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- [00:01]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Hi there, it's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We're ready to bring you even more wisdom from the magnificent old women I have had the pleasure of talking to this season. And get a load of this. We've added some fun new items to our Wiser Than Me merch collection. Along with our classic tote bag and kitchen tea towel. We're introducing a new Wiser Than Me branded hardcover notebook and an exclusive partnership with Lingua Franca, a New York City based luxury and sustainable clothing brand. You gotta check out the gorgeous hand embroidered sweatshirts, cashmere sweaters for you and your dog with Wiser than Me phrases. Yeah, cashmere for your dog. I did say that. Browse the whole collection and start shopping today by visiting wiserthanmeeshop.com Lemonader maybe thanks to Wiser Than Me I've been thinking a lot lately about what it means to be a woman, which is what I am and am so happy to be. I know that every individual's journey with womanhood is unique, and I recognize that my experience might not align with everybody else's who identifies as a woman, but I cherish the aspects of femininity that resonate with me. I mean, I just love being feminine, being a feminine person. I loved carrying and birthing children. I love physically being a woman, which is why it was it was so hard to have breast cancer. Or it's one of the many reasons it was hard to have breast cancer because it took part of that away from me. But anyway, I think the thing that I really love most about being a woman is the kind of emotional intelligence that comes with it. I think it's a big part of what they call female intuition. There's a reason that it's not called male intuition. I believe in female intuition and I believe I have it. And so do my fabulous sisters. FYI, at critical moments in my life, I've had this intuition, this feeling of knowing something without any conscious reasoning and knowing it with certainty. A kind of certainty that surpasses intellectual reasoning or fact gathering or weighing of evidence. And I trust that intuition because frankly, it's never been wrong that I can think of. And I can feel that with other women. And I love it. I have two groups of really close female friends, one group of friends from grade school and another from college that includes Paula Jean Kaplan, the beauty and the brain who produces this show with me, and a third sort of looser group of more recent friends. I call them my Work friends, even though they're not all from work. And by more recent, I mean, like 25 years ago instead of 40 years or 50 years ago. And all of these women are unbelievably important to me, Critically important. Don't get me wrong, I like my men. Men are great. They talk too much, of course, but they're great. But when I get together with these women, I am at ease. I don't know how else to say it. Just completely at ease. I mean, sure, it helps that we have decades of shared history and common interests and tastes and politics and values and a shared sense of hum humor, but I think there's something more. More. I don't know what ancient, more transcendent about the bond that I feel with them. It is profound, and for me, it's a very important part of having a happy life. And it goes back to that emotional intelligence. These women are emotionally smart. Like, when I was really sick, my friend Carlene would come over. All of them would come, to tell you the truth, which is just such an incredible gift that I can never thank any of them enough for. But I remember particularly Carlene coming when I was sick as a dog sick, and she would just sit there in my bedroom, you know, and she didn't have to say anything, and I didn't have to say anything. And I could be so relaxed about that and sometimes not even respond if she did say something and she got it. And we would just be there, you know, occupying space together. Or even when I was in chemotherapy and I was hooked up to all these poisons, and I had a huge cold cap on my head. The cold cap is something you can do to keep you from losing hair during chemo. And all of my girlfriends would come to my chemo, and I'm telling you, it was this tiny little space. And like, eight women would squeeze into this space, and they would bring food and they would be chatting, and Carleen made everybody who came wear a mustache. She brought these fake mustaches for everybody to wear. That was sort of part of the uniform. And everybody looked ridiculous. And it was just so hilarious. I was sort of slipping in and out of. Because, you know, you're on drugs and stuff. So I was sort of slipping in and out of kind of consciousness being there. And I would look, and all my girlfriends would be howling, laughing in mustaches. It would just. None of it made sense. All of it was beautiful, you know, and that might not be unique to female friendship. I mean, obviously, loyalty isn't gender based. It just speaks to the depth of tranquility that I feel with my female friends. And Carlene's, you know, she's like a hotshot lawyer. They're all hot shots, these women. These are all very accomplished people. But there's no sense of that success being definitional when we get together, if you know what I mean. Every time we gather, no matter the occasion, I know that the conversations will be completely interesting to me. You know, I want to hear everybody's thoughts. Nothing will be off the table as far as intimate conversation. Nothing. And we'll laugh our asses off. The kind of laughing that, you know, that hurts the next day. Right. Oh, my God. You can't put a price on that. I mean, that is. Well, that is just living. Living good. There's a spectacular book that my friends Yoji and Janice gave us. It's by Myra Kalman, and it's called Women Holding Things. It's an extraordinary book of her illustrations and writing, and it's just what the title describes. It's drawings of women holding things. And here's what she says. What do women hold? The home and the family and the children and the food, the friendships, the work, the work of the world and the work of being human. The memories and the troubles and the sorrows and the triumphs and the love. How true is that? That's what women hold. And I think that that is maybe at the heart of why I love my female friends so. And I need to connect with them often to reple my strength and my spirit. It's because we women are holding things, real, substantial things with physical weight and ethereal things, too, which have so much weight as well. So when I get together with my female friends, I think we put those things down just for the moment. You know, maybe we laugh, maybe we have a glass of wine or two, and if we need to, we ask each other for a little help with the load when we pick those things back up. And only another woman can fully understand that. Oh, how wonderful, then, that. Today's conversation is with Gloria Steinem. