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- [00:00]
A
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Wildlife Photo Chat. I'm very excited to have on the show Annalise Koehler. Anneliese, how are you?
- [00:08]
B
I'm doing all right, thanks. How are you doing?
- [00:10]
A
I'm doing great. You know, we were just talking a little bit before we hit record. You know, plans change, and I think a lot of people that listen to the show might know I was supposed to be in Hawaii, and the weather kind of, you know, struck, and tons of rain there, which I feel horrible for everybody that lives there and the birds, but I had to cancel that whole workshop, and. Yeah. So, you know, I'm actually here in. I was calling it Mono Lake. Have you ever been Mono Lake in California?
- [00:37]
B
I haven't been to that part. I mean, I think I've been through there, but not for work or anything like that.
- [00:40]
A
Okay. Yeah, so. And apparently somebody else told me that was local here. It's. It's Mauno Lake. I think Mono is how it's pronounced, which is just spelled M O N O, but I guess it's pronounced like mo. No, but anyway. Interesting. It's a stunning place. It really is. This is our first time here, and so it's not a bad alternative to Hawaii. So certainly not the same birds, but we're making the best out of it.
- [01:06]
B
It's hard to come up with something that's like, well, it's not Hawaii, but it's.
- [01:10]
A
I mean, really? Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. You're very, very correct on that. So what have you been up to?
- [01:29]
B
So when we first started talking about doing this podcast, I was actually in Florida updating some of my bird photography, and I used some of your old blog posts that were on your website. You and Emily have a great map up there. Because I hadn't done a whole lot on the east coast of Florida. I've always kind of focused sort of on the south west part of Florida.
- [01:47]
A
Okay, cool.
- [01:49]
B
Yeah. So it gave me a lot of really, really good ideas about where to go. So I spent some time in Sebastian and Orlando wetlands and running around stick marsh for the spoonbill rookery and popped up to do some snail kites. I was all over the place. It was kind of a crazy trip. My car broke down, and so I had to, like, switch everything up. But, you know, such is the life of a wildlife photographer.
- [02:11]
A
I know. Right. I feel like that's what we do more of than anything else. Right. It's just, like, figuring out how to work around the stuff that's happening, going wrong 100%, every.
- [02:20]
B
Everything is a one of those choose your own adventure stories from childhood where you just don't know, like, you know, you're going to get to the end of the page and you're going to have three options and you just hope that you picked the right one.
- [02:31]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [02:32]
B
And almost never is the right one.
- [02:33]
A
Yeah. But you know what? It's always an adventure either way, right?
- [02:36]
B
Always.
- [02:37]
A
Always. All right, so here I have to ask you, how did our map do for you? Did our location. Yeah. Okay. All right, good.
- [02:43]
B
It was stellar. Highly recommend. Five out of five stars.
- [02:46]
A
Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, also, you know, it's Florida, right? You kind of can't go wrong almost anywhere there.
- [02:53]
B
So true. And actually, even though the weather was terrible when I was on the, on the Space coast side, I got hit with like some of the storms and the high winds, so no beautiful reflection shots for me. I really wanted to go photograph. There was a big flock of skimmers that was out in like Black Point Wildlife Drive. And of course, like, as soon as I get out there, look now, here come the winds. I was hoping I could beat it by like 20 minutes. No, there's just complete rain, winds, everything. So everything was kind of working against me. But like you said, it's Florida, so even when it's working against you, you make stuff happen.
- [03:25]
A
Absolutely. And I gotta say, what is your thought on this? Because I love when this kind of comes up with wildlife photography when you have sort of the, the weather that you're not hoping for, the, the pain in the ass weather, like you said, the wind, the rain and everything isn't there. Sometimes you can, you can make something almost more magical with it if the, if things line up just right.
- [03:47]
B
Oh, 100% like I look. So some of my favorite bear photography that I've done, for example, has been in absolute downpour. And I think a lot of it comes like, talk about a creative opportunity to get out of a rut or like, quit making the cliche photos that you know are gonna work. It's a perfect opportunity to do that. I, I will take being in the rain any day over boring photography.
- [04:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. And you know what I think, like, we all imagine probably when we're going anywhere, we're all imagining like, oh, the beautiful golden light or this. Like you imagine this shot, right? And then you get there and the weather turns like that. But I mean, not that those shots are bad by any means. I'll certainly take them as often as I can, but they're more common. They really are a Lot of photographers have them. And so when you get these adverse conditions, it really is exactly what you just said, an opportunity for something unique and creative that maybe not everybody else has.
- [04:43]
B
Yeah. And like you said, they're common. And it's interesting how I think we. We kind of get into this. This sort of. What's the word I'm looking for, like, the cyclical aspect to our work, where we kind of go into places that we've been to, especially if you get to do this a lot or you have a favorite spot that you go to, like Yellowstone or Florida or wherever it might be, and you get to experience it multiple times. You kind of have an idea of what to expect. And the part that's troublesome with that is that you can get into a creative rut where you just kind of go in with preconceived notions. And so having, you know, bad weather or maybe a road closure or something that you weren't expecting pop up is a great time to get rid of those preconceived notions and start thinking creatively again. It may not work out. And I'll take the good stuff, like you said. I'll take the good photos, you know, all day, every day as well. But I do love having it sort of like when the wrench is thrown into my plans, if only because it breaks me out of that preconceived sort of predictability that I tend to get into my. Into with my work.
- [05:42]
A
I can totally think of multiple times in the past, both when working and just doing it, things on my own, where something didn't go according to plan, whatever it was, and it made me completely pivot what I was doing and then ended up in some scenario. And you look back on the whole thing and you're like, wow, if this didn't happen, I wouldn't have ended up here and had this encounter that was amazing. And I got this incredible photo that was never planned at all. I love when that kind of stuff happens.
- [06:07]
B
Me too. It's one of. I can also think of multiple experiences where. Well, it's kind of like we were kind of saying, like, with Hawaii, right? It's like, oh, it didn't go as planned, but, like, multiple times where I've come across, like, new location. I've found a species that I'd been hoping to find, like lifers. When I've been out birding and had to recalibrate, like, all of these opportunities, there's many, many times over, have created those situations, have created something way more exciting than I Intended.
- [06:32]
A
Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I also want to hear a little bit about what you have coming up. You had mentioned right before we hit record, something that brings a little stress into your life.
- [06:44]
B
Yeah. So I have a floating hide, floating blind workshop coming up. A lot of my work in last, I would say six to eight months and then going forward for the next two or three years is focused around the prairie pothole regions of North America.
- [07:00]
A
Nice.
- [07:00]
B
I love the prairie region. It's an ecosystem that I'm super passionate about. I've been doing some work with a couple of different waterfowl conservation organizations in that area. I'm doing some storytelling, some video, a whole bunch of different, like kind of little personal projects and professional projects in this region. And the floating blind workshop is one of my favorite workshops because it's such a new. What's the word I'm looking for. The floating blind kind of concept to photography is so new to North America. It's used much more in Europe and other places, but we don't see that a lot here yet. And I really love it. It's my favorite piece of photography gear, is my floating blind.
- [07:41]
A
It's so fun.
- [07:42]
B
It's so much fun. It is the best way, especially now that I have my blind. So I have a couple of different tents and I've got it like, here's what it's brushed up, like for when it's green. And here's my brush up tent for when it's dry. And Britt and really experimented with a lot of different things. And photography aside, when you are so close that you feel like a western grebe is about to run into the front element on your 400 millimeter because it just doesn't even see you, like watching them rush toward you like that. It is a spectacular feeling. It's incredible. And I just. Sometimes I don't even need to photograph. Just watching and knowing that I get to observe this is one of the most special things in the world. But I have this workshop coming up and it is wonderful to take all these people into the floating blind, get them acclimated. It can be a little bit awkward. People are nervous with their cameras in the water.
- [08:33]
A
I have questions, but go ahead, continue.
- [08:35]
B
Yeah, all of these things, but. So it's really fun to introduce people to this style of photography, but it's also incredibly anxiety inducing because these potholes exist because of the glacial landscape. They're potholes left by the glaciers during the last ice age. And we require snow melt to fill these potholes. These are not spring fed. These are glacial divots that often have water in them year round, depending on how large they are. But many of these smaller ones also require the snow melt and the springtime rains to fill them up. And this is a crucial region because about 80% of North America's waterfowl is born in this region. It is that big of a breeding ground.
- [09:13]
A
Wow.
- [09:14]
B
So we need the water there.
- [09:16]
A
Yeah.
- [09:17]
B
And last year, the first week of the workshop, we had so little water that people were like crawling on their knees through the mud. And I was literally just sitting in my waders with barely an inch or two of water at times.
- [09:30]
A
Oh, gosh.
- [09:31]
B
By the end of the workshop, the rains came and it got windy and just because of that rain. And then of course, the runoff coming, you know, down the fields and into these potholes, it was chest deep to over the top of my waders if I had been standing there. So it just goes every which way. And because of that, because it's all timed with the snow melt and everything else, you have to hope that it works well with when the birds are there and when they're getting ready to breed and, you know, court and do all of the other behaviors that we're hoping to capture on our cameras. So it's just a little stressful.
- [10:02]
A
Yeah, no doubt. I mean. Yeah, yeah, no kidding. I mean, I guess there's a handful of things I do like, you know, seabird colonies and stuff like that, where it's like, oh, there's going to be tens of thousands of birds there. I really don't have to worry about subjects, you know, and so it's pretty stress free in that regard. But a lot of other things, you just never know, you know. And so that is certainly part of being a wildlife photographer. But this one does sound a little extra stress inducing. And I got to say, too, before I ask a few more questions about this, I totally agree with you. It is just an incredible experience to be that close to the wildlife. But also it's just fun being in their environment too, isn't it? Like being in the water with them is just different than laying on the shoreline. There's just something more fun about it.
- [10:51]
B
Flat out, 100%. I think it changes. It's kind of like what we were talking about with the disruption in the weather or something goes wrong. Right. It changes a setting for you as a photographer. So now, you know, to me, being in the water with that animal, being right there in their environment, gives me a whole new perspective on their lives. It helps me understand more about how they're living, how they interact, how all of those things, you know, the ethology of our subjects is a really important part of being a successful wildlife photographer. And being immersed into their environment in that way is extraordinary. And it is so much fun. I would live in my blind from the end of April through all of July if I could.
- [11:33]
A
Yeah, that's great. So the other challenge I'm curious for you though is, and maybe it's minimized because some of these sort of pothole ponds are smaller, but what about wind? Because whenever I've used my floating hide, I mean, the smallest amount of waves on the surface makes it quite a challenge to look through through a lens of like 400, 500, 600 millimeter. So how do you deal with that as well?
- [12:00]
B
That's when you start photographing the yellow headed blackbirds from the shore.
- [12:04]
A
Gotcha.
- [12:04]
B
No, wind is a difficult, it's totally a difficult thing. And yes, there are some areas where you can usually find some protected, you know, depending on the marsh, depending on the pond, etc. You start to see, I think, what is it? 15 miles an hour is when you start to see white caps. But definitely the wind is not your friend with a floating blind. And especially, especially not if you're trying to get video. That's just never going to happen. It's hard enough to get stills, but yeah, the wind, once, once it picks up, I think anything over like 10 miles an hour, just forget it. Find an alternative activity. That's how I do it. Yeah, just the photography is not going to be good unless you can tuck back in there because the birds are less active out in that open windy area anyway. It might be okay for FL flying in, but you're not really getting a ton of that flying action from your blind anyway. It requires a little bit of a different technique. So it's just easier to either tuck in into like a protected area or just re. Redo it and go with a different plan.
