Julia Gets Wise with Cyndi Lauper

Summary

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Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode: Julia Gets Wise with Cyndi Lauper

Date: June 24, 2026
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Cyndi Lauper

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Episode Overview

In the Season 4 premiere, Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down with the trailblazing musician, songwriter, and activist Cyndi Lauper. The conversation is as vibrant and unfiltered as its guest, exploring creativity, aging, resilience, activism, and the transformative power of art. With unguarded honesty, Lauper goes deep on everything from reinvention and self-advocacy to wardrobe cleanouts, marriage, mystical experiences, and the ever-present fight for women’s rights. The episode is packed with stories, belly laughs, and nuggets of wisdom about enduring, evolving, speaking up, and finding joy in self-expression.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Art, Expression & Society

[00:07-05:30]

• Julia reflects on the importance of artists in turbulent times, voicing concerns about the current era’s attacks on facts and expression:
  • "Facts are disputed...then they're weaponized. It's like there's this attack on our ability to trust what we perceive..."
  • "Art makes its argument through feeling, and feeling stubbornly can't be controlled."
• She toasts to all artists—musical or otherwise—who persist despite resistance, referencing icons like Billie Holiday, Aretha Franklin, and of course, Cyndi Lauper.

2. Cyndi on Age, Fitness & Defying Expectations

[06:01–11:16]

• Lauper, at 72, proudly claims her age, rejecting society’s ageist expectations:

  • "What am I, a car? What do you want to do? Kick the tires, put the hood up and check the mileage?" [06:26]

• Cyndi candidly discusses fitness myths, recounting seeing an 80-year-old woman “with guns” at the gym and realizing muscle-building is possible at any age:

  • "She never worked out in her life until she was 70. Now she's got guns like the big boys." [08:52]

• She ties this physical flexibility to vocal flexibility, emphasizing self-care for longevity as a performer:

  • “For me, I love stretching, but what I love more than stretching is yoga...what you really want, too, is flexibility. And same thing with your voice.” [09:07]

• Cyndi battled vocal cord damage post-COVID, refusing a risky fix—“That'll be the fucking day that that ever happens” [11:00]—and instead doing the slow work to recover.

3. Fashion, Clearing Out, & Activism

[11:16–14:31]

• Discussion shifts to Cyndi auctioning off parts of her iconic wardrobe to benefit her women’s rights fund:

  • "By the time you can fit into it, it's not even what you'd want to wear anymore, right? So I just said, nah, fuck it, do it. Let's raise money and who cares?" [11:50]
  • Julia: “I thought, oh, shit, maybe that's what I should do with all of this stuff I've got in storage.” [12:15]

• Cyndi jokes about hiding her signature style when out because of fame, and wishes for her hair to turn white so she can dye it wild colors—“There is nothing natural about me. And I have no problem with that.” [13:48]

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4. Early Life: Confidence, Catholic School & Speaking Up

[20:44–24:11]

• Julia asks about Cyndi’s upbringing and being thrown out of two Catholic schools, to which Cyndi credits her defense of her mother:
  • “He said, 'Do you want to go to hell like your mother?' ... I said, 'What are you talking about? You don't even know my mother. She's not going to hell. She's a good woman.' ... I was a wise 8 year old.” [22:22]
• These experiences shaped her voice and drive—“After a while, what do you think I was gonna do? ... Be careful what you wish for.” [24:11]

5. Rewriting the Rules: “Girls Just Want to Have Fun” as Anthem

[24:40–27:59]

• Julia highlights how the song, originally written by a man, was transformed by Cyndi:
  • “You took that song, which was a sexual song written by a man ... and you made it a feminist anthem.” [26:44]
• Cyndi describes changing the narrative and fighting rock’s boys-club culture:
  • “You're like, no, motherfucker, can you sing like me? ... Cause motherfucker's coming and I'm coming big. I’m not coming little.” [25:01]
• She pokes fun at the video’s wrestling theme: “And it was a joke, but it's not. I want people to think about it.” [27:43]

6. Inspiration, Impostor Syndrome & Resilience

[28:02–30:32 & 48:10–50:20]

• The conversation turns to showbiz recognition, experiencing imposter syndrome, and pushing through moments of self-doubt:
  • “Confidence, yes. Imposter, no. Because I am who I am, and there's nothing I can do about it. It's kind of like Popeye.” [48:32]
  • During tough industry years: “If I have to chop down the path myself ... then that's what this is.” [49:28]
• Julia observes: “You're all about the act of creating. This is what it's—this is my takeaway ... You are looking for a creative expression, and that's period, full stop.” [50:00]

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7. Personal Stories: Style, Fame, and Reinvention

[30:32–35:05]

• Cyndi recounts confidently defending her radical style to skeptics even before fame and later escalating her fashion to subvert imitators:
  • "I was pissed off and I thought, fuck you. Now I'm gonna make you crow here a little bit. ... The next year, actually, people did start dressing like me." [31:23]
  • "I started wearing long johns and suit jacket over it. I said, come on, motherfuckers. This is ugly. Come on, do ugly." [32:02]
• She provides a preview of her Vegas residency costumes—complete with a dazzling disco-ball headdress:
  • "Everybody looks stunning with a headdress. You look taller." [34:16]

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8. Creative Battles & Career Setbacks

[35:05–40:12]

• Cyndi shares about her disagreements with Steven Spielberg over “The Goonies” theme video and wanting more creative input:
  • “He wanted to do a green screen ... I was hoping we could do something a little more creative ... he got up very indignant.” [36:13]
• On the movie “Vibes” and career difficulties that followed, she recalls heartbreak—not just in work, but personally when her then-manager/partner left her during her lowest point:
  • "I just didn’t have the stomach for that. And it broke my heart." [39:00]

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9. Love, Psychic Premonitions & Enduring Partnerships

[40:12–46:02]

• Cyndi found love on the set of “Off and Running,” courting now-husband David Thornton with humorous notes—sometimes with shrimp tails attached to fit her mermaid role.
• She discusses a lifelong sense of intuition and vivid premonitions, including being drawn to the name David all her life and having prophetic dreams:
  • "I always kept hearing, 'Wait till you meet David.' Don’t be discouraged. Wait till you meet David." [43:44]
  • On intuition: “Sometimes you don’t [listen]. And then you’re like, oh, you should have heard.” [45:59]

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10. Composing for Broadway & Facing the Unknown

[46:02–48:10]

