A (2:15)

Yeah, it's probably both.

B (2:16)

That makes sense if I can say that. Like, obviously, like it was my choice to kind of come back to Italy and you know, photography also played a big role in that. But at the same time it's like, you know, a bit of the kind of coming back. It's, you know, when you say culture shock, this is the anti culture shock. Like being back in your own culture is also weird after having been away for so long.

A (2:45)

I know. In a way I totally get it. In a way it's like kind of less exciting. It's like, oh, everything's still the same, which is comforting but also kind of boring.

B (2:54)

Yes, exactly.

A (2:55)

Yes, I totally get that. So now I gotta ask because you brought it up. Photography was a part of the move back. In what way?

B (3:05)

Yeah, it was. So maybe I need to kind of give a bit of context here.

A (3:11)

Let's go all the way back. Go ahead.

B (3:12)

Yes, yes. We need kind of to rewind. So. Well, I moved abroad immediately after my graduation and I moved abroad for my PhD. So I've been doing this PhD in Scotland. Then after that I was working as a scientist in a field totally not related to, you know, birds or photography. All right, so in the mean, in the meantime, I discovered photography in a period when I was really, really miserable with my mental health. So in case anyone, you know, is listening, you know, doing a PhD can be quite harsh. So I was really, really struggling with anxiety. And that's when I started birth photography. So, you know, birth photography, I always said that that was like the best thing that I could find and it had really had therapeutic power of me. And you know, throughout the years then obviously I started learning everything about birds and photography and you know, at a point I became so really excited about it that I decided to quit my full time job as a scientist to become professional and you know, being a professional wildlife photographer, teaching wildlife photography. And I've done this for one year still staying in Belgium because, you know, that was the country where I was living. However, I also feel that when you do, you know, when you do wildlife photography, I'm sure you also relate to that. There's really a big thing about that connection to a place. Right. So it's so important to really understand locations and the place where you are are so obviously, you know, I had great, let's say locations and I'm really grateful for the places that I was able to discover in Belgium, which is the country where I literally, let's say, became a Viola photographer. However, I also feel like I could never really connect to that place to a certain level because it wasn't the place where I'm originally from. And throughout those years, then whenever I was coming back to Italy, obviously to visit family and friends, it was really like rediscovering my country in a completely new way. You know, I left Italy saying, you know, I don't want to have nothing to do with this country. It was really like running away from, from, from the country. And then, you know, after starting photography and kind of visiting back, I was looking at a place complet and I was like, oh my God, it's so great. And you know, photography was really way to reconnect. Yes, exactly. Like to reconnect really to my roots. So I said, okay, if I, if I just doing this, I think that I really should, you know, give it a go to and come back, like, reconsider that. So that's, that's what I did. So now it's been, yeah, a few, A few months that I'm back and it's, it's a slow process, but so far I'm enjoying it.

A (6:31)

That's awesome. That's really cool. So I want to go back a little bit, if you don't mind.

B (6:35)

Sure.

A (6:36)

You said you're, you know, you're doing this PhD and working like crazy, having some anxiety from that. And then you turn to bird photography. How did that even come about? Like how out of all the things you could pick to help out, you go with bird photography?

B (6:51)

It's so, it's honestly. Honestly. Right. It's so crazy. Like, I always say that, uh, I, I obviously, I don't believe in destiny, but there was some magic in here, in, in that because, you know, I was, I was really, you know, in a bad place mentally, and I was literally just finding ways to distract myself from my thoughts. And I remember that I had a DSLR camera and funnily enough, I bought that camera for me when I moved to Scotland because, you know, it was me going abroad. So I thought, o, hey, I'm going to photograph everything. Yeah, yeah. To have a camera because Scotland is supposed to be a nice place. You know, all those amazing landscape photos that you get, you know, thinking about Scotland. So I bought that. It was a, like a canon of 1300D. I still remember. I still have it, obviously.

A (7:45)

Do you really?

B (7:47)

Yes, yes. It's, you know, it's really a big memory for me. And obviously as many things in life, like, you know, when you think that you want to get started with a new hobby and then you buy all the things and then you never actually do it.

A (8:01)

Sure.

B (8:02)

That was actually me with that camera.

A (8:03)

That's kind of what happened. Yeah.

B (8:05)

So, you know, I bought the camera, brought it all the way with me from Italy to Scotland, and then, you know, it just stayed there in that closet for like two years, literally. And then when, let's say all of the anxiety was happening, I again, I was like, I don't know, I just got this random memory that I had this camera. So I took the camera and obviously I went on YouTube and watched maybe a couple of tutorials about how to use, you know, when you look for, like, how to, how to use your DSLR camera or something like that. So I watched these few tutorials, and then it just felt natural for me to go to the. To the city park, because, you know, in all the anxiety, one of the few things that was kind of helping me a bit was when I was walking in nature. So that was already kind of something that I had inside of me. So I went to this city park thinking, okay, I'll just photograph the park itself. Like, the flowers, the trees, that. That was my original idea. And when I was walking in this park, like, literally, a small bird, which is a European robin, which is a bit different from your American robin.

A (9:21)

They're really pretty, though.

