255: Kyle Doerksen

Summary

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Wildlife Photo Chat — Episode 255: Kyle Doerksen

Date: May 19, 2026
Host: Ray Hennessy
Guest: Kyle Doerksen

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Episode Overview

This episode features wildlife photographer Kyle Doerksen, whose creative journey has recently shifted from international travel photography to deep local exploration around Los Angeles, California—particularly along the LA River. Ray and Kyle dive deep into the philosophy, technique, and creative evolution behind Kyle’s distinctive style, discuss the challenges and joys of photographing both in exotic destinations and urban habitats, and explore the ways branching into other genres fuels wildlife creativity. They reflect on the pressure-cooker environment of social media, the importance of experimentation, and the rewards of building a photographic community.
Main theme: Embracing creativity and storytelling by slowing down, working locally, and pushing the boundaries of wildlife photography.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transitioning to Local: The LA River Project

• Relocating to LA: Kyle and his wife recently moved to Los Angeles; while familiar with the city, he’s new to its wild side.
• Focus on Ecosystems Over Species:
  • “Going to the LA River with the intention of shooting the LA River versus the species is what is really rewarding. So I'm not concerned about chasing warblers this season. I'm more just concerned about going down to the river and seeing what I see.” — Kyle (01:52)
• Photographing Common Species in Unique Contexts:
  • Canada geese, Egyptian geese, and egrets are frequent subjects—not for their rarity, but for their environment and story.

2. The Value of Revisiting and Slowing Down

• Depth Through Repetition:
  • “I'm producing the best images of my, you know, photography career...because I'm actually in a place for a long time, you know, I can go revisit these places over and over again.” — Kyle (03:56)
• Experimenting with Light: Shoots at various times—morning, midday, evening—to master different lighting and uncover fresh perspectives.
• Less Pressure, More Creativity:
  • “There's less pressure when you're like, well, if it doesn't work out today, I can be out here tomorrow or the next day or the next day or whatever.” — Ray (05:09)

3. Local vs. Travel: Pros, Cons, and Mindsets

• Learning to Appreciate the Ordinary:
  • “There's someone in Singapore that's super excited to see, you know, a grackle.” — Kyle (06:05)
• International Travels:
  • Observes that many popular international bird shots are staged (feeders, setups), shifting his perception of authenticity.
  • Patagonia in Chile stands out for its unique birds, ecosystem, and uncharted photographic potential.
• Letting Go of the Checklist:
  • “If you kind of just let it be and don't care about the species you see or don't have this expectation of a checklist...it's a blast, man.” — Ray (10:13)

4. Genre Fusion & Evolving Style

• From Birder to Photographer & Beyond:
  • Started wanting ID shots; transitioned into artistry and storytelling.
  • Shifts between genres (street, concert, comedy club photography) to break creative ruts and fuel wildlife work.
  • “Our wildlife photography makes us so much better at other genres.” — Kyle (15:31)
• Learning from Mistakes & Other Genres:
  • Street photography taught him to shoot wider, incorporate more layers and context, and embrace higher contrast and urban elements.

5. Composition, Storytelling, and Uniqueness

• New Priorities in Images:
  • Focus on habitat, environment, and “storytelling” over traditional, frame-filling portraits.
  • “I'm trying to add as much into a photo as I can without being completely distracting...If I can provide context or background up, I'm going to try to do that.” — Kyle (58:16)
• Importance of Variation:
  • “I just don't want things to look the same all the time.” — Kyle (23:22)
• Technical Evolution:
  • Now frequently stops down for greater depth, aware of depth-of-field as both tool and potential crutch.
• Intentional Limitations:
  • Advocates for deliberate restrictions—leaving the big lens at home, limiting focal length—to force creative growth.

6. Urban Wildlife Photography & Conservation

• Inspiration in Urban Grit:
  • “The best luck photographing black neck stilts in the LA river than anywhere else in California. So abundant...They’re just in a trash heap.” — Kyle (35:44)
  • Urban settings provide both narrative and aesthetic challenges—seeing beauty and stories where others overlook them.
• Environmental Concerns:
  • “97% of California wetlands are gone. It's the most habitat loss of any state...shorebird populations are down 50% since the 1970s.” — Kyle (30:30)
  • Kyle aims to document and raise awareness about rapidly disappearing habitats.

7. Community & Personal Growth

• Building Real-World Photographic Community:
  • Kyle initiated local group meetups (inspired by pre-social media days), seeing immense value in in-person connection and shared experience.
  • “I'm just, like, really seeking community in person these days...I'm trying to foster that where I can.” — Kyle (67:29)
• Learning Fieldcraft from Others: Shooting with other photographers, especially those skilled in different niches, is a huge growth lever.

8. Creativity, Uniqueness, and Social Media

• Striving for Originality:
  • “That's like the one thing I kind of care about at this point. It's just like I gotta be different...I hope my goal is someone can look at my stuff and be like, oh, that's Kyle.” — Kyle (36:33)
• Sitting on Shots, Re-evaluation:
  • Now holds images for a week or more before posting to assess quality beyond “newness” excitement.
• Sharing Multiple Genres:
  • Decided to mix his non-wildlife work into his main profile: “I don't really want to be a wildlife photographer. I'd rather just be a photographer. And I do a lot of wildlife photography.” — Kyle (75:48)

9. Technical & Gear Discussion

• Gear Mobility > Gear Quality:
  • “I'll take mobility over sharpness...with the modern stuff, I don't even really feel like there's much of a compromise with sharpness.” — Kyle (50:49)
• Working with Limitations:
  • Finds value in entry-level zooms for flexibility—shot much of his travels with a Tamron 28-200.
• Urban Safety & Gear:
  • Carrying larger, attention-drawing lenses in urban environments brings practical concerns; sometimes carries pepper spray.

10. The Big Trip: Inspiration & Impact

• Catalyst: Mother’s illness and pandemic hardships led Kyle and his wife to “go full send” and spend 13 months abroad, visiting ~19 countries.
• Life Philosophy:
  • “I want to travel and I've always wanted to do it, and I do not want to get into my mid-60s...and regret not doing it.” — Kyle (71:04)
• Returning Home: Now finding new meaning in documenting, conserving, and truly seeing his home state.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Creative Shift
  • “Every time I would get stuck...I would just switch to another genre and try something else, walk away for a while. And I think that's informed so much what I do now when I return to wildlife.” — Kyle (13:26)
• On Backing Up for Context
  • “Instead of getting closer, it's like, how many layers can I put on this?” — Kyle (16:57)
• On Urban Wildlife Scenes
  • “I've had the best luck photographing black neck stilts in the LA river than anywhere else in California. They're all over the river. I'm like, one of the most beautiful birds. What are you doing here? You're just in a trash heap.” — Kyle (35:44)
• On Value of Community
  • “It's such a...hobby is so fun and the people you meet are often so like minded...it's usually not just wildlife photography you have in common. There's usually a bunch of other stuff, you know, so really enjoyed it.” — Kyle (69:35)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Starting Local LA River Project / Change in Approach: 00:48–03:07
• Benefits of Revisiting Local Spots & Less Pressure: 03:56–05:21
• Travel vs. Local – Lessons Learned & Changing Priorities: 06:05–07:53
• Authenticity vs. Setup in Travel Bird Photography: 07:53–08:42
• Habitat Loss & Conservation Motivation: 30:14–32:16
• Incorporating Other Photography Genres: 13:11–15:43 & 54:25–55:13
• Creativity and Layers in Composition: 16:57–17:07 & 58:16–58:26
• Urban/Street Approach to Wildlife: 35:07–37:13
• Community and Field Meetups: 66:07–67:38
• Life-Changing Travel Decision & Reflections: 70:11–74:00

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Additional Highlights

• On Style Evolution: Kyle now embraces “backing up” and capturing more layers, using architectural elements in urban wildlife photography, and seeks out stories rather than trophy shots.
• On Ethical Awareness: Takes a California naturalist course to learn flora, fauna, and ethics deeper than just the wildlife subject.
• On Burnout & Finding Inspiration: Periodically steps away from wildlife to avoid burnout, returns with fresh eyes and new skills learned from other genres.

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Concluding Thought

This episode is a masterclass in creative approach, resilience, and adaptability in wildlife photography—reminding listeners that seeing differently, staying curious, working locally, and fostering community can be as important (if not more) as globe-trotting for exotic wildlife.

Kyle’s ongoing journey proves that the most personal and original work often arises close to home, especially when done with intention, open experimentation, and collaboration.

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[Find Kyle’s photography or connect via Instagram—link in show notes.]

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Wildlife Photo Chat. I'm incredibly excited and it's got. I gotta say, it's long overdue to have Kyle Dirksen on the show. Kyle, how's it going, man?

[B]

I'm doing well. Happy to be here.

[A]

Excellent, Excellent. Yeah. We were just talking before we hit record and it's funny, Matt, this happens to me sometimes where all of a sudden, like, this is what happened the other day. I saw a photo you shared. I was like, this stuff is amazing. And then it dawned on me. I haven't had Kyle on the show yet. And so I immediately asked, and thankfully you said yes, and here we are.

[B]

Yeah. Dude, I am honored.

[A]

Yeah, it's great to have you. What have you been up to lately?

