251: Richard Flack

Summary

Wildlife Photo Chat – Episode 251: Richard Flack

Host: Ray Hennessy
Guest: Richard Flack
Date: March 3, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Ray Hennessy welcomes back Richard Flack for a record-setting third appearance. They dive into Richard’s “year of firsts”—from launching a leadership coaching business to creating his first wildlife documentary about South Africa’s critically endangered Blue Swallows. The conversation offers rich insights into navigating creative growth, balancing new challenges, connecting conservation and photography, cultivating personal style, and the deeper human connections at the heart of artistry and environmental impact.

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Key Discussion Points

1. A Year of Firsts and Following the Heart

[01:12–03:28]

• Richard reflects on a year packed with new experiences: launching a leadership coaching business and—most notably—making his first short documentary film.
• His new pursuits are less by design and more about “following my heart” and faith, embracing new opportunities as they arise.
• Richard finds it “daunting, doing new stuff,” but his philosophy is to “wake up and do my best every day.”

Quote:

“I think I’ve just really been following my heart… Been trying to listen and do what I feel God asks and that’s just led down… different roads.”
– Richard ([01:50])

2. Saying ‘Yes’ and Facing Creative Daunt

[03:28–06:25]

• Ray relates to Richard’s “daunting” year, opening up about his own flurry of firsts, often the result of saying ‘yes’ to new projects during downtime.
• Both discuss the overwhelming nature of creative lives when multiple projects converge at once.

Quote:

“It’s easy to say yes to things when you have downtime.”
– Ray ([04:10])

3. The Anxiety and Joy of New Ventures

[06:25–09:13]

• They reflect on the build-up—stress, work, and sometimes anxiety—before big events or new creative challenges, and the joy of the experience itself.
• Richard opens up about past anxiety with public speaking but shares how confidence and focusing on helping others now make the process enjoyable rather than stressful.

Quote:

“I think mine’s been quite simple. Like, I just want to know that God wants me to go. And then I kind of go, well, what could go wrong?”
– Richard ([07:41])

4. Present Living and Building Confidence

[09:13–10:07]

• Richard’s approach centers on being present with family and those he encounters, prioritizing enjoyment and small daily improvement.
• Ray relates this to building confidence in photography mentorships, especially for public speaking.

5. Family, Hobbies, and Passion Projects

[10:34–16:45]

• Richard shares about his family’s upcoming visit to Seattle—planning to photograph American birds and beetles with his son.
• Discusses supporting his son’s passions for cricket and beetle collecting, with discoveries including possibly undocumented species and connections to scientists.
• Reveals an exciting new “signature trip”—an ultra-small, bespoke South Africa safari for two long-term mentorship students to his favorite locations.

Quote:

“He’s literally found beetles that one had only been seen five times before ever, and like the first photograph of a living specimen.”
– Richard ([15:59])

6. Power of Relationship in Creative Work

[18:49–21:37]

• Describes the difference between “client” workshops and trips with mentorship students: trust, a shared vocabulary, and deeper constructive relationships.

Quote:

“There’s almost… a built-in trust there. Both just to be able to… be yourself, but also help, you know, propel their photography, to push some people.”
– Ray ([20:09])

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Deep Dive: The Blue Swallow Documentary

7. How the Film Began

[22:12–25:48]

• Award-winning filmmaker Johan Vermeulen approached Richard to appear in a film about South African birds.
• Richard suggested they shoot at Rosens Nature Reserve, home to several pairs of the critically endangered Blue Swallow—only 25 pairs are left in South Africa.

Quote:

“I thought that would be definitely boring… just watching Rich prance around the grasslands. And so I said… could we go and do it at a place called Rosens Nature Reserve, which has… five pairs of [the] 25 pairs of critically endangered blue swallows…”
– Richard ([22:44])

8. The Shooting Experience, Luck, and Human Connection

[25:52–29:11]

• Initial filming was just one day; later expanded to a full four-day shoot.
• Faced challenges like elusive subjects, time pressure, and unpredictable grassland conditions (mist, rare sightings).
• Managed to obtain rare and possibly first-ever footage of Blue Swallow behavior, aided by Richard’s field instincts and quick thinking.

Quote:

“As he got back, we just… got the first ever footage of these birds doing some stuff… set him up and yeah, we just caught this once-in-a-lifetime moment…”
– Richard ([28:13])

• The documentary spotlighted the reciprocal relationships between people and place—with conservationists, family, and the land itself.
• Richard’s connection to the Blue Swallows and mistbelt grassland deepened as he learned the delicate web of ecological threats and the mystery of the swallows’ decline.

9. The Role of Human Stories in Conservation

[29:12–34:15]

• The importance of including people, stories, and relationships in effective conservation storytelling.
• Photography and storytelling as catalysts for real conservation impact.
• Richard finds, for the first time, his photography has clearly made a measurable difference in supporting conservation action.

Quote:

“It was the first time that I have ever experienced… photography makes a difference and can drive awareness and get people to take action. But it was the first time I’ve ever seen my photographs do that…”
– Richard ([30:12])

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The Power—and Limits—of Conservation Photography

10. Measurability, Motivation, and Encouragement

[36:01–42:52]

• Discuss how the real impact of conservation media is hard to quantify—likes or views rarely correlate directly with long-term effect.
• Ray recalls that while audience feedback is rare, a heartfelt thank you from just one person makes all the effort worth it.

Quote:

“You don’t often get to see the result of that… There’s a lot more impact we don’t see.”
– Richard ([41:36])

11. Generosity, Encouragement, and Authenticity

• Richard urges photographers to encourage their peers more often and to focus on the intrinsic joy of creating, teaching, and caring, rather than external validation or measurable success.

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Releasing the Documentary: Details and Intent

12. How to Watch the Blue Swallow Documentary

[45:15–48:07]

• Release Date: March 10, 2026 (YouTube: Blue Swallow Productions channel)
• Purposefully avoids personal branding/followers; focus is wholly on conservation and awareness.
• Fundraising for Conservation Heritage Trust for continued preservation.

Quote:

“We just both thought we didn’t want it to be about us… it’s really what it’s about is just getting people to watch this documentary and drive awareness for the birds… and hopefully, drive some funding…”
– Richard ([45:36])

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Personal Growth, Competitions, and Evolving Artistic Style

13. On Competitions and Artistic Confidence

[53:50–63:44]

• Both discuss the nuances of wildlife photo competitions—how making a shortlist affirms artistic growth, regardless of winning.
• Caution against basing self-esteem on contest outcomes; focus on fun and healthy feedback loops.

Quote:

“Don’t enter competitions for self-esteem. Like build your confidence outside of them… enter competitions because it’s fun.”
– Richard ([56:25])

14. Artistic Evolution and Style

[68:43–76:47]

• Ray and Richard reflect on whether artistic style is intentional or evolves naturally.
• Richard emphasizes genuinely pursuing what brings joy—a style “emerges” organically from what an artist loves.

Quote:

“It comes from who you are uniquely… your intuition, your gut, and that is such an important part of… what makes you YOU as an artist.”
– Richard ([75:11])

• Richard’s mentorship approach helps students discover and cultivate their own emerging style by identifying what truly excites them in their work.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Impact:
  “There’s a lot more impact we don’t see… and I think that’s… just knowing that that happens every now and then and getting encouraged by someone just fuels that fire a lot more.”
  – Richard ([41:36])

• On Conservation and Photography:
  “Your photographs, the impact they have doesn’t get measured… maybe not as appreciated as you should be and maybe not getting to actually see the measurable results, but from my experience, there’s no doubt that what we do… does make a difference.”
  – Richard ([37:08])

• On Style:
  “So many mentorship students come to me… and they’re like, ‘I want a style’… I’ve just always been a proponent of if you just keep chasing what you love and what brings you joy… your style will show up eventually…”
  – Ray ([72:22])

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Important Timestamps

• [01:12] – Richard’s “year of firsts”
• [06:25] – Handling the anxiety of firsts and public speaking
• [14:32] – Beetle collecting and rare species discoveries
• [22:12] – How the documentary project started
• [28:13] – Once-in-a-lifetime footage of Blue Swallows
• [30:12] – Photography’s role in real-world conservation
• [45:15] – Details about the film’s March 10 release
• [56:25] – Competitions and the pitfalls of seeking validation

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Final Thoughts

Ray and Richard’s conversation is an inviting blend of honest self-reflection, conservation storytelling, and practical wisdom for creatives. It’s a heartfelt exploration of why we create art, how we handle growth and challenges in our lives and careers, and how our genuine passions—when pursued authentically—offer lasting impact, both for ourselves and the wild world we cherish.

Don’t miss Richard’s Blue Swallow documentary—find it on YouTube March 10, and help share the story to support vital conservation!