B (9:22)

Like, it just hopped outside. Yes, it's such a pretty bird. Like, with the orange breast, it just hopped outside of a bush. And you. This bird was literally coming towards me because European robins are really bold as birds. Honestly, they are tiny, but they're really bold. So imagine, like, I got these portraits of a robin, even if I had a 55 to 250 millimeter lens, so, you know, that's not a long lens. And I still got. I got portraits. And that moment, for me was literally like a button. And when you turn on something like, that was it. Like, I had that encounter. I saw that robin, and really, something inside of me was lit. And birds exist. Yes. It was like, I was immediately hooked, and it was so powerful because, you know, I really put also kind of really, who say a really deep meaning to this encounter, because the way I read that first encounter was that I saw that robin come towards me. And what I thought was like, oh, my God, this little bird is so brave. And I thought, okay, I can be brave, too. Just as this little bird, I can get through these. Because I was really thinking I would never be happy again because anxiety was really hurt, eating me really hard. So I was, you know, really in this black space. And that robin was kind of me for me, the signal that, you know, I could also be brave just as the little robin. So I remember from the walk back home, like, I took those photos, which, you know, thinking back, those are actually so great photos, considering I was, you know, an absolute beginner, but, you know, the total beginner lack. Yeah.

A (11:24)

Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

B (11:26)

And I came back home, and I felt so, so joyful. Honestly, I was like, oh, my God, that was amazing. That bird was so great, so cool. And I literally came home, started to read everything I could read about birds, about photography, and that was it. That was it. Like, from that moment, literally all my free time from that single day was then devoted for birds and photography, it was that sudden for me. Yes.

A (11:54)

That's really, really cool. Yeah. And then you get into it and then there's no escape.

B (11:58)

No, no escape. Like, for me, I don't think we

A (12:00)

want one, but, you know.

B (12:02)

No, no, no, we don't. We don't. But, yeah, sometimes, you know, it's like I also, you know, meet many other. When I also talk with other photographers, they're like, okay, I. I do a bit of birds, a bit to be a little bit of, you know, other wildlife and maybe some macro, some landscape. And I'm like, you know, guys, for me, birds is everything that's always existed.

A (12:24)

Yeah. Y. Have you ever experimented with, like, since you got into bird photography, have you experimented with anything else or is it just really strictly been the birds?

B (12:32)

Well, I, obviously, I tried because I also, you know, I also really think that it's so important to experiment. Right. Because I think that also only via experimenting with other kind of photography, you also improve much more. Also you learn more skills. So then you can also just go back to your, let's say, main photo genre. But, yes, I obviously, if I have, you know, if I meet another animal, surely I would take a photo of it. So, yeah, obviously, I also do some other wildlife. I also just very recently got my first macro lens, actually.

A (13:08)

Okay.

B (13:08)

So that's something that I just definitely want to get more of in next year. That's, you know, in my 20, 26 goals. Yes.

A (13:18)

That's very cool. Yeah, I've done the macro thing and we have a macro lens, and I've. I used to do workshops for, like, butterflies and insects on flowers, frogs, and stuff like that. But I gotta say, just for me, it kind of just bored me. Like, I just. I don't get the same level of excitement from it. And I really do appreciate good macro photography, and I think it's amazing. There's definitely a whole different set of skills that are used there, and it's a. It's really neat to see that tiny world and, like, you know, just see all these details that we normally don't get to see with our eyes. But every single time I do it, I'm kind of like, yeah, it's a little boring for me.

B (13:57)

Okay. Okay. So are you also. Are you also, like, like, how. Well, what would be, like, the percentage of, like, bird photography versus the other photos that you take?

A (14:09)

Yeah, I'd say birds are probably still like a good 80% for me. Okay, okay. Other wildlife just mixed in along the travels, you know.

B (14:18)

Okay.

A (14:19)

But, yeah, I don't really. I mean, I was a wedding and portrait photographer for 20 years of my life, so I did that. I worked for an architect photographer for eight years as well. And so I've worked in other genres plenty of time. So I have other experiences stuff, but it just doesn't appeal to me to do in my own personal time, you know.

B (14:39)

Yeah, totally.

A (14:41)

Yep. But it is, I totally agree with you. Learning those other genres is so helpful. I think it's. I think it's almost, I don't want to say a requirement, but I think it's one of the things that can really benefit any photographer the most is to learn and sort of dive somewhat deep into any other genre of photography. Because there is, like you said, so much crossover that I think it's really just a wonderful way to learn new skill sets and learn to just see things in a different way, you know?

B (15:17)

Yes. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Like, for example, I also take loads of inspiration also just looking at landscape photographers, for example, because, like, I know that here I know that you will agree with me because I know that you're also a small in frame person. So, you know, when we get these photos where, you know, the bird is kind of tiny and the surroundings and the habitat are part of the shot just as much as the subject. And I think that in there you have to be, you know, much more mindful when you compose that photo. And I think it also requires, you know, more skills in terms of reading the light, reading the other compositional elements. And obviously in that, for example, landscape photographers definitely, let's say, lead the way. So also in this case, it's nice that you get, you know, those skills, experimenting with landscape, because that's something that you can immediately bring back to also bird photography.

A (16:17)

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. All right, so another thing I want to go back to. All right, so you kind of, you said you sort of really learned and really honed your craft and became a bird photographer in Belgium. And so you get tied into the locations and understanding everything and then you move back to Italy and everything's new. What was that process like? How did that feel?

B (16:39)

Well, you know, it's funny because just literally just yesterday I looked back at the videos that I recorded the first time that I went to say goodbye to my locations in Belgium. So when I left Belgium, just as kind of as a memory for myself, you know, I went to all my favorite locations. So smart, really, the ones that were more important for me in my development as a birth photographer, where I had, you know, the Say the core memories formed as a birth photographer. So before leaving Belgium, I went back to each of these locations and, you know, I just recorded my. My thoughts, also my emotions. And sure, it was lots of cry of me going around when I, you know, because it was. It was kind of really, really hard because, you know, I think that when you visit a place for so long, like in my case was, you know, years that I was there, you kind of really become attached to the place and to the birds that live there. Like, it's. I know that, you know, in wildlife, with wildlife and generally with animals, you know, we're not really supposed to kind of really, let's say, humanize the animals.

