252: Richard Campion

Summary

Wildlife Photo Chat — Episode 252

Guest: Richard Campion
Host: Ray Hennessy
Date: March 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this rich, candid episode, longtime friends and professional wildlife photographers Ray Hennessy and Richard “Rich” Campion dive into the creative and practical realities of building a life around wildlife photography. Five years after his first appearance, Rich returns to reflect on his transition to full-time photography, the challenge of maintaining passion amidst routine, the evolving demands of clients and social media, and why the experience behind the images often outweighs the photos themselves.

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Major Themes and Insights

1. Five Years of Growth and Creative Evolution

• Transition to Full-Time Photography

  • Rich recalls leaving his job in finance, buying a campground, and starting with just a few one-on-one workshops.
  • (01:48, Rich) “I left my job in finance in October, bought a campground... It wasn't until about the February March where I started doing my first one on one workshops… I was kind of like, I’m just going to run with it, see how this goes.”

• The Highs and Lows of Being Self-Employed

  • Both discuss the up-and-down nature of freelance creative work and how comparing “where you are” to “where you were” can be both motivating and comforting.
  • (00:37, Rich) “Sometimes you just focus so much on how far you want to get that you forget to look at how far you’ve come.”

2. Rekindling Joy and Avoiding Burnout

• Passion vs. Work

  • The frequent risk in turning passion into profession; at times, photography feels like “just work.”
  • (03:23, Ray) “A lot of what I was doing was feeling too much like work and I was starting to lose the fun… Every outing is a scouting trip… I had lost the ability to shoot for myself.”

• Breaking the Rut

  • Strategies: switch up gear/technique, change subjects/locations, or intentionally step back to return with fresh eyes.
  • (06:17, Rich) “Sometimes you probably just need to either mix things up, change how you’re shooting that subject or just step away from it for a bit.”

• The Importance of Hobbies Outside Photography

  • Ray discusses mountain biking as essential for balance and keeping things fresh.
  • (09:29, Ray) “I can’t do this every day. I just can’t...if I do, I just get tired of it and I need something else mixed in there.”

3. Working with Challenging Conditions & Adventure

• Physically Demanding Outings

  • Rich describes photographing ptarmigan in harsh, freezing mountains and the satisfaction it brings—even when it means missing a shot because of frozen gear.
  • (12:16, Rich) “The light was killer, the subjects were there, and I didn’t even get my camera out of the bag. What’s going on?...Then the battery started to go low…I couldn’t open the battery door, frozen shut…by the time I did, the bird had moved out of the scene.”

• Adding Value Beyond Photos

  • Crafting trips as full experiences: good food, company, adventure—especially crucial when wildlife is elusive.
  • (17:02, Rich) “If you can create a good day out, the photography almost becomes...not the least important bit, but it’s about the whole package.”

• Client Experience: Adventure as Reward

  • Both agree that the challenge and adventure of getting the shot creates far more lasting memories for participants.
  • (16:15, Ray) “When you make it an adventure for them, it’s just more fun and it’s more rewarding for them.”

4. Guiding Photographers and Managing Expectations

• Balancing Clients’ Desires with Wild Nature

  • The tension between wanting clients to get the perfect shot and managing the realities of wildlife.
  • (20:58, Ray) “When it doesn’t work out, it’s just so hard to let that go, you know. It’s just so hard to be like, oh yeah, it’s wildlife. I’m like, yeah, but you’re paying me a lot of money. I want this to happen.”

• Patience and Trust in Fieldcraft

  • Teaching newcomers to sit tight and trust their guide’s experience.
  • (24:07, Ray) “It’s so damn hard to just sit tight and wait versus going out and searching...It drives me mad in those moments.”

• Imposter Syndrome and Confidence

  • Both share stories of second-guessing early on and the gradual growth of confidence with experience.
  • (24:07, Rich) “You kind of think, hey, these people have booked with me—did they think I was someone else?”

• The Value of Recce (Scouting) and Long-Term Approach

  • Rich emphasizes joy in finding new locations and putting in the time (rather than just seeking instant results).
  • (26:35, Rich) “One of the things I enjoy most actually about wildlife photography is just wrecking locations.”

5. The Social Media Conundrum

• AI, Editing, and Authenticity

  • Both discuss the rise of AI, over-editing, and how this affects expectations, especially among newer photographers.

  • (29:00, Rich) “People are just wanting instant gratification…It’s a pity.”

  • Ray explains why he shares RAW files: to show authenticity and transparency in an age of deep editing and AI skepticism.

  • (33:02, Ray) “There was two parts of me sharing that RAW file… Number one is to show…you can do most of this in camera... And the other part of it was...a wonderful way to show I’m not using any of that. This is real.”

• Liberation from Social Pressures

  • Both feel it’s freeing to shoot for themselves and share work selectively.
  • (38:18, Rich) “It’s been so liberating just posting what I want, posting what I want... No more posting for likes.”

6. Diving Deep with Favorite Subjects

• Repeat Work with the Same Species

  • Rich’s ongoing obsession: the dipper. He’s continually seeking new compositions, perspectives, and behaviors, despite a decade with this bird.

  • (46:55, Rich) “It’s still the dipper… There’s just so much more I could do with this bird. And I just need…”

  • Aspirations: better environmental images, behavior, split-frame water scenes, and perfecting compositions affected by river conditions.

  • (49:50, Rich) “If I had more water, it’s going to give me faster water behind...And it also means that I can clean this foreground up...So those were two of the main things.”

  • The never-ending search for “the shot”:

  • (50:02, Ray) “Anybody, any photographer, would be so proud to have that. And you’re like, yeah, not good enough. I got some other ideas, I can improve on it…”

• Stories and Wildlife Drama

  • Rich describes extraordinary wildlife moments, like a dipper nest being attacked by a stoat and the emotional rollercoaster he felt watching nature’s dramas play out.
  • (52:19–55:33) Notable, heartstring-pulling story of heartbreak (his, not the bird’s) when a male dipper instantly replaces a lost mate:
  • (53:53, Rich) “The guy hadn’t even waited 12 hours before he brought in a new female… So there’s me spending 12 hours heartbroken for this guy. He did not give a hoot.”

7. The Future & Evolving the Business

• New Directions and Growth

  • Expanding tours, collaborating with other photographers, and considering new, farther destinations like Norway.
  • (62:48, Rich) “Continue doing what I do, but…introducing a couple more tours, perhaps working with other photographers..."

• Building Community Off Social Media

  • Rich is creating a membership section on his website for deeper connection—regular videos, group chats, competitions.
  • (66:02, Rich) “I want to be more consistent with that, but without some of the stuff that comes with social media...So I thought this would be a great place to upload those videos regularly…but keep it to a smaller community.”

• Why Experience Matters Most

  • Prioritizing the overall journey for clients (adventure, camaraderie, teaching moments) over just “getting the shot.”
  • (69:57, Rich) “I want to have what I offer just completely dialed in…rather than just saying I could fly people off to these places…for me, just the whole experience and the getting people out in the element search of stuff is what I enjoy.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On creative ruts and returning passion:

  • “You just have to step back sometimes and go, man, we’re blessed to do what we do for a living.” (03:23, Rich)

• On authenticity and AI:

  • “There’s so much of that shortcut mentality…Who gives a shit how you took the photo? …That’s really sad. It’s a loss of craft, it’s a loss of caring.” (29:09, Ray)

• On teaching and mentorship:

  • “The feeling when you feel like you can offer value…being able to offer that to other people and see them appreciate it—it’s such a dealing.” (68:33, Rich)

• On perfect images and perpetual learning:

  • “If you think you’ve completed it…you're in the wrong game. You never want to be the smartest one in the room.” (50:28, Rich)

• Wildlife drama:

  • “He didn’t even wait 12 hours before he brought in a new female…” (53:53, Rich on the dipper post-stoat attack)

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Key Timestamps

• [00:12] — Five years since Rich’s last appearance; reflecting on growth
• [03:23] — How making photography a job can dampen enjoyment
• [06:17] — The value in mixing up technique, gear, or subjects
• [09:29] — Integrating other hobbies (mountain biking) to stay motivated
• [11:16] — Harsh conditions & the adventure of wildlife shoots
• [17:33] — Evolution of workshops to full experiences/holidays
• [20:58] — The pressure of client expectations and “damage control”
• [24:07] — Patience, trust, and managing group dynamics
• [29:00–34:38] — AI and authenticity in modern wildlife photography
• [38:18] — Liberating self from the pressure to create for social media
• [46:55] — Rich’s ongoing creative pursuit with dippers
• [52:19–55:33] — Rich’s gripping stoat-and-dipper behavior story
• [62:48] — Looking to expand tours, build an exclusive online community
• [66:02] — Shifting educational and community efforts away from social platforms

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Where to Follow Richard Campion

• Website: richardcampionphotography.com
• Instagram: @mywildlifeimages (occasional updates)
• Member community: Currently in development for deeper interaction and learning experiences

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Closing

An inspiring, conversational look into the realities of creative life, this episode is a must-listen for wildlife photographers or any creative professional seeking longevity, balance, and authenticity in their work. Both Rich and Ray emphasize the unmatched reward of the experience—the adventure, the process, the stories—over the image alone.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Wildlife Photo Chat. I am pleased to have back on the show for a second time, Rich Campion. Rich, how's it going?

