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- [00:00]
A
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Wildlife Photo Chat. I have really been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time. I am excited to have Kareem Bouzidi Idrisi with me. How's it going, Kareem?
- [00:12]
B
I'm doing really good. Thank you so much for having me on the show.
- [00:15]
A
It's nice to be with you. Yeah, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. I really appreciate you setting aside the time. What have you been up to lately, man?
- [00:34]
B
Just coming back to civilization. I've been away on an island in, in Alaska the whole summer. I'll probably have to. I'll probably talk on the topic a lot.
- [00:45]
A
Yeah, definitely.
- [00:47]
B
Since I've been back, I've been, you know, just coming back and, you know, working on, on my website. And also I've been, I've been taking photos daily, as I also always do. Every day.
- [01:00]
A
Do you? Every day?
- [01:01]
B
Oh, yeah. Well, unless there's something that prevents me to do it, but, yeah, every day.
- [01:07]
A
Ah, that's impressive, man. Nice. That's good stuff.
- [01:09]
B
Yeah.
- [01:10]
A
How long have you been doing it, like, that much?
- [01:12]
B
It's been pretty constant, I'd say, like, I've been doing it for about five years, but pretty intensely, I would say.
- [01:20]
A
Pretty nice.
- [01:21]
B
Pretty intensely, yeah.
- [01:23]
A
Was it that way in the beginning?
- [01:26]
B
Yeah, like, I sort of, like. Well, like, I kind of eased into it with, so it started with. I mean, I've been into nature since I was a kid. You know, I was into bugs first. Yeah. Insects.
- [01:38]
A
Okay.
- [01:38]
B
And as a kid, and then as a teenager, I was really into fish and marine stuff, too.
- [01:45]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [01:46]
B
Yeah. And fishing. I was really into fishing as well. But then my, you know, my, my passion for fishing sort of transitioned into wildlife photography. So I, I, I would see these birds while I was fishing. I was like, wow, we have that here. We have, yeah, we have the American bald eagle here.
- [02:05]
A
I was like, incredible.
- [02:08]
B
Yeah. I was like, mind blown. And I was like, okay, maybe I should, like, you know, pay more attention to the birds. And as Covid hit, I had all this free time because I wasn't really working anymore. And I just had a pair of vinyls there, and I was starting to look at birds. Like, wow, that's a woodpecker and all that. And.
- [02:27]
A
Yeah.
- [02:28]
B
And at some point, I remember driving in the countryside and I saw red tail hog. And I was like, wow. Like, I thought we had to go, like, up more really far to see hawks. I thought we had to go really cool, you know, in the wilderness. I didn't Know, they were common, and they were a thing, and it sort of blew my mind. And I. Then I bought. I got an adapter for my phone to take photos out of the B.
- [02:49]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:51]
B
Sort of started doing that. And I had a. I had a blast after the. After playing around with the binos, I. I got a little camera, which was a bridge camera, which is essentially a little camera that you cannot change the lens. It's all in one. And it had a giant zoom, like 24 mil to 600 mil.
- [03:10]
A
It's probably, like, more than you have now. Right? That's usually how it goes.
- [03:13]
B
It is, for sure. And it was super small. It was really small because I could just like. I could just, you know, like, crawl on the ground with it and no problem. It was really fun. And it was really, really fun. I had a blast with that thing. And eventually I upgraded to a setup where you can actually, you know, change the lenses. And I went to Canon, so.
- [03:33]
A
Yeah, all right, so I got a point. I'll go ahead.
- [03:36]
B
Yeah. I was going to say, like, lately, since I'm back, I've been mostly, you know, photographing the warblers as they're coming.
- [03:42]
A
Okay. Migrations.
- [03:44]
B
That's usually what I do. I, you know, I photograph anything I can find. But I have a strong preference with warblers, both in spring and fall. I really love them.
- [03:55]
A
Yeah, I know. I feel like if you become aware of them, it's hard not to, you know.
- [04:00]
B
Absolutely.
- [04:01]
A
Just kind of get enamored with them. Although I will say, you know, my fiance Emily is kind of like, yeah, whatever on them. She loves the birds. She just like the photography of them. She's like, it's not. It just doesn't connect with the photography. But she does love the birds of them. Yeah. I had somebody on the show recently, Emily. Not my Emily, but a different one, and I asked her. She was doing a lot of warbler migration. I asked her if she preferred fall or spring for the warblers. Do you have a preference?
- [04:30]
B
It's a hard one because, you know, obviously in the spring you have all these crazy plumages too, going on and all that. And I feel like for. In my experience, I have, like, you know, I have the best moments in spring because there's even, you know, more variety in my neck of the woods, usually wear a photograph where in the fall, I just. I mostly forgot the common ones.
- [04:49]
A
Okay.
- [04:49]
B
But there's good numbers, though. Like, right now, like, the yellow rums are going absolutely crazy. I'm having a Lot of fun. I'm taking a lot of videos of them lately.
- [04:56]
A
I saw that one recent video was super cool. Dude with it, going after the bugs, man.
- [05:01]
B
That was like, so cool to see them go. It's amazing. It's incredible. I absolutely love them and.
- [05:07]
A
Yeah, that's very cool. So I have a bunch of questions now. Number one, are you still interested in the bugs and the marine stuff?
- [05:16]
B
Absolutely. So the bugs, I've been photographing them a lot, too, especially in the summer. Because in the summer in my area I live in. I'm based near Montreal in Quebec. And yeah, usually it's pretty dead in the summer around here. There's not much. It's really the moment in the year where there's the least amount of stuff for me to really have fun. And also, I'm not a really. I'm not a hate person at all, so. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm with you on that. Yeah. In the summer, I've been. I've been mostly, you know, photographing bugs. And then I would love someday to eventually to photograph some stuff underwater, too, with a house with a. Like an underwater housing. Have you ever got to play with.
- [06:00]
A
Not yet.
- [06:00]
B
I've never. No, I haven't tried it. Okay. I would love. Or maybe a probe lens.
- [06:05]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. I mean, my limited experience with it. It is both fun and the most challenging. You know, it's like. Seems to combine both of those things. Yeah. So that just seems to be how it goes. And then I also want to kind of bounce back to something you mentioned earlier, right in the beginning when you were like, you know, just trying to get back to civilization again. Dude, what. What has that been like? Have you ever been away from home that long, number one, like, in. In recent times?
- [06:35]
B
Well, my previous experience before with camping was. Was one night, pretty much.
- [06:40]
A
Okay.
- [06:40]
B
Yeah. I went from one night three months, three months and a half. No running water.
- [06:46]
A
Oh, that's great, dude.
- [06:48]
B
That's exactly what I wanted. I wanted something, you know, I wanted some experience and I wanted, you know, I want to have something different and really haven't a meaningful experience. And I think I really got it with.
- [06:59]
A
With this trip. No doubt. So what was it like coming back to quote, unquote, civilization, right back to, like, a city and urban life and cars and traffic and all that? What was that? Was it jarring?
- [07:12]
B
It wasn't as bad as I. As difficult as I thought. One thing I was really missing, though, was a good bed, I will say.
- [07:18]
A
Yeah.
- [07:19]
B
But honestly, the sound and all that. I was, you know, being in a. On a little island which is full of colonies of seabirds. It was constant noise all the time, you know, so obviously, it's nice noise. It's. I mean, I like it. I didn't have a problem with it, so.
- [07:35]
A
Sure.
- [07:35]
B
I mean, just. It was kind of interesting to go back to a quieter level, which is funny because you're going back to the city. You would think it would be louder.
- [07:42]
A
Yeah. But it felt.
- [07:44]
B
When we were in Anchorage, it felt so quiet. I was like, wow, this is. This is different. And then we, you know, as a. As a crew, we had two days in Anchorage before flying back, because the whole summer I was on that island offshore, which I'll talk in detail later. But then we had two days in Anchorage and we went to a restaurant there, and it was just funny just to be in a civilized space. And, yeah, we tried not to be too weird, not to make too much weird bird sounds in the way. It was really fun.
- [08:20]
A
So it wasn't that bad, huh? You didn't mind, like, the. Just the congestion, like, people and all that. It was, like, cool.
- [08:26]
B
Coming back to that, honestly, I really wanted to go back to my projects, so there was something bringing me back. I wasn't just leaving this paradise to nothing. I was coming back to my girlfriend, too. And I was coming back to a lot of projects that I had started. So I was. I was excited in that way, coming back to me, like, the, you know, work and just a routine, obviously. Like, I really like the routine we had on the island. So. Yeah, there's always something I'll miss about that, But I don't hate being back. I'll say that I'm pretty happy.
- [08:57]
A
Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I guess it is. It's a little different. I was mainly just digging in there a little bit because, like, every time Emily and I end up, you know, out in more remote places in our van for, you know, if we get like, a couple weeks, a month, something like that, and then we, like, drive back into any town, you know, like, wherever we happen to be, it always just feels like a little of. Just so much. It feels chaotic in a way. It feels like so much less peaceful and everything like that. But it's certainly, I guess, a little bit of a different experience than what you had, just with the type of trip and where you were and all that.
- [09:30]
B
So for sure. And the duration to three months and a half. Like, as much as I love this island, I was also happy to come back to Some things, obviously.
- [09:38]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, just having like some. Some normal, you know, everyday comforts, I'm sure.
- [09:44]
B
Exactly.
- [09:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, totally makes sense. So, yeah, before obviously we're going to probably spend the whole second half of this episode talking about that trip. So before we get too sidetracked with that, I would love to hear more about what you've been shooting lately with these Warblers and everything. So this is now roughly, I think you said five years in, right?
- [10:07]
B
Yep.
- [10:08]
A
So what are you working on with that kind of stuff? Trying to, you know, get more creative, do something a little different than you've done in the past. Like, is there anything specific in your mind this year that you've been concentrating on or is it just like a small evolution that just keeps going?
