246: Rob Read and Georgina Steytler

Summary

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Wildlife Photo Chat – Episode 246: Rob Read and Georgina Steytler

Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Ray Hennessy
Guests: Rob Read & Georgina Steytler

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Ray is joined by two well-known wildlife photographers, Rob Read and Georgina Steytler, for an honest and frequently hilarious discussion about creativity, authenticity, and the quirks of life behind (and occasionally in front of) the lens. The trio explore how social media has changed wildlife photography, share behind-the-scenes stories from recent photo outings and workshops, and reflect on meaningful—and sometimes overwhelming—experiences at major photo competitions. Expect plenty of sharp wit, honest critique, and warm camaraderie.

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Main Themes & Key Discussion Points

1. Social Media: Then & Now

Timestamps: 00:29–16:35

• Then & Now: Georgina reminisces about the early Instagram era when bird photographers were a rare breed, making it possible to know almost everyone in the genre. Now, "there's like, thousands, literally thousands and thousands of more people. It's insane." (Georgina, 00:43)
• Growth vs. Engagement: The focus has shifted from follower numbers to genuine engagement:

  “When they actually looked at the engagement, [Tipling] actually had a better engagement rate than a lot of the younger ones because their people were just like, I guess it's just a popularist thing.” (Georgina, 03:37)

• Authenticity Over Trends: All agree it’s more sustaining to be authentic (even if it’s a buzzword), connect with like-minded people, and not worry about ‘curating’ perfection or chasing the latest trends.

  "If you’re not authentic, then you’re the same as everybody else. So many people on social media, you’re just going to disappear into this sea." (Georgina, 05:51)

• Personality Matters: The group agrees personality often trumps technical ability for long-term engagement.

  “The YouTube channels that do really well are people that are charismatic and likable.” (Rob, 06:50)

• Personal Content & "Imperfection": Sharing personal struggles and non-bird content not only grew Georgina’s audience, but deepened real connections.
• Trends to Avoid: They lament overdone social media tropes (like “my post didn’t go viral” posts), calling for substance over bandwagoning.

2. Creativity & Experimenting in the Field

Timestamps: 17:34–32:43

• Chasing the "Perfect" Swan: Georgina and Rob recount their quest to outshoot Andy Parkinson’s famous swan photos—and admit it’s a tough (and funny) challenge.
• Creative Approaches:
  • Experimentation with high key images, shooting through foliage, and slow shutter for creative effect.
  • Being honest when experiments fail—sometimes, “you need some light!”
  • The thrill and nerves of “epic moments” when nature aligns:

    “You get that feeling... the hairs stand up on the back of your neck and you know when you get that feeling of, I'm in this spot at this particular moment, the light was incredible.” (Rob, 28:54)

  • Panic and pressure to perform in such moments—equipment mishaps, flock photography challenges.
• Learning From Each Other: They laugh about "dumb and dumber" moments (bad planning, good intentions), honest critique, and playful rivalry that drives them to improve.

3. Workshops, Feedback, and Honest Critique

Timestamps: 49:02–56:46

• Giving and Receiving Critique:
  • Value in having trusted peers give honest, sometimes blunt, feedback.
  • It’s hard to be objective about your own photos—emotion clouds judgement.
  • Advice: Don’t ask for detailed analysis; instead, ask peers to “just tell me which one you like best and which one you like least” without explanations (Georgina, 54:16).
• Processing Ruts: Discussing how habits form around cropping, color balance, and why it’s important to consciously break out of those cycles.

4. Companionship vs. Solitude in Photography

Timestamps: 41:40–48:40

• Solo vs. Social:
  • Rob usually shoots solo but cherishes memorable moments in good company (“The best times are when you’re with good company.” Rob, 42:26)
  • Georgina—aware she can be a "challenge" to shoot with—shares that shooting with the right person (same creative wavelength) is key.
  • Both agree that honest feedback, good-natured ribbing, and constructive competition can spark creativity.
• Balance: "Some of my best photos have come when I’ve had not much to work with, not a great subject. So you’re forced to think outside the box..." (Georgina, 47:13)

5. Behind the Scenes: International Gatherings & Award Events

Timestamps: 60:19–66:47

• Wildlife Photographer of the Year:
  • Georgina describes being flown to London for the competition, meeting photographic heroes, and feeling the pinch of both excitement and loss following her father’s death.
  • Favorite moments: Interactions with legends like Andy Parkinson, Audun Rikardsen, and Sandra Bartocha, and the sense of a “global community.”
• Connection over Networking:

  “I don’t like the word networking because...I’m not going out to network, but you just end up meeting people that you get along really well with.” (Georgina, 66:07)

6. Burnout, Obsession, and Life Balance

Timestamps: 75:09–80:17

• Making the Most of Limited Time:
  • Both guests are “all in” on photography during travel. “We are completely and utterly obsessed. Even if we wanted to do something else, it would actually be impossible because you can't not notice birds.” (Georgina, 76:03)
  • Ray mentions his own need for moderation as a full-time photographer, mixing other activities to avoid burnout.
• Bird Nerd Solidarity:

  “It was a base level thing for us to get into this relationship that we’re both. Okay, okay with always chasing the birds, even when we’re talking to each other.” (Ray, 81:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Authenticity in Social Media:
  "If you're not authentic, then you're the same as everybody else. So you might as well be yourself." — Georgina (05:51)
• On Creative Panic:
  "You get that feeling...the hairs stand up on the back of your neck...the light was incredible. You couldn't have scripted it." — Rob (28:54)
• Brutal Honesty:
  "I said, 'oh, no, that's bad.' No." — Georgina, critiquing Rob’s photo (50:22)
• Rivalry and Humour:
  "Well, we call ourselves dumb and dumber, actually." — Georgina (21:26)
  "We tried saying something nice to each other and then it felt really creepy." (59:44)
• On Life’s Perspective Shifts:
  "You have these ideas in your head, but you’re not really thinking it through properly." — Georgina (26:02)
• Personal Loss, Authentic Sharing:
  "When my dad died, I just thought...I posted his woodturning photos...so many people were like, yes...They just...loved it." — Georgina (13:24–14:43)
• Competition Advice:
  "You shouldn't enter to win...you should just aim to be a finalist." — Georgina (70:30)
• Traveling for Photography:
  “If you go somewhere...photography, or you spend time with somebody that you—Georgina's on the other side of the world for me, obviously...you think, I'm going to make the most of this time...” — Rob (76:47)

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Highlights by Timestamp

• 00:29–16:35: Social media’s past and present, authenticity, and engagement
• 17:34–32:43: Recent outings, creative experiments, and comedic misadventures
• 41:40–48:40: Pros and cons of shooting alone vs. with other photographers
• 49:02–56:46: How to get and give honest feedback, processing ruts, creative trends
• 60:19–66:47: Emotional realities and highlights of major photo competitions
• 75:09–80:17: Obsession vs. moderation in photography-focused travel

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Conclusion

Episode 246 bursts with energy, humor, and candor as Ray, Rob, and Georgina peel back the curtain on life as wildlife photographers—online and off. Listeners are treated to wisdom about authenticity, artistic growth through failure and feedback, the joy (and panic) of chasing magic moments, and the value of real connections, both virtual and in-person. This episode is a must-listen for anyone craving creativity, community, and a good laugh.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Wildlife Photo Chat. I don't have one, but I have two guests. The amazing Rob Reed and Georgina Staedtler. How's it going, Rob and Georgina?

[B]

Hi, Ray. Yeah, good, thanks.

[C]

Good, good, yeah.

[B]

You?

[A]

I'm doing. I'm hanging in there. I'm so busy working on this Photoshop course project, but I'm glad to take a break and chat with you guys. I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Georgina, it's been forever since I've had you on the show.

[C]

No, I know, I know, I know, I know.

[A]

I don't even remember. I gotta look it up. How long ago would you guess it was?

[C]

Oh, I reckon it was years and years ago because, you know, back in the days when Instagram there was, like,

[D]

you pretty much probably knew all the bird photographers.

[C]

There was so few of us, you know? It's really weird, isn't it? And now there's like, thousands, literally thousands and thousands of thousands of more people. It's. It's insane.

[A]

It's a great thing, isn't it?

[D]

Well, it is, but I kind of

[C]

wonder how you know people now, because unless they come up and a lot of people look at mine and they go, oh, you've got like 70,000 followers. And I say, I got them like,

[D]

10 years ago, and it hasn't grown

[A]

any of them, right?

[D]

And it's, like, historical because I said,

[C]

back when I grow, I grew my following.

[D]

Like, you didn't even have to post

[C]

a photo, and you grew by 50 followers a day.

[D]

And you can't do that.

[A]

I remember those days.

[D]

Yeah, I know.

[C]

And it's, like, completely misleading. I just want to say it doesn't mean anything.

[B]

Yeah. I feel rather jealous I missed out on that growth period.

[C]

Well, Rob doesn't have any followers.

[B]

No, I don't.

[C]

It really.

[A]

Listen, Rob, it really was like that, man. Like, I don't know how. I mean, you have to be a videographer now. Like, you have to be into the video now to get it to go anywhere, I think. You know,

[C]

And that's a really interesting thing, too. I don't know how you do it. Right. But I. I was talking to my friend Athena, and we decided, because we wanted to do it for this campaign and we just decided we're not young enough because the young people just seem to know what to do. And I just go into this, like, mental, like, I. I just freeze. I can't. I can't do it. I can't. I don't know. I don't I can't work it out.

[A]

I've absolutely learned that I suck at it. But you know what, I'm just like, I don't care. I'm just going to keep doing it. However I am going to do it and not worry about the ways to do it currently and what works and all that. Because if I get caught up in that I just get frustrated and then I don't want to do it anymore. So I'm like, you know what if I get some following, cool, and if not, whatever, who cares?

[C]

Well, you know what's really interesting because I think we get used to this idea of having a feed is really pretty and everything and when I was doing this recent like campaign and my, my father passed away and then I, I post his wood turning photos because. And I'd never done that before because I was thinking I have to just do birds. And suddenly I did all of this stuff and actually my following grew. It was really weird and I was sharing political stuff like a campaign against Alcoa because they want to clear all this land and I thought it's going to really tick people off, whatever. And I thought I don't care. But actually I found out that's when I realized actually I hadn't taken me a while. But people really don't care. And if they're invested in you, I mean if you lose people, they're not really interested in what you're interested in anyway you want to lose. And they were there for.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

That's exactly right. So the followers I do have, like they're people who really respect me on what I'm doing and I don't have to pretend to be anyone else because they just, you know, they're not going to. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's that sort of quality over quantity thing, isn't it?