[B]

Just me and my wife moved out to LA pretty recently. And so although I'm pretty familiar with the area, I'm not really familiar with it on the wildlife front. So I've been exploring la, basically.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I've had a couple kind of on ongoing projects that I've started. Mainly it's the LA River.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It runs from the San Fernando Valley all the way down to Long Beach. So there's just a ton of opportunities. There's different. Different ecosystems. And it's been. It's been a kind of a fun challenge and something to, like, focus my attention. Instead of just going out blindly looking for stuff, I kind of have a little focus.

[A]

Yeah, it's nice. That's a big difference, isn't it?

[B]

Huge. Yeah, huge.

[A]

Not that there's anything wrong with either way, but it just. It feels different as far as an outing goes, doesn't it?

[B]

Yeah. And like, it's more of a focus on the actual ecosystem versus species. You know, I'm finding myself taking a lot more pictures of Canada goose.

[A]

Yeah, you know, totally.

[B]

Because I'm like, well, there's some cool stuff in the background here, and that's what I'm here to capture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like Egyptian, Egyptian geese, Canada geese. What are we talking here? Snowy egrets. Like, stuff that are very common. But I think going to the LA river with the intention of shooting the LA river versus the species is what is really rewarding. So I'm not concerned about chasing warblers this season. I'm more just concerned about going down to the river and seeing what I see.

[A]

Yeah, totally. So are you mixing in any of the warblers or is it just. This is like. I'm focused on this and this is what I'm doing this season.

[B]

I mean, If I, if I stumble across some warblers, I'll. I'll go for it.

[A]

You're not going to pass on them?

[B]

No, of course not. But I also find like in California, it doesn't seem like our warblers. It doesn't seem like the east coast or like Canada.

[A]

Not, not even close.

[B]

And so it's like I get, I get a few, you know, the yellow rumped and Wilson's warblers are common yellow warblers. But beyond that, I don't see a lot of stuff. It's not black and white warblers occasionally, so.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

But yeah, I've gotten kind of tired of trying to chase them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And usually I'm not getting great photos, so I'm kind of pivoting to, you know, what, what is provided to me is what I'm chasing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Now.

[A]

Well, you know what, it's such an interesting take on, I think any genre of photography, but I would say especially wildlife photography because I think so many photographers get caught up in this idea of I'm not in an amazing place, so therefore I can't take incredible photos. And I think it's sort of a roadblock a lot of people. But I do believe truly that. And listen, I get it. I'm sitting here saying this as a person that gets to travel to all these amazing places all the time. Right. But I did, you know, my fair share of life in New Jersey and shooting in my quote unquote backyard. And I do truly believe you can take amazing photos anywhere if you just think uniquely and really dig in and learn either a subject or what you're doing a location. Would you agree with.

[B]

Totally, man. I, I have traveled extensively over the last couple years, but we have gotten back and settled down the last six months or so and I'm producing the best images of my, you know, photography career, quote, unquote. I think because I'm actually in a place for a long time, you know, I can go revisit these places over and over again.

[A]

Dial it in.

[B]

Yeah. And I'll go in the morning one time. I'll go in the evening sometimes. A lot of times I'm finding myself going in like mid afternoon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm actually, I enjoy shooting in that kind of light where I can just bump the shutter speed up and get these kind of more, you know, just super razor sharp action shots.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That I might not be able to get in lower light.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I'm just like, I like going, visiting one spot and really trying to just See it from every angle and every time of day. And I don't know, I feel like that's just been super rewarding. It's. It's slowed me down a little bit. I'm not panicking. Trying to run around and capture something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like a new, slower way of shooting, and I feel like it puts me in a better headspace.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Being a maniac, running around before the sunrise, looking for a subject shoot in the same place. Like, I kind of know where they're going to be.

[A]

Right. Exactly.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Well, and then also, isn't there less pressure when you're like, well, if it doesn't work out today, I can be out here tomorrow or the next day or the next day or whatever.

[B]

And I'm like 20, 20 minutes from my house. It's not like I wasted three hours and then I got nothing to show for it.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You go to a place you've never been, you're like, I got to get something. You get insane pressure on yourself because, like, I might never be here again. And totally. It can be crippling, man. It can really end. I really do think, even if you get the shots, I think it stifles creativity a ton, that mindset.

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

Yeah. It's not good. It's not good. But it's hard to prevent when you're in a place you've never been, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the excitement of it. And then also often when I'm in a new place, I'm looking for new species.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And so there's that pressure not only to, like, get the shot, but just find something new and cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I think. I think returning back from our travels, like, we traveled internationally a bunch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It gave me an appreciation for the stuff that's just local because there's someone in Singapore that's super excited to see, you know, a grackle.

[A]

Totally. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I think that's something that like, really kind of put it into perspective for me. I mean, with like snowy egrets, they're everywhere in California, but there are places where they don't really show up.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

It's not cool to me or it's not an exotic species, but to somebody across the country or somewhere else, it's a really cool looking bird.

[A]

Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. All right, so this is a great kind of thing. Definitely part of what I wanted to talk to you about because I got to see some of your incredible photography from your international travels, which congrats. On that. I mean, just some amazing stuff. And like you said, I agree. Continuing to do incredible stuff in your local area now, but what would you say kind of experiencing both as a wildlife photographer now, what was one of the sort of main highlights or benefits of the travel side of things, of always seeing something different? Is there anything that stands out to you that was, like, this was really part of the fun of that kind of wildlife photography?

[B]

I mean, for myself, I. On our travels, it was never specifically. We weren't out for wildlife.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

You know, we were just traveling. And so, yes, we did do a couple tours when we were kind of forced to.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But for me, I've always tried to do everything on my own. Like, I don't really go to lodges, I don't go to feeders, you know, all that kind of stuff. So it is interesting to see how different countries do their birding and eco tourism. And so, like, we started in Costa Rica, and I know you've experienced this, too, but it's like, that place is so hard to shoot if you're not at a feeder setup.

[A]

It's ridiculous.

[B]

And, yeah, like. But the shots I did get felt really earned and a little more meaningful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think that's something that has really, really opened my eyes in traveling. Like, oh, a lot of these shots I'm seeing are setups, and a lot of it's kind of, in my opinion, fake, you know.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And so I think it made me realize that, you know, I. How do I put this? I don't want to, like, crap on anybody, but, like, I just. I think it made me reconsider. Or when I. When I go on Instagram, it made me kind of open my eyes a little bit.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And kind of go, oh, I'm seeing a toucan on a perfect perch with, like, moss and flowers on it. And I now know that that is a setup.

[A]

It doesn't just happen.

[B]

It's like such a. It creates such unreal expectations.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. And that happens kind of all over the place, you know, not just abroad, but even, you know, in the United States. But, yeah, that's one thing I think. Just opened my eyes. And then there's just one thing or one place that really blew my mind, and I didn't see. I have not seen that much bird photography. Photography from this area is Patagonia in Chile. I think the birds down there are so unique and interesting and built to survive these, like, this really insane ecosystem.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

But usually everybody goes down to the shoot Pumas and, you know, that kind of thing. The bigger fauna is where I was like, just blown away by all the, all the birds. And there's not that many of them, but they're very, they're very interesting. And I would really like to go like, return down there and focus kind of solely on birds.

[A]

Oh, that's really cool, man. At some point, yeah, I think, you know, I really resonate with some of the stuff you said too. You know, I think realizing the longer I've done this, you know, I'm going into, I think we're in year four now of living full time on the road and always seeing new stuff. One of the things I realized is when you can lower that pressure and just sort of travel without wildlife photography as the main goal or highlight, it's kind of incredible. Especially if you're interested in birds. Like I'd say maybe if you're going more for mammals, you gotta plan and research a little bit more. But for birds, there's birds everywhere. And if you kind of just let it be and don't care about the species you see or don't have this expectation of a checklist and a shot list and all this stuff, it's a blast, man. And it's just creatively fun to just travel around and see what's new.

[B]

Totally. I'm like, yeah, I love that way of doing photography. It's so much more fun. I feel like I'm interested in so many different genres of photography at this point. And so I think getting interested in street photography and like photojournalism, documentary related stuff, it sort of, it sort of shifted my. The way I kind of approach my wildlife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I kind of look at it as more of like I'm just documenting an adventure I'm on or like an outing that I'm on. And I want it to be like a really personal kind of experience versus like, I want these to be like personal shots to me, not just, here's a wonder, like a, you know, quote unquote perfect shot of this species. I don't know if that makes sense completely, but absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I just, yeah, I've really tried to just chill out and realize that this is about like the art and not just about, you know, getting something perfectly in focus and nailing the shot so I can post it on Instagram.

[A]

Yeah, no, well, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Kyle, it seems like, you know, at least watching your evolution with wildlife photography and especially where you are now, it isn't so much about the bird, like the Bird still is the subject, but your approach to it isn't really about, oh, it's gotta be this bird, you know, just like you said, photographed perfectly, showing off all the detail. And, you know, the plumage has gotta be the pose. Got to be just right to show all the plumage and all that. That's kind of not what your photography is really about with birds and wildlife.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's been a shift, you know, when you first start, and I started, I think, what, three years ago, it was all about just getting as much reach and trying to get the thing, you know, frame filling and all the details. And that has slowly, you know, as per usual with most of the wildlife photographers I know, has changes over time.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And now. Yeah, it is more about the habitat and the kind of what's going on around the bird.