Transcript

[A]

Welcome everyone to another episode of Wildlife Photo Chat. I'm happy to have back on the show yet again, Richard Flack. Rich, how's it going?

[B]

How's it, Ray? So good to be here. I think this is my third time. I'm starting to like, not even get anxious, you know, quite excited.

[A]

I know. Listen and listen. That's the record. That's the most I've had a single guest back on the show. So great achievement.

[B]

No way. What a privilege, man. Thank you.

[A]

Episode 251.

[B]

I love our times together.

[A]

Yeah. 250 of these things I've done. It's crazy.

[B]

That's amazing. Hey, well done.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It just kind of keeps going and I have lulls in it, you know, like I just had kind of like a two month break where I didn't do anything because I was just busy with other stuff. But I enjoyed doing it. And so it was like, let's get some guests back. And then you reached out. Perfect timing. So we scheduled this and made it happen. But. Yeah, man, it sounds like you've had quite a full schedule lately, huh?

[B]

Yeah, I think different, Ray. I think, Yeah. I was saying to you earlier, I think it's been a year of firsts and it was funny, I was chatting to my old man the other day and he's like, as you get older, you don't have many firsts. Sure. So I'm obviously keeping. Keeping myself young.

[A]

Well, so let me ask you, is it by choice, is this by design? Have you been going after these or has it just kind of worked out that way? Because I can kind of relate. So I'm kind of curious to hear your kind of take on this, you know.

[B]

Yeah. I think you're not, I can't say by design. I think I've just really been following my heart and as you know, my faith's always really important to me. So I've just. Yeah. Been trying to listen and do what I feel God asks and that's just led down. Yeah. Just different roads. So one of the first was launching a leadership coaching business with two colleagues and friends. Yeah. And that's just. Yeah. Just have a love for, for people and leaders and. Yeah. I've always. I think the reason I went into business in the first place was to encourage people and see them be the best versions of themselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But yeah, I never, if you. Yeah. Never saw myself launching a leadership coaching business, but that's been cool.

[A]

And there you go, here we are.

[B]

Yeah. And then. Yeah, I think. Yeah. What, what I reached out to you tonight about was doing my first ever short documentary and I can tell you if you'd asked whether I would ever do that, I would have probably lost my house on that bet. Yeah, that's definitely, that's definitely new. But yeah, it's just been. Yeah, I don't think there's. It's just been following my heart and, and just opportunities kind of just come your way and yeah, it's just been carrying on in that vein and yeah, it's been. Yeah, I think it's quite daunting though, you know what I mean? Like, I think especially like doing new stuff, you kind of. Yeah, it is sometimes a little bit daunting. But I've kind of just adopted the philosophy that I'll just do my best everyday, wake up and do my best.

[A]

Yeah, no, I completely agree with you and I'm so glad you use that word because that's how it's felt for me too. And I too have had this upcoming year with a bunch of firsts and some of them have passed and have gone well. For me it's been more of working with others, which is not something I'm good at. I know that. And so I've been trying to branch out and the main reason for me was to kind of expand awareness about myself and my business, you know, so that was kind of the motivation. And it's funny. I'm sure you can relate to this, Rich. It came from. It's easy to say yes to things when you have downtime. So back in, you know, last year, end of the summer, I had just finished up work, workshop season, I had all this free time. I was just kind of enjoying the downtime. And then these opportunities started arising and I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll do that. I got the time. Yeah, I'll do this. Yeah, I got the time. And then some of this stuff was you in the coming year. So I'm like, yeah, sure, I got, I got the time, you know. And then all of a sudden I guess I didn't really fully pay attention to the scheduling of it all. And it all, a lot of it is kind of coming to fruition all at the same time. And now I'm over here going like, how do I do all this? It just feels so crazy. Daunting is a perfect word for it.

[B]

Yeah, I saw you in some like big photographic like thingy like with a whole bunch of other photographers. Was that one of them?

[A]

That was one of them. Yeah, it was. So this company out of Chicago puts these on. They've, they started it in Covid and it's just, it's an online photography conference built all around nature photography. So landscape, flowers, macro and then bird and wildlife and yeah, they had 50 photographers they brought together from all over the world doing these presentations over this, this long weekend and incredible event, you know. And so I had said yes to that and then I'm going to be working with that company in about a week and a half from now. I'm flying to Florida and doing an in bird photography conference where they got 100 people coming in and I've never done anything like that at that level and I'm so excited for it. I'm really looking forward to it. But it's just, it's a lot all of a sudden, you know, it's just a lot. And it turned my, my normally mellow chill down season into a lot of stuff going on and it's all good but it's just, it's a lot, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah it's, it's, it's interesting. Yeah. I think my whole life is just trying to make those things really fun because you can kind of ruin them by getting over excited and anxious, you know. Yeah. Like just see them as an opportunity to do what you do and do your best and really just enjoy the time and caring for the people in the conference and you know, focusing on the stuff that counts. But yeah, you'll be brilliant at that man. And yeah, so exciting that you have been branching out. That'll be great for the people attending.

[A]

Yes, thank you. And what this brings up a great question for me to ask you because I'm curious about your feeling on this because this is my experience with this kind of stuff, especially with something new is it feels like all of the lead up to it is where for me the sort of stress and potential anxiety and just amount of work comes in and then when the actual thing happens then it's a blast. Like the actual event of doing it, participating and all that is great. You're meeting new people, interacting with others, sharing knowledge, all that stuff, just wonderful. It's all the sort of prep that kind of just feels like the work part of it. Does that ring true to you or it.

[B]

It used to Ray. I used to get so anxious about like public speaking and yeah like would break out in hives.

[A]

Oh wow.

[B]

And I think like I didn't really break out in hives, I just got anxious. But like just so everyone knows. But I think, I think, yeah, I think I've just. Yeah. Taken a different approach. I think mine's been quite simple. Like, I just want to know that God wants me to go. And then I kind of go, well, what could go wrong? You know, Like, I'm just gonna go. And, Yeah, I find it a lot less. Yeah. I mean, it's not like I could worry, but I just choose not to. And so, like, I've really, like. Yeah, I've loved the. The kind of things that I've done, and, Yeah, I focused on. Yeah. Just why I go. You know, you want to care for people and encourage them and build their confidence, and, you know, when I really focus on that, I can't see it going wrong, you know? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's so skilled at that.

[B]

And I think it's also just realizing that if you do your best, it's like. I think it's. I don't know, maybe it was fear, pride, a mixture of that. That kind of, like, made me anxious, you know, because you don't want to embarrass yourself publicly or, like, mess up and. Yeah, I think I've just. I don't know. I've got better at dealing with that kind of stuff, you know, which makes it a lot more enjoyable. It doesn't mean I knock the lights out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I enjoy it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I enjoy the leader. Yeah. It's been a lifelong kind of. I think there's a. Yeah, they're, like, just learning to do that better, you know, because.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think my approach has very much been focusing on every day, I think being present and being present as a dad, you know, as a husband, and then present with the people that come across my path, you know, and that's. Yeah, there's always work to do during the day, but, like, you're just focusing on enjoying it, you know, not getting beyond myself, you know, to actually worrying about stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Getting better, you know, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, it has been. I've much more enjoyed talking publicly now, and actually, I really look forward to that when I. You know, when I really thought it's a good idea to go.

[A]

Yeah, I do, too. I have learned to really enjoy that, and I think, you know, I think a lot of that kind of stuff makes sense as well as. Just if you do it more, you get more comfortable and more confident in it. And, you know, you talk about it all the time, which is what you work with, with your mentorship students. And now this new leadership coaching business is building confidence. Right. Because when you have the confidence, it just feels okay. It feels okay. You. Those worries about other stuff certainly fall by the wayside. And I got asked to be one of the keynote speakers at this upcoming thing in person, and I'm so excited to do that because I've done it enough times now that I'm just like, yeah, this will be awesome. And I just got to put. I just finished putting the presentation together the other day, and I feel great about it, and I'm excited to see the images and share the images and the concepts and. Yeah, it just feels. In that regard, it all feels good.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you'll do so well. You're hard to just teach and share knowledge. Yeah. I mean, there's just no doubt. And sometimes you just need to hear that from others. You know, it's like, you're going to be awesome. You are awesome. Thanks. And, yeah, sometimes it's just small things, I realize, that just allow us to kind of be ourselves and be confident in those spaces. But, yeah, I mean, that would be awesome. Man, I wish I was going, but that's a long way to Florida.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I actually am visiting my sister in Seattle. Well, the whole family is going to go and visit my sister in Seattle. Yeah. So I will be doing the long trek. I think it's going to be like, 48 hours in transit, man.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. When is that happening? Like, what month is that happening? Is that soon or.