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. You know how there are songs like, I don't know, blowing in the Wind that are so ingrained in the culture, you can't believe somebody actually sat down and wrote it? Well, I feel like today's guest is kind of the human version of that. She is so ingrained in the culture, you kind of forget that she's an actual, real person. She's much more than a leader. She's really an architect of the feminist movement. I mean, if the feminist movement had a Mount Rushmore, for example, and it ought to, she would be up there. That's how monumental her legacy is. She has been at the center of every conversation about the place of women in society since the early 60s. She founded the National Women's Political Caucus with Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, and Shirley Chisholm. And then in 1968, she was there in the nascent stages of New York magazine. And then with all that experience, she went on to Co found Ms. Magazine in 1972. I mean, I don't know if young people today truly realize how important that magazine was in shaping feminist conversations and platforming women's work. Critical. But she didn't stop there. In fact, she's still at it. This woman who has been the most enduring symbol of feminism knows that the work is far from done. When she turned 80, her friend and fellow activist Robin Morgan told the New York Times that she is more effective than ever. She's a better organizer now than she ever has been. She's a better persuader. She's a better writer. She jokes about turning her funeral into a fundraiser and continues to utilize every tool at her disposal because she understands activism is a job from which you never truly retire. When you're on the front lines of a movement for all those years, you pick up a couple of accolades along the way. She's the recipient of a Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Barack Obama, the Freedom Award from the National National Civil Rights Museum, the National Magazine Award, the Lifetime Achievement in Journalism Award from the United nations, and oh, yeah, she's written 19 books. That's barely scratching the surface of the impact she has had. When someone asked her what her greatest contribution was to the women's movement, she said, I haven't made it yet. Those are the words of a woman on a mission, a woman at whose feet I sit today and who is so much wiser than me. Gloria Steinem. Hi, Gloria.
- [10:46]
Gloria Steinem
Now, you've left me with the quandary of how I can possibly live up to that introduction. I mean, we should have a technological failure. Anyway, thank you, and it's lovely to see you.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
It's lovely. It's an honor. May I ask your real age, Gloria?
- [11:05]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, my real age is 90. I'm as shocked as anybody else. I don't know exactly how it happened, but I would just like to say that you're always the same person inside so it goes right up.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
I love that. I love it. And how old do you feel?
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Gloria Steinem
I think we have an age when we kind of gelled. You know what I mean?
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
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Gloria Steinem
And I would say mine was 50.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
I love that you feel 50. By the way, I need to mention to you that you. To me, this is very significant. You and my mother share the same birthday and share the same age.
- [11:41]
Gloria Steinem
Really? Oh, that's amazing.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, it's amazing to me. And you're both from Ohio, which I also love.
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Gloria Steinem
Ah. And we survived. I survived Toledo. I don't know.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes, and she survived Columbus and is here to tell the tale.
- [11:55]
Gloria Steinem
Okay, well, give her a hug from me.
- [11:56]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I absolutely will have to. I absolutely will compare notes.
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Gloria Steinem
Yes.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Do you exercise, Gloria? Do you have a routine? An exercise routine?
- [12:04]
Gloria Steinem
I don't. I didn't grow up with an exercise routine. I'm not part of the generation that runs every morning. I have a wonderful woman who's a former Rockette who drops by twice a week and makes me exercise a bit, which is fun.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
So as you've gotten older, has your thinking ability changed? Have you noticed changes? It doesn't seem as if there are any.
- [12:33]
Gloria Steinem
No, no, I think I have noticed changes which has caused me to, for instance, consider manufacturing a T shirt that says, I'm at an age when remembering something right away is as good as an orgasm.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
I think.
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Gloria Steinem
I think this would sell.
- [12:55]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, it would definitely sell.