• Lauper details writing the music for "Kinky Boots" (her first Broadway show) and the learning curve in developing music for complex characters:
  • “Harvey kept telling me what he wanted, and I would have done anything for him, so I did whatever it took.” [46:27]
  • “I kept saying, what are the rules, Harvey?... He said, ‘Sin, there are no rules.’” [46:51]
  • “The best line to this day that I think I ever wrote was, ‘You could tell about a fella from his shoes.’” [47:29]

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11. Activism & Philanthropy

[52:33–54:19]

• Lauper describes her “Girls Just Want to Have Fundamental Rights Fund,” which supports organizations focused on women’s wellbeing—reproductive rights, healthcare, domestic violence, and more.
  • “We fund organizations with their boots on the ground, the ones really doing the work.” [52:44]
• She shares her husband’s lesson in kindness:
  • “Always find the person in the room that nobody's talking to and go over to them and talk to them. Because that's what you can do to change the atmosphere to make it better.” [54:19]

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12. Marriage, Teamwork, and Creative Partnership

[54:29–56:08]

• Cyndi discusses her long, successful marriage—crediting frequent separations due to touring and collaboration on creative projects:
  • “No, for him...we're now doing this animated short together. ... I don't do good with the suits. I'm not a suit person.” [54:42]
• On teamwork:
  • “You can’t do anything big by yourself. ... Unless you’re Prince.” [55:34]

13. What’s Next & Reflections on Aging

[56:08–58:50]

• Cyndi is excited about collaborating on a short animation, “Leaf,” about a leaf that wants to fly, not fall; she scores the music and provides a voice.

• On aging and appearance:

  • “My face and my body is part of my business suit. ... I want to look good. ... I want to look like me. Just not so tired, probably, you know? And what's wrong with that?” [57:56]

• Julia: “I'm looking at you right now. You're just wearing lipstick. I think you look exquisite.”

• Cyndi: “So do you.” [58:56]

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14. Endurance, Family Wisdom & “It’s Not the End”

[59:05–60:51]

• Lauper traces her resilience to her lineage—women who endured and survived.
  • “I come from a long line of women who survive...you endure. I lived through every bad thing and every good thing.” [59:05]
• She finds hope even in a fortune cookie:
  • “It said, 'it'll be okay in the end. If it isn't, it's not the end.'” [60:43]

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Notable Quotes

• Julia: "Art makes its argument through feeling, and feeling stubbornly can't be controlled." [00:28]
• Cyndi: “What am I, a car? What do you want to do? Kick the tires, put the hood up and check the mileage?” [06:26]
• Cyndi: "There is nothing natural about me. And I have no problem with that." [13:48]
• Cyndi: “If this is the path I have to take to go where I’m going, then this is the path. And if I have to chop down the path myself, my own path, then that's what this is.” [49:28]
• Cyndi: "You can change the world if you change your mind." [59:05]
• Cyndi: “It’ll be okay in the end. If it isn’t, it’s not the end.” [60:43]

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Memorable & Lighthearted Moments

• Cyndi showing off her disco-ball headdress for her Vegas residency and dreaming up a headdress dinner party. [33:34]
• Casual banter about clearing out closets and the realities (and fantasies) of celebrity wardrobes. [12:28]
• Joking about camouflaging her look to avoid recognition and yearning for white hair to dye: “I can’t wait till my hair turns white so I could stain it all those different colors.” [13:18]
• Cyndi’s vivid childhood confidence confronting a priest at age eight, protecting her mother’s reputation. [22:22]
• Sweet, quirky stories of meeting her husband, communicating with “love letters” stapled with shrimp tails. [41:20]
• Philosophical riffs about intuition, luck, fortune cookies, and the wisdom of enduring.

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Important Timestamps

• 00:07: Julia’s opening reflection on art, expression, and the artist’s role in society
• 06:01: Cyndi joins; talks age, fitness, and bucking stereotypes
• 11:28: Cyndi’s wardrobe auction & fundraising
• 20:44: Childhood, Catholic school rebellion, and confidence
• 24:40: Rewriting "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" into a feminist anthem
• 30:32: Fame, fashion, and fighting imitators
• 35:56: Creative disputes (Spielberg/Goonies video)
• 40:12: Meeting her husband; psychic premonitions
• 46:20: Writing for Kinky Boots; creative learning curve
• 52:44: Activism: Girls Just Want to Have Fundamental Rights Fund
• 54:42: Marriage, collaboration, and creative partnership
• 56:08: Excitement for her upcoming short animation with husband
• 57:56: Thoughts on aging, appearance, and self-care
• 59:05: Family wisdom, resilience, and hope in a fortune cookie

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Final Note

The episode is a masterclass in joyous defiance, creative fearlessness, and the enduring power of women’s voices. Cyndi Lauper’s candor, humor, and wisdom infuse the conversation with laughs and luminous insight, making clear why she’s not just an icon—she’s wiser than most.

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Transcript

[Cyndi Lauper]