[B]

Yeah, so it will be yoga, summer or winter.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, yeah, I'm really excited. I'm even going to pack my camera, man. I might have some American birds and beetles. Oh, nice. My son loves beetles. We could be putting some stuff on Instagram from your neck of the woods.

[A]

When's the last time you've been to

[B]

the U.S. sure, it's been ages. I mean, I've been so many times before, but it's been quite a few years since I last was there. I used to visit my sister Lise in New York quite a bit, and then Los Angeles, and then I've traveled. I set up an office in Texas, in Dallas, when I was much younger. Yeah. So definitely I've explored a lot of the states, but I think it's been a few years since I've actually come. So, yeah, I'm excited

[A]

because that area is stunning up by Seattle is just. It's so gorgeous out of. You know, we travel all the time. Washington has become my favorite state. It's just the diversity there, the scenery, it's just incredible, so. I know.

[B]

Yeah. And then Bellingham, which is. Yeah. I mean, the Scenery looks incredible. And funny enough, my brother in law is a downhill mountain biker. Actually owns called Chris Line. Yeah, so like, I mean, I don't ride bikes, but when I saw you riding bikes and doing stuff, I was like, cool. Yeah, I got a brother in law that does that, but he does the crazy stuff where you like, yes, go.

[A]

Yeah, that's not me. I just try to keep my wheels on the ground. I can't afford to get injured.

[B]

Yeah, I saw your Arizona bike ride with your drone. I mean, magnificent.

[A]

Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I was just out this morning. It was a beautiful sunrise. Actually, I got up a little bit earlier today and just was. I was the only one out there on these trails, you know, you know the classic thing, Rich. When you just do that early morning sunrise thing, all the people seem to not be there, which is wonderful. And so I got to experience the sunrise out on the bike just cruising these areas. And it's kind of one of these rare occurrences in the desert. Right now we're in the desert here in Southern Arizona, but it's been such a rainy season that there's wildflowers everywhere. So the ground is carpeted in yellows and purples and it's just you, you kind of cruise through these certain areas and all of a sudden there's just this wash of color everywhere in the normally brown, gray desert. And it's just been stunning to experience.

[B]

Awesome. Yeah. I mean, that must just be magnificent. Have you had much chance to do photography?

[A]

Well, so that's the interesting thing, right? I've. I've been so kind of focused on just the biking part of it that I have been kind of ignoring the photography. And it just crossed my mind the other day I saw a post from somebody else on Instagram, I think, talking about this kind of how amazing the wildflowers are this year in all of these desert areas in the southwest of the US and how rare it is. And some of these areas, it's been 10 years since they've had flowers and stuff like that. So it kind of was a good thing for me to see because it kind of slapped me in the face and said rare things. You should really take advantage of this photographically. So the next two mornings I have set aside to just get out and see if I can photograph some birds in with these flowers and the scenery and stuff like that out here. Because I didn't, I don't want to just drive away because we have to leave in a couple days and not have even made an attempt. So, yes, I plan on Trying to make something happen.

[B]

Awesome. Yeah. But how cool that you get another hobby that just takes your mind off things. I think it's so important for just creativity and just to have something else that you love and kind of just gives you a break from, from you know, constantly taking photographs. But I agree, don't miss out on those wildflowers. Man, that sounds epic.

[A]

No, totally not. Totally not. Yeah. Do you have other hobbies that take you away from that? I mean, I know you have a family that's a big important more than a hobby that I don't have.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But any other things for you?

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think I've just been living vicariously through my son's hobbies and things that he really is interested in. So I've been playing way more cricket than I ever have in my adult years because my son is just loves cricket. So we've been playing lots of indoor cricket and yeah, so that's kind of become a hobby I guess because we have like proper competition and, and, and then he got into collecting beetles. He loves, yeah, he just loves beetles. He's loved them since he was tiny. And then I asked him whether he wanted to start working out what they were. And so we've just had this like epic 2 years of finding these ridiculous beetles. He's, he's literally found beetles that one had only been seen five times before ever and like the first photograph of a living specimen and some like they can't identify, they think they might be new to science. So like it's been like, it's been so.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

Yeah, I mean it is 11, so it's just. Yeah, it's amazing. Actually wrote a newsletter on it. It's just amazing when you're passionate and, and you know, you get encouraged to just go down that rabbit hole, you know, and see where it goes. And yeah, he's just done really cool stuff for an 11 year old. He's even friends with a dung beetle taxonomist. I've actually got a whole lot of specimens that we have to send him for scientific purposes and to put into their museum. I'm just thinking like how cool for old just to kind of see his passion do that. Well, yes, I guess those are very much, you know, I guess other hobbies. But yeah, I think photography probably still is a hobby for me, Ray. Like I still just love it, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think the kind of stuff that I do linked to photography is very much the teaching, the art, the creativity side of things. So I don't really? Yeah, you kind of do my hobby as sort of a. From a professional perspective. So, yeah, I still very much feels like a passion and a hobby. Although my third first for this year is I have a couple of mentorship participants who encouraged me to put together a signature trip. And so I am taking them to my favorite places in South Africa, which are both in the Drakensberg for probably two weeks. So we putting together the final details. Yeah, it's been a long time since I just felt from a heart perspective that I really wanted to do that. But yeah, I love these two individuals and. Yeah. Very bespoke. Yeah. Very different. Yeah. Would be. I am excited. I think it's a. It's the first time I've been excited for something like that because it is, I think, my. My passion. Yeah. I want it to remain my passion, but I think sharing these particular locations with people that I really care about and value and. Yeah, I think it would be epic. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, it sounds it. I'm sure it will be. I know you've shared just a little bit about some of those locations with myself and Emily in our talks of planning to come out there, which we still have to make happen. I know that I'm going to hold you to it. Yeah.

[B]

As soon as you make it.

[A]

Yes. There you go. Yeah, we got first things first. Yeah. Our year this year is just crazy. When we look ahead at our schedule, we're just like, we're bouncing from spot to spot and like, places Emily's going separate from me and the places I'm going separate from her and the places we're going together. And it's just. It's a crazy year. So we're looking forward to like a 2007 that's maybe a little bit more tame and. And planning just some. Some bigger trips like that. So. Absolutely, at some point we'll make it happen, but.

[B]

Yeah, that'd be awesome.

[A]

Yeah, that's going to be such a cool thing. And. Is it. Did you say. Do you know how many people are coming with you on this trip? It sounds like you're just keeping it small.

[B]

Very small. Just doing it for two people, logically, because we're going to do it in my vehicle. We're going to places that, you know, just really love. So we staying in the places that I would stay. It's just a very bespoke kind of, you know, go with a seventh generation South African and go to the places that he loves, you know, and it's like dirt tracks and, you know, going to Be quite adventurous. But yeah, yeah, I think it's got a lot to do. Just relationship, you know, is taking people that you've got strong relationships with and you can just be so frank and open about. I think I always am. But, like, you can just really tell them exactly what to expect, you know, and why you're going, why you love those places. And yeah, I think. I think that makes it exciting, you know, And I think especially just with going through the mentorship program with me, you also have the same vocabulary. So I think that's super helpful when you're sort of in the field together. And so it's not. It's as much about. Yeah. Going to the places I go to, but you've also got the same language to describe the shots and to kind of, you know, talk about what's going on in the field together, which I think would be really cool.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And there's almost. There's like a built in trust there, both just to be able to just like you said, be yourself, but also to help, you know, propel their photography, to push some people. Because I feel like, you know, if. If I have somebody come on a workshop with me as the client I never met, there's a. There's a sort of time period there of me trying to assess and you know, and just sometimes frankly ask, how much do you want to be pushed? You know, like, what direction do you want to go? Like, you got to figure all that out, but with a mentorship student. And I've had that same experience so many times where I've worked with somebody sometimes for years before they've worked in person with me and I've actually met them in person. But just like you said, there's such a comfort there and we already know how to interact and I know what their goals are in the direction they want to go. And then it's just like, bam, man. You can just get out in the field and. And it just works so nicely.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And you've got deep relationship, which I think is everything. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Well, I'll tell you how it goes. I think we still want to wrap up the details. Details. But I think, yeah, it is exciting and. And yeah, I think they're just places that I have such a deep love for. So I think quite excited just to share them with others. Yeah. Because I think quite difficult to go to them as a tourist. You know, just given South Africa, what people think about it and concerns and all of those kind of things and.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. I just think Obviously living here. I mean that. Yeah, I mean I know the farmers and you know, one of the areas we're going, I know the farmers around the, the nature reserve, you know, like, so it's nice. My, it makes it really cool.