[B]

Oh, dude, so good. It's so, so nice to be back.

[A]

It is, yeah. And you know, it's so funny, we were just talking before we hit record. Five years, you said it's been since you've been on the show. It just seems like it shouldn't be that long.

[B]

You know what? It's crazy. Just over five years. I had to look back because I had to like double check that I. I'd got that right. Because it's just absolutely flown half a decade, Ray of our lives and yeah, it's crazy.

[A]

I know. And like you said, we're still doing it, man. We're hanging in there.

[B]

Oh, It's, it's mad. Like I haven't listened back to the episode for a long time, but there was a period, I don't know, maybe I was about a year, two years into doing this and you'd, I'd have some, you know, some quiet patches and you'd be, you know, you keep self employed. It's up and down sometimes and you start to like, probably overthink it and worry sometimes. And I remember like going for a walk, listening back to the show and I was like, man, I've actually come a really long way. Sometimes you just focus so much on how far you want to get that you forget to look at how far you've come, you know? And it was just really nice to like listen back and go, wow, this started as a bit of a dream. Five years later, both of us still doing it for you longer. But yeah, it's amazing.

[A]

And do you remember since you listened to that episode more recently, were you full time when we recorded that or was it just you were getting ready to make that move? I can't remember if you just had made the move or you were getting ready to.

[B]

Exactly that. So I left my job in finance. I think we spoke in the January, February. I left my job in finance in October, bought a campground. I know this sounds familiar for you, right? And just, yeah, just started working on my portfolio and it wasn't until about the February March where I started doing my first like one on one workshops, which was working with like the local difference. So, yeah, when we spoke, I think I'd done like three one on one workshops.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I was kind of like, I'm just going to run with it, see how this goes. And yeah, yeah, it's, it's it's just been incredible, really, to see, see it develop.

[A]

That's so awesome, man. And what a wonderful thing. I'm sure you can relate to be able to do this for a job, it's just incredible. And it has its challenges, no doubt, but in the end, they're usually pretty much worth it, I would say.

[B]

You kind of just have to step back, don't you? Because one of the things I find is that you can, especially if you want some. If you, if you want to do well, and by that I mean provide a good service. You never really take your foot off the gas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I don't think it really matters what you do. There's definitely days where it's. It feels like work, and then those are the times where sometimes I'll just ditch the camera for a bit and just focus on another, you know, if I don't have to be out of the camera, just have a few days where I'm not thinking about it. And then you kind of, you start getting that itch again where you're desperate to get back out with the camera and it kind of, you know, you get like, enthusiastic all over again. So you just have to step back sometimes. Don't you think, man? We're blessed to do what we do for a living.

[A]

Absolutely. But you know what, That's a great point, man, because I definitely had that. I would say probably, I would guess like end of year two into year three, where a lot of what I was doing was feeling too much like work and I was starting to lose the fun of wildlife photography. And I still was grateful that this was my job. It was still my favorite job that I've ever had in my life. But it was kind of sad at that period of time that it was feeling like, man, photography is just not as fun anymore because it's all just work related. It's all focused on, you know, every outing is a scouting trip. Every outing is trying to plan for someone else to be able to get the photos. And it felt like I had lost the ability to shoot for myself, really. And then thankfully I was able to kind of find a better balance and bring that joy back in. But that was a huge challenge for me. Is that something you went through or have gone through at some point?

[B]

Yeah. But it's important for me to stress at this point that you work a lot harder than I do, dude. Like, it's like, I don't know about that. You do your videos, your podcasts, you're consistent with it. I go Away. I do my trips and I get out and then I do my recce and stuff. But I tend to work with the same things. It actually, like, ties quite nicely to the chat you and Brown having. You know, just like you're talking about work with the same subjects. Are you thinking about compositions before you leave the house and stuff? And I guess we could come on to that, but I, I think for me, working with the same subjects all the time and yeah, I definitely experienced that. And I think that's where you really have to start thinking about how you can shoot differently.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're going to the same locations season after season, working with the same subjects. You know, I think like, it was someone's definition of insanity, wasn't it? Just doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. So, yeah, yeah, I, I def. I find myself feeling a little bit like that maybe it's time for like a different lens or maybe it's time for just a different perspective or perhaps even just walk away from that subject altogether for a season. Yeah, so I have done that before where I just stop offering those workshops because I'm like, I'm just not feeling it. There's been times where I've been on location and I've like, voice noted my wife and been like, the light was killer this morning. Like, the subjects were there and I didn't even get my camera out of the bag. Like, what's going on? And she said, ah. She was like, were you going to get anything different to what you've had before? You know, she kind of, she. She knows how my brain works. But I'd be like, really getting in my head about it going, does this mean I don't enjoy photography anymore? And actually it just means you need. Probably just need to either mix things up, change, change how you're shooting that subject or just, just step away from it for a bit.

[A]

Absolutely, dude. That's exactly what's done it for me, you know, that's what's brought that passion back. And I've totally had that fear, man, of like, oh, no, am I losing it? Am I losing the passion for this? Am I not gonna work hard at this anymore? Even just in my own fun photography? Not when I'm working. And then thankfully, it always comes back and it's like kind of a sigh of relief, just, ha, okay. It's still there. I'm still excited, you know.

[B]

And do you find that sharing that with other photographers who are your friends, like, via WhatsApp chats or whatever, just Kind of keeps you inspired as well. I've got a couple of friends that are like professional wildlife photographers. They don't even need to be professional, actually, whose work inspired me and being able to have those kind of conversations with them privately and. And kind of encourage people, like send. Basically just sending them, like, photos that I've taken or projects that I'm working on and bouncing ideas off each other, that kind of thing keeps me super inspired as well.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's. I think that's just a big part of it, you know, like you said, Rich, you know, doing the same thing, and you certainly are doing that far more than me. I have the luxury of being able to just travel all over the US And Canada and see a lot of stuff and slowly adding more and more, you know, destination, like international things. So I'm seeing new stuff a lot, and that is a huge part of keeping it fresh and exciting for myself. And so I definitely appreciate any photographer that's a little bit more consistent with shooting the same subject, same locations, but being able to recognize, like you said earlier, hey, it's time to mix this up. Whether that be new gear, new technique, just totally new approach, versus I'm just going to keep doing the same thing. And I think there are some people where it's just totally fine to just go do the same thing, and they're just happy with it and still having fun and it brings them joy and they can just do the same thing over and over again for years, and there's nothing wrong with that. But then there's the others, like ourselves, I think, where it just doesn't work. We just get bored too fast with that.

[B]

Yeah. And I've noticed it in myself, you know, since being much, much younger. Just like any kind of hobbies I've had, if I burn out and I don't recognize it, I can just. I can completely drop that hobby out, fortunately, because this is work. I don't think that's necessarily the reason, but I. It's kind of. It forces the hand, doesn't it? So it keep. It keeps you kind of thinking about how you can keep yourself motivated. But there's been, like, hobbies growing up where I've just. Yeah, you burn out and then that one just falls by the wayside and you move on to the next thing, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that's just part of a person. Yeah. I think that's a personality trait, isn't it, that people have.

[A]

I would agree. Yeah. And that's been a Big part of keeping things fresh for me is having a second hobby. You know, I. Maybe about four years ago I got really into mountain biking and I still am, you know, like right now I just got to this destination. I was here about a month ago and I just flew back from Florida, doing a big bird photography convention there. And I'm back at the same spot. There's all these. There's just tons of waterfowl in this lake out here. And I've been here two days and I haven't even touched the camera yet because I've just been out riding.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, because I just came off of a week of non stop teaching and shooting and everything. So I'm just like, you know what, I just need a couple days and I'm already excited to go out tomorrow morning and I'm already planning my outing tomorrow morning and I'm going to get back to it. But it was just, I think the reality is, at least for me, I can't do this every day. I just can't. And I love the fact that I have the option to because it's my job. And if I want, I can go photograph every day. But what I've learned is if I do, I just get tired of it and I need something else mixed in there. Yeah.

[B]

And honestly, like some of the places that you guys are staying, like being out on those trails, on those bikes just must be so fun.

[A]

It's so fun. Yeah. And that's the thing. It still gets me out. I'm still in nature. I'm still enjoying a sunrise or sunset and getting some exercise so I can stay fit enough to keep going and doing these jobs that I want to do. So I don't, you know, like. Because the reality is, at least for most of my wildlife photography, it's not very physical, you know, like we just. I'm kind of waiting for birds and just sitting around a lot. And so I need something else to kind of just not, you know, fade away and be able to not do these things as I age.

