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- [00:00]
A
Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Wildlife Photo Chat. I know there's been a little bit of break in episodes. I've been kind of crazy busy, which is weird because it's my time off, but so excited to have back on the show. Aaron. Todd. Aaron. How's it going?
- [00:14]
B
It's going great. I'm really happy to be back, Ray. I've been looking forward to chatting with you.
- [00:19]
A
Yeah, same here. Same here. It's so funny. I love doing these shows and the episodes and whenever the conversation starts happening, it's always a great time. But it's like that off stuff in between where I'm like, all right, I got to figure out a guest, I got to get them scheduled. Got to figure out some free time and all that. And it's so easy to just let that slide, you know that sometimes I end up with these sort of gaps in the recording schedule. But anyway, we're here and we got lots to talk about, don't we?
- [00:46]
B
Yeah. And I'm glad you persevered because I do think we have lots to talk about. And both times you've had me on, we've had some technical issues, but we've been able to work it out.
- [00:56]
A
Yeah. And that's the other part. Right. There's always something it feels like I've been doing. I mean, I don't even know what number episode this is, you know, hundreds of episodes. And I still haven't fully figured it out yet, apparently, but I still keep getting these things out, so that's good. Yeah. So what have you been up to lately? What have you been shooting?
- [01:27]
B
Well, you know, for me, it's always ducks. Ducks are my passion. Right now when we're recording this, everything is frozen solid. So all the wetlands, ponds and lakes that I would usually like to visit for waterfowl are all frozen over.
- [01:43]
A
Yeah.
- [01:44]
B
So for me, from my home, it's about an hour's drive south to get down to Lake Ontario, where there's pockets of open water on the lake itself. And then many of the rivers that feed into the lake are also open. And it's actually a wonderful time to find congregation. So some really cool ducks that we don't usually get to see. So you get all the arctic ducks, the scoters and the long tails and all those things hanging around. So, yeah, this I actually, of all the seasons, I prefer winter photography the most, to be honest. And winter duck photography is the best.
- [02:26]
A
Yeah, that is cool. And we're definitely going to talk more about how you approach that later, but I Think it's. It's really interesting when stuff like this happens, right, where you have a place that's closer, that you're more familiar with maybe, and is easier access. And then conditions change, whatever the may be. In this case, things freezing over and it forces you either a. Some people just kind of throw their hands up in the air and stop shooting, but someone like yourself is like, no, I'm going to find somewhere else to go. And then it forces you out further. But is there. So I guess my question is, is that fun when that happens? Do you enjoy getting pushed to these locations that maybe you wouldn't go to as much otherwise? Or is it kind of annoying that you're like, I got to drive a whole hour and I got to do more work and effort and that kind of stuff?
- [03:18]
B
Oh, no, I'll drive anywhere for the opportunity. And yeah, I'll get up as early as I have to, stay up as late as I have to. It's one of the things I look forward most to in life are these opportunities to get out, getting to learn new places, their rhythms, what kinds of wildlife show up there, what kind of backgrounds. I mean, it's all part of the fun for me. This isn't my job. It's a hobby, and I wouldn't do it unless it was a ton of fun.
- [03:51]
A
Yeah, absolutely, man. No, I. I appreciate that too, because sometimes that extra effort, you know, it just feels nice to persevere and the unexpected stuff happens then, right. If you're always just going to the. The local spot where you have everything dialed in and. And you kind of know what to expect. Not that unexpected things can't happen, but they're less likely to happen, I would say. Would you agree?
- [04:15]
B
Yeah, and I think. I'm not sure if you aspire to this as well, Ray, but I think sometimes the harder you have to work and the more severe the conditions, the better the photos. And I'm not sure whether it's just a feeling of satisfaction from having earned it, or I think there's some of that perseverance and stick to itiveness that shows in the photos themselves. Because those conditions, whether it's super windy or miserable or cold, that shows in the photos in either overt or subtle ways, and they just look better to me.
- [04:58]
A
Yeah, no, I definitely get that. I think for myself, there's two sides to that. One is, I always wonder, does it really show through sometimes, or is it just I want it to, or I can't disconnect the feeling of the challenge that I had to, you know, surmount to be able to capture these photos. And does the public really get that? But I think the answer is sometimes. I think it's not always, but I think sometimes, like you said, it does show in the photos. No matter if the viewer is really getting the full background story or not, I think they can tell sometimes.
- [05:37]
B
I think, yeah, it's baked into the picture. There's just little elements that are evident in the picture that make it unique from others that may have been easier to get. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. And I like to think that we're rewarded for making the effort. I don't know.
- [05:57]
A
That's what I mean. I do really think in my own stuff it is the case absolutely sometimes. And then other times I think it is a little bit of wishful think, or not even just wishful thinking of just. It's more satisfying to me. Right. It's more meaningful, maybe because of all the hardships I had to go through and the difficulty and the challenging conditions or whatever. But here's the other flip side or the other, not even a flip side, but the other thing that has been running through my mind lately is the longer I've been doing this, in some aspects, I see myself getting lazier and more opportunistic, and then I start questioning. I definitely have. I mean, at least a couple times a year in my mind, in just moments of quiet thought or just looking at photos and thinking about my photography and where it's going and where it's evolving, I think to myself, have I lost my edge, to really push myself? You know, have I lost that. That strength, that desire to kind of really push through and put myself in those hard scenarios and stuff like that? Because my lifestyle has afforded me the opportunity to be really opportunistic and be very picky because of that. It's kind of like, well, I know maybe next week I'm going to be in some stunning location with some beautiful stuff. So it's like, why would I put in all the hard work and effort right now where it might not pay off? Or I don't see the potential there. But then something comes along and I see the potential, and then I find myself going all in and I. And I'm. I'm grateful. I'm like, okay, I still got it. It's still there, you know, But I'm like, I worry that I'm gonna lose it, you know, at some point I probably will. Yeah.
- [07:42]
B
What you're saying resonates with Me too. I mean, it's just part of being human, these ebbs and flows, I think. But I can definitely say, you know, if I was planning to go out this weekend, which I am, and I'm looking at the forecast and I see, oh, it's gonna be really. So probably not going to get very good light. It's supposed to be a mix of freezing rain and snow. That's going to be miserable. It's going to be really windy, so it's going to be super challenging in the floating hide. Maybe I should just sleep in. And then I know, I know that when I sleep in and I wake up, if there's a hint of color in the sky.
- [08:24]
A
Absolutely.
- [08:25]
B
Or if they got the forecast just slightly wrong and the winds might have been okay, which they never do. Yeah, I know. I'll be so disappointed with myself because I'm not getting amazing shots on every outing. It's, of course, yeah, it's repeated effort, and every once in a while all the circumstances click and you get that day where you get like a couple dozen great shots and you're really happy with it, but you had to put in five or six other days to get there. And so that day I sleep in, I don't want to be the day that those opportunities were missed. And that's what keeps getting me up and out to do it, is not wanting to miss that opportunity that I could have had, had. I just found a little bit more motivation. And believe me, to get in the water when it's minus 15 and. And do the things I'm doing sometimes after a week of work takes a lot of motivation.
- [09:37]
A
Absolutely.
- [09:37]
B
To get myself ramped up to do it.
- [09:40]
A
Absolutely. No, for. Absolutely. For sure. I definitely recognize that. And then I also recognize for myself, I'm very, you know, lucky. Privileged, whatever word you want to use, to be able to live the way I do. And then this is my job. And so I have to balance not totally burning myself out on it. Right. Because there's, There's. I would say, you know, I don't know, probably 300 days out of the 365 days a year, I'm parked in a place where I could just walk outside and probably go find something. And if I did that every single day, every single morning, all the time, I would get so burnt out, I would just be fried. And I wouldn't have the desire. I'd lose the desire. And I've. I've come close to doing that sometimes where I've just gone so hard and so Much. And it's just kind of like, whoa, all right, you got to back off, Ray. And I get that most people don't have that much opportunity to do this, and so it's maybe a little bit of a different vantage point that I have.
- [10:41]
B
You know, I think that is pretty unique, the situation you're in, Ray. And for me, it's more about trying to find and plan those opportunities to get out. And, you know, sitting here at. At work, thinking about, dreaming about when the next time I can get out or.
- [11:06]
A
Yeah.
- [11:06]
B
Or even worse, watching a beautiful morning.
- [11:10]
A
Yeah.
- [11:10]
B
Sunrise, perfect conditions, and thinking, oh, I wish I was out there. I'm. I'm missing opportunities. So there's. I think we're on different ends of that spectrum, but I certainly can empathize with what you're. Understand what you're saying and that if you. If you just go too hard, then it's not special. It become. It would almost become like a job where you feel obligated to have to do it and you never want it to get to that point. It's just way too much fun to ruin.
- [11:45]
A
Exactly, exactly. You know, and it's funny, when I first started this, it was kind of like, you know, in my mind. And I think I. I'm sure almost everybody listening can relate, which is that sounds like the dream, just going out and having every day to go do photography. And then when the reality hit of actually doing that, it's kind of like, oh, yeah, you're right. It just. It starts to become work. And, yeah, sure, this is my job. This is my quote unquote work. But when I balance things properly, it's all still fun, you know, I've never woken up and gone, oh, gosh, I gotta go out and shoot today. You know, because if that's happening, then I think something's gotta change. Because that's not the attitude I want to have in order to be able to do this. And I'm not saying that. That I've never woken up in the past, you know, four years and felt like that once. I'm sure it's happened, but for the most part, I still wake up excited. I still wake up and feel it. And if. And if I don't, I just don't go. That's kind of. It's kind of that simple for me, you know, because I know again, I'm lucky enough to have this scenario where tomorrow, the next day, whenever I'm going to get another chance, you know, But I really admire photographers like yourself that have the limited time and the challenging conditions and really push through and persevere and put yourself out there to do that, man. Because. And in the end I can say from my perspective as a viewer, it really does show in the photos. I see it. I see that. The effort and everything in your photos. Absolutely.