- [10:22]
B
Yeah, usually I just really go with what's offered at any. I don't really. I don't spend much time, you know, chasing. I'm mainly going to the main. The same three places over and over again every day. Places that are really close to home. 20 minute drive. Give it. And so every year I just do my little, you know, I have a little route that I take in these parts. I just do it and some stuff will come up. Some birds might come for a few days and I might decide to go on a little side project and focus on them or it might just be, you know, migration waves. So I'll be more. I might focus on a specific place within that park that has a nice light, which if I know it's a good section of this patch that usually has warblers year after year. I will definitely check these patches and if there's good action, I might set up there and just wait for stuff to come, find a nice composition, hope something comes around it. And yeah, that's mostly. I have a really slow approach to this and I go to the same places. I walk very slowly. I will, you know, stop a lot, just wait and. Yeah, use my. I use my ears a lot and one thing I've been working on, you know, a lot is getting better at IDing by a chip. So like the little chip calls. So like not the sound, not the songs, but the chip calls as you know them, I'm sure.
- [11:52]
A
Yeah.
- [11:52]
B
And. And yeah, these little note. These little calls that they do in the fall. Yeah, yeah. It's a really tricky. It's fun. It's my. You know, it's been a few years that I've been working on chip and I'm getting. I feel like this year I'm getting Pretty solid. It's really.
- [12:07]
A
Oh, that's cool, man.
- [12:08]
B
It's really worrying the.
- [12:10]
A
Isn't it? I know. I feel like I have maybe four species, and it's always based on habitat. Like, I need habitat help. Like, just knowing where they are so much to being able to go. Like, all right, what would I expect here? And out of those, which chip node is this? The closest?
- [12:27]
B
Exactly. That's how you have to do it. You have to make groups in your head. Exactly.
- [12:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, like, when I'm in Florida in the winter, it's easy, Right. There's two main species. It's palm and yellow rump. And the yellow rump is just way more like volume and, like, chirpy. And the palm is like more metallic and just like real thin sounding.
- [12:48]
B
Yep.
- [12:49]
A
And so they're. They're super easy to distinguish. But every once in a while, like, even in a spring forest up here in New Jersey, when I was doing warbler photography there, I'd pull out. I could get, like, Louisiana water. Thrush was easy. And then every so often, I'd get like a hooded. Just on chip. And then, like, the people that I was working with would, like, their mind would be blown and it would blow my mind.
- [13:09]
B
I was like, it's so tricky. It is. Such little differences. It's really, you know. But also, I would say in the spring, it's. It's much harder, in my opinion, because there's all these birds singing around it. I feel like my brain is really good at, you know, like, it's focusing on the sound. Like the songs, I mean, and.
- [13:26]
A
Sure.
- [13:27]
B
And the chip notes are kind of in the background. I'm not really hearing them yet. But in the fall, you only have those. Those calls.
- [13:33]
A
Yeah.
- [13:33]
B
So in the fall, you can really, really, you know, But I. I use them too in the summer, I find.
- [13:39]
A
Sure. Yep.
- [13:40]
B
Like, when you're in good breathing habit that you just hear chips. Sometimes they don't. They don't always sing. Sometimes you will interact and they will be like, chip, Chip. And it's. Yeah.
- [13:48]
A
It's the craziest thing to me because, like, if I think if I go back, like, you know, 15 years for me and think about, like, even just knowing the songs of birds that I'd be hearing in the spring, I would be like, that seems crazy. There's no way. And now I know. Yeah.
- [14:05]
B
But it's. I feel like if you. If you're always, you know, like, practicing it and just like, you know, whatever amount you're Practicing, you know, I just like trying yourself just trying every year that the, you know, Id at least the common version, then if totally something stands out, you at least you know how to.
- [14:23]
A
It's different.
- [14:23]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [14:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so anyway, just to think like that I could ever ID stuff just by a chip note seems crazy. And so. And then here you go, you know, like you just. Like you said, you practice enough, you're out there in the field enough, and all of a sudden you start being able to do that a little bit. And it's just kind of. It's wild stuff. It really.
- [14:43]
B
It is. It's really cool. Yeah. And like you said, like time spent in the field is. Is major in this because you can practice at home, but it's not the same as if it's never the same experience. Like when I see the bird doing the thing or singing, like that's when my mind really remembers it, you know?
- [14:59]
A
Well, and I thought, I've always thought there's like such a difference of distinguishing and separating the calls out in the wild out in the field versus like I'm playing this in home and blah, blah, and there's nothing else distracting and you're really paying attention. You know, it's such a different environment.
- [15:17]
B
And also the loudness. Some of these chip. You don't understand how loud they. They are in relation, in relation to other chips. And you're like, oh, okay, this is really loud. Like you would never know.
- [15:27]
A
Yeah, yeah. But I also love like, have you ever had the experience with. I usually hear it with songs but like where a species will just all of a sudden do like a real, super low volume soft song. It's the whole song, but it's just like the volume turned down to like two and you're like, what? I didn't know they could do that.
- [15:47]
B
Whisper. Whisper songs or something.
- [15:49]
A
It is, yeah. It's still. It's clearly the song. It doesn't change. It's just like so low volume. I'm like, okay, you're being subtle right now.
- [15:56]
B
Is this just practicing or something?
- [15:59]
A
Yeah. Oh, it's so fun.
- [16:01]
B
It's really cute. I had a thrush last time. A few days ago, it was doing its. Its call note like this little clock. But it was doing it super quiet. It was right next to me. I could, I could see it through the wrenches. But it was doing that quiet shift. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know there was a thing. Anyways, it was, it was. It was funny.
- [16:18]
A
Birds are amazing, man. They really are. Well, and to tie all this, you know, super bird nerd conversation back into photography, like, how helpful it is just knowing what's around you, you know?
- [16:29]
B
Oh, yeah, that's so true. Yeah. Like, so many. I mean, most of my photos that I really like, it's. I found the bird because I. I heard it because I wouldn't know it's there. I'm not really good at finding the birds that are moving. It's not my best skill set. I would say I'm better at finding, you know, silhouettes. I would find, like, okay, owl, like an owl hiding or a raptor. I. I'm pretty decent at it. But then when it comes to moving things, I'm not the best. So I feel like my ears really help me to pinpoint where stuff is. It's really helpful. It's really fun, and it's just fun to learn. It is. I love it.
- [17:05]
A
I know. Me and Emily talk about it all the time when we're out in the forest. I feel like it's this sort of. You're tapped into this secret language that.
- [17:12]
B
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [17:13]
A
If. If you're not into it, nobody else knows. Right.
- [17:16]
B
You're.
- [17:16]
A
If you take, you know, a random friend or family member out in the forest and they're not into birds and you're just walking along, they're not even registering that there's birds calling and you know exactly what's there. And it's absolutely such a cool little thing to know, isn't it? Like a connection.
- [17:32]
B
I know it unlocked something in my life. It's amazing. It's just constantly there. It's just great. Yeah.
- [17:38]
A
I was. I was recording. I've just started recording these, like, short little bird photography tips that I'm going to be sharing on, you know, online and stuff like that. And I was doing one the other day about learning bird calls, you know, and how helpful it is. And I think, like, the biggest argument against, like, even bothering to try and learn lately is, like, how good that Merlin app has got, right? Oh, yeah, it's incredibly good. But you know what I realized when I. When I was recording this, I was like, yeah, but Merlin can't tell you how far away it is. Which one is there? Like, which direction it is. If it. Is it up, is it down? Like, how the distance. It doesn't tell you any of that. It just tells you anything. It hears. Right. And so it. There's still a huge photographic advantage of knowing them yourself, because you can go, oh, okay, I hear this species right here. This Is. And especially if you're looking for something, it still is worth, I think, trying to learn it instead of just only relying on an app like that, you know?
- [18:35]
B
Absolutely, that's, that's very true. It's a really good starting point and it helps to learn. So when you're learning the calls it a fantastic tool because you, you get to make that association. Okay, this is this. Okay. It's how you work it. That's. I use it all the time to learn. That's how it's really useful. But then as a, as a tool to really be efficient, I think learning it is amazing. It's a great, you know, skill set to have for photography for sure. Yeah.
- [19:01]
A
Yeah.
- [19:01]
B
And usually when I record as well, when I, when I hear a bird and I, you know, there's a few seconds that I, I need to take my phone out of my pocket. And that's always when the birds stop singing.
- [19:10]
A
Yes. Every time.
- [19:12]
B
It's usually better. It's usually better if you know them, dude.
- [19:16]
A
Every time I'll be in some area, you know, Emily and I travel all the time. We're in new places all the time. And I hear, I'm like, wow, I don't know what that is. And then you take the phone out and just silence.
- [19:26]
B
It's happened so many times. It's actually incredible.
- [19:29]
A
And then you put it away. You're like, all right, I've been standing here for three minutes with it going, nothing's happened. You put it away. And then they'll inevitably make noise again. It's like they're watching. Oh, it's so funny, man. It's so funny.
- [19:42]
B
And another cool thing too with, with the calls is sometimes they'll tell you something else. Like they'll tell you there's a, there's a predator. And, and so many times I've, I've found a predator raptor or something because, you know, robin made its little call. It's a really like, it's a high pitched, little like whistle. And when you hear that this. Usually there's a aerial predator around. Usually.
- [20:06]
A
Okay.
- [20:06]
B
And they have like a different call for if it's a land. It's. It's the amount of stuff you learn with, with, with just learning the language, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's amazing.
- [20:16]
A
Oh, that's so cool, man. Well, that, that connects to my next question because I'm like, you know, we're talking about all these warblers and songbirds and then, you know, you just spend all this time with seabirds and Then your Instagram name is. Has raptors in it. Yeah. Yeah. How much of a, like, a connection do you still have with them? Is that. Are they still a big importance in your bird life?
- [20:40]
B
I would say it's a minor part of my. My photography and interests. I would say it was just funny.
- [20:45]
A
Oh, that's funny. Yeah.
- [20:46]
B
I guess the name tells you more like the origin story than what I'm actually doing now with that red tailed hawk. Exactly.
- [20:54]
A
It's funny.
- [20:55]
B
Spark of it and seeing, like, bald eagle when I was fishing. So I was like, you know, I started into birding and photographing birds with the raptors, but I would say I'm 100% a songbird guy now. Like, I'm completely sold to the songbird.