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Gloria Steinem
I mean, the retrieval time is longer or the need for association with something else, I think. You know, I think memory does. Cause there's just more quantity for one thing. Of things to remember.
- [13:15]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah. Gosh, that's a hilarious idea for a T shirt. And we may have to fabricate that. So I want to read Gloria a poem that you've written that is in one of your books. The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off is the title of the book. And I would like to read this poem that you wrote. Dear Goddess, I pray for the courage to walk naked at any age, to wear red and purple, to be unladylike, inappropriate, scandalous, and incorrect to the very end. So let's talk about the blessings of aging. I mean, have you been able to live up to the expectations of that absolutely glorious poem that you wrote?
- [14:04]
Gloria Steinem
No, I'm sure I haven't. I'm sure I've been too pressured by the way things are already being done to envision how they might be done. But I think, especially because we still live with patriarchy and racism and, you know, various Structures that make no sense. It's good for us to imagine the most we can possibly imagine. So we move the boundaries of where we can go. And I think that was my effort, one of my efforts to move the boundaries.
- [14:37]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well, let me ask you this. In what ways do you think you have gotten better over the years? I mean, I know in your mind you say, you think of yourself sort of, you feel 50. What has age given you? What have the blessings of getting older given to you?
- [14:53]
Gloria Steinem
One big thing is that I'm past the age of expectation that we should follow a certain pattern, which in my generation was very strong, that we should marry, we should have chose. We should take our husband's name and his identity. You know, we should, in a way, lead a secondary life. And that was very much the norm, or at least the norm of expectations when I was growing up in Toledo in a factory working neighborhood where families were supported by their husband's salary in the factory and people generally got married very young.
- [15:31]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [15:32]
Gloria Steinem
So, I mean, I always knew, thanks to my mother having saved money, that I would be able to go to college, which already was a blessing beyond almost everybody in my high school class. But I had no idea. I mean, I got engaged when I was a senior in college because everybody got engaged. And this was a very lovely, handsome, desirable guy.
- [16:00]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [16:01]
Gloria Steinem
And partly I went to India, took a fellowship and went to India and stayed there for two years because both I was fascinated with India, but also I was trying to lead a different life, and I wasn't sure that I would be able to if I stayed home.
- [16:20]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Was that a way of getting out of the engagement, by the way?
- [16:23]
Gloria Steinem
Yes. I sort of left my ring under the pillow and disappeared. Yes. Right, right.
- [16:30]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
And your travels in India, I know you talk. I mean, it sounds like your activism began there, is that right?
- [16:37]
Gloria Steinem
Well, I certainly saw for the first time in my life the results of the grassroots populist movement because of the independence movement against the British and Mahatma Gandhi and everything. And I was writing a essay about Gandhi, so I going around and interviewing people he had worked with. And finally I got to a woman named Kamala Devi Chattopadya, a great woman. And she was sitting on her porch, rocking and drinking lemonade. She listened to me, and finally she said, well, my dear, we taught him everything he knew. No. And it turned out that the basis of Gandhi's independence movement was a national women's movement which already existed.
- [17:29]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Wow. So there it began.
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Gloria Steinem
Yes. I began to understand that history was not always told in an accurate way, you know?
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well, it's told through a male lens, isn't it?
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Gloria Steinem
Yeah. Well, in a cultural lens, it's good to think of history with a certain critical sense because it tended to be written by the winners and not necessarily the whole truth.
- [17:55]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right. This seems very kind of trite and lightweight on the heels of this conversation thus far, but I have to ask you, I want to talk about beauty for a second, because beauty and power are so interlocked with one another in a way that is probably quite, well, negative. What. As you have gotten older, what have you had to unlearn or unbrainwash yourself if you've had to, in terms of beauty as a woman because you're a beautiful woman? I'm curious about that.
- [18:34]
Gloria Steinem
I don't think I was brainwashed into plastic surgery because I'm a coward. I still have my tonsils. I didn't want to have any kind of surgical procedure, so I just didn't. I probably have more gray hair underneath here than you can see, right? That's one artificiality, probably.
- [18:57]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [18:58]
Gloria Steinem
But otherwise, you know, I might still be wearing the same blue jeans right now that I don't know how many years.
- [19:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Blue jeans, that's the holy grail. If you find a good pair of blue jeans and they really work, hang on to them.
- [19:12]
Gloria Steinem
Yes.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
I actually had a question about the glasses and your look back in the day. Was this a choice, Gloria, putting your glasses over your hair. Was that a sort of fashion statement for you that you found, or. Because I also think you talked about hiding behind your glasses and hair because it was very iconic, that look.