Lemonade?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. I'm not sure how we got here, but all of a sudden we live in a world where facts are disputed. They're drowned in noise, and then they're weaponized. It's like there's this attack on our ability to trust what we perceive, and then confusion and a kind of numbed stupefication are the result. But art does the opposite. I think art makes its argument through feeling, and feeling stubbornly can't be controlled. History can be rewritten and heroes removed, but it's harder to erase how people react to a novel or a painting or a movie. I mean, that's why they used to sneak rock and roll into the Soviet Union. People needed that forbidden feeling. When there's so much propaganda and chaos, the artist's job gets more essential and, frankly, more dangerous. I used to think that there was no way that people would really riot at those old Ibsen plays back in the day, but now, I mean, I can see how a good play set in, say, Gaza or on the first tea at Mar a Lago might cause a bit of a fuss when our government sees artists as the enemy. When, like, portraitist Amy Sherrild is told what paintings she can show at the Smithsonian. Yikes. That's the start of something truly terrifying. It's a very small step from here to punishing dissent itself, to burning books in the Babel plots in Berlin. Which isn't to say all art is magically virtuous or anything. I mean, it's not. The idea here is a basic right to freedom of expression. I mean, I've done a lot of comedy in my career, and people don't immediately think of comedy as part of the artist holding up the mirror to society thing. But, of course, that's exactly what comedy does, and that's why it's the comedians who go down first. The. The Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmels. And I've got nothing against more dramatic, serious stuff. I'm just. I'm just putting a plug in for my team. So let's make a toast to artists, the outrageous, brave people who have a direct conduit from the physical world to personal expression to cultural impact, not just political artists. I'm really talking about any artist who elicits a real human response, who shakes us up in this very difficult, deadened time. You know, Billie Holiday, Aretha Franklin, David Byrne, Bad Bunny and Bonnie Raden, Roz Chast, and a whole bunch of other past guests on this show. Artists who cannot help but create, artists who make the world more luminous who show us our true colors. And that's why I am so happy today to talk to the irrepressible Cyndi La. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus and this is Wiser than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. I lived in New York in the early 1980s. The city was broke, filthy and genuinely dangerous. Graffiti covered every subway car. Times Square was a theme park of vice. I mean, and you couldn't walk through Central park at night. It wasn't so great in the daytime either. It was a dark place. And then came the moment Cyndi Lauper just lit the whole thing up. She was absolutely Technicolor and she ruled New York. She brought the city's vintage punk boutique, screaming Mimis and Queen street style into the mainstream. Insane, mismatched layers, hair you could just land a helicopter on her. Her don't mess with me attitude really felt like the city itself, you know, chaotic and magnetic. But she was different. She was fun, all caps. Cindy was hilarious. She owned the messy and the loud. A real creative force who spoke her mind with abandon. Pretty hard to imagine Lady Gaga or Chapel Rowan or Pink or a host of superstars without the original Cyndi Lauper. Beyond music, she has been a fierce advocate for social justice, creating real change in the world with her Girls Just Want to have Fundamental Rights Fund, which raises money to advance women's civil rights, women well being and healthcare around the globe. Not to mention her decades long commitment to fighting for LGBTQ equality. Real dedication has made her a trusted, beloved figure in communities she has long called family. And the accolades. Good God. Grammy winner, Emmy winner, the first solo woman composer to win a Tony Award for best original score for Kinky Boots. The first artist to have first four top five songs on one album. She sold over 50 million records worldwide and is in both the Songwriters hall of Fame and the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. And she's very much still out there doing it all. Including her first ever Vegas residency, which kicks off this year. Please welcome a musician, an activist, a woman who is so much wiser than me, Cyndi Laupfer. Hi, Cindy.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Hey doll, how are you? Look at you, look at you. Oh, that's a nice background. Although mine is a fucking mess.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, come on. Well, maybe messy, but it's all really cool looking stuff I'm seeing there. But anyway, let's jump in. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Sure, why? I'm 72. If you look it up. When I first came out, I Was very concerned because I was 30 and girls just want to have fun was coming out and what they used to like to do is tell you, you know, oh, how old are you? And I used to say, what am I, a car? What do you want to do? Kick the tires, put the hood up and check the mileage?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Actually, yes. It doesn't really matter. I know, I know, it doesn't matter, does it? Hey, how old do you feel, by the way? Inside?

[Cyndi Lauper]

72.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you do feel 72?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, what is 72?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, you tell me.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, here's how I think. I think it's a bunch of bull that they give you these numbers and they tell you what you're supposed to do at what age and what age you're supposed to feel like this and what age you're supposed to feel like that. And I think it's a load of crap. Yeah, and they used to tell me when I was in my 50s and I was working out like, well, listen, Cindy, you know, when you get older you can't really do the things you used to and you won't be able to work out because your body, body won't build muscle. And that's a crock because I walked into, you know, I used to go to the gym. Now I have like a trainer and I go into the big boy gym, you know, Cause there's a regular gym and then there's a big boy gym where they lift the heavy, heavy weights. You know, I was always there with the eight pounds, looking at the guy lifting 20, going show off, you know, just showing off. But my form, look at my form, it's really better than yours, pal.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, you know, what's your workout regime? I mean, like has it changed from when you were younger? Has it gotten better? Is it more specific, if you don't mind my asking?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah, let me tell you about the gym. When I went to the big boy gym and I look down and I see this 80 year old woman and she's benching. And you know, I was afraid to talk to her cause she had guns and I thought she could squeeze my head like a pimple. That's how strong she looked. And of course my manager was going to the same gym at the time and she talked to her and she said, oh, you know, I never really worked out before, but when I was 70, I lost my husband and I just started coming to the gym. Wow. And a man, I looked at her and I was like, so it's not true. So they're full of shit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Cause look at her. She never worked out in her life until she was 70. Now she's got guns like the big boys.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So have you been able to really develop muscle since you've gotten older?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah. You do develop if you use them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

For me, I love stretching, but what I love more than stretching is yoga.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really? Are you a big yoga person?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yay. I'm just learning how to do up with downward dog correctly. You know, when you're young, you're like, okay, I think I got it. You know, but it's a combo and weights, right? Because you want to build the muscle. But what you really want, too, is flexibility. And same thing with your voice. There's the muscle building and the flexibility and the sustain. When I started, I thought, you know, when I was in the clubs and I was doing cover bands, which taught me a lot.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Oh, I thought I was great. I mean, really great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

But, you know, I could never keep my range because I couldn't fucking hear, and I was overblowing, and it was making a mess. So what happens is your vocal cords start banging together and you're pushing, pushing, pushing. So you forget how your voice naturally works. So of course you're gonna be sore,

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

you know, actually sore in your throat, in where your voice is.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah, of course you'll be sore in your throat. Imagine if you were doing that with your exercise. If you push, push, push, instead of just doing, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

So now I found a good teacher. I've been with her for 40 years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, wow.

[Cyndi Lauper]

You know, now, you know, I'll go back. I'm not under strain. Oh, my God. They drove me crazy. Cause one vocal cord collapsed from COVID They said one vocal cord has shrunk. I was like, yeah. And then he told me, but don't worry, you can get filler.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, it's not true.

[Cyndi Lauper]

You telling me. I get filler in my face sometimes, and I know what it feels like. You don't feel anything. You can't sing like that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Cyndi Lauper]

That'll wreck your freaking voice. Right? So I told him, I says, that'll be the fucking day that that ever happens.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I didn't do it. Yeah, I didn't do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good, good.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I just went back to my exercises. I always do. She listened. We worked on strength and building and building and building. And my voice came back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good, good. So, Cindy, I'm looking behind you, and I'm gonna describe for our listeners here. I'm seeing racks of clothes and hats and all sorts of things.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So tell Us? What's going on there? Cause I saw that piece in the New York Times. You opened up your personal closet to the public, and you gave the proceeds to your Girls Just Want to have Fundamental Rights Fund, which is just so wonderful. You sold pieces of your wardrobe.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, we sold a considerable part. We have to save something.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, that was my question. How did you decide what to save, Cindy?