- [12:59]
A
No, no, totally makes sense. I give you a ton of credit for doing this with workshops, but I also really appreciate that you have gone for it, because I feel like it for so many wildlife photographers and myself included. You know, I love the experience myself, but I'm like, this seems too hard to bring other people in to do it, but I give you a ton of credit for doing that and introducing people to that experience because that's got to be amazing to watch when it works out and they get to have that experience themselves as well.
- [13:28]
B
Oh, absolutely. And thank you for that. One of the things that I think is so fun about the floating blind style workshop, and this is something that I kind of anticipated, but didn't know for sure how it was going to happen the first time that I did this with a group. And that is the floating blind requires you to be masterful with your field craft.
- [13:48]
A
Sure.
- [13:49]
B
Every little movement gives you away. It stirs up sediment on the bottom. You create a ripple with your movement. You have to be completely dialed in and in tune with that environment.
- [13:58]
A
Yeah.
- [13:58]
B
And so last year, and the person I'm thinking of, I know, has traveled with you as well.
- [14:04]
A
Okay.
- [14:05]
B
And she's an incredible bird photographer. Gorgeous work. Absolutely love her work. But she struggled so much with her field craft on this. It took her a while to understand, like, you can't move that fast.
- [14:19]
A
Gotcha.
- [14:19]
B
You have to be patient. You have to take your time. We're talking movement in inches, not feet.
- [14:25]
A
Totally.
- [14:26]
B
And you know, like, one of the things I always tell people when they're first getting started is take your blind and like tuck up a little bit against some vegetation so that you're kind of part of, you know, something that looks a little bit more land based. You're just part of like this marshy scene. You know, you don't want to necessarily be out in the open. Even with a brushed up blind and looking a little more irregular and all of those other things, you still stick out like a sore thumb.
- [14:46]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [14:46]
B
So anything you can do to mitigate that really helps. But a lot of people will do that. And then they wait for like three minutes and think, yeah, well, nothing's come, so I better be in that. Go to another spot. Yeah, no, you got to give it like 20 or 30 minutes.
- [14:59]
A
Yeah.
- [15:00]
B
And that's a challenge for people. You know, you were talking about like the challenges of doing workshops. There's a reason that you and I and other workshop leaders do workshops in places with like, like rookeries with tons of birds or Yellowstone or these national parks.
- [15:16]
A
Yeah.
- [15:16]
B
The thing that we do with groups is the most improbable thing in the world. Humans are loud. We are loud. We are obnoxious. Even when we're quiet, we are still the loudest animal on the planet, for sure. And we go to those places because the animals we're photographing are accustomed to that. And we know as workshop leaders that there is a reasonable amount of success and photographic opportunity that we can still take a group of eight or six or however many loud, bumbling humans with cameras and tripods and Whatever else. And we can still get them in front of a wild animal. And they can go home with a beautiful trophy photo. That's not the case in the floating blind. Yes. So, you know, these are animals. These birds are hunted everywhere. From their breeding grounds to their wintering grounds, they are hunted. They see humans as absolute threats constantly. That's not the case in a national park. When you have these skittish creatures, Everything you do, even though you're in a blind. Yeah, it becomes super important. And so that was the interesting part for me was seeing these really talented photographers having to reconcile that. Yeah, they can expose a photo without thinking twice. They can compose something beautiful and in depth and rich and wonderful and full of a story in a frame. That is never the challenge. Moving in an inch or two at a time and staying put for 20 minutes. That was the challenge.
- [16:35]
A
Yeah, totally. Totally. No, I remember I used to do. Back when I lived in New Jersey, Hooded Merganser workshops. And I would take people in in the dark, you know, a full hour before sunrise, we'd get in a hide laying on a shoreline where I knew these birds were going to be. They were. They were truly wild birds. Not acclimated at all. And we had to sit there and wait. And the funniest thing, Anneliese, was so many times before there was enough light to actually shoot and get a good photo, the birds would swim. I mean, right in front of people. And it was the hardest thing for photographers. And I would tell them over and over again, like, listen to birds. If they swim by before it's too, like, bright enough, just don't move. Don't even point your camera. Don't do anything. And to tell somebody to not point their camera at a duck that's swimming 10ft in front of them is like, forget it. They just couldn't do it. And they would always move. And then the duck would, like, notice it. It wouldn't flush, but it would notice. And then they always stay kind of far away. And I'm like, oh, you shouldn't have moved. You know? And I only said that because I had made that mistake countless times myself. Right. And so you learn this, and you're trying to pass it on, but. And I get it. It's so hard not to do some of these things when you've never done it before.
- [17:48]
B
Yeah. We have this need for instant gratification. And, I mean, I'm definitely not immune to that. You know, I want it, too. It is really hard. Even though I, like, I've been in my Floating hide. I don't know how many dozens of times in the last couple of years especially. And I still have to remind myself, slow down. Yeah, slow down, slow down. And like, to your point, like, and then like, I'm laughing over here as you're telling the story, because hooded mergansers are also, like, they're very. They startle really quickly.
- [18:15]
A
Yes.
- [18:15]
B
And so I'm just picturing, you know, I'm just picturing someone, like, swinging their camera and the response of a hoodie to that. Because I have also made that mistake with those birds before. Totally. You know, it's exciting. Like, and I think I've experienced this. I don't know if you've had this on your groups, but, like, I experienced this too, where that first day or like the first few hours of any group interaction when you've got excited people who've come together over this shared love of something. The energy is all exciting. The hope of what we're going to find is all exciting. And it takes a little while before you can, like, settle down and kind of settle into that routine of like, okay, we're going to be serious photographers now. We're going to get it together and doing that while you're also in this exciting experience inside of a blind.
- [18:54]
A
Yeah.
- [18:55]
B
You know, like, you add that extra fun element to it. It's kind of off the charts. It's really fun.
- [19:01]
A
Yeah. No, that's so cool. Again, I give you so much credit for doing it. And I really do appreciate wildlife photographers. And listen, like, I, I see it on your, you know, in your photos and the workshops that you lead. You do go after some of the, the really, you know, famous popular wildlife. But I really love it when photographers will go after the not so popular stuff or the more challenging thing, the more difficult thing. And, and it's just, it's more work, it's more effort. It is, like you said, it's more stress inducing. But when it works out, just to be able to introduce these amazing places and subjects and approaches to it all to other photographers, I think is worth it to do those types of workshops.
- [19:47]
B
Oh, I agree. That's something that I pegged about your work as well. Like just, you know, like take Hawaii, for instance. Like, talk about, talk about an incredible experience that's not on every website out there. And I think you're right. The payoff as wildlife photographers for some of those experiences is so much more satisfying when you have to work for it. And I think too, we, you know, there's, there's Nothing wrong with going over. Like, I will never stop photographing bears. I love bears. They're a specialty of mine. Like, both from an academic perspective as much as a photographic, you know, perspective. I absolutely adore them. And I love birds for the same reason. You know, I started off as a birder who became like, I was working as a photojournalist, and I was a birder, and I was guiding for Audubon as a birder first. And that was like, you know, I was doing very different work. And I eventually fell so in love with doing the wildlife part. And I realized I love talking about conservation, and I love talking about habitat and behavior and explaining the science behind what we were watching and what we were looking for and how I know this is where we're going to find the bird. And being able say, well, that's an oak tree, not an elm tree. You know, just all these little things. I loved that so much. I kind of switched into the direction I'm in now. But those. It's so exciting when you have the reward of doing the work behind it. That to me, the payoff is nothing. Like, there's no feeling in the world like that payoff that comes with working for a more difficult subject. I'm actually right before I do my floating blind workshop, I'm doing a personal trip out to Norway. I leave next week. And I am so excited to photograph some different grouse. I'm going to photograph the black grouse in the Caper Cali, and like you were talking about, with these unusual subjects. Like, I have been trying to do this trip for four years, and I finally get to do it. And I am so excited to go into the boreal forest. It's kind of boreal prairie. Mix and photograph these grouse like I can. I'm. I just beside myself with excitement over it because it's something that I haven't been able to do, and I've been waiting so long to do it. And I imagine that's how a lot of the people who come on our trips, that we all do feel about this, too. They've been waiting for so long, and that excitement coming together, it's a wonderful thing.
- [22:07]
A
No, I absolutely agree, and I hope that it. That everybody realizes that's the difference. You know, like, there's the workshops that I lead. There's totally some of them where I go to a place just like we said, you know, a seabird colony or a rookery or something like that, where the subjects just don't care. And that, to me, is Where I get to really switch into teaching mode of let's try every lens you can imagine to throw at these birds and photograph them in totally different ways. I can't do that with hodemerganzers. Or you can't do that when you're in a floating blind. You know, like those things. It's not the same type of teaching. It's totally different. It's teaching, like you said, the field craft or the approach or the patience, and it's giving that experience. So both of them have their advantages. And that's why I try to, for me personally, I try to mix it up with some that I can really push somebody photographically and then somewhere I can really push somebody field craft wise or just get them an experience or a subject that, to be honest, a lot of people just don't care about too often, you know. And I kind of see that in your work as well. Is that something. Is that like a conscious decision or is it just. It naturally happened that way for you?
- [23:19]
B
I think it's probably a little bit of both. I think in the beginning it just sort of naturally happened and now it's more of a conscious decision. You know, I think for. It's so important to me that people who travel with me get more than just something photographic out of it. And I think a lot of people want that. You know, we all love wildlife. That's why we are doing what we do. We all love these things and are interested in these things, but it's also something that can be easily lost when we chase the obvious and the big. You know, I was talking to someone earlier this week and they were frustrated because, you know, they live in Iowa and they don't have a whole lot to photograph in Iowa except for migration time other than, like, whitetails and beaver. And there's. There's definite wildlife. And a lot of people live in these places where it's not as exciting as Alaska or Yellowstone or places where, like, you roll out of bed and you create, you know, like, yeah, I'm a wildlife photographer in Jackson Hole. I'm going to photograph a moose, a pronghorn, and probably a great GR on my way to morning coffee. Like, when you've got wildlife just oozing out of your pores, you're going to see things all the time and the opportunities present themselves more often. So it's easy to be that photographer then who's like, in the middle of Iowa feeling like, well, I don't have any wildlife and I can't make these big epic Photos and, you know, and no, absolutely not. Like some of these common species that we take for granted as wildlife photographers can present some of the most incredible opportunities. And it's, you know, it's when you get to study a place and know it like the back of your hand, and you get to study a subject and know it like the back of your hand that you really start to evolve and you really start to push your photography to new levels. And you photograph that subject over and over and over and over and over again to the point where you can't possibly think about any other way to photograph them. And then suddenly something new is going to present itself and that becomes like, this place where you grow. And I think that's really exciting. And so for me, it's both a little bit of going to those predictable places where I can really teach and be involved and know with a relative level of certainty that people will be successful. But it's also then about offering something like, hey, this is true wildlife photography in the way that I can't predict it. The opportunities are not going to be just flowing at us left and right necessarily, but when they come, we're going to be ready for it and we're going to make some incredible things that you will not see from anyone else in your camera club or in your social media feed. And let me tell you, once you get addicted to that feeling, you just can never go back.
- [25:50]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. I've always been a fan of the underdog species. That's just how it goes sometimes, you know? Yeah.
- [25:58]
B
I was telling someone, too. They're getting into selling their work and we were talking about stock photography and they had all these eagle photos. And I was like, do you know how many eagle photos are on Getty right now? Like, you search for an eagle photo.
- [26:10]
A
Crazy.