[B]

Do you know what's mad about you saying that, about just waiting around? It's not very physical. It's like you look at the, the landscape that you're photographing a lot of these subjects, and it looks like it would be an absolute nightmare to get to some of them when you're looking at the backdrop. So, for example, like, let's say like the willow ptarmigan, for example, how hard you have to work to get near a bird like that.

[A]

Oh, we just, when I'M working in Alaska. We just like drive up and walk like 20ft and they're just like on the side of the road.

[B]

So that's just crazy.

[A]

And like it's a little different for you, isn't it?

[B]

Oh, dude. Like the last photography outing I had was for ptarmigan and it was like, it was like minus 10, but it was like blowing cold in the wind. It was brutal. Like if you're. If your gloves. I don't really need to drum right up, but it was cold and yeah. And you're walking for like two hours up a mountain in the snow and you're just hoping. You hear a call and you just pray and you hear that croak and, and hey look, it was amazing. And we. And it was probably one of the best sessions I've had with the camera in years. But it was hard, hard work, you know, with the spin drift of all the snow like blowing in your face and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh gee. Do you know what was so annoying though? So I was. So I was on this, this, this bird for a while and I was the 100400 on. I was just trying to get some environmental shots and sure I spent so much time that this bird was completely tolerant of me being there because they can be quite skittish up there because they're not really that used to seeing people.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so I spent ages just persevering the conditions to try and get this like this image of a. A time again small in the frame so you guys would appreciate that with, with like, with like the Kangorms range in the background. So I was like just need to wait, just need to wait. Just need to wait. And my battery started to go low and I was like, well I need to change the battery before this tarmac gets up and moves slightly to the left of the rocks. I planned the composition. I was like I need that rock out of the way for this to like work. Yeah. So I'd made the distance, done everything right. I was lying there waiting, started to go low because of the conditions and dude, I'm not even joking. I couldn't open the fingered frozen shut. So I couldn't open the. I was fuming and no one of a lie. What happened? I couldn't open it. The battery and the bird got up and just started walking towards me so it would have appeared larger in the frame everyone. And I couldn't shoot it because I just couldn't get the battery thing open. By the time I did, the bird had moved out of the scene. Ah, yeah. And there you go. And you just drive up to them.

[A]

Yeah. That's nuts. Well, you know what? I'm not doing it in winter. That's. That's another big challenge. Or what makes it easier, I should say, is I'm usually working with them in the spring. I haven't done the winter thing, which I would love to do because it does look awesome in the snow. And aside from those moments where your battery door freezes when the bird goes in the perfect spot, that challenge has got to be part of the fun though, right? I mean, it always is for me, Ray.

[B]

Like, it's, it's, it's everything to me that's like. Yeah, that, that, that was my last day of my season. So I'd been up in the, the Cairngorms running a series of tours and I don't offer that as a workshop as part of my tour because it's physically pretty, pretty demanding and there's like safety aspects to it and stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I, I just, I. The type of person I am, I would worry I'd be anxious every single morning before taking people off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the weather's so unpredictable up there anyways. But so for me, it was amazing because I just done like a few solid weeks of back to back stuff, like take people out doing, doing various things. And I was like, on my last day when the last group leave, I'm gonna head up the hill and try and get on some time again. And it was just so rewarding. The conditions were just gnarly. You feel like you're really out there. I ate my body weight and sugar and rubbish up on the hill. Just like flask of coffee and. Yeah. And getting on. Yeah, I managed to get on, I think like four or five different, different like individuals, like, so I was really able to work on like a whole, like, range of images. Yeah. Before I had to get down because. Because the spin drift was coming so quick. Says I probably had a bit more light to play with, but I was losing the trail. I couldn't see the trail because it was all blown over. So I was like, yeah, got it, got to get back. But once I got back down to the car and started warming up, I was like, oh, that's, that's just the best feeling in the world. Just. I love it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I definitely have some things where I push myself and my clients a little bit more. You know, I'm about to go and do this Hawaii workshop where we have to hike in. You know, I'm Taking a small group, we hike in an hour, hike along these, you know, along the shoreline till we get to the seabird colony. And then we stay well past sunset so that we're doing the whole hike out in the dark. And, you know, it's not the craziest thing, but it, you know, it pushes everybody, you know, and I think doing that, I. In a way, I think for each photographer, it makes the images feel better if they feel more rewarding because you had to work for them. And I know it technically doesn't make the photos better, you know, because if you show them to someone else and they didn't know the hardship you went through, they don't care. They're just like, it's either a good photo or bad photo. Right. But at least for the, the people attending these things, and I'm sure you can relate to this, when you make it an adventure for them, it's just more fun and it's more rewarding for them. And that's a wonderful thing. Like, that's part of it as well, wouldn't you say?

[B]

I couldn't agree more. Like, it's just, it's the whole experience. And you know, the best thing about that is if you can create a good day out, the photography almost becomes. Yeah, I don't want to say the least important bit, but. But it's, it's about the whole package, isn't it? That's been my, that's been my experience. Like, we cater, we. So we, we rent a house, we. We do breakfast, lunch and evening meals and all those little details or, you know, the meals that you're cooking, sitting by the fire, editing together. Yeah, those kind of things. If you get all of them right, if you have a day where the wildlife's been, typical wildlife, then it doesn't leave people feeling up because they're still having a good time, you know.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that, I think if we get that feeling when we're hiking or working hard for an image, there's no doubt other people are going to get it too.

[A]

Of course. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So has that been from the beginning, when you first started doing this, taking people out and doing these, even the private one on ones, and now, you know, some of the other ones, other workshops that you're doing and tours, has that always been a big part of it or has that been kind of an evolution to, to make it this big, grand experience?

[B]

Yeah, so probably the latter. So we, I started off by just doing local one on one stuff and then we Took a trip over to Norway, me and my wife. And yeah, we just cruised around Norway for a month and nice. We. We stayed with a guide and his wife and they. They. They basically offered us what we now kind of offer in terms of like the experience, the catering, the hospitality. And then we went out in the day. Photos to graph in, like hick meows and musk oxen and things like this. Yeah. But. But what we came away realizing was I didn't really care about the images, you know, honestly, I mean, that I didn't. I made friends for life. And just the experience, like the food, everything, like, experience in the different culture and stuff, it was just incredible. And that's kind of. When we came home, we were like, well, maybe we could do this slightly differently. And yeah, we just worked. Just me and my wife just worked as a. As a team, just to give people more of like a holiday.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. Then just. Hey, I don't want this to sound like a sales pitch. Does this sound like a sales pitch?

[A]

No, no, not at all. No. This is what. But I'm like, I'm curious about this kind of aspect of it because that's exactly what I've done, you know, and it's been. It's been so rewarding both for myself and I think for the people that are joining me, because it truly. And it's weird to say it's not about the photography anymore, even though that's the reason they're signing up. It's not about. And I think those amazing images that you can walk away from an outing like that are just wonderful because they remind you of the adventure and the time that you had. You get to look back on them and it connects you to, oh, yeah, remember this story. And we did this to get this shot and the weather was challenging here and like, all this stuff, you know, and that's the beauty of the images as well. And then you get to share them with friends and family and then share the story about it, you know?

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think the other thing I experienced quite quickly, probably about two years in, was that it was much easier to build a rapport with people. Although you're in a group environment, because you're with people for a number of days and you're with them like morning and night, you can kind of build a much better rapport with them. And once they get to know you and they get the measure of you, I've experienced that most of my work is like, repeat work. Like, the participants that attend seem to be the same people, which is, which is phenomenal. But I found doing one on ones, if you have a bad day or a bad morning or by that I mean weather, perhaps you can't get on location so you have to go to your backup location. And the person might feel a bit put out because they've had to drive for an extra half an hour or whatever it may well be. It's. That is then about trying. It's like damage control, isn't it? You're trying to make sure that you've got four hours and people like, people get it. It's wildlife and it's. Things are out of your control. But I find on the tours it's. I can be much more relaxed and I can, I can just really get into the flow of it because, you know, you've got a number of days to kind of show these people what's what, you know?