- [13:16]
B
That's such a nice compliment, Ray. Thanks.
- [13:19]
A
Yeah, well, because I've been there, I know what it takes. I've done some of this style of shooting that you've done. I'm like, yeah, that's not easy. It is not easy. But, but just like you said, I've also been there and damn, it's fun, isn't is?
- [13:33]
B
And this is why I look forward to talking with you. Because for most people in my regular sphere of friends and co workers and family, they think it's a little nutty what I'm doing. It doesn't, it doesn't make sense to them that you would get up hours before the sun and, and put on layers of extremely warm clothing to hike sometimes to get to a place and then put yourself in icy cold water and spend hours and most of the time have a smile on your face.
- [14:16]
A
Absolutely.
- [14:16]
B
And then come back and try to relate that to somebody who doesn't understand or enjoy the same things. And they do see it as a little outside of the realm of normal, for sure.
- [14:30]
A
Yeah. I think there's two interesting pieces to that as well, Aaron. I think there's the one piece which is. I think there's a certain personality trait in individuals that will find joy in pushing through that sort of discomfort and the challenge and everything and, and you obviously have it. And I feel like I have it to an extent and we all have it to our, I think, different levels. But I think there are, it is a personality trait because I think there are some people, wildlife photographers included and not wildlife photographers that if put in the scenario would just be like, this is miserable. I'm not enjoying this. Wouldn't you agree?
- [15:09]
B
Yeah, I'm sure most, for most rational people that would be the logical interpretation. But I, I don't, I don't even notice sometimes that, I mean, I've got the very best warm gear that I can afford and I'm using hand warmers and toe warmers and body warmers and all these things. But you're fingers and toes still do get cold and I do sometimes end up shivering. But you don't. If things are even half decent in terms of there's a few birds around and the lights half decent and there's some shots to be created. I don't notice the cold. I don't notice the adversity, and I don't notice how hard I've worked or how far I've traveled.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah.
- [15:56]
B
Sometimes until maybe the sun gets too high and the light's blown out and you realize, okay, it's probably time to pack up and go home. Oh, damn, I'm frozen.
- [16:08]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [16:09]
B
And it's. It's a long way back to the car and I gotta lug all this stuff and, you know, why didn't I leave half an hour ago?
- [16:17]
A
Oh, that's so funny, man.
- [16:19]
B
But you just. You're in the zone where you're just totally immersed and enjoying it and.
- [16:24]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [16:25]
B
I recognize it's not for everybody, but I. I think for everyone, when they find their thing, and this is my thing that makes you happy, then, yeah, go for it.
- [16:35]
A
Yeah. I think the other part of it, I was saying there was two pieces to this. I think the other piece of it is people haven't experienced it. And until you do, I think for a lot of people, you can't wrap your head around how amazing it is. Especially, and I'll just say this. Let's take away, you know, the. The sort of extreme nature of your approach to waterfowl photography, and we're going to talk about that in just a minute, of how you're getting in the freezing water and everything here. And let's just say going out at sunrise. You know, I can't tell you how many people I've talked to that I think have just never even experienced a sunrise. And I think so many people just think, you know, flippantly, oh, it's. What's the difference between sunrise and sunset? And I feel like there's such a massive difference to the start of a day versus the end of a day. And I'll share this quick story. Emily has a good friend she just met outside of photography, and this person grew up in the city just their entire lives, you know, I think, I don't know, you know, roughly 30 years old, we'll say around there, grew up in the city their entire lives. Have never really done a lot of outdoor activities and gone out in nature. And they joined us not too long ago for a little bit of time in our travels because we. Emily was sharing how, you know, how amazing it is, and this person wanted to experience it. And they came out and started experiencing some of these sunrises with us and like a sunrise hike out in these beautiful places where you get to see the pastel tones and the day start, and they were like, it just completely blew their mind. It was so amazing to watch this happen and see the expression and the sort of, oh, my gosh, this is what it's like, I never knew kind of experience. And I think that's a big part of it as well, Aaron. Which is so many people, wildlife photographers included, haven't experienced this kind of stuff and maybe don't even know how amazing it is until they do.
- [18:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, that resonates with me. And I. For me, I mean, I know some photographers, bird photographers, who prefer late afternoon, evening shoots, but for me, it's morning. Morning is the time. There's a few reasons for that. One is the subjects that I'm pursuing. Waterfowl are really spooky, really jittery. And especially when they're this time of year, when they're packed into these tight spaces that are ice free, you can get hundreds and sometimes thousands of birds in smaller spaces. And so all it takes is for a couple of those birds to get jittery and spooked.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah.
- [19:20]
B
And then all the rest of the are like, oh, hey, something's going on here. It's time to get out. And your whole shoot's ruined because all the birds are gone. So for me, being able to get up really early, get out there in the dark, get completely set up in these spots so that when there's even any hint of light, I'm part of the environment. And the other thing that I love, in addition to the beautiful colors that you talked about, is lower wind. I tend to get lower winds in the morning. And if you want to work with reflections on the water, or if you want to work from a floating hide, which a lot of times I like to do, even small amounts of wind can be very technically challenging to keep the camera steady. And so I have some spots that would probably set up great in the afternoon in terms of light, but there's just. It's too hard to get into those places without scaring all the birds on your way in. And the winds are probably too difficult to deal with by late afternoon, evening.
- [20:36]
A
Yeah, totally get that. That makes a lot of sense and has definitely been my experience with that kind of stuff. So originally I was planning on talking about your use of the floating hide and everything a little bit later on in today's episod. But I think it's a perfect time right now, just because we're talking.
- [20:51]
B
I've messed up your schedule.
- [20:53]
A
I don't ever really have a schedule, so it's Completely fine. Sure. But I think, yeah, it's a perfect time to talk about it. And my first question is, I know we talked about your use of the floating hide a bit on the last time we had you on the show, which was, I mean, it was a while ago, wasn't it?
- [21:09]
B
Yeah, it was a little while ago.
- [21:11]
A
Yeah. But that fact of getting in that early with waterfowl, like in the complete dark and just like you said, being a part of the environment, once the light comes up, how long did it take you to figure that one out? Did you figure that one out pretty quickly or was that like a slow process to kind of figure that was the way to approach it? Because it took me a bit of time.
- [21:37]
B
You know, I don't think it takes that long to understand when you show up and you can see birds and they're spooking to your presence that, oh, I should have been here earlier because that's an opportunity I've probably blown. Had I been here 20 minutes or half an hour earlier, I could have stuck in here. Right. So. And it, I think it becomes even more important when you're working in smaller areas. Bigger areas you might find places you can sneak in and. Correct. But, but when you're in smaller areas where you're likely within sight of the birds you want to shoot, if you're showing up after they can see you, you're toast. Right. It's just not going to happen. There's no sneaking up on a duck.
- [22:26]
A
No.
- [22:26]
B
Although, although I am learning that to my surprise, even after we talked about this earlier this winter, I don't know whether that some of the birds I'm working with are getting conditioned to the hide because they've seen me a few times or maybe that I'm just there so early and it's part of their environment and they're just ignoring me.
- [22:50]
A
Yeah.
- [22:51]
B
But I am finding I'm having some success actually moving around in some of these small ice free places where I'm not spooking birds. They're, they're wild. Yeah. They're not shying away and they're behaving normally. And even last weekend I was really close to a group of northern shovelers and I could hear them in the dark, their little bills going along the surface as they're feeding. So I knew I couldn't see them yet, but I knew they were there. And so I had intended to go further, but I just stayed because I knew there were ducks around.
- [23:32]
A
Sure.
- [23:33]
B
And as I started to get some light then I could See them? And there was a group that was actually preening and sleeping right next to me. I could have. I could have moved 10ft to either side and poked one, and they were right there. And they allowed me to move around a little bit in the hide and try to set up different compositions in different backgrounds and. And they weren't spooking, so I'm not. Not sure. I can't explain that.
- [24:04]
A
But. Yeah, yeah, but you'll enjoy it.
- [24:08]
B
Absolutely. And I've had birds come right up. Up under the floats of the hide right next to me some mornings, like a. Like the little hooded mergansers. I had a. Last weekend I had a female come up right underneath the float and then bump out and go right in front of me and sort of look back like, what?
- [24:26]
A
What was that? So wild.
- [24:29]
B
And then continue on her way.
- [24:31]
A
Yeah.
- [24:32]
B
So, yeah, I don't know the answer, but I think this whole idea of you can't sneak up on a duck, I'm starting to rethink that. I think.
- [24:41]
A
There we go. Okay.
- [24:43]
B
I think sometimes maybe if you're in early and you're part of the environment and you're quiet and subtle and all the things you need to be, I think they just accept you and allow you to be. Move around in their environment. I've seen it happen.
- [24:57]
A
Yeah. No, that's really neat to hear. I also think it's so fascinating. I'm curious if this has been your experience. I think it's so neat that, you know, I've had these. These small pond areas where there's only a handful of them there. And when I walk in, in the complete cover of dark, you know, I'm. I'm still making noise, Right. I'm crunching on the ground and stuff like that. And they can hear me. And I know I can hear them kind of like subtly move away, but they'll never flush in the dark. I just never hear them take off as long as I don't come, you know, barging in and making a big racket, that would probably do the trick, but it's so neat that they'll just kind of like move away. They're unsure. Like they can hear something. They know something's up, but they can't see it and they won't leave. And then I stay there. And sure enough, by the time the sun, like the light's starting to happen, they've forgotten it and they've just moved right back into that space. Have you experienced that as well?
