you mean. Noted. That's it, right? You move on then that way I'm like, okay, thanks. I felt seen, I felt heard, I felt understood. And now I feel safe to express myself to this person because look how they receive it me. And vice versa. If he says I need to share like anything, hey, to avoid resentment, I'll put my phone and I'm like, talk to me.

[A]

I like That I like that a lot. I was dating somebody who would kind of do that. And what he expected me to do was just to go, okay, thank you. And then anytime I did that with him, it was, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, or this was my intention, or d d. And I'd be like, well, how come I always just have to say sorry? And you can't just say sorry.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And then they didn't like that.

[B]

Exactly. I was gonna say. And that fell apart. My partner has always said, intention doesn't matter. He's like, my intention without action doesn't mean shit. And so he was like, so I need to do better. And like, that's how you meet someone, is like, I care about you. What you're saying matters to me. And that's why communication from the beginning, like, the relationship he and I have now started because of the foundation that we built along the way. I remember our first month, I remember calling him shaking. Being on my phone with my mom, being like, I'm scared. And my mom's like, what are you scared of? And I said, what if he leaves me? And she goes, good, open the door. And I was like, that is right. And so I called him and I FaceTime and we talked. And I remember it went way better. And I remember hanging up. Being like, I feel so connected to him. Oh, my God. And I was like, oh, wow. I could have not done that. But I made a choice for myself when I regulated. And I came to the fact that no one's going to stand up for me in this way. No one was. I get to be the adult Sabrina didn't have as a kid.

[A]

Boy, oh, boy, I like that. I really do like that you come from a place of, like, if it's not. If it's not your person, then they gotta go. And if it's your person, then they'll, like, hear you and validate you. They're not gonna go, yeah, that's nice.

[B]

Within reason, of course, right? Like, yeah, you know, love is conditional, and that's a common misconception. Like, I give you a little. I see if it were right, like, trust to me, unconditional love. It's like, yeah, my mom. My mom's gonna love me even if I'm killed. Or she even said she's like, you can kill me and I'd love you. I was like, that's sadistic.

[A]

But you're also dead.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Versus a relationship. I'm like, no, no, no, we agreed on this. You can't Just become some tyrant and I have to love you. And boundaries come into play. Because boundaries don't control somebody else. Boundaries allow you to say what you're willing to allow. Right. So if you tell me, like, it's the same example I use of like I'm. I don't call me after 9 o'. Clock me, I can't tell you, Nicole, you're not allowed to call me. It's like I can't control you. But what I'll say is, I won't answer the phone after nine. Ah, right. I don't go out at 8:00'. Clock. Doesn't mean you can't invite me out at 8. But I'm going to tell you, hey, I don't go out that way late. That's a boundary. And then if you cross it, that's on you. Right. But I don't need to allow it.

[A]

Boy, oh boy.

[B]

I know there's so much.

[A]

There's so much to being a functional human being.

[B]

That's why most people don't want to do the work. Because there is a lot.

[A]

It's a lot.

[B]

It's a lot, but it's so worth it.

[A]

It is. You sound happy and secure.

[B]

Happy is elusive. Secure, yes. Though, like, at least in the sense where I know that no matter what, I'll be okay. Okay, that's it. I don't know what's going to happen, but I know that I got my back and I've eaten shit before and I've lost everything. So if my relationship didn't work out, if my career fell apart, like, I will be sad because I'm a human, but I also know that I have my back and I'll figure this shit out.

[A]

God, I love that so much. Do you have any advice for single people?

[B]

Yes. Be really kind to yourself, but also call yourself out on your shit. Like it's, I'm done. If we find yourself in the woe is me. Everything keeps happening to me. I just keep being men are trash. Like, it's called a cognitive bias. The more you fucking say that stuff, the more you're going to see it start to work on you. That's all you can control. Come back home to yourself. And I promise you, yes, I promise you, you will find somebody. It's just a matter of are you ready to receive it?

[A]

Oh, oh, I like that. Are you ready to receive it? Because it's funny, sometimes I don't think I am or like, was. Cause I'm dating somebody right now. It's going pretty well. They're really nice to me.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

And I once said to him, I was like, I'm an anxious person in relationships. And he just went, oh, I know. And I was like, that sounds like my partner. I was like, what do you mean? You know?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

My partner looked at me. He goes, babe, if you don't think that. When you walked in the door, I figured it out. And I was like, or not. And that's what he always said. He's always like, you go and hide your anxiety, so stop trying to pretend like you do. And, like, that's. Look how beautiful. Your partner saw you.

[A]

Very nice. And I am a late person. And he said to me once, I was like, I'm so sorry. I was, like, tripping about it. And he was like, hey, I'm happy to be here with you. And you got here when you did. I had a drink at the bar. It's fine. And I was like, what?

[B]

Right?

[A]

What?

[B]

See how that re parents you like, you can now start to go, oh, so my core beliefs aren't right. And that's what I mean by receive it. Because if you think, you know, proverbial, you. I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough. Someone trying to give you love. Ugh. Get away. That's why healthy is boring. No, I want the spark. It's like, you want the trauma. Tingles. Just say what it is. Yes.

[A]

That's interesting, because he's pretty secure. And I wasn't used to that. And I was like, but things are good, and it's been a long time of good. When will it. When will bad? When will bad happen?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we've talked about it. He's like. Not to say, like, he's like, we will fight, and it's fine. We'll just figure it out. And I was like, like, huh?