[A]

Excellent. Well, let's jump back to one of the other firsts this year and I know it's one of the things I've been really anxious to hear about from you and that is this documentary. And can you just take us all the way back to the beginning? How did this come about?

[B]

Yeah, right. I mean it was just bizarre. It was award winning filmmaker, a man by the name of Johan Vermeulen got hold of me on email and he was doing a, his own sort of documentary on birds, sort of the folklore and so history of birds in South Africa. And he was like, I need to, well, I want to video a professional photographer in the field, you know, someone who's made his life about birds and specifically from a photography perspective. And he said could he come and film me? And yeah, I just thought that would be really boring. So I said, I was like, I really like the limelight as it is, but I thought that would be definitely boring, you know, just watching rich prance around the grasslands. And so I said that sounds cool, but could we go and do it at a place called Rosen's Nature Reserve, which has, I think it's about four. It had five pairs of the 25 pairs of critically endangered blue swallows that we have in this country.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so they are about to be listed in as endangered, you know, worldwide. But the ones that we get here, yeah, we've only got 25 pairs left. And I said, doesn't he want to come and tell the story about Rosens? Because I had quite a bit of history. Yeah, just got involved with him in covert times. I said, yeah, don't you want to just go and do that and we can tell a little bit of the story? And so he agreed. And so we went there for a day and spent time with my friend Nathan. Bam. When he became a friend and just told a little bit of the story. And then, yeah, so just chatting to Johan, he thought I wasn't the worst host he'd ever come across, which was a surprise to me. But I think it was just because I knew Nathan so well. So we were just, I guess just very chilled on camera together and just had a laugh and enjoyed telling the story. It was just more because we know each other really well and yeah, one thing led to another and kind of said, well, should we tell the story properly? You know, like, because we only had a day. He said, yeah, that sounded like a cool idea. He'd love to do it because. Yeah, just a love for one the birds, you know, just they are the most magnificent birds. Blue swallows, when you see them in the field, just their metallic blue and they've got these beautiful tail streamers and yeah, they're the lowest flying of all, like corundan, you know, swallows. And they live in what's called misspelled grassland, which is also critically endangered.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I think I've just probably fallen as much in love with misspelled grassland as I have with the birds because we've actually got some misspelled grassland, a very small section of it at my home here in Balgowan. And I think it's been just learning more and more about the grassland. Just the amount of endemic species you've got in it, from endangered chameleons to daisies that are found nowhere else to. Cool frogs. Just sharing experiences with my son and others in these just magnificent biomes. And yeah, it's just been such a special thing to show that off and showcase it and hopefully drive awareness and get people to hopefully fund some of the needed projects to look after both the birds and their habitats.

[A]

Absolutely, yeah.

[B]

But crazy, man. Yeah, I just started with just a random let's go and report.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And did you just say it was down the line?

[A]

Oh, okay. So did you say it was all done in one day or you, you were originally just meeting in one day and then it turned into a bigger project.

[B]

So it was one day, the original filming that we did. And I actually showed part of that when I went over to Australia to talk at a bird photography conference. But we haven't used any of that first day filming for the documentary. But what is crazy, we did all the filming in, I think it was four days.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And like, that's the most cool. Yeah, I mean, you gotta watch the documentary first before you say wow, Ray. Because the filmmaker definitely did an amazing job. But yeah, the host and the raiders still, the jury's out. But what was quite interesting is like, you know, when you think we just wanted to tell the story and we didn't really know how it was going to go. And obviously the biggest concern was, you know, you have four days and the documentary is about these incredible birds. And if you know misspelled grassland, it's called misspelled grassland because there's a lot of myths. So you can imagine your. Your filming days become quite Difficult at times because you can't, you know, past your hand. And so, like the. Yeah, the biggest thing was like, how on earth are we going to get the. The birds to play ball? Because, I mean, you can imagine they're critically endangered. There were only two pairs that had returned to the site the year we were filming. And it's like, how are we going to get good footage of the birds? Because I had arranged these amazing. Just friends and conservationists to come and talk about the swallows and help tell their story. So that was going to be okay, but, like, how are we going to get, like, decent foot? And I mean, I still remember just the moment of, like, I said, I think you need to go and get your long lens. Because he was shooting with his wide angle lens and obviously just filming me and we were just talking about the swallows. I just saw something was up between a pair of them and I said, I think you need to go and get your long lens. And it's a proper round trick. I mean, I think. I don't know how long it took exactly, but I reckon over an hour to go back, get his long lens and then trudge back in. It's heavy. And walk in the heat of the day to get to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, like, as he got back, we just. I think we got the first ever footage of these birds doing some stuff and we were like, I still remember his face because I literally put him down, set him up and yeah, we just caught this, like, once in a lifetime moment and he just looked back at me, not really knowing what had just happened. Yeah, yeah, it was one of those moments where I think. Sure. Like, I think what he. Yeah. What Gihan was able to achieve in the sort of four or five days he had is incredible. So, yeah, huge credit to him. Absolutely tight timelines, but hopefully we've done the birds and roselands and the misspelled grasslands justice. But, yeah, it was actually just wonderful spending time with such amazing people. We really did interview just wonderful conservationists.

[A]

Really cool, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So let me ask you this. With something like that, you know. Yeah. You're. You're trying to tell the story of the birds, but how much of it, in the end, whether on purpose or it just ends up being this way, is really about sort of like a human connection and awareness of these birds in these spaces. That is what really drives others to want to watch it. Right. Because if it was just footage of only the birds with. No, like you said, you brought in people to talk about this and, you know, they're filming you and all of that. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, is it almost just as important to have that humans element in a documentary like this that is really about the wildlife?

[B]

Yeah, I think my whole life is about relationships. I kind of see them as just so key. Right. And I think a lot of the documentary is actually just the importance of us connecting with nature.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And definitely with each other in nature and. Yeah, absolutely. Ray. I think it was. You'll see it when I Release it on the 10th of March and you'll kind of see how it starts. It was actually just, you know, it's a bit of a crazy story and it was the first time that I have ever experienced. You know, you kind of hear people talk about how photography makes a difference and can drive awareness and can get people to take action. But it was the first time I've ever seen my photographs do that, you know, and it was such a surreal and yeah, just amazing moment. You know, I really just signed up to go and photograph the birds to help out a friend of a friend. That's how it's started. And I laugh because I think, you know, I genuinely just heard, you know, the word blue swallows and I was kind of keen, you know, and that's how it started.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just to see that story unfold. And then, you know, I got just absolutely intrigued about these birds because they can't really tell you why they're disappearing and why they don't come back. And so I, I just got, I just got really interested and I guess you've known me a bit. I think my curiosity gets me to just ask question questions and dive down rabbit holes and go and find out stuff and yeah, I'm just, I'm curious. And so I just started learning about them and learning about the misspelled grasslands and yeah, just, it's still, it's an intriguing story and it's. Yeah, they're intriguing birds. I mean they live in these like dark depressions in the ground, you know, either sinkholes or, or aardvark burrows and. And they like build their nest in these dark spaces against sort of the edge of the, of the sinkhole hole. Which is like crazy, right? Because it rains so much. So the east gets washed down. Yeah, they get knocked off by like, you know, predators running into the hole. It's just like. So they've got so much going against them and then they can't work out like what's happened happening to them because they intra African migrants and so they're trying to work out, like, why aren't they coming back? Is it something that's happening at the, you know, wintering grounds? And so, yeah, it's a bit of a mystery and so like, yeah, I wanted to just ask people who have been monitoring them for 20 plus years and working with grasslands and with these birds and with all the challenges that go with it to kind of just get a sense of, you know, what's going on and what can we do to not only support them but also these incredible grasslands. And one of the, the most incredible things about them is they are only second to Feynbos from a biodiversity point of view. And Feynbos is a type of biome that we have in the Western Cape, which I think is worldwide, I think the most biodiverse sort of biome in the world. It's just got incredible endemism and, you know, other things going for it. And I didn't realize that Ms. Belt Grasslands were second to them and were, you know, equally just amazing. And I think, yeah, Joshua's love for beetles has kind of shown that like we, some of the beetles we found in Armispelt grassland are, have never been seen on inaturalists before. Some still trying to identify what are these Chrysalina beetles that he's found. And yeah, we just found such cool stuff, you know, and if you think about it, that these grasslands are critically endangered and that might not be there for like future generations. So, yeah, I think it's just been such a passion project and I think Johannes equally just absolutely adores birds and I mean he's been a soldier to do this because, you know, and at, you know, no cost, his time, his passion and you know, he's, he's had a, a little baby in the process and has gone through just lots of, you know, his own challenges and yeah, he's, he's been an absolute trooper and I think, yeah, at least from where I'm sitting, has done an amazing job and will hopefully just be spread a degree of awareness about these amazing places.