- [19:35]
Gloria Steinem
Obviously, coming from a nearsighted family, I had needed glasses since I was about 10, and somehow I preferred the kind of pilot's glasses, which were then men's glasses. You know, you had to go to the men's section to find them.
- [19:53]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, the aviator kind. Yeah.
- [19:55]
Gloria Steinem
Yeah. Right. And, you know, they were good for both sight and hiding behind. Yes.
- [20:02]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
But I get the sense that you don't feel like you need to hide behind anything now. Is that true?
- [20:08]
Gloria Steinem
No. Well, I mean, I didn't then.
- [20:10]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [20:11]
Gloria Steinem
I just think that age is a blessing. I mean, we're adding experience, we're discovering new things. It's not a drawback, but because the emphasis on women's age is still very much connected to reproduction and the years in which women can reproduce, it's still different for women than for men.
- [20:33]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It sure is. And would you have any specific advice to women for aging without shame?
- [20:41]
Gloria Steinem
Well, I don't know that My advice is helpful, but I think one thing is to be together with women who are your age and older so that you have an example and a counterweight to the media image of women who were always younger, more beautiful, usually more white, and, you know, just not realistic.
- [21:07]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, community, community, community and connection.
- [21:12]
Gloria Steinem
Right?
- [21:15]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
We'll get more wisdom from Gloria Steinem after this break. This show is sponsored by Macy's Thanksgiving morning wouldn't be complete without the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. This year marks the 96 6th annual parade live from New York City. There's something so special about waking up to those huge colorful balloons making their way through the city streets. It's like a little bit of magic filling up your living room. And it's the perfect start to the holiday before all the cooking and festivities get underway. This year's parade is even more exciting with Minnie Mouse making her debut as a brand new balloon floating down the streets of New York alongside all the other iconic characters. And it's not just about the balloons and floats. There are incredible Broadway performances, marching bands from across the country, and of course Santa himself. Closing it out to kick off the holiday season. So grab your family, cozy up and make the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade part of your Thanksgiving tradition. To learn more about the parade and what's in store this year, visit Macy's.com parade this holiday season is right around the corner, so you're probably starting to think about gifts. We found the perfect one O's limited edition Super Glow Body set. It's a must have for everyone on your list, even those who are tough to shop for. This set includes three of OIA's best selling body care products, all packaged in a stunning box that's so beautiful you can skip the wrapping. It's gifting made easy and you can save 32% on the set at oseamalibu.com plus an additional 10% off with code WISER. Inside you'll find Osea's full size Undaria Algae body oil rich in antioxidants to soften, nourish and firm your skin. There's also their brand new Undaria Algae body wash which cleanses and revitalizes and a travel size hyaluronic body serum that keeps your skin hydrated for a full 24 hours. And it's the perfect way to try out some of OA's best products at an incredible value. It's so luxurious you might want to grab one for yourself too. But don't wait. This set is limited edition and once it's gone. It's gone. Give the gift of glow this holiday season with clean, clinically tested skin care from osea. And right now we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your first order. Site wide with code wiser@o malibu.com when the weather turns cooler, it's time to embrace everything cozy. And Quince has just what you need. From luxurious cashmere to soft loungewear, Quince offers high quality essentials at prices that will shock you. The quince 100% merino wool scarf coat checks all the boxes. Soft, warm and so stylish you'll wonder how you ever live without it. The attached scarf and delicate embroidery gives it a bespoke artisanal feel, while the oversized fit gives warmth and comfort. You can really wrap up in. It's the perfect fall staple item for everything you're doing, whether that's the farmer's market, brunch with friends or just walking the dog. And where else can you get 100% merino wool for these prices? Here's the best part. Quince cuts out the middleman and works directly with the best factory. So you can get a gorgeous, high quality wardrobe for a fraction of what you'd pay elsewhere. No markups, no gimmicks, just pure timeless comfort that doesn't break the bank. Get cozy in Quince's high quality wardrobe essentials. Go to quince.com wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com wiser to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser Speaking of reproduction, you've said, of course, that the desire to control wombs is central to all authoritarian systems. So having said that, let's talk about this Dobbs decision. This fucking Dobbs decision. Did you see that coming, Gloria? I mean, what do we miss? How are you feeling?
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Gloria Steinem
Well, you know, I think that reproductive freedom should be as basic as freedom of speech. Yeah, but because we are living in various forms, forms of patriarchy, there is a continuing, though hopefully diminishing effort to control women as the means of reproduction. I mean, when Hitler, you should pardon the expression, Hitler was elected and he was elected. The first thing he did the next morning was to order the padlocking of all the family planning clinics in Germany.