- [21:09]
A
Too funny. Too funny.
- [21:11]
B
Yeah.
- [21:13]
A
I'd love to hear, like, what do you think draws you in that direction with the. The songbird game versus the raptor thing? Because, you know, I mean, I feel like, especially if you are enamored with raptors and, dude, I can. I can think back to being six, seven years old, and literally a mile from where I'm parked, I'm parked at my mom's house right now in southern New Jersey, and a mile down the street was always this nesting pair of red tailed hawks that my dad and I would see every time we would drive by. And I can still remember that to this day, you know, like, almost 40 years later. And so. So I know especially when you start off with, like, the raptor thing, they can be really enamoring and really connecting. So I'm curious as to why you maybe didn't stay with that and have kind of switched over to the songbird direction.
- [22:02]
B
There's a. There's a few different reasons. I think one of them, I. So I got a lot of pretty bad experiences with raptors and photographers, you know, along. Along the way, which kind of like. Okay, like, it made me want to take a little bit of a step back and maybe like, just, you know, go to places where I wouldn't get these encounters and all that. So that's one of the motivators of it. But also I really like the challenge of photographing moving stuff, you know, little birds. I really, yeah. Have more. I have a lot more fun, you know, on a good warbler day than I have fun, you know, waiting for a red tail hug to jump on something or how to do something to move. I have a lot more fun doing, you know, the warbler stuff because also of the challenge, I love, you know, being able to attract Them in the, in the bushes and really homing that craft and getting better at that. I really have a lot of fun doing that.
- [23:02]
A
Yeah, that's so cool, man. I completely agree. I connect with all those same things, you know, like they're just, they're still in a way less popular. Right. So the areas of forest where you tend to find them seem to be less popular and I don't know, I've just always been like a root for the underdog kind of person, you know what I mean? And like get enough attention.
- [23:20]
B
Yeah, my friends always say that I go for low hanging fruit a lot and I think they're right in a way.
- [23:26]
A
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
- [23:27]
B
Another really cool thing about sunburst is that, well, war brewers, for instance, is the, the habitat they breed in. It's just these amazing places and I really love, you know, going to photograph in an area because of the habitat, because of how it looks. And then all the photos have this, you know, this atmosphere in it. And I really love the, the northern forests, you know, where we see these warblers, like the, you know, this gorgeous, you know, amazing habitat. It's just I associate this, you know, this great, you know, the smells, the amazing smell there, the amazing atmosphere, you know, every, the wildlife. I associated with the songbirds now a lot and.
- [24:05]
A
Yeah, totally makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, finding like, I guess it works with any kind of bird but just the places that you go seeking out birds that, you know, I think if we, if I wasn't connected to birds or seeking them out, I would never end up in most of these places, you know.
- [24:26]
B
Oh, definitely. Oh yeah, you, yeah. Like you. So many amazing places you discover and you go there to walk or bring friends or, you know, you discover all these amazing gems.
- [24:39]
A
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Which is a, a flawless segue into where you got taken to chasing birds recently. And so, yeah, let's, let's hear about this, man. I mean, how did this come about? I guess let's start off this. Where did you go and how long your.3 months you were there.
- [24:59]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I camped for. I camped for three months and a half to work on seabird monitoring in, on Middleton island in Alaska, which is a tiny little remote island in the Gulf of Alaska. And it's, it's not had. There's no habitant. It's pretty hard to reach. It's, it's, you know, it's. I think it's a few, it's 100km offshore, I think something like that.
- [25:25]
A
Okay. Yeah.
- [25:26]
B
So you can't, you can't just hop on a ferry and go there. Gotcha. And so we, we had to go on a charter plane there. And the reason why I was there is. So it is for my undergrad studies, I had. I went there to get some training and experience in, in biology work.
- [25:43]
A
Okay.
- [25:44]
B
So I've, I'm. I've been studying biology and more specifically ecology and, you know, being into birds, I. I wanted to. To work with birds. So I've been, you know, trying to get on this, this program for a few years. And this year I was. I was taken. So it was really exciting. Yeah.
- [26:01]
A
And I mean, when you got the news that you were going, you had to be just over the top, huh? Like, it had to be just incredible news to get.
- [26:10]
B
I almost didn't believe it. I didn't want to be excited. I think the excitement started in the plane. I was like, okay. I was being like, you know, careful. I was being, you know. Yeah. I was like, I don't. What if something happens? I can't go, you know.
- [26:23]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.
- [26:25]
B
With the US And Canada, some point with the borders.
- [26:27]
A
Gotcha. Yeah.
- [26:29]
B
Yeah. So I was just like, I'm going to celebrate once I'm there.
- [26:32]
A
Yeah.
- [26:33]
B
So. Yeah. The island itself is extremely weird in so many ways. So I could, I could describe a bit what's going on there before. Before, you know, like before talking about the work I did there. So it has a kind of a wild history. So in. In 1964, there was a big earthquake in Alaska. I think it was a magnitude of 9.2. And so that night the whole island got lifted up 4 meters in height. Like it rose up the ground 4 meters. And not only did the island rose up 4 meters, but the entire sea floor that was around the entire island also went up. So it was like a shallow section, like a shallow section of seawater. And now it got exposed the air. So it created this brand new extensive zone of like intertidal flats. It was incredible. It was these giant lagoons, you know, interconnected with rivers. And the tide would go in and out, filling the lagoons and the rivers.
- [27:44]
A
Oh, okay.
- [27:45]
B
You know, draining them every day. It was really impressive. It was really big. So this whole island got created by the earthquake. And the cliffs that were already on the island got steeper and they changed, which allowed for different plants. So it's changed in the island a lot. I was looking at photographs from before. It's completely changed. There's a lot more vegetation now with all this new habitat, it's kind of the first succession, which is kind of when the forest or the habitat is at its. Its youngest.
- [28:19]
A
Yeah.
- [28:20]
B
So it's kind of like flourishing now, but in a few years there might be forest, there might be. It's just like at the early start of its life.
- [28:27]
A
Oh, that's wild, man. And I mean, relatively speaking, it all happened incredibly fast from this one big event.
- [28:35]
B
Absolutely. And another really weird thing and interesting about the island is the, the human history behind it. So it was, it was. The only people that are on the island are biologists and people from the faa, which is the Federal Aviation Agency. And they have a little airstrip there and they have a few weather station and a few radio towers, communication stuff, but they don't, they don't live there. It's just people will come for a few weeks and work on the. So we've, we've run into them. They're really nice people. They've invited us over. They have a little building and so. Yeah. And before. So there was a whole military base there which was abandoned after the earthquake. So during the Cold War, the U.S. air Force built a radar station there in the late 50s, and the whole base was abandoned after the earthquake. So what's left is. Are these, you know, these crumbling barracks, these radar towers, these rusted beams overtaken by zebras entirely. Every single corner of these abandoned buildings were filled with zebras.
- [29:49]
A
That's so cool.
- [29:50]
B
It was, it looked completely past apocalyptic. It was, it was wild and it was a really wild contrast. It was a really stark, you know, contrast with the nature around it.
- [30:01]
A
Yeah, yeah, of course.
- [30:03]
B
Right? Oh, yeah. And like the, the cherry on top is that there. There's also this giant shipwreck on the island. It's this giant vessel that also. So it was during the Cold War. No, no, sorry. During World War II, I think. Okay. This giant vessel ran aground on. Off Middleton because it suspected a. A Japanese sub to be around.
- [30:29]
A
Oh, wow.
- [30:30]
B
They. They sort of beached themselves and.
- [30:32]
A
Oh, okay. But to save themselves.
- [30:34]
B
Exactly, exactly. And they were all saved. All the crew were safe.
- [30:39]
A
Okay.
- [30:39]
B
And. But the ship was so far offshore it could never be salvaged. It was left, you know, stranded there. And when the. It was like, in this, in that shallow sea floor zone. But then it got lifted up 4 meters and it's now completely exposed.
- [30:54]
A
It's just on land now.
- [30:55]
B
It is, It's. It looks. It looks like you're in a different place, you know, a different dimension or something.
- [31:01]
A
Yeah. Like, how could it have Possibly got there if you didn't know the history of what happened exactly.
- [31:05]
B
It's wild. And you know, this whole, the whole area where it is that this intertidal zone is filled with tundra as well, which was where we did a lot of the studies. Yeah, it was beautiful tundra with different layers. Some of it was wet tundra, some of it was dry. It was, yeah, very.
- [31:24]
A
Have you ever experienced tundra yourself prior to this?
- [31:27]
B
No, I don't think I have.
- [31:28]
A
No.
- [31:29]
B
It was my first.
- [31:30]
A
It's.
- [31:30]
B
It's wild. All these nests on the ground, you know, all these beautiful mosses, all these shores on like so colorful.
- [31:38]
A
I know, yeah. It's so different.
- [31:41]
B
And also all the shorebird making these weird sounds like they. If you have people listening at home, if you have time to listen to some of the, the songs, not the calls, but the songs of some of these shorebirds, it's unreal. Like you would never think some of them sound like a, like a engine or some of them sound like frogs. It's weird.
- [31:58]
A
Did you have western sandpipers there?
- [32:01]
B
We had them. I never heard them sing. And we heard. Oh my gosh, they're sound bizarre.
- [32:06]
A
Oh, okay.
- [32:07]
B
Oh yeah. At least the semi palmated. Semi palmated would sound like an engine. Yeah, yeah, we hear some weird ones. It's interesting.
- [32:16]
A
It's the western sound.
- [32:18]
B
Like that.
- [32:19]
A
Yeah. There's like this weird like screechy, scratchy, whispery thing that goes off and then it like turns into like a normal, more. More normal sounding bird sound and just like.
- [32:29]
B
Yeah, yeah, sure.
- [32:30]
A
Birds are crazy.
- [32:34]
B
It was cool to see them in a different context. You know, never on the beach. It was always on. On these big driftwood logs or on these.
- [32:40]
A
Yeah.
- [32:40]
B
On these bushes or like they would perch on the, on, on the buildings too.