[A]

Yeah, and it's, you know, I love that you shared about the idea of photography, you know, wildlife and bird photography being used in conservation senses. And it's something that I think is becoming, I would say there's a lot more awareness around it amongst photographers. It's definitely kind of a rising tide, I see, of photographers mentioning it, photographers saying that they're conservation photographers, you know, just like labeling themselves that, which I think is a wonderful thing. But I very much agree with you in the respect that you know, I've done some small things myself to just donate photos to causes and different things like that, but in the end, it never really feels like a lot. It kind of is. I'm like, sure, I'm happy to donate these photos or a bit of time or whatever, but in the end, it kind of is hard to pinpoint what difference is this really making. And so I think it's so fascinating to hear you say this feels like one of the first times you really were able to kind of recognize and see very clearly, oh, my photography is making a difference in this particular cause. And I don't know. I don't know if there's much more to say about it, if you have anything to add to that. I just think that's a. That's a fascinating thing to hear because I feel like you've been. You've been around conservation efforts and ideas and causes before, and for you to say that this is the first time you've really kind of felt that and recognized it, I think says a lot, because I think so many other photographers can feel the same way of just like, what is this really doing? What am I doing here?

[B]

I think, Ray, it's such an interesting point. There's an interesting conversation to be had here, because I think part of the reason is your photographs, the impact they have doesn't get measured. You know, so likes on Instagram get maybe measured, but how they impact people's behavior, you know, and what it gets them to do, it's hard to measure that. And I think, you know, I've seen that in sort of doing commercial portfolios for lodges. I remember doing one of my first ones and. And you obviously just wanted to make sure I was adding more value than the lodge was paying. And one of the things we did is, well, why don't you give me commission for people that come and say that they came because of the photographs that I published, be it via a newsletter or online. And that was really interesting because you won't really get that feedback normally. Yeah, yeah, they put a cap on the commission, which ran out in, like, a few months.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And I realized then that actually, like, when you get someone that, you know, like, you as a professional really understands their birds and is really able to show off those birds, you know, in a way that's not necessarily how anyone can show off, and also has the reach of people who are interested in that topic and, you know, follow them because of whatever their authenticity or because they love what they love, that was interesting for me. You know, is to see that actually, like, what we do can really drive behavior and people to go to places. And then, yeah, this documentary was just on a. On another level of, I guess of seeing that, you know, just because it really counted. And, you know, I went written the entire documentary. But you'll kind of see from the beginning part just what role it played in Rosalind's story. It's a small part, but it did really help Nathan and his business in a time when he really needed the support. And yeah, I think it was just because he measured it, because he kind of needed to, because it was really a quite a desperate situation. Yeah. And so I wonder, like, I feel like, sure. Part of it is maybe not getting almost that ability to measure what your work does. And also not people not really appreciating it as much, if you know what I mean. Everyone just thinks like, well, it's just, so let's just get them for free. Or, you know, you know, they're just, anyone can take them or, you know, it doesn't matter who it is. And. And yeah, I think there's a bit of that. Right. You know, because it's like. Yeah. And I think. I think it does make a difference. And I think the type of photographs you take and the way you show them off and who shows them off and the, you know, who follows those people, I think can make a. Can make a big difference in these things. So, yeah, encouragement. Those who are trying, you know, and those who are trying to master their craft and are looking to make a difference, I can tell you it does. You know, maybe not as appreciated as you should be and maybe not getting to actually see the measurable results, but from my experience, there's no doubt that what we do and just our sharing of those images and our passion and our love and sharing the places that we love definitely drives behavior and awareness and does make a difference. If you think of tourism, you know, you just don't get to hear how many people went on your recommendation.

[A]

I think that, yeah, that's such a great point of just. It's just really tough to measure that kind of stuff. And, you know, there's another interesting phenomenon that happens, and I think it is just the nature of how online connected we all are as humans now, most of us anyway. And that is. I think people do think these things and they appreciate and they want to say thank you. It's just hard to. Because we all consume so much. So, you know, as a consumer of all of this stuff, even if you want to thank the person who shared it and captured something and created something, you'd be thanking them all day. You know, you'd be thanking people all day. And so the behavior kind of reverts to, I only reach out if it really, really, really made a difference, you know, And. But it doesn't mean that that difference wasn't any less important sometimes. And the best example I have of that kind of thing in my own life is so often, you know, I put out videos and podcasts and exactly what you and I are doing right here, and then I put it out there, and the only feedback I get is kind of the numbers that are tracked on this stuff of how many people have viewed or listened or whatever. Right? And if I look at that over the years, it's kind of always been sort of stagnated. It's like at a level, it doesn't really grow, it doesn't shrink. And for me, when I look at that, I'm just kind of like. I've just kind of. I'm stuck here at a plateau. But then. And this is the important part, then I'll get a message from somebody out of the blue, somebody I've never met, never spoken to, and I'll get a message that just says, thank you for putting this out and thank you for whatever it was, you know, and it could be about you and I having this conversation today. And then I get those messages, and, boy, in that moment, the numbers just don't matter at all. It doesn't matter what those numbers are. It's just like, oh, shit, there we go. I just. What I shared with the world and what I collaborated with other photographers and shared with the world impacted somebody in a positive way, whatever that impact was. And isn't that an amazing thing?

[B]

Yeah, no, right. 100%. And I think, yeah, let's just encourage all the photographers out there. You know, It's. I find that is. You don't. When you care for people, love someone, encourage someone. And if you, you know, if you take love to its extent, like you're not loving to get something in return, Right. And so you don't often get to see the result of that, you know, And I think so much of whether it's smiling or greeting someone or having a long conversation with them in the parking lot and just caring for them or seeing them and just sitting down next to them when no one's done that before, whatever it is, you know, you don't. I don't always get to see the impact of that, you know, and what that leaves behind or what that does for that one person. And I think that's. Yeah, it's kind of. Yeah, sometimes you do, though. And I think I kind of realized that there's a lot more impact we don't see. And. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think it's just. I love doing it for, you know, for the right reasons, but I think I realized that there's a lot of things that go unseen and we're never going to get to see and. Yeah, but it's like you say, I think just knowing that that happens every now and then and getting encouraged by someone just fuels that fire a lot more.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a reminder, at least for me. I try to remember those moments that somebody did say something and just realize there are so many more when somebody didn't, you know, and just like you said, like, most of what we're doing here is just simply because we love it, you know, because the reality is, yeah, if I didn't love doing this, I wouldn't be putting out this podcast. It's extra work, you know, I don't directly get paid for it. I don't directly get any sort of obvious benefit from doing this, this show, other than. And I'm guessing maybe just some more awareness out there and stuff like that. But the reality is, I love having these conversations with photographers like yourself. You know, it's just a great time. Like, we just get on those. We get on here and we talk about what we love. And especially with you, Rich, every single time I'm done, a conversation with you, whether it's recorded or not, I feel better. You elevate the people around you, you know, And. And so it's just like, yeah, why wouldn't I do this? You know? Of course.

[B]

Really? Like, yeah. It just feels so. The same way. I've. I've. I think life's just become more and more simple, man. It's like, you know, wake up and just. Yeah, care for people, love them, encourage them. And that makes for a really good day, man. Like, there's something really awesome about that. And I think the life in business and all of this has become so transactional, and it's not. It's relational, you know, And I see that with. I've had some coaching clients, and, like, we've become really deep friends, you know, I don't say that it's not. This coaching is not really the same as a friendship, but just a deep care and respect for one another. Sure. And just because, like, a contract ends, doesn't mean the relationship ends, you know. Correct. And so I think, yeah, maybe it's, it's a good thing to remind each other tonight is to just be more thankful and encouraging to the people that do inspire us online. You know, and I know you that do that with me and I try to do that with others is just to send them a thank you every now and then, you know, thank you for inspiring me and you know, and thank you for encouraging me and yeah, I think it's a big reminder for both of us to just do that more often because I think it is those moments that make such a big difference for us. And yeah, I think that's something that's really cool to be able to do for others.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Like sharing that stuff out is, is very important. So. March 10th release. That's exciting. How's it being released? How does everybody get to watch this?