- [26:11]
B
Yeah, there's like 2 million.
- [26:13]
A
Yeah.
- [26:13]
B
And there is no photo editor in the world who's gonna go in there and say, like, oh, I'll get started on these millions of photos. No, but you know how many robin photos they are of the American robin. It's one of my best selling photos because I have, like, one of 60 compared to, you know, these overlooked species that nobody else wants to pay attention to, or they're so common in their area. You know, like, when I was. When I was guiding as a birding guide, people would come down to Georgia, where I was at the time in Atlanta, and they'd be ecstatic because they saw a northern cardinal.
- [26:43]
A
Right.
- [26:44]
B
And everyone else would be like, why are you.
- [26:45]
A
So what's that it's just so funny when that happens, that situation.
- [26:49]
B
Right. And it's like, well, yeah, well, you've got a parallaxia. I don't get to see those every day. But you know, like, I'm glad you're excited about the Cardinal. And like we forget that what's common someplace isn't so common elsewhere. And sometimes we just need to take a new look at something old and see it in a new way for it to be just as exciting again.
- [27:08]
A
Absolutely. But I will say, and I'm curious about your experience on this side of things. It's one thing to do it for fun, for, for your own personal photography. I love shooting the, the lesser known, you know, less popular, less glamorous stuff because it just, I like that, I like trying to turn these subjects that most people either overlook or maybe have just never paid attention to into a photo that they might actually pay attention to. That's like, I feel like that's an achievement for me. But when I translate that into trying to make this my living and make it a job and have a workshop where people are going to sign up, that's a challenge sometimes to kind of get people over that hurdle of, no, trust me, this is going to be worth it. I know this isn't the most popular subject. I know you've maybe never thought about photographing this before, but seriously, trust me, it'll be worth it. You know, and it's just sometimes hard to sell them. Have you had that experience, especially with this floating high ping or has it been relatively, you know, people are on board pretty quickly.
- [28:16]
B
So that's a really. I, I could not agree more with you. I'm, I panic every time. Even though I know something like a workshop will, like, the people who trust me now will be like, yes, I'm in totally. If they've been out before. Right. Like you have that group of that core group who's like, if you say it's going to work, then whatever, I'll do it.
- [28:34]
A
Yeah.
- [28:35]
B
But there is still that nerve wracking part of running your business aspect to it where it's hard to communicate that now the floating blind part of it, it's a niche enough opportunity for people that they're curious.
- [28:48]
A
Yeah.
- [28:49]
B
And they're interested and they want to do something different, but they want it, they want it to be done with the safety net of learning from somebody who does it a lot. So I was really surprised. Like that sold out for me really fast.
- [29:00]
A
Awesome.
- [29:02]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like two days done and I'd Love to offer more. So, part of my plans for this spring and summer when I get back from Norway, I'm spending a lot of time in the prairie. Like I was saying, this is a focus area for me for the next couple of years. So I'm going to explore some more regions including I've got a couple of spots in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and some other areas that I want to bring into the fold.
- [29:25]
A
Cool.
- [29:25]
B
But yeah, it's super. I'm super stoked about it. But I think, yeah, it's nerve wracking and I think sometimes that's the disconnect between when you do it for a living and when you. And trying to make it into a workshop and connecting it with somebody who does it as a passion or hobby.
- [29:42]
A
Sure.
- [29:43]
B
There's business decisions that go into whether or not you can make something happen. And sometimes it can be as simple as, well, I don't have $60,000 to throw at that lodge to secure the dates two years from now, which I think a lot of people don't realize the financial level, like to, to throw that kind of money down and then say, well, I've invested $50,000 here, hope I can sell a spot.
- [30:09]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [30:10]
B
You know, that's scary. It's so scary. But you, you know, trusting that you're, that you're going to make it happen is a really scary thing. But yeah, I think with some of those more common species, I think people eventually get there. Like, they're like, well, this is different, this might be interesting. Or, you know, I've even had a few people where they've been done, you know, the Mara and I've done, you know, they list all the different places that they've been or they list all these other things and they're looking for something that hasn't been done. And I think coming up with the new stuff is a lot harder than coming up with like the tried and true.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah, yeah. But it just, I think the other part of it that's a challenge as a working wildlife photographer is the tried and true stuff. You can kind of just step your way into that relatively quickly and put together a workshop. All the other logistics are there, you know, a place to stay, transportation, all that kind of stuff. When you go for this stuff that's, you know, either never been done before professionally, you know, like workshop wise, you have to kind of piece it all together. And it also requires sometimes more years of research. So it's just, it's such a time investment. And then like you said, it's Is it going to pay off, you know, and is this going to be worth it? And it's. It is always a little bit of a gamble there, but it sure is fun when it does work out. And you can put all the pieces of the puzzle together and then get people experiencing this stuff and make it work out.
- [31:44]
B
Yeah. I did a survey last year for an article that I wrote about the difference between what workshop clients, people who pay to go on workshops or tours, expect from their guide and their experience versus what the GU guides experience is. And it wasn't perfect in that, you know, there are far fewer guides than there are clients, et cetera. But over 400 responses from, like, the workshop photographer participant side. Yeah. And what's interesting about that is, like, the expectations that they had versus what the guides were and workshop leaders were reporting was their experience could not have been more different.
- [32:23]
A
No kidding. In what ways?
- [32:25]
B
Yeah, so. So one of the big ones was. I kind of divided the guide part up. You've got, like, some of the big workshop companies, right. These are. They've got you half a dozen or more guides that all work under the umbrella of one bigger guiding company. And then you have sort of like the solo practitioners, like you or me and some of the other others. And we, as the solo guide practitioners, we tended to invest a lot of money upfront in doing the research. Like, we would visit the area at least once before, like a year or more ahead of the workshop, sometimes multiple years, to get the images for it, to make sure that logistically it was a repeatable experience for people and make sure that you could actually pull it off. Whereas with the bigger companies, they kind of did what you were talking about, which is like, you can kind of just sort of dial it in on. We know this is going to work. But they would sell the photography with, like, stock images and all this, like. And most of their guides. This is what floored me. The majority. And when I say majority, I'm talking like 90. I think it was like 95, 96% of the photographers who were guiding for the bigger companies had less than a year of experience at. As a professional photographer.
- [33:30]
A
What? That's.
- [33:32]
B
Yeah, take that in for a second. Right. You're dropping 13 grand on a trip.
- [33:36]
A
Legit. Not surprised. Not at all.
- [33:38]
B
Me either. Me either. But the flip side, it's sad, is the bigger companies tend to have tended to have their guides tended to have, like, more practical experience in terms of first aid certifications and safety and all that, which is also important.
- [33:50]
A
Sure.
- [33:50]
B
But yeah, less than A year of experience. I was shocked. I didn't expect it to be as much as independent operators, but I expected it to be at least maybe a year or two. But no, vast majority, less than a year of experience as a professional photographer. And what do you say? That's crazy, right? The other part of that was that the guides for the larger companies often only had 24 hours or up to three days in that. In that environment before they did the trip. So, like, the company would send them there a day or two before the group arrived so they could get kind of a feel of what was going on in real time. But even if they had never been there before or run that trip before, they had like two days to figure it out before the client showed up.
- [34:34]
A
Wow. And you know what the kicker is? I'm guessing so much of why that works for those bigger companies is whoever started them either up front, had it or was able to build it over time is just a massive marketing budget, you know, and like, yeah, that's what works. And as the independent wildlife photographer, we so rarely have that. There's some that do, but most of the ones I know do not have the marketing budget or know how, for that matter. And I very much include myself there 100%. Yeah. Of knowing how to reach your audience. And so you just don't.
- [35:11]
B
It is such a big part of it. And I. I'm laughing because I rem. I'll never forget, I was on a trip one time when I was. I went on a wildlife photography trip. Trip when I was still doing photojournalism. Non wildlife, non wildlife work. Okay. And I needed to shake things up. I've been doing it as a hobby and it was my thing. And I decided, like, last minute, I. I had a break and I. I was going to go on this trip and I rented a 600 millimeter lens.
- [35:39]
A
Yeah.
- [35:39]
B
And one of the other people on the trip complimented me, like, oh, man, that's a great lens. And I had said, oh, yeah, you know, I was able to rent it. And they're like, oh. Because every other photographer on the trip. Trip, you know, retired a little more disposable income than me, especially as a journalist. And they, they all had like, oh, I might. On this body, I've got a 400. In this body, I've got a 600. And wow. Like, you know, if that's too bad, I'll put my take out my third body where I've got, you know, my 200 to 600, you know, like just everything.
- [36:05]
A
Sure.
- [36:06]
B
And I, I so naive, I was so like naive to the idea of what it was. And someone's like, oh, you don't own it. And I was like, oh gosh, no, I'm a working photographer, I can't afford this lens.
- [36:14]
A
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yep.
- [36:17]
B
That's kind of what it came down
- [36:18]
A
to is like, yeah, uh huh, yeah, it is, it is a fascinating discrepancy there. And I think, you know, I hope and I do feel and believe this, that the audiences or the clients that photographers like yourself and I and many other good friends that I know that do this for a living connect with, even though it may be a smaller audience, it's so much more of a, like you said, committed audience. You get those photographers that just will follow you anywhere no matter what you dream up and do. And in a way I think that's better. I mean, there's times when I'm struggling to book stuff and I'm like, oh, I'd love a bigger audience. But when I get to see that photographer again in the following year in a brand new place that I'm taking them and just know them so well and work with that them, there's something just wonderful about that.
- [37:14]
B
Truly this, you know, I think about people like, I'm sure you get this question too from, from people coming up who want to do this kind of work and you miss out on a lot because of how often we have to travel. It's, you know, you have to go where the wildlife is doing, what the wildlife will do that you want to capture at that time. So if you miss, you know, if you miss the musk ox, Ruth, this year, you've got to wait for a whole year before you can go back and do it. And our workshops are scheduled out, you know, at least a year in advance, sometimes longer. And there's commitments, you know, and I've missed weddings and funerals and babies being born and how many family events between my niece's gymnastics and my nephew's baseball and the other niece's plays and just things that I couldn't be present for sure that my work has committed me to doing elsewhere. And that's disappointing. But the people I get to travel with are my family too. And they are so much a part of my life that I am genuinely invested in their success. And I miss them. I miss the people I don't get to travel with as often. I also really am comforted by them. They're my friends, they're part of my circle and I love that they trust me. So Much. But I also genuinely enjoy those relationships that I've built. And while sometimes when I'm home alone in between trips or I'm out working by myself, I find myself being like, oh, if only Audrey and Frank could see me.
- [38:39]
A
They love this so much.
- [38:39]
B
Or, oh, if only, you know, Melissa would be eating this alive. Like, I just. I miss them as friends and people that I care about. And, you know, sometimes I miss that a little bit. But I'm also really happy with the very rich social life and family that has grown up from my small circle of people who trust to trust me to take them with them. And I wouldn't trade that for anything.
- [39:03]
A
Yeah, totally. Absolutely. And another point that popped into my head while you were saying that is like. Like talking about the missing things and, you know, up and coming photographers that are thinking about trying to step into this as a career. It's not only that stuff that's missed as well, but it is also the. The freedom of photography that is missed. You know, it really is. Like you said, all the stuff that's planned, like, you have to. You know, I'm trying for this thing, so I gotta. I gotta research this this year and next year, and then, all right, I got it working, so it's scheduled for this chunk of time and then turns out, out, man, so. And so my friend who just does this for fun is getting to go do this in the same season. I'm like, oh, that sounds amazing. I'd love to do that, but I've got this lined up, so I don't get that flexibility. And so, in a way, and again, I would never trade it. This is my favorite job I've ever had as a photographer. But in a way, there are limitations that come with it. You know, you don't. It isn't always just I get to go photograph whatever I want every day for the rest of my life. That is not what this career is most of the time.