- [25:50]
B
Absolutely.
- [25:51]
A
Yeah.
- [25:52]
B
Yep. Yes, exactly. As you're describing, Ray. That's the experience. You know, they're there, they know something's up.
- [25:59]
A
Yep.
- [25:59]
B
But it's just they. They don't feel motivated in the dark to have to move. I think it's just ingrained to them it's safer just to move away than to completely try and relocate in the dark and so.
- [26:13]
A
Correct. Yeah.
- [26:14]
B
And then once you're settled in, they, they don't seem to have a long memory for that because they will go back to whatever they were doing once they figure out that there's no threat or once they perceive there's no threat there.
- [26:28]
A
But boy, what a difference in memory of if they see you walk in. Because, man, when I first started, I was like, oh, I'll just walk down, move slow. They'll the other side of the pond and I'll lay here and wait for them to come back. And it's like three hours later, they're finally just coming out of the edge, you know, Whereas if you go in in the dark, they hear you, they move away. But then, you know, yeah, 15, 20 minutes later, they're back in the same spot anyway because they never saw the threat and the sound just disappeared. It's like, what a different experience.
- [26:57]
B
Yeah.
- [26:58]
A
Yep.
- [26:59]
B
No, that's. That's happened to me so many times. And also other times where, you know, say I've got to a site and I was really looking forward to it, but I see there's another car there and I think, oh, I don't know whether I want to be risking going into a place where maybe somebody's paddling or. Sure, you know, they're doing something else. So I'll move off to another spot, but by the time I get to that other spot, it's just a little too late.
- [27:25]
A
Yep.
- [27:26]
B
And then you're moving in. If only I could have been here a little bit earlier because now that I'm here late, I'm going to try, but it's not. It's just not going to happen. I know.
- [27:35]
A
Yeah. Yeah, you can tell. Yeah. There's always like a distance barrier that's kept at that point, even if they don't completely leave. Yeah, for sure. The other thing I've noticed, and I'm wondering if this is maybe part of your experience with being able to move around is. So when I used to run workshops for hooded Merganser's, I had two main locations. One was surprisingly. I'm sure many people on the. That have been on the street follow this show long enough have heard me talk about this was at the condo I lived at. Very urban area. It was just like a drainage pond for the, you know, the, the little town, that part of it there. And I, I learned over the years that hooded mergansers would come in there every single day of the winter as long as it wasn't frozen over. And. But at most I would get, you know, five or six on a really good day, eight, ten birds in there. And boy, they were skittish. I mean, just so hard. I had to come just like you said, right. Bring everybody in really in the dark. I had to have. What I finally figured out was the best move was I built natural hides just from like dead branches and stuff because I could leave them there and they became, like you said, a permanent fixture part of the habitat. And then we would sit in behind that because when I would go in with my camo hide just draped over us, they could still tell something was up because they knew, I think they, they came there every day and they knew every inch of that shoreline, you know, because it was a tiny pond. And so those were kind of the really tough birds. And then I found another location a couple years in and man, I mean, Sometimes I'd have 50 to 60 hooded mergansers on that lake. And they were so much bolder. Like as a group, they would just come swimming right up to you shortly after you arrived. You know, like, it didn't, it just felt like stuff didn't matter as much. You could be a little bit more moving on the shoreline and change your position a little bit and they just sort of tolerate it. So it felt like there was sort of that safety in numbers thing that gave them a little bit more courage. And I'm wondering if that has maybe been part of your ability to kind of move and notice, you know, not scaring them. Do you, do you connect it to the number of birds at all or. Not really, I hadn't.
- [29:51]
B
And I'm listening to you and processing what you're saying. And it hadn't occurred to me until just now that that's got to be a factor. Okay. And that there, there must be safety or some comfort in the numbers of birds in this small area that I'm working. And. Yeah, so I think that can also be a double edged sword though.
- [30:15]
A
Absolutely.
- [30:16]
B
Those, that means there's more sets of eyes on you and more opportunities for them to alert each other, sound the alarm and, and bolt. So. But yeah, I think even a couple weeks ago, having sitting in the, in the hide, this, this was been In January, I think, and on a really cold morning and a blue heron came and landed behind me and that. I've never had that happen working in the hide because usually they're really, really wary.
- [30:49]
A
Yeah.
- [30:50]
B
And so I thought what a fantastic opportunity for confidence for the other birds.
- [30:55]
A
Sure.
- [30:55]
B
To see that this heron has thought, it's safe to be here. And so I just hung out near the heron and as I think there was a positive impact of having the heron there and the confidence of the other birds thinking, well, if it's safe for the heron, it's probably safe for me.
- [31:12]
A
Totally.
- [31:12]
B
Yeah.
- [31:13]
A
That's cool.
- [31:14]
B
Yeah. I think there's something to that. What you're saying, Ray, is that if there's some birds around and they're showing behaviors indicative of being comfortable. No, they're preening. Or for these shovelers or even the mergansers, they'll. They'll hop up on a stick and they'll pre.
- [31:32]
A
Oh, nice. Yeah.
- [31:33]
B
Or they'll dip their bill in the water and throw some water on their back and then pre their feathers. Or sometimes they'll. Even when they're floating around, they'll put their head back and. And close their eyes for five seconds, then open and then close their eyes for another. So you can tell there's a comfort there in their situation. And I think the other birds see that and it. It sets the tone for the birds.
- [31:59]
A
Yeah. So, Aaron, with your floating hide, is this one you purchased? Is it one you made yourself?
- [32:05]
B
What style are you using? So purchased from a. It's. It's a commercial hide that I bought. It has two inflatable floats between a platform that you mount your camera on in the middle and then a little camouflage tent that goes over top. And then depending on what kind of photography I'm doing, I might make some modifications to it to suit whatever I'm using it for.
- [32:34]
A
Oh, such as?
- [32:37]
B
We're getting into the secrets now. So, for example, I love to use the. I'm constantly frustrated by not being able to get low enough in a kayak. And kayaks are fantastic for access and moving around.
- [32:54]
A
Yeah.
- [32:55]
B
But I'm. I'm trying to shoot through live view on the, you know, the back of the viewfinder on the. The camera or the screen.
- [33:05]
A
Correct.
- [33:06]
B
And trying to get capture focus. And I find that really challenging. And you can get some great shots that way.
- [33:13]
A
Yeah. It's like. Yeah.
- [33:15]
B
And I never feel. And I'm trying to hold the hand, hold the camera and pushing down on the side of like I have an Inflatable kayak, and I'm trying to push the side down so I can get the lens lower to the water, and I can never seem to get as low as I want to get. And so that's where the floating hide is great. But if you're in open water and you can't touch, it can be really tiring on your arms holding yourself up the whole time.
- [33:43]
A
Yeah.
- [33:44]
B
So I'll wear swim fins, and I put a little seat that I've made that'll hang under the pontoons. And so if nothing's happening, I can use it kind of like the. An angler might have those little belly boats where they paddle around with their fins. But that's sort of where I got the idea from.
- [34:06]
A
Gotcha.
- [34:07]
B
But in this case, I'm mostly under the water, but can still sit down and I can relax my arms and I can still move with my feet, and I can still see what's happening outside, but I'm not, you know, my. My eye isn't pressed to the viewfinder the whole time.
- [34:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, I gotcha. So that's. I'm glad you shared that because that was something I know we had discussed talking about. It's something kind of newer, I think, if.
- [34:33]
B
If.
- [34:34]
A
Correct me if I'm wrong, to your use of the floating hide, which is being in bigger, deeper water. Correct.
- [34:40]
B
Yes. Yes. Because when you start out.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah.
- [34:44]
B
Oh, sorry, Ray. You go ahead.
- [34:46]
A
No, I was just gonna say I've done it a few times, and. Damn, it's hard. So. Yeah, I'd love to hear your progression with that. Like you were saying, when you start out.
- [34:53]
B
Yeah. You find that you're. As soon as you stop moving, you're. You're buoyant. So your feet want to either float up in front of you or they want to float up behind you, which can make it very difficult to stay. Keep your lens and your focus on the subject. So you have to find ways when you're doing that to either. Sometimes I just allow my feet to float up in front of me. So I just commit to the fact that. Okay, I'm now free floating.
- [35:28]
A
Yeah.
- [35:29]
B
And I'm using my arms and strength to the extent that I can just to keep the. The camera focused and on the subject and using little subtle movements of your feet to. To orient yourself. Yeah, but it can be. I find sometimes if you can sit down in something, there must be something to the physics where you're pushing down into something that helps to stabilize you, I guess. More points of contact where. If I can push down into a seat, force my arms onto the sides of the pontoons, and my face into the viewfinder. Then I've got enough points of contact to kind of stabilize myself. But I don't want anyone to get the impression that this is easy. I blow a ton of shots. It's very frustrating. And if there's any wind at all, I'll come home with a bruise on my brow from having shoved my face into the camera. Trying to hold things steady. It can be really, really challenging. But if that's the only way to access birds in an area and no one else is doing it, you're going for it. There's an opportunity there.
- [36:45]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I'm curious, what's the main lens you shoot? What's the average focal length you're shooting in this setup?
- [36:55]
B
So I know you have the lovely 402.8, the newest version. I have the older 10 and a half pound version of the 402.8, which I bought used.
- [37:11]
A
Okay.
- [37:12]
B
And it's a tank. It's really heavy. But there's no substitute for that 2.8 when it comes to shooting early. It just gives me so much more creative latitude, having those extra stops of light.