[C]

Oh, and you know what? We were talking to David Tipling and he doesn't have, you know, as big a following as some of these like younger Olympus people and they, and they did a review apparently of all of their people, like their ambassadors and he said he was worried but he said when they actually looked at the engagement, right. He actually had a better engagement rate than a lot of the younger ones because their people were just like, I guess it's just a popularist thing.

[A]

Whereas tacitly connected. Yeah, right.

[B]

They're not really superficial, isn't it when you get that many.

[A]

Totally. Yeah. Well, real quick.

[B]

That's what I have to say anyway

[D]

would you know real quick here.

[A]

Georgina, you ready? I looked it up October 23, 2019. Six years ago.

[B]

No way.

[D]

I feel old. I feel old.

[A]

It was episode eight of the show and I'm on episode, I don't even know, 200 and some now. No, do you know what?

[C]

I have jowls now. I'm pretty sure I didn't have J.

[A]

So that was the pre jowl recording. Got it.

[D]

Oh my God, I'm so old. It's depressing and I actually get really

[C]

resentful of young people now,

[A]

so.

[B]

Funny really is a sign of getting old, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, I, I, I want to just jump back to that topic we were just talking about. And you know, I, I knew this a long time ago. I've seen some other photographers when I was really big into wedding photography. There's a few photographers that came, became really popular at the time of like blogs, before social media was really big. And they did it because they were just sharing themselves. They put their personality into their work as well. It wasn't just that they had really good photography and sometimes, honestly it was like they had mediocre photography, Most people would agree, but they put their personality into it and they had a good personality and people connected with them as a person. And I think there's something to that with social media more than just the photography. Would you guys agree?

[C]

Yeah. And. Oh, sorry, Rob.

[B]

No, no, we were talking about this actually. Weren't we, actually?

[C]

And, and, and the thing about me is that I'm a bit of a ranter and I do have, you know, and a lot of reasons. Some people probably get annoyed with me, but I've always, because I've always been, I suppose, true to myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, what I found is that it doesn't really matter if you, as long as you are who you are. Like, people just can look past that. Do you know what I mean? And good things still happen because you are who you are and, and, and there's that buzzword authenticity and I kind of hate it because it's become this kind of thing. But it, there's not really another word that describes it as, as well, but that's exactly what it is. You're absolutely right. And the thing about it is if you're not authentic, then you're the same as everybody else. So there's so many people on social media, you're just going to disappear into this sea, so you might as well be yourself and then speaking to other people like you and they're really going to resonate. It's like niche marketing and there's a rule in marketing, like, we tend to think generalist is better, but no, actually niche is better. So it's far more powerful because when you do connect and then people go. They're going to go, okay, you're like me or. Exactly. Whereas general. You're kind of going to meld into the crowd, aren't you?

[B]

Yeah. And I think you do invest in the personality as well, don't you? I mean, if you look at YouTube, for example, the YouTube channels that do really well are people that are charismatic and are likable. And if you. If you have that, then that trumps a lot of, you know, a lot of technical flaws that you might have in the. In the content. And I. And I think that's, you know, it's the same on Instagram, you know, when you look doing reels and things, I think.

[C]

I think actually there are two ways of doing it, and now you could do it the other way. There are some people who are very good at the reels and then they get like a. Was it that Isaac speaks or something? How do you say his last name? And he's got like a million. So he's just doing that. I mean, I'm not sure that's a personality thing. I might be insulting him there, but. But he's just very good.

[D]

Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[C]

But you know what I mean, like, if you do do it well, you can still get a lot of following or you can just be yourself. Yeah, yeah. Or you can be so fat. But if you're going to do that other way, you have to be bloody good at it, like him, or you're just going to disappear.

[A]

And then I also kind of wonder if. If you are good at that generalist thing or just doing the trendy thing now and you do grow the following because it's what everybody's into in the moment. Are they into it because they're into you and connect with you, or is it just they're connecting to the content you're throwing out there and, you know, like, which matters there, which is more meaningful and connecting to you as a human being, sharing stuff and trying to connect with others. And that might be a different answer for different people, but for me, it's always fallen on the side of I'd rather have the smaller audience that's actually genuinely connected to what I'm sharing and who I am than the bigger audience.

[C]

100%. I mean, like, I think, like, he sells a lot of prints and things, so probably it is quite lucrative for him to have that. But Totally. We. Yeah. But I am, I'm definitely, if I, I definitely like my engagement with people because actually when you do get stuff and people comment, I feel like I've made friends all over the world and it's really, really nice because you're connecting with people and that's the bit I really love. And it's like people who get me and they're supportive and when you have down times and. And I find that much more fulfilling. If it wasn't like that, I don't think I could be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to touch what you were saying, Rob, you know, with like the having the really good personalities on YouTube, I think it sort of over time has really shown me my personality must be pretty blah because I've been doing it for eight years and I barely have a following on YouTube. So I'm like, I don't have that personality.

[B]

Check.

[D]

Mark, you're laughing too hard.

[B]

I was gonna say, I'm not sure what Ray wants me to say there.

[C]

To be honest. There is nothing to say.

[D]

I have to watch.

[C]

And I'll say, ray, I'll have a toss up between you and watching the wallpaper and I'll see which.

[A]

No, there's nothing to say. I'm just. It's a, it's a self observation of like, well, I guess I don't have the personality for YouTube, but that's okay. I'll just stick to the slow grow

[C]

thing if it makes you feel better. I discovered when I did the Nikon, because I did the Nikon Z8 campaign, it was really funny, but I thought I'd be good on camera. Well, it turns out I really suck.

[D]

When you put me on in front of a camera, I turn into this zombie. And I think at the end of one of the things, I actually go, voila. And like I never saved while I was like, where the hell did that come from?

[C]

And then actually, okay, this is. This gets worse, right? Earlier in the year, like last year, they came, Nikon came back and they said they wanted me to do another campaign. And I said, but this time, I'm not kidding you. They said, georgina doesn't have to speak to the camera.

[B]

Or was it Georgina just doesn't have

[D]

to speak, they just want the audio. And so I wondered when they said that, right? And then I went and I went to Tokyo and I caught up with

[C]

the marketing guy who was the one with me when I did the Z.

[D]

And I said, I noticed that he goes, yes. And I said, I'm not very good on camera. And he Goes, no, you're not.

[A]

Appreciate the honesty. Appreciate the honesty.

[C]

But it gets back to being authentic. So even though I was at it, right, they still came back.

[D]

They just tailored the campaign so that I didn't have to speak on camera.

[B]

Playing to your strengths.

[A]

There you go. Yeah, well, you know what I mean. Also, it is like kind of, you know, you mentioned some earlier on Georgina that you were, you know, you started putting some personal stuff in your social media feed and stuff like that. And then the initial fear is like, oh, I might lose some people, but isn't that just totally okay? You know, like, wouldn't we rather have the people that want to see our true selves and follow us versus just the bigger following count and they're only following just for this, this quote unquote curated, perfect social media feed in a way.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think we all get to a point, don't we, where we, we just don't. We're less bothered about what people think about what we're posting and growing an audience. We, we're more bothered about what speaks to us and sharing that content rather than trying to please everybody with content they think, you know, we think they want to see. Yeah. And from my own feed, that's why I haven't got any followers. I just put up the stuff that, you know, and if I like it, I'll share it. If, if I've got something to share and if I've got nothing to share, I won't share anything. And it's. And that, and that's all I do with it now. And I think as you get, as you get older and you get more experience with, with social media, I just, just think it, I just want to, to use it in that way. I'm not so bothered about marketing myself for X, Y or Z reasons. It's. It's just more about what I, what, you know, the work that I've produced that I want to share with people.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, I think I, I still, I mean, I have to confess here, I have for a long time still thought I have to have you do every now and then you do fall into that trap. And I kind of realized it a year, about a year ago. I mean, when I started caring for mum and dad and I'd start, I just, one day I just went stuff it. I'm just gonna, yeah. Be myself and take something like that

[A]

sometimes to kind of like snap you out of it.

[B]

Right?

[D]

Yeah, it does.

[A]

And it was a divorce.

[C]

Oh, wow. Yeah, that'll do it too.

[D]

And There's a few life events. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[A]

But it. Sometimes it. Does these big life events just make you realize, like, yeah, this really isn't that important.

[C]

Oh, you know what? When my dad died, I just thought. And then I posted his woodturning photos, and I hadn't done that before he died, and it was overwhelming.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, the. How many people said they loved it,

[D]

and then I just think, why didn't I do that when he was alive?

[C]

Because he would have been so proud.

[D]

And I'm kicking myself.

[C]

It's like I kind of almost hate myself for that. But I. When I did do this post where I said, you know what? I'm just think stuff. And then I'd start writing about all this personal stuff. And so many people were like, yes. And I actually had people emailing me and they said they loved that I was being authentic and they. They just. They loved it. That's actually what people want and they're looking for connections.

[B]

And I think that's fair. I think that's very different, actually, to a lot of the way a lot of people approach it, because, you know, there is a lot of superficial stuff out there.

[C]

And if you show chat GPT.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, if you're writing a caption that's not with Jeopardy. Is really obvious now.

[D]

Like, if you're writing a real caption, it's like, oh, man, that's a real person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not a robot.

[D]

I know.

[A]

Yeah, it is. It is nice to share that personal side. And I think it's a great feeling to just not worry about everything being so perfect with what you share and just putting it out there.

[D]

You know what?

[C]

You know, it honestly doesn't matter what I've realized. And also, I did read this thing once that said people don't like perfect think people. Because what happens is if you're too perfect, like, it makes other people feel bad.

[B]

Oh, now I understand why I haven't got any followers.

[D]

That's right.

[C]

So when you say that you're not. Well, but we want people who say that they're not perfect because then we go, oh, my God, they're just like me. And they. You. You feel not. You feel more affectionate or you feel like you like them more when they're really imperfect. Yeah.

[A]

But I'll say for myself, there's totally a balance within that. Right. Because then you can have it go too far the other side, where it's just everybody's sharing, like, you know, it almost feels fake about how, you know, Bad. They have it or whatever. This isn't working. And you know, one of the posts

[C]

that

[A]

is like, you know, oh, I, I was going to share. How's it go?

[C]

It's like, oh, no, that one, that one annoys me. I know what you're going to say

[A]

was going to go viral, but it didn't. And it's just like, like, that's not being real. Like you're just, you're, you're begging the attention there.