[A]

Yeah. But there's so much more. I want to say that there's so much more storytelling in your photography as of late, too. You know, especially. I mean, seriously, congrats on the urban stuff, you know, the stuff that you're doing around the LA river and in your area, and even what I've seen from when you were traveling, just that that human connection to these birds and wildlife that you're photographing has been incredible. And your. For composition amazes me all the time. I'm always impressed with it. And so I think that's a great segue into your interest in other genres. Did other genres of photography come before wildlife for you?

[B]

No, I started as a birder, like, and then I wanted to get ID shots and stuff, so I got a, you know, a decent camera and a long lens, and it's just, you know, spiraled out of control from there.

[A]

That's how it goes.

[B]

Yeah. And I think what happened to me is every time I would get stuck or felt stuck, and I'd kind of go, I don't want to do wildlife anymore. I would just switch to another genre and try something else, go walk away for a while. And I think that's informed so much what I do now when I return to wildlife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yeah, I just, it's. It's spiral out of control. And I just. I really appreciate photography as an art form, so learning as much as I can is important. I know you have like, a history in wedding and portrait photographer photography, and I'm sure that informs so much of, like, how you approach or shoot wildlife.

[A]

Absolutely. No, it totally did. And, you know, the interesting thing too is I think I want. I wonder if a lot of people sort of worry. Oh, if I start, you know, branching out and trying other genres of photography, I'm going to get worse at my. My favorite genre. Especially, you know, we're talking to all these bird and wildlife photographers. And so I think. Or I. Not that I think, I wonder if people worry about that, but I believe the reality is the complete opposite because it doesn't matter how different the genre of photography is, it all connects in some way. There's some piece of that thing. Like I worked for eight years as with an architect photographer in Philadelphia and I never shot for him. All I did was edit. Right. But I'll tell you one thing, my editing got really good, but also my eye for lines and like, you will never catch me with an unlevel thing ever after working from that guy. Because, you know, I mean, they would, they would nitpick everything if the line was off just a little bit, like a horizontal or vertical line. Forget it. Right. And so anyway, it dials you into these other things that just kind of start to connect and it dial. Even the architecture stuff, it dials in composition, leading lines, and even in interior space that you then apply to the wildlife that's out there. And it's, it's really, really, really always connecting in some way, shape or form and improves your wildlife photography. So just like you are doing, I think it's a great thing to explore other genres.

[B]

Well, and also our wildlife photography makes us so much better at other genres.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I feel like I walked into. So I've been shooting concerts and mostly metal shows.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Lately. And that stuff's really tricky lighting wise. You know, it's often backlit, it's super dark, so you're shooting a really, really low light. Sometimes I'm using telephoto lenses and I'm like, this is just like wildlife photography, but actually a lot easier because everything's on a stage, you know where it's going to be photographed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

So it's kind of interesting, like walking into different genres. Some of them have been like, oh, this is. I already do this. This is easy.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And that's been really, really fun. I actually just shot my first comedy shows last week and I'm like, this is the easiest thing I could choose to do. Like, it's one mic, one person standing on stage.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

The only thing that makes it really tricky is trying to find interesting compositions and not just shooting the same thing over and over.

[A]

I was just gonna say.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's gotta be something, though, that still presents a challenge to do it well, totally.

[B]

And my, and my fix to that, or I mean, it's just my first time, but what I found that I like to do already is just like, back up, back up, back up, back up. Like fine layers. Go outside to the, like shoot through the window.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And get the concert inside. Like all that kind of stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Which I think is what wildlife photography taught me, you know, And I think I've done the same thing with that. Instead of getting closer, it's like, how many layers can I put on this?

[A]

That's really interesting. Yeah, I like that way of thinking about it. You know, I don't know that I've ever really sort of put it into words that way of using layers. But definitely I totally see that being a big part of that sort of smaller in frame compositional puzzle.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that it's so fun with Atari because things keep kind of. You keep unlocking stuff slowly and as. The longer you go, the slower the unlocking happens.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

But that was a big shift for me where at first you're just trying to get the subject sharp and in focus, in frame. And then after that it started moving towards. Okay, now I'm looking at the background. I have the subject in the background and then it's like, oh, now I need to look at the foreground, the middle ground and the background. And it just, it keeps. So I keep widening, getting, you know, further back and wider. And I think that's, it's unlocked some creativity and some different, you know, compositions that weren't available to me when I was first starting.

[A]

Totally. And you know what? I don't know if you see it the same way, but for me, and it's so counterintuitive because it seems like for birds, being further away should make things easier inherently, you know, like, hey, you don't have to get as close, they're not going to be as scared, blah, blah, blah. But it's a nightmare for me. It's like you have so much more in the frame that matters now. And it actually become, it's. It's the opposite. It's way more difficult than just like a frame filling shot because. And listen, again, I'm not trying to belittle anybody that is, you know, all about the frame filler because there is certainly a skill to doing that and doing that well. But at least for my own personal preference, kind of, once you figure it out, there's a formula there and it's, it's pretty easy to do in a lot of places, you know, Some subjects might be more challenging than others based on their, you know, skittish behaviors and stuff like that. But the backing up thing, all of a sudden there's just all this stuff that I have to make work in a three second window before the bird flies away, you know, and I, dude, I love that challenge. I just love that challenge.

[B]

Yeah, I. One thing that I've been doing now is I like when I back up a little further is I've been trying to shoot at narrow apertures, so like stopping down to, you know, at least F8, but usually, like, sometimes now I'm shooting at F11, F16.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I. If I get the composition right, it's like I do want everything in focus in the background or like, more coherent to read. You know, that's been a, that's been kind of a fun advancement lately of, oh, I don't have to shoot wide open all the time.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's, you know, I had a mentorship student that was basically shooting nonstop on, I think, a 2x teleconverter on a 600 millimeter. So like a ton of focal length. Right. And so at one point I just said, all right, that's it. Like this next month, the teleconverter is off. You're not touching it. That photographer hasn't touched it again since that rules. They figured it out. But here's the thing that I think is good to do. What you just talked about is, you know, depth of field can be a crutch. Shallow depth of field can be a crutch of. I'm just going to blur out the background and hide whatever is back there and get rid of this distraction that way. So I think it's wonderful to try and shoot the way you're doing of. Let me just put everything in focus and really make this dialed in. But then not think to yourself, well, now this is the only way I can shoot. Right. But now once you've mastered that new skill, now you get to bounce back and forth and you have a better idea of, oh, when do I want shallow depth of field for a low look that I'm after? When do I not want that? And I hope the same for this photographer. And I told them that I'm like, listen, it's not that you should never use this teleconverter. It can be useful in certain circumstances, but you just don't want to use, I think, anything all the time. It's like, let's learn a particular skill and then understand when to Put it into play, you know?

[B]

Yeah, dude, I totally agree. And I think putting parameters on yourself is another way to learn faster and quicker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, putting away the 600 and going, I'm just gonna shoot with, you know, 50.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For three. Three months.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And I think I've heard you talk about this and other people, but it was really helpful to me of, like, don't even bring the 600. Don't even let it be an op. Don't even let it be an option, because most likely you're going to turn to that because it's going to be easier to get the bird.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Um, I think the shorter stuff just makes you work so much harder, but. And the hit rate is so much lower. But when you get it, it's. Those are usually my favorite images.

[A]

Absolutely. And that's the problem. Right. As soon as you have the other thing that you're already skilled at doing, it's so easy to fall back on that, you know, because you're, like, frustrated. You're like, this isn't working. But instead of trying to figure it out and working through that discomfort, that challenge, if you revert back to what you know, that's the loss there. Right. You're not gaining anywhere on that new skill. So force yourself. Learn that new skill. And, you know, listen, maybe you don't have to master it, but at least get decent at it. And then you have it as an option now, you know, and it doesn't mean, like, never pick that 600 up again, dude. I just spent, well, almost a month at the Great Salt lake. I shot my 402.8 almost exclusively out there. I haven't touched that lens in probably seven months. Barely. You know, it's been. It's just been sitting in my camera cabinet here, and I. It's not my go to lens, but all of a sudden out there, I tried it the one time, and I'm like, this is gorgeous. This is amazing. And so I just. I almost shot it exclusively out there, you know, but then there was a couple times where I was like, all right, I want to do something a little different. I'm going to bring this out, and blah, blah, blah. So I just. It's great to not get stuck on that one thing, I think.

[B]

Yeah, I. Variation is. Is the name of the game for me. I. Yeah, I try to do that. I noticed when. I mean, a couple years ago at this point, but I was looking at all my stuff, and I was like, all my stuff looks the same.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, there's no, there's no variety here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that was a kind of a wake up call when I was trying to put like a portfolio together. I'm like, I can't have everything shot between 400 and 600 at 5.6. Like, I can't. It looks. It's boring.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think that was the big motivator is like, I just don't want things to look the same all the time.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's for people like us. I don't think every photographer is like that because, listen, I certainly, I follow some photographers that, let me say dial in and they master one look and they are so good at it. And that's impressive too. It really is. But for myself, what you just said is the key word. The few times I've done that, I just get bored. I'm like, yeah, I've done this before and for me, I get over it. But I know, I also know some photographers that will go, I'm not exaggerating, to the same place, the same time of day, two to three times a week, shoot the same thing, and they're loving it. And you know what? If they're out having fun and getting good images, that's cool. Nothing wrong with that.