- [37:32]
A
No doubt. But the reason I bring it up is. All right, so here's the other thing I think nobody understands until you are in a floating hide is at 400 millimeter, 500 millimeter, 600 millimeter, any of these longer telephoto lengths, it takes the tiniest ripple in the water to start bouncing that hide around and making it challenging to, you know, find your subject, stay on your subject and lock in and shoot them. Right.
- [38:01]
B
It's funny, if you look at. If I'm shooting a burst, say, of a long tailed duck in some waves, the first photo that the duck will be in the bottom of the frame and then you'll see it, it'll move up to the top of the frame, and sometimes it even goes out of the frame or disappears behind a wave. And then as the wave comes down, I can grab focus and then shoot another burst again. So you're, you're shooting so many. Wasted. Well, not waste. That's not the right. But you're burning a lot of photos.
- [38:34]
A
Yeah.
- [38:35]
B
Knowing that you're trying to get that one in this series where you've got the composition you had envisioned and all the rest are just trying to cope with the elements.
- [38:44]
A
No, no, definitely. Yeah, yeah. I just remember the first time I ever went in to a place that had a little Bit of just tiny, tiny little ripples on the surface from the wind. I was like, oh, this will be fine. I get out there and I mean, it. Looking through the viewfinder, it was like there was an earthquake going on. You know, it's just bouncing all over the place. I was just like, oh. And then logically, it all makes sense. I'm like, yes, of course. Every little movement is amplified and magnified by the focal length I'm shooting here. And so, yeah, it's bouncing all over the place. But it just. It. It made me laugh in hindsight, how little it took to bounce that sucker around, you know, because it's all, as the name implies, floating.
- [39:23]
B
Yeah. And it. But the. Yeah. So what you're saying makes so much sense for anyone who's considering trying it. The longer the lens, the longer the reach, the harder it is to keep your subject in the frame and in focus. There's a lot of focus. There's a lot of little bumps where you just lose focus. Your camera starts focus hunting.
- [39:44]
A
Yeah.
- [39:45]
B
And you're. It's gymnastics already, trying to maneuver yourself in the hide. And it can get. Get really frustrating. So for me, the. The focal length that I've settled on is 400, which gives me enough reach. Absolutely.
- [40:00]
A
Seems sweet.
- [40:01]
B
It's. It's not too. And the benefit of the hide is you can get close.
- [40:06]
A
Yeah.
- [40:07]
B
If you. If you work on your field craft and you get there early and you're not moving around quickly and doing everything right, you should be able to get close.
- [40:17]
A
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And it's just so fun. It's just so fun. It's so fun being in the water. And then if you are in a good spot where feet are on the ground, especially if you get, like, the right depth where you kind of don't have to be crouching, you're almost fully standing upright, and your legs are just touching the bottom and your. Your buoyancy is just right, and then it's completely calm. I mean, it's about the easiest way ever to shoot a long telephoto lens. It's just. You can turn the whole thing with a pinky. It just moves everywhere you want so smoothly. It goes from this incredibly challenging situation when there's a little bit of wind and movement, to one of the nicest ways to ever photograph something, because you're shooting water level and you're sitting upright and you're not bent and your neck isn't all weird, and your eyes in the viewfinder, I'm like, this is an absolute Joy.
- [41:10]
B
Oh, right on, Ray. That's this. That's where my journey with the floating hide started, was a spot that I had that was beautiful for these blue winged teals. And they would be in this shallow little area. And there was. There was no way to shoot it unless I laid down in the shallow water, which was not comfortable.
- [41:32]
A
Yeah.
- [41:33]
B
And I could only compose so many frames. Like, there was only so many competition compositions available to you when you were stationary. Because I was shooting through weeds and.
- [41:48]
A
Gotcha.
- [41:48]
B
You could only move your body so much before you could be detected moving around trying to get the camera in the right position.
- [41:55]
A
Sure.
- [41:55]
B
In the floating hide, it's so easy to just turn and move and compose if. If you're in the right condition. Sometimes you're in places where you're. You're only in, you know, a couple feet of water and your knees are.
- [42:13]
A
It's all awkward and weird. Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [42:16]
B
Put your eye down to the viewfinder.
- [42:18]
A
Totally. I find myself laying prone in the hide in super shallow water. You know, I've been in that area. Yeah.
- [42:26]
B
A couple weeks ago, it was way windier than I thought it was going to be. And so I had to swim across this river to get to the far shore so I could get the compositions I wanted. There was a ship that was anchored at the mouth of this open river. And at night it would have all its lights on. And so it made this beautiful red background, which is great contrast for things like snow. And if you get there early enough with all the lights on, they would sparkle on the water with that nice dark background. But to get to it, I had to swim in the hide to get to the other side. And when I got there, it was so windy that I ended up laying sideways like you're talking about, with my legs hanging out the side so that I could wedge my hide on some. On and in between some rocks so that I could stabilize it in the shallow water to actually make it funny with the things you do. Right. You just adapt to the situation and you just have fun with it.
- [43:30]
A
I was just gonna say in the moment, it's just like, no. Yeah, this seems logical and everything, but then I feel like when you're sharing the story now, it does seem even more absurd. Like, what in the hell was I doing? But it's all in the. In the interest of trying to get the shot, you know, And I mean, it is. It puts a smile on your face. It. Like you said, it does make it still fun. It is cool to figure out these challenges and you know, conquer them and then walk away with photos. And sometimes even if you don't get the photo, it's still just a blast to be out there and trying to figure this stuff out. And I think even when you don't, there's always something learned for the next outing.
- [44:08]
B
Absolutely true. And when it comes together and you're able to be undetected close to birds at truly eye level, or some cases, you're even below their eye level, which is amazing. Right. To be that low and to see them behaving, just doing bird things uninterrupted or undisturbed by your presence, that, to me, is the best. The best, absolutely. That's what I'm trying to have happen every time I go out. And it makes all that effort worth it when that's happening.
- [44:46]
A
Yeah, no, completely agree. All right, so the other piece of this that I want to chat to you about is just how do you manage being in this, these temperatures in the cold water? So for everybody. Are you in waders? Do you do a dry suit? I know the answer, but I'm just trying to set this up nicely. How do you approach that?
- [45:05]
B
So it's, it's a dry suit, and it's multiple layers of warm clothing beneath the dry suit. So I intentionally bought the dry suit a size too big and so that I could layer on those layers of warm clothing underneath, starting with the long johns and the long undershirt, and then working out in layers. And I also use the. I have a body warmer that is you stick to your chest.
- [45:42]
A
Okay.
- [45:43]
B
So it's like one of these little, like the toe warmers and hand warmers. You shake it up, and it's adhesive, and you just stick it near your heart to keep your, your core, your core warm. And one in each boot and one in each of my gloves. And away you go. And I, I, I've surprised myself thinking, okay, maybe minus five. That's probably going to be my limit. But I've done days this winter, and I'm not saying this to brag. I'm just saying this is what's possible. I've done -15, -20 Celsius days where people's cars wouldn't start. But the photography opportunity is still there if you get out. And those cold days tend to be the ones that are clear, the colors are the best, and often the, the animals happen to be the most active because that's how they're staying warm.
- [46:39]
A
They need to be. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah, totally.
- [46:42]
B
So if you can get out those Those are great days, but it's not for everyone. You will get cold. Yeah.
- [46:50]
A
So here I have a question. Have you tried the rechargeable battery operated socks? Because, man, one of the last times I was in, I did that. And what a game changer that was over the, the shaky toe ones. Because I don't know if you've experienced this, right. Those things, they kind of need some oxygen in order to work. So I, you know, I've learned you have to kind of let them get a little hot first before you put them in. Because if you put them in right away in the dry suit with all the layers, everything's kind of sealed up. They don't get what they need to start working. And even when they do, I feel like they always fade out kind of quick. The battery operated sock thing was a joy. I mean, kept my feet completely warm. When I was in water that was iced over on the edge. I was, I was in heaven on that one. So I just want to throw that out.
- [47:39]
B
Well, I'm going to be looking into this, Ray. You've hired me to pull this out.
- [47:43]
A
USB rechargeable batteries too, right. That just tuck into the sock. And there was like three different levels. I ended up, they're so warm. I ended up using like the mid range and they last for hours off that battery. And then you just come back in, plug it into the USB C and you're good to go for the next time. And it was like, oh, hell yeah, dude. This was it. I liked it a lot better. I found it a lot warmer than the chemical warmers.
- [48:06]
B
Wow, that's a great tip.
- [48:08]
A
Yeah.
- [48:09]
B
Oh, I've got one other tip that I would share is that when you're working in weather that cold, I found if I'm arriving at a site and it's super cold and then I'm trying to put all my layers on and get dressed and put my boots over the dry suit, stocking feet and everything outside. I'm getting cold as I'm getting ready to go.
- [48:32]
A
Yes.
- [48:33]
B
So now I pre assemble. I have a hatchback car. I preassemble my hut or my, my hide.
- [48:43]
A
Yeah.
- [48:45]
B
And I blow up the punt. Like I have everything ready to go and I put everything on the bottom, including my dry suit and my boots. And then I layer on the top when I get there. Because I find if you get there, you get out of the car and then you have to do all this stuff to get ready. By the time I'm getting in the water, I'm cold totally and so on those cold days, I do a lot of stuff the night before at home or I get up a little bit earlier, get everything ready at home so that when I get out of the car, I'm basically just layering on the top, grabbing my gear, and I'm going to. And I'm not standing around in the cold, getting cold.
- [49:25]
A
Do you still remember the first time you got your dry suit and went in any body of water with it and then came back out? I still remember it. And I don't know if you still get this. I still have times where I come out in a dry suit, whether it just be. Not even if it's like freezing cold water or anything, especially if it's like gross muddy water or anything. And then I take it off and I'm completely dry and clean. And I'm like, this is the best. I was just blown away at how cool that was because it seemed I didn't even know this was like a thing that existed until I got into this, you know? I don't know if you experienced that at all.