- [40:08]
B
Time 100%. And, yeah, I was. It's so interesting when I was speaking, like, about talking with someone about going into the business and the different things that sell or don't sell or what happens here and there. And that was. That was a big part of the conversation is when you go into the business, it's. I feel lucky if I get out to photograph a few times a month, largely because I'm in a really interesting phase of my business where it requires a lot of my attention at the moment. So I'm behind the computer a lot, or, you know, I'm crafting up some new stuff and just kind of working on a bunch of a behind the scenes kind of things. But, yeah, I think there's this misconception that when you're a full time wildlife photographer, you are out in the field all the time and you're constantly making images and all of that. And I don't, you know, I would love to be Bertie Gregory. I really would like, I would love to be out there in the field all the time, being hammered by, you know, weather and all those things. But there's a reason that groups like Netflix cruise and BBC crews reach out to guides like you and me to find these locations and do all this stuff is because we're out there kind of day in and day out.
- [41:14]
A
Totally.
- [41:14]
B
We're experts in our own little area and we're doing, you know, we do what we do on a much smaller scale. And I love my life completely. But, yeah, you do miss things. And there's times when I'm, you know, like, I'm really sad that I only have one bear trip this year, and I'm trying to figure out how to make another one happen, and I just can't. I just don't have the time. And I. I keep thinking about that and I'm like, yeah, so it's bears with wolves, but still, like, it's only one bear trip.
- [41:38]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:39]
B
And then I have to check myself because I'm like, annalise, you're complaining about having one bear trip. Like, what's wrong with you? You get to have a bear trip and a jaguar trip and all these other things.
- [41:47]
A
I know. Check yourself a little. No, it is good. I. I agree. And my fiance, Emily is so good at helping remind me to do that kind of stuff all the time because it is easy to get, like, a little spoiled, you know, and just be like, oh, but I just want more or I want this or I want more free time or whatever. It's like, listen, listen. You know, we just woke up today on a Wednesday morning and went out and did a hike in the eastern Sierras all by ourselves at sunrise, up into the mountains. And it was just amazing at a place we've never been before. And now I'm sitting down here having this amazing conversation with you. And, like, this is my Wednesday. I mean, it's really hard for me to complain, you know?
- [42:27]
B
Yes. I have to regularly work on checking myself. So late last year, an organization reached out to me about coming in and heading up their storytelling division and their visual storytelling, and they were finally bringing, like, photo and video in house. And they were doing all this. And it wasn't in the natural world. It was back, like kind of harkening back to my days as a journalist and NGO photographer. And it was interesting because I love that work. I really like, I absolutely loved doing my documentary work and I still love doing it when I get a chance. But when I started talking about it, I was talking about it with someone and I, and I kept saying like, oh, I don't know, and this and that. And he said, annalise, all you're doing when you talk about this is you're telling me all the things that this job would take away from you. You haven't told me anything about this job that you like. Like you talk about it taking you out of the field, taking you away from bears, taking you away from the birds, taking you away from all of these things. It's like, I think that's your answer. Like you haven't said one thing that. And I, I realized like, I love my life, the things I miss. Yeah, I'm working on crafting a little bit of a different pace now that I'm, I'm completely on my own with it.
- [43:38]
A
Yeah.
- [43:39]
B
But it's still one of those things, like, I wouldn't trade this for anything. I am the luckiest woman in the world.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah, no, it is, I totally get that. It is incredible what we get to do. I am grateful all the time for it. I think it's just simply human nature that, you know, you still can fall into the trap of being greedy about time, greedy about, you know, less work, more work, whatever it may be. Right. It's just, that's the nature of things. And I think it's that, at least for myself, I'll speak. That's always going to be there. I think I've. I'm doing a decent job and hopefully trying to get better at, like you said, checking myself about it and just recognizing like, look what it is I have and, and how I, how much free time I do get to go do all the fun stuff that I want to do, both photography and non photography related and all that sort of thing. And for me, you know, even, even more amazing getting to live in a van and travel around this country in Canada and just see new stuff. Stuff all the time. I mean, it's just, it's. It's a dream. It really is a dream come true. And to be able to do that in my mid-40s and for who, who knows, however long, as long as I can do it I'll plan on doing it. I'm unbelievably grateful for it. I really am.
- [44:49]
B
Yeah, it's. It is, you know, it being able to recognize that is something I never want to lose sight of either. And I think it's easy. It also speaks to the fact that what we do is still a job. And I know people in corporate world. You know, I was one. I worked in the corporate world for almost two decades before I made a career change into. Into photojournalism. And I made that change because I was so burned out and I just couldn't do it anymore. And it wasn't easy. And, you know, I make 70% less money now than I did back then, but again, wouldn't change it for anything. And I think sharing, sharing that with other people who are excited to be out in the wild and excited to make these connections with wildlife and environments and connections with their own photography and being able to help somebody see something that I enjoy. You know, I always talk about my personal mission as a wildlife photographer is to guide the heart, to move the mind. And I want my images and my storytelling for people to feel something in their heart that helps guide their mind toward loving it, protecting it, caring about it, whatever it might be. But I want to kind of guide them into the direction that why I love something. I want you to see why I love this thing and why it deserves our protection and why it deserves our thoughtfulness and all of that. That's my personal motivation. And when I see that connection for somebody, when someone else is reaching that conclusion or they have an aha moment, that to me is like another payoff beyond the photo. And I don't know if you feel that in your work, but when I, like sometimes, I mean, as workshop leaders, we miss a lot of great photos because we're trying to help other people get the great photos. And I am much happier when they get them than when I do.
- [46:43]
A
Oh, totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah. For me, one of the most rewarding things is exactly what you said. That light bulb moment, whatever it may be, whether it's, oh, this is how I can approach the subject or let the subject approach me, or this is what you mean when you're talking about fieldcraft, or whether be a compositional technique, a lens, it doesn't matter, whatever it is, when that light bulb moment happens and it clicks and then you as the workshop leader can tell, oh, that photographer just has this now as a skill for the rest of their lives. That's just the best. It's the best.
- [47:19]
B
It's the best. It really is the best.
- [47:22]
A
Yeah. And I. I have to say, I love, and I hear it in everything that you're saying in our entire conversation so far. It's. It's really impressive and not surprising at all, but it's just wonderful to hear, hear it in our conversation that. How hard you work at this, you know, and I've heard that from those that have worked with you. And it really shows, I think, in the work and it shows in the following and the committed following of people and photographers that you have. And I think it's also a bit of what you were touching on in this article that you wrote recently, which is definitely what was one of the main reasons I invited you on the show, is that I feel like it's. It's this shortcut world, you know, and if you don't mind, I think it's a good segue to. To dive into that a little bit. I'd love to hear your short overview of what it is you wrote there, and then maybe we can just kind of dive into that a little bit more.
- [48:26]
B
Sure. Well, thank you for all the nice words. I feel my face turning red. And I know you can't see it, but I feel like my face turning red from all that. So thank you for that. You're welcome, I think. So that article that I just wrote it and before I published that, the one I published before was along like a year ago. Before that, it was actually right after I came out of the Prairie Potholes in 2025, I wrote an article called Thousands of Miles and Nothing to Show For It. And that was my top article in the sense of, like, I received dozens of emails right away from it, and I got tons of messages on social media and all sorts of stuff, because I touched on something in that piece which has a similar vein to what this most recent article I did and kind of about the mythology of. Of wildlife photography brought. Now that one, the one I recently did, I had over a hundred emails and messages in less than 24 hours.
- [49:20]
A
Wow.
- [49:21]
B
And that's how I knew I had hit a nerve.
- [49:23]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [49:24]
B
And. And then it kept growing and growing and growing and I got more and more and more. And essentially, for me, it. It comes from a kind of start back at the beginning with where the inspiration for that came from. I had just been in Manitoba with an owl guide. As I said, I've been working in the prairie region for a while, and I was up there photographing snowy owls. Talk about an incredible opportunity. 16 different individual snowy owls in two days. I mean, it was fantastic.
- [49:50]
A
Damn. Yeah.
- [49:51]
B
And you know what else? Yeah, right. And not one other photographer out there. It was incredible.
- [49:55]
A
Even better. Even better.
- [49:57]
B
Yeah. And I wrote this article when I was talking with my guide out there. I had a. I had a guide who is local to the area, showing me around. He and I got to talking about how so many people will bait owls. Now. He doesn't bait. He doesn't call. He doesn't push. He doesn't do anything. We're very ethically aligned that way. And he was talking about, you know, he's like, yeah, a lot of. A lot of the guides here in Canada will do that. And he said, and they put it on their website that the cost of the workshop or the cost of the tour includes the bait. And so we started talking about, like, do we actually respect people a little bit more for disclosing that baiting practice than those who don't or what does that mean? And I won't speak for him, but I ended up on the side of, you know, I don't know if respect is actually the right word. However, I do appreciate that, especially if I were a paying client, I would like the agency in deciding whether or not I'm okay with paying for baiting or not.
- [50:48]
A
Absolutely.
- [50:50]
B
And contrast to, you know, the time of year, I know that there's a lot of the eagle workshops going on in Homer right now. And until I was involved with it, I did not know. Know that those eagle photos in Homer were made by tossing herring.
- [51:05]
A
Gotcha.
- [51:06]
B
And I kind of chronicle throughout the article, kind of the history of why the herring tossing began. And it kind of goes back to a local history from the 70s, and there's a story behind it. And sometimes I think that we allow these sort of storied legacies become our permission slips for things. And so kind of pulling everything together was also this idea that we don't disclose them that here. And why don't we disclose that? And why don't we disclose the fact that there's a fox in. In Cook City in Yellowstone that everybody photographs all the time. You know, the reliable fox that if you're a workshop photographer and you need to get your people on a subject, you can almost always find this habituated fox because the homeowner right next to the street feeds the fox.
- [51:51]
A
Sure.
- [51:51]
B
But everybody shows that photo as if it's an isolated moment in the wild with the sand animal, that it's not assisted, and there's an ego attached to that. Right. So all of it?
- [52:04]
A
Absolutely.
- [52:05]
B
Yeah. All of it came together with, like, if you take all of the threads of the article, you know, the silence, the ego, the mythology, the omissions that we tell that aren't really lies, they're just more omissions and lies. They all run back to the same needle. And we all fall in love with the idea of ourselves as wildlife photographers. Before, we fell in love with the responsibility that comes with. With being a wildlife photographer. And at some point, those two things have to trade places. And that's kind of the point I was trying to make in that, like, are we really. What are we saying about our photography if we're not being transparent about how those images are made? And does it mean your photo is less beautiful because the fox is habituated or the eagle was tossed a herring? And if it's a neutral detail, if it is something, that's okay. If we can tell these stories that are wrapped up in legacy. And that's why. Why, you know, half a dozen or more workshop leaders find it okay to toss herring to these eagles without talking about it on the website. If that's what they're standing behind and leaning on as their permission slip for baiting out there, put it out there. It becomes a neutral detail, just like it would be like, oh, and by the way, your cost includes the hotel and the transportation and the bait for the eagles. It's that simple.