[C]

The first person I did it was quite. Sorry.

[A]

That's okay.

[C]

No, I talk a lot, Ray. And I do talk.

[B]

She, she talks a lot.

[C]

I'm a little bit.

[A]

That's all I've been doing all day.

[B]

Ray, you have, you haven't had a. Staying with you for a week and a half.

[C]

No, no, no. You can't even compete, mate.

[D]

Just give up right there.

[A]

I surrender, I surrender.

[C]

No, what are we talking about? That's the other thing.

[A]

I've got posts that are being like overboard with, you know, being not, not really true to the problems that you're having. You're just kind of being over the top.

[B]

No.

[C]

And then. That's right. I think the first person who did that post was probably quite clever. But then like 500 people did it and then it's just like, okay, yeah, come on. That's not. They're just doing it because they think it's popular rather than they're doing it because, you know. But I will say that it, you can go too far the other way because I did it once with Facebook and I thought, oh, and I posted a whole lot of photos, as I do. I only posted something every few months. And then of my early photos that were really, really bad. Right. And then I as a thing. And then I forgot that I'd done it. And then I just didn't post anything else for about six months.

[D]

And then I sat there and I thought, holy, people are going to my page. And then someone said, and I was telling someone, they said, yeah, that's what they thought. They came up and they thought, gosh, Georgina's really gone down.

[B]

Award winning photographer and look at her

[D]

work for like six months. It's like you came to me and it was like this really awful.

[A]

Oh, that's so funny. That's so funny. I know. All right, well, I'd like to switch, switch gears here and get away from the social media thing. I feel like we all talk about that plenty of. What have you guys been doing? I heard just before we started recording, you guys were out Doing some photography this morning. What were you up to?

[C]

Well, you know what? We're trying to get a decent photo of her mute swan that's better than

[D]

Andy Parkinson, but it's really, really hard.

[A]

Good luck.

[B]

I think you just give up now.

[C]

I tell you, you can dream. I did meet him. I did meet him last week and like I said to him, I said. I said that we've been trying to do that. I said, the problem is he's got all the best shots. It's like, you might as well just give up now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

How are you gonna do it? You can't do it.

[A]

He did this series once on Canada geese. I'm pretty sure it was him. Oh. And had amazing light and it was just like over the top. And I just remember thinking, like, wow, like, this is an amazing photographer that just did incredible stuff with Canada geese.

[C]

Oh. You know. And you want to know the other thing about him is he is a really nice hugger.

[A]

He gives good thanks.

[C]

Okay. Yeah, I've got him all sussed out now.

[B]

I can't say I've ever hugged him, to be honest.

[C]

He would like it, though.

[B]

I don't think he would. Not from me.

[D]

I tell you what, David. David Tipling gave me a hug and then Rob said he was worried because

[C]

he was rocking me around like a rag doll or something.

[D]

Danger of my life.

[B]

If you spend enough time with Georgina and you introduce her to people that you've known for a. You see different sides to those people that you've never seen before. Yeah, it's incredible. It's so funny.

[A]

You know, I totally get that, Rob. My fiance, Emily is the same way. Right. She also, I will say, if you ever get to meet her, Georgina, an amazing hugger. She gets compliments on her hugs all the time.

[C]

Oh, wow. See, I'm a big hugger. And then I think we need to be careful. Some people don't like hugs. But anyway.

[A]

Yep, we have some funny stories where she's done that and made people uncomfortable, which was really, really funny. Yeah, I did that at the awards and then.

[C]

Oh, no, no, don't. No, no, it wasn't going to go there. No.

[D]

Certain things we can't tell you. Right.

[A]

All right, all right.

[B]

Off air we could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Gotcha. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, trying to photograph the swans. What else was happening? Was it just mainly that was the target.

[C]

Well, you see what I discovered, we went to. I see last year I came here and I. And I We came here and I went to this lake and there was just swans and mallards and that was fine. You know, I'm Australia. And then this year. And this year.

[D]

Yeah, that's great.

[C]

Yeah. And then we went to Sneddisham where they have the, like, flocks of, like, thousands and thousands of red knots swirling. And then suddenly I said, suddenly I'm very dissatisfied with new spots.

[D]

And I said to Rob, I'm beginning to think you live in a really bad part of England. And I should have been going to Norfolk, but it.

[B]

Norfolk was.

[A]

He was taking you all the bum spots.

[D]

I know,

[A]

right?

[B]

It's like this, okay? If you. If you do that to start with, and then you got really spectacular, then.

[C]

Yeah. The problem is we came back here and now there's nothing except.

[A]

Well, listen, I've heard these stories of, like, really good photographers, can make magic happen anywhere.

[C]

Well, I tell you what, Rob did get an image this morning and I said to him, that's the best photo I think he's ever taken.

[B]

Yeah. Honestly. And. Yeah. And she's not.

[C]

I call him a bastard when he gets a really good shot. And that one, I couldn't even say that. I was like, oh, my God. That was then.

[B]

We do that to each other all the time, though, don't we? We're quite. We're quite horrible to each other, aren't we?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

We're able to hang out with. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Well, we call ourselves dumb and dumber, actually.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

And I said to Rob, I broke it the news to him today that he's actually dumber because we've never discussed who's dumb and dumber.

[B]

I said, I just always assumed that was going to be the. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Rob, how do you feel about this photo that she said is one of your best ever?

[B]

Honestly, haven't had a really good look at it yet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

When I saw it. When I saw it on the back of the camera, you know, you just. You just think, oh, oh, oh, wow. That's. That's different. Yeah, I like that. You know when you get that feeling.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And honestly, it was from one of those. I mean, the light. I mean, I know I complained about Jesus.

[C]

He goes on and on about the light. I'm like, oh, my.

[B]

But you must admit the light was crappy, wasn't it?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

But this perfect light for what we were doing.

[B]

Yeah, it was. Yeah. So anyway, what were you doing with that light?

[D]

High key.

[C]

High key.

[A]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[C]

One flat lie and then he's whinging about it, he's going, well, what if we had. Oh, my God.

[B]

So anyway, we were experimenting with a combination of high key and then shooting through foliage and with a bit of slow shutter as well. Oh, there we go. Honestly? Yeah, honestly. I looked at it, I just thought, you just know when you've got one.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you think, oh, that's. That's different.

[C]

I tell you what, looked good too, with the mal. That mallard. The color on the male mallard is so beautiful. And when you have it with the autumn color of the leaves and you have it really, really high key, he just stands out. It's so pretty. It's so beautiful.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's such a simple shot.

[B]

Yeah. So we were messing around with things like that. But, you know, not all experiments work, do they?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Like Norfolk. The first night we went to Norfolk. This is hilarious.

[C]

This is dumb and dumb.

[B]

So I've never. I've never been to Snettersham before and I wanted to see it. So what happens is it's an area of Norfolk called the Wash. So it's a great big estuary, basically, with just miles and miles of mud flats. And at certain times of the year, you get these spring tides which cover the whole mud flat, and the birds come off the flats and they. They fly to a gravel pit behind.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So only happens a few times a year. I'd never been there, never seen it, no people that have. And it's something that has been on my bucket list for a long time. And when Georgina said she was coming to London and I said, well, you've got to come and stay again. And I thought, oh, if you're going to come for a little bit longer this year, let you know, let's. Let's go away and do something rather than just stick around here all the time. There's only so much you can do with those. Yeah. And I said, let's take that. And I thought, oh, I wonder that could sort of. The timing might be all right. So I looked it up and it was bang on. It was just nice bang. She's. She's sat there going, come on, you're being boring now. Yeah. She's making this gesture with this. You can, you can stop that.

[A]

I mean, anyway, you know, you got to build the story.

[B]

Exactly. I'm building. I'm setting the building the story. Exactly. Come on. So anyway, it's cut a long story short. It just so happened the timing was perfect.

[A]

So, yeah.

[B]

So I said, right, let's go. Let's go to Norfolk. For a few days and it's still babbling. So anyway, having never been there before, I said, let's go and check it out the night before. That's kind of the smart thing to do. So we walked out onto the beach and then. And checked out all the hides around the gravel pit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it was starting to get dark. And I said to you didn't. I said, oh, I tell you what, nobody's done. They have. They haven't. Photo. I've never seen photographs, photographs of these birds. Because the high tide was coming in about what, 8 o'? Clock? Half 7? 8 o'. Clock. So it's going to be dark, right?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I said, well, if you get some moonlight, maybe we could shoot them in the moonlight. I've never seen those pictures before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Slow shutter. Wouldn't it be great?

[C]

Wouldn't it be.

[B]

This is. This is dumb and dumber.

[D]

Dumber. We're sitting there, she's saying, yeah, yeah,

[B]

that's a really good idea.

[D]

So we're sitting there, it's getting darker and darker and then we're like, oh, you know, we can't actually see anything actually.

[B]

But you know, photography, you need some light.

[D]

Who knew, who knew this was a really dumb idea? Because you can't.

[A]

It wasn't a full moon, I guess.

[B]

No, I think it was. But we had cloud cover. That was the problem.

[A]

Yeah, that'll put a dent in it.

[B]

So the funniest thing is we then go to breakfast with David Tip.

[C]

We're going like, how dumb are we? We were thinking that who knew you needed light, right?

[B]

So we were telling him this story and he turns around and said, yeah, I tried that as well.

[A]

I failed that as well. Nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, gosh, I don't know.

[C]

You have these ideas in your head, but you're not really thinking it through properly.

[B]

I think that was dumb. Dumber and dumber still, wasn't it?

[A]

But sometimes those scouting missions like that can turn into something else, though. I've totally had that where I've had one idea set in my head. I go out to try and achieve it, realize, well, this isn't happening at all. But then you can pivot and go to something else. As long as you have some light, of course.

[B]

Oh, Ray, we, we, when we walked out there, the, the mud flats themselves, they had these lovely channels and little pockets and.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And the sun was going. Was setting opposite us, so we, you know, it was backlit and it was just these amazing shapes and shadows. It was. It was monochrome almost. We didn't have to. You didn't have to take the color out the photograph, you know. You know those times when.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

The angle of the sun and it. And it's reflecting off the.

[C]

You could get an amazing shot there, couldn't you? Because you have these beautiful shaped pools. But the problem was where you had the perfect shaped pools, there were never any birds. It's like half a million birds.

[B]

You can never put them in the right spot.

[C]

I was like, okay, let's just get a taxi. We're just gonna go and get a taxidermy duck and then just stick it in one of the ponds.