[A]

Absolutely. And it's so funny, man. I feel the same way all the time, Rich. It's like, I know they get it and they'll even say it to me. They're like, I understand, I know it's wildlife, you can't control it, but, but it doesn't matter. I just want so badly for them to have the experience, to get the subject in front of them, to get the photos that they're interested in getting, you know, and when it doesn't work out, just, man, it's so hard to let that go, you know, it's just so hard to be like, oh yeah, it's wildlife. I'm like, yeah, but you're paying me a lot of money. I want this to happen. So yeah, you end up just working your ass off. Like you said, damage control, trying to make anything happen

[B]

completely. And I think that's, I think that comes through as well. Like, I had a day up on the mountains this season where one of the participants of the group would turn up a day early. So he was like, can I do a one on one, Can I do a one on one workshop with you? Before the rest of the group arrived for the day. So we went up and we were almost tripping over mountain hairs. You know, we just couldn't help but find like tolerant mountain hairs to photograph. Getting the wide angle lenses out and just, you know, this, I think this guy was like thinking to me thinking to himself, oh, you know, this is easy photography. And I kept saying to him, it's not always like this, you know, I was like, it's not always like this. And he's kind of. And you and sometimes you can almost set the bar too high. And then the next day when we went back as a group with the other three, it took me two hours to find a hair. And you know, people, and you're up there in February, beginning of February, up in the Scottish Highlands. It's cold and it could be bleak. And they're okay because their experience in the scenery and stuff, all of them, actually, for like the first time. Yeah, you've got to remind yourself of that, like that how they feel. And their experience will come down to how I'm rubbing off on them. So you've just got to keep it positive, you know, just. Just not let them think for one minute that it's not going to happen. You just. But inside, a little bit of me dying every 20 minutes. But on the outside, I'm like, oh, yeah, let's just sit here for a minute and have a coffee. But then when you find them, you're like, oh, I can tell them now that I was nervous. And then you can be really honest about it. Be like, I was worried there for a minute and they were like, oh. And, you know. But that's, that's something you can say kind of afterwards in hindsight, you know.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. I'm one of the hardest things I find. Listen, when I'm out doing my own photography, I. I can have so much patience. I can sit there and wait and just. And just know, right, you. We've done this long enough that, you know, more often than not, if you put yourself in the right spot and it's not 100%, but a lot of the times if you just be patient, the wildlife will come to you in the, in the area that you're supposed to be, because you've, you know, done the research and you've experienced it before. Right. But when you have clients with you and the wildlife isn't there, it's so damn hard to just sit tight and wait versus going out and searching. And, you know, it's like, if I take this group and wander around, that's probably the worst thing I could do. But it's so hard to just sit here and go, trust me, wait. And then you're just like, hoping. It's just like, I drive myself mad in those moments.

[B]

It's like, that's one of the things I would say I struggled with most when I first started was second guessing myself. Yes, exactly. I don't know about you, but I think a lot of people do. But you get like, impossible. You kind of think, hey, these people have booked with me, like, did they think I was someone else or, you know, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, they like the secret shopper that are just like. But then I think in my experience, you probably experience that the same. If you. If you don't stick with your gut and it doesn't come through, you're going to regret it every single time.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So, yeah, I kind of think. Well, I got to a point where I felt confident enough offering the subjects that I work with, because I know how it works. So, yeah, there's always going to be elements a bit where it's out of your control.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But now. But the first couple of years, yeah. If someone said to me, do you think we should try somewhere else? I'd be like, yeah, come on, then, if you're up for it, let's go somewhere else. Whereas now I'm like, nana, don't worry about it. It's going to be all right. Are you. Are you cold? I've got. I've got some more layers. Are you hungry? I've got some food and just try and keep them happy there, you know, and that's what I've kind of experienced that, you know, that their. Their confidence is going to come from what you say and how you act, you know, so if you're like, nick, it's going to be here. Don't even worry about it. I'm not worried. Even if you are, Generally, it works out well.

[A]

And I think it's a lesson to teach as well. Right. You know, most of the time we're working with somewhat less experienced photographers. I mean, sometimes I get people that are really experienced, which is wonderful as well, but more often than not, it's less experienced photographers, and it's a great lesson to teach, which is, yeah, this is what you got to do sometimes. You just got to sit here and trust that all of your previous experience is going to pay off. And it. It may not. That's part of wildlife photography and I think that's. That's part of why everyone does it. Right. Because if we could always just simply walk out and find the thing in the perfect spot, in the perfect light and take a photo of it. Where's the fun? Where's the challenge?

[B]

Well, it's a huge topic that, isn't it? Especially these days. I think, like, I agree with you, by the way, wholeheartedly, and. But I. Yeah, I'm noticing more and more people wanting. Not necessarily people that come, in fact, not really people that come, but people are just wanting instant gratification. You Know, like, one of the things I enjoy most actually about wildlife photography is just wrecking locations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And kind of looking at, like, oh, I'll tell you. Sorry. I'll do this a lot because it's how my brain works. So I'll go off on a little tangent here, but, like, that's what this

[A]

whole show is about,

[B]

so bear with me on this. But one of the things I enjoy most is putting time into finding locations. And I don't really. Like you just said before, I could I have all the pages. Well, I don't really care if I don't come away with an image. As long as I feel like there's been some value, I'm out in nature, as corny as it sounds, is pretty valuable. You know, we're very blessed. And I found this location last season where there was like. Like waterfalls, essentially coming down there. Like, what would you call them? Like, weirs.

[A]

So.

[B]

Okay. It's like coming right down behind. I was like, oh, my God. And I was. I was doing, like, different workshops. I don't know, a couple of miles upstream. And I just went for a walk one afternoon, and I was like, oh, my God, that would be insane if you got anything in front of that. And after. After my morning workshops every day, I just went and sat back there, and then I. I went and showed it to a lady. Oh, you know, actually, I took someone there that came out with you and Brad, actually a lady called Megan. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Nice. Excellent. Yes, I remember, huh?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, She's. She's. She's. She's great. Megan. Yeah, she. So she went for a walk down there when I was doing my phone. So I had her in the morning and I suggested. I told her about that. Basically. It was a nice walk. She went down the next day and she came back to me. She's like, rich. I think there's some dippers nesting down there. Joking. So I went back every afternoon and I just sat there, just. Just waiting. And then that's just become, like, the project that I'm so excited about this season. I worked with them for about four nights in a row, but, yeah, finding that location, then be like, if there was any birds in front of this, this would be amazing. Then to find that there's, like, a pair of dippers, like, nesting behind the falls was just incredible, you know, and that's a bit I enjoy. But going all the way back to what we were saying, I think I. I experience, like, people now, don't really. Not everybody, but there's a lot of people that don't really want to put that time in. They just want. They just want to get the photos. And I think that's. That's a pity. And it's. It's kind of. One of the things that I wrote down that I wanted to ask you about was, you know, you made a choice a while back now, but to start sharing your RAW files.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What, what was the kind of, the reason behind that? Was that because of a lot of what you're seeing on social media now?

[A]

Yeah, there was, there was a little bit about, you know, I think there's so much of exactly what you said. Right. In all aspects of life, really. But, you know, if we're just talking about photography here, in all aspects of wildlife photography, both the, the getting out and shooting part and listen, I get it. Not everybody has the time you and I have to be out there. Right, I totally understand that. But you don't have to take an amazing photo every single time you're out. Like, it's just. You don't have to, you know, and if you can accept that and realize that you can allow yourself to explore more and to fail more and experiment more and I think come up with something unique instead of just the same crap everybody's sharing because it's the easy subject in the same place, you know, so there's, there's that side of it that was, that was my little tangent there. But going back to the RAW file, I see that same shortcut with post processing from. And now. Yeah, it's really interesting. I actually am trying to figure out a way to. I want to make some of these reels that sort of, in a way combat this, because I see so often I see these reels that start with. And I'll just flat out say a bad wildlife photo. And then they post process it to death and, and then turn it into something else and then it's celebrated. And I mean, listen, every photographer can do whatever they want with their photos, right? But I think, again, this is promoting and celebrating this culture of, well, who gives a shit how you took the photo? Just, just go, shoot whatever, and then you can just post process it to death, use all the amazing AI selections and tools and masking and then turn this into something that's reasonable to look at, but actually bears no resemblance to what you actually saw when you were out in the field and press the shutter button. And to me, that's really sad. It's a loss of craft, it's a loss of caring, and it's just Another shortcut in the world of so many shortcuts. Just trying to get more attention on social media. And I, I really want to share something sort of against that, but I also don't want to do it in a way where I'm completely like trashing other photographers because in the end, like, they're allowed to do that. I just want to say, hey, everybody, maybe that's not the best way for all of you to approach this.

[B]

Yeah, that's kind of what I was kind of asking for because I wondered if that was, that was a big part of it because that's definitely something that's kind of made me feel a bit despondent. I don't really share much on social media anymore because I look at it and I actively seek out the people whose work I feel inspired by.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

As opposed to like just doom scrolling because. Because we all know, you know, you don't really get to choose what you see anymore. Exactly. But, but you're seeing that stuff all the time now where it's like, it doesn't really matter because you can get a killer. Well, you could get. Not a killer. You could get a very nice bird on a stick image with a completely different background foreground. Whatever. You can even change a stick. Hell, I mean, people are putting like snow in and all sorts of stuff but. But without having to even really go very far. But I wonder what that's doing to the average person who's just getting into it. Who, who, when you turn around to them and say, hey, we're going to walk today three hours up a mountain in the snow to try and photograph.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then why would, why would. You know, you just, you just wonder, don't you, if it's going to go that way? Whereas, I mean, they'll always be people that absolutely love the height, love the adventure and get rewarded, but definitely does seem to me like there's a lot of, a lot of people after that instant gratification.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That numbers thing, isn't it?