[Cyndi Lauper]

And, well, I said, okay, you know how you get something that's too small? But you keep saying, I'm going to lose the weight. I'm going to lose the weight. I'm going to fit into it. By the time you can fit into it, it's not even what you'd want to wear anymore, right? So I just said, nah, fuck it, do it. Let's raise money and who cares? You can't. What's the difference? You got to get rid of shit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You got to get rid of it.

[Cyndi Lauper]

You want to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But I love the idea that you did this in support of women's rights. And it's just. In fact, I thought that was really inspirational. I thought, oh, shit, maybe that's what I should do with all of this stuff I've got in storage.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Julia, you can't wear everything.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No. And after you're done clearing out your closet, I need you to come here and clear out. I have the same thing. I've got a bunch of shit in storage.

[Cyndi Lauper]

What, are you wearing it? No, you're not. And it's not like Hacks. I mean, I watched Hacks, and I thought she has in there plain hanger for her clothes. And all of the clothes come down and it's electronic. Oh, my God. You know. But, you know, they don't really need that. No, I don't need that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What do you like when you're going, you know, out to go? I mean, we know your look. Your fabulous Cyndi Lauper.

[Cyndi Lauper]

No, that's when you go out. But when you go out to a restaurant, first it's kind of messed up, but it's what it is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What?

[Cyndi Lauper]

When you go out with people and you're famous, I always feel two different kind of responsibilities. Dress down. Don't look like yourself. Wear something to cover your hair color. Because for me, you know, I can't wait till my hair turns white so I could stain it. All those different colors, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What color is it now?

[Cyndi Lauper]

I would call this mint.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, no, but your real color, your true color.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Oh, honey, I ain't seen that in a long time. There is nothing natural about me. And I have no problem with that. I've been dyeing my hair since I was but I used the Green Food Cola because it was St Patrick's Day and I wanted to have like the green dress with the green hair. Like all green. Unbelievable, you know. Yeah, but it didn't really go green unless you were in the sun because you know you have to bleach your hair. Oh, right. And I'll tell you, I don't mind bleaching my hair because I don't think that my head will work right without those chemicals.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's time to take a break. My conversation with Cyndi Lauper continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter on Substack where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Cindy and more. You can subscribe now at wisertheme.substack.com you'll get photos and videos and letters from me. Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast. Real deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser Than Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back. Summer is when bad fabric really shows its true colors. The polyester that traps heat like a greenhouse. The breathable cotton that somehow neither. The weird sticky pleather that feels like it was sewn together from bike tires. The linen blend that's 4% linen and 96% lies. 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[Cyndi Lauper]

Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. When you were growing up in New York, you described yourself as being wild and fighting and mouthing off when you got into trouble.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I didn't describe myself as that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You didn't?

[Cyndi Lauper]

That's what my sister said. Well, okay, so I wasn't mild. Okay, so I got thrown out of two parochial Catholic schools.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What did you get thrown out for? Why?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, Julia, I like to say it was political differences. Yeah, I like that a lot. Well, it was true. I happened to like this one priest, right? Sky Father Cunningham probably gets sued for it, but I don't even think he's alive anymore. So this guy was always marching back and forth. And for me, honestly, Julia, the fashion. He had pants with a pleated skirt, like over the pants, plus these big beads going down. All right, granted they were rosary beads, but they were big, Right? Then he had the shirt with the white collar, but it was black with white. Right. A little French you know, kind of like the sailors. And I would follow him back and forth and he would say, what's your name? And I would say, cynthia. And he kept saying, that's nice, Sylvia. So after I was just Sylvia, and that was okay. But then one day I was running late and I had to go to confession. And I saw that he didn't have a big line, so I figured, oh, I know that guy. Let me go. So I go, my mother was divorced and going through all this stuff, and he said, I didn't go to Mass. And he said, you didn't go to Mass? Do you want to go to hell like your mother? Oh. And I said, I was eight, okay? And I said to him, I said, what are you talking about? You don't even know my mother. She's not going to hell. She's a good woman and she takes care of her kids and she loves her kids. She's not going to hell. And now I think I did a very good job of not saying, but you, sir, you might go to hell for telling an eight year old that her mother's going to hell. Okay? Because there's something wrong here, right? But I didn't. And I thought that was a plus, right? It is a plus, but it was a plus. I was a wise 8 year old. And then of course, this rat bastard, after all the times he couldn't remember my name, he remembered my name because the monsignor called up my mother and said, you know, I don't think that you can send your girls here anymore because your lifestyle and what we preach are two different things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

My God.

[Cyndi Lauper]

So what do you do? Get rid of them. Cause they might be trouble.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But, you know, I think it's extraordinary that you had the wherewithal at 8 years old to say that.

[Cyndi Lauper]

So

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

in defense of your mom and yourself, it really speaks volumes to your. Some kind of confidence you had at a very young age and clarity of mind. That's extraordinary.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I mean, there's so many stuff that happened to me when I was a kid and that I saw growing up with my grandmother, with my mother, with my aunt. The stories of the women I know. You know, after a while, what do you think I was gonna do? Right? That's why When Girls Just Want to have Fun came out in the beginning, I was like, you want me to make it an anthem? Be careful. Be careful what you wish for.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, yeah. So can we talk about that for a second? Because that song was written by a man for men, saying, girls just want to have fun.

[Judith Bowles]

Ha. Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you turned it on its head and you made it a feminist anthem. Yeah. So talk about what you did to that song.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, I just edited.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, yeah. Well, what was the editing? Tell me the editing you did.

[Cyndi Lauper]

He had this wonderful song, Escalator of Life, and it was a little Bowie esque, and so was girls. A tiny bit Bowie esque. But if I tried to sing it like him, it didn't work out. It was sounding like, yeah, yawn, who cares? And I mean, we worked on that song over and over. And then, you know, obviously I took out the. The part where he goes that the girl climbed up to his bedroom and it was a lot of fun and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay. And you gotta understand too, the history. Think about the history of music. Think about who they targeted. Think about Frank Sinatra and the girls screaming Elvis and the girls screaming. And then I was like, okay. So then you're in a band and you're a guy. And then there's this whole thing with the groupies. And, you know, there were rock gods, they played their instruments and women swooned over them and would do anything to be with them and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, here you are, a girl, a woman, a young woman coming up in that bullshit where people expect you to swoon. And you're like, no, motherfucker, can you sing like me? Uh, you can't, can you? Mm, mm. So back off, bitch. Cause motherfucker's coming and I'm coming big. I'm not coming little.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, I have to say, it's interesting too, because you took that song, which was a sexual song written by a man talking about the so called fun he wants to have with girls.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, it was like he was, dad, we are the fortunate ones. Cause girls, they want to have fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And of course that. No, but if that's what happens to you, that's your experience. But to come to a radical like me. But maybe they weren't thinking and say, make an anthem and not think. I wasn't gonna try and fit it in any which way I could. Even in the wrestling, it was all about women belong pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen. Don't get me mad, Lou. Don't get me mad. Yeah, right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. You were playing with all of that in the music video with the wrestler Captain Lou Albano. It was fantastic.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And it was a joke, but it's not. I want people to think about it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, of course.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And how many. Just how many women are there in the United States? Why aren't we all standing up going, no. Just no.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that's a great question, Cindy. Really, That's a great question.