A (17:55)

That's part of the fun.

B (17:56)

Yes, it is. So, you know, like, I had these bird friends and, you know, I also had names for them. So, you know, saying goodbye to, I really called them my best friends. So that was literally the way I referred to them. So, like, saying goodbye was. Was really, really hard. And yeah, it was funny. Now just going back to those videos because I haven't done it for all these months because it was too painful to look back at those videos and, you know, bring back all those memories. And now kind of coming back to Italy, honestly, I thought that, you know, this is. That I just maybe underestimated or maybe I didn't really think a lot about it, but it kind of takes a long time to rebuild, like your location set or also just the connection with places. So I kind of maybe I thought I'm going back to Italy and that just because it's kind of my country, it would be, let's say, easier and more immediate. But that actually wasn't the case. So. So in these months, it's been a lot of exploration and also just accepting the fact that it's not going to be that immediate. So I'm doing lots of location scouting and I'm still rebuilding that connection, if that makes sense. And it's okay because now thinking back, also in Belgium, it's not like that after a first visit to a place, I was kind of connected to it also there. It took many visits to build that connection. So it's just taking the same time here also in Italy. So I would say that now it's a work in progress, but I'm happy of the exploration and also getting the chance to kind of relive, let's say, that phase of photography. That makes sense.

A (19:54)

No, definitely that was going to be. My next question is, I was going to say photographically, do you find it more you know, fun and exciting to kind of relearn and do the scouting and go through that, or do you find it more frustrating? Because I think, you know, different photographers could find it different ways. Especially if you left a place where you kind of, you know, you have your go to's, where you're like, oh, I got this figured out and I can do this. And then you go to a new place and it's like, oh man, I, I, it can almost feel like a regression in photography because, you know, we need some, some of us, you know, depending on the location, it's quite often that we just need time to figure it out and fail and get better and iterate, you know. So, yeah, I was curious what the overall feeling is. Is it more excitement or frustration or A little bit.

B (20:43)

That's a good question. Like, I want to be honest, I think that I'm more on the frustration side of things right now.

A (20:50)

Totally get it. Yeah.

B (20:52)

Because, yeah, like, I, you know, I'm, I'm obviously kind of happy for some of the, some of the locations. I am already, let's say, at a good place. So, for example, one of the, one of my new location, which is something that, you know, I didn't have really in Belgium is, you know, the beach by the sea where we have a really nice little bird, which is the Kentish plover. And you know, having these birds now like kind of available to me literally throughout the year because they are, they are both nesting here, but they're also staying throughout the winter. It's something really exciting like, because, you know, I, I love really that species on the other side. I really have to say that I kind of miss the typical wetlands habitat that I had plenty of access in Belgium because, yeah, obviously Belgium in the Netherlands, like, it's, it's, it's wetlands, literally. So, like here, and those were kind of my favorite places. And those were also the, let's say, the habitats of my favorite species, if that makes sense. Like, I really love everything which has water and all birds associated with water. So not having that is kind of hard. I must say that I might have found a lake which looks nice. I've been there already. Like now it's been already maybe five or six times. So again, it's taking a while. But maybe this last time that I was there, it was the first time that I said, okay, maybe this can work when you feel like the creative spark and you get to see, okay, maybe, yes, I can use these and maybe I can place myself here and it's the first time that I got photos there that I was actually proud of, so I felt that was a really nice step forward.

A (22:53)

Oh, that's awesome.

B (22:55)

It's taking time. So, yeah, I would say that it's a bit frustrating. I mean, I wish there is a part of me saying, okay, would it be nice if you had all your locations available already and not going here and there, scouting? But that's okay. That's okay. That's the process. So embracing the process a waste.

A (23:16)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, and I think that's probably. I mean, I feel like that's how it would go for most people. I've. I've known a few photographers that have, you know, sort of learned and established bird photography in their lives in a certain place and then did a big move to a whole other location. And I think that's pretty standard for everybody to go through. And it would make sense that that's how it's going to be because, yeah, it's just you go from having all these go to spots to everything's new and I know, and you've expressed it, there is excitement in that as well. But it takes time to really figure out and build up to be able to get those consistent, great shots and really understand the location. So I think that's totally normal and makes absolute perfect sense.

B (24:03)

Mm, yeah.

A (24:06)

I do think, however, the excitement of when it starts to work out and that's the thing that comes down the road, right? When something starts to work out. Oh, man, that's the best. When you start to figure out like a new location. And like you said, you know, like, if I position myself here, go in this time of day and. And then you start getting those photos. Oh, that's the best, isn't it?

B (24:27)

Yeah, I know that. That's. That's the best feeling ever. Like, and it's also so funny that, you know, this is also something that I clearly remember, like my, my go to location in Belgium, that place I actually hated the first time that I visited. I really remember this. Yes, I went there the first time and it was, I think it was, you know, the mix of factors. Like normally in bird photography. No, so it's, you know, you have all these variables, like, obviously the light, the weather, what birds are doing, also just your, let's say, your mental state and so many factors. So the first time I went there, like, it was such a bad day. Like, I remember looking at the place, I say, oh my God, this place is ugly. Like, I would never come back here. So I actually didn't go back for months and then I again randomly one day I said, okay, maybe I'm just going to have another look. So I went back and I said, oh, now it looks really different now that's great. And yeah, it was like that. So, you know, this is also why I always say, guys, you don't need to give up on a place after your first session. I think you need at least three times in a place to really say, okay, this is, you know, to really figure out versus yes, no potential at all. So it was really like that. Like, imagine if I would have not going back to that place where I got. Yes. Some of my best photos. Like, so, yeah, guys, please just. Yeah, maybe this is your signal just to give it another chance to allocation that maybe you discarded a while ago.