- [53:19]
A
Yeah. Yeah. No, I fully agree with you. I think it all. All of these issues boil down to transparency. And I know, and I really appreciate this in the writing of that article. So anybody that hasn't read it, I'll make sure to include a link to this in the show notes, so you can go check this out. It's amazing article, but I love, Annalise that you, you know, fessed up to your participation in this stuff in the past, right? And, like, here's the thing. None of us are perfect. You know, we aren't. We're all learning as we go. I think. I think every good natured wildlife photographer is going to make mistakes. Listen, you're all going to. Those of us that choose to learn from them and change our behavior and try to get better, that's the direction we should all be going, right? It's not that you can never make the mistake. You can never do the wrong thing because you just maybe haven't learned it yet. You're. You're. You're ignorant. And not in a. Not in a horrible way, but just you haven't had the experience yet to Understand what's happening and how we have to learn this stuff and what it does. And if you have an open mind to that, I think you can grow and improve as a photographer. I think there's so much to dig into this. I don't think we'll even be able to get to all of it in a single episode of the podcast. Right. But I just wanted to, you know, start this conversation with you and share it with my podcast audience because I think it's one, one that deserves a lot of attention. And it really does boil down to that word you said is transparency. That's what it all boils down to. I think.
- [54:56]
B
I agree. Especially now when we're in this era of sort of AI gone wild. You know, one thing that you do that I've been a fan of for a long time, I actually started doing this and then I got simply. I just got lazy and didn't do this. But like, you often share your photo edited and raw, side by side so people can see that. And I love that level of transparency and I think more photographers should adopt it. Something I've been actively thinking about going back to even before we started talking about this podcast connection. And I think that's really important for a variety of reasons. And one of the things that I've heard from, especially like newer hobbyist photographers is this level of frustration with their photos because they're not getting what so and so is getting or how did they get this look or how did they get that look? And as soon as they show me the image, I hate telling them that's pretty much entirely made in post. Like, that's a photograph. There's no doubt they took this photo, but they changed the background color and they removed that distraction. Like, you know, you kind of break it down and they're a little bit shocked when they hear about that.
- [56:00]
A
Totally.
- [56:02]
B
Yeah. It's kind of like, I don't think we have to disclose, like, oh, I Photoshopped the hell out of this photo. You know, like, I think there's a reasonable expectation that photos are finished. And I know there's definitely. I don't want to criticize anybody's art. Some people really find the joy in the post processing. That is where their art lives is coming up and taking this raw photo and creating something that they had in their head but maybe couldn't get with their camera entirely. And if that's their art form, so, so be it. Like, more power to you. I'm terrible at Photoshop. I can't, like, truly, I Have to Google how to expand a canvas, for example. Like, I can't do anything in Photoshop. And that's largely just because I started off as a journal where, you know, all I, if, if an image takes me more than five minutes to edit, I'm just going to get rid of it because I'm not. It's. I can't do more than that.
- [56:50]
A
And I think, Anneliese, in my opinion, this is where that quote unquote, my photography is my art argument falls a little flat because it's wildlife photography. And so here, I'll set this up. I interviewed a guest on this podcast many, many years ago. I've been doing this for a long time. And they had some. They told me something at the time, and I didn't have the sort of wherewithal or ability to kind of argue back. So I just kind of went along with it. Right? And it's just like they gave this example of, you know, nobody asks a painter how they chose to, like, what brush did you use? And blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff most of the time, right? They just like, appreciate the art for what it is. And photography is an art, so why does it matter what you did in post processing to get to that final result? And I was like, oh, okay. But here, I think, lies the difference. And this is where I think you really connected with this is I think, the vast majority of wildlife photography consumers. So the people viewing wildlife photography have an assumption that it is along the lines of photojournalism. And that, I think is the problem there. Like any other genre of photography, I think for the most part, outside of photojournalism and wildlife photography, there's an expectation of like, yeah, we'd do whatever you want. You know, it's, it's, it's art. You can have fun, you can experiment, throw anything you want at it and post. It does matter. It's just the end result is what's there. But with wildlife, there is such an expectation amongst most viewers, I believe that it is a documentation of what was out there, what your lens saw through that viewfinder that day, you know, what
- [58:30]
B
you pointed at 100%. Yeah.
- [58:33]
A
Because of that assumption, when you do this crazy post processing, I think that's a little. At least I'll speak for myself. I feel it's deceitful to the audience. That's flat out what I feel there. And I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it. I completely agree with you. I think if you want to, that's totally fine. But to throw it out there. And I think you've, I think so many of those people that are doing crazy post processing like that they know they're getting responses from people that are assuming that's what you shot. And that's not the case. It's flat out not the case. And if, just like you said with these other issues, if that's not the biggest deal, disclose it, just say, you
- [59:14]
B
know, yeah, there's absolutely. I. Yes, 100. And I think this is bolstered by the fact that you look at like, I'm not a big contest person. It's not really something I do other than like through professional photographers of America with like some peer stuff that I'm doing toward my master's degree. But when it comes to, like when you think about all the people that you've traveled with or I've traveled with, like people really like, like the Audubon contest or photographer of the year, some of these other, other big things, if you look across the board unanimously as an industry, they say basic editing only. There's no object removal. There's no, you know, like, you can do basically what you would do, what I would do as a photojournalist, I can correct for color, I can straighten a horizon, I can crop, as long as it doesn't change the intention and what's communicated in the scene. Like if I were photographing, like I photograph a lot of elections or I used to photograph the elections every year and you know, when I'm cropping, I can't crop out a crucial person. That's part of the story just because it makes a better photo, for example, right. Stuff like that. So you can do those basic things. And now of course, you have the whole, I'm not going to get on this soapbox now. But the whole concept of noise removal, which is if you're using Topaz, it's generative and 100% pixel replacement versus some of these other programs which do not replace pixels, and what's going to be accepted and what's not. But yeah, I think you're totally right universally as a community, community through like these contests, these conservation organizations and the majority of wildlife photographers understand that it should be a view through the lens that's very close to reality with just those minor tweaks to maybe polish the photo versus completely dramatically changing it and still calling it a photograph. And there's a reason that the categories that exist in many of these things are, you know, here's the wildlife photography. And then if you want to enter this. You can, but it's going to have to be in the illustration. Illustrative.
- [61:09]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [61:10]
B
Category. Like where. Where it's disclosed, basically.
- [61:13]
A
Yeah. And that's it. Right. And I think there's nothing wrong with going too far. Some of my edits are much further than a lot of mine. But when I show it, I think, who cares? Then I can let the viewer decide if they're accepting of that or if they're like, you know what? That's a little too far. So I don't really appreciate this photo as much anymore. And that's. That's fine. I want the viewer to be able to make that decision themselves instead of me making that decision for. For them by not saying 101 of those. That's what ties into all this stuff. That's what ties into all of this. What you wrote, I think, is when you, the person, decide for everyone else what they're going to get to know about it.
- [61:57]
B
I use the example in my article about reality tv. If you think about reality tv, there's nothing real about it. Right. We all know. No. And I don't have. I don't watch, like, tv. I don't really do that. Like, I watch stuff, but, like, I'm not a reality TV person.
- [62:14]
A
Yeah.
- [62:15]
B
You know, I think I watched Survivor back in the day.
- [62:17]
A
Okay.
- [62:18]
B
And being like an Alaska resident half the year, too. Everybody always wants me to talk about, like, is it really, like, whatever, Whatever, Alaska. And I'm like, I've never seen the show. I'm so sorry. I can't.
- [62:28]
A
Sorry.
- [62:29]
B
Don't know. But what I can tell you is that with reality tv, we all accept on the premise of it, that it's been edited to heighten and enhance our entertainment value. We accept this universally. There is no person out there who watches the Bachelorette or whatever show and thinks this is 100% honest depiction of what has happened.
- [62:49]
A
Totally.
- [62:50]
B
And we're accepting of that. And people by the millions. It's a genre that will not die. For the love of God. It will not die. And people, you know, the masses are accepting of that. And I think that the same thing will happen with photography as well. In fact, um, someone who's traveled with you before, Dana. She's also traveled with me.
- [63:07]
A
Yes.
- [63:07]
B
She made this really great post the other day of this gorgeous bird photo that she made in Columbia. I love her photography. And she decided to disclose, like, hey, I made this at a curated photo setup. You know, it was near a bird feeder and blah, blah, blah. And she admitted that she, you know, still hadn't decided yet what she thought about that, but she wanted to just put it out there. Not one person. Not one person. Person commenting on her social media had an issue with that at all.
- [63:33]
A
Sure.
- [63:34]
B
And she got to disclose it and talk about it and introduce all the conversation. And it was a really refreshing thing to see. And it didn't make her photo any less beautiful. It didn't make the fact that the composition, it didn't make that any less. It didn't make the exposure less perfect. It didn't make the feeling I felt when I looked at that photo of hers. It didn't diminish that at all. And good images will stand on their own as good images, regardless of the context around them.
- [64:01]
A
I agree. And I think there is. There's also another side of it for me with the disclosing thing. You know, I do a weekly podcast with my good friend Brad James in. He's from Newfoundland, and we've talked about it on that show before ourselves about like this sort of. There's another version. I think you touched on it a little bit in your article about using playback for bird photography and how. No, it's just never talked about. And it's just like, you know, so many photos out there are used for all kinds of different uses and as like conservation uses and all this stuff. And I can look at the photo, I'm like, yeah, that was done with playback. Like, there's no way that birds just landed. It didn't just happen. Like, unless that was the luckiest photographer on the planet most of the time, a lot of a certain look of. And we'll say like certain songbirds and stuff like that. Warblers are all done with playback. And it's the kind of thing where I'm personally not afraid to disclose that, but what happens when I do is such a over the. Maybe not over the top, but it's such an attack that it becomes like, I don't want to deal with that, you know. And so I think there's also a conversation to be had about. Listen, I'm open to the conversation about is this ethically okay or not. And I've changed my opinion on it over the years. I still am okay with it in certain scenarios. And then other scenarios, I don't do it or I don't do it to the level I used to. And I think there's a conversation to be had there either way, no matter which side you fall on. But when the side opposing something attacks so aggressively and so over the top, I'd say on, especially on social media, it's hard for anybody to want to even have the conversation. And so I think it sometimes can scare people away from the disclosure because they're afraid of what may happen, happen there. And I also understand that that maybe means there's a little bit of self reflection that needs to happen. If you're feeling that way of maybe you shouldn't. You need to think about what you're doing a little bit more deeply. Because if you're having that feeling, you should be okay with putting it out there if you're okay with doing it, you know. So I guess I'm curious to hear your. Your thoughts on that side of things as well.
- [66:39]
B
Yeah, I think this is a really. So there's so much to unpack in this little bit. You're right. Like, playback is a really big one because I do have something else to add to the mix after. I kind of touch on what you were just saying. So I haven't done a lot of photography where playback was involved. But when I was guiding for Audubon in my area, a lot of times, like the only time I would ever really use Playback, I didn't really use it at all. But I would do it if it wasn't a sensitive time of year, like breeding season, mouths to feed, you know, defending territory, all of that. And I would do it like with a. I might do it once or twice if it's a lifer somebody from out of the area was trying to see and I knew it was overall not going to disrupt the general flow of things. I might try it once, twice, whatever. Right. Judiciously, I guess is the short way of saying that I use it judiciously. Yeah, but it wasn't a big part of. Big part of what. I didn't have to do that very often. So I haven't done a lot of that with photography. Mostly because I haven't been in an area where the subjects I'm photographing needed the playback to pop out. But you are right. There are so many species that you would never see in a million years. And warblers, I mean, there's a reason it's warbler neck, right? Because you're just. They live in the overstory so often and they're so hard to find. They're not going to come out unless they've been brought in by like a moth blind or something else.