[A]

It sure is, man. It sure is.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It's attention. It's the, it's the hey, look at me, where's my attention? Kind of thing, you know, and then like to, to just kind of go back a little bit. The other part of it, like there was two parts of me sharing that RAW file to begin with. Number one is to show like, hey, you can do most of this in camera. And when I have an image that doesn't look very different from my final image to the raw, I'm pro. That I love sharing that, you know, and I'm, I'm also okay with sharing what I have done with the edit. So a big part of it was just simply to be transparent with my audience so that when they are viewing that final image, if I did have a little bit more of a heavy handed edit, they can see that and that it's not. I just never feel like I'm deceiving them anymore. Right. They get to see like where it started and where I went. And then the other kind of main part of it was that it was right around the time when a lot of this AI stuff started coming out and taking place. And I was like, well, this is a wonderful way to show I'm not using any of that. This is real. Here's what it looked like when I press the shutter and here's my final image. And so again with that transparency, it kind of avoids any confusion of hey, is this AI for anybody viewing it? You know, so it did two great things for me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, I completely get that. It makes, it makes perfect sense. And I think the main thing is almost nobody feels it's almost. Obviously you don't, but people don't feel like they have to do that. I think that's, that that's the kind of key thing. It'd be a shame for people to feel like they had to do it just, just to prevent people now from just assuming your work if it's of a certain standard isn't even real, you know.

[A]

Correct. Yeah, yeah. And I know photographers, dude. I know photographers personally that do share stuff like that. And then half their comments are like, yeah, fake AI, blah, blah, blah.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[A]

And at first they are trying to combat it and then it's just so much that they kind of just give up and just have to leave that stuff sitting there because it's like you can'. It's just too many people saying this stuff and that's kind of a sad thing as well.

[B]

Yeah, but then I suppose it's like that. I suppose you could see. I don't know if that sounds a little bit too optimistic, but it's supposed to say it as a positive thing. Well then my work's that good that it's not even possible that I've taken it in camera.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, I agree. And I think they do take that.

[B]

Yeah, go ahead, Ray. Like this is this. I was just going to say I think this is the whole thing now. It's like people are quick to assume that it can't possibly Possibly be real, but it's amazing what you can get if you put some time in, right?

[A]

Absolutely. And that's the thing where I'm so grateful that you and I and other photographers like us have chosen this path. You know, correct me if I'm wrong. As a full time wildlife photographer, you're making most of your income from these tours and these workshops and these outings, correct?

[B]

Yeah, almost all of it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so the beauty of that is this AI crap, no matter how advanced and amazing it gets, I really don't feel like it affects us because the people that are coming out to work with you are just like we said a little bit ago, they're there almost more for the sense of adventure, the sense of accomplishment, to actually be out in nature, to see these things in real life and then to capture them. Of course. Right. And then we're there to try and guide them to get that experience, to think differently, to push their photography. All of that is good. But in the end, they're there for the experience. And it doesn't matter how good AI gets, there's still going to be people out there that want to do that. And so I feel relatively safe in my job because of that, you know.

[B]

Oh, completely. Yeah. I don't, I don't actually. You'd see like, you've done it for a very long time. Brad's been doing it for a very long time. But like, photographing wildlife or sharing images of wildlife in their environment was kind of something I was. So I want to say, like, reluctant, maybe that's not the right word, but something I was so nervous to do when I first started doing this professionally. And I was trying to make a living because I kind of felt like I needed to be uploading publishing images that were going to grab people's attention that was usually like larger, you know what I'm trying to say. So like, yeah, and then over the last couple of years, it's been so liberating just posting what I want, posting what I want. And yeah, it's, I mean, like I say, you've been doing it for a while, so you probably forgot what that, you know, you kind of figure, what's he on about? But like there's just a long time there where I was just posting to essentially and sometimes. Oh like it's terrible to say, probably even. There's probably even times I was going on location and shooting just because I knew that image would be well received on social media. And it's been really, really nice. Kind of completely Moving away from that now, just almost going the opposite and just shooting for me and seeing how much I can push it, you know, just to get something much more in a frame or. And that's why I, like, I love your work. You know, I don't want to blow smoke, but I just. There's just so much more context to it and I, I think it's such a pity that perhaps people are overlooking that sometimes in pursuit of those likes and stuff.

[A]

Absolutely. I think that's the, that's the issue that comes up for the photographer in my mind, you know, is that when you let social media influence how you shoot and how you share, I think it's a problem. And I love the word you used is that when you just kind of decided to say f all that it was liberating, you know, and it lets you explore your own photography, whether that's small in frame stuff or who. It doesn't matter what it is that you're doing as a photographer, but giving yourself the space and the freedom to be able to experiment and try new stuff and explore, even if it's not going to be received well on social media, I think is a wonderful thing. And that's another thing that I think is really missing these days. And it's something I try to talk about with a lot of the people I work with, which is just follow what's fun for you. Like who cares about social media? Just, just go have fun with this, you know, I'm sure it's come up in conversations for you all the time with the people you're working with.

[B]

Oh yeah, completely. And I think one, one of my good friends, guy called Kev, he, I was away with him recently, we're in Scotland together and we'd both done quite a few days together up on the, the mountains for the mountain house and our cameras didn't leave the bag. Yeah, and that, that comes as like, I don't know, like one of those situations where you could feel a bit uninspired when you photograph something so many times, similar conditions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We were like talking about it afterwards and we were like, and I want to. Again, I made a note of this to ask you this, but like in those situations, would you, would you shoot until something clicks or would you sit there until something clicks and then start shooting? You know, because I, I must admit I'm quite guilty of being on location now and having a certain type of image in my mind and if it's not gonna happen, I really have to force myself to try and move away from that and start trying to shoot something else, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think, again, Rich, for me it's a little bit different because of my lifestyle. I'm constantly getting to see new things. And that. That brought about a big change in my photography. There was two things that brought about kind of this big transformation in my approach to my own wildlife photography. The first was Emily and her approach and just being around her. She was so much more carefree. When I first met her, I was very much in a. Every outing had to count. You know, just really planning out everything and trying to make an amazing image every time I went out and kind of putting, you know, in hindsight, and I see it now, too much pressure on myself to. To go out and make these things happen. And I would. I was kind of disappointed and, you know, not very fulfilled if I had an outing where I didn't get some kind of image I deemed worthy of sharing. And just hanging around her kind of gave me this, like, showed me this other side of it, which was so much more carefree. Like, she just loved being out there, and if she got an image, cool. And if not, it didn't matter. You know, it was just more about being out there. So that was part of it. And then it accelerated even more when we started living in the van and really, truly traveling to all new places. And I started kind of realizing, like, yeah, I don't need the camera all the time. I mean, we do all kinds of hikes. And sometimes in beautiful, like, sunrise, sunset hikes and beautiful, stunning places, and there's plenty of times, Rich, we just don't even bother bringing a camera. And I see things. I see things. I'm like, wow, if I had a camera, like, that would be an incredible shot. And it's okay. Like, I'm cool with it. You know, I don't have to take that photo every time. And so when I kind of, you know, got that freedom of not having to press that shutter every time and not being upset when I didn't, boy, it just really, like, it calmed me down. It let me be a little bit more open to other things as well. And now I feel like I'm so much more opportunistic in my photography. But the other interesting part is, and this is where I think it is still important to remember that sometimes you do have to put in the work. I'm opportunistic in finding possible, like, possible scenarios. So, you know, we'll just go on a hike and wander around. I Might not even have a camera. But if I see something, then I'm like, oh, that could be good. And we have enough days for me to stay there. Well, that's it. Now I'm in, dude. I'm in the zone. I'm like, all right, making plans. But I can be here at sunrise, or the light's gonna be this way. I should be there at sunset, or I want some overcast, whatever it may be. And now I'm, like, hitting it as many times as I can in the next couple days to try and make it happen. So I do kind of dig in and get serious about it when I see the potential there. But until then, I'm okay with just being like, yeah, whatever. You know, like, don't need the camera. Don't need to shoot all the time. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's been my approach lately.

[B]

It does. Yeah. No, and I guess that comes back to that word liberating, I suppose, isn't it, like, just. Just enjoying it for the right reasons?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But Emily's work's incredible. Hey, like, I know. Just the colors just really. But that's amazing, isn't it?

[A]

It is, yeah. It just comes so natural to her. It really does. You know, I had to work and still have to work a lot to. Here's a perfect example. We were just in Florida. I was hired to be a part of this Big Bird photography conference. There was 14 different instructors, 100 attendees. And every morning, every evening, we were taking these groups out. And so we took this one morning, we took a group out to this wonderful location, a place I've shot so many times down in Florida, and I love it. And there's always potential there. And we did. We had a really good morning. And then I come back, and Emily had just kind of decided not to go on that outing. And she just stayed at the hotel and just had walked out onto the beach there with her 135 lens and a coffee in the other hand. Right. So she was. She wasn't even trying hard. She told me she was like, I was just taking these, like, trying to balance my coffee and just shoot the camera with the other hand. And, dude, she had these photos that were just stunning. They were more beautiful, I know, than anything any of the people with me captured, because I was. You know, I saw the potential we had, and we didn't have anything quite like that. And she just has this way about her that she can be so casual about it and just barely go out and Put in the effort and just find these things. But I also think that kind of says something about that approach as well, you know?