A (26:13)

No, you're right, because there's. There are so many things that go into it. Right? It is, you know, exactly. The weather, the cooperation of subjects and so much, you know, your mood and that sort of thing. And all of these things kind of have to line up a lot of the times for a place to really feel amazing and connected to it. And, and also there is something to be said for growth over time. And you know, like, especially when you're in that phase of just like learning everything, you know, the growth is so exponential and a couple of months you can see things totally different than you did a few months ago. And now you go back and you're like, I want to see all this potential. So it's really good advice.

B (26:50)

So true. Yes, so true. Also, another thing that I haven't mentioned also, you know, the difference a season make in bird photography. So like go into a place like in winter and going to a place during breeding season. So yeah, like, I think that maybe it will also be the same for you. But I literally have some locations that are, let's say, or were, because, yeah, they were. Is not something established now. But let's say, you know, there were spring and summer locations and there were kind of autumn winter locations. So that's also really important, like when visiting a place and deciding whether it has potential or not.

A (27:30)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's why Emily and I just travel around the country. You know, we just drive wherever it's good all the time.

B (27:37)

That's kind of how we live. That's such a smart approach.

A (27:41)

Yeah, we get to live with like the birds. We just migrate with them.

B (27:44)

Yeah. So you don't wait for the birds to come to you?

A (27:47)

No.

B (27:48)

You just chase them.

A (27:49)

Exactly. Yeah, we just, we Follow them along. Yeah. Yes, that's totally how it goes. Yeah. Well, that's really cool, though. I'm excited for you for the new place and the potential for everything. That's really exciting.

B (28:04)

Yes.

A (28:05)

All right, so I want to pivot a little bit to the fact that you decided to go all in on doing this full time as a wildlife photographer. Number one. What? I don't know about what, but. But was that a tough decision? Was that scary? Was it, I mean, or was it just all excitement and you knew that's where your life was meant to go? How did that come about and how did that feel going through that process?

B (28:35)

Well, it was terribly scary. Of course it was, because, you know, when, like, on paper, I had the perfect life, like, really, like, you know, had a great job abroad, great position, great career advancement opportunities, I was working in a. In a top company. So, yeah, like, it was kind of the. The dream life looked from the outside.

A (29:06)

Yeah.

B (29:07)

And, you know, I think that in life really often we kind of get caught up, let's say, in versions of ourselves that are more versions that others establish for us, or sometimes it can also just be, you know, ourselves, but just something that gets pushed via, you know, the way we are, the way we grow up, like the. Around us, the society. So the thing is that, you know, since I, you know, birth photography was, for me was literally something that healed me. So it was really important. Like, it became a huge, huge part of me, you know, I was living my life literally just waiting for the weekend to, you know, to go out for photography. Like, it was like that powerful. Oh, I was also going doing birth photography before going to work. Like, I had, you know, a 9 to 5, so I was going, you know, doing bird photography before work, I was trying to go doing birth photography after work. And I just waited for the weekend to do as much as I could. And it was really like sometimes, I know, sometimes, but I. With time, I really started to feel as the. The time wasn't just enough for all I wanted to do. Like, there were so many places, there were so many birds I wanted to watch. And also in the meantime, I also started my social media journey. Right. So I, you know, I started my Instagram account and I also started creating content, so not, just, you know, post my photos, but also sharing, you know, tips and tutorials and that kind of stuff. Because since very early in my journey, kind of, I realized that I also really liked to, like, teach whatever I was learning, you know, at the beginning, I was very much also, I still A beginner myself. However, I was like, you know, if I learned this, and, you know, for me, maybe it took one year. If I can make this journey easier and shorter for someone else, I would. I would do it. So that's why I started. That's what, that's what motivated me. So, you know, having the photography and the content creation next to it, as I'm sure that you also, you know, understand how, you know, how much time consuming is to bring forward all the things. Because, you know, just doing. Yeah, just doing photography is already, you know, time. You know, it takes time. You know, just go to the location, take the photos, sort the photos, edit the photos, and then, you know, creating content is something completely on top of it. Right.

A (31:46)

Like, I got a quick question for you on that.

B (31:48)

Yes, yes.

A (31:50)

So this is, this is the thing I struggle with so much is that so often I think, like, all right, this would be. This would make a good video or a good concept to share or whatever. But then I realized it's going to take me out of, like, the, of me taking the photos in that moment. And I. It's such a hard struggle for me. I almost always still revert back to, I just want to do the photography. I don't want to do all this other stuff. Do you struggle with that?

B (32:18)

Yes, yes, I do. And this is actually why, like, in most cases, I. I like, create content when I'm at home. So I kind of separate the, like, also just physically I separate the things. So. Because for me, it's extremely hard to go out.

A (32:39)

So hard to shoot and do the content. Yeah.

B (32:41)

And do both the things. So I'm also, you know, this is also why, for example, I don't. I've never really, you know, done content in the sense of. Of sharing what I'm actually doing right. In the field. So I do most other, let's say share other, let's say, type of educational content. But that's exactly because I would find it extremely, extremely hard to combine. Yeah, to combine the things. For example, I was just shooting a video yesterday, and for this video, I wanted to record it outside.

A (33:17)

Was that like the fifth time you were trying that video or something?