[B]

So yeah, we just thought to do it. So we've created a YouTube page. You won't find it because it's hiding somewhere in the abyss, but just called it Blue Swallow Productions. So it will just be a once off YouTube page. Just because I thought. Yeah, we just both thought we didn't want it to be about us building our brands or pointing to someone's, you know, photographic page or YouTube channel. Although Johan's got a like an incredible following. We just thought it would be good to be neutral because it just, that's really what it's about is just getting people to watch this documentary and drive awareness for the birds and hopefully, you know, drive some funding to. We've chosen an awesome organization called the Conservation Heritage Trust which is. Yeah, one of the trustees is a guy called Kevin McCann who's the managing director of Conservation Outcomes and they are just a very well respected conservation organization and I know Kevin personally. Yeah, I just felt he was exactly the right person and the trust to make sure that the money goes to the most important stuff to look after the birds in the grasslands. And yeah, so we've just done. Yeah, just going to be a, a very once off YouTube channel and we're going to only have the documentary on it and so I will launch it through and through my newsletter which goes to a lot of people on the 10th and then I'll obviously I'll be doing just a few shorts. I've actually just got one short that I'll send out in the next few days just to wet everyone's appetite.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I'll send out a few posts. I won't be as good as everyone else on YouTube or social media because I'm not really used to this. So please send through any tips. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Don't ask me, Rich, do not ask me. We both have to find somebody good at that.

[B]

But I'm relying on, on other people like yourself in this podcast just to get the news out there. So anyone that's listening to us, I need a lot of help to drive awareness because I'm. But yeah. So just going to send out a newsletter. I'm sure Johan might do a post or two. But yeah, and obviously just leaning on friends like you and just some of my other international friends that I made over the years just to get it out there. Yeah. And so.

[A]

Well it's nice. It's such an easy, obvious place to go watch it, you know. So that I think is going to help a lot. You know, there's not a big barrier to be able to watch. So I love hearing that. It's just a simple YouTube thing.

[B]

Yeah. And we're not exactly National Geographic here. Although Johannes.

[A]

Yeah. You're nice.

[B]

You got to make some concessions when you're. You're hosting the radar as me. But yeah, I mean we're not going to take it too seriously. It's, it really is just. We're just trusting. We've done the, the birds and the, and the area justice and you're going to hear some of my like just people. I, I just really love and respect one of my wonderful mentorship participants on there, Dr. Melissa Whitecross and she's amazing. She that got a masters in grasslands and she'll be talking about the misspelled grasslands and how awesome they are. So you go just some beautiful people and yeah I love to hear your, your feedback but not being. Yeah. Being a first and not really knowing how to rate myself. Yeah I've just done my best and I know you'll be kind. I was just going to say bad or indifferent.

[A]

What was the experience like for you being on that side of the camera? Because you are, you're so funny. You're always so self deprecating about your of expertise and skills and, and, and everything you put out though always ends up and I think it really does come down to what you like, how you approach it all which is just being truly genuine to yourself and just trying to bring the joy and the fun into all the things that you do. I really do think it comes across and it looks wonderful but I, after going through it, how was the experience being on that side of the camera.

[B]

Camera.

[A]

Did you at least have some fun with it?

[B]

No, actually, like, the reason I signed up for the. The. The actual documentary part, you know, as opposed to the just the one day, is actually because I just really loved it. You know, I was talking to, you know, Nathan, who I just love Tippets. He's the most incredible man who's, like, literally educated thousands of kids about the importance of conservation. And he, you know, he's. He's a. Yeah, just an important part of our family. He loves my boy Joshua. He actually bought Joshua his first fly rod. So, you know, through this experience, we've become good friends. And, you know, he's got the most incredible heart. You just want your kids educated by him and cared for by him. He's just an amazing guy. So I think I just love that. And I think it was. Yeah, I didn't really notice that the camera was there because I was just hanging out and enjoying time with a friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yeah, I think that just encouraged me to do more of it. And I think it also helped that you said I wasn't terrible and kind of encouraged me that I. I could at least do a half job of it. And. And my wife seems to. To think we can release it. So. So far, so good. And I showed it to the people that were on it as well, and they've given the green light. So just looking in the right direction.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

But, yeah, it's just. It's just authentic. Like, I think, yeah, that was important for me just to. To be allowed to be me and. And allow everyone to be themselves and come up with something that at least. Yeah, I'm proud of. I guess I really am. I think it's cool.

[A]

Yeah. And that is nice, right? It is nice when you get to have that feeling of pride over something you created, because I think as a creative person, again, I am sure you can probably relate to this, but, you know, we put a lot of different stuff out into the world, and some of it, I think at least I'll speak for my own self, is sometimes I get to have that feeling of, wow, I really am proud of what I've put together here and what I've, you know, shared out with the world. And other times it's kind of like, all right, that maybe wasn't my best and, you know, like, whatever, move on, you know, just. We don't have that feeling every single time we put something out, you know, Know.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It's interesting for me. I mean, I Guess it hasn't even. Yeah, I don't know what it's going to do at the box office. Right. But I just think. Yeah, I think, yeah, I did my best and I think Johan's done, like, an incredible job, you know, with the time that he had and the resources, everyone did it at no cost. You know, there's no branding. We haven't asked for branding or someone to come on board, so we just kept it very real and. And just. Yeah, I'm interested to see how it goes, but I'm excited.

[A]

I can't wait.

[B]

Yeah. Well, thank you, Ray, and just so appreciate you having me on your podcast. I so appreciate these conversations. Always love chatting to you and. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for just being part of driving awareness for something that's, yeah. Been a labor of love and hopefully people will enjoy it, at least get a little bit of insight into, you know, what I love about where I live and some of the beautiful areas that I spend time in, you know.

[A]

Yeah. So. So this launches March 10th. Does. Do you take a huge break after that or what. What else is upcoming for you this year? I'm guessing not.

[B]

No, no, no. I mean, honestly, I haven't done, like, all the hard work. I had to do some narration stuff, which. Which I thought I was going to get a second go at, but he seemed to be happy with the first question. You know, when you send something off and you're like, I'm sure he's going to send it back and I'm going to get another go. You know, it got funny. But. No, no, it's been. It's been. Yeah, he's. He's been put in all the hard yards and. And I think it's just almost like, you know, it's. The stuff is easy. Just a few social media posts and I love writing, so I've already written the newsletter. Yeah. And then I'm actually. Am I going on a. I haven't really got. I've been doing a lot of, I think if, you know, just burning around my home. In fact, it's so funny. Like, I was looking at. I don't know if you do this, but for, like, competitions every year, I love entering wildlife photography. Yeah. I mean, it's just like one of those things that I just.

[A]

That's the only one I'm doing. Yeah.

[B]

I love the. Just love the competition and. And like, I've been doing it four years now and it's just. I just for, you know, for whatever reason you. You normally get your Dear John But I get quite a thrill if I get even shortlisted because it's just one of those competitions. This has got so much gravitational. That's. But, like, I looked at my images this year and, like, you know, you put 25 together because that's all you can submit. And I think 23 of them were like, literally a kilometer from my front door. So that kind of tells you how, like, how little, like, you know, projects and sort of going to wild places. I've been doing. Sure. But I'm actually going with some friends camping very soon after the. The launch. I'm not really a camper, but I really, like the guy invited me. So we're going to go camping and so you.

[A]

So you'll manage?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'll take one for the team, but so we're gonna go to a really cool birding spot. So I actually do a bit of photography there, not in my backyard, so I'm very excited about that. But, yeah, that's cool. Great. It's just seasons and I think this season for me is just being dad, husband and just loving walks around my home. And y' all got a few firsts, man. Just focused on, yeah, just the leadership coaching and then, you know, putting together the signature trip, which is quite exciting. Yeah. And I'll definitely know if it goes ahead and. And, yeah, gives. Give me more details as we go along. But, yeah, just. Just focusing on the stuff that's on my heart and. Yeah, one day at a time, man.

[A]

You know, I had an interesting conversation. I just recorded another podcast episode just a couple days ago with someone and we were talking about the. The contest thing and I, I. In. In that conversation, it kind of came up that I was. I almost kind of realized. I think there's almost more weight in getting shortlisted making it to the final round in these contests than actually placing. Because, you know, the placing part, right. They're picking three images per category. It's so subjective. The level is so good. I'm sure the judges got to struggle on picking that. Right. But making the short little list is kind of probably a little bit. I would guess, if I was judging that, I would guess it's a little bit easier to kind of say, listen, this is at the level where any, Anything, anything we choose here is a potential winner. That's why we're moving this into the final round. And then everything else, you know what, you're not quite there yet. You got a little bit more work to do, that kind of thing. And so just making it into that final round, I Think really does say a lot, you know, know.