[B]

Yeah. But that's. That's cool, though, isn't it? That is. That is. That is pretty cool.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

How'd you get that one? I was just taking a stroll. With the little lens?

[A]

Yeah. It's so funny.

[B]

So I was going to ask you. I see. Because I know, I know Megan joined you for this, but puffins, man. I think when we last spoke, like five years ago, you hadn't. You hadn't. I don't think you'd done anything with puffins yet. I don't think that's been five years ago. No. So how did you find that?

[A]

Well, that was Brad, right. He lives in Newfoundland where the puffins are. Yeah. And so, yeah, he invited us up one year and me and Emily go up there and obviously. Obviously fell in love with it. I talked with Brad and we decided to partner up and now we've been doing it ever since. We go up there to that island. It's an incredible island. And Emily and I usually try and spend a couple of months on the island because it's just great for life. Yeah. We go up there and spend the whole summer. It's great weather. It's not too hot. Whereas the rest of the us is always just uncomfortably hot in the summer. Most of it. And so, yeah, we just. We hang out up there and we love it so much that I proposed to her on the cliffs up there with all the gannets, and that's where we got engaged. And now this August, we're going to get married on the cliffs. Puffins in the background and just our family there. So that's going to be an amazing time.

[B]

Oh, that sounds idyllic. Absolutely idyllic. They. That they are. Well, it's just everything, isn't it? It's the sound, the smell, everything. When you're around those seabirds. I know. There's just so much atmosphere. It's just. Yeah. It's a feeling that you can't really explain.

[A]

Do you have a favorite group of birds or type of bird?

[B]

Do you know what, dude? It's not changed. It's still the dipper. Yeah. Nice.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

I just. I haven't even scratched the surface and I know I haven't. And this is a bird that I've got on the river, you know, in the village where I live.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there's just so much more I could do with this bird. And I just need.

[A]

When you have something like that, you've shot the hell out of it. You've shot it a bunch of different ways. You know, I saw this one shot of this incredible waterfall in the background with all the layers. It's just stunning. It's one of the most beautiful I've seen of dippers. What's on your mind? What else do you have to do? You say you just haven't scratched the surface. Where do you see that going? I'd love to hear some of that.

[B]

Oh, so firstly, like, thank you. But so that location there, that, that was the one I mentioned before. And that to answer your question is I just don't think I shot it how, how I wanted. I feel like I can get so much more from it. So what I would quite like to do, I did, I, I was in the water, but I didn't have my waders with me because I was away in the campervan like I said, doing the workshops. So I was a bit restricted with regards to where I could sit. I did decide to, to go and get a little fold out chair so I could sit water level without getting wet in the water. But I couldn't change my perspective.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

How I wanted to. And not only that, I found when I came away. So I think I did four afternoons there. Firstly, they're much more active in the morning. Okay. So if I, if I have a few days this season where I, I purposely shops, it means that I can get there nice and early. I can get myself in the water and get set up before they, before they become most active.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So that's one thing I can do differently to help me hopefully yield some better results. But in terms of the images themselves, how could I improve on them? Oh, mate. Like so many different ways. Because I don't really like the foreground. So one of the most recent images I published on social media of them from that location, I had to do a really tight crop on the foreground.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

Because there's so many rocks. But I figured with a lot more rain of rain recently, with a lot more water running downstream, those rocks will be submerged and then that would give me a much nicer fork. So I'd be able to put the bird even smaller in the frame without losing it to the foreground. So yeah, it may. I. I don't know if it sounds a bit, you know, silly to some people, but I was, I was kind of looking at the scene, I was, I was shooting it and I was happy with some of the image. Most of them have to go in the bin because those birds do not stop moving. So I was like, yeah, if I had more water, it's going to give me faster water behind, meaning that I can still, you know, get, get some movement without needing such a slow shot. Speed.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And it also means that I can clean this foreground up quite a lot by just, just having some deeper water. Really. So those were like two of the main things just changing my perspective and just having a bit more water.

[A]

Dude, I just love this idea and if you have other things to share, I'd love to hear more about it, but I just love that you share an image like that. I mean, it's a stunning image. Dude, anybody, any photographer would be so proud to have that. Right? And you're like, and this is what I love. You're like, yeah, not good enough. I got some other ideas. I can improve upon it, you know, I mean like that's, that's just, that's my style of wildlife photographer. It's just never good enough. You just got to keep pushing, you know. It's a great thing.

[B]

Yeah. Well, thanks. I, I think, like, I, I think if you think you've completed it, then I don't know, you're in the wrong game. You never want to be the smartest person in the room, do you? Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I think when I look at that location or I look at that bird, for example, because there's going to be loads of other locations much better than that because I've just got to find them. But I think that that's a bird that I've been photographing every season for, I don't know, 10 years. And I've done the portrait stuff, the behavioral stuff, but just to get more environmental images or perhaps some environmental images of a bit more behavior in so more than one bird in a frame or so, so much I could do. But if I could afford it, I would love to start getting in the water and just doing some like split screen stuff that would.

[A]

Dude, I was just gonna say, when do you get in the housing? It's so funny you said that. I was, that was my next question in.

[B]

Honestly, every year I'm like, I need to get that for next season. And then like, yeah, it comes around so quick and I'm like, I just can't justify the expenditure. Yeah, like, yeah, but one day for sure. And that's what keeps me excited. I can't walk away from that, photographing that bird because I, I know myself. I just haven't even, like, I Said before, scratch the surface with them. I haven't even really ever shot them backlit, you know.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So there's so much more I can do with them, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, that's really cool, man. And, I mean, such a fun species to hang out with, you know, like, just so unique.

[B]

Yeah. I think for me, it's just how busy they are. They just don't stop. And if we've got time, like, I. I'll tell you about one of the. One of the things I experienced the last year, which was really cool.

[A]

There's tons of time. Go for it.

[B]

Yeah, cool. So I was. I was like, I go back to. I've got three different locations up in the Peak District over here where I do workshops. So I don't hit the same location every day. And I've gone to swan, I don't know, maybe three or four over the period that I was up there. And there's this lovely pair of dippers, and she was sitting on eggs and just getting some really, really lovely photos. All the guests that were coming, we're getting nice, close encounters. Nice photos. Yeah. Far enough away that you're not disturbing them, but, you know, close enough that you can. You can get some nice shots. And we were sat there with one participant. I was like, what is that dipper doing? And it was moving in a way I'd never seen before.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this kept. This kept going on and on. I thought, this is really odd. I'm gonna go take a look. And so I, like, went a little bit closer. The next thing, like, a stoat just popped its head out from under the bridge and. And this stoat had gone into the nest, watched whilst they were sat on the or eggs taking the bird out, and was trying to pull it back through the pipe like the sewage works of the bridge. Wow. And I'd got this dipper stuck. But the reason I mentioned this is because obviously that's. That's some behavioral stuff, but I be heartbroken because you.

[A]

You do.

[B]

I don't know. You start to put human emotions on things, don't you? And you do get attached to things. And I was like, oh, man. Like, you know, there's a partner there. There's eggs. Like, that's just absolutely heartbroken. My wife's an ecologist, and I phoned her up. I went up onto the trail behind to get some signal, and I phoned her. And I wasn't in tears or anything, but I was absolutely, like, devastated for this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This male. Male dip, emotionally, that Was going to come back to see his, I think I described her as his wife. And Ro was like, it doesn't work like that. Like it's just, he's, it's just about him reproducing and stuff like that. Anyway, the next day, like I said to the, the next participant, look, I don't even know if this male is going to be here. This happened yesterday. And yeah, he may, he may have gone off, I don't know. Anyway, we turned up, get out the vehicle, go on to location and there's this male just calling away on a rock. And I said, oh that's, I thought that's nice to see. I was like, well at least the person's gonna get some images. And the male's still there calling away, still feeling like heartbroken fame, you know. Dude, I'm not even joking. Like the guy hadn't even waited 12 hours before he brought in a new female. It's just like female straight in, clearing out the nest. So there's me like spending like 12 hours like heartbroken for this guy. He did not give a hoot. He's just straight back on the, straight back on the bike.

[A]

Oh, that's such a good story.

[B]

But it's that stuff, it's that stuff that just, I enjoy watching more, you know. That's not about images. You know, I, I, no, I did get some. I'm not really a kill person kind of photography guy. I'm. Yeah, it's each room if I've got not, you know, like it really is each their own bit. But. So I wasn't like fussed about taking images, but it was an interesting thing to experience. But yeah, I just thought it was just a funny ending there to see. I've been sat in the campervan all night heartbroken for this guy. He's already out lining up a new female.

[A]

He may have had her that afternoon. You don't even know. Right?

[B]

Probably, probably off somebody else.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh man.

[B]

But you're, that's what keeps you on your toes, isn't it?