B (33:19)

Yes, yes. That video. Yes. That terrible. Yeah. Well, it's a video that. It's really dear to me, so I really wanted to put it out as soon as possible. And, you know, maybe the harder you want something.

A (33:31)

Yeah. The more things go wrong.

B (33:33)

Yes. So, you know, I got everything failing, like microphones, GoPros, like, literally everything. So yesterday I went outside and I wanted to record that out because, you know, I felt that it was. I just wanted a nice, let's say, natural environment for the video. So I went there and I recorded the video finally. And after that, I took some time for photography. So. But, you know, in that case, I kind of prioritized the video and, you know, you could. You could think, okay, Chiara, but you're a photographer, so shouldn't you prioritize taking photos over recording a video? But, you know, in a moment, I really wanted. Yeah, I really wanted to record that video. But still. And I still got the chance to do some photography, but doing both at the same time, I think that I would find that really hard as well. So. Yeah, but maybe I would try next year, but I'm not sure it will work because I think that, yeah, I fill you with this idea that then it's just too much taking you out from the photography itself.

A (34:41)

Yep. Yeah. And I just feel like the photography always suffers for me, you know, I shouldn't say always. I shouldn't say always. There's some times where it kind of works out, but I feel like more often than not, as soon as I decide, all right, I'm going to try and turn this into a video and. Or even if I decide beforehand, I just always feel like the photography suffering because there's so many other things you have to concentrate on. And it's not like, you know, we're both doing this by ourselves. It's not like we have a crew that's there to record us and follow us around. You can just go shoot. Right. Like, that would be a very different thing.

B (35:12)

Yes, yes. But, yeah, yeah, no, because, you know, I think that's one of the beauty of photography, or in least one of the huge benefits that I also had from photography, from, you know, a mental side, is that photography is one of those activities where you can fully flow. So it's like you're really in the moment. It's one of those activities where, you know, when you lose track of time.

A (35:40)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (35:41)

That means that you're in that amazing state where you're just fully present, you're fully in the moment, you're fully enjoying what you're doing when, you know, you don't have any other thoughts, you know, occupying your mind. So I think that that's really the value of photography. So then, obviously, if we have to think about creating content, it's impossible, you know, to remain in that flow and at the same time also kind of, you know, check the mic and start the Camera and you know, check the, I don't know, check the settings and

A (36:17)

do it again when it fails.

B (36:20)

Yes, exactly. Yes, yes.

A (36:21)

Something always goes wrong, it seem.

B (36:24)

Yes.

A (36:24)

Oh my goodness. What was I going to ask? I had something else. Oh. Do you have any other hobbies outside of photography, bird photography or is that it? Is that what you spend all your free time doing right now?

B (36:41)

Well, well obviously now it's better like compared to before when I was having, you know, a job. Obviously like literally all my free time was photography. Now, now it's better because now photography occupies, let's say the bulk part of my time. So I'm really happy that I was able to kind of claim back some of other free time which I really felt was missing for a while. So hobby, like I would not say it's really a hobby, but I'm really into yoga and meditation. So that's also a way in which I spent, you know, my time in. I'm also kind of a TV shows binge watcher type of person and I'm also a book lover. So I'm really glad that like I was able to get restarted really reading. So. Yeah, that would be me. Yes.

A (37:42)

Nice. Well, I just think that's really good because I have known so many people that and I came close to it myself. I will say from my own experience, you just get so into the bird photography and there's nothing else and then it can like lead to burnout, you know, it can lead to just like. And I really do think it's beneficial for most people to have just some other activities and hobbies or interests in their lives that can supplement, you know, even if the bulk of it is the photography, then it's just nice to have these other things in there. So I was just kind of curious, you know.

B (38:18)

Yeah, no, no, I think that, that that's really a good point because at the end of the day, you know, I think as human beings we are really complex. So, you know, there's never just one thing. But then it's mostly like, I think that also most people will actually like multiple things. It's more about making sure that we make. Make time for also other things. And I think that that's also important because it's not great to identify completely to a certain activity or a certain area of your life because you know that that's when something that that's when things can go wrong. Like it's something that, you know, I learned myself because personally before I was really identifying me completely with what I was achieving Kind of professionally so, like academically. And that was also a huge, you know, it was also one of the huge reason why it went down so bad at the end because obviously then if you kind of lose that part of you, sure, you know, it's very, it's very weird to handle. Like, it's like you're. You're losing completely yourself. But in reality, that's not true because we are all made of many different parts and we all have, you know, many different things that characterize us and that we love. So I think it's really nice that we find time to kind of really do different things. So, obviously, again, birds and bird photography are a huge part of my life, but I really try to find also time for other things.

A (39:59)

Nice. Well, and I think it's also, you know, I'd like to go back to just going through that process of kind of ditching your. Your standard mainstream job. You know, five, the security, the safety, the, you know, quote unquote, what society told you you should do and then following your dream. And I think that's. I commend you for that because I think there's not a lot of people that get the chance to do that or take the gamble. Because like you said, the first thing you said when I asked you about it was like, yeah, it was scary. Yeah, know, and it is. But I have to say, you know, being someone who's lucky enough to have been living this type of dream for a very long time now, it's amazing. And I really, I love talking about it and sharing with someone else who's gone through it, going through it and sharing with others because, like, I can't recommend it enough for anybody out there to just to go for it. Because, like, I think just like you said, there's. There's so many things in our lives that are outside influences us. Outside influences telling us the way we should do things and how we should do things and all of this. And, you know, I feel like I'm here to say, and I think you can kind of agree with this, like, you don't have to follow those set rules. You know, you can do things your own way. And, and I know it's not always 100%, but when it does work out and if you have a lot of passion for it and really put in the time, effort, it's an amazing way to live. And it's, you know, for me, it was never a way to be rich and make a ton of money or anything like that. It was just a way to really thoroughly, truly enjoy my life every single day.