- [67:58]
A
Well, I can tell you this is why I don't do those workshops anymore. This is why I phased out of Them, they were very popular for me. I loved showing people these birds. But I also started to realize over time it was one thing when I was going out on my own and doing it occasionally, like you said, judiciously in these. And I would try to go to the more remote areas because I didn't want to go where there was a bunch of other photographers and birders and people already just being around that space. Right. I wanted to be out on my own and working with birds that didn't have as much interaction with humans and stuff like that. But what I started to realize is when I do this for work, I'm doing it over and over again, day after day and stuff like that. And I'm like, it's starting to feel not great anymore, you know. And so I started to have a feeling about it and, and it was also kind of like, it was like the one thing that I felt was still a little questionable regarding all the workshops that I offered. And so I just decided like, that's it there, I'm done with them, you know. And it's not to say that I never use playback on some of my workshops occasionally in some areas where again, I feel like we're out in the middle of nowhere. This bird is never going to see anybody again. This is the one time, time. And I also learned a lot about it over the years. Like when I listen, I'll flat out say it. When I first started doing it, I did it way too much because I didn't know. And here I think is the other problem with all of this stuff, with the lack of disclosure on any of this stuff is a lack of education about it, any of it. And then you have photographers that are getting into it and then just like me, they're like, they, they find out from somebody like, oh, you can play a song and a bird will come down and then they go, oh cool. And then they just do it non stop all the time, everywhere. And it took me years to learn, like o, I need to really watch how I do this and watch the bird's behavior. Some individual birds from the same species will respond in the most casual way. It like bops down the branches and it's feeding along the way and I take a photo and it just moves on its way and blah blah, blah. And I'm like, well that feels like a non issue. But other times I'll play it and the bird comes down aggressive as hell and it's flapping its wings and it's expending all this energy. I'm like, oh shit, that's like, I don't want to do that. That's the wrong thing to do. Or I cause two birds to come together and fight. And I'm like, nope, that's it. Like, I'm done here, you know, So I learned that over the years, but that's not how it was in the beginning. And the fact that nobody talks about any of this means there's no education about any of it. It's just this hidden secret.
- [70:20]
B
Yeah. And then to your point, if you do try to disclose it and talk about it, if the conversation's immediately inflammatory, then there's no room for education either. So.
- [70:30]
A
Agreed.
- [70:30]
B
When you, you know, know, like the thing, the problem I have, and I think a lot of people have the same issue with social media is that it's very difficult to have any sort of productive conversation that moves the needle forward for most people in that kind of scenario. Absolutely. But I've had the conversations on with my groups that are actually really interesting and productive and sometimes people don't know what they don't know. You know, there's, there's just a level of ignorance we all have when we start. But then if somebody goes out with a workshop leader, say someone like you or me, and we've been doing this for years, and we introduce a behavior, the mentality can be like, well, that person's been doing this forever. I know, I like them. They're ethical, they do these things, they talk about this, they did it and it's okay. They might not. They don't have a chance to see the opposite of that or to have an informed opinion a different way.
- [71:23]
A
Absolutely.
- [71:23]
B
So ethics, ethics are so nuanced, they're personal. And I don't necessarily believe it's my role to be the ethics police, but I'm happy to talk about why I make the choices I make with people and why I choose not to do other things with people and hope that they'll come around to what I see as a, a better practice. But I, you know, it's that old, you know, you, you, you attract more flies with honey. And you were talking about how it, how the non disclosure because of that attacking perpetuates things. And I think that it perpetuates the problem. I think you couldn't be more right. It's at the ability to have these conversations and employ some critical thinking and get together as a community and discuss say like, hey, I don't necessarily agree that this is the right way to do it. Can we talk about that conversation that is open and in good faith is probably the best way to say it. When you go into a conversation in good faith with a willingness to listen to why somebody does something that they choose to do, why you don't do something that way, or whatever the case may be, that allows us to further the conversation as a community. But there is this level of hostility that exists, this, that makes it practically impossible to move the needle and to start saying like, hey, we can do better, or hey, I, you know, we've lost this ability to say like, hey, I changed my mind about something. And your, your point about like, why you don't offer these workshops anymore, you know, hey, this felt okay for a while. It doesn't feel so good anymore. So I changed my mind 100%. Nothing wrong with that. And, and we've lost sight of being able to do that in general in so many aspects of life, but specifically in wildlife photography too, that, that's a huge problem.
- [73:07]
A
Yeah, no, I totally agree. And that is a big reason why I was really excited to have you on to have this conversation because I could tell you were gonna have like, you were gonna be a great person to have this conversation with just based on how you wrote that article. You know, like, you said it was, you know, so open minded and non, non judgmental to, to these behaviors. You know, you were just being transparent about them and you weren't. I felt like, and this is, I think an important thing is it's, instead of judging the other side, it's just share your side, share the reasons what for or against something that you believe in, whether passionately or not, and, and then let people take that in and decide, right? But like, at least let's have the damn conversation. At least let's disclose this stuff. At least let's not hide behind the secrecy of this stuff and just be more transparent about so much of it. Because I agree with you, especially on that sort of like, beta thing. And I'm sure you know about this, like, it's so common in Europe for these like, staged set of hides and you know, they exist in the US like Texas and places like that, where you go in and the subjects are drawn in either by food or by water or whatever it may be. And, and props are set up sometimes for birds and all these things are basically curated. And listen, if you as a wildlife photographer want to do that, okay, as long as there's no harm being done to the wildlife, okay? But don't share that photo and pretend you had some wild encounter because they're very different things. They are very different things. And like you said, said for all the newcomers, which. There are so many of them, which is a wonderful thing. There are so many new people coming into this hobby and this passion, especially as photography gear becomes more accessible and everything, but when they see this stuff and they just feel so deflated or just no comprehension of how that could be possible, I'll never be able to do that. When the reality is, is it was constructed. That's a disservice to these newcomers. Absolutely.
- [75:30]
B
Yeah. And to our subjects, too. Like when we.
- [75:33]
A
Yeah.
- [75:34]
B
When we misrepresent how an image was made, we're not just being economical with the truth about ourselves. We're misrepresenting the animal, and we're telling this false story about how wildlife actually behaves and where it actually lives. You know what? We shape understanding every time we post an image and choose what to say about it. People who don't have. Yeah. People who don't have the luxury of going on the trips that you and I get to go on or the people who travel with us get to go on, they live vicariously through our images, and they're. They. You know, I'm sure I go back to thinking about this one particular woman I went to high school with, and years ago, she commented on one of my photos, and she said, I will never be able to travel the world like you do, but every time you share something, I feel like I get to go on a trip. And I grew up in a very economically depressed area in rural Wisconsin, and I have been fortunate enough. I'm about to add country number 41 to my list next week.
- [76:32]
A
Wow.
- [76:32]
B
I have seen so many tremendous things in my lifetime. And when I think about her comment, I think about what she said, knowing that she has never been outside of the state other than neighboring Minnesota.
- [76:46]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [76:47]
B
You know, and I think about that. That. And when I'm taking her with me, I want to take her to a place that's honest, and I want her to experience these things, and I want her to understand what it's like, you know, like, she's this prototype in my head of the people who are watching my work, and I want to make sure that my audience is believing what is actually correct. You know, the subjects of our photographs have no voice in how they are represented. That's an enormous amount of power that we hold behind the lens. And I think that as a community, we've been all too cavalier about that.
- [77:21]
A
Yeah, I very much agree. And I think there's as a photographer, whether professional or not, just doing it as a hobby, have the confidence to just be okay with however you captured that photo. Because it's all right. Because there is such a difference between when I'm, you know, photographing a bird, probably in a place that has never had a foot set upon it up in the tundra in Nome, versus when I'm working just next to a pod parking lot with a tricolored heron in Florida and I'm getting a reflection in a puddle. And arguably that Florida bird photo might be more amazing because I was able to photograph it with a 24 millimeter lens because I could walk right up to the damn thing and it didn't care. Right. But I need to be okay with sharing that as well. And I try to, you know, and listen, not that it's required that every photographer say everything about it, but listen, it doesn't take more than a half a second to say, you know, photograph this acclimated bird in a parking lot in Florida. Right. It doesn't require a whole drawn out story. But when you see, and I've seen it recently, like a photographer I knew traveled to a certain place and I knew where they were, and then I saw the photo they shared and the story that was written behind it, and I was just like, like, I'm sorry, those do not match up. Like, the story you just told is not what happens when you photograph that thing at that place. It's not at all. You made one hell of a story. You're a good writer, you know, but like, holy crap, that's misleading, right?
- [78:57]
B
Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. Like, imposter syndrome in this community runs deep. And I am no stranger to it. I deal with it every single day. And I think it runs a lot deeper than most people want to admit. And when you always feel like you don't deserve to be in a space, the last thing that you want to do is give anyone else a reason to think that you don't belong in this space. You know, you feel like you're hanging on by a thread, like, like, oh, I'm not good enough, or this or that. Like, we doubt ourselves. And I think disclosing it somehow feels like they're saying they're less than, which couldn't be further from the truth. And actually, you know, like, the stories behind how we get our work are cool. You know, like that tricolor heron example in a puddle. Like, you put that up on social media, people will be like, dang, how did you see it? Like that. Because I would never see it like that. Right. Like that's the message.
- [79:46]
A
Absolutely. It's just embrace that stuff. Who cares when it's easy, just share that part about it and say, look what I did with this easy subject.
- [79:56]
B
You know, like, that's okay, nothing wrong with it. And in fact, like, the more we take over the space where wildlife lives as well, I think that becomes even more part of the story.
- [80:07]
A
Absolutely.
- [80:07]
B
And there's also, there's a, there's also like you gave this example of like this acclimated bird and blah, blah, blah. You know, 98% of the people reading your post will not even pick up on the word acclimated if you throw it in there or, you know, you know, like so many people are just going to look at the photo and be taken by that photo that the rest of it is just sort of tangential. Like it's, it's the image that makes the impact Right. When they see something like that. So there's, there's really like. I would argue that I think most people will find that the people who take trust their images, who see their work will be equally as in awe of their work. Disclosing it or not. I think they will find that it makes no difference to how people perceive what they do. And there's like 1% if that of the professional wildlife photographers in the world who live the life that we all want to think we live totally. Who live that image of the Nat Geodream, as I call it. Right?
- [81:05]
A
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
- [81:09]
B
It's a real thing. But even that like 1%, like the Paul and Midi or the Bertie Gregory's or like these isolated incredible photographers rely on huge teams to pull off what they pull off for a reason. It's an enormous amount of work and it's wonderful work. And we were talking about how the payoff to when we earn it is so much better. But I still feel excited when I get the puddle image. You know, I still get excited because a good image is just a good image, no matter how we get it. And our lives are more intertwined with wildlife than they ever have been. And they're only going to get more intertwined as space continues to dwindle. So let's just own a little bit of that and talk about these encounters that anybody in any place can have with an animal. And how lucky are we to be able to do that?
- [81:57]
A
Absolutely. And I agree with also the sentiment and I say I agree with it because I know I've experienced It. And. And I am. No, I'm not totally beyond it, because it's something I think I, as a photographer will always be working against the ego part of it. And so much of that with, like, an example of, you know, photographers photographing these amazing things in these incredible places, but never mentioning the guy that they hired who actually lived there and is the one that has been studying the subject for 15 years. Years. And then you just hired them and showed up and took the photo. And then you share that photo with none of that information behind it and again, your audience. Because all we can do is assume. We just assume you went out and encountered this and took this photo. And it's like, again, just if we can let that ego go and share about that, it can let others know it's possible for them, you know, But I also wonder how much of that is on purpose, because sometimes I think there's probably an element of, I don't want you to be able to go just go hire the same guide and go get the same damn photo or something similar, because I want mine to be unique. And like, I don't know. I get it. But also, it wasn't just your photo at that point, you know?