- [49:59]
B
Oh, and one of the places I love to go in June for wood ducks and other ducks, it's a. It's a really mushy bottom and it's full of leeches. Just follow them. Because when I'm sitting in my dry suit, I can see them swimming around me.
- [50:19]
A
Wow.
- [50:20]
B
The whole time I'm thinking, thank goodness I've got this layer between me and the leeches, because I'd be covered right now. Yeah.
- [50:28]
A
Yeah. I work at the Great Salt Lake, and it's some of the smelliest, nastiest, gnarliest mud I've ever been in anywhere. And it's just the coolest damn thing, Aaron. To come out of there, and you're just like, you were just crawling. I was laying around in all this muck and everything. And I get out and just strip the suit off and I'm just like, I'm clean. You know, I'm just wearing my clothes. And if it was warm out, sometimes it's got like shorts and a T shirt on underneath. And I was just out there in this gnarly stuff and I'm like, this is the best. It's so nice.
- [50:55]
B
Oh, it is the best, right? Yeah. And it doesn't have to be that expensive either. Like, there are so many non camera gear things that aren't that expensive that can make your experience so much more pleasant.
- [51:08]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I was just gonna say, so many people complain about the price of them. And I'm like, I mean it is so worth it. It is so worth it. And compared piece of camera gear, you're right, it's even an expensive one is cheaper than, you know, most of the camera gear you buy. So if you shoot in and around water, it seems like a no brainer, right?
- [51:29]
B
Oh, absolutely. Yep. And having the right clothing for the right seasons makes yeah, all the difference. And I learned that early on where I was spending. You're spending all your money on your gear and then scrimping on your clothing. And if you're trying to work in shoulder seasons or winter, you can't do it. You need to have quality clothing and the other accessories go with you to make you comfortable so that you can get the most out of that gear you've invested in.
- [52:01]
A
Totally. Yeah. And then I had the fun thing, Aaron, of trying to figure out when I kind of ditched the floating hide and went to the underwater housing of how do I go in the water in the winter and keep my hands even remotely warm, you know, but still be able to shoot. And I ended up finding these. I think they're like, they're either like 5 mil or 6 mil neoprene dry gloves that have these really tight rubber cuffs on them. And then they have a second like, like thinner rubber cuff that can actually seal in on the cuff of the dry suit. Like the, the rubber cuff that would go around your wrist. And so it keeps my hands completely dry inside when my, you know, I'm like working with the underwater housing just under the surface of the water and stuff like that. But trying to get in it myself is hilarious because I'm trying to seal the one side with these big, heavy, thick gloves. I can barely feel anything through. And you're trying to get it just sealed just right because if it's, if it's not lined up right, the water's gonna get in and then you're gonna notice it pretty quick. And like it's just again so funny. Like the things we do to get a photo and to put ourselves in the right place. But when it works, it's just kind of incredible. The whole experience is amazing. And you, you feel. I feel so, you know, like I achieved something because like, yeah, I, I beat this weather. I'm out here anyway.
- [53:26]
B
You know, you earned it. And you can't be self conscious about.
- [53:30]
A
No, no, you look either. Not at all.
- [53:33]
B
Because I can only imagine what somebody in the parking lot sees when I come walking out of the water carrying my h. Ridiculously tank sized lens that I have and all my gear. And then I start shedding layer after layer just to get in my car and drive away. I must be quite a peculiar spectacle to somebody who doesn't know what's happening, right?
- [53:59]
A
Have you had any interesting conversations because of it? Have people come up to you and asked what's going on, what you're up to?
- [54:06]
B
Not as many as you would think. Because I know people are curious, but I think they probably think I'm a little crazy, shouldn't be approached. But yeah, some people. The best experience I had was last winter photographing the long tail ducks on Lake Ontario. And it was an absolutely miserable, windy day where the spray from the waves freezes to you. Oh, and I was in. So my full. I was just a layer of ice cake to my arms, my kayak, all my everything. I was just iced. And I came back to the shore and I'm frozen and I'm wiggling out of my kayak onto the beach and somebody was walking their dog. And I won't repeat what they said because it was very colorful, but they were shocked that someone would even attempt to paddle in those conditions, let alone do it for fun. Yeah, they were flabbergasted, which made it all the more fun for me to be.
- [55:09]
A
Absolutely, absolutely, dude. Absolutely. Yeah. I had a really funny story. It was pretty early on with my floating H and I had gone to this spot that was. It's a favorite sort of marsh spot to photograph shorebirds in late summer. And the water's beautiful and warm in southern New Jersey at the time. So you're just in with like a bathing suit and it's just nice, crystal clear salt water. But I used the floating high because there was like these deep channels that would go around these sand bars. And so you could shoot eye level just by kind of working around the edges. You just like we talked about, you find just the right depth and you'd be doing that. So anyway, I'm working the spot and it's kind of a popular spot to just for people to go just do some paddling around and kayaks. Because like I said, the water's crystal clear, which is unlike most areas in New Jersey. And it's just a beautiful area. And so this one woman is kayaking by and she's coming towards me. So I figure, let me say something so she doesn't get even closer because I don't want to totally freak her out. So I'm just like, hey there. And she, she said. She kind of says something. She's like, unsure. So I popped out of the floating hide so I could just say, like, hey, I'm right here, you know. And at that moment, she ju. Almost tipped over. I scared the hell out of her. She wasn't expecting. She was like, what the heck? Like, I thought you were just a bush over here, you know, it was so funny. And then she ended up being a good sport about it and laughing and then asking me what I was doing. And she was kind of interested. But I mean, yeah, poor lady. I almost tipped her over in her kayak because she was not expecting a person to just pop out of this bush floating next to her.
- [56:41]
B
That's a great story. Yeah.
- [56:43]
A
Yeah.
- [56:43]
B
And it's. I think those experiences are going to happen when you're doing it right because you're blending in with the environment and totally people aren't going to see you.
- [56:54]
A
They're not looking for that, that's for sure. Right. That's not what they're looking for that.
- [56:58]
B
Yeah. But the, the, the one other thing I wanted to say about the floating hide is that it gives you some mobility to get away from areas where, where people are going to blow up your shoot as well.
- [57:13]
A
Yeah. Nice.
- [57:14]
B
So if you're in. For me, the, you know, when I'm. When I'm going down to Lake Ontario, say, there are tons of birders who love to visit these sites and love to see all the weird and wonderful waterfowl. The same things, same reasons I'm there. And they've got their spotting scopes and their binoculars and everything. And so to be able to get in the hide and go to a, A place where they can't get close to.
- [57:40]
A
Yes.
- [57:41]
B
And so if anything, if they're bumping birds, it's to my benefit because they're pushing them to me instead of walking up close to me where I'm trying to work and scaring my. Scaring the birds. So that's. I just love being the freedom of being able to say, okay, where are the birds going to be? Where are the people going to be if people are going to be here? And where can I go to avoid someone inadvertently bumping or flushing my birds? Yeah, that's one of the benefits of the hide as well.
- [58:16]
A
Absolutely, man. And that's a great sort of sentiment to share too, because I think it's something that a lot of photographers struggle with is the frustration of being in places where you put in a decent amount of work or a lot of work sometimes to, to slowly stalk in or just be patient and wait for your subject to come near you, and then inevitably, right the moment where everything's about to line up, somebody else comes walking by unbeknownst. You know, it's not on purpose. It's just the public being there. Maybe it's another photographer, another birder, or just somebody walking by, walking their dog. You know, any number of reasons, but we can all relate to it. And I hear it all the time of photographers complaining. Like, man, it just, you know, there's. People always ruin stuff. And my answer to you on that, to anybody feeling that way, is, I know this sucks, but the answer is you got to work harder. Because it's. If you work hard enough, you can get away from everybody in all scenarios. Doesn't matter whether you're in the water, like I'm talking about with you, Aaron. It doesn't matter whether. It just means you gotta hike further and you gotta spend more time scouting and finding a new location. But I can tell you from experience, you know, I lived in New Jersey. It's one of the most densely populated states in the country. And when I wanted to, if I put the work and effort in, I could go find whatever photograph or whatever subjects I wanted, far enough away from people or with just absolutely no people. And yeah, I mean, it's more work, but if the flip side is you're just upset all the time because people are. Other people are ruining your experience. You got to put in the effort sometimes.
- [59:55]
B
Couldn't say it better.
- [59:56]
A
Better.
- [59:56]
B
You gotta do the work, scout your sites. And if you find that. There were some sites that I had that I love to visit and they started to get a little bit more traffic.
- [60:09]
A
Yeah.
- [60:09]
B
And so that just means I have to find a new place that offers the same opportunities and put the work in. And if it means it's a bit harder to get to, all the better, because other people are less likely to make that effort. There's nothing more satisfying than finding a great spot that's really hard to get to because I know it's going to be mine.
- [60:33]
A
Yeah, no, and I get. I totally understand the feeling of, well, this spot used to be great and nobody was here. And now another photographer came here and shared on social media. Now there's all these other people here and they're, quote, unquote, ruining my spot because it used to be great. Yeah, I get it. That sucks. But you know what? There's nothing you can do about it at that point other than continue to go there and be upset or put in the effort and go find somewhere else. And it sucks. But when you find out of the spot and then you have it to yourself. And just like you said, Aaron, other people are less likely to put in the effort to get there. Damn, that's a good feeling.
- [61:10]
B
Yep. Those are the best spots. The harder they are to get to, the more effort you have to make, then the less likely you're going to find someone sharing your spot while you're there.