[B]

As long as you're both committed. Because, you know, it is like, how many times you get into a fight with something. I can't do this. Or like, I was watching something or was a friend of mine. And, like, it was literally something so minute. Like, she was just a human about something. And the person was like, I can't do this, and I'm gonna. And she looked at him, and she's like, so me just being a human means you're gonna run? I don't know that I can trust you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's. I remember kind of even put a pin in it with this. This therapist. I love Julie Menino, always says, the only thing you need to be In a healthy, secure relationship is two people that are willing to work at this no matter what. Because no matter what. I can go to therapy, you go to therapy, we talk, we do all these things. But I am willing to invest no matter what. The minute that stops is the minute the relationship is over.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Sabrina, that was good. You got a lot of like good wisdom pearls. No, pearls of wisdom.

[B]

I'll take wisdom pearls.

[A]

Is that a thing? Pearls of wisdom. Did I make that up?

[B]

You also started the show that you could come in some of your eye and say whose eye drops? So like we're gonna go with it.

[A]

I always have a dumb little intro like that and I might have used that one already. If you could believe what Sabrina, we've come to the end. Do you have anything that you want to promote?

[B]

Just if you guys want to join the club, hopefully you'll have Nicole on the podcast.

[A]

I would love to do it.

[B]

Okay, well we're going to talk offline about that because I have an idea for you. It's the Sabrina Zohar Show. You guys can listen to it on Spotify, YouTube, all the fun show spiritohar.com if you want to join one of the courses or just follow along on the socials just to learn more about yourself.

[A]

Yeah, I cannot overstate how much I love your Instagram. Thank you. And maybe your TikTok. No, maybe. Maybe it's just TikToks that have made it to Instagram.

[B]

TikTok University.

[A]

I'm an old woman, I can't do TikTok. If you like this episode. Oh wait, would you date me?

[B]

Of course I would date you with pleasure. You cuz you're somebody that's self aware and you're working on yourself and to me that's all that matters.

[A]

I'm trying so hard.

[B]

I know. I get exhausted daily same. And I get that. I see you and I think it's fucking beautiful.

[A]

Sometimes I talk to my dog and then I'll be like, you don't get what I'm saying?

[B]

Why aren't you say oh?

[A]

He's like, oh cuz you're a dog. If he could talk, he'd be like, hey babe, it's okay.

[B]

Yeah. He'd be like, I'm your emotional support.

[A]

Don'T worry about it, it's fine. But if you like this episode of why Won't yout Dame Me? You can like it, you can rate it, you can subscribe. Give me 5 stars on Apple Podcasts. If you hit on me with something nasty you could submit it to why won't you date me? Podcastmail.com. i will read it. Dear Nicole, roses are red, chocolates are sweet, but the only chocolate I want is that ass I'm gonna eat. Hey, thank you.

[B]

I love that so much. A true poet.

[A]

Some of them are sick.

[B]

I'm. I was gonna say, when you leave it as nasty, you're like, I don't know where we're going with this.

[A]

Honestly, the sicker the better. I really like what people come up with. Except for this one time. I talk about it a lot. This person wanted to make me be upside down and fill me with clam chowder. And that to me, I was like, that's sadistic. That's nasty.

[B]

It's like waterboarding with clam chowder.

[A]

What if it curdles up in me? I got clams in me. O. I know. I've never had clam chowder. There's clams in it, right?

[B]

I don't. I don't with clam chowder myself. I.

[A]

It doesn't look good. No.

[B]

It's chunky, it's lumpy, it's crunch.

[A]

I don't want it.

[B]

I'm getting the nods.

[A]

There's.

[B]

There is to be clams in it.

[A]

Is there clams in clam chowder powder?

[B]

They're like, it's vegan.

[A]

It's just a fun thing. We call it. There's no clams. We got clams in my pussy.

[B]

No, no, I'm good.

[A]

No.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Bye. You've been listening to why won't you date me with me, Nicole Byer. This show is produced and edited by Mars with executive producer Anya Kanofskaya. It's engineered by Casey Donahue with guest research by Lindsey Kemp. Our VP of content at Headgum is Katie Moose, and our thieve music is arranged by Mike Comate. Ah, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. See you then.

[B]

Okay, bye. Bye. That was a Hitgum podcast. What's up, everybody? I'm Kyle Mooney and what's up, everybody? I'm back, Banner and man. Ooh, we got something to tell you. Oh, yeah, we definitely do. Yes. It's a brand new podcast on Headgum.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And it's called what's our Podcast? Yep. And that's because we don't have a single idea what our podcast should be about. Yeah, we don't. So we actually have guests come on and they tell us what they think our podcast should be about, and then we try it Yep. Guests like Mark Maron, Jack Black, Brittany Broski, Kate Berlan, Bobby Moynihan, Meg Stalter. And Tim Bolt, Landon Axler, Joanie McGreeves. And Dender. And Dender.

[A]

New episodes release every Wednesday, so subscribe.

[B]

To what's our podcast on YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms. Yeah, I'm gonna go do it right now. Hi, I'm Alana Hope Levinson. And I'm Dan o'.

[A]

Sullivan.

[B]

And this is the Outfit, the new podcast from Higher Ground and Headgum. Now, we're two journalists who are slightly obsessed with the mob and organized crime and other nefarious stuff like that. Every week, we're gonna bring you a story about a mobster. Some you've heard of, some you definitely haven't. But all of them are gonna help explain why America is like this. See, the mob explains all sorts of things, from milk expiration dates to why we got into Cuba to Las Vegas gay bars.

[A]

Who knew?

[B]

Who knew the mob's involved? All that and more. Subscribe to the Outfit wherever you get your podcasts and watch video episodes on YouTube. New episodes every Thursday.