B (41:45)

No. Yes. I think that's, you know, you made such a good point. And you know, for anyone also, like, who's just listening to our stories, I think that is true that obviously taking that decision was absolutely scary. Obviously it's not something that I decided, you know, from one day to another. Like, it took me literally months of self reflection and, you know, conversations with, you know, I don't know, people around me, but also within. Yeah, within myself mostly. But at the end, I can also say that now, you know, after more than one year that I took this decision is that I. This was, this was hard, but I don't have regrets. Like, literally, like I, I'm facing also just now or still now, like so many challenges because there are so many things that you have to figure it out by yourself because, you know, it's kind of easy to be employed in a company. You know, all the paperwork is ready, you get, you know, you get your, your salary on the bank account and that's it. Like, you show up for work and that's it. Like, all the stuff happens. Yeah. And it's kind of like, literally it's so eas and all of these was a huge set of challenges, and it still proves to be a huge set of challenges. But I also felt that I learned tons of things. Obviously there are also things that I honestly hate. Also the more bureaucracy part. Also here. It doesn't help that I'm back to Italy, which is notoriously not a really nice country to kind of be a freelance, but that was my choice and I kind of, I went in knowing that. But yeah, there are definitely things that I'm still figuring out and things that I don't like much about being doing this now, however, what I gained is just the peace within myself that I'm living the life that at least I want to try to live. I mean, what I told myself when I took the decision, it's like, I would try. Like, if I don't, if I don't succeed, you know, I'll just find something else. Like, I mean, you know, everything that I, you know, I have in my, Everything that I've studied, like, all my previous career is not something that, you know, disappears.

A (44:23)

Like, it's not magically gone out of your brain. Yeah. Yeah.

B (44:25)

So I said, okay, like, what's the point? Like, I'll just try and then if it doesn't work, I'll, I'll find, you know, I'll go back or I'll find other ways. But, you know, life is. Is surprising. I think that what, you know, birth photography taught me, you know, that encounter with that Robin taught me, is that really, life can surprise. Can surprise you anytime, and your life can also take unexpected turns. So again, you know, you can grow up maybe with the idea that that will be your. That your, you know, your dream career, and that's what you really want to do. But then you. You find something else along the way, and it's okay to change your mind. It's okay to try other things. And, you know, I think that that's the best way to. That's the best way to live. Really. Like, to be. To be honest. Yeah. With yourself and open with the opportunities. And also, you know, just the things that life, like, kind of literally throw throws at you. Like, it's like, okay, I. I found birds when I was miserable. Yeah. They literally saved me. So I said, okay, this is. This is too big. Like, this is. This is too big of a dream in my heart just to live it as a. As a dream. I want to live it.

A (45:48)

Good for you.

B (45:49)

So that's what I'm trying to do.

A (45:51)

I'm wishing you the best.

B (45:53)

Thank you.

A (45:55)

Yeah. Thank you. I have one last question about this sort of going in. All in on the job part of this. Did you think about this much during your deliberation of, like, trying to make this decision of. Did you have much fear of the. The job aspect of it taking away from the fun and the passion and the joy of bird photography?

B (46:19)

So it wasn't that. It wasn't that big of an. Let's say, an issue for me, because partially is something that I was already experiencing in the sense that although it wasn't, you know, I wasn't doing professionally, I already feel that by doing content creation, I was already kind of. Let's say there was already kind of

A (46:44)

influence work side of it. Yeah.

B (46:46)

Yeah, the photography. So I think that in that case, it wasn't that. Yeah, it wasn't that huge of an issue, let's say. But I recognize that, you know, sometimes now, you know, I'm in a place where there are especially some periods of time where I'm like, maybe prioritizing the work side of things. Yeah. Not doing as much as I wanted of, you know, just also the random walks that, you know, are also so important for me and for my mental health when I just go out and I literally just, you know, bird watch. I don't even bring my camera, literally. So that sometimes can be. Can be a struggle. But Again, I'm very. I try to be really careful in balancing everything out because, you know, if. Also something. Something else that I learned, like, say, from my previous life and my previous experience, is that I want to, you know, make sure that I take care of myself and my mental health. So I try to prioritize as much as I can. Those that are, let's say, the precious moments where I can just recharge and just do things just for. Just for the sake of it. Just because I find them exciting.

A (48:05)

No, absolutely. Yeah. No, I totally get that. Yeah. I just went through, like, a few. Like, a couple months. A couple months ago, I went through a period of where I was just, like, I was so focused on work and these projects I was trying to get done and everything, and I really did. At the end of, like, a couple months, I was noticing, like, I'm just becoming miserable. Like, I'm. I'm not happy right now. And, like. And it's still. You know, I'm still working as a bird photographer, a wildlife photographer. I should be like, everything should be amazing, right? But it was just, like, I got so in on the work, and I wasn't doing the other things that bring me joy, like mountain biking and hiking and just, like, these other outdoor activities that are separate from the photography. And it's so funny to me because I. I've learned this. I've. I've known this. I. I've run my own business for myself for almost 20 years, and I've learned it. But I still can fall into the trap of thinking that when I have a lot to do, that all I have to do is work, you know, and it's just like, oh, I just got to sit down and work and get this done. But the reality is, every single time I stop doing these other things that I feel like in the moment are taking time away from the work, I become less efficient, and I'm not as good, and I'm not in a good mental place, and the work, it becomes harder, you know, and it's. It's sort of counterintuitive that, like, if I take the time to go do these other activities away from work, that I. I'd be better at my job. It doesn't seem like it makes sense, but that is the reality. And I kind of, like. I kind of learned it again and was able to just. I got through most of the stuff and then was able to get back to these activities, and as soon as I did, I just instantly felt better, and then I was still doing work and getting things done, it's just like, it's such a reminder of like, Ray, just don't get caught up in working too much because it's not good. It really isn't.