- [61:20]
A
There. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I have a question for you. Now that you've been doing, you know, a lot of these different types of ducks. So you do, you know, you got the, the dabbling ducks on the small ponds and the little lakes and then you got the open big water stuff and in some rivers and things like that and all these sea ducks all the way to the, to the little pond dabblers. Do you have a favorite individual species? Do you have a favorite group or are they, are they all your kids? Are they all your kids and you love them equally?
- [61:50]
B
I, I do love them all and I find my favorites may change depending on the season. So right now my, my very favorite ducks right now are long tailed ducks in their winter plumage. I find them and their personalities and their. Just their calls and they're absolutely adorable and I love them, them. But they'll be gone in a month or so, maybe two months. And a lot of. Then I, you know, when the ponds and marshes start opening up around me and then the wood ducks and I, I have a real soft spot for blueing teals.
- [62:35]
A
Yeah. Nice.
- [62:37]
B
You know, in the widgeon and they start widget. Are absolutely gorgeous ducks. You know, when they all start coming back, then they're my favorites. So I, I do, I love them all. Hooded mergansers. Mergansers, as a group of ducks, they're so photogenic and, and the way they can raise and lower their crests and the way they, they dive and behave around each other and their courting behaviors are.
- [63:08]
A
Yeah.
- [63:09]
B
Amazing to watch. And even just when the wind blows through their crests.
- [63:15]
A
Yeah.
- [63:15]
B
And you know, maybe flops it over twice.
- [63:18]
A
Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
- [63:19]
B
Yeah. It just looks like there. It gives some different expressions or things. Yeah. And so that's an unfair question, Ray. Shame on you for asking.
- [63:29]
A
No, I, I totally, I totally get what you're saying too, because each. And that's the thing is like I can find something so interesting about each species. You know, each species has its little thing, whether it be a coloration or a marking or a behavior or a combination of all things that make them unique to themselves. And yes, there Are waterfowl as a group. And yes, there's a general approach to them that, that kind of works, but they all kind of have their own set of ways of being, you know, and they all have their own little variations and that you need to. To learn and figure out as a photographer to get the best photos of them. And isn't that just so much part of the fun?
- [64:13]
B
Oh, yeah. And it's the same with warblers and learning their, their habitats and where you'll find them and. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. And how many days have you been out on a waterfowl shoot where a pied billed grebe saves the day?
- [64:30]
A
Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, totally.
- [64:32]
B
Like none of the birds, the ducks that you went for whatever reason, they didn't show or they. There were just no photo opportunities. And then along comes this little adorable little p. Build grebe.
- [64:45]
A
I know.
- [64:45]
B
And gives you some photo opportunities and saves your day. Right. So I love them all.
- [64:52]
A
Yeah, no, I hear you on that. Someday you got to get yourself up to the arctic and see those long tails and breeding plumage because that is something else. And it blows your mind, you know, how much work you have to put in to get near them. They're, they're. They can be very skittish and everything. And you go up to these tundra ponds and you just walk up to them and they just look at you. You in this little pond, you could throw a rock across. It's. That's how big it is. And they're just like, yeah, what's up? There's just. The fear is gone. It's so bizarre, Aaron. I, I still don't understand it, but I'm grateful for it because it sure is fun up there.
- [65:25]
B
I have my head in my hands right now because that is so different than my experience with these long tails. In the winter. I have to paddle on the lake. You have to plan depending on wind and, and where they are and how to get close to them.
- [65:44]
A
Yeah.
- [65:44]
B
And I'm, I'm draped. I've sewn a camo thing that goes over my inflatable kayak. And then I'm under a float throw blind myself.
- [65:54]
A
Yeah.
- [65:55]
B
And I'm bungee corded or tethered to some navigation boy so I can be out where the ducks are.
- [66:02]
A
Gotcha.
- [66:02]
B
And just, just trying to. Willing one to get close enough to me.
- [66:07]
A
Yeah.
- [66:08]
B
That I can get a photo. And you're walking up to them.
- [66:11]
A
It's bizarre. It makes no sense, you know, but man, that's just it's kind of the experience up there. And I have had some of them that are a little bit more skittish, but just so many times. Just all these. These tundra nesting ducks are just. The fear is very different up there. It's. It's pretty bizarre. Yeah.
- [66:31]
B
I do have to see that. So now you've given me two things to think about, Ray. Getting up to the Arctic to see those tunder nesting ducks.
- [66:40]
A
Yes.
- [66:41]
B
And underwater photography, which I'm so impressed with the work that you and Emily were doing last year with your underwater housings and some of those unbelievable images where you're showing the underwater environment combine.
- [66:56]
A
Yeah.
- [66:57]
B
With the terrestrial. Like those to. To accomplish that and how close you have to get at those short focal lengths to get some like. I mean, they look amazing to somebody who can just appreciate art, but for somebody who knows the technical aspects of what it takes to do that. Yeah. It was mind blown. So that's. That's a whole other realm of photography that I haven't even explored yet, but probably will at some point.
- [67:26]
A
I was going to ask. Yeah. Because what are. I forget. Are you a Nikon shooter?
- [67:32]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [67:33]
A
Okay. So. So that's the interesting thing is from what I can tell, that is the only brand that has a lens that if you ever want to play around with telephoto photography in an underwater housing, has a chance of doing it right. Every other brand has, like all these companies that make the underwater housings, make ports that will handle a 70-200 millimeter f 2.8. But as we all know, 200 millimeter is not much, you know, and now you could get an extension on them and put a 1.4 or even a 2x on it. So you could get up to. I guess to. I guess that's how you could do it. Right. I guess you could put a 2x converter on a 70 to 200 for the other brands and do that. But Nikon has that beautiful old F mount lens that is the 300F 4PF, which is minuscule. It's a little thing. Exactly.
- [68:24]
B
I love it.
- [68:26]
A
So do I. And I still. That's the only F mount glass I still have because of that. Because I can throw that in at 300 millimeter or I can add the 14 and get 420 millimeter and get this lovely telephoto setup that fits inside the port of a 70 to 200 underwater housing. And now all of a sudden you're out shooting at 420 millimeters in an underwater Housing and talk about being able to shoot water level. Right.
- [68:56]
B
That's the next frontier for me, Ray. And I'm. I think you and I will be talking again because if you, I mean, just what you've shared just now has already advanced my understanding of what's possible a lot because I do have that little PF lens. And when I went to Newfoundland last summer for the puffins, I. That little PF lens, the 300 was the one I used the most.
- [69:20]
A
Oh, nice.
- [69:22]
B
Of all the different focal lengths because it just seemed to be that sweet spot of gotcha. It's so light to travel with.
- [69:29]
A
Oh my gosh. It's so light.
- [69:32]
B
But also the, the ability to still get a telephoto shot, but incorporate some background to show the environment. For my first visit anyway, with puffin photography, that, that was the lens that I went to the most and I loved it. Yeah.
- [69:49]
A
So right before we started recording, you had kind of mentioned something about Newfoundland. Would you care to share some of your thinking and ideas there? Because I think there's an interesting conversation for us both to have about that.
- [70:02]
B
Well, it was always a dream for me to see the puffins and I'm a huge admirer of Brad James and his photography. And I'd been to Newfoundland a few times, but. But never for bird photography. So last year I went for a week. I went for my first week in Newfoundland, went to a few locations, got some nice images and got a really came away with an unbelievable impression of just how beautiful it is there and how lovely the people are and the food is fantastic and the opportunities to shoot these beautiful seabirds. I mean, I was just blown away. But. But on your first trip, there's a lot of figuring out. And so I'm going to go back again this year. I'm going to go back again for a week, but this year I'm planning to bring my floating hide because it's very portable and a dry suit. And I'm hopeful for some opportunities to get in the ocean with some of these birds and get some eye level shots. Nice pictures of puffins on the land and they're beautiful. But you, at least for me in, in the circles that I run, I don't see as many pictures of puffins in the water. So I'd love to be able to try that.
- [71:26]
A
Yeah, definitely the only one that comes to mind is what it's. I think it's BWM photo on. Yeah, it's Brian Matthews. Do you follow him? Him?
- [71:40]
B
I'm not sure.
- [71:41]
A
Okay, so it's BW photo and he has a bunch of underwater housing stuff that he shot of puffins over in the uk. So he's got like split level shots. He's got them like peering under the water. He's got all this stuff that he does where he, he's been doing it for a couple of years now and has kind of like dialed it in a bit. And so that seeing that photography inspired me to try and do something similar. I haven't done it yet. Yet. But just like you, I've thought about it, I've seen the potential there it in Newfoundland it's really weather dependent, you know, like that's going to be the thing. I have seen the ocean. They're calm enough to get in and feel completely safe. I mean I've seen it. I'm like, yep, you could, you could walk right in off the rocky shoreline and be fine. But maybe three or four times and all the time I've been up there, you know, know have I seen it calm enough because everything else it's just so you wouldn't go in. It's just be a death wish of going in the water in all the other conditions. Right. So it's, it's definitely going to be a matter of that. But if you had everything ready just like you said, getting out in the water with these birds could be so fascinating. Absolutely.
- [72:57]
B
Yeah. Well that's, that's the dream and I'm not sure it's going to happen but I'm planning to spend to concentrate more time in a specific place that. To maximize the opportunities for the right conditions to come together.
- [73:15]
A
Yeah, that's awesome man. No, that's so cool. Yeah. And so for me I've been thinking about it, the spin I think I can do there that I haven't seen Brian do in his photography because that's the thing, Right. I think you think about it the same way, right. It's like I see other photographer stuff and I get inspired. I'm like that's cool but I don't want to do that. That they're already doing it, you know.
- [73:34]
B
Yeah, you don't want to repeat.