[B]

Yeah, well, if it wasn't for that, I mean, you know, wouldn't keep the dream alive, right. You just be getting your, you know, every year, which would be quite discouraging. But yeah, yeah, I kind of see, you know, I think we both men to others and I just go, don't enter competitions for self esteem. Like build your confidence outside of them, you know, and who you are as an artist and be able to objectively assess your work as north of good, which I think is absolutely possible from a, from an art perspective. And then enter competitions because it's fun, you know, and it's like just because it's, it's lovely to get affirmation whether it's 10 years down the line or within your first year, you know, but just not get your self esteem from it. And I think, you know, obviously it's, it's like every artist is lovely to have a feedback loop and know that you're doing well. And I still remember getting shortlisted my first time in wildlife photography and it was, it was like such a cool feedback loop and yeah, I can't, I think I was putting too much weight on that, you know, because I hadn't been shortlisted, if you know what I mean. And I think that could have been a really big mistake because it doesn't mean that your images aren't beautiful and have a chance of winning. It's just such a high standard. I mean, you've got every top photographer in the world competing for that, you know, and I think, yeah, I've just kind of seen it as fun. I mean, this year was just interesting doing that from the perspective of literally only 1km from my front door, which is not exactly you should, you know, shortlisted from. And so, yeah, that was like, interesting like how that was going to go, you know, and how it would play out. And I think, yeah, so, you know, like this is what I said. So if I didn't get shortlisted or, you know, if I. Does that suddenly make me not a good photographer? So, you know, you just, yeah, you got to take, I think competitions just with a pinch of salt. And I just love the, the process of putting 25 images together every year, better at that and going like, why do I love that? And getting more objective in how I choose them and also, also learning like what the world loves and what juries love. Because if you think about it, it's somewhat democratic at some point. Yes. And so, you know, that's an interesting thing to kind of get your head Around. Right. So yeah, I always say to people, like, if you've got a judge or whatever, like jury of eight people, geez, four people could have voted you as the best in the world. Like that's 50% of the world that just chose your IM. Unfortunately, you're not going to win ever. I think that's a lot of like when you have a defined style as an artist and you love maybe, you know, certain genre or way of doing things, that's going to be quite challenging, you know, to, to kind of get picked. And I think that makes it quite exciting to kind of something that you love that eventually like eight jurors will also love. And you know, I think, think because it's easier when you get like a once in a lifetime moment that's never going to happen again to anyone ever. But that's probably only happen once or twice in your lifetime, you know, versus, you know, trying to, you know, achieve sort of recognition within the. Just the stuff that you really love. Like I loved your Kenyon Rin. Was it in?

[A]

Oh, yes, yes.

[B]

Epic canyon scene. And like, it's interesting for me, like, the deck is shortlisted, by the way, because. Because it be surprised if it didn't.

[A]

No, no. Yeah, that's why I shared it. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I guess it would have been for this year. Yeah. Because that's still happening. Yeah. So I mean, it's interesting. Like sometimes those are the ones just worth putting in again. Like I find out the conversation. It's like, wait a couple of years and put it in again and see what happens.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know what's so funny about that stuff too? Yeah, I just find it's so funny because of like what you just mentioned, especially if you have sort of a defined style and if that doesn't really match up with the majority of the judging, it's so funny to me every year, like, and I wonder if this, you experience this as well, which is, you know. Yeah, you, you narrowed down your 25 favorite photos or photos that you really are proud of and are ready to end enter and then you're still going to have your favorites out of that set, you know. So for me, let's say I had my favorite, you know, five photos. I'm just like, this is, this is the pinnacle of what I've been doing and working towards and everything. And then those never get picked. It's. Oh, and then I'm like head scratching. I'm like, out of all these that I put in, those are the ones they chose.

[B]

You are not alone. In that conversation.

[A]

So funny.

[B]

I do it with a Madam Will. And it's like. So actually we just start getting fun. We know the ones that, like, I know the ones he loves and he knows the ones that I love. And then we have ones that we call the World Will Love, which are very different to the ones that we love. They're always the ones that end up getting, you know, shortlisted or committed or doing really well. Because, yeah, you kind of know that there's certain, like, what the world loves. And so, yeah, I think that's, for me, is what I always say to people entering competitions. You know, if 50% of the world loves your image, that's really good. It's like, you're still an artist. There's still massive appreciation for that. But those, like, 100% ones. Yeah, you can kind of pick them when you've got them. Right. Because they kind of tick all the boxes. But, yeah, I think there's always this moment where maybe the ones that you love and what the worlds love will collide at some point.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I love that. It's like, yeah. The mystery of the subjectivity and just the favor that goes with that, you know, who knows? You know? But I look at the guys that win or the guys that have won, you know, more than once. I mean, there's just another level of just awesome there. I aspire to that level of awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, I think it's just. Yeah, I just enjoy it. But, yeah. Yeah. I think this year is going to be another. Like, I'm not. I'm going to have to scrape together my 25, and I think they're going to be largely within a 1km radius.

[A]

I mean, that's kind of cool, though. I think that's neat, right, because that also I. You know, I think you've probably taught this as well. It's like the concept of you don't have to travel to the most amazing locations to be able to create and capture some amazing wildlife photographs. It does help sometimes. Absolutely. You know, it can make it easier, but it can be done literally in your backyard if you put the time and vision into it.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that was the experiment. I think I did as well this year as I've done in previous years. I'm definitely going to get my Dear John letter, don't get me wrong. But, you know, it was still cool to you. Yeah. Get a short listing that's never made public, but it was cool. You know, that's awesome. And I think that's just it. I don't think you have to travel that far. I think, yeah, I've just pra's again, very simple. Like, just love what we do, you know.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It takes the shots that we love and use the opportunities that get presented. When you're out there, I just think, like, you know, I don't think it's easy to get. Get those shots that mean something that, that we love and that, you know, that even stand a chance. I just think they sure just require a lot of perseverance and grit and getting out there. And every now and then it happens, you know, and I've just been loving the creative process, you know, just through. Just walking close to my home.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And. And I really like when you mentioned too, the. The part of sort of curating your own to. To pick what to enter every year. I love that process as well. And I also love, you know, I don't know if you've ever done this, but I do. You know, I use Lightroom, so I have a collection of photos every year for the contest I've entered. And sometimes I'll go back and look at what I entered in the past, and it's interesting to see there's some. I'm like, okay, I would still enter that. And then there's so many others where I'm just like, oh, that's not at all. And it's not saying it's a bad photo. It's just not in line with my taste. And it's so interesting to look at those. Like, I think that sort of the history of my contest entries tells so much more of a story of my growth in taste and the direction of my preferences than just looking at my overall photo catalog. Because with that there's just. I shoot so much variety all the time. But when you look at, like, what I picked each year to enter into contests, it's like, man, I can see really where I was at at that time of year, you know?

[B]

Yeah, that's really cool. It's funny because I think, think. I think I've been entering since I think wildlife photography year, since 2019, and I think maybe I entered in 2018 or something like that. So that's what. That's eight years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yeah, when I look back, especially like bird photography, I think I entered the first ever bird photography. I can't remember.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And. And I think they still had it online. You know, it wasn't like it is now. And I look back at that and I mean, yeah, just like what I learned along the way, you know. Like, I was at that stage just cropping things, like in squares and whatever worked, you know. Yeah. And not that that's initially a bad thing, but I've kind of learned that you kind of want to keep to, you know, just standard 16 by nines or. Or just what's out the camera, you know, because that's then more authentic and more in camera. And I think that, like, counts, you know, if you look at, like, award books, you don't get too many squares. Not saying there's exception to every rule, you know, but I look at that and. And just the images that were good then, and it's awesome to look and just see how you've grown and also how your styles developed. You know, you've been.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

True to what you love and. And sort of branched off and gone deeper into certain areas and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I still see I'm changing so much, but. Yeah, I think the essence of just what I love is. Is still there. I've just. Yeah. Taking down different tributaries, I guess.

[A]

Absolutely. I'm looking at my. My Wildlife Photographer of the year 2017 entries, and that must have been the year that I discovered backlight, because pretty much every image was just, like, glowing in the sun, orange. You know, there's a consistent color scheme throughout the entirety with just like one or two images that have green sprinkled in.

[B]

And.

[A]

Yeah, it's just so. I mean, everything is close. Everything is just. There's, like one photo that shows habitat, you know, and it's just like, if I look at my current entries, I will almost never have a close photo because that's just where I'm at now. And it is such a fun thing to see the transformation that's happened there over the years.

[B]

No, that's so cool, Ray. But, yeah, I mean, just. Yeah. Just encourage you. And I think it is. It's good to encourage each other. You know, your images are definitely there. You know, it's just. Sure. I think it's just carrying on, doing what you love and pursuing entry competitions for the right reason and. Yeah. I mean, it's not always great not to get that sort of feedback loop, but. Yeah, I just think it's. It. It will come if it's meant to. It's kind of my approach, you know, and.

[A]

Oh, totally. Absolutely.