- [83:28]
B
Yeah. And that's. Oh, I have so many things about that. Well, it's not just your photo. Right. Like, one of the conversations that I've had with other photographers in the past is, you know, I know that you have seen this from people who travel with you, too, where it's like, you see these people who've entered images into contests that go on to win or whatever, and they were on your workshop or your tour when they made it, and it was like, man, I remember having to help you fix that exposure in camera and telling you how to change the shutter speed. And basically, you know, here's the background you want to use for this, and you've walked them through the whole photo and it's like, but congratulations on being a finalist for the Audubon contest. I guess.
- [84:06]
A
Totally.
- [84:07]
B
Right. It's like, but, you know, team effort. Effort. You're happy for your person.
- [84:10]
A
Absolutely.
- [84:11]
B
Because that's obviously important for them. Right. Like, it's, you know, but it is kind of. It's kind of an interesting thing. I actually asked about that in. In that survey that I brought up earlier, which was like, why do you go on these? And a lot of people, a huge part of the population, if I can find it, I'm sure I've got it here. I'll have to send it to you. Just so you can read through some of the results. But sure, a huge amount of the, the people who go on these went on them to find new locations that they could then go do the again themselves. They wanted someone to them through it first and they wanted to create images for contests. Those were like the two biggest drivers were to create images they knew they couldn't create on their own, so they'd have them for contests. And I thought, well, that's refreshingly honest. But really it was an eye opener. I did not expect that to be like one of the top ranking reasons that people just wanted to get images and go to places that they couldn't figure out how to get or do themselves. And as photographers, you know, we're not. What's. How do I want to put this? You know, in our positions, you and I and people who are our peers, we're selling something that can't be easily quantified. It's access, vision, proximity to the wildness. There's all sorts of these like key things that kind of go into it. And so there is that instinctive urge to protect it and to make sure. It's like, you know, I've had that situation happen where someone's gone on a trip and then suddenly, oh look, now they're going to lead that same itinerary. They used my trip to scout. Right. I've been in that position and it really sucks when you've invested thousands of dollars into something and they haven't even done it on their own. They just used your. And they're like using the photographs from your trip to market their trip. You're just like, oh my gosh. And you know, that happens. That's a very real thing that happens in the industry. So there's is that need to feel like you have to protect it or you maybe don't want to say something and you kind of want to hold it close to the vest. And when you have something that's not easily quantified, that access or the wildness and getting people out there, the minute someone starts to question how did you get that or where was this? Or whatever, it feels like they're questioning the entire thing that you sell. Like your livelihood is on. And so that's really terrifying if your identity and your income. Aren't they the same thing?
- [86:28]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [86:31]
B
You know, that's a great point. And we, it's, it's a really weird balance to walk to, to it is to stay on that line between I want to be transparent as possible, but I also need to protect my livelihood. And you know, once somebody goes on. And the wildlife, what's that?
- [86:47]
A
And the wildlife too, sometimes. Right. Some things, it's just they shouldn't have 500 people going to say them all the time.
- [86:54]
B
Yes, 100%. You know, I, I think that's like a big driver is trying to think of like new places to go for the same things. One of the reasons I'm trying to explore some more spots in the prairies, it's another reason I'm trying to find new places for bears. You know, having lived in Alaska for three years gave me a lot of different ideas that aren't so well known and, but they're not always easy to get to. You know, you've got to like, hey, can you. How do you feel about like going in a raft for two days before we get to this spot or taking, you know, like there might little more work to it. And I think a lot of people are up for that if they can physically handle it. But it's totally. It gets harder and harder to find those things, especially with so many people coming into the business as tour leaders or workshop leaders. I know we're seeing so many more and I think like the pandemic hit and a lot of people got more in touch with wildlife and nature, which was awesome in a lot of ways. And then, you know, sometimes we loved things to death, which was not so awesome. But, but you know, we have this whole new crop, this whole new generation of wildlife photographers, and I call them like the wildlifer, like the influencer wildlife photographers who all want to do this kind of work and they're young and scrappy and they're going to figure their way out. I'm confident of that. But it does change. At least in the handful of years that I've been really focused on wildlife workshops. It's really changed the landscape in terms of expectation versus is reality for a lot of people who are looking to go on these trips.
- [88:25]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I am all for more people getting into this, you know, like, listen, I mean, is it competition? Yeah, maybe. But I try to feel confident enough in my product and my service that it will stand up on its own against that stuff, you know.
- [88:45]
B
Right.
- [88:46]
A
And I don't inherently have a problem with people with limited experience doing it, other than the fact that when you aren't putting in the work and you aren't putting in the. Or you don't have the experience and then you take somebody else's hard earned money, that's where I just feel like, it's, it's really unfortunate for the people that are signing up for those tours and workshops that they just don't know any better. And so they're spending sometimes the same, sometimes more surprisingly, for these outings and these experiences, and then getting a subpar experience or just simply not getting taught at all, or getting taught bad field craft or, you know, because this photographer doesn't have enough experience with the wildlife, they don't really know how to teach the proper approach and stuff like that. And again, not saying I'm perfect at any of this. I'm also. I'm still learning too. But, you know, when you do have a certain level of experience, you have more to offer flat out as far as working with these wild subjects and creating unique images and stuff like that. And when someone else just comes along that's been doing it for a year or less, like you shared in that survey, and then they're taking your money, that's unfortunate that. That's kind of frustrating to me.
- [90:11]
B
Yeah, it's. I, yeah, same. I think, I think that's. That's where transparency comes back into play too, is just like knowing what you're capable of as a guide versus what you're not. Like, there are some things. So I have some trips that I've never done before that I've thoroughly researched. And even though I'm an experienced wildlife photographer, experienced guide, and even experienced in those ecosystems for some of them, because they're new to me, trips that I haven't executed as a full end to end work workshop.
- [90:43]
A
Totally. Yep.
- [90:44]
B
I don't even charge full price for that. It's basically cost.
- [90:46]
A
Yeah.
- [90:47]
B
And I have, you know, some people who have wanted to go on my trips but maybe couldn't quite get there economically or some people are just like, well, you know, Annalise, we've traveled with you a hundred times. So, like, we're on board. We. We know it'll be fine. You'll figure it out, you know, and so like, I don't even feel comfortable charging and I disclose it up front, of course, saying like, hey, I haven't done this from a start to finish workshop. I've done parts of it, or I've done none of it, or I've researched this, but I haven't executed it. And so they, they have the agency to decide. And I'm fortunate I have a people who trust me to do that. But yeah, I think that's a big part of it. Or I don't know if you agree with this. You can Tell me what you think. But the photography part, that's teachable, that's easily teachable. But guiding is a skill that is a totally different ball game. Guiding and teaching. And I would say the majority of what I do comes down to group management, safety, logistics, and being able to guide and talk about, about it is 90% of the job. And the photography is just like this tiny little part.
- [91:48]
A
Absolutely, completely agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [91:51]
B
And that's why you have some of these people who are great photographers, but then their clients are like, I feel like all I did, all I got on that trip was like, I was paying for, you know, them to do their photography. And I just didn't really get anything. And I'm like, ah, you got a photographer who wasn't ever a guide and didn't understand the guiding part.
- [92:06]
A
Totally. Yeah. And listen, if you disclose that up front, if you're saying, I'm just, you're paying me to take you to this place and then you're kind of on your own, that's fine again. Right. It's the transparency aspect of it. Right. There are, you know, there is a distinction. There are some photographers that, like, that's what they lead. They're like, I'm, I'm going out to shoot too, and you can tag along and I've got all the logistics handled for you and you're, that's what you're paying for. That's cool as long as you say that. But if you sell that as the same thing, what you and I are trying to offer, they're two very different things, you know?
- [92:39]
B
Yeah.
- [92:39]
A
And it doesn't feel very honest to, to disclose that or to not disclose it. I'm sorry.
- [92:46]
B
Yeah, it does, it does feel dishonest. It feels like an omission. And going back to that survey that I did, trying to understand the disparity between tour participants or workshop participants in the industry, when I ask, like, do you know the difference between a workshop and a tour? I think most of us who do these differentiate where, like, a tour is kind of like what you were just talking about. You pay me, I've handled the logistics. I'll help you if you ask here and there. But, like, don't expect a whole lot of education out of other than like, whatever is sort of happening in the moment. Whereas, like, with a workshop, you know, I expect, like with my floating blind workshop that we were talking about, the whole first day is just a classroom day. That's all field craft, that's all learning how to do all these things. It's 100% classroom, it's no photography. I'm just getting you ready and set up for success. And we're going to talk about all these things in a full eight hours classroom day. Kind of a setup. But, and people do that. But people said, and this is so funny to me, people in the survey said they knew the data difference. And then when I broke it down in like overwhelmingly, they're like, yeah, like 80% or whatever it was said they knew the difference between a workshop and a tour. But then when I broke it down based with questions on workshops, people did expect the education. But then when I broke down the questions about the tour, they were also like very upset that they didn't get any education. They didn't get any of this. All they did was get kind of pointed in the direction of where they were going. And like, so they don't know the difference totally. And, and then like, maybe like, how do I, how. Make like note to self, make sure this is very clear. Like if you're going with me for like a workshop based thing, expect this education and I will leave my camera in the bag, you know, many times over. I don't even take it out because I'm so focused on, you know, depending on the skill level or the situation. Now if I get something like groundbreaking that's happening, I'm gonna pull my camera out. But my priority is making sure you get those photos. And I think, you know, that can be a big difference too is just at some point people don't know what they don't know. So maybe they don't realize that a workshop and tour might be different or, you know, those are questions people should feel free to ask. You know, your listeners should feel free to ask.
- [94:45]
A
Yeah.
- [94:46]
B
Of that person that they're spending this money with, like, hey, what can I expect for this? Or this wasn't here, you know. Yeah, ask, ask, ask. And exactly. And if you're not sure, like I got this question after that article, people were like, you know, oh, I'm going on this trip now. I don't know if it's going, if the animals might be baited or not. Just ask, ask. Hey, how are, how are we going to be photographing these birds and be direct about it. That's going to further the conversation too, is being an engaged participant. And, and if you're not sure of something, ask. I don't know any legit workshop or tour leader who is going to be upset with you for asking a question that wasn't clear about their Their trip on a website. Okay, maybe I know one. But he's holding cantankerous, so that's okay.
- [95:26]
A
Yeah. And listen, like, also so you know, that is completely and utterly on the workshop or tour leader who is, you know, ready to easily accept thousands of dollars from you. They better be ready to answer some damn questions. You know, like, that's fine to ask questions. Listen, 90% of the people that sign up for my workshops are just like, yeah, I'm interested. I'm like, cool. Any questions? They're like, no, we're good. Here you go. Sign up for the paperwork, pay the deposit, we're good to go. But I have some people that ask. Yeah, I mean, it's like a week's long back and forth, Emails and phone calls even and everything. It's like one's a lot more work. But guess what? You're paying me a lot of money or I'm asking you to pay me a lot of money. So I get it. You should have every right to ask all the questions you want to feel comfortable with what you're about to spend. Like, there seems nothing wrong with that.