[D]

We'll go to the local museum.

[B]

Well, good luck with that one, because I'll watch you sink in the mud as you're trying to do it.

[A]

Yeah, you'll talk about that.

[B]

It would end in. That would be.

[A]

That would be a good reel on Instagram of you sinking into the mud. You know.

[C]

You know when we were. When we were out there, you went, oh, you're not gonna believe this. So we were out there and there's about 800 people, wasn't there?

[B]

Oh, the second day, there was nine. Over 900 people.

[C]

I know. And we went out there, and of all these people, this woman comes up. She goes, you wouldn't be Australian, would you? I mean, because I was so. Even though I spoke very softly,

[D]

somehow she caught on.

[C]

She managed to. She managed to hear me. And then we were chatting away, we were getting on really well. And then. And then I said, well, what's your name? And she said, georgina.

[B]

No, I mean, you couldn't script it

[D]

right out of all those people.

[C]

And you never meet a Georgina. And there's a. And we were like, no way.

[B]

So I was double Georgina.

[C]

And she got right into the act because I always, like, you know, like, abusing sounds a bit harsh, doesn't it? But I'm. Always.

[B]

Sounds a bit creepy.

[C]

Yeah, well, yeah, it does, actually. I'm taking the mickey out of Rob. And she just got right in on the act. And poor Rob.

[D]

We were just. Rob bashing.

[B]

Were getting.

[A]

You were getting it in stereo. How convenient.

[C]

She just fitted right in and it was like, this is perfect. We're like the ultimate trio.

[B]

But we did have a lot of fun.

[C]

We did have a lot.

[A]

I was gonna say, did you guys get to see the Big Flocks and everything like that?

[C]

Oh, we did. And we actually got her doing Slow Shadow. She hadn't done it. And now she sent us a photo and it was better than ours, so we hate it now. Don't we? Yeah. But it was. What was really nice, though, is you show that to someone and then she really loved it and she said she's going out to get a different lens now and she's like, like totally addicted. Oh, it's fabulous.

[B]

It's fantastic when you do things like that. But honestly, Ray, the. When that first flock took off from that, because they, you know, they come over in thousands. Yeah. So, you know, you're waiting for it. You're waiting for it, you're waiting for it. And then you hear the noise and then they come over and the hairs stand up on the back of your neck and you know when you get that feeling of, I'm in this spot at this particular moment, the light was incredible. You couldn't have scripted it. The sun, we had. We had low. Miss.

[C]

Apparently they're not used to the sun in the uk.

[D]

Yeah, they all get.

[C]

Every single person there is like, oh, my God, the weather's so good. We can see the sun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You had. You had this perfect moment, these perfect conditions, and you're thinking, oh, holy crap, if I don't get something good. You know, you've got all this pressure on yourself now.

[C]

We've been talking about that and Ray, do you get that right where it. It's so good. You go into this complete panic mode because you're like, the pressure is on. And you keep thinking, if I don't get a good shot, there's something wrong with me. And I tell you what happened to me.

[D]

My.

[C]

I couldn't focus, and then I realized my lens is in manual. Somehow it's got into manual.

[D]

And then I had a camera.

[C]

And then I had the camera somehow

[D]

got into the bracketing and I couldn't turn the bracketing off. And it was like this living nightmare. This never happens, but just when you want it down, it's like, oh, my

[A]

God, everything going wrong.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, we definitely panicked because it was. Well, I. I said it. I said it before it happened because you can see the light coming. You can. You can feel this moment building before

[C]

you're going, this is going to be so good. He was actually stressing. He's going, I. I just know I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna live up to it, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And that. And that's you. Because you do put pressure on yourself, you know, because you don't want to screw it up, because it's not like you can go back tomorrow. Although we did, but the light was completely different.

[C]

But you're also Thinking it's so good there's something wrong with you if you are able to get a decent shot. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then it's almost like, I don't

[A]

know about you guys, but flock shooting is. I just always like. It's probably the biggest question I get from mentorship students.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

You know, how do I improve? Like when I work with multiple birds, I'm like, I don't know. Good luck.

[D]

Do you get that question?

[C]

You love that question. No, no. How do they get them all in focus?

[A]

I love that question.

[C]

Here's the thing, because actually there's too many. Often what happens is there's not enough to have this like beautiful pattern that's completely seamless and that yet you don't have enough subject separation to get a decent. It's actually a nightmare.

[A]

It's challenging.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very challenging.

[A]

And then you have light like that where the conditions are great and it's just like, how do I turn this into something good? I could totally put myself in your guys shoes on that scenario.

[C]

Yeah, you do. You kind of like. And you put. You're kind of thinking you should be able to get a good shot, but you don't really know how to do it because you're taking shots. And I don't know what is a panic? There's definitely like a panic.

[D]

It's an overwhelm.

[C]

It's like having too many good subjects and you freak out. I do that with my mudskippers. I freak out because there's like one having a fight over here and then there's another one flipping over there and there's a crab attacking another one over there. And then you just like.

[B]

I mean, if you've got a single subject, it's a lot easier, isn't it? I mean, it's just one thing when you've got focusing on it, thousands of birds like that, you're just thinking, how can I get across in a photograph? Just how amazing this experience. And yeah, that's different.

[A]

Yeah, you lose audio, you lose sense of scale. You don't lose any of that feeling of being there that's like so impressive. And then you render it into a flat, motionless 2D photograph. And it. Yeah, yeah, it just.

[B]

And I think that's why, you know, you feel when you look at them, you haven't done it justice because you can't bring those other elements into it. I mean, honestly, hairs were standing up on the back of my neck. I mean, I almost cried. It was so good.

[A]

Do either of you Think about trying video in those moments.

[C]

Oh, I did.

[B]

Georgina did. Yeah.

[C]

Because I actually had a 50 filmmaker.

[D]

No one thought about it.

[A]

Oh, that was so good.

[B]

When did you get back on the plane?

[C]

You gotta be so happy to send me back. You know, when I came, right, it was so embarrassing. I thought, I'm gonna embarrass Rob because he's picking me up there. But. So I wore my reindeer Christmas jumper. It's got a reindeer with a sparkly nose. But it ended up backfiring, right. Because I kept setting off the security thing.

[A]

Oh, really?

[D]

And then they would. And when they showed me the thing, it was. It was my reindeer's nose that was coming up on their little machine as being metallic. So they're going. And I said, I think it's the sequins on his nose.

[A]

That's so good. That's such a good joke. Backfiring.

[B]

She's. She's not joking.

[A]

No, that's.

[B]

And the joggers were good as well. The matching joggers.

[C]

I had tracksuit pants on as well. So I was. And then I only. Okay, this is good. This is the disaster that is Georgina. I got them and I. I'd washed them the night before. Well, it turns out that I'd washed them with dark clothes, so there were all these dark stains all over them. But I didn't have anything else. So I. I turned up ride, tracksuit pets and this.

[D]

Right. Deer jump.

[A]

Nice. That's. That's an impression right there. It would have been better if that was your first impression, Rob, instead of the second time.

[B]

I might have hid Ray.

[C]

I reckon by then he'd already knew what I was like. And he was just like, oh, yeah, how you going? It was so underwhelmed. It was not.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I wasn't phased.

[C]

It was disappointing, actually. It was disappointing.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Well, see, last year when this happened, because I picked her up because the flight gets in.

[C]

Rob had a brown car. That's what happened. He had the worst colored car I've ever said.

[D]

And he kept saying to me, I got a really good deal on this car.

[C]

And I kept saying, I believe.

[D]

I believe you.

[B]

It was bronze.

[D]

No, it was like a diarrhea brown.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And you know what? He sold it.

[C]

As soon as I left, he sold it.

[B]

I couldn't take the ribbing, Ray, to be honest.

[A]

It was just non. Stop. Huh. You had to drive around the Shipmobile.

[B]

Oh, so. So anyway, my wife's so dry sometimes and we're driving along because it is A distinctive. It was a distinctive color, let's put it that way. There weren't many around. And we're driving along one day and then the same model as my, in the same color passed us going the other way. And she turns around to me and she said, oh, look at that, they made two. She is a genius. Yeah. It's so funny.

[A]

So good.

[B]

So anyway, the first time I picked her up because the flight comes in at 5am into Heathrow from Perth.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And of course, it's an hour away from my house, so I've got to get up at like three in the morning to go and pick her up. So. But then I'm thinking, oh, she's been on the plane for like 17 hours. She's going to be knackered.

[A]

Blah, blah, blah.

[B]

Oh, no. She gets off the plane, bright and breezy, ready to go. You must be really tired. Oh, no, I slept for 12 hours, whatever it was. I said, oh, good for you.

[C]

I've had a really good sleeper on the plane.

[A]

Are you.

[C]

I'm legendary. I'm legendary.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

I've done that. My husband used to get really pissed off because, like, he can't sleep. And then I. I once slept from 12 hours from, like, was it New Zealand to Chile or something?

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And I was like, oh, was I being asleep? And he was just really annoyed because he's been awake the whole time and there I am snoring. I actually bought tape because I was worried. I snort. I woke myself up once. Snorting.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I thought, oh, my God, I bought tape. I put tape on my mouth. Yeah.

[A]

Was that. Oh, okay. I didn't know if that was for when you were awake.

[C]

I know. I thought, my husband's every dream has just come true. That I've got mouth tape.

[B]

When we went to. When we went to Norfolk, we pulled up in the car park because you need to get there early because. And so it's dark. Okay. So it's dark. We put up in the car park and you know, you're not a shrinking.

[C]

No, I was a bit loud. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we started talking about. Because you. You always wanted to write a novel.

[C]

Novel. I've always wanted to write a crime novel. So I was like, we're walking along and I go, I know. I said I could do one where the loud Australian gets murdered, like at one of these things, but. And which twitcher did it? Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And. And this woman behind us goes, that's not exactly an unrealistic prospect.

[D]

That's when I went, holy, I better be quiet.

[C]

I was suddenly scared. I was like, oh, my God.

[B]

It sort of set the scene for that.

[C]

It was hilarious when she said that other.

[A]

That is funny. Georgina, have you ever done hide photography?

[B]

Well,

[C]

This was a discussion, right? And if there's. There's a few people out there who were in the hide with us the second morning and let's just say they. Well, one of them said he heard a lot word. He said some interesting things in the height. And I thought, oh, my God, I don't even know what I said.

[B]

But

[C]

Rob said to me, he's going, you really do have to be quiet. And we had this thing where he's going to kick me, right? Because I get. I'm quiet and then I forget and then I get chatty and then it just goes up and up and up. But I think I was really good.