[B]

Exciting. Yeah. Even when I don't. And I had. I think it was one of the years. Was it last year, I think, was the first year in. Yeah. I think I didn't. I think I've had something commended in Bird Photograph of the year every year. Except I think maybe last year I didn't get one image commended.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, you know, it's going to be okay.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

It's just good to talk about that because it doesn't change who I am as a photographer and it's not going to change what I love and it's not going to change, you know, me getting back there and entering again, again. And it's just. Yeah. Just don't let it, don't do it for self esteem reasons. I think it's just do it because it's fun and it's interesting to see what they choose. And you know, every now and then a blind squirrel finds an acorn and it could be me and it could be you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Hey, Rich, with your, with your own sort of photographic style and the evolution of that, do you actively try to push that in a direction? Like, do you see. I guess I'm trying to think how to ask this. Does it just evolve naturally for you based on whatever you're just kind of interested in at the time or do you sort of have a spark of, oh, I really like this, something I've shot and I want to really lean in and go in that direction or is it some of both?

[B]

Yeah. I think where you get your inspiration from. Mine definitely comes from multiple sources. I think think part of what I like, it's good to know who you are and what you love, you know, to start with. Yeah. And so I, you know, a little bit. I love complexity and I realized that, you know, that's probably why I went into two birds in the environment. And instead of taking a more minimalistic approach, you'll notice like, I like kind of like the more complex and more interesting and can I make sense of it? You know, like. And we'll push the variety side of things more than most. So like, I think one, it's just because that's what I love. You get what I mean? Doesn't mean I don't appreciate other stuff. So I think I've got to know. Just I love those kind of deep storytelling images where you kind of find stuff out when you see it a second or third time. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah. So I think I've started to learn like what I love. And that doesn't mean I don't love a good portrait. I think I've learned to understand what makes a good portrait and what the world likes, you know, and those are great ways, once you achieve them, to enter them into Competitions. But, yeah, I think. I think the evolving of just learning what I love has been part. And then the inspirations come from multiple sources. I think learning art at, I guess, quite a bit deeper level than most, you know, and being really curious and watching art teachers teach art and, you know, analyzing master artists. Art, that's definitely been a major. A source of inspiration because you kind of learn. It gives yourself so many different tools, you know. So, one, you get inspired by different technical techniques, you know, camera techniques. Sure, that's one level of inspiration. Like, now I've learned how to do backlighting or, you know, whatever it is. Slow motion, you know, shutter speed. Yeah, those are all technical tools. But I found the art has really opened my eyes to, you know, more the how to make a pleasing image tools. And then, yeah, like, I always still get inspired by others, so, you know, I'll be inspired by some of the stuff that you're doing. I'll be inspired. I remember Ben hall was a huge inspiration for me. You know, just. I loved. I still love his images. I still remember even Alan Murphy when I was, like, starting photography, and I was just so taken back by how awesome his images were. I'm like, how do you do that? Yeah. And, you know, obviously, like, he does a lot of setup. I mean, he does some stuff outside of setups, but, like, just learning from setups. I've learned so much from his mastery of, like, the setup game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I think. And even, like, landscape photographers, where. Yeah. Just been inspired by some of the stuff that they've done, whether it's sun or whatever, or just unique compositions where it's just intrigued me. And then I've tried to find out, well, why do they work from an art perspective? So, yeah, I think I've. I think I've taken inspiration from so many different sources, but. But still try to remain true to what I love, if that makes sense. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it is the exact same thing, Rich. It's just chasing what brings me joy in the field. That's really what it is. You know, I. So many mentorship students come to me in the beginning, and not all, but so many of them, and they're like, I want a style, you know, like that. It's like a goal of theirs to have a style. And I think, in a way, I see that as such a kind of an incorrect approach to it of, like, this strong desire for a style that you're almost gonna maybe force it. And I've just always been a proponent of if you just keep chasing what you love and what brings you joy in your photography. Your style will show up eventually, even if it's not defined. And somebody's style might just be. I like to do it all, you know, and that's cool, right? You don't need to have a visually defined style to be a great wildlife photographer, you know, or to, to, to have quote unquote made it, you know. But it seems like so many photographers have this as a goal of like, I gotta have a style. And it's just kind of like maybe just don't force it and just let it evolve naturally. For some, that might just be very obvious from the beginning. This is what I love. This is where I like my photography to go. And then boom, within a year they have their own self defined style. And then for others, it may be a decade of playing around until it maybe evolves and maybe it doesn't. But I think either way that's okay. It's just better to let it just happen naturally or organically, you know?

[B]

Yeah, I love that. I mean, you'll love this. So when I start a mentorship program, I actually get people to send me five images that they love. But I make sure that I go, not what your neighbor loves, not what your wife loves or your husband loves, not what competitions. Love what you love. And it's interesting. And I just asked them to tell me about it, you know, why do they love it and what do they see in it and you know, just talk. And because I have a coaching background, it's really just like kind of stolen from coaching, you know, and I just ask lots of questions. And what's been fascinating is, I think because I can analyze art, you know, and I can see objectively why they love it. They don't know that themselves normally, you know, because they can't put it together in an objective sense, you know, they're just like, I love it. Yeah. But because I can kind of analyze and can see why they love it, I will then start bringing that out and going, well, it looks like you love this and this and this, you know, and that and this type of color scheme and. And what's fascinating for me is often when you love something, you normally actually have the intuitive gifting ability to love it, if you know what I mean. It's because you wouldn't recognize you love if you didn't have an intuition, a gut that you love it. Absolutely.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Being able to show them that that's actually like what you love. That's what I actually Said to them, I said, I think this could be your emerging style. It's emerging because your style is going to grow and morph. It's a journey, correct? Yeah. But these things that you love now and the things that you see now and the things that gives you joy now are very important part of who you are as an artist. And so I think what you say is really profound. Like, I think it comes from who you are uniquely what you love. And often that's where your intuition, your gut, and that is such an important part of that makes you you as an artist. And I must say, I love that every time, because it's almost just giving them a feel for, or what their style might be. You know, it's got to resonate with them. It's got to be something that continues to give them joy and love, but it gives them just a sense of exactly what they're asking you for. But they actually already have. It's just the confidence to know, actually. Okay, I didn't see that, but now that you've mentioned it, now that you pointed it out, now I can start, like, embracing that. And I always say to them, don't lose that, whatever you do. Absolutely, absolutely don't lose that. Because I've never seen someone's being the same. You know, some people might like harmonious color schemes, but then the other person would like something a little bit different, like horizontal, curved lines. They just love them, or pastel colors or whatever it is. You know, they just got certain things that they clearly love because it's in all of their, you know, four or five images. And, you know, like. And I just. I think it's so cool.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. And then, you know, on the flip side, I think it's always an unfortunate thing when I've, you know, and I've personally known some photographers that are like, this is the style I've become known for. And then they're afraid to venture out beyond that and explore further because of fear of losing an audience or disconnecting from the audience that loves them for that style. And they get locked in. And I just. I see that and I'm like, oh, that just. I feel. I feel so bad for anybody feeling that way like this. Out outside pressure to not explore and play and expand and grow in what they want to do, you know, And I just, again, I caution anybody to just try not to get to that point, because that seems. Seems really unfortunate to me.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I think that's why I have quite a few photographers that I would consider honestly better than me, you know, coming to me because it often has to do also just with a, like getting stuck, you know, and yeah, not really understanding objectively your style or who you are and who you become and you are not knowing how to, how to almost develop that style. You know what I mean? Keep true to yourself, but be able to branch out and use different techniques and different stuff and still keep true to yourself. And so you get a bit stuck because you become so confident and you've got so much recognition from like what made you successful or whatever.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then it's very difficult to then know because you still don't know why you love what you love. You know what I mean? You got a sense, but you don't have confidence. So then you reluctant to kind of go outside of that space. Right. Because it's, it's, it's kind of unknown, you know, like, could you fail? So I find that really interesting. It's just helping. Yeah, helping individuals like almost build confidence in that space, you know, because they're obviously just very intuitive. Got so much recognition from the intuition and they're just natural ability, but then got stuck, you know, because now I'm known for this and now how do I branch out? Yeah, that's an interesting one. Right. And yeah, also like, I think, yeah, it's so lovely to encourage people to be true to who they are and what they love.

[A]

Absolutely, man. I think that's a wonderful way to end our conversation. And again, for everybody listening, March 10, get ready for it. The documentary of the year. It's coming out. We're going to be excited to see it.

[B]

I'm definitely going to share it again.

[A]

Yeah, no, I'll definitely be sharing it. I'll be sharing it. I'll. I'm gonna share it on my website

[B]

as well and watch it first.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

thanks, Ray. Thanks so much for the conversation and having. Oh, as always, love to Emily and you guys and thank you, man.

[A]

You're very welcome. Thanks everybody for listening. Catch you on the next episode. Hey, this is Ray Hennessy. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode. Please subscribe and your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.