[B]

I mean, I did have a period of that recently where I went to the same spot over and over again and there was just nothing there but a couple willets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I shot the same willets for a month straight, kind of with the same focal length.

[A]

So. Yeah, you shot the willits with the same focal length for that long. But let me ask you this. Did you try to shoot them differently though? Even though you were shooting the same lens or same focal length?

[B]

I think I recently, funny enough, talking about, you know, getting wider and backing away, I've also kind of revisited getting the best portraits that I can. Yeah, I think I have, like, you know, having done this for a while, I. My, my settings are way more dialed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I know my camera better. And so what I found myself doing is really trying to nail down kind of a. The best pose I could get. Shooting at fast shutter speeds and really trying to get everything as tack sharp as possible.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

I sort of. I've become a little obsessed with that recently.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because what I have, what I've noticed, and again, I feel like I'm just going to crap on people, but I don't mean to, is that I've noticed like a lot of photographers that I, when I first started that I loved, I've. I started looking at their websites, and I realized a lot of their photos are out of focus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or like, they've. They're missing the eye.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And. And, like, you can absolutely get away with that on Instagram.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

But when I visit their website, I'm like, oh, these aren't. Half of these are out of focus. Yeah. So. And I. In putting together my own website, I was like, I want to make sure that I don't have that issue on my website.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So trying to get in. Get everything crisp and, you know, not cropping into death is. Is something that I feel like I'm really motivated and really, really trying to do well, because I. It's like, I really want to be somebody that can print stuff at large scale.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And that sort of thing. And so it's become more important to me recently. So I think I've kind of gone back and I'm like, I need to get portraits of all these things again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the first time. Because the first time around, I was shooting on not as good gear and just. I wasn't. I didn't know what I was doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything, like, everything was soft and like. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, the be. I look back, I'm like, oh, the beak's in focus, but the eyes are out of focus. Trying to kind of redo some of that stuff. It's been kind of a fun project because the Willett. I will say the Willett has always been my bird.

[A]

Yeah, they're fun.

[B]

And so it's like, they're really fun, and they're just. They're everywhere here in California. It's like the only reliable bird along the shoreline.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But also, I would think your skills just, like, not even the technical side of it, but, you know, your eye for lighting and background and foreground have all improved as well, so it's great to be able to revisit that kind of stuff, you know? Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. It would be fun at some point to kind of do a compare and contrast and post it on Instagram or something too. Just.

[A]

Yeah, just my favorite old portrait. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, man. Yeah, it is. It is real fun to look back at old work. Is that something you do often or rarely?

[B]

I usually hate everything I shot from weeks ago.

[A]

Okay. So it's kind of like. It's a short window. I got it.

[B]

It's a real window. But occasionally I do. I do look back, and every once in a while I'll go, oh, I didn't edit this photo before. I'm glad I didn't delete it, because I actually like it now. And that actually, that has actually come with learning how to edit better.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Sometimes I just didn't know how to edit something properly. And there are some stuff from, like our, Our, our travels that I've looked back on. I'm like, oh, I actually have a good shot of this.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Yeah. No, I could see that. I could see that. Yeah. You know, but going back to shooting kind of the same thing at the same spot, though, I do think there's still, sometimes there's even a project to be had with that, you know, again, I'll just reference what I just did, you know, 21 days, shooting every single evening and morning at the Great Salt Lake, generally going out to the same general spots. Right. Different lighting, different weather, the birds move differently, they come in closer, one day, they move out further. Some days they're spread out, some days they're in tighter. Even shooting the same lens. Right. There's just still so much that you can do. And again, talking about working and this is what I wanted to kind of get back into, working your local area. If you can open your eye and your mind to the possibility of other things and not shoot the same thing, even if you're going to the same place, boy, does it open up diversity and your ability to experiment.

[B]

Yeah. And like you said earlier, it's like once the pressure's off, that that's when you're free to just be a weirdo. Crazy things.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, man. Yeah. And so I asked you earlier what was one of the highlights of travel? And so I think you've kind of talked about it already, but I'd love to hear it again. What are some of the highlights of working your local LA area now?

[B]

More of. So I'm a native Californian. I've lived in California my whole life.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm from Northern California, originally from Santa Cruz, but I lived in the bay area for 12 years and I've lived in Orange county for a little bit, and now I'm living in la. And I love California. Like, I'm a ride or die, you know, when we got. Yeah, when we got back from our trip, I was thinking we were talking about moving to Texas, we were talking about, you know, staying abroad. And when we got back to California and we were there for a couple of weeks, really, like, dang it, I still love California. Like, I don't want to leave as much as there's reasons that I should want to leave. It's ridiculously expensive and et cetera. Et cetera, et cetera. I love this area and I feel like I know the area pretty well, and so I feel like, compelled to kind of document what's going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think California is, like, a really interesting place right now in particular, because I was just looking this up or just checking my facts or my. My data here, but it's like 97% of California wetlands are gone.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's the most. It's the most habitat loss of any state, or for wetlands at least.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so kind of I'm like, I gotta. I want to capture this stuff before it's gone. I mean, hopefully there'll be some recovery and some conservation, though. You know, we can work on bringing some stuff back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But right now it's pretty bleak. And, you know, shorebird populations are down 50% since, like, the 1970s. Overall, I mean, it's. It's a pretty brutal number.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think working in California, but specifically la, is really fascinating and sad at times because, I mean, LA is also just. It doesn't have parks like you would think a huge city would have some really. Well, like, really great parks, really great habitats. And there's just nothing. I mean, there's Griffith Observatory and, like, that area over there, but there's no Golden Gate Park. There's no Central Park.

[A]

No, you're right.

[B]

And it's. It's a bummer. So I think, trying. I kind of, in my head, just, like, I want to document this stuff because I kind of want to bring some awareness to it.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And also, I just. Beyond la, I love California and I want to, like, be somebody that documents the state.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

I actually just. I'm actually finally, I bit the bullet and I'm taking a class to become a California naturalist. So. Yeah, that's also something that's.

[A]

Oh, that's pretty cool. So what's involved with that?

[B]

It's, you know, learning the flora and fauna.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm going to be doing some field work. I'm based in Bolsa Chica, which is down in Huntington beach, which is a wetlands preserve that's quite famous. And so I'm just. I just want to know more. You know, I think I have a pretty good understanding of birds, but beyond that, I have very little knowledge of, like, local native plants.

[A]

I'm the same way.

[B]

Yeah. Like, it doesn't interest me that much, but I want it to.

[A]

And it ties into the birds so well.

[B]

Totally. And I love, like. I know Scott Keys is like a big shooting, you know, birds on Native plants.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

And I've kind of. I really like that. Yeah. So doing, doing that, I think it'll just, it'll make me a better photographer, but it'll also make me a better like, steward kind of of, you know, just the world that we inhabit.

[A]

Absolutely, man.

[B]

And I think just in the same way of, you know, as you go along birding or doing wildlife photography, you learn the rules, the ethics behind it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think there's more for me to learn about the ethics of just kind of how I interact with the land in general beyond just doing wildlife photography.

[A]

That totally makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. So it's been really fun and I just. So it's a long winded way to answer your question, but yeah, I love being local because I love California.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's really cool. You know what's another interesting stat? So we spent, at least, I should say I spent more time in California this past winter than I ever have in the past. And driving around that state, both Emily and I started noticing. We're like, there's a lot of empty space here. So we looked it up and it's like, what, what kind of, what percentage of land does the majority of the population of California live in? I want to say it was something like 6 or 9%. It was some ridiculously low number of crazy. Most of the population lives in that small of a percentage of the land of California, which makes sense because you go into some of those cities like la, I'm like, dude, this is not for me, man. It is so busy. Yeah. But the rest of the state, I mean, there's just so much incredible diversity, number one, and just the looks of it and everything is really beautiful and incredible. And the other thing, I really appreciate what you've been doing. And I got to play with it a little bit once this past winter in la, which is the urban stuff. I mean, is it not so much fun?

[B]

It's so fun. I like, once when I saw you doing that, I was like, dang it, I gotta get down to dtla.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've never shot, I've never shot in downtown LA for wildlife. So you really, you stuck it to me there. I was like, I gotta, I gotta do that, dude.

[A]

I had a blast, man. And you know what? The other thing. And you've been really showing it. Right. I did get to see a handful of species. I just, I literally did one morning. Right. And certainly something I want to try again the next time we're visiting her. Emily has family who lives in la. Definitely got to hook up with you the next time we're in town, for sure. But what you've been doing is showing how a nice diverse variety of species are so resilient, man. How they survive in these places and where they make. Make their livings, you know, like the birds figure it out. It's incredible, dude.

[B]

It's nuts. There's like. I didn't get any good pictures, but on one portion of the LA river there is. There was just a flock of. I don't know if it's a flock is the correct term, but a bunch of black skimmers.