[Cyndi Lauper]

So I have a question for you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'll answer.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Cause I watch you, you know, I've watched you over the years, and you're very funny, and Veep was really great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, thanks, man.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And so was Seinfeld.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you.

[Cyndi Lauper]

It was funny. I did Mad about you. And I remember. And I won. And I thought we were all gonna win, but I won and I won next to. I was standing next to Jean Stapleton. Oh, Jean Stapleton. And she was nominated. And I won. I was like. I was thinking to myself, how does that work? And how bizarre that was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're talking about the Emmys, right?

[Cyndi Lauper]

The Emmys, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And for our listeners, you won an Emmy for Outstanding Guest Actress in a Comedy Series for Mad about yout.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah. And I was dressed more like mtv, I guess. And they were so snarky. The press was really snarky to me. And I didn't have a support team to help me through, so I said the wrong thing. But the truth is, whenever you go to those shows, I was standing next to people that I watched on tv. All my life. Yeah, all my life. Yeah. In fact, I used to, like, sing the theme song of all in the Family Bunker. You know, all in the Family. Because I. Guys like us, we had it made. Yeah, I know. I just, you know, and I just. I just, like, could not believe. And then when I came down and I saw Seinfeld and you guys were

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

winning everything, you know, we only won once. You know that. The show only won one time. So that must have been that year. And I have no idea what year that was.

[Cyndi Lauper]

How the fuck could that be?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We kept getting beaten by friends. I mean. No, not friends. Sorry. Frasier.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Frasier, right. Frasier, Frasier. Or what's that other one with the bar?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Cheers.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Cheers, right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Cheers.

[Judith Bowles]

All that stuff.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And then Friends was on then, too. And maybe they beat us, too. I don't really remember. But we did win once. So it was sometime in the early 90s.

[Cyndi Lauper]

It was 94. Cause my hair was dago yellow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Would have been then.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So can you talk about back in the early days? I mean, before you hit it big, and then you hit it, like, big, big. What was your life like back then? I mean, what was your style like?

[Cyndi Lauper]

We subleased. Well, my boyfriend, manager David Wolf, which was good at first but not good after. But I remember that year because I was going to rehearsal, I was going somewhere, and I dressed, you know, how I wanted to live that radical way. And that's why my head was short on what I wanted it to be. Radical. So I never forgot who I was. Ever. And I was in On Sutton Place in a drugstore. And a woman came up to me and she said, what is that you're wearing? And I looked at her and I said, this. This is what your daughter's gonna be wearing next year. And I got in the limo and we drove away.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Get out of here.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I just said that. Cause I was pissed off and I thought, fuck you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Now I'm gonna make you crow here a little bit. Cause you're scared of me a little. Cause of the way I look. You don't even know me. But you'd made assumptions, so I did that. And the next year, actually, people did start dressing like me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, of course they did.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And it was weird.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But listen, when you were. When you start to notice people dressing like you, was that. I mean, I understand it must have been a little bit strange, because it's your personal signature. But then did you grow accustomed to it or did you fight or have a desire to mock?

[Cyndi Lauper]

I fought.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You fought?

[Cyndi Lauper]

I fought. By making my clothes something they would never cut. Like, I started wearing long johns and suit jacket over it. I said, come on, motherfuckers. This is ugly. Come on, do ugly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you still feel that way now, Cindy?

[Cyndi Lauper]

I don't care. I see it. I see what we do and then how it bleeds into fashion.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, but like now, like when you're gonna get dolled up to go out and make and you're gonna. Like for Vegas, for example, are you?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Oh, that's different. No, for Vegas, I'm probably gonna do the show I was doing with a few little changes that are more geared to Vegas. That would be fun. Mm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm coming to see this. I gotta come see this.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah, come on. I don't know how I'm gonna sing with a headdress and move.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're gonna have a headdress?

[Cyndi Lauper]

I don't know. I was thinking about it. I got a headdress in here somewhere, and I was gonna, you know, wear it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Like a big thing on your head type of thing.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, it's not that big. How big is the disco ball thing? It's not that big. Where is it? Here. Wait a minute.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All right.

[Cyndi Lauper]

You know, I want to have a dinner party where everybody just comes. You have the headdresses out, and everybody just comes and puts on a headdress. And that's how we have dinner. Wouldn't that be fun?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I'd love to come to that. Yes, please. Invite me to come to that. I'm coming. Is this it? Okay. I think.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah, this is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. Here comes a headdress. It's in plastic. Let's see.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Of course it is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I can't believe we're getting a preview of the disco ball headdress.

[Cyndi Lauper]