- [96:15]
B
Yeah. I don't want somebody to book a trip if they feel like they're concerned about anything. I'd much rather spend weeks answering those questions than. And have them not book knowing they made the right decision.
- [96:27]
A
Yeah.
- [96:28]
B
And I think it's going to be hard.
- [96:29]
A
Better for everybody.
- [96:30]
B
It is. And sometimes, you know, one leader might be a better fit than another. Sometimes, you know, it's just how it all works out. That's just part of the. That's part of it. But like you said, I'm asking you to pay and invest thousands of dollars in a trip with me and to trust me and to do these things. So I will make sure you are confident in that decision. Because the last thing a lot of you know, I know you've heard this, but our groups come together. They all talk about who they've traveled with and where they've been and experience. They recommend other people. The last thing any of us wants, especially as small independent oper, is for someone to feel like they had a bait and switch moment or they were having, you know, they didn't get what they asked for. They felt like they were misled or maybe something wasn't clear. Like none of us want that. We would much rather have an investment of our time that goes to nowhere than to have you invest money in a trip that you then felt like was misleading or inaccurate because that one bad experience will follow us forever. And that's definitely something that none of us want.
- [97:27]
A
Absolutely. And there's also just, you know, you gotta get along with me, you know, like, it's okay if you don't, you know, like you said. Right. There's just individual preferences there. Not everybody loves my personality. And that's cool, you know, and if you realize that in all of these questions and interactions and everything, better to realize it now than after you've spent all that money and then you're stuck with me for X number of days and stuff like that, you know, it's totally fine. Yeah, it's totally fine.
- [97:53]
B
Yeah. And then. Yeah. And it's also very obvious if they don't like you and don't connect with you. And that makes it a really difficult workshop for everyone else in the community.
- [98:00]
A
Totally, totally.
- [98:02]
B
I don't have a whole lot of people on, like, my, what I call, like, lovingly, my no fly list. They're not bad people. They're just maybe not the best people for group dynamic type situations.
- [98:10]
A
Exactly.
- [98:10]
B
You know, it's like, yeah, the tour doesn't revolve around you. And the one thing that I did not advertise at all. So we can travel again together, just not in a group situation.
- [98:21]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [98:22]
B
You know, so it's kind of like that. But yes, I think everybody should ask questions, make sure they understand the answers. And also to them to that point. A lot of times I've heard people are like, well, I didn't want to ask because I didn't want to be seen as like, stupid or too much of a beginner. And I don't think any of us would ever think that about somebody. We all started somewhere. We all were very confused about why a smaller number on the aperture meant that it was wider.
- [98:47]
A
Why?
- [98:48]
B
That makes no sense. We all went through all of these confusing phases and none of us will make fun of you for asking a question that you think might be stupid, especially if it leads to. To clarity. Ask away.
- [98:57]
A
And guess what? Like, not for nothing, I love the beginners. They're so much easier to teach. I can show you so much like somebody that's really advanced. It's really hard for me to go like, all right, here's something new for you. You know, if they're really experienced, everything you give me somebody beginner, I'm showing you the most basic shit. And you're like, woohoo. And everybody's happy, you know, Easiest in the world, right?
- [99:18]
B
And then suddenly and like, they feel famous when they go home because their friends and Family are like, dang, where'd you do that?
- [99:24]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [99:24]
B
Yeah. Because we're. You're a beginner. You. You grow by leaps and bounds, and then you get more advanced. It's like these millimeter advances, and you have to start really, like, thinking through the toolkit. Okay. How can I challenge this person?
- [99:35]
A
Totally.
- [99:36]
B
You know, like, oh. Oh, yeah. No, that's true.
- [99:39]
A
A little more stressful sometimes.
- [99:41]
B
Sometimes they can be both, like, the. The. The best and the worst. Like, the best. Because, you know. You know that they're going to go and show the images and be like, yeah, Annalise took me here. And everybody's gonna be like, dang. I want to go on that. If that's the kind of imagery you're getting. And then, like, their friend comes who's, you know, picked up their camera two weeks ago for the. And you're like, great. But you can still get those images for them. And that's really exciting when you get to show them, like, this is how it's done, and this is how the sauce is made. And now, you know, this, you know, welcome to the club sort of feeling. It's really. It is a really great feeling to get to teach anybody.
- [100:10]
A
Yeah. I have one question I want to ask to kind of wrap up the conversation, which has been amazing. Thank you for joining me. But I'm curious about your thoughts on this, because this is something I've been sort of realizing, and I've touched on this in talking to Brad before, but Brad only works with. He does the Newfoundland Puffins and Gannets tour with me. That's it. We. Because that's where he lives. Everything else I do on my own. Since you run a lot more workshops all over the world, what I've come to realize is I think so many people that attend workshops and tours, and no matter what you're attending to go on a trip and pay money to take these photos. The photography is the upfront, obvious reason that they're doing this. But in. In the end, what I feel like I'm starting to notice and learn more and more is the photography isn't really what matters in the end. It's simply the experience. And my evidence for that is some super experienced. The most amazing photographers will join me sometimes on these trips, and I'm pushing them hard, and I'm seeing on their camera or on their laptops during downtime, amazing images, and they shoot like crazy. And sometimes, you know, we're talking, like, depending. Some of these trips, I've worked with photographers. They're taking 10,000 images in a trip and crazy numbers, and then they go back, and then I see three photos shared on social media or wherever. They share their photos over the next, you know, many months, and it just blows my mind. I'm like, you have so many incredible photos sitting on your hard drive. I saw them. I watched you press the shutter button. And yet they share so few of them. And it kind of just started resonating with me, like, yeah, they're saying they're going here for the photos. They're. The photo is what they want, and they're going on a photo workshop. But in the end, it really is about this experience that they're getting to experience. And the photos after the fact, they barely look through half of them and then only share a couple. I'm curious what your thoughts on that are.
- [102:22]
B
Yeah, I think it's. I think it's a little bit of both, because I think you're right. I think the experience is what ends up being the highlight. The photo is the motivation. The photography is the motivation. The experience as a whole is. Yeah, yeah. Like, I. My last workshop that I did, it's been a few months now, was in Brazil, and I had one of those great groups where it could not have been a better group.
- [102:50]
A
Nice.
- [102:51]
B
Everybody gelled well. We laughed the whole time. We all had cramps in our size because we were having so much fun. We could not have had more fun on that trip. And I really felt like. Like, that's one for the record books. For me, it's gonna be really hard to top that group dynamic that I had in Brazil. Like, that to this day, will be the best workshop I ever had. And not because the wildlife was going our way or whatever, but because we were all having so, so much fun that the wild, the photography part of it was just a connection point, but it wasn't the key.
- [103:21]
A
Yep.
- [103:22]
B
So I think you're right. I think there's something to be said about that. You know, there's all these incredible feelings and emotions, and we remember that feeling when we hit the shutter button in that situation. And those images tend to be the ones that stand out that clients share when they get back from a workshop or whatever right away. Or like these. Maybe it was something technical that they finally really nailed, or maybe it was just because it was a really stunning image or whatever it might be. Be. And they only share a few. And then on the flip side of that, I have so many people, and this is just a little bit of the levity to it, but I have so many people who are like, I can't believe I did 10,000 photos. I don't even want to start calling because I have no idea what to do. Totally the overwhelm.
- [104:00]
A
Yeah.
- [104:01]
B
But no, I think you're right. I think you. I think you have hit on it. It really is the experience and nothing. My evidence for that is, you know, I did some photography guiding for another company for a short stint and I was, I wasn't. What's. How do I want to put this? I'll just put it this way. I guided for another company for a while. It was short lived for reasons. And when I was leaving, I remember trying to smooth over a couple of situations where I knew that I had a trip where a lot of my personal clients had decided to join me on this group with another company. And the owner of the company very sassily told me, well, Anneliese, people don't book a trip for the guides. They book it for the workshop or they book it for the itinerary. Yeah, nobody books it because of the guide. And let's just say they found out real fast that they book it for the guide.
- [104:56]
A
Well. And guess what? If they do, that's not a company I would ever want to work with.
- [105:01]
B
Yeah. And precisely. And that's why it was short lived. It was just like, no, like I'm not going to break my back over this situation. And you know, there's a reason, like I'm. I've worked really hard to have the retention rate I have. And I know you have too. And people get to know you and your work and. And that's why you have people who just email and like, yeah, I want to go on this trip, no problem. Sign me up and it's easy peasy. And yeah, the experience though, like, I learned so much about me in those experiences when I'm with good groups like that too. Like traveling with the people we get to travel is such an enriching and rewarding part of what we do. Whether they're beginner photographers or advanced or we've traveled with them a hundred times. But for me, seeing their final work, like you said, it's so disheartening when you just see those few images because you're like, dude, you killed it out there.
- [105:51]
A
Exactly.
- [105:51]
B
You did your best work. Yeah, show me more. I want to see more. Because that's the payoff for me is like seeing those images and seeing how much people love your work. That's. I get so much, much joy out of that.
- [106:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what I realized. I think it's like so many of them, they're like. Are they're on to the next one. And I get it. Like, that's the fun part. And that's what I think I'm realizing. It's like, it's. It's the actual act of being out there, trying to capture these photos, pushing yourself creatively, pushing yourself physically emotionally exhausted, having these incredible encounters. All of that is it. But what's so funny is the motivation to do it up front is I'm going to get these amazing photos that I'm going to share. But the reality is, I think so many of these people attending these things are hooked on that experience. And then they just go on to the next one and the next one and the next one. It's like the photos, they just sit there and they. And they add up. And I totally get it. I totally get it.
- [106:49]
B
Yeah. And I love seeing people who meet on one of my workshops then travel together somewhere else. Like, they met for the first time here, and now they're to going off to do this trip over here that, you know, with someone else that I don't do or whatever. But they all met because of a connection here, and now they're friends and they go do these things. Like, that's so awesome. I absolutely love that. It really is. Yeah. And this has been such a great conversation. I know it started with my article, and I wrote that because I know what it's like to be inside of a situation where the honest version of your own story isn't available to you. We're speaking, you know, plainly about what was yours, what wasn't, what you believed, what you were simply going along with was. Wasn't possible. It carried this weight that kept you quiet. And I lived in that quiet for a while, and I got comfortable there in these ways that just were not good for me. So having this opportunity to write what I wrote and have this conversation with you, coming back to this honesty and reclaiming my voice and being able to talk about these things again and hold myself accountable. Like in my work, in my essay that I wrote in college, conversations like what you and I are having, this isn't just professional recalibration for me. This is also a personal recovery from that phase of my life. And it's been so refreshing to have this dialogue and be able to talk about so many of these things that I never get to talk about with another peer. Totally with someone who's going through a lot of things. This was just so wonderful. Ray, I cannot thank you enough.
- [108:17]
A
Oh, I very much agree. Same to you. I can't say it any better. Thank you so much for setting aside your time. I know it was. I'm glad the scheduling all worked out because it's always a tough thing for photographers like us to line things up. So I'm really glad it worked out. And the last thing I'll ask is, can you just share? Where's the best place for people to follow your work if they're not already?
- [108:41]
B
Oh, I usually share most everything on Instagram at Annalise Kaler. Otherwise on my website@annalisekaylor.com and I usually post all my email stuff up to my blog a day or two after I've emailed it out.
- [108:53]
A
Awesome. Perfect. Anneliese, thank you so much. I wish you the best with everything coming up. I. I can't wait to continue to see what you keep producing and writing. And again, thank you so much for joining me.
- [109:05]
B
Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you.
- [109:07]
A
Hey, this is Ray Hennessy. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode. Please subscribe and your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.