- [32:45]
A
Isn't it? Like that to me is once I started having the privilege of being able to travel around and experience like, you know, I've got to see, you know, obviously photograph warblers up here in the spring and then go down into the tropics and see them in the winter down there and kind of the other half of their lives. And then the same thing with shorebirds. Like I spent, you know, all of my, you know, photography career along the coast of like the east coast of the US with all these birds on the beach. And then to go up into Alaska in the tundra and see them in these spaces like you were just describing, just seeing that other half of the life is just so amazing and fascinating and something that not A lot of people get to experience it is amazing.
- [33:24]
B
I had this white crossbill at some point in prairie habitat. It was, you know, in short grass prairie type thing. And it was amazing because back home I associate this bird with winter and tall pines and really cold weather and. But here it was the middle of summer and I was looking at this bird eye level and just some, some kind of berry bush. It was really fun. And there's also a thing I wanted to mention about that was really interesting about the change from the earthquake is stuff really, you know, the populations of bird really adapted to this new habitat. And species like oystercatchers. The black oystercatcher was, were never reported on the island before the earthquake. And now it's one of the biggest colonies on, on, on earth to see that.
- [34:10]
A
Wow.
- [34:11]
B
We made counts during our, the field season and we, we counted like 900 at some one day. It was.
- [34:17]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [34:18]
B
It was flocks of. Sometimes you would see flocks of 60 of them. It. It was unreal.
- [34:23]
A
Wow. Yeah. I think the most reported prior to that. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, I, I think I've only ever seen like maybe like 70, 80American oyster catchers in one spot once. And that was just like.
- [34:36]
B
That's already a lot.
- [34:37]
A
Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Because it's so rare to see them together.
- [34:40]
B
Like one flush you said? Yeah. Oh, okay. That's crazy.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah. All sitting on one beach one time. Yeah. I've only ever seen it once. Yeah, it was just, it was pre fall migration. So they're all just gathering together and it was like right before they were getting ready to go. But every time other than that, in the same areas, you'd see like one or two together. Like, oh, it's a big day. I saw three of them, you know. Yeah, it's crazy.
- [35:03]
B
That's insane.
- [35:04]
A
Yeah.
- [35:05]
B
And also, you know. So oyster catchers were not found before. Now they are. But there's stuff that, you know, decrease a lot with it. So for instance, the murres, the common murres, which is gorgeous. I love mers.
- [35:16]
A
Yeah.
- [35:16]
B
These little, you know, they, they nest at the cliffs and before, before the earthquake, the chicks would, would just fledge out of the cliffs and jump straight in the water and then they would be safe and then they would proceed. But then now with this whole earthquake thing. Well, the sea is now ground.
- [35:37]
A
Yeah.
- [35:37]
B
So they're jumping to the ground and have to cross this giant, extensive, this big zone of intertidal, really hostile habitat. They have to cross that.
- [35:50]
A
And the problem they're not made to walk. Not at all.
- [35:54]
B
And also, it's exactly where the Glaucus wingull nests. Oh, geez. So these giant Arctic goals are just like exactly where they. There's. And they weren't really there before they were around, but they were not nesting at that place. It didn't exist. So now it's just. I don't think they have really good success at all. And they've been. They've been decreasing a lot.
- [36:15]
A
Yeah, they're kidding.
- [36:16]
B
Dramatically on the island.
- [36:18]
A
Yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say it's surprising that they're still nesting in the same spot, but I guess, like, it's kind of programmed into these adults, right, to do that year after year. And so. Yeah, they don't know to move yet. Right.
- [36:32]
B
I suppose. Yeah. But there's a. It's confined to one little patch now. It used to be, you know, all around the island, but yeah, it's harder for them to the nest. But the ones that remain, they don't really see the problem yet, I think.
- [36:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Wow. I mean, this had to be, I mean, just like such an incredible place to visit just to see all of this stuff happening again, like, so relatively quickly. Like, these changes would normally take, you know, just so many years or hundreds of years even, and it's all happening in such a short span of time.
- [37:05]
B
It is fascinating. It is incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.
- [37:09]
A
Well, I mean, just listen. This would have been an amazing trip even if you didn't bring a camera. But then add on to it, you know, you've got a camera there, you're a photographer. I mean, this had to be just the best playground for you.
- [37:22]
B
It was incredible. So most of my time was, you know, I was working about 65 hours a week. Wow. Seabird stuff. Which I, I'll, you know, mention some of the projects we did. But yeah, I was mostly working, but I had one day off every week, and that day off I was always out exploring with my camera.
- [37:39]
A
Yeah.
- [37:40]
B
And I also would. I was always or often photographing in the morning before my shift. So before 9am And I would go in the lunchtime, I would eat in like 10 minutes, something, and I would just like to run outside. And after my shift at night, I would also do that. I was just like.
- [37:56]
A
I mean, didn't have to go far.
- [37:58]
B
No, yeah, exactly. Well, the island, you know, there was some really great spot to photograph around the camp, but there was some. Some more spots that I could really go explore. Some different habitat that I could explore on my Day offs. And it was amazing. Oh, that's so fantastic.
- [38:14]
A
Yeah.
- [38:15]
B
And I took every little time I had to do that and it was exhausting, but it was worth it.
- [38:20]
A
Yeah. Because you knew you had a finite time there. Right. So it's just like, I don't care. I'm tired. I gotta do this now because I don't know if I'll ever get a chance to do it again.
- [38:28]
B
Yeah, exactly. It's not a place you just go for fun. It's really complicated. You have to have a really good reason or a lot of money and buy a charter plane maybe. But even then, you know, it's really sensitive habitat. I don't think it's. Sure, it's made for, you know, like it's really, you know, it's easy to disturb the colonies. It's easy to create casualties. It's really like a place I wouldn't want to spend too much time at. At the same time. Yeah. Because of how fragile it feels like.
- [38:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally. Now it's, it's good that places like that do exist that are either just, you know, super challenging to get to or also just, you know, protected and, and don't allow access to. Because it would be ruined so fast.
- [39:15]
B
Absolutely.
- [39:15]
A
Unfortunately.
- [39:16]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [39:16]
A
You know.
- [39:17]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like even I, I think my impact was. And the impact of all the biologists is, is pretty considerable and like it's already putting a lot of pressures. I, I couldn't imagine if it was like a place everyone could go. It would be for. Just to give you an example, a lot of places where you, you walk at the cliffs, you could cave in some burrows and yeah. Just ruin the chances of a puffin to have a good season. And yeah, there's a lot of other examples. Or you can, you know, you can flush some cormorants out of their nest and they will be predated by the gulls. It's really easy to cause things and unfortunately, during my time there, like some, some accident happened and sure it makes you feel really like wow, like the impact I have right now is huge. I really need to be careful. I really need to do everything I can to not be a problem. Y. And so I, I, you know, you get to, to know where to go to not flush the birds. You get to know how to approach.
- [40:14]
A
Yeah.
- [40:14]
B
Mostly by crawling. You get to know when it's a good time and where. What's the, the signs that the ground will tell you before you know being. You cave in a burrow. You will. So we would Often, like, crawl in these areas to cause this.
- [40:29]
A
Yep.
- [40:30]
B
So it was really. And also in the tundra, there's all these nests that are on the ground, all these chicks hiding under every plant. It's really. You have to be so careful out there.
- [40:39]
A
Yeah, no, I totally get that. And, you know, I think that's like, it's such a great way to hear you share about that and to sort of explain, I think, to a lot of people, especially, like, you know, newer photographers getting into any kind of wildlife photography, because, like, in my mind, we all make mistakes, you know, and it's so easy for the. Like when things are shared online of somebody doing something wrong or making a mistake, and then people just attack them like crazy, and just like, you know you're wrong. And then, like, you know, kind of the ethics police go after them and it's just like, yeah, you know, we all. We all make mistakes. Like, you guys are there studying these birds, you know how sensitive they are. And then you have to learn as you go. And the goal is to have the least amount of impact as possible, Right, Exactly.
- [41:28]
B
It's impossible to have none. We always have an impact. Just walk.
- [41:30]
A
Exactly. Yeah, totally.
- [41:33]
B
Right.
- [41:34]
A
And I think I truly do believe that's the. Also the goal for most wildlife photographers. But once you learn that, that should be your goal. Like, in the beginning, you're just like, yeah, just go out with the camera. I'm just having fun. Like, that's usually kind of the extent of it in the beginning. And so we all have to learn, you know what I mean? And like, I. I have similar stories to yours, not quite exactly, but, like, you know, where you. I've been out in the field and I made a mistake and I saw the impact happen right there. And I was like, oh, I feel awful. I never meant to do that. I didn't want that to happen. And now I've learned from that. And so I'm going to not do that again. And that, to me, is where that's, like, the point that matters, right? Is if you learn from your mistakes and try your best not to repeat them again, that's when everybody's doing the right thing at that point. And, like, no need to attack people for making a mistake and pointing fingers and everything, because we all need to
- [42:28]
B
learn, you know, Exactly. There's no shame in it. It happens sometimes. It's heartbreaking if something you cause, something you don't want, but it's part of it, and you just, you know, this. The sadness you may feel or whatever feeling Will, you know, help you not to make that mistake. And you need to really, you know, I think it's the best way to do this is just not being, you know, oh, like you're making mistake, but being like, here's how to fix this mistake.
- [42:53]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [42:55]
B
And it's, you know, like, I think it's really the best way to do it is just acknowledging it and being like, wow, this is the impact. And I will do my best to negate that or keep it at its lowest because we're always impacting the wildlife. Yeah. And listen, what can I do to keep it low?
- [43:09]
A
Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I get that there are certain things where it's just like, you know what? I can't figure out a workaround here. Every time I do this, it's going to have an impact. So maybe that means, all right, I don't go out after the species, or I don't go photograph this nest or whatever like that. You know what I mean?
- [43:24]
B
That's sort of what happened with the cormorants with me, that. So I will share my experience that happened. It was pretty negative, is I. I was photographing at the cliffs, which is the place with a lot of nests there at the cliff.
- [43:36]
A
Yeah.