- [26:13]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Get out of here. I didn't know that.
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Gloria Steinem
And declare abortion a crime against the state. And the same was true in Italy. Authoritarian fascist movements have been especially obvious in their desire compulsion with controlling reproduction. Whether for racist reasons or sheer patriarchal reasons or both.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
So when the Dobbs decision came down, because obviously Roe v. Wade came into law in 1973, so. So 50 years later, it's reversed. How do you react to that? Are you not surprised, Gloria?
- [26:50]
Gloria Steinem
Well, I guess the hopeful part of me is alarmed. The realistic part of me is not surprised, because the attempt to control women's bodies as the most basic means of production, the means of reproduction, has been consistent. And the reverse is also true. That is when Europeans first arrived here and the women, say, in upstate New York, the European American women were inspired by the Native American women they lived next door to, who understood fully how to control reproduction, how to decide when and whether to have children. And that was an inspiration to the women next door. I mean, I wore. I once sat in a small gathering with women in Africa in a desert area, and they were showing me the herbs, literally, that grew there that they used to increase fertility, that they used for abortifacients. I mean, this is ancient knowledge. It's been around as long as people have been around. But to understand how much that the control of reproduction is intertwined with racism is very important.
- [28:16]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, right.
- [28:17]
Gloria Steinem
And the ultra right wing folks who say, you will not replace us are very aware that the first generation of babies who are majority babies of color has already been born. You know, it seems to me a good thing. I mean, if this country looks more like the rest of the world, of course you probably have better relationships with other nations, better food, I don't know. But if you've been raised as a white supremacist, you may feel threatened by the fact that the first generation that's majority babies of color has already been born.
- [29:00]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, I mean, makes sense. They're fearful of a shift in the power dynamic. When did you first realize that you had power, Gloria? When have you felt the most powerful in your life?
- [29:13]
Gloria Steinem
Well, I don't think I have ever felt that I had power in the sense of giving a command, because I've never been in that kind of situation. But I hope that as a writer and an activist or a speaker, I have the power of persuasion, because that still honors the decision making power of the person who's reading or listening to you.
- [29:40]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right, exactly.
- [29:40]
Gloria Steinem
It doesn't deprive them of power, but it means that you can present an alternative.
- [29:46]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes. You know, it's funny because I was thinking about how even in my own life, the patriarchal culture that we live in has sort of crept into my own life in a way that I almost didn't really realize until I was sort of living it. For example, I'm married and I have two children, two sons, who I hope to Jesus I've raised to be good feminists. I think that I have. I'm going to ask them that question later. I'm going to ask them if they think of themselves as feminists. I would be curious to know what their answer would be. But anyway, I'm musing, but I worked. When they were both born, I was working full time. And that was a huge struggle for me. Me. That was a hard thing for me to reconcile, the going back and forth. And I had to intellectually remind myself that working, being a mother who worked outside of the house was good for them to witness. But it was a struggle for me. And I have the benefit of, you know, learning from you and learning from the movement. And yet that struggle existed for.
- [30:58]
Gloria Steinem
Well, because the reason we need a movement is we are still living in a somewhat patriarchal and racist society. So the suppositions of what we should do are still with us, and they were still with you. But actually, for your sons to see and experience a loving, authoritative, nurturing, achieving human being who's a female human being is a gift. And they're much more likely, if they happen to choose a female partner, to choose a female partner who really is a partner.
- [31:42]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah. I wish I had called you 30 years ago to talk about this. I wish we had been friends back then.
- [31:51]
Gloria Steinem
Well, but what do your sons say? I mean, they don't. I bet they don't say, oh, I wish I'd have a mother who stayed home and baked cookies all the time.
- [32:00]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
No, No, I don't think so. I've never heard them say that unless they say it behind my back. But they're more intelligent than that. I know you've spoken about being with many people in your life as they've passed away. And I know that you were unable to be with your dad, which was a regret for you when he passed away. I would like to talk about grief and your experience with grief. What have you learned about grief as you've lost people who are dear to you?
- [32:30]
Gloria Steinem
Well, I've learned that it's inevitable. And in a way, it's precious because it's a measure of how important and loved those individuals were, whether it's Bella Abzug, who. I remember speaking at her funeral and suddenly realizing that I was never to see her again, which, you know, it just. I don't. You know, they're just moments when it comes over you.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
It hits you like a ton of birds. Yeah.
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Gloria Steinem
I think about my mother and regret that she wasn't able to do what she loved, because before I was born, she had been a journalist and worked for a newspaper, which she loved and had to give it up. It's a reminder of how important it is to live in the present.