[A]

Oh yeah. Wow.

[B]

Cruising up and down the la. Yeah, cruising up and down the LA river and so I can't wait to get photos of those eventually. But it was just like. Yeah, I was not expecting to see that.

[A]

Well, and then you're showing like avocets and the night heron stuff and all of these things where I'm just like, really? Like, that's such. It's incredible.

[B]

The best luck photographing black neck stilts in the LA river than anywhere else in California. So abundant. They're all over the river.

[A]

No kidding. I had no idea.

[B]

One of the most beautiful birds. What are you doing here? You're just in a trash heap.

[A]

Yeah, but dude, what a story it tells, man. I mean those photos, I gotta say, you know, listen, I've seen so many countless beautiful, stunning natural photos of black neck stilts. And I mean, like you said, it's a beautiful bird. So in a way, because of social media, they're a dime a dozen. You know, you see a great shot, fill in the frame, beautiful front light, you know, or backlit with those legs glowing. It's like, yeah, that's, it's a cool shot. I've seen it so times. And then I see what you share, I'm like, I've never seen that before. And man, that's a cool thing. And that's a hard thing to do these days.

[B]

I take that as like the highest compliment because that's like the one thing I kind of care about at this point. It's just like I gotta be different.

[A]

I gotta.

[B]

You have to find some angle and everybody is so good. Yeah, it's so hard to separate yourself at all. You know, everything's huge. Bokeh balls, backlit, like just incredible stuff. And I think sometimes I just, I kind of gave up on that. I'm like, I'm just gonna shoot in the mid afternoon, but I'll go somewhere that's weird. And I think that's It's. I think that's where I'm at. I'm like, at least someone can look at my stuff. I hope my goal is someone can look at my stuff and be like, oh, that's Kyle. That would be. That would be my dream.

[A]

Absolutely, man. No, I think you're there, man. Definitely. At least you are for me. And you're there with the uniqueness, which is, you know, again. Right. This is just our preference for what we like to do with this genre of photography. There's a million different ways to approach bird photography, none of them better or worse than the others, but just hearing you say it, it's a. It's a huge priority for me. And all of my approach to bird photography and wildlife photography is I want to try and capture something I've never seen done before, you know, and that's fricking hard, man. There's so much out there. And as soon as one person that has a decent following does cool, immediately a ton of other people are trying to emulate it and do it, which is flattering. Yeah. But then it's like, okay, the fifth time I've seen this again, I'm like, it just doesn't do it anymore for me, you know?

[B]

I can't believe that I'm tired of seeing Pumas in Patagonia.

[A]

Dude, seriously, like, legit. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It's. It's nuts. It's like everything is so blown out. Or can. That has the potential to get blown out.

[A]

It really does. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But I mean, that's like. I really appreciate watching you continue to just work it, you know, it's like getting that split level stuff that you got in Florida with, like, the cormorants.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, he just keeps doing it, dude.

[A]

I just did it with the dipper.

[B]

I know you did. I was watching. You were, like, teasing it on a video.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, I know exactly what he did. And I. I'm.

[A]

Yeah, I just talked about it. We just recorded that episode the other day, so it'll be out in a couple days. Yeah.

[B]

Cannot wait to see him.

[A]

It is not, like, exactly what I want, but it's. It's there, you know? Like, it's. It's possible. It'll do.

[B]

What do we call it? Proof of concept.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. Proof of concept. And shareable, you know? Like, it's. It's to that level. Because here's the other thing, you know, and I did. I'm glad we were talking about this because, you know, you mentioned you're trying to do something different, unique. But man, it's so hard to figure out when you start playing with something different and unique. And I'd love to hear your take on this because of where you're really pushing with this urban stuff, to understand when it's good and when it's just different and not good, you know, because different isn't always good. And the first time, at least for me, the first time I do something different, unique, I'm like, this is amazing. And then honestly, just like you said, right. Two weeks later, I'll look at it and go, eh, it wasn't really that great. It was just. I was pumped because it's. I never did it before. And so do you go through that process as well?

[B]

I mean, I've started sitting on stuff longer. I used to kind of shoot, edit, post, not think about it. And I think that was great for me to start because I was so insecure about posting stuff in the beginning. Gotcha. So I think it just got me in the habit of just. Just do it. Just put it out, put it out, put it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now I sit on stuff a little bit longer, usually at least a week, because often I'll come back after the excitement's died down. I go, this isn't really that cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's been a little outlook change.

[A]

Yeah, No, I think that's a good move for sure. I've done the same thing just out of necessity, just because of how much I shoot and how much I want to post. So therefore, I schedule everything. And that means I sit down and look at stuff a good while after and kind of pick out what I want to do and share. Do you plan out what you're sharing that far in advance or at all? Or is it just, hey, I feel like sharing something today. How is your approach to that?

[B]

I kind of just let the heart lead.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't have. I like that I'm not backlogged that far anymore.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

So I'm kind of just shooting and waiting a week and putting stuff, whatever I shot out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I kind of just. I try to mix it up a little bit. But yeah, most of the time it's just sort of what I feel like. And again, I think I get in my head a lot about it and I'm, you know, I'm constantly thinking, you know, how is this going to be received? Or I'm going to be judged for it, Is it good enough, all that kind of stuff. So I always am constantly trying to Just put that noise away and just go post it, post it, post it, post it. And what happens often is like, the stuff I don't really like usually be the stuff that gets the most likes. I've had that happen so many times. I'm like, well, this is a throwaway. This sucks. I just posted these night herons in Vietnam from a couple years ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I shot it on this, like, while I was just out on a. A random walk. It was with, like, a really crummy lens. And I just. I posted it because I'm like, well, I need something. I'm out. I'll post it. And I'm like, it's far and away the most popular post I've had in months.

[A]

That's so freaking, like.

[B]

Of course, of course.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but listen, dude, like, so you know, all of them, but particularly I'm looking at the photos right now, and I'll make. I'll make sure to drop a link in the show notes for anybody that's curious. The second one with your use of, you know, an urban element for composition is unbelievably creative. Like that. Listen, how many people. What was it? Was it like a railing or what was that that you shot?

[B]

Yeah, like a fence railing. It's like some urban. Little urban lake.

[A]

But so how many photographers, bird photographers, walk up to that scene and go, oh, this thing is in my way. How do I shoot over around it or whatever? And you think, how do I incorporate this? Like, that's a very different mental approach to this style of photography. It really is.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. Thanks.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, compliment. Pat yourself on the back, dude. Like, there's a reason I think that those photos get recognition is what I'm getting at, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think that's one of those ones when I was looking at, I was like, well, it's different, but is it good? It was one of those things.

[A]

The answer is yes. Yes. The answer is yes. So in the coming months, what do you plan on working on? What do you see yourself kind of chasing down, trying to keep photographing? Is it more of the same stuff you've been working on recently?

[B]

We'll see. I mean, summer's a little quiet around here. I think it's quiet around most places. So I might actually be shifting. I have a bunch of concert photography set up, and I'm kind of like, maybe I shift for the summer and just do more concert stuff. Yeah, I will definitely be making my way down to the LA River a bunch, though. I Think that's also going to be. I'm not. You know, this project has kind of just started in the last couple of months, kind of. Seriously?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think there's a lot more to do, a lot more scouting. You know, I have a few locations I've found that I haven't really had any good luck with subjects yet. So it's just going to keep poking around the LA River.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's really cool. Hey, let me ask you this. You know, so you mentioned it pretty early on about just, you know, going down like mid afternoon when the light's strong and you're not really worried about that. I keep thinking I want to go back to downtown LA to shoot again when it's a full Sunday. The day I went was completely overcast. I really think there's so much potential to play with light and shadow in these urban environments and just like, who gives a crap about the quality of light on the subject? It's all about like, where can I throw these shadows, how can I use it for shapes and stuff like that? Is that also what you're thinking about as well?

[B]

Well, for sure. I like shooting in strong light like that sometimes because I really like the really high contrast stuff.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And I think, yeah, it's funny because as wildlife photographers, you're like, I have to be up for sunrise and so I have to be up before the sun rises, you know, and stay after the sun sets. But when you're in midtown, you know, when you're in downtown, the light's actually probably the best when it's pretty strong at like 4:35, you know, something a couple hours before the sun's close to setting. If you want that kind of dramatic contrasty street light, which I also think of like street photography is definitely influenced how I look at that.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So yeah, I would love to get some of that going in la.

[A]

Well, and the other thing is to think about too, I think light can bounce off of surfaces into the shadow. So you can actually get some beautiful soft light that's just filtering in off of a window from a building two blocks down. And the angle hits just right and it's like, man, there's. Dude, I could spend. I could see myself spending a full month just shooting that kind of stuff and having so much fun.

[B]

Yeah, you could be doing reflections off windows. Right. You know, bus. Bus windows and like all kinds of stuff.

[A]

And to incorporate that into birds. It's not what everybody. I mean, street is a popular genre, but getting birds and wildlife mixed in that Is not yet popular. We will make it that way. Yeah.