No, but I don't think I could wear it. I wore this for Gay Pride in Holly. Was it Hollywood Gay Pride? West Hollywood Gay Pride.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. This headdress. Okay, this looks like the Statue of Liberty came to Gay Pride and decided it was the 70s.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Let me see.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Come on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Tell me that ain't God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You look stunning, Right?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Everybody looks stunning with a headdress. You look taller.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I wish I had that on. I fucking love that dress.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Do you have one? You need one? You should do your podcast with a headdress. Why not?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I would if. If I. Oh, my God, it looks so good.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm gonna describe it. It has, like, seven or eight disco balls. And then off over the first, and then above it come these rays of disco beams and mirrors.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yes, disco beams and mirrors.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're 100% wearing that in the show.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, I don't know if I'm wearing this. I'll wear something.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You could just come out wearing that and then take it off. Cause I would imagine that might be really uncomfortable.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Just come out like that. Doing she Bop. It would be fabulous. But I gotta have, like, a heel. I gotta figure out. I still am working on the costume.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I have. I have faith. I have faith. The costume.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I gotta do research.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you do your research, and then you put your Cindy spin on, and it's gonna be perfect. It's time for another break. More with Cindy after. So, Cindy, one thing that's always impressed me about you is how much creative control you've worked to maintain in your career. I mean, you've really had to push, and I certainly know that that's not easy. And I'm wondering if you could tell us the story of the Goonies theme song and the creative disagreement that you had with Steven Spielberg.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Oh, God. I never spoke right to him. You know, he wanted to do a green screen, and I went to Hollywood to work with a Hollywood director.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And, you know, and. And instead of saying I was hoping to be on a Hollywood set, I came all the way here to work with you on a Hollywood set. And at Green Screen, we do that with mtv and I. But instead I said I was hoping we could do something a little more creative. And of course, you know, and they always have these meetings when you're eating, so everybody spit up the food and looked at me and looked at him, and he got up very indignant. He was very upset with me, but I didn't know how to say it right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, but what's your take? Can you articulate? Well, I think you kind of did, but it really sounds like you wished you had been, I guess, more specific, talking to Stephen about why it was you didn't want to do the green screen, as opposed to just sort of judging it by saying it wasn't creative enough for you that you had been able to.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I didn't mean it as it wasn't creative. That's why I feel bad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I understand.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Because that's not what I really meant.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I just meant that I came all that way and I never really said anything. And now that I'm getting older, I keep thinking, well, why don't you write a letter to so and so, Just so they know, you know, just like, just apologize. Just so they know that's not really what you meant. And now we got hr. So I, you know, I travel with an HR person. I always say, okay, here we are, kids. Now, remember, that's hr. I'm gonna talk to you and talk to you straight. If it's too straight, that's hr.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But, you know. But, you know, that's not a bad idea to write him that note. That's not a bad idea.

[Cyndi Lauper]

No, I will. Before, you know, I got a little busy, but when it came off the road, I was. Think of all these people and how maybe they misunderstood. And, you know, the other thing was that movie Vibes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. You did that movie in 88 with Jeff Goldblum and Peter Falk.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I got to work with Peter Falk. Okay, Columbo. Okay. I worked with him. I couldn't even believe it. I loved that guy. I don't think Vibes was the worst thing. I thought it was cute. It's supposed to be funny. And I thought to myself, you know, it's unfortunate. I didn't know how to take it. It was my turn to get knocked down. And I didn't know how to take that because everything fell apart.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What do you mean?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Because my boyfriend, manager, decided we were going to get married. 8. 8.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

8.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And when the movie came and everybody said bad Vibes and that I. Something was wrong with me. And so he didn't want to get married unless we were marrying on a high note, and I was like, that shouldn't matter, that stuff. So my relationship crumbled. I felt my career crumbled. They let go. They started firing the people that made me famous, that I worked so hard with, with who taught me so much. And those are the people never get credit. Like the people who work with you in the record company. You work 12 hours, they're 12 hours with you, and they never get credit. You're the one that gets credit. But without them, it's a heartbreak. And for me, I just didn't have the stomach for that. And it broke my heart. I couldn't see the people I loved go away. I couldn't see the new guy who was the sexist asshole, come in, run things. I just. It was. It was a tough, tough, tough time. Really tough time for me. I couldn't do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Ugh, yeah, I bet. I mean, that can be just heartbreaking. But then a couple years later, you had a great experience filming off and Running because you met your husband, David Thornton, and you were interested in him. And I read that you sent him notes. And one of the notes has shrimp tails stapled to the note.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, this is what happened. He was the murderer, right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

The thing about David, he had a great sense of humor. And we used to laugh and laugh. And the mermaids. Cause I was a mermaid.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, yeah, you were a mermaid in that movie.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yep. And there were mermaids with me, and. And they loved him, and they wouldn't leave him alone. So he kept coming to me and going, listen, just talk to me. Make believe we're talking about something until she goes away. She's scary. And so, you know, I would talk to him. And then finally I looked at him, I'm thinking to myself, come on, you're Cyndi Lauper. They're beautiful, but you're Cyndi Lauper. You like this guy, you know? So I put a nice dress on, and we went out to dinner and from there, things. But before that, he started writing these notes. Cause, you know, we all joked around a lot. So he'd write just these crazy notes. And then we started writing. I don't know. I had this idea to write a ransom note and staple shrimp tales to it because I was a mermaid, you know, I thought it was funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Got it.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And so the notes started to get nuttier. And then we were with Louis Falco at the time. And one time, Lewis, he read the letter, and I was laughing, and he goes to me, you know, sin, these are love letters. Oh, And I looked at him, I said, really? And he said, yeah. So that's when I put the dress on. I said, well, fuck these mermaids if they think that they could have this guy. And he's a sweet guy. Well, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And then you're off to the races.

[Cyndi Lauper]

But I couldn't call him David for a long time. I had to go to a therapist because the last guy, his name was David. And ever since I was little, I always heard in my head, even when I'm going through rough times as a young singer in cover bands, wait till you meet David. It's gonna be okay. And then when I met David Wolf, I had visions of things. You know, I'm Italian, of course. We live with the dead and everything, right? So, you know, so I had all these vis. And stuff. And then. And, you know, and something happened. You know, we became famous together. And then meeting this guy, and his name was David, it was very confusing because I was like, okay, now what? You're collecting David's. So I went to the therapist and I said, you know, and his name is David, but I keep calling him the murderer. And, you know, I brought him home to meet my mother, and I introduced him as the murderer, not David. And, you know, and we thought it was funny, but, you know, my poor mother, could you imagine? We bring home a guy and I say, yeah, Ma, this is the murderer from the movie.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But listen, wait a minute. Hold on. You just went over something. So when you were little, you had this. What? This vision, this premonition that you were going to be with a man named David.

[Cyndi Lauper]

When I was 20 and 21 and 22, I always kept hearing, wait till you meet David. Don't be discouraged. Wait till you meet David. No way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait. I need to just dig into this minute. Have you had other sort of things like that in your life?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What else, if you don't mind my asking, what else did you know or sense was coming?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, when I was little, I used to stand in front of the shower curtain and take bows. I used to talk like I was doing interviews while I was in the. I would always think like that. I don't know why, but I loved it. And I just, you know, I had visions of things, but I never in my life. Except one time I had a dream when I was a kid and we had my grandmother's garden, which is a project I'll probably want to do soon, about being my grandmother's helper and being in the garden and, you know, chopping all the eggshells and everything to make the bed for her tomatoes. Getting rid of the beetles and the roses. And I had a dream that I looked out this big, beautiful window at her garden, and all the white flowers. All the flowers in her garden were waving to me. And when I was on stage after I had become famous, I was waving, and all the flowers. It looked like the flowers waved back. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm here. I saw this already, you know, So I always had things like that. And I used to get worried sometimes when I would dream about things and then they'd happen. And I used to get very nervous that maybe I was making that happen. And I should have realized before, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Are you an intuitive person? Do you follow your intuition? Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Don't you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, but some people don't listen to it. That's why I ask.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, sometimes you don't. And then you're like, oh, you should have heard.