- [33:24]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right. Well, in these moments, when you lost Bella, or, I know, when your husband, David Bale, passed away, were there activities or rituals that you took on that gave you solace or comfort?
- [33:36]
Gloria Steinem
Yes. I don't know. I mean, probably we may all find different ways, but I remember sitting here in the house where I am now, writing a letter to David Bale, who.
- [33:49]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, right.
- [33:51]
Gloria Steinem
Because after he was gone, and I don't know why I did that exactly, but it just felt helpful to say things I wanted to say or hadn't been able to say. I mean, obviously, I was doing it for myself, clearly.
- [34:09]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, of course.
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Gloria Steinem
But I don't know if it would be helpful to other people or not, you know, just to sit down and write a letter.
- [34:17]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, well, that's fascinating to me, actually, to write a letter. It reminds. When my father passed, I had a moment in which I was by myself and I sat down and I just spoke to him. And I think I. I think I spoke for, like, easily an hour. I had a lot to say, but it's. It stayed with me, you know?
- [34:39]
Gloria Steinem
No, it's important because there must be some sense of both continuity and feeling unfinished and continuing, a connection inside you. It's. It's helpful.
- [34:54]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It's helpful. And so in your letter to David Bell, were you talking about things that were unsaid or that you felt needed saying or reiterated or. All of the above?
- [35:07]
Gloria Steinem
That's interesting. I'm not sure. I mean, I think I was speaking partly to what he wanted to continue and hadn't been able to, also to his childhood, which had been a bit isolated in England, where he grew up, and in South Africa. But it was a way of continuing a connection, just in case, you know? Just in case.
- [35:33]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [35:35]
Gloria Steinem
We can still be heard.
- [35:38]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I know my mother has said before that when someone who's close to you passes away in your life, it's not that the relationship ends, it's just that it changes.
- [35:48]
Gloria Steinem
Changes, yeah. Right, exactly.
- [35:50]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
And that's a. I find it to be a very comforting way to think about loss. It somehow cuts the loss in half because the. You can envision that the relationship is still there, it's just altered. Right.
- [36:06]
Gloria Steinem
And sometimes you can be helped by the relationship that's gone by saying to yourself, as I used to say to myself, what would Bella do in a certain situation?
- [36:18]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, right.
- [36:18]
Gloria Steinem
And it helps you to see alternatives.
- [36:21]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, exactly. So I know you had said that you wanted. That you wanted to make your funeral a fundraiser, which, by the way, I think is a grand idea. Is that actually part of it is. I mean, what the hell? Is that part of your plan? Do you have a plan?
- [36:38]
Gloria Steinem
No, I don't have a plan. It'll be up to whoever is around.
- [36:42]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Who'S ever in charge, whatever. Yeah, okay.
- [36:44]
Gloria Steinem
Right. No, it was. I don't think I want to demand money from people in the end.
- [36:51]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right, Yeah, I get it. But, you know, I'd pay. I'd pay if the funeral was a fundraiser for something that was critical for you. I would absolutely give money.
- [37:01]
Gloria Steinem
Just fundraiser. Also, maybe our funeral should be dances. That would be kind of great.
- [37:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
A dance. A blowout party. Right, right.
- [37:09]
Gloria Steinem
That is the principle of the Irish wake, isn't it?
- [37:13]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes, it is. Kind of.
- [37:14]
Gloria Steinem
Have a party. Right.
- [37:16]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
A big party, which I'm in favor of. You're a tap dancer, Gloria, I understand.
- [37:21]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, I am. Yes. I still have my tap shoes upstairs.
- [37:25]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Do you still tap?
- [37:26]
Gloria Steinem
No, I haven't in a long time, but.
- [37:29]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
You haven't.
- [37:29]
Gloria Steinem
But I could. I could.