[B]

I think a big change for me has when I'm going like, oh, I'm gonna shoot urban. It's been fun to go. Oh, I shouldn't try to crop this stuff out. I should include all of it. Where it's like, I should have a building or a bus or people walking in the background. Like all those things that we're kind of taught to get rid of. I'm like, maybe I just want more of this. So, yeah. I also have one more little project that I'm thinking about. I don't know how it'll work. I'm a little scared to do it, honestly. But there is breaking news. Yeah. There are a bunch of night herons that live in downtown Oakland.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And they're. And they also have a bunch in. On skid row in la.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And there is some project at some point where I'm like, yeah, documenting night herons living on skid row would be crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's where I'm a little nervous, like, doing the urban stuff sometimes too. I'm like, eh, I got a lot of gear here. Sure. I'm a little nervous someone might knock me off.

[A]

Totally get it. Yeah.

[B]

I feel like I'm probably one of the only guys that carries pepper spray fairly often to go take pictures of birds.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, I could totally see that with some of the places you're going. I felt pretty safe in downtown la. There was enough people walking around. But that being said, even when I did it, it was like. There was a couple times I was getting like, yelled at, you know, by people and it was just like, just ignore it. Just move along. And I did. I went in. I'm curious, what kit are you normally taking out with you when you're doing that kind of photography? Like, what's your. Do you have a go to setup that you take with you?

[B]

I take. I take my two two to 600. And I take usually like, I have the 28. I just got the 28 to 70.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So I usually kind of do. I'll take the big one and then I'll take one other. I have the 70 to 200 too, so it'll be. Two of those. Three lenses are usually going with me.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So that's like a. That's a recognizable lens. Like, it gets attention. I went in with the Nikon's 28 to 400. It's super tiny. It looks very unassuming. You know, it looks like I'm Just like a tourist walking down the street. So not too big a deal. So it was easier to kind of like fade away with that versus like a 2 to 600 is, you know, that's getting attention in a city.

[B]

Yeah. And I shoot on Sony, so it's

[A]

bright white, you know. Exactly. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. But I think, you know, the other thing that can work in this scenario. It's so funny. I mean, you know, you talked earlier about trying to improve these portraits and you have like better gear now and stuff like that. Have you had a period yet, Kyle, where you're like sort of reverting back on lenses quality wise as well? Because that's certainly something I've done. You know, it's like I've worked my way to the pinnacle of the lenses. You know, I was talking earlier about shooting a 402.8. It's like the best you can get pretty much for wildlife. And yet I'm. I'm more happy lately shooting this 28 to 400, which is like such an entry level, just extreme zoom thing. And listen, sharp enough. Absolutely. But it's not the pinnacle of quality. Yeah. But it's fine.

[B]

I haven't found myself reverting yet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I've never had. I've never had a big prime, so I've never shot anything. I don't know what an F4 looks like. You know, I don't. I've never shot that. That. So I haven't. I haven't really reverted. So don't shoot a bunch.

[A]

That'll make it easier. You won't know what you're missing.

[B]

I don't really have much of a desire because I don't want to carry the weight. I just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I like being mobile and so it's. I'll take. Okay. I can't go to F4. That's all right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm shooting stuff that I want to have more texture anyway most of the time, so it doesn't really bother me. Yeah. And I can't, you know, I can't miss what I've never had, so.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But I did shoot a lot of our. On our travels. I had a Tamron 28 to 200 and I shot a ton of stuff on that.

[A]

See that?

[B]

I'm like, it's not a great lens, but it did fine. And I love having that range of focal, you know, having that much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Variation is. It was kind of amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're out on a hike today. I think I was talking to you a Little bit about it before we started recording. Emily and I did like a 10 mile hike up in the Tetons this morning and I took the same thing. The Z6 III, the light super lightweight camera body with this 28 to 400. And even at the end of the hike, we were out for right around four hours. I mean, I barely notice it on like the strap on my neck, you know what I mean? It just, it's, it's such a joy to go out with something so light. And then like I shot some landscapes with it because the light was stunning when we first got out there. And then we encountered some moose and then I was on some pika and I got like portrait, like 400 millimeter portraits of pica that look great from all from the same lens. All one thing. Just brought it with me. Didn't have to bring multiple stuff, you know, it's just the best. I love it. I love the convenience.

[B]

Yeah, I'll take, I'll take mobility over sharpness.

[A]

Yeah, no, I totally agree, man. I totally agree. Or at least you know what I'll say. I think with the modern stuff, I don't even really feel like there's much of a compromise with sharpness. It's just a compromise of aperture, you know, and. Yeah, and then it's also good with stability. As long as you're not, not shooting action, you can just drop that shutter speed to next to nothing and get sharp photos.

[B]

Yeah, that's, that's one thing I noticed. So I just got the 70 to 202.8.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And I mean shooting in low light with that is just incredible. Yeah, that. But I've. What I really noticed is that the stability, the image stability.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is so much better than what I have on the 2 to 600.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

Kind of interesting wake up call for.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I guess that makes a little sense. Right? With a shorter focal length, that helps as well. But yeah, having that stuff paired in, I mean, it's, it's kind of wild when you're just hand holding it, you know, 20th of a second and 10th of a second sometimes and making images work as long as your subject doesn't move, you know? Yeah, yeah. For the night heron thing, is that something you think, Would that be daytime shooting, nighttime shooting? A little mix of both. What do you anticipate or like envision with that?

[B]

In a perfect world, I'd be shooting it like midnight. Yeah, I would love to do it super late.

[A]

In a safe world, I mean, I'd

[B]

be shooting maybe I Just like, shoot for my car.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although I wonder, with that kind of stuff, like, do you think you could get away with like super early morning instead? Because I feel like that's when a lot of sort of like the city life dies down a little bit. Like that 3, 4am kind of thing.

[B]

All the tweakers are asleep.

[A]

Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. It's funny, you're not worried about, like dangerous wildlife. You're. I mean, in a way, I guess you are.

[B]

I mean, I think if I did those projects, if I was doing skid row, I'd probably just go down and try to kind of make connections.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Some people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's the way to do it. I mean, with street photography, that's always kind of the way I see it. It's like you don't want to just go down there and start snapping. Yeah. You know, you got to be respectful.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I would, you know, I'm not going to be shooting homeless people and stuff. It's not my jam. But getting that urban environment and I think just calling attention to kind of just again, I love that play between wildlife and urban environments. Kind of like how they exist in our cities and. Yeah. Seeing that there's a. There's an account. That's how I found it. There's an account called like Black Herons of Skid Row.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And it's some guy. I think he just takes iPhone photos of them. But it's cool.

[A]

That is really cool, man. Yeah. And you know what the other thing is, I think, and I've seen it in your photography, is that it puts a highlight on behaviors you don't see all the time in the natural world, like when they're out in nature. Right. Behavior changes. It has to. It has to adapt. And that's such a cool thing to document and share.

[B]

Yeah. I got this one photo. I haven't shared it again. I don't think it's that great, but it is interesting. Of a night heron in Oakland. And I got him mid year, know, eating something like when you. When they flip it up and it's like in between their mouth or whatever. Usually crawdads and stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is just like, I. I think it was a slim gym.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. I love that kind of stuff.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely, man. Yeah. No, that's really cool. How long have you been doing the street photography and incorporating that into just your. Your. Not into the wildlife, but just into your repertoire of photography?

[B]

It was probably halfway through our trip, like our international trip. Yeah, I really got into it when we were in Southeast Asia, probably. So it's been a little over a year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think since I kind of got into it. And it's one of those things, like, when I first started looking into street photography, I didn't see it. I didn't get it. It for a long time because a lot of the stuff just looked like crummy snapshots and. And there is a lot of bad street photography, don't get me wrong.

[A]

But there's a lot of bad every photography.

[B]

Yeah. But the guys that are killing it, it's like, it's a really, you know, finding the decisive moment, as they call it. And that sort of thing is really, really cool. And actually, again, has a lot of correlations to wildlife of us sitting and waiting for that moment, you know. So, yeah, I got into it about a little over a year ago, probably.

[A]

Nice, man. Yeah. And I mean, I can tell it. It really informs your compositional style, especially even in fully natural areas. You know, I just. I really see, like, just what we were talking about, that. The night heron photos that you shared recently by using that railing and stuff like that, you know, that's one. But then also even some of the stuff that you've shared just using, you know, natural branches and. And shapes of things that you're finding out in nature for compositional elements, for framing elements. And I guess that really ties into that layering thing you're talking about, right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's funny how you just keep progressing through things and. Yeah, I was obsessed with layering or have become a lot more obsessed with layering. And I think depth and contrast has been a big thing for me lately. I feel like that's been something in my editing I've been working on because I feel like a lot of my images still look flat at times. Times.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So getting that depth, but then also figuring out the contrast level, that's been. That's been my new obsession and frustration.

[A]

Yeah, no doubt. Is storytelling a big part of it? Or does that. Do you think, just. Is that sort of a byproduct of the way you're shooting lately?

[B]

I like the idea of storytelling. I don't exactly know if I know what the term means at this point sometimes, but I do, definitely. I like putting together sets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if I can kind of, like, take some landscape photos, take some, like, environmental portraits, and like, kind of have this set of 10 images that I can kind of put together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's kind of where I'm. I'M headed. So I guess, yeah, storytelling is something I'm trying to do.