B (49:56)

Yeah, yeah, no, so true. Thanks for sharing that. Like, that's so true. I think that, you know, we also have just to be kind to ourselves. Like, you know, sometimes we. We know things, we know how we are supposed to, you know, we would be supposed to allocate time. But then, as you mentioned, it's so easy and, you know, it happens for someone who does photography. But I think that, you know, literally for everyone, there will be periods where maybe kind of you. You forgot. Forget those other sides. But again, they are so, so important. So, yes, again, so critical to really find time also to nurture the other, you know, activities or areas of. Of our lives to have a fuller life at the end.

A (50:38)

Yeah, yeah, totally. All right. So, Kiara, all right. What is next for you? What's coming up for pushing your own personal photography? What are you hoping. Hoping to work on? What direction are you heading with to get more creative in the coming year?

B (50:54)

Well, such a good question. Like, I actually still have to write down my goals because that's something that I actually do. Like, I'm one of those person of like, sit down and, you know, I also do lots of journaling, so I still have to do that for next year. But just thinking about it, I think that something that I really want to do more next year is some more conservation photography. So it's not much on the creative side of things, but it's definitely something that I really want to incorporate more because, you know, as someone with a background in science, I'm also by training, I'm a veterinarian, so.

A (51:40)

Oh, okay.

B (51:41)

I would really like to come kind of bring back a bit of, you know, the scientist in me. And I feel that, you know, conservation photography could be like, in the sense that, you know, trying to use my photography to convey a specific, you know, scientifically grounded message. So I did a bit of that, like, experimented with that this year, like with the Kentish plovers, which are endangered here in Italy. So I was lucky enough to kind of document a conservation project happening like in the. In the region where I'm originally from. And I found that, you know, really exciting, like being in the field taking photos, but at the same time, you know, being with ornithologists and, you know, also collecting data. So it was just great. So it was like, you know, bringing back a bit of the. Also of that part, that is still part of me, right? It's not that, you know, again, as we were just mentioning, it's just something that, you know, we just discarded completely. So. So I think that it would be nice to bring more kind of conservation photography and something else that I also really. This is something that I started already a while ago, but I always say that I should practice that more. This is more on the creative side. But I'm really, really fascinated by intentional camera movement techniques.

A (53:04)

Oh, nice. Yeah, that's fun.

B (53:06)

It is something that. I don't know. Like, I remember the first time that I found a photo on Instagram. I was like, this is. This is so cool. Like, it's so dreamy, you know, it reminds me more like a painting. So to me it feels like more like, you know, a combination of, you know, different artistic expressions. So, you know, it's something that I had been fun with, which is also really important for me because again, you know, yeah, we do birth photography, but then I also started doing these just more as, let's say, the type of photography that I do just for myself and just for the enjoyment. Also knowing that I'm not doing it really right at the moment at least.

A (53:50)

I mean, that's part of the fun is learning all this.

B (53:53)

I'm really learning. So, you know, I'm really having fun with it. So I think that, you know, I want to continue with that because I find it really nice as a way of experimentation with photography. So, yeah, those would be my, maybe my two goals for next year. And what about you? If I can ask. Ask.

A (54:14)

Oh, yeah. For me, I think it's going to be more with the underwater housing doing like the split level shots, but.

B (54:23)

Okay.

A (54:24)

The problem with that is it's so location dependent and it's just tough, you know, like right now I'm in the middle of the desert. Well, that's not happening. There's no water anywhere around, you know, so I've only really encountered a handful of locations in all of my travels that have really worked for it. So, you know, that's something I definitely want to play more with, but I just need to be in the right place for that. And outside of that, I don't know. You know, I'm with you. I do love the sense of movement with. With images. It's certainly something I've played around a lot with. I think really what I want to try and do is a little bit more of the. Using Nikon has this auto capture which basically turns the camera into like a camera Trap, you know. So I think I want to try and do more of that and not like long term camera trapping, but more just, you know, like I go to a place and find some cooperative wildlife and set the camera in like, you know, a couple of day kind of project, stuff like that. So that I definitely have more interest in doing. But I don't know, the, the last time I did sort of wide angle remote photography was with my DSLRs back in the day and I would just sit there with a remote trigger and press. The part of the problem that always happened for me is the camera wasn't in my hand. And so it was like once I, once I left the camera there, all creative decisions were done. You know, like I did everything I could in deciding composition and. Yeah, yeah, trying to anticipate exposure and all that sort of stuff and anticipating where the wildlife might go, but then it's kind of up to the wildlife to do it. And there's something kind of fun about that. But it always felt like a little bit of a disconnect for me because I just love having the camera in my hand and making those decisions myself in the moment. Like, oh, the birds here and it faced this way and I want to compose this way and kind of thing. So I don't know, we'll see. I'll play with it more and see if I like it.

B (56:28)

That's an interesting, like, it's an interesting thought. Like I never, you know, I never tried that but I also kind of now that you were, you know, sharing your, your kind of experience with that, I think that I would really also kind of feel the same, same like in the sense that, you know, when you kind of leave your like as photographers, like the camera is your tool and you know, even the thought of it, like, okay, it's like you're pushing away like your tool. I don't know, like in that.