[Judith Bowles]

What?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Why didn't you listen?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally. Yeah. Okay, but I want to jump around again. So in 2008, Harvey Fierstein approached you to write the music for Kinky Boots, and you had never written a Broadway musical before. So what was the steepest part of that learning curve for you?

[Cyndi Lauper]

I didn't know. I didn't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You didn't know what? You didn't know?

[Cyndi Lauper]

I like Harvey. I wanted to work with Harvey. And I had just finished a dance record, so I figured they just want pop songs. I know how to do that. You know, make a good hook. I don't know. But then he kept telling me what he wanted, and I would have done anything for him. So I did. I did whatever it took.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Was it different than writing a pop song?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, yeah, because I kept saying, what are the rules, Harvey? Tell me the rules so I don't break the rules. He said, sin, there are no rules. So I just said, no rules. So, you know, you get together with this one, you get together with that one, you put together sounds and music, and you try and create different styles of music for the different characters. Yeah, right, because the different characters, everybody, even if you know each other, has a different jam that they sing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right?

[Cyndi Lauper]

And it all has to be a

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

piece of one song.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, no, at one part, it did when everybody say, yeah, Because Jerry said, I want a song where everybody says, yeah. And I was like, okay. So I went out and sing. Everybody say, yeah, yeah. You know, and. And then I was thinking that that's where they come together in the church of shoes. And, you know, I think the best line to this Date I think I ever wrote was you could tell about a fella from his shoes. Because that's a line you can chew and sing at the same time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's also so true, obviously. Did you know you're such a fighter, fundamental fighter, but have you, in your heart, in your life, have you fought feelings of, like, being an imposter? Like, you don't. Have you struggled with confidence?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Confidence, yes. Imposter, no. Because I am who I am, and there's nothing I can do about it. It's kind of like Popeye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I am who I am, like Popeye. But what about when you struggle with confidence? Like, when was a moment, if you

[Cyndi Lauper]

can remember or summon, oh, 2000-2000-2001-2002.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What was the issue?

[Cyndi Lauper]

I wanted to produce my work. I wanted to sing what I wrote. They wanted me to shut up and sing. And I kept thinking to myself, yeah, when I get that lobotomy, I'm going to get right back to you.

[Judith Bowles]

I.

[Cyndi Lauper]

But, you know, I couldn't. I'm not that kind of singer. I can't just stand there, sing, and anything could happen behind me, and it doesn't matter.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But it sounds like. But wait a minute. You're describing to me what sounds like feeling very confident. You had the balls to say, when I get. Or to think, but I had to

[Cyndi Lauper]

eat a lot of shit. Like, I had to, like, do interviews where people would ask me, well, you're not on the top anymore, are you? You know, or things like that. And I would say, while I was choking back tears, I would say, if this is the path I have to take to go where I'm going, then this is the path. And if I have to chop down the path myself, my own path, then that's what this is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You are on such a creative path. You are all about the act of creating. This is what it's. This is my takeaway. You tell me if I'm wrong. That's your path. You are looking for a creative expression, and that's period, full stop.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, you know, listen to me. When you standing in the right place at the right time, singing the right thing, wearing the right thing, breathing the air at the right time, something happens and it's otherworldly, and that is the door I keep banging on. Because it is heaven. You know, it really is heaven. Your body's vibrating, your. The color, the sound. What you're saying is important. Not just some shite, not just like, dee dee, dee, dee dee. It's important. Even girls just want to have Fun. I always laugh to myself when all of the lug heads just not everybody was like that. But on the outside, there was a lot of lugheads who just went with it, thinking it was frivolous and da da da, da, da, da da. But it wasn't. They were taking the revolution into their homes, to their children, to their little girls who actually heard me. And I didn't even acknowledge that until the march, the pussy march. And there were young women with signs that said, girls just want to have fundamental rights. And I started crying. I was like, really? You heard me. I got in so much trouble from everybody for saying the truth, right? And then I went back to the same people I had started the True Color stuff with and said, listen, they heard me. I have to hear them. Let's hear them. Let's help. Let's do something.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you had the True Colors foundation. And now your focus is the Girls Just Want to have Fundamental Rights Fund. Cindy, can you just tell the listeners what the focus of that work is?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, we fund organizations with their boots on the ground, the ones that are really doing the work. And that's what we do. And in March, we'll list everything, all the organizations this year that we donated to. And we added things like domestic violence organization, sanitary napkins for the poor, women who don't have reproduction rights, of course, and health, you know, women's health, they need health. Immigration. That sale of my clothes went to Minneapolis.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really? How great is that?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah, well, you could do things like that. And what the hell, you're not wearing them clothes, so why not just lose it? And also you feel lighter. I used to think it was just hard work. But you have to put the hard work in. You have to. And you have to be strong. And you know, when I married my husband and got to like now, I always thought, he's funny, he makes me laugh, he's really funny. But he also taught me this thing. Always find the person in the room that nobody's talking to and go over to them and talk to them. Because that's what you can do to change the atmosphere to make it better.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's a kind idea. Yeah, I like that.

[Cyndi Lauper]

And it works and it's great. And it is kind. Cause you could always be the odd man out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally. So you and David have been married a really long time. And I'm also in a very long term marriage. And I'm wondering how you've been able to maintain this marriage all these years. I mean, how has that worked for you?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, we hardly saw each other. I was always on tour, and every time I come back, hey, there you are. No, I'm kidding. But no, for him. Like, we're now doing this animated short together. And I like to do indie things because they're more fun. I don't do good with the suits. I'm not a suit person.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you don't strike. I don't get suit vibes from you.

[Cyndi Lauper]

No. I wish I was. I wish I had a little. A little bit of, you know, diplomacy. You know, say the right thing in the right way. You know, I even took. And sometimes I probably go back. It's kind of like leadership therapy courses. And you gotta, like, learn the right way to approach that personality. And that takes work.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I mean, and that has never been my strong point. So I'm trying to learn that. And that will help to do what you. Because you know what? You can't do anything big by yourself. No, you can't. No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It takes teamwork. It takes teamwork.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I mean, unless you're Prince. Right? That guy was a freaking genius. God bless him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

God bless him is right. Okay, Cindy, I want to end this incredible conversation with a couple of quick questions. Is there something that you are looking forward to?