[A]

Well, you know, like, I'm looking at this one photo now that you posted not too long ago and it's the, you titled it, you know, ongoing Colorado Desert series. Right. And it's just like, it's, it's just a bunch of like rundown stuff. But then like the first photo, and this is what I'm getting at with the storytelling is this bird on this dead snag and these, you know, really cool desert mountains in the background, the harsh desert light, which is what you see, you know, pretty much all the time in the desert. So it's about a 10 minute window of nice light there, but you included like the corner of this building, building in there. And that to me is so much like that is the storytelling element of that because you step to the right three feet, that's out of there. And as far as we know, we see like, here's this cool bird on a snag in the desert done. Right. You add that building in there. I mean, it adds so much more sense of mystery of what's the rest of that there? What else? Like, wow, it's right next to the edge of the some city. Or is it just a single rundown building? Like, all these questions come into play and there's an interesting story that's behind that photo now by the fact that you left that in there. And that's exactly what I'm saying. Like, I see so much storytelling in your photography with that kind of thinking.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, thanks. I think that has been the change too of what I was saying earlier of like, I'm trying to add as much into a photo as I can without being completely distracting.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But if I can provide context or background up, I'm going to try to do that as long as, again, as long as it's pleasing and not totally, totally for no reason.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's the thing like we were talking about earlier that I think it takes time, you know, it's great to have the idea in your head of, oh, I'm going to approach it this way. But when you really start trying to put it into practice, so much of it in the beginning is, you know, either not good or mediocre until you refine that craft and then start to realize, okay, now this is how I can actually make this work.

[B]

Yeah, 100%.

[A]

Yeah. And it takes a lot of time, but that's part of the fun, you know, it's just, it can Be frustrating in the beginning where you're like, I, I know what I want to do here, but it's not quite there, you

[B]

know, it also sucks. It's like, I remember when I first started, you always hear the, the refrain of it's time in the field. It's time in the field.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And dang it, it's right. It's just like you just have to do it. You just have to be out all the time.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And eventually stuff starts to kind of click into focus.

[A]

Do you have a. An awareness of a balance between looking at other photography, studying other photography for inspiration, versus putting that time in the field in for yourself?

[B]

Well, if I'm understanding the question, I think time in the field trumps everything.

[A]

I agree. Yeah.

[B]

I wish that wasn't true, but I think it is. But I probably spend. I'm more at this point just when I have a question, I will spend a good amount of time trying to figure out the answer.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of it for me is now based around editing, so I'm usually a lot of time is spent trying to figure out certain editing techniques.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nice. Trying to improve that.

[A]

No, that's really cool. No, I just think, like, the question I ask is, because I agree with you, the time in the field thing is so important. And I think some people can get stuck on always seeking out like the inspiration and looking to other things to inspire them and get them to do it instead of just going out and doing, you know, And I think you can, like, some people can just get caught up in that, you know, Whereas it might be the better thing to just ignore all that stuff for at least for a time period and just go, do, you know, just go play, experiment and see what happens.

[B]

Totally. You know, I think it's. Yeah. When you're first starting, I think it's so great to look at other people's stuff and learn the basics and figure it out and you can start picking out people you enjoy. I mean, I think I was attracted to your stuff really early on because you were doing something different, the small in frame stuff, all that. But after a while, I think you start just mimicking and you start, you know, I'm just going out and chasing the same shot that somebody else got. So that was actually a big thing for me. It's like I had to actively go, I can't look at this stuff anymore. I need to go figure out my own style.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that, that was again, like a little, A little point of an inflection point where it's like, okay, I can do this. And I don't need to, like, look at everybody else's stuff to make sure it's good enough or make sure it fits into some mold that's going to be received well. Yeah. And I think the longer I've been doing it, the more I've leaned into, like, trusting that instinct, which, again, I think is time in the field of, like, I have this style or I have this thing that I think is my style, and I'm going to keep trying to push that well.

[A]

And I think it comes with confidence in both your technical skill, you know, so that's. That's a thing that develops differently for everybody. Everybody's got a different timeline for that. You know, some people just pick it up very quickly and other people's like myself took forever. I mean, it took the funniest story I love sharing, Kyle, is, you know, Emily. Like, I look at some of her work, like one or two years in. Right. And it's just incredible stuff. And yours is the same way. Like, would you say you've been doing for three years?

[B]

Yeah, a little over three, I think.

[A]

Yeah. Right. So incredible stuff in that span of time. I show her some photo every once in a while we dig back into my catalog and I'll pull up a photo and we. And she'll look at. She's like, damn, that's horrible. I'm like, yeah, that was me 10 years in. That was a decade of me working this out. And it's garbage. You know, like, I look back and it's just bad. And so anyway, I say that as inspiring to anybody who's taking a while to get good at this. It can happen. You just got to stick with it now. But everybody's got their own timeline there. But once you do get that confidence of all right, I know how to take a well exposed, sharp photo and play with composition a little bit. I think then you're absolutely right. You know, like, looking at too much stuff online can be kind of consuming and turn it into that just mimicry or chasing. Oh, I want to get this. I want to get that. Versus if you can tune out from that a little bit and then just start going and playing and experimenting yourself. That's great. And. And then, you know, piece in some inspiration here and there, especially from other genres. That's like such a huge thing. I. At least for me, and it sounds like for you, I find that to be a much better approach.

[B]

Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I Think I don't want to. I also just don't want to be in competition with anybody.

[A]

Yeah, good point.

[B]

Some of that, too, where I was getting competitive.

[A]

It's hard not to, man.

[B]

I'm a very competitive person, and so it's like. Like, oh, this is kind of not a good headspace for me to be in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's why I've recently tried to hook up with more photographers in my area to go shoot with, because it, you know, to be being a wildlife photographer, it's a pretty lonely existence.

[A]

It's a solo sport a lot of the times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I do want to. I think now I'm moving away from looking at other people's work online and kind of like, I want to see what you do in the field. Like, I want to be out shooting with you.

[A]

It's different.

[B]

I love watch. I love watching people shooting. Shoot something. Yeah. And I love shooting the same thing. And then looking at somebody's photos and going like, oh, yeah, you did something that I didn't see at all.

[A]

Yep. Yeah.

[B]

So I'm really. I'm starting to enjoy that a lot and trying to seek that out more.

[A]

What a learning tool that is. Is it not standing side by side with somebody and seeing them photograph it and capture it in a completely different way than you? Even that even crossed your mind. And. And, man, the times that's happened to me, which has been a lot of times, it sticks in my head so well that it might as well have been something I captured that I get to use again in the future. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's been really helpful for me, especially with fieldcraft, because I feel like I'm okay at certain things. Like, I'm pretty good with shorebirds and things like that, but I'm horrible with songbirds. Like, I don't know how to approach them. I don't know how to find them. I'm bad at it. So I went out with a guy recently who's quite good at it, and just watching him, like, oh, well, here's this warbler. And here's this warbler. I'm like, are you kidding me? Yeah. But now I've taken that and basically stolen his approach.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's. This is how to learn. My point is, like, such a better way to learn than just, again, watching stuff online. And again, I'm not trying to crap on that. There's. There's something to be gained for that right there. There's. There's definitely convenience and Knowledge of learning from people that you'd otherwise never get to cross paths with. But I think taking the steps of what you did. I. We had a little chat about it on Instagram. When you were doing this, you announced recently you were trying to put together, like, a meetup of photographers. And I forget. Did the first one happen already?

[B]

Yeah, we went to the desert.

[A]

Yeah. How did that go?

[B]

It was good, man. I got a few people. I mean, we only had. I think we had three. Three? Yeah, I think we had three. It was super fun because we had. I had a couple that I had shot with before, but they're not wildlife photographers.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They're kind of like. I don't know, they like desert oddities. And. Yeah, we did a. I met them on another meetup that I did with a bunch of Leica photographers.

[A]

Oh, totally.

[B]

Different breed of photographers, no doubt.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so they came out and shot with us. And, you know, know, I. I did a few things without them because they're not really into the wildlife stuff. But then I had another guy come out. The vagabond birder, Michael.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He floats around on Instagram. Yeah. He's a Van Life guy as well.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

But I followed him for years, and so he came out and we had a ball. I mean, it was so fun.

[A]

That's so cool, man.