- [73:36]
A
Yeah, exactly. You know. And so the, the spin I'd like to try is sort of medium or wider focal length stuff. But where I can get the puffins in Newfoundland as you know the cliffs are incredible and everything I've seen from Bryant and these. Listen, I'm not trying to knock these. They're amazing, they're unique. I've not seen anybody else do what he's doing, but they never have scenery. It's just usually open water. Or if the scenery is there, it's like, really far off the back, just kind of like hills and stuff. It's not. It's not puffins with these incredible cliffs just rocketing out of the ocean right there. And in Newfoundland, that. That potential is right there. So that is what I would like to try and do. But for me, I'd have to. And this is the research I have to do. I got to find somebody I can hire a boat to take me out to the spot where I want to photograph them, where I've seen the potential, because. And then I need to figure out sort of the safety aspect of it, because without a floating hide, I need to figure out how to keep myself buoyant. But like you pointed out, Aaron, which is keep my feet down, you know, because I don't want the. The dry suit just constantly floating me up sideways. I need to be able to stay upright. So I think what I need to do is get some, like, dive weights and put them on either my legs or my, you know, the bottom half of me to keep my feet down. And then I. My thinking is, and I probably got to get some of this stuff and test it in a pool is. Is one of those life jackets that has, like, the. Like the inflatable tube where you can control the buoyancy of it. You know, where you can add air to it or let air out, depending on how high you want to sit in the thing. And then probably wear, like, another secondary safety life jacket with, like, the CO2 cartridge that can inflate. If something were to go wrong, I could just pop that and make sure I stay afloat. Because, you know, you never know, right? If I had a leak in the dry suit and all of a sudden that thing started filling up with water, that would be a problem, you know, and then, like, in these conditions, it could be life or death, right? So this is not, for me, the way I'm approaching it, it's not like a, ah, just let's see what happens kind of endeavor, you know?
- [75:40]
B
Well, and. And I think we have to be clear is that I'm an enabler, because I'm listening to what you're saying and thinking all that makes sense. But to many logical people outside of us, what you just said sounds like a suicide mission, you know, intentionally putting weights on your feet and going in the ocean. And so I think we have to. You almost have to put a safety warning over this podcast, right? To say these Are two very nutty people. Do not try to emulate their behaviors.
- [76:14]
A
Well, and to clarify, I'm gonna go in a pool where things are safe and test this stuff first. I'm not gonna just like, wing it out there. Right. You know what I mean? And, you know, like, you. This. That's the other part of it. Right. It's like we're not just jumping in the water and seeing what happens. You know, we really do put a lot of thought and planning and scenario idea, like, you know, running through all the different possible scenarios and just trying to do your best to. Number one, make it. I don't know if it's number one. Maybe it might be number two for me. I was going to say number one, make it safe, but I don't know. Number one is kind of like, get an amazing photo. Number two is make it safe.
- [76:58]
B
See, this. This is why we. We need something to bring some other sane person into this conversation. Because I'm just going to keep encouraging you because everything you're saying, I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
- [77:12]
A
Well, I was just realizing as I was saying number one was going to be safety and number two is a foot. I'm like, I don't know if that's really accurate because I think it might be flipped for me.
- [77:21]
B
Yeah. Well, there I. I can empathize that there are of risk that you feel comfortable with. That's the key in order to get the shot. And it's a calculated risk sometimes. And of course, we would never intentionally do something that was going, you know, to result in some form of harm. But I got some really lovely shots of puffins last year where I was scaling across a very steep cliff and the ocean was a long way below me. It wasn't going to be a kind landing, but I felt comfortable doing it because I had the. The fitness and comfort to be able to do it. But if I saw someone else doing it, I would say, no, don't do that.
- [78:06]
A
Yeah, that's.
- [78:07]
B
That's really not safe behavior. But it's. Your level of comfort will be different.
- [78:13]
A
That. That is absolutely it. And I really. I truly do like pushing myself to an extent. But anytime it really does feel like. Like it's beyond what I have deemed, you know, like I'm in control here. That's when it is time to stop. And I know photo is ever worth a serious injury, let alone death, you know, it just is not worth that for me.
- [78:38]
B
But of course. And when you're meeting your groups. Right.
- [78:41]
A
Well, that I'm sure.
- [78:44]
B
Yeah. And that's, I mean, you would try things when you're shooting on your own that you would never allow someone who's under your care to even attempt. Right?
- [78:54]
A
Yeah. And then also, you know, and Newfoundland is a perfect example. Right, because you've been to those cliffs. Some of those cliffs are not, you're going to fall and get hurt.
- [79:01]
B
It's.
- [79:02]
A
If you fall, you're dead. There's no question. Right. You're done.
- [79:04]
B
Yeah.
- [79:05]
A
In certain places. So it is not a, you know, we're kind of joking and laughing here about some of this stuff, but it is not a joking matter. And so I do, you know, at times I found myself saying there is a really good perspective over here, but I will never tell anybody. I'm like, I will not tell you to go there if you decide, decide to go there on your own. I, I'm not. You're an adult. You're allowed to make that decision. You know, I, I flat out say, I'm like, I do not recommend that you go there, but if you decide to go there, you can, you can try that. And, and if somebody does, I'll try to. You know, I found myself being behind them, holding on to, you know, part of their clothing, trying to help keep things safer and everything like that. But it's like, I'm never, I'm never going to tell somebody, oh, you should try this. This would be a great shot. Because that's, that's poor leadership at that point, you know, like, I should never put somebody in harm's way. But if they choose to on their own, I'll try my best to keep them safe as possible, you know? Right.
- [80:06]
B
Totally makes sense.
- [80:08]
A
Yeah. So anyway, it's going to be a fun year. Absolutely. When we, when we get off air here, I do want to chat with you a little bit more about just your schedule when you're going to be there, see if there might be a chance we can cross paths because we're going to be there, you know, most of the summer, so.
- [80:24]
B
Oh, that would be awesome. Awesome.
- [80:26]
A
If things may align and Emily and I are getting married up there in that same town this year. Yes.
- [80:33]
B
I did not know that. That's fantastic news. Congratulations, Ray, to you and Emily. That's amazing.
- [80:38]
A
Thanks so much. Yeah. We're going to be standing not, not at the main puffin colony, but the other spot that's more scenic and pretty that not many people go to.
- [80:47]
B
I know the place. I already know the place you're talking about.
- [80:50]
A
We're going to go over to those cliffs and that's where we're going to actually get. And, and Brad, his wife is actually going to be our officiant and marry us, you know, so we're going to have a true Newfoundlander marry us up there. And because Newfoundland has just become. It truly has been one of our favorite places and you know, we have seen a lot of places but. And you can understand why now that you've been there. It's something amazing about that place up there for sure.
- [81:21]
B
It's everything. It's the people, people, it's the environment, it's the birds, it's. Yeah, it's really and truly a lovely place and I'm so happy for you and Emily and the place that you are going. I, I know it and I love it. It's absolutely stunning and it's a perfect place.
- [81:40]
A
How classic is this for photographers planning a wedding? Right. We've given ourselves a three day window. We don't even know exactly which day we're going to get married on because we want to pick it for good weather and good light. Right. How good is that?
- [81:54]
B
Oh, it's such a photographer thing to do to say, well, because I'm having this conversation with my wife when I'm planning this trip, she's like, you've already been there, you, you already know what to expect. Why do you need so many days? And I said, the weather and the light.
- [82:10]
A
Yeah.
- [82:11]
B
Because I could be there in the same place for four days and not get the conditions I want and on the fifth day I get the them. So if I go and I. Everything works out great on the first day, then it turns out you were right and I could have had a shorter trip, but I don't know that. So I need to plan that in.
- [82:29]
A
And who wants a shorter trip to Newfoundland? You know, not me. No, definitely not us.
- [82:36]
B
Oh, congratulations, Ray. That's amazing news.
- [82:39]
A
Oh, thanks, man. So the last topic I wanted to talk to you about, which initially was going to be the first thing we talked about, but we got back around to it, which is good, good. It's the time of the. Right. So this is, it's mid February right now as we're recording this. I'll probably have this episode out pretty quickly, so it should still be timely. But it's the time of the year for anybody who's entered some of these big bird and wildlife photography contests where you get the feedback, you get to hear. Did any of my images make it to the next round? The final round of judging and where they request your RAW file and stuff like that. And so Wildlife Photographer of the Year happened maybe less than a month ago, but a few weeks back and then I think Bird photographer. The year just happened within the last week or so, kind of. Correct.
- [83:22]
B
Yes, it was earlier this week.
- [83:24]
A
Yeah, exactly. Earlier this week. And so, first question I have for you, did you get any into the final round?
- [83:31]
B
I did. I was fortunate to get a few photos get through to the next round. So they've asked for the RAW and the information and stuff.
- [83:40]
A
Yes. Which always feels like an achievement, doesn't it? It's always like something. I think that it says something.
- [83:47]
B
It abs. Well, it's different feelings for different people, I'm sure. But for me first, I'm always a little puzzled.
- [83:59]
A
Yes. This is why I wanted to bring this up.
- [84:01]
B
Which images of the. So this year I submitted as many or more images than I've submitted in previous years and I thought I had some really, really good ones in there that didn't get picked, but some of the ones that I thought were more on the margins of my best were the ones they picked. And now. Now that I go back, I can see why. But it was a surprise to me, the ones they picked. But to your initial question about it, there is. It's not the competitiveness really, for me, me, it's the fact that I work really hard at getting better at my craft.
- [84:48]
A
Yeah.
- [84:48]
B
And that I work really hard to try to get unique images and get them right in the camera.
- [84:57]
A
Yes.
- [84:58]
B
So I don't have to do a lot of manipulation in post. And that's where these contests really set the bar high for those kinds of things that I aspire to.