A (56:55)

Right?

B (56:56)

It's. Yeah, it's a disconnect for sure. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with that. But no, that's very interesting. So you will be busy and I have to say that I look forward to, you know, seeing more of your results. And actually Ray, I also wanted to tell you because I haven't had the chance yet that I think that you are literally one of the first birth photographers that I literally followed on Instagram.

A (57:21)

Oh, really?

B (57:21)

Like, oh, that's wild. Yes, I, you know, when, when you, when you contacted me, like I, I, you know, I was honest when I say, okay, I'm super happy because I've been A fan of you for so long, literally.

A (57:32)

Thank you so much.

B (57:33)

I just to prove that before, before our call, I went back to Instagram, you know, that you. I don't think that there's a actually know when you started following someone, but you can, you can kind of sort the people you follow by date. So I can, I can definitely tell you that you are among the very first people that I followed on Instagram.

A (57:57)

I wonder how you stumbled upon me, though. That's funny.

B (58:00)

Sorry.

A (58:00)

I wonder how, like, my photography came into your Instagram. You know what I mean?

B (58:05)

Like, I wonder how those were. Those were the days of hashtags, honestly.

A (58:09)

Yeah, when they matter.

B (58:11)

It was 2021, early 2022, because, yeah, I started my Instagram in November 2021, so it must have happened, you know, maximum in 2022. So hashtags were still a thing back then. So I guess that I was just looking for hashtag birth photography and, you know, your, your photos, your. Your account came up and I followed you. So I feel that, yeah, definitely, you are one of the, you know, the first birth photographer that I followed. And I was work. And I kept being inspired by your work throughout these years, honestly. So I'm really, you know, I'm really excited to be here with you.

A (58:52)

Oh, yes, yes. This is wonderful then. Yeah, what a cool, like, full circle to have you come on the show. Yes, yes, that is really cool. Well, thank you so much. And I am really looking forward to seeing what you continue to create and what you continue to share and teach. And I do, I wish you all, all the best in your path going forward, wherever that may lead you. But it seems like I'm pretty confident in saying I think you're going to do just fine because it seems like you really connect with an audience and that's a wonderful thing as well, isn't it?

B (59:26)

Yeah, no, absolutely. At the end of the day, I think that we use photography to connect with the subjects and the places and nature, but then photography is also, also in a form of art that can connect to connect us to other people. So that's also the beauty of it. And, you know, for as much as, you know, social media have their issues, and I'm not totally happy with, you know, some things associated with social media. You know, they. They've also been great in the sense of giving me the chance of creating this connection with people, but also just, you know, for example, finding you and, you know, in those early days, having photographers like you to, to look at was absolutely amazing because I was Inspired so much and you know, that kept me going and kept trying and you know, at the end then, you know, I started taking photos and started posting them and I hope that this goes, you know, almost like a snowball effect. And yes, more and more people will get into bird photography and more and more people will understand how amazing birds are and how much we need to, to protect birds.

A (60:39)

Absolutely.

B (60:39)

So yeah, that's, that, that, that's amazing. So obviously my best wishes also to you, Ray. You know my, in my case I would just tell you, just continue to do what you're doing because that's the plan. It's obviously, it's obviously working.

A (60:56)

Yes, that is the plan. That certainly is the plan. Well, so the last thing, where is the best place for other photographers to follow you to be able to learn and be inspired?

B (61:06)

Yes. So the best place is still Instagram right now. So you can find me as Chiaratalia underscore birds because yeah, we love birds. Right. And, but very recently I got kind of restarted with my YouTube channel so I'm getting back into more long form video content because you know, I felt that Instagram was a bit, bit restricting me let's say with, with the short form. And yeah, I, I feel that I want to go back to YouTube so I've actually already restarted so you can also find me on YouTube as Chiaratalia underscore wild. Maybe I should have also just put there birds now, now it's too late.

A (61:52)

Maybe it's going to expand beyond, beyond birds. You never know where you're gonna go. Right?

B (61:56)

Yes. So let's keep it broad. Let's keep it broad for YouTube.

A (62:00)

Next thing you know you'll have Kiata Italian macro.

B (62:06)

I honestly, I don't think it's going to happen, Ray. I tried already that lens and I mean I was terrible at it. I'm not sure that that's going to work.

A (62:14)

Oh, that's so funny. What macro lens did you get?

B (62:18)

An Iowa.

A (62:20)

Oh yeah. What focal.

B (62:21)

Yes, I, you know, like I'm really a terrible macro photographer. I don't even know the lens.

A (62:29)

Yeah, yeah, no, I was just wondering.

B (62:31)

I can't remember. I really can't remember.

A (62:33)

I don't blame you. Yeah, I got, I got so much gear sitting up here too. I forget what I have half the time.

B (62:38)

I really can't remember. Like it's supposed to be a nice macro lens, but there you go. Apparently having a nice macro lens doesn't instantly you making you take not just gear, you mean? No, that was shocking for me. I was. Well, this is a good macro lens. Why are my photos not turning out?

A (62:57)

That's so funny.

B (62:58)

Why am I not even focusing right?

A (63:00)

Yeah, yeah, it is. It is a whole other world, that's for sure.

B (63:04)

Yes, yes.

A (63:06)

Kiara, thank you so much.

B (63:08)

No, thank you to you for having me on the show. That was really, really great to chat with you. So thank you. It was really a great, great conversation.

A (63:17)

Same here and I wish you the best. Hey, this is Ray Hennessy. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something from helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode. Please subscribe on your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.