- [43:36]
B
And usually I would. I would crawl. I always crawl there. Yeah. And this time I crawled on my knees a bit, and I was a bit. I had a higher profile and, yeah, I think it scared them because of that. And there was a pair of cormorants on a nest. They flew off. The moment they flew off, a Dolokus Wingull flew in and ate an egg. Yeah. And I felt so bad because I caused this and I was like, okay, and what did I do next? I never crawled in that way again. I was always using a different. And I was using a different part of the cliff that I had a. They could see me come towards them. There was no element of surprise or if they see me last. So it was my way to fix it. And even though I felt really bad, it was. I think it was just how I had to learn the hard way, I guess. And I wish I could have knew before it would happen. Of course, it's not always like that, you know, it just happens and you have to learn from it and. And go, you know, and progress.
- [44:32]
A
Yeah, exactly. Progress. That. That's a good. Like a perfect word for it. Yeah, it's good stuff. So let's switch to. Yeah, let's hear about the photography here. I mean, I want to hear. Did you have a favorite spot there? To photograph anything. Like was there a spot where every time you got a chance to go there you were like this just. This is amazing.
- [44:52]
B
I think I might have, I think we should talk about the work first because I will introduce, I might introduce some of these areas and I think it would be interesting because it would introduce kind of the species and then I can mention how I got the photograph.
- [45:04]
A
Oh yeah, sure, that works. Yeah. So what were you, what were you doing there?
- [45:08]
B
So the, I mean, the work there that I did was on different zebra species. So I had to work on tufted puffins, on rhinoceros auklets, on glaucous wings goals. So we were about, you know, eight to 15 people during the season. Some people came in for their own, you know, research. Some people came in to help. There were teams from Japan, teams from Europe, teams from us that came in and did different research. And the, the main project I was embarking on was the long term monitoring for like they've been doing this for 30 years where they.
- [45:42]
A
Wow.
- [45:43]
B
They gather a lot of data on all these sievers and the data is, is then sent to the, the isrc which is the Institute for Seabird Research and Conservation. So the main things that I did was I got to lead the Glaucoswim goal team. So that was my main project, but I also got to work and help on all the other seabirds.
- [46:04]
A
Yeah.
- [46:05]
B
So I can talk a bit about that experience because it was really great. So let's start with the, the Glaucos wingulls.
- [46:13]
A
Yeah.
- [46:14]
B
So earlier in, early in the season, we had to go in the tundra and mark all the nests that we would find in the, in the parcel, in the zone.
- [46:22]
A
Okay.
- [46:23]
B
And then every four days we would go back to these nests and note, you know, take notes on the egg laying, the egg development, the egg failures, the egg success, the hatch. And then when the chick would hatch, we put a little plastic down on their leg and we would start measuring, measuring them. And then usually when the chick hatch, they're close to the nest, it's really easy to find them. But then after a few, you know, after a few checks, the chicks will get, you know, smarter and bigger and they'll start hiding and start running. And it becomes gradually really tricky to catch them. And it's amazingly funny how it's always like a little game of hide and seek with these little birds. So we would, we put plastic bands on the chicks because later we will put a metal band. But the plastic band can be removed by itself when the Leg grows. So we only put the metal band when they're fully grown, so we had to recapture them every check. And eventually, when they were big enough, we would put the metal band on them.
- [47:23]
A
Got it.
- [47:24]
B
And it was really funny because there was so many. We had to get creative to catch the little chicks because they would be really good at hiding. And we had to catch them over. We never. We could never catch them all. Some of them. Some of them we didn't see for two months. And then they show up and they're like, wow, I haven't seen you for so long. What the hell?
- [47:41]
A
That's funny.
- [47:42]
B
It was so funny. And there was a part of the season, in the late season, where there was a group of chicks that we'd never caught. They were always running in the water, out of reach. And at some point, we just brought in some walkie talkies and some hides, and we made, like, a coordinated kind of ambush to catch them. And I ended up jumping in the water, in the ocean after them and, like, swimming to get them. And we.
- [48:07]
A
Oh, my God.
- [48:07]
B
Most of them. That. It was. It was really extreme and fun.
- [48:11]
A
Yeah.
- [48:11]
B
And. And we. We cut most of them that time and.
- [48:14]
A
Incredible how smart they get, right?
- [48:16]
B
It's incredible. We also had to catch the adults, so.
- [48:20]
A
Oh, wow.
- [48:20]
B
I. I had to. So I designed a trap which is kind of. We. We built this with scrap wood and, like, netting that we found, and that was in a workshop there. So we use all that material and we. So this trap would work. It's kind of has a. It's a box with nets on all walls. We would put this box on a nest with active eggs. And so the Glaucos Wingull would come in because it wants to incubate the eggs. And then when it enters the trap, it touches a little wire that activates the trapdoor.
- [48:56]
A
Okay.
- [48:56]
B
That's how we cut them, is because they want to incubate. And then we would capture them and take blood samples and morphometric measurements and all that stuff.
- [49:05]
A
Okay. Yeah. Very cool.
- [49:08]
B
It was. It was funny because they were really smart. And, you know, we had to change places because they would learn quickly that we were, you know, there to capture them.
- [49:15]
A
Yeah.
- [49:16]
B
One of them even jumped on the top of the trap and triggered the mechanism. And, like, it went right for that. It didn't touch anything else. It went straight for that little pin that was holding the door. And it just. It just detonated it. And it was like, huh.
- [49:30]
A
Yeah.
- [49:30]
B
Smart bird. They're really smart. The goals are really smart.
- [49:33]
A
Yeah.
- [49:35]
B
So that was the. The Glaucus project. But one of my favorite thing we, we did on the island was the night work for rhino auklets.
- [49:44]
A
Oh, fascinating. They're so cool. Yeah.
- [49:47]
B
So rhinoceros auklets are little. Little seabirds that are. They spend the day offshore in the ocean hunting. And at night they come back to the colonies and they will deliver fish to the youngs in their burrows. So they will fly back at night. And so the way it's done is they fly and crash land into some bushes that are at the cliffs. Yeah. This is brutal. And by repeatedly crashing in the same places around the burrows, they create these little runways. It's kind of a clearing in the bushes. So we would see these, these little tracks. Even when we were like, down the cliffs, we would look up and see all these bushes and then these cleared out tracks.
- [50:30]
A
No kidding.
- [50:31]
B
That were the runways.
- [50:33]
A
That's wild.
- [50:34]
B
Yeah. And it helped me for photography, which I'll explain later. But for the purpose of the night work, what we had to do is go in the middle of that Runway. We had to set up there at night. Yeah. 11:00pm to 3, 4 in the morning. So we would rig up a net in the middle of the Runway, which is kind of a bouncy net. It's not a. It's not a net that's meant to like, capture them. It's meant to. It's supposed to make them bounce.
- [51:00]
A
Okay.
- [51:01]
B
And then when they would hit this net and bounce on the ground, we would have to, like, capture them with a hand net. It was really frantic because we were just stationed there in the complete dark. And we started hearing all these.
- [51:14]
A
I was just gonna say, you wait to hear it.
- [51:16]
B
Yeah. They flap so loud because you hear them fly over your head. Okay. Starting like you're coming in and then.
- [51:23]
A
Yeah.
- [51:23]
B
And then you hear the wing flap and then bang in the net. And then we have to, like, jump in and catch them with the hand net. And they're so fast. Like they hit the ground. They're off, they're. They flew off. Like they're gone. So we had to be. It was. We missed a lot, but we had to, you know, do what we can. And it was a lot. We caught a bunch, though. It was. It was really successful in that regard. And what we would do with that is we would, you know, take the same measurements, the blood samples and all that, but we, we also sample all the fish that they brought back. So every bird was identified with its band and every fish sample was. Was collected. Yeah. And it's fascinating what they can do with this data. They can make big predictions on, on fish stocks or, or the success of whales and other marine mammals just by looking at how the fish population looks like in the early season. So let's say all these shorebird, all these seabirds are bringing very little of this fish, but a lot of this fish that could mean something in the late season where it will have repercussions on the fisheries, on marine mammals, on humans. It has, you know, it's been done for 30 years and it's really good for, it has that potential of predicting stuff. It's really cool.
- [52:37]
A
Gotcha. That is cool. It's so neat how it's all interconnected, you know.
- [52:42]
B
Absolutely. And it's cool that people are trying to quantify it and you know, use it as a, as a tool to help in some problem, like problems.
- [52:50]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:54]
B
And yeah, that was the night work. That was really exciting. It was fun. And we also, we had, we, we worked on pelagic cormorants, we worked on Blackleg Kittiwake.
- [53:03]
A
Nice.
- [53:04]
B
The Black Lake Kittiwake work was concentrated in a place we called the tower, which was like a big tower from the, the abandoned military base that's been purpose for, it's been repurposed for ecology. So in that tower, every, every window there's a bunch of windows. There's, it's kind of like an octagon and. Yeah, so you get like eight panels and each panels have, it's filled with windows and each window is linked to a kittiwake nest or in some cases a cormorant nest. It's amazing. So we really had that insider view of the whole cycle of their life from just getting there, making their bonds or reuniting with their mates to laying the eggs, raising the chicks. We saw so much thing happen. We witnessed so many incredible things from that having that behind the scenes view of it.
- [53:56]
A
Yeah, it's like being inside a cliff wall.
- [53:58]
B
Yeah, it was exactly. And it's, it's a one way window. So I mean they could still kind of know we were there. They would still see us.
- [54:06]
A
Yeah, of course it would still, you
- [54:08]
B
know, they would feel more, they felt more comfortable that way and they could see, they couldn't really see us well, but yeah, we would, every window could be listed up so we could take measurements on eggs, the chicks and all that and to capture the adults there was a little slit under each window and a little hook could be fit in that little slit and Then we would try to hook the legs of
- [54:32]
A
the adults and then lassoing birds.
- [54:36]
B
Yeah, ecology work is pretty. Yeah, it's pretty intense. Yeah. So we would hunt for the legs and then lift the window up and capture the birds. Yeah, but they come back to the same nest every year, even though we pretty much abduct their children every five days. Isn't that incredible?
- [54:55]
A
Yeah, I mean, I guess they're gone long enough that their memory, they just forget.
- [54:58]
B
Right?