[A]

Totally. And that's the other thing that's really interesting. You know, I, I have been such a wildlife portrait photographer for so long, you know, and, and I say portrait meaning even with my small frame stuff, it's just usually like a static bird. It's non behavior stuff, you know, and I certainly, it's not that I have a problem with the behavior, it's just that I, you know, as patient as I am, I guess I'm not that patient. To kind of like really stick it out. But I have been realizing and understanding more that that's an area that's, that's never ending. You know, it doesn't matter how good of a portrait you've got, how amazing the light was, how amazing the composition was, there's always some other behavior that you can capture with these subjects. And so yet another reason to continue to go po back to them time and time again, spend more time out with them. And like you said, if there's nothing happening, nothing inspiring, you don't even have to pick the camera up or take it out of the bag. Right. But then all of a sudden, if something does happen, being there and ready for it, that's the only way you're going to capture it. You just got to be out there. And that's where you and I are really lucky that we get to spend so much time out in the field.

[B]

Yeah. And it's interesting as you're saying that. I was just thinking, I think that probably is why in some way, way we're quite, I guess to put, if you're looking at it extremely, like positively like the fact that we can only work or we only work with a handful of subjects over here, it kind of, it kind of forces you, doesn't it, to sit and wait for those kind of moments. You know, I can't just say, ah, not doing dippers again today because I've got the opportunity to do this. It's kind of like, well, there's only so many things you can kind of work with to build up a decent body of work. You're going to have to just spend as much time as you can with those handful of things, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

[B]

And that's probably seen like.

[A]

Sorry, no, God, that was it.

[B]

Well, you've probably seen like a lot of the guys over here, like UK based guys where most of us, we photograph in the same handful of subjects, you know.

[A]

Totally, absolutely. Yeah. It definitely is something that is, is noticeable with the everybody that's staying local there anyway, you know, that's not the photographer that's traveling internationally all the time and that sort of thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Is that something that appeals to you? What? Traveling more?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, dude. So much. Yeah. We have a three year old and I love the idea of just showing her more of the natural world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm blessed to do what I do, live how we live and, and kind of show as much as I possibly can on our doorstep or all within the uk. But yeah, to be able to travel more? Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully. That's, that's, that's not too far. Hey, how about you? When are you coming to Scotland? When are you coming over here, man?

[A]

I don't know. It's just, you know, sometime it'll happen. It'll happen. It's just been five years, right? Time and money, dude. Time and money. You know, that's. Yeah. You know, like you said, you want to travel more, but it's just challenging to find both of those things. I mean, and I say time and money, right? I have a lot of time, but, you know, I gotta. I gotta balance it all. And, and then the other thing that's challenging, and Emily and I talk about this all the time, is, you know, since we live full time in this van, anytime we have to fly, to travel anywhere, it just feels so annoying. Endless. I. I understand that's a problem that kind of everybody has, but we get this lovely privilege of being able to travel to all new places all the time and take everything we own with us and our home, you know, so we can be anywhere. And, you know, I just got here, where I'm at right now, two days ago, but I am just as comfortable here as anywhere. It doesn't matter where we park this thing. We have our home, all of our stuff. I have all of my gear. I'm comfortable. I have electric, food, everything. And it's just. I'm good to go all the time. So anytime we have to, like, pack up a little bag and take only some of the photography gear and then, like, fly somewhere to travel, I'm like, this sucks. So I'm so spoiled.

[B]

Yeah. And you spend the whole time worrying about your equipment as well.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

I do. I do get that. It would be cool. It'd be cool to see you guys over here, especially up in Scotland, especially. And in the winter, too. Just to. To kind of. To kind of see how you shoot, really, and just get you. I mean, obviously I have a rough idea because I watch your videos and stuff, but it'd be cool to. To get you out in the field and get you on here. I think you'd have an absolute blast if you ever did.

[A]

Oh, of course I would. Yeah, of course I would. But listen, if it happens in the winter, Emily won't be there. She cannot stand the cold. She hates it.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Oh, yeah. She's not a fan of the cold. That's why we migrate, dude. I mean, me too. It's just nice to migrate and live in the van where it's always nice. But I don't mind a visit to the cold, you know.

[B]

Do you know what? I actually like it. Like, I. Which is quite lucky because I live where I live. But, yeah, I don't like the lack of daylight hours.

[A]

And that's tough, right?

[B]

You know, the wet and the gray and stuff like that. But I really enjoy the cold. I'd take that over a hot, sunny day, for sure. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, hot is not fun, but, you know, I'm. I try to just chase the good weather. Like, where I'm at right now, I have all the doors and, like, the whole back door is open. And I'm sitting here just like staring out into the forest here at this campground. And it's just beautiful, like, air coming in. There's like a nice breeze. And yeah, it's just, you know, I. I spend a lot of time in the van, but it feels like I'm outside anyway. You know, while I'm sitting here recording this, like, there's. I was just watching a bird fly around out in the back here, just feeding on some insects. I can hear them all singing the whole time. And yet I'm sitting here, you know, in my quote unquote office recording a podcast with you. Like, it's such a. An amazing thing, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you traveled in it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it's. It's. Well, we spoke about it before we went. We were recording here about the connection issues. That's why I was kind of interested in styling when I'm off grid with it, you know, it's. I can't really, like, work and stuff, but, yeah, it's amazing just to be. Be away in the van and just have that freedom.

[A]

Hey, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And just be able to go out. It's just the nature's right on your doorstep, you know, like, you don't have to go far to get out and experience it. So, Rich, what's. Like, what's next for you? You know, like, where do you see yourself going with the business and the photography? Like, is it just continue the path here a little bit more of the same, or do you have some. Some grand ideas of things you'd like to do and directions you'd like to go?

[B]

Yeah, so continue doing what I do. But a couple of things I'm working on is just a couple more tours I'd like to introduce a couple more tours, perhaps working with other photographers, friends photographers that do it on a professional level as well, maybe working together, because I think that's really fun. I feel all the idea about I haven't actually done it yet but I think the idea of actually like, like you and Brad do must be really find the right person.

[A]

It's amazing. Yeah.

[B]

And are you saying Brad isn't the right person? Right.

[A]

Or I am not. That's why I continue to do this with Brad.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's it, isn't it? It's just trying to find some the right person, the right gig and just, just to spread, spread that load as well. You know, take you sure. You know, so you're, you're sharing those kind of, that'd be really, really fun but, but maybe doing that just a little bit further afield. So I already do a couple of bits in Norway but it would be nice to look at some, some, some other locations and, and start offering a little bit more. But I think for me like I want to make sure whatever I'm offering I feel as comfortable as I can in knowing that I'm going to get people on, on the subjects and they're going to have a good experience. Now I don't want to rush into anything.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, like I've got my Isle of Mole tour coming up in May where we do like I do loads of osha's puffins and loads of seabirds and stuff eagles and this is, this is like my fifth year doing that and I feel nice. So I feel so relaxed now about it. I don't get complacent but I feel really relaxed about out. I know we're going to find the wildlife. I know the nice places to go and eat. I know how the ferries work. I know like the logistics, the trap for everyone, how long it takes to get from one location to the next. So. And I think once you've got that it feels a lot less like work. I think in those early days of running tours you're kind of like I, I just, you kind of overthink all those details. But the other thing I've been working on a lot is like, like a members part of my website. So coming away one of the things I really miss I suppose about when I used to put my work a lot more on social media was the actual creating side of it which appreciate like making videos, doing tutorials, like long format videos out, out in the field videos or short tutorials and just showcasing more of my work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rather than, rather than putting on social media now I've started working on like a members a members site on my website where it's like a subscription based thing and I'VE been reluctant to do it for a while because I was like, I don't know again, imposter syndrome. More people sign up and I thought, hey, what have I got to lose? Yeah, that's the thing. And like, I've mentioned it to quite a few people now that said, like, you know, they'll support it and they're all. They're interested, like having like a members only, WhatsApp group, having members only, members only seasonal competitions, like friendly competitions. But you kind of set topics for people to go out and shoot throughout that season, then they submit their work to you.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

So I've just been working on that. Really just stuff to kind of keep me inspired through other people's work and.