[B]

You think I was worse?

[C]

I think you were worse because there was this Reki. I can't never say her name properly. Recky. We met this lovely lady from Hungarian and she and Rob and her were chatting and chatting and I think they were louder than me. I was trying to be quiet. I was talking to Tim from Colchester.

[B]

Yeah, but you've never heard yourself, yourself, so how would you know?

[C]

Yeah, well, I just think I was. I think I was. I thought I was quite good. But you're right, it is a problem.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And I do. It is a problem for me because I can be. I do get carried away, don't I? And so I. I really. I probably do need someone there to remind me I am a problem. I am.

[B]

Well, we were. So we were the first people in the hide because we said we'd get there early. Yeah. Because David had said to us that the best hide is. Is there were three major hides on the pit. And he said, no, you want that. That particular hide is the best one. So he thought, we'll get there early. So we. We rock up at like 5 o' clock in the morning or something and sit down near a flask of coffee, you know, just sit there waiting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're chatting away and about 20 minutes later, another guy comes in and he. And he said. He said, well, I didn't know which hide to go in until I heard you two. And he said, I think I recognize your voice. He said, you do that podcast, don't you? And he said, oh, and you're Georgina, aren't you? So he's heard.

[C]

It's like yards away and this is the Thing you've got to be careful because people do. No, you don't. They. So you got to be careful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was the one. He wrote to me later and he said, I heard some very interesting.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Remember I was telling that. Oh, anyway, I can't. I'm not going to repeat that on. No, I can't do that. Like. Oh, this is public, isn't it? Yeah, No, I can't say that.

[B]

No, no, no, it's a family show.

[C]

It's a family show. That's right. But anyway, you get carried away. But David. David was funny, wasn't he, when he came in? Oh. Because Rob showed him this exercise video of me. Ray. I did a little with Rob's wife's, like, she had a personal trainer come and I thought, oh, well, I'm going to do some exercise. Rob has this video of me exercising and he shows David and David look on David's face was a bit shocked, you know, is that. Georgina doesn't, you know, And I said, oh, is it that bad? And he. And David just says, well, it's not good.

[A]

How the hell did you guys get any photography done with all the chatting you're doing?

[B]

Sometimes one de.

[C]

Well, actually, do you want to know what. That morning, they never came in, so they were supposed to, the birds, and they. They're actually. I wonder. They speculated that maybe all the people are scaring them.

[B]

That was. So we went. First day was a Friday, but the next day was a Saturday. So it's going to be busier on a Saturday for obvious reasons. And they had over nine. They said over 950 people. And they thought. They thought part of the reason the birds did wouldn't actually come in and roost on the gravel pit during the high tide. It was because of the number of people on the beach.

[C]

On the beach where the birds fly over there was, you know. Yeah. 900 people. So they may have come up and then they just go back.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So it's interesting, isn't it? So what are they going to do, you know?

[B]

Yeah, it's difficult, you know, you want people to enjoy it, but then you don't want, you know, the popularity to affect, you know, what's natural behavior.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's really difficult actually going.

[C]

Yeah, go for it. No, no.

[A]

All right. I was gonna say, Rob, I wanted to hear from you first and then I want to hear from you, Georgina, do you prefer shooting with other photographers or shooting by yourself?

[B]

Depends who the other photographer is.

[D]

I was gonna say, you really don't want to shoot with me, because if

[C]

I'm with someone, the birds. I've actually had people on workshops, and I go, it's really hard to see in Albert's live bird. And I saw one. Okay. And then I screamed, and then the bird took off and they all came over and I said, it's gone.

[D]

And they said to me, it's just

[C]

like, I'm really not a good person to take.

[B]

I mean. Okay, to answer your question in all seriousness, normally I shoot on my own.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I enjoy. I enjoy. I enjoy that. But the best times are when you're with. With good company, because those are the most memorable ones, you know, and actually, I think it makes you feel a lot more relaxed sometimes, you know, because you're just laughing and joking around, depending on who you know, who you with, but. And you're also pushing each other and giving each other ideas. And I think. Yeah, there's a lot.

[C]

I think you've got to be with someone who's kind of on your same level and who wants to do the same kind of things. Absolutely.

[A]

It's got to be a good.

[C]

It does. Whereas, like, sometimes if I go out and I'm just, like, with friends, and we basically just chatting, especially women, we just chat and chat and chat, and we don't actually end up photographing them. No. And we end up saying, let's just go to coffee shop. Okay.

[B]

So what happens is you talk and they listen.

[C]

No, they don't. They talk to women. We all talk anyway. Rob. With Rob, because we. We like similar kind of things, and then we can. And he likes to experiment, and I like to experiment. So it's a good thing. Yeah. So we do so actually is really good because we're forcing each other to do better. And if one gets a better shot, you get really annoyed, and then you go out and then you try and do better. We're not happy. But I think you're right. I think it depends who it is. And yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I have advantages to both sides. You know, I really do love those sort of moments alone in nature where you really get to connect. And I've had some of my most amazing moments that way where it's just you and the wildlife and nature and solitude and you feel small in the world, you know, and just so connected to nature. But then I also have had incredible moments shared with others, both with, you know, groups of small groups and just with other individuals. Especially, you know, I get to shoot with Emily. So we have just amazing shared experiences. All the time. Time. So there's definitely advantages to both. So I was just curious, you know, which way you guys lean.

[C]

I, I actually am probably most of the time on my own, and you're right. And sometimes when I'm with other people, I can't concentrate. I can't absolutely do what I do naturally because I don't want to hold people up or I'm worried that, you know, they want to move on or something. And it kind of doesn't. I, I. Whereas if I'm on my own, I could spend like two hours just in one spot. Whereas you don't really do that with other people. You feel like you have to, you know, adjust and, and things like that.

[B]

So, yeah, it's not like that with me. You just, you just tell me what to do.

[C]

Well, I do, but it was really funny. No. Okay. This is what happened last year, because he's like, he'd lost his mojo and, and he just kept complaining. Ray. He's like, oh, the light's gone. And then he's like, oh, I just want. I might go up there. But we actually had good action with the swans. And I said, for Christ's sake, shut up, sit down and just focus on.

[A]

That's that shutter.

[D]

Because he was kicking.

[C]

Because you get that people just think that it's always. The grass is always going to green and move on. I said, we've actually got action here. We've got it right here. The light, if it's not certain kind of light. Let's just work with whatever we have and try to be creative. But this is what you do. And. Yeah, sorry, I sound horrible now, don't I?

[B]

And if Georgina tells you to do something, you do it.

[A]

Well, no, it's so interesting because I've totally been able to push through those types of moments, and I've totally gotten caught up in them, just depending on my mood. Sometimes I'm in that mood where it's just, it's not working out and I just don't have the energy or desire to push through it and try and figure something out because I either had a certain vision or I'm just not, I'm just not feeling it. And then I just kind of mope away from the outing and feel unfulfilled and it wasn't good. And then other times, it's exactly what you said, Georgine. It's like, you know what? Well, this is what I have right now, even though it's not perfect, and I'll push myself and then maybe come up with something different or more creative than I originally had planned. And then it feels really good. It just kind of depends on how I'm feeling at the time, you know, And I guess sometimes it depends on who you have around you, pushing you.

[C]

Well, yeah, And I think that if you want to be creative, it's good to have another creative photographer and who has other ideas, because then they'll have some idea that you don't. And then you. Actually, this is why I think it's really important you never, ever, ever assume you know everything, because that's your first. You're never going to grow if you think you know, you know everything. So you always. Every single person, even like, like early beginner photographers, they can even have a perspective or something that you don't know. So you need to always keep your mind open that there are other ways of doing things. I'm constantly being told things by people that I didn't know or I never thought of, and I thought, oh, that's a really good idea. And it's a learning process. It. It's really nice. But actually, some of my best photos have come when I've had not much to work with and not a great subject. So you're actually forced to think outside the box. Or maybe you can't use your usual lens and you have to use another lens, and then suddenly you come up with this image that you would never have done otherwise. So I quite like the challenge.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Totally agree with that. I mean, and if you're with somebody who's got not. You were talking about, you know, lack of energy at times, you know, when you're not feeling it, when you're. When you're with somebody who's on your way ADHD on your wavelength, and. And yeah, then it. It.

[A]

We know what you're.

[B]

Yeah, you feed off that energy, don't you?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It gives you more inspiration to continue rather than you could go back to the car and just go home. So, yeah, I think that that's, you know, when you're shooting with other people, I think the best times are when. When they're on your wavelength, you know,

[A]

and you just get. And then you. You definitely keep feeding off the energy. Everybody bumps each other up and. Yeah, it's like, you know, even in the context of what you guys are sharing about and playing around, even in the context of, you know, like, ribbing each other and always, like, busting each other's chops, you can still grow within that. Right. And it is a friendly, fun way of Pushing each other to. To try something different and to see things in a unique way.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, if you take a terrible photo, it's really good to show it to someone else and they go, yeah, it's like, well, Rob does that too. It's really irritating. But he goes, yeah, it's okay, you're getting there. But it's actually good to get honest feedback because if you had someone who's just going to go, oh, that's great, you're not going to go and try harder. And then. And then conversely, if they take a really good shot, you go, oh, I never thought about that. And then you go and you do it.

[B]

So I got it. But go ahead, Ralph, go on. Now, I got a point. In case was I got a shot on the. On those mud flats we were talking about earlier with this amazing light with a single bird. It was a ring plover or something. It was just. It was just shaking its feathers, you know, on a. On a corner of a little inlet. You know, they make these nice curves and whatever. And I turned it. I mean, it was pretty monochrome anyway, but I. But I turned it black and white and did some dodging and burning and cropped it, cropped it with it, you know, in a cinematic crop, which made it look really good. And I thought, oh, you know, because we hate Josh, right? Because he's so good.

[C]

Bloody Josh. He's done another this morning and I was like, that bastard.

[B]

So we're trying to out.

[D]

Really pissed off with Josh.

[A]

Trying to out.

[B]

Josh.

[A]

Josh.

[B]

So we're out. We're trying to out. Yeah, we're trying to out. Josh. Josh. Right. So. So I see this. This thing on the. On there, you know, going through the shots in light rail and I think, oh, no. So anyway, I messed around with it, cropped it in a cinematic way for. Oh, this is. This is. I really like. This is really good. It's really strong. Sent it to Georgina, who was in London at the time, and normally if she said if she likes something, she'll come back quite quickly and go, yeah, no, I love it. Yeah. It was like.