- [54:59]
A
Maybe that's what happens.
- [55:01]
B
Maybe. And again, like, really smart birds have a lot of personalities. Every individual has its little quirks. It was hilarious. Keeping track of all that. Some, you know, we would. Some birds were really aggressive, some birds were really chill. They didn't care that we were taking the babies. Yeah, it was this whole spectrum. Everything you can think of that existed. It was amazing to witness.
- [55:25]
A
That's like such a wonderful thing. When you spend enough time around any birds, you know, and especially with something like this, it's probably, you're probably really hyper aware of it. But yeah, that's that sort of individual of a species personality in a way. Right. Just different behaviors, different tolerances and stuff like that, you know, like, it is just such a cool thing. I, you know, going back to the warbler thing, I've had individuals that, I mean, I, you know, I didn't study them and have bands or anything like that, but like you could tell, like it was the same bird coming back to the same trees year after year after like four years running. And they would behave the same, same way every time. So I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's the same bird, you know, showing back up every spring. And it would be. And it would behave differently than the other of the same warbler species in the area. You know, it's just like, this is so damn cool.
- [56:15]
B
You sit really well with the warblers because they're often singing on the same perches and all that. It's great.
- [56:20]
A
Exactly.
- [56:21]
B
When I, when I do my photography up north in Quebec, it's great. It's always the same culprit that's singing at that purchase. Oh, here he is again. Yeah, I've seen him for six days now. It's always going to be him. And then come other years, maybe he'll be back. You know, sometimes you'll get that exact same perch. Being using, like, that's suspicious.
- [56:39]
A
I know.
- [56:40]
B
Yeah.
- [56:40]
A
And then I was always like, I bet you one of these years, like I'm thinking of this one specific, like Northern Parola. I Would photograph all the time. Four years running, same, same exact tree, same behavior. And then you know, just like one year he's not back this year. You know, it's just like it was bound to happen, you know, but it was just like so cool to see it happen year after year as long as I did get to.
- [57:03]
B
Yeah. And it was cool that on the island we could keep track of because we had access the previous year. So we couldn't know. We wouldn't know if a bird was old or if it's been there with the same mate as last year. And there was all these, these couple drama between the kitty wigs.
- [57:19]
A
It's way better than reality tv.
- [57:21]
B
Exactly. That's what I'm saying. You know, it was these, these, these trouble going on. It was all kind of different open relationships or all kind of different scenarios that happened. Was really interesting. It was, it was better than TV for sure.
- [57:36]
A
No, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just more thing.
- [57:39]
B
That was another thing that was really fun. Like TV was watching the, the Glaucus Wingull trying to figure out the trap. That was really entertaining. We're just like waiting in a hide from a distance looking at the traps and just look at the reaction. Some of them just go straight in and get captured. Some of them are just looking at it. Not sure like you would see them. Sometimes they will peek their head in and like nah, I don't like this. And just go back.
- [58:00]
A
Oh, funny. Yeah.
- [58:02]
B
Yeah.
- [58:04]
A
That's so cool. And what was the, the third main species you were working with there?
- [58:09]
B
So we also had the, we had the storm petrels. We didn't capture these ones. We didn't have the, the permits at the moment. So the only monitoring we did on these was with burrow cameras. We had to, we used burrow cameras to look and we found nests and reported data from in that way.
- [58:28]
A
Okay.
- [58:29]
B
And we also worked on tufted puffins which was. We had to, you know, find nests which was basically you put your hand in a hole and if it bites, there's a nest.
- [58:38]
A
Is that how it goes? Really?
- [58:39]
B
That's how it goes, yeah. Yeah. We were just. We had the section of cliff that we know had every year has. Has puffins and we had to just check them out by hand. And you don't want to put gloss because you want to feel the tunnel because it's tricky to find where the chamber is. And yeah, so we get a little snipe. But the thing is they, they wouldn't really bite us hard when they're in the Nest. Gotcha. But if we. When we would. In the cases we didn't capture a lot of tufted puffins, it was mostly the chicks. But in the cases when we captured an adult, it would be like. And we would take it out of the. The burrow. That's where it would be completely, like, pissed off and start biting. But when you would put the hand, it would nibble at it, like in the barrel, but it wouldn't go crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [59:24]
A
Nice. Yeah. Do they have good bite strength? Are they pretty strong?
- [59:27]
B
Yeah. These ones were the worst ones that I didn't get bitten by them, but there was someone who got bitten. Shout out. Lorelei, a good member of the team, was bitten throughout through her two layers of clothes and her stomach was bleeding. Jeez.
- [59:44]
A
Man.
- [59:47]
B
Oh, yeah, it is. And they're really strong birds. They're really, like, muscular and strong.
- [59:52]
A
Are they just.
- [59:53]
B
Just the rhino Oculus was incredible. They're small birds, yet they're so tiny.
- [59:57]
A
Yeah.
- [59:58]
B
Oh, the bite was just. Ouch. The claws. The claws was almost worse. It's these. Oh, no kidding. They dig burrows. They're good.
- [60:07]
A
That makes sense.
- [60:08]
B
So they would use all these train. And they're really fast with their legs, so it was just like they would just scrape with their giant claws and just destroy your hand.
- [60:16]
A
Oh, man.
- [60:18]
B
Just the pure strength of their legs was surprising, given how small they are.
- [60:22]
A
Yeah. I only ever got clamped on by a laughing gull once. I was trying to save it. It got, like, trapped under a bunch of, like, you know, debris on the shoreline from a wave. Like, a wave came over and, like, trapped it and, like, pinned it under, like. And it was just. Barely had its head out. So I went into, like, you know, help pull it out. And it was just snapping at me like crazy. So finally I was just like, you know, I just got to give him my thing, my hand. So I put my hand down, he clamped onto my thumb, and I was able to, like, pull him out and get him. But, like, it didn't break the skin, but I'm just like. I'm like, damn, man. Like that. I felt that. That's for sure. Okay.
- [60:56]
B
They're really like. It snips like, it's. It's. I don't know how to explain it, but it's like a snap. It just like. Ouch. It's.
- [61:02]
A
Yeah.
- [61:03]
B
It's not like. Whereas the rhino would just kind of shear your skin off and like.
- [61:06]
A
Oh. Oh, geez. Ouch. Oh, man. Yeah. So, like, I wanted to ask earlier too. You Know, you mentioned that you did most of the photography on the day off. Did you ever get to document any of this stuff for the research? Was any of, like, was photography useful in any aspect that way?
- [61:25]
B
Yeah, yeah. I use the photos for. Someone was working on analyzing the. The tufted puffin fish that they were bringing back. I got to use the photos of every, you know, photos I had of a puffin with the fish I would send to them.
- [61:38]
A
Oh, nice.
- [61:40]
B
Yeah, but, yeah, I think that's about it. Like, it was just nice. I also documented a lot of procedures just for, you know, for me. So I have, like, I have this really cool, you know, video footage of us doing these things and.
- [61:55]
A
Yeah.
- [61:55]
B
Working with the birds. Yeah.
- [61:57]
A
And so was this also your first time getting to experience seabirds and a seabird colony?
- [62:03]
B
I've been to one seabird colony in Quebec, in far eastern Quebec in Maine. It was really great. But nothing. The scope of this, like. Yeah, like, it was. It was great, though. But, like, this colony here is. It's so. The scope of it is enormous. So many birds here compared to anywhere else I've been.
- [62:23]
A
Yeah, well. And plus, just the access that you got as well, right, with doing the work. Yeah, I mean, that's also just an incredible thing, for sure.
- [62:31]
B
Absolutely. Like, I had because of the work, I knew where to find the animals and I knew what the breeding areas were. I knew, you know, all that stuff, which was really helpful. And for instance, the night work, it opened my mind to trying to photograph in these runways. Yeah, it could make a good segue into photographing the animals there.
- [62:54]
A
Definitely.
- [62:55]
B
Yeah, it's. It's been really helpful to. To do this work because I had, you know, every time I was working, I was like, okay, I can come back here on my day off and maybe try this, try that.
- [63:05]
A
Sure. Yeah. No, I mean, it had to be, right? I mean, I talk about it all the time. Just like, the more knowledge you have about your subject, the more prepared you can be, the more, you know, you can, like, be ready for where they're going to be, know where the light's going to be. Like, just every bit of information helps. And having, like, this much information has got to be a huge help for successful photography.
- [63:25]
B
That is so true. And that information is honestly the reason behind a lot of the photos. Because, for instance, the tufted puffins, I didn't get a good photo in so long. It took me months to figure out how to get a good photo of them. And then when I figured it out, it was like, Every time I would go out, I would come back with my favorite photo. Every time.
- [63:43]
A
Oh, that's.
- [63:43]
B
Often it was just about, like, cracking the code of when they're perched, like, exactly. Which habitat they like, which area is good for photography, which area I can actually access, you know, y. It was all this. This little recipe and figure it out with time. But I'm. Yeah, it was a lot of. It needed a lot of information to figure that out because I. You know, when I got that, I was like, damn, like, how am I gonna photograph a puffin?
- [64:10]
A
It's totally the. It's so funny how it all works too. And, you know, you definitely. I think we all realize it to an extent, but sometimes I think it's easy to overlook because it just all of a sudden. Or maybe not all of a sudden, right. But just you work and work and you work at something, and then you do figure it out, and then it becomes so repeatable, and you can just. As a photographer, you can just go out and get it for the most part, right. It's wildlife, so it's never 100%, but with, you know, a high probability. You can repeat the process and go to these areas and photograph this stuff, and then it starts to seem easy in a way. Meanwhile, if you cut back to when you first started trying to photograph a specific species, it seemed like, near impossible. And it's just wild how with enough time and information and experience, it can go from what seems near impossible to relatively easy and predictable.