- [85:09]
A
Sure.
- [85:10]
B
And so to have some images shortlisted, whether it's right or not, it's a form of validation that, you know, I'm amongst some of the people who are also very committed to this craft and who are commit creating unique images and who are doing it in camera, using their skills with their camera. And so I do take. It makes me happy to know that I've gone from a novice to someone who can at least have some images that compare with some of the other photographers that I really admire and respect.
- [85:51]
A
Yeah. I love that outlook on it. I think that's a wonderful outlook and I think I would even add to that that, you know, your images now are in the grouping that. That the winners will be chosen from. Right. So they're at that level, you know, like that's. That's kind of their first pass. Right. The judge's first pass is their job is to kind of call out the stuff that's like, well, this isn't going to really meet that level of criteria for a potentially winning image. And to make that final round kind of says, you're in the running, you know, you're in. You're in, at least at that level. Because I think beyond that, actually, the. The chosen images for winning are just so damn subjective. They're just so at the whims of the judges and their preferences and everything like that. I feel like it almost doesn't even say as much at that point. Not that it's nothing, you know, congrats to everybody who does and has won and placed it in levels. There is something to that, but it almost just feels like it's maybe more of a, like you said, a recognizable sign that what you're doing and the effort you're putting in to do things, to capture images the way you are in camera and get it right and make things unique and stand out is all at the level of something that could possibly be won or win in place at these contests because you're in that round now. Does that make sense?
- [87:18]
B
Exactly. That's exactly. My sentiment is to know that all your efforts in improving your craft and trying to do things the way that you think are right to you, and then holding your images up to others who are really accomplished and, you know, people that I really respect for their artistry and their commitment and their. Their dedication and just some of the beautiful images they create, and to think that I might have a few that are in that same realm, makes me feel really good about what I'm doing.
- [87:53]
A
Yeah. And then there's the baffling side of why do they choose some of this stuff? And, yeah, you're totally right. This is the tough part of contests for me personally, which is I have the images I'm the most passionate about, most connected with, most proud of, and inevitably, those tend to me, tend to be not the ones that are chosen. That's exactly what happened for me with Wildlife Photographer of the Year. You know, I. I look at the ones they chose and I'm like, Like, just like you put them. It was a great way of saying it. They're kind of on the fringes of what I want to enter at that point. And obviously I deemed them worthy of something because I chose them to enter in the first place. But they certainly weren't like my. This is my, you know, if I enter 20 images, these, these are the three that I'm just Like the most proud of this year that I feel like I really pushed myself in my craft and came up with something totally different and unique and then, then the, the more standard kind of thing gets chosen. I'm like, huh, like what happened there? You know, it leaves you questioning.
- [88:59]
B
It does, but it, it's subjective and it's a taste and it depends on the judges and it depends on, I
- [89:08]
A
think,
- [89:11]
B
I think it takes, it's risky sometimes to say, oh, that's a really unconventional image, you know, I'm gonna take that one. And yeah, no, anyway, yeah, I, it's a measuring stick for me. It's a great point of pride when I can get a photo say in Bird Photographer of the Year to have a photo selected for the book and to be able then to buy the book and give it to my mom and my mother in law at Christmas and say, you know, these are some of the, were deemed to be some of the best bird Im in this contest and I'm in there, I'm in the mix. And there's a point of pride to be able to give that as a gift. But I learned early on not to take it too seriously because it's. So there's the subjective part, there's just the sheer volume of entries that they get and the odds are stacked against you, of course. And there's so many people doing great work with the, the technology we have now. It's just the creative possibilities are even greater. So yeah, I try not to take the first few contests I entered and didn't get any photo shortlisted and I took, I took that personally. It's like, oh, I guess my work's not that good. But in some ways that became a motivator to do better. But in other respects I shouldn't have taken it that seriously in the first place. Right?
- [90:48]
A
Yeah, no, and that's where I was kind of saying I think, you know, and you sort of brought it up for me. I've never really kind of, I don't think I've ever really pinpointed it myself for these contests that just making the final round almost in a way says more. You know, I think that is simply just like I said, it puts you at that level of this is in that grouping that the winners are going to be chosen from. So you've achieved that level. Right. And that, and that is maybe a little bit less subjective because the judges have a lot more leeway there, you know, I mean, just like you said, picking out the top four or three images in every category that they have out of still all the images that are in that shortlist, that final round is still, you know, the odds are against you. And so the, the chances that you happen to. Your image, happens to appeal to enough of the judges to make it to that round is really, really slim. And, and like you said, it's just up to their subjectivity and everything. But when they're just saying, all right, this one's going to make it into a final round, that's like a. That's like a quality. That's a barrier right there, a quality level that they're, they're deeming it. And I feel like that maybe in a way can be seen as, like you said, just a great measuring stick and something to be proud of for everybody who gets to that level.
- [92:14]
B
Right. And it's not, of course, it's not the be all, end all, but when you invest as much time and thought and energy and expense into this thing we've chosen to pursue and want to get better at, it's that little bit of validation. I mean, for some people, they probably wouldn't care and, and that's great, but for me to know that I'm in the mix with some people who are really good at it makes me feel good.
- [92:48]
A
That's.
- [92:49]
B
That's the flat out truth of it. Yeah, it makes me feel good about what I'm doing.
- [92:53]
A
No, absolutely, and you should. Man, your images have been incredible. They keep getting more incredible. And so I'll end this conversation with the last question I tend to ask most guests, which is, what do you see coming up in the near future as far as, like, for yourself to continue to push your own creativity? Do you have something in mind, some specific technique, a direction you're going with your photography, a very specific shot in mind? Where do you see it going for yourself to keep pushing yourself?
- [93:22]
B
Maybe a little off the board, Ray, but I'm really, really interested in how I can use my art and what. And my skills that I've developed to support conservation initiatives. And so I'm normally a very introverted person, but I put myself out there quietly just before Christmas last year, I developed a website where I posted some galleries of images and I'm taking the proceeds from any images that I sell and donating them to wildlife conservation. And so that's been my. I don't, I don't get very many requests for prints, to be honest, but every once in a while, someone would reach out to me through social media and say, I. This, this particular image really connects with me. I'd like to buy it. And I've, I've always said, oh, no, I'm not running a business. I, I just, this is my hobby. It's fun for me. And enough of those happen, not that many, but enough for me to say I could be using these as, these requests as an opportunity to do some good. And so, and it was really. I'm not sure if you Follow Shane Kaelin 4elements Photos on social media.
- [94:51]
A
Absolutely.
- [94:52]
B
But Shane was the guy who really showed me the way in that he organized this group of this collective of Canadian wildlife photographers. He called it Canadian Conservation. And he organizes auctions through social media where we donate. Once or twice a year we donate images of our choosing and of the format we, we feel comfortable donating and then we auction them off and then collectively we pool all that money and donate it. And as a photographer, I, I didn't make that connection between the art and what we're creating and an opportunity to do some good for wildlife conservation charities. So I think through the nine auctions that Shane has organized that I've been privileged, absolutely privileged to participate in, we've raised over $90,000 for different charities just through Shane's initiative and this loose collective of photographers. So that showed me that, that even a little bit makes a difference. And so I've developed this website. I've been fortunate to have a few people who are kind enough to, to see. Worthy. To see my photos. Worthy enough of actually buying some.
- [96:16]
A
Yeah.
- [96:16]
B
And I'm starting to put together a little bit of proceeds that I'm going to be able to donate to a conservation charity. And so I've more recently signed up with this larger group of Canadian photographers called the Canadian Conservation Photographers Collective. I'm still a relatively new and probably one of the least accomplished members of that collective. Some of them are truly extraordinary photographers and videographers. But that's, that's, that's where I'm going with this, is trying to find a way to use what I'm creating to give back to the environments and the wildlife that I love. And even if it's just a small bit that adds to bigger and larger initiatives and I'm just doing my little bit, then I do think it matters.
- [97:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, how can it not anything like that, no matter how small the amount is a conscious decision to, to give back to the wildlife that gives us so much joy and so much, you know, improvement in our own mental health and all of these wonderful things and just these incredible experiences and, and joy in life. So, yeah, I think it really does matter, no matter how small. And that's wonderful that you're doing it. We'll make sure to include a link to that site for anybody interested in checking it out. And I'll make sure to include links to the other conservation initiatives you just mentioned there too. But great answer, man. I love it.
- [97:55]
B
Oh, thanks, Ray.
- [97:56]
A
Yeah. And I can't wait to see what you continue to keep doing. Have the most fun in Newfoundland. Absolutely. Which I know is going to happen. You know that it's. You can't not have an amazing time up there. And like I said, hopefully it'd be really cool if we can cross paths. If not up there, it'll happen sometime, somewhere.
- [98:17]
B
What I will try to avoid is some camouflage person wandering through the back of your wedding photos.
- [98:27]
A
I think that would just make it. Yeah.
- [98:30]
B
Who is that guy with that giant Nikon lens wandering through our photos? Someone get him out of here.
- [98:36]
A
Oh, that'd be so damn funny, man. That'd be so funny. Oh, man. Aaron, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me again, really.
- [98:43]
B
You know what, I hope I didn't blather on too long, but it really is a pleasure to talk to you, Ray and I do have a tremendous amount of appreciation and admiration for not just your photography, but for the courageous lifestyle you've chosen and your commitment to your craft. I'm an admirer and it's a pleasure to get a chance to talk to you.
- [99:07]
A
I really appreciate it, man. Thanks again. Happy shooting out there.
- [99:10]
B
Thanks, Ray. You too.
- [99:13]
A
Hey, this is Ray Hennessey. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode. Please subscribe and your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.