[A]

I'm thinking crickets really.

[C]

And then he asked me in the car and I said, oh, no, that's bad. No.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you know, on a workshop, it's funny, I got to the end of a workshop and this woman said, said her and her friend of. You know how I say spray and pray? They said, they've come up, they've decided I have another one that's crap and crop. Because I go That's a crap photo. Crop it.

[D]

And then the other one I'll go crop it. Crap crop.

[A]

It's so good. Well, I have. I get called out on these workshops all the time, especially when Emily's around. She is usually just hanging out and attending. She's not, you know, teaching or anything like that. And it happened really obviously on our last workshop in Newfoundland. This photographer I was working with, he's working this set and he gets this photo and he takes the shot and he's really, really happy with it. And it's. It's. He's starting to experiment with wider angle stuff. And he shows me and I'm like, He's so excited. I'm like, that's great. And then I'm like, but. There's always a but. But next time you should try this. And Emily comes, she's like, would you stop like crapping on his shot? He was so excited. I'm like, listen, he's here to learn, you know, and there is sort of that. That balance of, you know, I don't want to, you know, bring the mood down. I do want to keep people excited. But if you're there and you can retry it, like, you gotta learn and so you gotta get that honest feedback.

[C]

They do have to get the honest feedback. And of course, I wouldn't say it if I thought someone was really sensitive and everything, but when we were doing reviews, I think, like, I remember I was doing it with Michael, who I do things, and Michael's like, oh, well,

[D]

you could crop it that way or

[C]

you could crop it this way, you know, because they were doing it and they had a square crop. I really hate square crops. And I'm like. And then they're like, what do you. What. What do you think? And I said, I hate it.

[D]

You're gonna crop it like this.

[C]

But it was like I knew that I knew the people and they appreciate it. Like it's just a different point of view because they need to know what I think. And I'm a judge, like sometimes of some things. And yes. And it's. And I. By the same thing, right? Okay. So I just got an award, right? And if you look at it, it's that. What is it? What is it called? The Mad Haterpillar. And what actually happened is Rob saw it it last year, I sent it off to Rob and my. And some. And a few other people and my sister and I had two versions, right? And one of them, because it was backlit, and one of them was a sun flare Coming in, you know, you get the light flare. And I was quite in love with the arty farty idea of it.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then one just had the black background and I sent it off and I said to them, which one do you prefer? And they all came back and because I kind of really liked the flare, but they all come back, said, not the flare. So I do it myself. Because we get subjective about our image, we cannot see something and often we're in love with something. And really, probably why I was sending it off is because deep down I knew in my heart that probably the other one, and that's the one that won.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So if I had put the one in with the flare, it wouldn't have got anywhere.

[B]

Probably what you're saying is your rewards all down to me.

[C]

Yeah, well, you and four other people. So don't get too carried away. But. But this comes back to the other thing is we all need feedback. Like, I need feedback too. Just because I take workshops doesn't mean that I know what I'm talking about. So I tend to be more objective with other people's images, whereas when it comes to my own, I've got no idea. No idea. I get.

[A]

Yeah, well, we get caught up in. We captured it, right? There was emotion, there was a feeling there. There's like all this other stuff that just doesn't get conveyed to somebody that wasn't there, there.

[C]

And I think that's why I say to people, you've got to be prepared to get feedback and don't put it on an Internet forum, because you're not. You're going to get all these things. I say what you do is send

[D]

it off to a group of people,

[C]

but don't tell them to tell you what's wrong with it. Just say, give them a few photos and don't send it to your mother because she's always going to say it's great. So you've got to send it to people and just say, just tell me which one you like best and which one you like least. Because then it's not confronting for them.

[D]

Them.

[C]

They can. They don't have to say. They don't have to pretend to like something. They just can just say it. And then what you'll do is you tend to get a consensus and then you say, and there might be a photo you really love, but if everyone's kind of putting it towards the bottom and I say, don't overthink it, like, I don't want you to say what you like it about, I just want your gut reaction.

[B]

Yeah. Because you get. You get very invested in your own work, don't you?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. It loses the objectivity.

[C]

And you can do it with processing and that too. You can send them to two processed versions or two crop versions and say, which one?

[A]

Totally.

[C]

You know.

[B]

Yeah. It's like a lot of the slow shutter stuff, isn't it? You might mess around with the white balance. You know, do I want this? Do I want this to. To. Does this look better with cool tones or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Do I. Do I want the warm tones on this?

[A]

You know, it always looks better with cool tones.

[B]

But when you say that, you say that, you say that it's not always true. I mean, I was working on an image last night and. And I started, and I was just, just moving the slide. You know what you do, you just get it in lightroom. You move in the slider across. And I'm going, what do I prefer? Because there's merits to both of, you know, to both ways of looking at it. And I said to my wife, I said, is this better cool or is it better warm? I'm not sure. And she's. No, no, warm, warm. Definitely warm. And actually, I think she's right.

[C]

Got a really good.

[B]

She's got a good eye. Yeah, she has.

[A]

So much of that is like, I think we. Especially with the post processing side of things, but it, of course, to shooting in the field, we have preferences and trends that we get into. You know, it's like, this is what's working for me right now. This worked well for this image. And then you kind of. You kind of get into, oh, this is how I edit my photos all the time, doing the same thing over and over again. And you forget to even experiment with the other stuff or it feels wrong because you're not used to doing it. And then you show it to somebody else that doesn't have that tendency. And they're just like, yeah, this way. It's just obvious

[C]

that's exactly what happened. And, you know, I was talking about the square crop and what happened years and years ago, I had to give images to this book. We were giving it. They were doing an aboriginal language book with the birds. So we were just giving a whole lot of ID pictures. And it had to be a square crop. So I did all these square crops. And then I got into habit of square cropping. You just change the way you see.

[D]

And then I was doing.

[C]

And it took this friend to go,

[D]

what the hell is going on with the square crop? And I just went, oh, my God.

[A]

God.

[D]

But you can.

[C]

And I say that even my processing. I've noticed I'm always boosting the whites and stuff, and it's very bright. And you get into this, you've got to be really careful, because before you know it, you start doing something without thinking, and you've got to, you know. And sometimes. Yeah, and. And you're probably going to more and more extremes, and it might be starting to look a bit garish or something, but you lose. Yeah, you. So you do have to re. I think you're right. I think you have to reset, set things every six months.

[B]

And that might not be the feel that you really want to go for. It's like there's nice soft tones that we had in the fog the last morning we're in Norfolk. It's like, you don't want to be boosting the contrast on those necessarily, because it's the whole soft feel of that foggy.

[C]

The fog is an interesting one, isn't it? Because you want it to be great, but it can actually be a huge problem as well, especially if you can't focus and. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, go. Going back to the joke I made earlier about it always being cool or warm, I feel like every time I edit a foggy photo, I always lean in that direction because that's usually when I experience fog in my areas. It's like dawn. It's cooler tones, and it just looks more blue. And so I always tend to lean that way, unless, of course, the sun is actually glowing through it. But it's like, maybe sometimes I should try the warm ver. And I don't even try it. I just know in my head, I'm like, oh, it's gotta be cool.

[B]

If you've got something like autumn tones in the foliage and you've got a bird like a goldfinch, for example, you don't. You know, you want to be leaning the other way. Oh, that's. That's the way I feel about it.

[C]

Yeah. But what if you didn't? Because everybody does that. But you know what, though? It's like Josh. You know, Josh has done these really amazing black and white, and he follows that other guy. I can't remember what he says his name was, but he does really amazing.

[D]

And.

[C]

And now that Josh is doing that, in my mind, all I can see is black and white. So looking at other photographers actually does open your mind up to new possibilities.

[B]

But then artists go through this phase. You know, we talk about so and so Having a, you know, a yellow phase or, you know, whatever. I'm sure we do. I mean, last time we spoke, Ray, it was all about slow shutter for me, wasn't it? To a degree. I'm, you know, I'm still having fun with. With that. You know, it's just.

[A]

Just.

[B]

But kind of introducing other elements to it as well.

[A]

Yes, but.

[B]

So I think we do go through these.

[C]

I'm in a foreground blur face. So what I'm doing is to shoot. Shooting, shooting through vegetation, like everything.

[A]

I just did that yesterday morning like crazy.

[C]

Do you know what? It's a. It's an area, Ray, where it's still relatively unsaturated. Like, not many people are doing it. And it's. Soon it's going to be. Everyone's got a cotton on that. It's actually really fabulous.

[B]

But, I mean, we just. We did some stuff with me. When nothing was in focus, not even the subject was in focus, but deliberately done.

[C]

Rob was pretending he meant it to be blurry. I'm not sure that he did. I think it was just out of focus.

[A]

I think she was too much vegetation. Yeah. Trust me, there's a subject in there.

[B]

Can you remind me why we're friends?

[D]

All I can say is you must be a masochist or something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so funny.

[C]

No, we tried being. We tried saying something nice to each other and then it felt really creepy.

[D]

No, no, that was.

[B]

We just looked at each other. Are you a bit creeped out?

[A]

Y. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. The compliment just gets like a record scratch and everything halts.

[B]

Exactly.

[D]

There was just silence, wasn't there?

[B]

It was like walking into a bar you'd never been in before, you know.

[D]

That's right.

[C]

Well, that creepy bar we went into.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it looked really nice from the outside and then you walk in and then all these old blokes just turn around and look at you. Oh, my God.

[B]

Are you still doing food?

[C]

No, no.

[A]

At 7pM yeah, that's right, yeah. So, Georgina, what's the main reason you came to London? Was it just to see Rob?

[C]

Not at all.

[D]

It wasn't. He was. It was just a way to stay.

[C]

No, sorry, I. I tell you what. Well, what happened. Well, I got into the wildlife photography year was which. And last year. Yeah. So I was in, highly commended. And this year, because I won a category, they fly you in. So I was like, wow. But my father died not long after I found out and you have to book the tickets early and I didn't really. I wasn't in the mood, you know, you want to go to Europe? I could have gone, saw my. But I didn't want to do anything. I was just really. I just wanted to stay with people I knew.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And I just wanted to, you know, have, you know, that's it. I wasn't in the adventurous thing or anything. So that's how I ended up here. And, yeah, it's kind of weird, isn't it? Because I was there a year ago and then I'm back a year later. This time I bought my Vegemite. I said, I'm moving in.

[D]

I bought my Vegemite, my Tim Tams. I put it in their cupboard. You don't know Tim Tams?