- [64:59]
B
That's so true. Even back home with the warblers, I've been photographing at the. Them at the same park. And every year I feel like it. I get a little better and I discover a little patch that I. And it's. It's all from the previous years of knowing exactly. Of doing this. Because I've seen them this year in that patch. I've seen them this year in that section of the park. And so it's. It's always like polishing this. This knowledge. And every year it's a little. I feel like I get more photos that I like. I feel like I can get closer to them without ever flushing them totally. It's wonderful how it all lines up with time. It is just like practice and time. It's like. It's just now I don't even have to think. It's just, okay, I'm gonna go here. I'm gonna wait, and it's gonna show up, probably. And then. Yeah. Yeah. The powerful thing with it, I think, is you can predict things with this, too. It's healthy. You'll be like, okay, if I wait there. There's. Chances are this world might just go on that branch or on that bush because it's been working in that direction. This, this and that. And it's so helpful. It's amazing how much it can help.
- [66:00]
A
Yeah. And it's like, I think that's the, like, the wonderful message I love to share with newer photographers is like, just keep at it. And, you know, like, don't underestimate the importance of just being out there. Even if you're not getting photos in that, you know, at a given time, if you're out there and watching and learning and just like, I think that's probably like, time in the field, I would argue, is more important than any photographic technique to get better at wildlife photography.
- [66:32]
B
Oh, yeah. It's more important than talent. It's more important than the gear. It's more important than. It's. Everything is just the amount of. The more you do it, the more opportunities you'll get and the more you.
- [66:44]
A
Exactly.
- [66:45]
B
It's really the most important factor. You can be really, you know, good and really artistic, but if nothing beats, you know, just time experiencing it and trying stuff and putting your brain into photography or birding mode.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally. So now let me see if I can get back to that question I was asking earlier. Did you have a favorite spot that you like to go photograph any specific birds? Like, was there. Was there a standout spot or was it just. Oh, yeah, yeah, there was.
- [67:16]
B
There definitely was. It's hard to pick one favorite, but I think I have to go with the shipwreck.
- [67:21]
A
Yeah.
- [67:22]
B
So just to give it a little bit of respect, it's. It's this amazing giant rusty shipwreck, which, you know, it boasts a colony of kiwi cormorants, and there's even puffins in this thing in it. And you can just freely access it. You can go in it, you can climb to the first floor, which is kind of. I've only done it once because it was really. I. I thought it was pretty dangerous. I didn't want to just risk stuff for no reason. Sure. But on one of my last trip there, I actually went up and I got some different angles. It was really interesting to see it from the first story from up there. It's pretty much. It's two story and this, you know, this giant metal rusty thing just standing there and there's all these plants that are growing in it because it's been reclaimed by wildlife. Probably. Probably A lot of birds have you know made droppings on it. Just drop some seeds and that's probably my guess on how became full of plants. So it's this amazing contrast of rusty tones and you know scrap metal and all these plants and these seabirds. And it was just the experience for photography there was just unmatched like the potential for. For composition there was incredible. I don't think. I don't know if I'll ever. Being a place that has so much opportunity for. For photography. Yeah, it's going to be a hard one. And Yep.
- [68:47]
A
What. What gear did you bring with you photography wise?
- [68:52]
B
I brought my 1 to 4100 to 4 F8 and I brought a 135 millimeter 1.8 which was my. Nice. My most used one.
- [69:03]
A
Was it.
- [69:04]
B
Yeah, yeah. Even. Yeah, it's. It's my favorite lens of all times. The 135 1.8. I really like this.
- [69:09]
A
It is nice.
- [69:10]
B
Yeah. So I really had a lot of fun with it. I used. I also brought my macro lens, my 24 mil and I also use it for. For birds as well. I got to do some wide angle photography. Yeah I also photographed some bugs there as well which was really fun. Some really strange bugs there. And yeah, and I brought two camera bodies. I had a Canon R10 and the Canon R8.
- [69:32]
A
Okay.
- [69:32]
B
So one full frame camera and one crop sensor camera.
- [69:37]
A
Yeah. Nice. Going back to the ship. What was like what were you looking for in that? What were you trying to capture in and around the ship? Were you trying to just get like, you know, interesting close up moments or were you trying to include the ship as much as possible or a little bit of mix of both.
- [69:54]
B
I was trying to use all three lands as much as I could. I did a lot of. I mixed it up a lot. I really tried to get close ups small in frame environmental like mid telephoto. I tried really getting into different type of perspectives. So usually what I would do is I would just come on the side of the ship and I would see it from the outside and start photographing birds coming in and out or just the whole ship as a wide angle with the birds coming in. And then I would go in and start photographing with a shorter like with a 135 lens which gave me a bit more reach so I could go like take photos of some of the nests from a distance and some of all the different composition that the ship offered. It was often you know I couldn't get close for wide angle for every type of composition. But the telephotos allowed to compress some of that landscape in some cases and you know, offer different, different views of it. So I really tried everything I could. And most the birds inside were kittiwakes and cormorants. But when I was, when I was waiting outside, I would see puffins go in and out. They would nest on the top of the, of the ship. They had burrows there.
- [71:13]
A
Yeah.
- [71:14]
B
And I would sometimes see puffins peek out of a, of a rusty open hole of like a, or a door or weird things. And it's such a weird thing to see. It's like this seabird who's emerging from a giant rusty door.
- [71:29]
A
Yeah.
- [71:29]
B
It's unreal. And I would, you know, wait to like outside of the shipwreck to get that chance to photograph them. And I got a bunch of photos of them exiting or coming in the ship. And it was just fascinating to see all these different birds, you know, using this ship as their home, raising all these chicks and facing the elements and facing the predation. There was eagles that were nesting at the top of the mast on that ship. That's predator number one. But it was, it was falcons around all sorts of disease. Botulism.
- [72:02]
A
Yeah.
- [72:03]
B
Yeah.
- [72:04]
A
Wow.
- [72:04]
B
It was incredible to witness all that firsthand.
- [72:07]
A
One of the things that really stands out as I scroll through and look at a lot of the photography and I think, you know, a good portion of these certainly came from that ship was your use of like looking for openings in these man made objects and then photographing the birds through them. So, you know, it makes like you were using the man made stuff as like a framing element. Was that something that was obvious when you first got there or something that you learned along the way?
- [72:32]
B
It's kind of, I think it's, it's just a habit I've developed with the, with the year where I always, you know, trying to frame things with dark regions or pale regions in the frame and try to see what works and just, I always move my camera and you know, I'm not static, I'm trying to see. Okay. But if I move on the left, is the dark, the darker part of the bar and going to make the bird stand now? Or is the pale part. What if I go a little bit like down or up? Is it going to give me more depth from the foreground? I think it's just a habit of trying things and trying to not just stay in one static position. Just really trying it out and moving a lot. I would say. Yeah, yeah.
- [73:10]
A
No, I mean because it really shows, like, I just. I love that stuff. It gives so much of a, you know, it's like the, the frame within a frame kind of thing. It's. It's such a wonderful composition thing. And I'm. I'm always just like my, you know, personal preference leans towards those more darker, dramatic images where things have, you know, like, are just like lit against the dark and stuff like that. So it definitely just appealed to my own personal preferences, which was nice. But, you know, the other thing that stood out is like, it seems like those environments allowed the opportunity for a lot of very unique lighting conditions. So, you know, beams of light just coming through, whether it be direct sun or just, you know, an opening, allowing soft light to come in. And then you use that to a wonderful effect many different times in a
- [73:58]
B
lot of the photos. Thank you so much, man. Yeah, it was wonderful for that stuff. Just having all these, the light hitting all these different beams in different angles. You have all the, the little holes in the hole that would, you know, the light would pierce in.
- [74:13]
A
Yeah.
- [74:14]
B
Spotlight. It would spotlight, you know, some, some of the, the nests. And it also, the framing. Just having this, this wood, not wooden, the steel frame. Yeah. Around. You know, I would be in the ship shooting outside, like shooting towards the outside of the ship. But it would frame whatever I was shooting with. It was always these weird, you know, like there was openings on the. The roof, on the sides.
- [74:40]
A
Yeah.
- [74:41]
B
So you're not always sure what's going on. It's like, oh, that's the best. These layers and these sections of. It was really, you know, just like a complex scene. But it was so fun to try to piece out how to make it, you know, a bit more harmonious there maybe, or.
- [74:55]
A
Or simplify it in a way. Right.
- [74:57]
B
Yeah, exactly. And sometimes I did the opposite. I try to keep it chaotic, sometimes I try to frame it so it's more in order, if you may. But.
- [75:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally. And then, I mean, and you did a ton of great stuff with that. And then you also did a lot of sort of really trying to show the relationship of these birds and these man made objects and how they've adapted to using them for nesting and living and surviving and stuff like that. And you know, some of them just like I. I really like the stuff that's just, you know, showing this like gritty man made environment next to them. And then some like a little bit more humorous. Like the one shot that just stands like where you have like the whole row of urinals underneath of like over top and stuff like that.
- [75:46]
B
On day one, I was like, wow, I got on the island, I was like, I need to get my camera and take a photo of the urinal kid weight. That was irony number one.
- [75:55]
A
So funny. But no. Anyway, I guess my question is how much was that a conscious decision to try and really show that relationship?
- [76:07]
B
I think it's not that conscious. It was mostly the story told itself really. I feel like wherever you point your camera, especially in the shipwreck or at the abandoned buildings, wherever you look, you just see how the birds have managed to make a nest and rare like raise chicks in this place. So you just like look at it, you're like, wow. And for instance, there's a photo I have taken where it's a kittiwake that's been unfortunately hung string by the neck. And again stories says itself, you know, like it's kind of like you just look at the photo and you know exactly what's going on. It's a human structure and the, the bird is trying to adapt. So I would say of course I wanted to like showcase this, this story. But it really just, you know, it told itself pretty much.
- [76:56]
A
Yeah, totally. Did you have much experience with, you know, urban wildlife prior to that, like in your photography?
- [77:05]
B
Yes, a little bit. I've. I've purposely went to the city to photograph some pigeons and sparrows. I really like it. It's. It's refreshing in a way. I wouldn't do it too often, but it's fun every once in a while. Just like I tend to go in the city when there's, there's not much going on. Like in the summer. I will go in the city someday. Just take some photos with urban lice. It's. It's something I really like and it's. I feel like this trip has really, you know, pushed me into like learning how to include them in a way in photography where it is as like a main focus or just like as a frame. So it's really like. It's been really good knowledge to experiment this with all these different human made structures there.