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, we're doing this leaf thing, which is a story that David wrote. He's a really. See, that's the other thing about David.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Your husband.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Yeah. He's wildly creative. I mean, wildly. He's always thinking this and that. And so it's about a leaf that wants to fly instead of falling. And it's a 25 minute short. And it's actually really sweet. And I get to do the music, which I love, because it's so sweet. It's music. You know, it's interesting to work with him because he directed me. I also do a voice, and he directed me. And when you're directed by somebody who's an actor, it's different.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it is different.

[Cyndi Lauper]

It's like he's my best acting teacher ever. Ever.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Of course. Yeah, I get that completely. I love the concept of a leaf that wanted to fly and not fall. I just think that's divine. I hope that comes together perfectly. It sounds yummy.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Well, it's coming.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's coming.

[Cyndi Lauper]

It's coming. But, you know, animation is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, it takes forever. Believe me. I'm involved with a couple animation projects right now. It takes forever. It's a different skill set just to do voiceover work. It's really different. I mean, at least it has been for me, because you can't rely on your body. You just have to rely on your voice to get the whole story across. And it's interesting how much you can do. I'm saying to Cyndi Lauper, but in fact, it is interesting what you can do.

[Cyndi Lauper]

No, of course.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's really interesting. Is there anything you want me to know about aging? Not that we're that far apart in age. I got news for you.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Let me tell you something. I was looking in the mirror. I'm going, okay, I could fix that. You know, I'm going to try for the maj first. I'm going to do that other painful thing. But guess what? My face and my body is part of my business suit. And my presentation is art form. And I want to look good. I don't want to look wind blown. Trust me, I've had things done already, right? And I kept saying, listen, I don't want to look wind blown. You got me here. I don't want a permanent smile and looking very surprised in a forehead that looks like I'm going to like. But I take care of myself because if I want to do a good job, I got to look good. I want to look good. I want to look a certain way, and, you know, I want to look like me. Just not so tired, probably, you know? And what's wrong with that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm going to tell you something. I'm looking at you right now. You're just wearing lipstick. I think you look exquisite.

[Cyndi Lauper]

So do you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, thanks. That's kind of you. Okay. Is there. Is there something you would go back and tell yourself at 21? I mean, if you could.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I don't know. I always felt like I had a guardian angel helping me all the time. And no matter what, even when I was, you know, walking the streets going, oh, no, I might never sing again. But even with all of that, there was. Well, I come from a long line of women who survive who they survive. And what I learned from them actually was you endure. I lived through every bad thing and every good thing. And I think that I was determined to take this path. I feel that God gave me God who knows someone. Yeah, you can change the world if you change your mind. And that's something that Harvey taught me. And I think for me, I was just enduring. And, you know, I had a fortune cookie the other day. Me and David were laughing, you know, because it was Chinese New Year's and we want to get Chinese food. And of course, I ordered from the worst place. It was greasy. It was bad. It wasn't even tasting like Chinese food. Then we ordered from another place and it was good. And they had fortune cookies. So we opened it and it's mine. Said besides learn Chinese and here's your lucky numbers. It said it'll be okay in the end. If it isn't, it's not the end.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh,

[Cyndi Lauper]

so you know those fortune cookies, you never know. Some of them are pretty good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that's a good one. I've never gotten one that good. That's pretty fantastic. I can't thank you enough for spending so much time with us today. You are.

[Cyndi Lauper]

I think I did. That was mostly the longer this story.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, well, that was an extraordinary experience. Okay, let's get my mom on the line. There's so much to talk about with her. Hello.

[Judith Bowles]

Hello, Lolo.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm glad to see you. We just talked with Cyndi Lauper for a very long time and it was. Was really rather astonishing.

[Cyndi Lauper]

How old?

[Judith Bowles]

She's in her 70s now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. She's 72. She's about to be 73. And it's like she's got a pipeline to which side of your brain is the creative side? Is the right or the left?

[Judith Bowles]

Well, the right side most people say. But you know, who knows? Okay, right side. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. So it's like there's a funnel going from the right side of her brain out into the world. She's an incredibly creative person. That is just like how she operates. It's really quite extraordinary. And she had a couple of,

[Cyndi Lauper]

what

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

do we think, what are they called, Psychic things happen to her in her life which were kind of amazing. Have you ever had any like psychic anything mom happen to you or premonitions or anything?

[Judith Bowles]

There are things I said when I was small that I just remember. How did I know that? But it wasn't a premonition. I mean, I was sure I was going to die before I was 16. And so when I got to be 16, I thought, boy, I guess I can live forever. And that may be true, but not a premonition. I never had any premonitions. You did. You have.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I did. I had that one. You're talking about that friend of mine from elementary school, right?

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I had a dream in which we were seeing each other after summer break and we were back at school and I felt so guilty because we hadn't had any play dates or played together over the summer. And I said, oh, how are you? And she said, well, my mother died and I woke up with a start and I came in to your room and woke you up to tell you to have this nightmare about my friend's mother. And then a couple weeks later, we found out that it had actually happened and it was very out of the blue.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So a sad, sad story.

[Judith Bowles]

It was. But I do believe that there are. There are sort of lines between us, you know, that not always have language or have. But I agree. The connections, I think, are much more than just being in the same territory. I think that there's a connection. I think that mental energy is incredibly important and strong. And I think, especially when our need is great and. Or when something is happening that disturbs the universe, I think that we oftentimes have a sense of. Of that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah, I do, too. I believe in that stuff. You have to take it serious. You have to listen to it.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Without driving yourself bananas.

[Judith Bowles]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Cyndi Lauper]

Anyway.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, golly. Okay. Well.

[Judith Bowles]

Well, the spring is. Spring is coming.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Spring is coming.

[Judith Bowles]

I've got some daffodils that are just about that tall right under the freezing snow that we've had. And the snow melted and they look like they are just. Just have had nothing but sun for six months.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No way. Really? Yeah. Oh, how nice.

[Judith Bowles]

So it's going to be a crowd of daffodils. It's going to be wonderful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Then my heart with pleasure fills and dances with the daffodils. William Wordsworth for our listeners.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's a goodie.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah. Thank you, honey. Thank you. That's so good. I love we ending with a poem. That's perfect.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's perfect.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. My mummy, I love you.

[Judith Bowles]

I love you, too. So be sprightly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. You do the same.

[Judith Bowles]

Okay. Much love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye.

[Judith Bowles]

Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium, you can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com. make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on social media substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.