[A]

Well, and more interaction with your clients as well, the people you work with. Right. Just a way to stay connected is what I'm hearing as well.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Is. It is. Absolutely that. And also just to keep me out. Like, one of the things. I mean, I used to do a lot of YouTube videos, and I really enjoy the process of going out to a new location and putting together a video, getting back, editing it. I mean, I'm sure you can appreciate that. And I kind of stopped doing it just because of, you know, I do the odd one and put it out on YouTube, but I want to be a bit more consistent with that, but without some of the stuff that comes with social media. So I thought this would be a great place to kind of upload those videos regularly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But keep it to a smaller community, you know.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's awesome, man. I think I'm starting to learn and realize more and more the longer I do this, that I think that is where, you know, we can just exactly that. Connect more with the audience that we want to. You know, social media is great to get awareness out there and everything, but at least for myself, I'll say I haven't figured out a great way to directly connect with the audience that way, both in a way that I can, you know, have some financial support, you know, from it, but also to. To give them, like, share my knowledge with them. Share my knowledge and experience with them, which I'd love to do. I love to teach, you know, and so that's been a big part of my mentorship program, you know, is. And it's worked out quite nicely. It's been years I've been running that now. And, you know, I have students that come and go, which is totally fine, but it always stays about the same average of number of people. And it's it keeps me busy, but it also keeps me connected with these photographers and I get to see them grow and I get to work with people from all over the world that way, which is really a neat thing. And see, you know, see what they're photographing all over. You know, I have, I have a student in England, I have a student in Sweden, somebody in Australia, and you know, just like all over. And so that's been really nice. So I think it's a wonderful thing that you are putting your own spin on a version of that that you can continue to connect with your audience with.

[B]

I think the other thing, what you were just saying there is like, it's just that feeling when you feel like you can offer value. Yeah, it's just, it's such a lovely feeling, isn't it? You know, sometimes when something becomes like a muscle memory for you, you can overlook that perhaps people don't know those things.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

You know, like whether it's, oh, have you ever thought about maybe getting eye level for that one? Or have you ever thought about having the negative space in this direction or whatever. It may well be something that you're just doing these days without even thinking about. And hey, look, I've still got so much to learn, but just being able to kind of offer that, you know, offer that to other people and see them or have them appreciate and see how they then it then develops in their work. It's just such a dealing.

[A]

It is, yeah, it is. Yeah. I love it. I love it. And I can tell you do. Right. You know, which is why you put in the time and the effort in all of your tours and, and have that personal kind of experience. Like you're not, you know, you're not a photographer. It's out there doing, you know, you're not doing 40 different tours a year and just non stop and just turning through people and stuff like that. It's more of, it's more of a personal experience, you know.

[B]

Oh yeah. I only do like, I think it's four a year. Four tours a year. Four tours a year. And then the rest of the time I'm at home growing vegetables, spending time with my, spending time with my family.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And just, you know, do it working on like local projects. I want to, I want to have what I offer, like just completely dialed in rather than just saying I could fly people off to these places and sit them in these hides and do this. Like those things are cool and they serve a purpose. But like, for me, I just, I like, like we talked about earlier, just the whole experience and the, the getting people out in the element search of stuff is like what I enjoy.

[A]

Absolutely. Do you still do any one on one stuff, Rich?

[B]

Yeah, I do. I do. So. So in about two weeks time, I'll be going up to the Peak District for two weeks and I'm back to back with Dipper workshops.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And. And then I've got a few brown hair workshops around the same time. And then I do the odd beaver workshop because the beavers live in the village where I live. So I can. So I, I used to do those all summer. And I found what was happening was I just wasn't spending as many evenings at home with my wife and kid. You have to until it's dark. And I was getting back when like my daughter was in bed and I was leaving the house when they were like, I don't know, out in the garden having a barbecue. And I'm like. And it sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But I was kind of like, like Alicia these early years. I didn't want to miss too much. No.

[A]

Smart. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I don't. So I don't do too many of those. And what. But the. I also do red deer in the rutting season. I still do.

[A]

Excellent.

[B]

Which is super fun.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's just. It's always a different experience with the one on one thing. You know, it was. I kind of had a weird trajectory myself. I started my whole business on the one on one stuff. And then, you know, I got like big enough that I was able to start doing groups and destinations and I switched almost entirely to that. And then I kind of started realizing like I was missing it. And you can just work with different subjects. Right. There's some subjects that I love to photograph and I love to teach people to photograph, but you just can't really take a group of five or six people there. It just doesn't work, you know. And so it's been nice to kind of transition back to some. I guess about a third of my workshops now are still one on one. And some of them in these. Like I take people up into Nome, Alaska, up into the tundra in spring for all the nesting birds up there. And I just do it one on one, you know, because I could do a group up there. There's every other tour leader does groups up there. You can. But it wasn't the way I wanted it to be. And I'm so glad I'm doing it this way because it's been an amazing Experience. The everybody that's joined me has said the same thing. You know, I can tell they're having just an incredible time and it's so different because it just, it gets to be myself and them out there in these amazing places and they get a custom workshop just for them, you know.

[B]

Yeah. People and you know, I think you've probably experienced yourself that sometimes group dynamics can be, can be a tricky thing to manage and if you, if there's not a lot you can do about it sometimes. So, so having, having those one on ones I kind of is, can be, can be extremely refreshing because you just don't have to worry about any of that, do you?

[A]

Absolutely, man. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So man, what time is it over

[B]

there at the moment, Ray?

[A]

It is just about 2:30 in the afternoon.

[B]

So you're heading out this afternoon?

[A]

Probably not. I have got, I got another session to do in about half hour. So I gotta wrap our call up here. I got a new mentorship student joining me and then I just joined the board of a nonprofit organization that is going to be all about helping promote photography and teach and inspire young kids, younger kids like into photo.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Yeah. So really excited about that. And they're having like their monthly meeting where one of the younger people that's been a part of the group for a while is doing a presentation. So I'm going to try and hop on that call just to kind of be there and you know, support that, which is really, really cool. And then. Yeah, I just got you know, just like other, you know, the work side of things. Right. I got a schedule post on my website and stuff like that. So tomorrow morning I think will be the first time I, I get my ass out and start doing some photography. How about you? You got anything lined up?

[B]

No, I'm putting concrete footings in my garage at the moment.

[A]

So exciting.

[B]

So excited. Dude, honestly, I drive my wife mad because like I retiling the bathroom in January now and then I like. I was like. She was like, do you think you should be doing this? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, you're going to the Cairngorms for a month in like a few days. I was like, yeah, I have it done, don't worry. Well, that was January, we're now like mid March. So I've got to finish time and because I'm just, I'm about to head away for like two weeks to the Peaks and I'm home for like a week and then I'm off to the Isle of Mull for a month. So like if I go and that garage and that bathroom's not finished, I'm. I don't think you're done. Coming back to a happy wife.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's gonna be like, just stay out there.

[B]

Yeah. Don't even think about coming back. Yeah, exactly. Unfortunately, no photography for me probably this week, but yeah, I'm heading back to that waterfall location. Oh, I love it. In like two weeks time. And I'll be there like every afternoon for a couple of weeks so hopefully I can work on some of those images.

[A]

That'll be wonderful. Yeah, please do. Yeah, certainly, man. And where's the best place? Since you said like you're not sharing so much on social media, is it just your website now? Should we point people in that direction that are interested in following your work a little bit more?

[B]

Yeah, sure. I mean that's cool. If people want to, want to take a look, then, yeah, just Richard Campion photography dot com. And then my socials are just my wildlife images, but yeah, I mean they're few and far. I, I upload, but just randomly. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not nowhere near as organized as you, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Well, in a way I'm envious. You know, I think it's nice to have just like as long as you're getting the clients you need and, and your name is out there the way it needs to be if you don't have to dive into the social stuff so much. I think that's a wonderful thing, man.

[B]

Oh, dude. You'll probably notice like anytime I post, it's usually got a caption saying like space has come available on this and like, you know, it's, it's, it's rarely because I, because, because I feel like I need to like, or wanting to post as such. It's kind of usually just to promote something. It's mad though that I say that because if everybody had the attitude, I would be absolutely gutted about not seeing people's work. Because, because whilst I don't upload much of my own work, I absolutely still love it as a place like Instagram, as a platform to feel inspired by other people's work, you know?

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a big part of why I started that new website, you know, And I'm great contributing. Yeah. So thanks so much for that. For joining on Immerse in the man that I, I, It's a selfish thing too, man. I just love being able to see these photos in this way. You know, it's incredible.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think that's. I don't think that's selfish, Ray. Like, honestly, I think it's such a nice thing that, that you're doing that. But it's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I appreciate you reaching out and I was looking through before, actually, because I think you sent me a message before to say mine's. Mine's just gone up like today or something. Yeah, yeah, but dude. And then I was like looking through other people's. I said, oh my gosh, I need to pull my finger out because, yeah, there's some incredible photographers around. It's super inspiring. Yeah.

[A]

And it's just so nice to be able to actually view it in a meaningful way instead of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Compressed on Instagram. So, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Things just get lost then, don't they? That's it. That's why I'm a massive advocate for, like, printing your work if you get time as well. Like, not even print printing with like an aim at the end of it. Like, it doesn't matter if you don't want to hang it on your wall or if you don't want to sell it, but to see your work in print and it suddenly becomes tangible. I feel like starting that process really changed the way I was taking images, actually.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, listen, hopefully we get to chat again in less than five years, but if it is another five years, I'll be happy to have you back then and hear another update.

[B]

Thanks, dude. It's really good to speak to you, mate.

[A]

Same here. Same here. Thanks so much.

[B]

All right. You take care.

[A]

All right, you too. Hey, this is Ray Hennessey. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode. Please subscribe and your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and pop possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.