- [37:34]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
We're going to take a short break right now. There's more with Gloria Steinem on the other side. You know, one of the things no one tells you about being an adult is how complicated saving and investing can feel. Deal. Suddenly you're supposed to know how the stock market works. Yeah. Forget it. No, thanks. We don't teach basic investing skills in schools, and we expect everyone to be able to figure it out on their own. That's why Acorns was introduced. Today's episode is sponsored by acorns. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing for your future. You don't need a lot of money or expertise to invest with acorns. In fact, you can get started with just your spare change. Acorns recommends an expert built portfolio that fits you and money goals, then automatically invest your money for you. No spreadsheets, no digging around for stock tips, just smart, automatic investing while you live your life. So if you've ever thought I should really start saving for the future. But after this next episode, Acorns is for you. Their mission of making investing accessible has resonated with so many people who previously thought getting smart with money just wasn't for them. Head to acorns.com wiser or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.com wiser we all have fitness goals, but it's another thing to stick to them until we see progress. Peloton makes it easy to keep up with your goals no matter where you are or how your schedule looks. With a huge variety of classes, Peloton fits every stage and every moment. Whether you're welcoming a new chapter or just carving out a few moments for yourself. Whatever era you're in, holiday hustle, running season, or a new wellness journey, Peloton is ready. With the workouts and encouragement to keep you going. You can try barre, Pilates, yoga, running, meditation and so much more to discover what energizes you. Each class type is there to help you stay motivated and keep moving. Need flexibility? Peloton's All Access membership means you can work out at home on your bike, tread or row, or log into the app to squeeze in a workout wherever you happen to be, whether you're at a park, in a hotel, or even cheering on your kids from the sidelines. And if you're balancing a packed schedule, Peloton has you covered. Classes come in all lengths. Whether you have just 10 minutes or you're ready to dive into a 45 minute session, there's always something ready, on demand or live, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power with peloton@onepeleton.com as the temperatures continue to drop, there's nothing better than slipping into soft, luxurious sheets that make your bed the coziest place on earth. That's exactly what Cozy Earth delivers with their best selling Bamboo sheet set sheets designed to transform your sleep and make every night feel like a retreat. Made from 100% premium viscose from bamboo, these sheets offer unmatched breathability, keeping you several degrees cooler through the night. No more tossing and turning from overheating, just cool, comfortable sleep the whole night through. And with every wash, they get even softer, which is just amazing. Plus, these sheets make the perfect gift. Whether you're treating yourself or someone else, they're a thoughtful way to give the gift of better sleep. Because who wouldn't love waking up refreshed, wrapped in the softest sheets imaginable? Plus, with Cozy Earth's 10 year warranty, there's no need to worry about pilling or wear just silky smooth sheets that are built to last through countless cozy nights. Whether it's for yourself or someone on your list, Cozy Earth's bamboo sheet set is the perfect way to embrace the season and gift a little comfort. This year. Wrap the ones you love in luxury with cozy earth. Visit cozy earth.com wiser and use our exclusive 40% off code wiser to give the gift of luxury this holiday season. That's cozy earth.com wise wiser. If you get a post purchase survey, say you heard about Cozy Earth from the Wiser Than Me podcast. Here you are. You're, it seems, in perfect health. You're living this gorgeous life in New York. Do you have help? Are people helping you? Do you have, I mean, how does that work? You know? Like, do you have, I don't know what the word is. Caregivers, or is somebody there with you?
- [42:30]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, I mean, it sort of happens. I mean, there's a woman who came into my life when she was a student, Amy Richards, who's the smartest person I know and who keeps an eye out for what's happening in my life and household, and I'm very grateful to her.
- [42:49]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, that's nice.
- [42:51]
Gloria Steinem
I live in a brownstone and there's a friend who lives on the third floor. I have the first two floors. She lives on the third floor. Which, which is also very helpful because just to know that there's someone else I'm communicating with who's in the same house is good.
- [43:07]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes, very good.
- [43:09]
Gloria Steinem
I mean, I have the old editors of Ms. Magazine. We have lunch at least once a month.
- [43:15]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, nice.
- [43:16]
Gloria Steinem
So, you know, I have a chosen family.
- [43:19]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, that's nice.
- [43:20]
Gloria Steinem
I mean, I have a sister who had six children and they have children and so on.
- [43:25]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
No.
- [43:26]
Gloria Steinem
But an older sister who's no longer alive, but her 6 and their kids are, and they live in D.C. or in Maryland. So I have relatives, but they're not close enough so that we see each other regularly. So it's really my family of friends whom I see.
- [43:45]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I think that that's amazing that you chose not to have children and your sister tripled down on having children. Right. That's an interesting reaction to the childhood that you both had. Were you close with your sister?
- [44:00]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, I mean, I very. Because she was nine years older, she looked after me. So she was kind of not a mother exactly, but definitely an older sister I looked up to.
- [44:13]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, yeah, that's nice. And by the way, that's the other thing that is so amazing about your life story. That Your grandmother was a suffragette. Did you know her?
- [44:24]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, I knew both my grandmothers a little bit.
- [44:27]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
And did she talk. She didn't talk about her work as a suffragette?