[A]

I don't know that one, though.

[D]

Oh, my God. Rob didn't know Tim. I'm like, how do you not know Tim Tams?

[C]

They're like the best biscuit in the world.

[B]

They're bloody nice, actually.

[C]

Even Silver Blair knows them, I think. Think Selma Blair. Anyway, so. Yeah, well, I went to the awards and I got to tell you, it is a pinch yourself moment because I got to meet. You get to meet all your heroes. Right. So I finally met Andy Parkinson. Yeah. And Ben.

[B]

You've had Andy on the podcast.

[A]

I've had Andy on the podcast. He was one of those people early on I was just like, reaching for the star and he said yes. And it. One of the most amazing conversations I've ever had. So grateful. He's just incredible, dude. Just so nice. Exactly. Yeah. Just energetic and all about it. It's incredible.

[C]

And I tell you who else he met was Auden Rickardson. And he's. He's had like 15 photos in those awards. Like, he's like a legend. And he's such a lovely guy. We call him the Viking. He's so tall, but he was so nice, and that's what's so nice. And you're meeting these guys and he was talking to me and this other young guy who was. His name was Jake. He had a. If you see the. The pictures, he had a snapping turtle, which is the cutest turtle you've ever seen this photo. But he was a young underwater guy. And you could see him looking at Auden, who's like this legend, and you could just see how he could. He was pinching himself. Do you know what I mean? And Auden's explaining and we. And we were both listening because, you know, he was talking about how, you know, you do those above, above, below shots. And if you have the dime run. You can't get enough light in because. Because it changes the depth of field below. Because what's in focus below won't be equivalent to what's above.

[A]

Correct.

[C]

You have to use a bigger F number. Right. So he. It's not enough light because he's in the Arctic and whatever. So he got a flat dome and he could go to flat piece of glass. So he could use, like. And so we're listening to him discussing the tea and you could see it was like one of those moments where we're both sitting there going, we're talking to a man, a guy. Guy who has so much knowledge and it just blows your mind. He's so good at what he does. And that's the thing that is so good about it, because how are you going to get into. I'm in Australia. I don't get to hang with any of those people. I don't even meet them. And the other one was Sandra Batoka.

[D]

I love her work.

[C]

I mean.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And who was the other? Marina Kano. Do you know her? She does that. Do you know what? She's the most beautiful person. She's so lovely and she's so humble. And then there was Ben Martin. I was like, oh, it might have been a bit. I might have been a bit much for Ben.

[D]

I think.

[C]

I think.

[D]

I think, actually. And then I said I was running

[C]

away, and his wife said something to. Because she. His wife quite liked me. She said something doing Hungarian. And he came back and she.

[D]

And he hugged me.

[C]

And he said his wife told him

[D]

he had to hug me.

[C]

Nice.

[A]

Oh, that's so funny.

[D]

Oh, that is so cute. Isn't it?

[B]

But you know what?

[C]

It's just. It's one of those things where I think it's. Especially if you from. I mean, you guys must get. You must see other people. But on the other hand, you're just with Americans. Right. It's the same with us. I'm only with Australians, so it's really nice to be somewhere where you get influences from all over the world.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

And you miss that. You miss that in Australia. I miss it.

[A]

You know, I think everybody misses that anywhere, wherever you are.

[C]

Yeah. But I think Europeans kind of get to hang out a bit more than we do. I mean, they go to that gdt and that would be epic, wouldn't it? You've got every.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that is true. You know, but as far as, like, outside of these competitions, there's still, you know, it's a. It's a big Enough area that you're not hanging out all the time and that sort of thing. So these things are just a great time to bring everybody together and.

[C]

Yeah, and that's actually what is the best part of it, in fact, is connecting with people. And there's some people you just really, really get along with, and it's really nice. Like, I know I was. There was. There's just one lady, and I was. I made a bit of a. When I did the speech, I was talking about this. This company, and then she came up to me and she goes, I know that she literally. She's in another country. And then she's like, I'm the chief of police here. And she said, and they've done the same thing where they are. And so it was really just amazing because she could relate to what I said. And. And so you're connecting. I was connecting with someone that, you know, and it's. It's incredible because we're going through the same things and we think the same way, so it's. It's. It's nice, you know. You know, it's kind of like really cliche, but it's like that global community and makes you feel less alone, I suppose.

[B]

Yeah, well, you're networking with similar people, aren't you? I mean.

[C]

Yeah, but I don't like the word networking because it's a. It's like just connecting, really. I mean, I'm not going out to network, but you just end up meeting people that you get along really well with.

[D]

Who?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it's genuinely liking people.

[C]

Oh. You know, like last year, Yuri. We met Yuri, and he's just the nicest guy. And his wife, his voice. Yana, I love you, Yana, if you're listening. Anyway, when she met me on the. On the first night, she goes, I

[D]

thought I was going to be the loudest person here. She goes, and then I met you. She's like, I'm so happy.

[A]

She's like, I'm good now.

[D]

I didn't know what. That's what I mean about connecting. It's like, oh, my God.

[C]

Anyway, sorry, I talk a lot. I'll shut up.

[A]

No, no, no, it's totally fine. That's. That's a wonderful thing. It's.

[B]

That's what the podcast's all about, actually. People talk.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it kind of. So it works out, you know. How come you don't have your own podcast?

[C]

Oh, I do. No. Well, no one wants to do one with me. Josh and Rob don't want me on

[A]

you you start it on your own. I just do it on my own.

[D]

I don't have anyone. Can you do it on your own? But who would I talk to?

[C]

I can't talk to myself.

[A]

Oh, you reach out.

[C]

I do actually talk to myself, Ray.

[B]

She talks to herself all the time. There you go. Now she's on her own. You could, you know, she. She might. She might sneak off and. And try and get a shot that I. I haven't seen. Right. Yeah, you can. You know where she is because. And she's got such a potty mout.

[A]

I feel like I would believe you

[B]

hear this bad language.

[C]

Right?

[B]

It's.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's

[A]

right. I would have guessed.

[C]

Yeah. No, I have a unfortunate turn of phrase for a bird photographer, which I really do need to improve.

[A]

Anyway, I used to have. I had a version of my podcast. I did a second podcast called Wildlife. This is Wildlife Photo Chat. And I did one called Wildlife Photo Chat Raw, where we just let the language fly. We just were half an addiction, you know, and it was so funny because there was totally people that like, tuned in to listen to just let us, like, hear us talk the way we want to talk. And I actually see that we're messaging and we're like, is that really necessary? I'm like, you don't have to listen.

[C]

Yeah, no, you know, I mean, it's. It's. You know what? I thought I would like to do just one where I just do like 10 minutes on a tub on a topic or something, but maybe that's boring because it's not my personality, is it? I just be.

[A]

You think you could keep it that tight?

[C]

No. No.

[D]

What?

[C]

Right. What are you saying, Ray?

[A]

Saying? I'm guessing 10 minutes.

[D]

Be very careful where you go from here.

[B]

Well, let's put it this way. Her. Her. She was supposed to keep her speech, her acceptance speech to 45 seconds. Didn't happen. Happened.

[C]

There were very few.

[A]

I think they didn't yank it off. So you're good.

[C]

No. Well, I was the second up, so I think. And then I started talking about my dad and I think that would be. They'll be too scary.

[A]

They're not going to cut you off on that.

[C]

No, they are not.

[B]

You know, but you used your time wisely.

[C]

Yeah. But they did say to the guy who ended up winning, right? They told him to cut it back to five seconds, his acceptance. But I said, oh, maybe they did that with his category win because they knew he was going to have another chance to say something.

[A]

Oh, gotcha. That could be, yeah.

[C]

Because that's pretty bad.

[B]

He didn't know that, did he?

[C]

No, he didn't.

[A]

Or maybe it was like some other people took up too much time and there wasn't enough left.

[C]

Do you have to mention that?

[A]

Oh, that's so funny. Well, I. Congratulations again. And it's wonderful that you got to go there and have that experience. It does seem like. Like one of the most amazing gatherings of wildlife photographers and certainly something I, you know, strive to be able to join one day in the future, that's for sure.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of luck involved when we. We were all talking about this because getting. I mean, getting through the first round, I always said, and I say to people when they enter competitions, you shouldn't enter to win, because really. And when you've been judged, you know that, don't you? There's a lot of compromise that goes on, too. So you. You should just aim to be a finalist, I think. And I mean, and. And with Wild Wildlife Photography, you should just aim to get into the next round because that says it's a good photo, but.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

And then if there's a lot of like, say 20 finalists or something, then you should aim for that, but never, ever expect to win because you're just going to be very, very disappointed.

[A]

Yeah, no, I would agree. Yeah. It is always a wonderful honor on contests of that level when you get to the next round, isn't it?

[C]

Oh, look, there are. But there's no doubt there are some. We call them no brainers. You know, there's some photos that are. Like that guy with the hoopoe. Do you remember when we saw that?

[B]

Oh, God.

[C]

Do you remember the guy with the Hooper who had the black and.

[B]

Yeah, it was a whole. It was. It was like half. It was a vertical shot, half of it was black.

[A]

Oh, black.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

We all just looked at it for

[C]

the bit and we were like, oh, my God.

[A]

No, it looks like a drawing, right? It looks like somebody, like, drew the thing. It's so cool. Yeah.

[C]

So perfect. It was just obvious.

[B]

It was symmetrically perfect. The lighting was just unbelievable. And you just think, well, you can't not have that win because it was just so good.

[C]

There are images like that where it's just.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, but, yeah, I love seeing

[A]

that kind of stuff. I love seeing those obvious ones where you just see it and you're like, how is that possible? Like, you can't even. You can't even wrap your head around how the moment lined up and the photographer saw to shoot it that way. And it's such a wonderful. To me, it's a wonderful feeling to.

[C]

Is it a wonderful feeling or do you get like, should I just give up now?

[A]

I get that.

[B]

It's.

[A]

I. I totally understand that. I feel like a lot of people respond that way. I sort of internally respond as. It's a wonderful thing knowing that, like, those possibilities are out there, you know, That's. That's kind of the way I see it.

[C]

Oh, you're a glass. You know, you're a glass half. What is it for I. Once, one day, you know what I said? You know, when you. I. It. As soon as I said it, I realized. Right. It's like, until I said out loud, I didn't realize, but I said to my husband, I don't get that glass half empty or half full thing. I said, whichever way you look at it, it's half empty.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh,

[B]

you know that. You know that dumb and dumber thing you were talking about earlier? Yeah.