- [77:50]
A
Do you have any experience with other genres of photography outside of like nature and wildlife in your.
- [77:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, I've done some, some portraits, some wedding stuff.
- [78:00]
A
Okay.
- [78:01]
B
Yeah, I do some work. I still do it. Yeah. But mostly it's mostly been wildlife photography. But I. Since I've been into wildlife photography, I've developed other, I've tried other things.
- [78:13]
A
Okay.
- [78:14]
B
It wasn't the other. It wasn't before. I did other things and then it was after the birding.
- [78:18]
A
Yeah, well, just, I mean, seriously, like the, the compositions you came up with, like, it just has such an amazing, you have an amazing eye for, for capturing that place there. And like I said, that connection with the, the man made objects because I feel like it can just be so easy to see sort of like the obvious, like just here's, here's my bird and it's on a man made thing, like done, like just do that. Right. But you really played with, you know, the use of light and drama and there's a lot of black and white there that you've done, which I think really shows off the shape of like the form and the contrast of the subjects against the darker environment around them and stuff like that. And so that's why I was just asking because, like, you know, it just, I don't know, it seems like you have an incredible eye for that and I'm just wondering where that developed from. Is it just from your wildlife photography or do you have other art in your past?
- [79:14]
B
Well, first of all, thank you so much. It means a lot. It really means a lot. And it's, it really came from photography. But I've been into other arts a lot too. But like draw.
- [79:25]
A
Okay.
- [79:25]
B
As a, when I was a kid, I was drawing a lot. It's just something I've also recently started doing again with birds.
- [79:32]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [79:33]
B
But. And also music is a giant part of my life. Part of my life. It's one of my biggest passion in life with birding.
- [79:42]
A
Okay.
- [79:42]
B
So the, I feel like the. But this isn't about composition. It's just like what really, like the fact that it's all, you know, just pretty much what interests me and all that is. Yeah, I sort of lost my train of thought there maybe.
- [79:56]
A
No, it's okay. Yeah, I was just, I. I'm just curious like if there was some kind of other, you know, experiences and art education in your history that kind of really led you to be able to see and compose this way. Because I don't feel like a lot of wildlife photographers sent to a location like that would have captured something stuff in that way, you know, and so I really applaud you for that. And I'm like, you know, I mean, I'm just scrolling through. It's just like image after image. I mean, like, this is. It's some of the most interesting bird photography I've seen in a very long time.
- [80:32]
B
Wow, thank you. Thank you.
- [80:35]
A
Yeah, this is the kind of like, this is like, like submit to, you know, wildlife Contest as a portfolio kind of stuff like this collection as a whole is just, I mean it's over the top, dude.
- [80:45]
B
I definitely want to try to apply to some contests especially Portfolio would be really fun. I might try it out.
- [80:52]
A
Yeah, I mean I feel like that is where to go with it. Just because you have such a strong collection of varied images but that all have the, you know, a cohesive story of being from that one place. Have you thought about or have you thought about anything of like doing something with just these photos? Like as a collection of images, a website, a book or anything like that?
- [81:21]
B
Yes. So I've been curating the photos and putting them into different categories because I have photos that are really industrial and photos that are really just the nature and no man made structure around. But I've filtered them into categories and I'm working on a book book right now, photography book which is going to be fun because you can get all these series, you know, on one page sometimes or like some photos that have this. The same atmosphere together. It's going to be really fun. I'm already making it but it's really fun to see all these, these series come to life and have you ever
- [81:55]
A
done a project like that before?
- [81:57]
B
I've never done that. It's the first time I've done this.
- [81:59]
A
Yeah. That's exciting, man.
- [82:01]
B
Yeah. I'm about halfway, halfway done now on the book. It's been so fun to just see the photos with the same color palette all in the same page. You know, it's just fun.
- [82:11]
A
You're doing the layout entirely yourself, right?
- [82:13]
B
Entirely the whole design. And I've just recently I've made a portfolio on, on my Alaskan experience on my website which I, I released to two days ago. So it's. It's some of the most. The photos that I really like should be in my Middleton portfolio. They're nice in different series there but it's just my. The bulk of my favorite photos there.
- [82:35]
A
Oh, awesome. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'll make sure to drop a link to that for everybody listening. But the book thing sounds super exciting.
- [82:45]
B
Yeah. Wow.
- [82:46]
A
Halfway done already. Dude, you're crushing it. What are you using to design the book?
- [82:50]
B
I'm doing it on Canva. Just. I'm not printing it. I'm not going to print it through Canva using it's. It's browser base. It's easy. My computer is pretty bad too. It's just like it just runs. It runs well enough. So yeah, it's kind of like it's comparable to Like Illustrator, I think.
- [83:09]
A
Sure.
- [83:10]
B
Illustrator, I think Illustrator is much better, though. But.
- [83:13]
A
Well, InDesign, I think, would be the comparable. Oh, yeah, you're right. Like the page layout one.
- [83:16]
B
Yep, yep, exactly. But no, that's also basic, but it works for the job.
- [83:22]
A
I mean, listen, like, sometimes simple is great with a book. Like, every time. Every book I've ever designed, even using InDesign has always just. Just been like, just the photo on the frame, like, that's it. Like, I don't do any borders, no fancy, you know, crazy backgrounds or nothing. It's just like I just need something to lay them out because I want. I want the photos to speak for
- [83:39]
B
themselves, you know, that's how I feel too, a lot. Most the pages will be a single photo, except for these little series. And I. I will have a little bit of text just introducing what it is, but I want to keep it, you know, photo centered. So the biggest thing will always be like, photo, like as the biggest as it can be on the screen.
- [83:55]
A
Yeah.
- [83:56]
B
I mean, on the page and a little bit of text and. Yeah. I'm just trying to figure out the order of things, how I want to present all this. But it's fun.
- [84:04]
A
I got to say, man, it is a lot of work. Right. But the few times I've done it, I feel like designing a book around your own wildlife photography is maybe one of the most fulfilling experiences of, like, ways of presenting it that I've ever come across in, like, in the ways I've done it, you know, And I've. Oh, yeah. I can't, like, hung gallery.
- [84:23]
B
That's when I really, like, wow. When I exactly see it, I'm like, wow, this is it. Like, it's. Yeah, Yeah.
- [84:30]
A
I feel like you can tell so much of a story, right. Because there's. There's a sequence to a book. Right. It's not. It's different than just hanging prints on a wall where anybody can, like, walk up and look at anyone, you know? I mean, like, this is. You decide what go together exactly on a page. You get to decide the sequence of them. The size, narrative. Yeah, totally. Right. And even. Just like, Even if you did, let's say it was a book with no text, there's still a narrative of what the feeling is when you get to the page. Like, do you want a page to be bold? Do you want it to be subtle with the photos?
- [85:00]
B
Yeah.
- [85:01]
A
There's just so much that goes into it. I just. I wish I had time to do more of it because it's. I've always enjoyed it. Not saying that I'm good at it, but it's just a fun process.
- [85:10]
B
No, that's really true. Yeah.
- [85:13]
A
I'm so glad you're doing that.
- [85:14]
B
Yeah, I'm really excited. I can't wait to just have the product and look at it. It's, it's like I said, it's really fun to see all the, the different series together and see the color palettes come to life.
- [85:26]
A
Yeah, that's so good, man.
- [85:28]
B
And a lot of calling to do. A lot of, you know, just like polishing. Yeah, it's really fun. And the website is the same. It's a lot of little things. Like I thought it would be done in a week, but it's been three weeks. I've been working every. Yeah, it's a lot of little finicky little things going on, but it's better
- [85:48]
A
to give it time. Right? Like you don't have like a hard deadline so you're not like, you know, just trying to rush things out the door. It's just like, take your time, make it the way you want.
- [85:56]
B
And it is satisfying to do that, that work of synthesizing stuff, all the work you've done or. Yeah, it's really cool. It's, it's a nice thing to do. Afterwards you get this little, you know, this view from, from after, which is different. I love it, man. Yeah.
- [86:12]
A
Yeah, it's really cool. Hey, listen, I got one hard question to wrap up the show here. We'll see if you got an answer for this and if not, that's quite all right.
- [86:20]
B
Yeah.
- [86:20]
A
Do you have a story? Can you share like a favorite photo capturing story from your time on Middleton Island?
- [86:27]
B
Photo capturing story?
- [86:29]
A
Yeah. Do you have like a. Do you have one that stands out that was just like. This was just an incredible moment and like that and the story that goes with it.
- [86:36]
B
One that comes to mind is when I was waiting at the shipwreck, I. I wasn't sure if the puffins were around. It was in the early times. I was like, oh, is there any puffins there? And I remember waiting around and just looking at the birds come and go. And then I see a little something peek from a giant door and I look with my camera and there's this little puffin. And I took a photo of him peeking out of this rusty door and I just, I don't know. That was something so funny to me. Just not expecting it. And then just seeing a face from this, this past apocalyptical area just looking at me like, oh, that's a human.
- [87:13]
A
Yeah. And then it just. It, like what you were after just appeared.
- [87:17]
B
Exactly. It's been a few times I was there, I was trying to find them, and this time it just appeared. I was like, oh, wow. That's where you. That's. That's where they hang out. Okay.
- [87:27]
A
That's so funny, man. That's awesome.
- [87:29]
B
You know, so many amazing things happen. It would be hard to just pick one. This one that I just. Just, you know.
- [87:34]
A
Yeah, totally. It was just.
- [87:36]
B
Wow. Yeah.
- [87:38]
A
Yeah. That's a great one. Well, Kareem, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. It was wonderful hearing about all this and I. I seriously mean it. I cannot wait to see this book. I'm gonna go check out the website as soon as we're done talking. I'll make sure to share the link so everybody else can check it out. But yeah, just incredible, incredible stuff, man. Congrats.
- [88:01]
B
Thank you so much. It was a blast talking to you. Thank you for having me, man.
- [88:05]
A
Yeah, definitely. All right, have a great day, everyone. Thanks so much. Hey, this is Ray Hennessey. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode. Please subscribe in your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.