[B]

And he was the guy that I picked up, all like, just some of the field craft and just the way he. He just knows the area better than I do, so great to chill and hang. And that's what I like, too. I like grabbing a beer and just talking about photography. Yeah. It's like, I don't even have to shoot with you. I would rather just kind of like, get to know you. Get to know your ethics, get to know your, like, your ideas and your vision and what you like about nature, man. That's like. Yeah, I think. I don't know, man. I'm just, like, really seeking community in person these days.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Pretty done with the online stuff. It's like, I want to meet face to face and have some sort of real friendship. So I'm trying to foster that where I can.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's really good. And I. You know, it takes somebody to. To put the effort in and take that step and do it, you know, it's something Emily has, you know, put a lot of effort in as well in the past few years because of how we live, you know, like, we don't get to. To connect with people all that well in person. Just because we're, we're only in a place for like a week or two, you know, but then you just gotta say, all right, I'm gonna make this a priority and start to make it happen. And so that's really cool to see you take that step and do that and make it happen, man. I'll share a funny story, and then I have one last question for you. My dad, when he was alive, he was a wildlife photographer, bird photographer as well. And so we kind of came up doing that together. And in our local area in southern New Jersey, he started the same thing. This was back when Flickr was the only social media that exists. The only way to share photos, you know, like before Facebook, before any other platform to do that, it was Flickr. And so there was like small groups on there, and we had one for a local wildlife refuge and he, he took it upon himself to go on there and put like a message on like one of the message boards and say, hey, you know, we're gonna go here on to this wildlife refuge on this day. Anybody else want to join? And we had like a small turnout. And then the next time he did it was like more and it kind of grew, you know, nothing crazy, I think, you know, at the most maybe like, I don't know, seven, eight people would show up, but you got to know some people in person. And like, it's so funny to this day. One is a really good friend of mine that I met through there and that's going like, you know, I don't know, almost, almost 20 years back now at this point. And yeah, so it's really cool to see someone doing that instead of just trying only the online community. So I think there's definitely something really cool to that.

[B]

Yeah, thanks. And it's. That's, that's great. I love, I love hearing stories like that. And it's such a. I mean, this hobby is so fun and the people you meet are often so like minded.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's usually not just wildlife photography you have in common. There's usually a bunch of other stuff, you know, so really enjoyed it.

[A]

Yeah. And that's the beauty. I get by, by running a business and doing the workshops and mentorships and stuff like that is I get to meet all these people, you know, some a lot online, but then many of them in person and get to have that community that. So my last question is a big one and we can, we can chat about it for a while, but I just would love to hear, how did you guys decide to do this big trip international. And how long was it? How many countries did you visit? Do you know those stats off the top of your head?

[B]

I think it was 13 months. A little over 13 months. And the way it came about, it's kind of sad, but it's kind of cool. So my mom got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and she wound up passing away, like six months to the day after being diagnosed.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And I was her kind of caretaker during that time. And after that, we had just gone through the pandemic, and both me and my wife had worked in entertainment and hospitality, so we both had gotten furloughed. It was just like a rough couple of years. Years, no doubt. But we were kind of at this inflection point where we're like, okay, do we want to. We have some money squirreled away? Do we want to put a down payment on a house and go that route?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or do we want to go full send and put every, like, put everything into storage, like, get out of our. Get out of our lease and just do it. And I think I was at that point where I'm like, I don't know what the rest of my life or the world is going to look like. Five years. I can't plan, I can't predict. I can't figure this out. So I'm just. I want to travel and I want to. I've always wanted to do it, and I do not want to get into my mid-60s or if I even make it to my mid-60s.

[A]

That's the only thing. Totally.

[B]

Like, who the heck knows?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

I mean, my mom is not old and like, our family history is pretty bad, so there's a little bit of me, like, I might only have 10 years. I don't know. So it's like, oh. So, yeah, we just put everything into storage and took our down payment money and traveled.

[A]

Good for you.

[B]

And yeah, I think it's been kind of a rough landing coming back, you know, trying to rebuild our lives. And I mean, we're living. I. We have a roommate and everything else that we love dearly, but, like, we're. We're living, like, pretty lean right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's also like you with traveling in a van, it's like. Like, this is. But I kind of like it. It gives me the freedom to do other things, so.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Yeah. That's how it came about. I couldn't tell you how many countries. I think it was 19 or something like that.

[A]

Wow. Wow. Did you know them all ahead of time or did you just kind of bounce from place to place and plan as you went along.

[B]

We had. We had kind of the country list in mind.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But we didn't plan much in advance because it's like, we're not going to book flights. Lights all the way out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We want the flexibility of, hey, do we like this place? We'll stay longer.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So that's exactly how it played out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think we made it to every country that we had kind of originally planned to.

[A]

That's pretty cool.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So it was. I felt it was also one of those things, like, I had this foreboding feeling of kind of like, I don't know what the rest of this decade's gonna look like. You know, this. We left in 2024, the beginning of 2024. And I kind of had this queasy feeling in my stomach, like, Kind of feel like the next. Next decade or so could be pret. So let's get out now. And so we went and did everything and then, like, we've come back and a lot of things. I feel like traveling as an American right now is even worse than it used to be.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

As far as just being judged or, you know, not. I mean, our passport isn't even as strong as it used to be. So it's like, yeah, certain places we can't go anymore. So anyway, that's. That was kind of the. The plan or how it all kind of came together there.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. And I just think merging. Yeah. No, I assume zoom. No regrets. And a wonderful experience. Right?

[B]

Heck, yeah, man. I absolutely loved it. We met a lot of people. I think there's just a lot of connections. And just seeing the world is. I mean, travel to me has always been the top of my list of things I want to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just. I cannot be more thankful or grateful for what my eyeballs have been able to see. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's bananas. And I mean, and wildlife photography has helped that so much too. Like, I see so many more sunrises and sunsets than I used to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and it's. It's just the best, dude.

[A]

Emily and I have say all the time. We're like. We end up in these places and we're like, we would have never, never ended up here if it wasn't for chasing some birds or whatever. Wildlife, you know, like, it just wouldn't have happened. This place is not on anybody's radar outside of. Of, you know, like, this community. You know, it's not a well known tourist destination. And yet we're here and we're like, this is incredible. How does not everybody know about this? You know, you just. I mean, and then at the same time, you're like, I'm glad not everybody knows about this.

[B]

But yeah, we're probably the only people that are traveling like six hours to go to a water treatment plant.

[A]

Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, totally, man. But it is. It is such a wonderful thing and grateful all the time. And it's so cool. Cool to see what you did with it, how you captured it, both with the wildlife and just with the, you know, some of the other stuff you've shared. And I guess that is one other last question I do want to ask before we wrap this up is, you know, you have started sharing some of the other stuff. You said you did a comedy club the other day and you shared some of that on your profile. I think that's awesome. I love that you're just sharing it all there. Was there a lot of thought that went into or debated debate internally of do I share this stuff in with my birds and. Or is it just, you knew, like, screw it. I'm just putting it all together.

[B]

I've gone back and forth. Like, I have another profile that I had for non bird stuff.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I've gone back and forth multiple times, and I think I've. I've kind of arrived, at least for now, at this place where I'm like, I don't really want to be a wildlife photographer.

[A]

Just gotcha.

[B]

I don't want that to be my title. I'd rather just be a photographer. Yeah. And I do a lot of wildlife photography, and I think it'll always be my favorite kind of photography. But to me, I'm like, it's all coming from me, so why shouldn't I just post it here? You know, I think if I got to a point where I was actually getting booked more consistently with gigs for concerts and stuff, it might be advantageous for me to separate the two.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But at the same time, I'm like, I feel like it'd be cool if I was hiring somebody and I went to their page and like, oh, this guy also shoots wildlife. That's cool. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I. So I'm. I'm at the point where I'm just like, throw it all up there. You know, people like it. They like, like it.

[A]

Well, I think. I think it's like a different approach. Right. One is, I'm gonna make this account, my social media, all about this one genre and the other is I'm gonna make it all about me as the photographer, you know, And I think I'm

[B]

making it all about me, baby.

[A]

Yeah, no, but I think, I think that's fine, right? I think that's, there's something to that, especially with what you were just talking about earlier with, you know, trying to make connections and stuff. Right. It's easier to make connections when you can see a social media profile that's a little bit more all encompassing about the person, the photographer, photographer, not just the one part that is maybe, you know, the one little pigeonholed genre or anything like that. So I think it's cool. I dig it. I like seeing your other stuff. So, you know, for what it's worth, I appreciate it.

[B]

Thanks. I know some people, or quite a few people probably don't like it. I think I've floated it to a few other wildlife photographers and they're kind of like, you should just post the wildlife stuff, like that's your audience. But I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be exactly. I. I don't know. We'll see. I'll probably know right away, change it in a month and,

[A]

well, I'll enjoy it until that happens. So. Yeah, man. Kyle, thank you so much for taking the time to join me. This has been a great conversation and I can't wait to see what you continue to do. It's really, really fun stuff, man.

[B]

Well, thank you very much. It's a pure pleasure and I'm absolutely honored to be. Be invited as a guest. I really, I think in my head a couple years ago when I started getting into this, I found your podcast pretty quickly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And in the back of my head, I'm maybe revealing too much here, but the back of my head, I had this podcast, like, being a guest on this podcast is almost a benchmark for where I was as a photographer.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

So it feels like something in the back of my head that I finally get to check off, like, oh, I've, like, I'm here. Yeah, it was great for reaching out.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely, man.

[B]

Really appreciate it.

[A]

Yeah. And next time we're in la, definitely try and see if our schedules can align and connect. That'll be a fun time, man.

[B]

Yeah, dude, Hit me up anytime you're within 600 miles. I will.

[A]

Love, love it, man. I love that flexibility. Good stuff, dude. Well, thanks again, man. Keep it up. Hey, this is Ray Hennessey. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and got something helpful from it. I also hope you join me for the next episode, please subscribe on your favorite podcast player and help me spread this podcast around by sharing with your friends and fellow photographers. It would also be a huge help for the podcast if you could give it a five star rating and possibly a review wherever you listen to the podcast. Thanks again and I'll see you on the next episode.