[A]

Maybe need to throw a few errors dumber on there. So how much longer is this trip to the UK for you?

[C]

Oh, no, I've only. I just got back from London today, so only another couple of days and then.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Heading back home. So I was talking to my mum because she's in hospital and she's like,

[D]

when are you coming back?

[C]

Because I'm at care and stuff. And I said, don't worry, Mum. This time next week, I'll be sitting there cutting your toenail.

[D]

So it's kind of like going from the sublime did the ridiculous. I'm like, wait a minute, you're in

[C]

London, you know, in the Natural History Museum next year, like in a hospital ward.

[B]

I thought you're going to say the next year, back at Rob's house photographing swans.

[C]

You're in a hospital ward cutting and, you know, your mother's toenails.

[A]

Do you guys have any other photography plans while you're together still?

[B]

No, we haven't talked about it, have we?

[C]

Because we're going to go do the mushrooms.

[B]

Oh, we're going to. Yeah. We're having the most amazing season. Yeah.

[C]

It's like this smurf's gonna pop out wherever, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Honestly, it's been. It's been pretty amazing. We went out with Victoria Hillman.

[C]

God, was that a flyer, Garrick? Like the size of a dinner plate. It was phenomenal. It was perfect.

[B]

Never seen one that big before and it would. Yeah. So we're having the most phenomenal fungi season, so we thought we'd perhaps go out and do a bit of that. But no, not really any major plans. Because it's kind of, you know, you sort of get into the end of it now and you're thinking, ah, then life goes back to normal. Yeah. Because despite everything else, she's quite good. Fun to have around.

[C]

Yeah. But when I go, you're going to be so relieved.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you are. It's gonna be.

[B]

It is gonna be quiet. It's gonna be weird, actually. It's gonna be. What? What happened?

[A]

Yeah. I've totally hung out with photographers like that in the past. I've had, like,

[D]

very careful.

[A]

Their energy level is so high, and they're so fun to be around. But me as a person, I can't keep up with it that long, and so it exhausts me after a little bit. So short stays are wonderful. It's amazing.

[D]

It's uplifting.

[C]

Rob is feeling like they're too.

[A]

And then I'm like, all right, I need to, like, mellow out and calm down and have some calm, you know? Like, that's usually how it goes.

[C]

You know, it's even like these awards, right? And they have, like, four. I remember last year it happened, too. They had, like, four events, and the first two are fun, right. But then you get to the third, and you're like, okay. And then. And then by the fourth, I'm like, I want to crawl back under my rock now. Like, I've had enough socializing. I'm exhausted.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

I'm ready. I'm ready.

[A]

And, like, I think everybody feels that way.

[C]

Yeah, well, I don't know. And then there's this wild photo thing on they have today where. And they're going, oh, you're going to go. And there's all these speeches, and I thought I couldn't do it anyway, because I just. I've had enough. I've had enough, you know, I want to go home and I want to be quiet.

[A]

I want to. I want to ask this question to both of you to wrap up the conversation. When you guys travel like this and it's photography focused and you're going to be doing some photography, are you a hundred percent all in? Is it, like, if it's a photography trip, are you doing photography every moment you get a chance, or do you try and, like, mix it up and do some other things and just kind of keep photography a little bit more casual?

[C]

Oh, my God. Right? Are you a. Are you a bird photographer or not?

[A]

I am. Well.

[C]

And what do bird photographers haven't Got. We are completely and utterly obsessed.

[D]

So even if we wanted to do

[C]

something else, it would actually be impossible

[D]

because you can't not notice birds. And.

[C]

And it's a complete obsession, isn't it? Do you remember we went to Stonehenge, right.

[D]

And we ended up photographing the rooks like we were looking the opposite direction

[C]

to Stonehenge, photographing the birds with our wide angle lenses. Because we didn't bring the birding lenses.

[D]

Yeah, because we saw a bird,

[A]

you know.

[B]

It has been exhausting, isn't it? Because we, we've been just doing stuff constantly while.

[C]

That's why. Because we so really think that we just love birds so much. We can't, you know.

[B]

Yeah. And what's the point? I mean, I mean the other thing is if you go somewhere, photography, if you go somewhere or you spend time some with somebody that you. I mean, Georgina's on the other side of the world for me, obviously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the amount of time that we spend together is very, very limited. So you think I'm going to make the most of this time because. Because if we just went and did something else, just lounged around and, you know, bummed about a little bit. It's just. You feel like you've wasted that time. Yeah.

[C]

Well, also, I'm in another country. I actually don't care about museums and things like that. I mean, I would have done something I really wanted to see. I don't do that. Oh, big cities in there. I just want to be in nature and you've got different nature to me and I want to explore, I want to look. I'm excited to see the.

[D]

What are they called?

[C]

The jack doors.

[B]

I love things because we, we met up at Richmond park yesterday morning and with, with the, you know, grand. All grand intentions to, to photograph the deer that are rutting at this time of the year. And you're gonna, you're gonna rid me if I say the light was crappy, aren't you?

[D]

But anyway, it was, it was witching about the light.

[B]

So instead of, instead of photographing deer, we, we end up photographing jackdaws, which, you know, for me, I mean, there's common.

[C]

I actually think I got my favorite shot of the trip there. I said I actually think.

[B]

Yeah, but that was, but that was fun, you know, it was unexpected and it was, it was fun and, and that's what it's all about, isn't it? I mean. Okay, so you, you photograph something different to that which you set out to photograph. It doesn't matter.

[C]

It's not the original, but we get back to the original. Thing is, do we go all out? And the answer probably is yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Well, no, because for me, it is not that case anymore. I, I still like, and, and moderation way. Well, I still love to be out in nature, so I'm okay with, like, going out and.

[B]

Yeah, but Ray, life is one big holiday for you.

[A]

This is true. This is absolutely true. I think that is part of it, dude. Absolutely. That is totally part of it. You're not wrong. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, dear. I, I, you know, I, when you, because obviously we've had this chat. You came on the, On Josh podcast and we had this chat about the, the Van Life.

[C]

Bastard Josh.

[B]

Yeah. That bastard Josh keeps on coming up with it.

[D]

He's like the nicest guy in the world.

[A]

I know. He is. He's so sweet.

[C]

I know. I, we, we decided, Josh, we could, we could, we could break Josh from. I think we're probably too mean for him.

[B]

I don't know if he could handle it.

[C]

He reckons he could, though. He said he comes from an Italian family, so.

[B]

Funny, because when, when Georgina arrived and we were out photographing together, she said, I'm going to send Josh a message.

[C]

Send him a really rude, abusive message.

[B]

She sent him a really rude, abusive message. I mean, mucking around, obviously.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And, you know, swearing at him and,

[C]

you know, why are you here? Kind of thing.

[B]

Yeah. Because he was supposed to, he was supposed to come.

[A]

Oh, gotcha.

[B]

And then, and, and then he sent the, the nicest message back.

[C]

Hi, guys.

[A]

It makes you feel bad for doing that?

[B]

No.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I like that you said no. Like, I'll just double down.

[B]

It was, it was funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I'm not, not sure he could handle a sex.

[A]

To answer what you're saying, though. You're suggesting Rob, though. That is part of it. I think if I went all out all the time, I would burn out on it all. You know, I need to, like, kind of moderate myself a little bit just because this is my life. This is what I get to do all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And always seeing new places and so, like, I have to mix in hiking and biking and just doing other things. Although I'll never do the museum thing either. I'm with you on that, Georgie.

[C]

Yeah. I've done enough cities in my life.

[B]

It, you know, I find, I find them. Yeah, they're just choking.

[C]

But the thing is, I mean, we're only here for a short time, so. And then we both live relatively introverted lives, don't we?

[B]

You wouldn't believe it, would you? But yes.

[C]

No, we didn't. Well, I do. I hardly ever go out at home and I'm obviously a carer and stuff, so. And I don't even have anyone to talk to, really, so. Because my mum's got a bit of dementia and my husband's got a neurodegenerative illness and he. He can't really have a conversation for very long, so it's kind of like. Yeah, so it's probably part of the reason. And, you know, I'm so psychotic. Psychotic.

[A]

It's all pent up and then you get out in the public and it

[B]

has to be released.

[C]

It is. And I'm in a bit. I'm a bit much for some people. I mean, I know at the awards I was, but. But it's kind of like. It's like a release, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I've had such a shitty time and this is, you know.

[A]

Yeah, well. And I entirely still get. No matter what I am doing, I am 100 with you. I never don't see the orca, the birds. I'm always connected to the birds. No matter where we go.

[C]

Can we.

[A]

You can't turn it off. It's impossible.

[C]

You know. Have you ever done it where you're talking to someone and you're like, oh, there's a bird.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you ready? When me and Emily first decided to start dating four plus years ago, we had a conversation. And part of that conversation was, it's okay if we're in the middle of talking and somebody sees a bird, you can go off after that bird. It was like a base level thing for us to get into this relationship that we're both. Okay, okay with always chasing the birds, even when we're talking to each other.

[C]

Did you have that thing before, before Emily, that when you were married with someone who wasn't a birder, and then like, you'd book a holiday somewhere and you'd suggest somewhere and they'd go, do there happen to be birds there?

[D]

And you go, well, actually, as it

[A]

turns out, Georgina, I'm so lucky now. Do you know I talked. So many people are so jealous because any trip I go on, the two of us are both into the birding and going out into nature. So we don't have to sacrifice. Yeah. Because everybody else is like, well, I got to balance this outing with the family and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, I don't have to do that. We just get to go and have at it. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. You are very lucky.

[A]

Yeah, I am very lucky. I'm grateful for it every day. I really am.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, guys, I have to say thank you so much for coming on the show.

[C]

Thank you for having us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

An amazing, really good fun.

[A]

Yes. What a blast. I wish you both the best with the rest of your trip and the coming years for photography and can't wait to see what you keep doing and sharing and.

[C]

He's nice, isn't he?

[D]

Must be a North American thing.

[C]

Are they all nice?

[D]

Well, not all of them.

[B]

Not all of them.

[A]

Yes, that's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what I'm gonna title this episode. A hole. Josh.

[D]

Oh, my God, it's so beautiful because

[C]

he's just like so nice.

[A]

I know. Yeah. We'll just paint this horrible picture for people that don't know him.

[B]

Josh, you know we're joking. Yeah. Thanks, Ray. Yeah. Been great to chat.

[C]

Yeah. Cheers, Ray.

[A]

Hey, this is Ray Hennessy. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode. Please subscribe and your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.