- [44:31]
Gloria Steinem
No, she didn't. Or maybe I was just too young because it was my father's mother and maybe I was too young to have that conversation. But I did know that she was an activist and an admired person in the community, that she had helped to start the first vocational high school in Toledo and that she had encouraged women to go to the polls in groups because there were gangs of men and boys hanging around, around the polls so.
- [45:01]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
They wouldn't be harassed, trying to harass.
- [45:04]
Gloria Steinem
Women out of voting. And I think maybe she addressed Congress once. I don't know. I mean, she died when I was very young. My other grandmother was not active in that political suffragist way, but she was nonetheless very self willed and independent and had been married to a railroad engineer. So she had a free pass on the railroad and she would go off to, you know, distant journeys from time to time. Right?
- [45:36]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah. I am so moved when you write about humor and laughter as somebody who lives in that world, to a certain extent, when you say laughter is the only emotion that cannot be compelled. It's the essence of humanity and free will and orgasm of the mind. And I would even argue that it is the most powerful tool to communication. And I'm thinking of when you were lecturing with Flo Kennedy and speaking about feminism, and invariably somebody would ask, and I'll have you take it from there if. Well, anyway, you go ahead, you tell the story, because it's a great story.
- [46:18]
Gloria Steinem
Well, I think what you're referring to is, I mean, I traveled because I was, for one thing, afraid to speak by myself. So I always found a friend.
- [46:28]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, me too. By the way, I love having somebody.
- [46:30]
Gloria Steinem
With me, Dorothy Pittman Hughes or Florence Kennedy, who was a great civil rights lawyer. So in an audience, just an average audience, there would often be a hostile guy who would stand up and say, are you lesbians? And Flo would always say, are you my alternative, which was the perfect answer because it made everybody laugh. And it didn't tell him, you know, didn't answer him.
- [46:58]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It didn't answer him, which was appropriate. And it just completely took the air out of his vitriol. And that's what I mean by a powerful tool. So not only does it shut him down, but it turns the energy of the room around completely. You know, it could have been very tense.
- [47:18]
Gloria Steinem
I mean, I'm very grateful to the great Flo Kennedy and Dorothy Pittman Hughes and the women I lectured with and learned so much from. And it's ancient knowledge that laughter is important because, I mean, in Native American culture, various cultures, there is a God of laughter who is neither male nor female. Because the principle is, I think, that laughter cannot be compelled. You can make someone cry or be angry or whatever, but laughter is free. You can't force somebody to laugh who doesn't want to. Right?
- [47:58]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
That's right. It's sacred in that sense.
- [47:59]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, absolutely.
- [48:01]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah. And it's also interesting to me that I think men particularly are often threatened by funny women. Do you agree with that?
- [48:11]
Gloria Steinem
Well, I think authority doesn't want to be left at. So maybe men who cling to masculine authority don't want to be laughed at, especially by women that robs them of their power and their view.
- [48:29]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Do you think that women become more radical as they get older?
- [48:34]
Gloria Steinem
I suppose nothing is true all the time, but I do think it's possible that it's often true because we outlive the stereotypical expectations of marriage and family and this subordinate role, if that's still around or, you know, I mean, I think just as we are maybe more ourselves when we're before 10 or 11 years old and we're little girls who are climbing trees and saying, you know, I know what I want, I know what I think, and the feminine, feminine role hasn't descended upon us yet, we may also be more ourselves at the other end of the feminine role. And I always think it would be great if an army of gray haired women could take over the earth.
- [49:21]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well, then the earth would be a safe place in my view. You know, it would be much better. It would be much better. I certainly feel more radicalized as I've gotten older. And to your point, I feel freer of certain cultural burdens that felt heavier when I was younger. And maybe, I don't know, stuff gets clearer, doesn't it? It gets clearer.
- [49:49]
Gloria Steinem
Have you written about that or spoken about that? Because I think it is helpful to share that because it's not necessarily something we learn in school.
- [49:58]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, I've never written a book that's not something I've tackled. I find that daunting. And I guess I've spoken about, I mean, we talk about this on this. The whole reason that I wanted to do this show is because I felt like there was a whole, a true need to hear from older women that it was a group of human beings that weren't being listened to in the way that they should be, and that we were missing this extraordinary opportunity to glean wisdom and information about life that we could find very useful. And I found this podcast. It's emboldened to me as a woman who is not getting younger.
- [50:41]
Gloria Steinem
There's nothing more helpful than sharing experience and learning from each other and discovering we're not alone, we're not crazy, and that we're together. We can do a lot more than we can individually. It's the nature of all political movements, of civilization itself, and it's especially necessary for any group that has less power than others in the same area is especially good for women. And I think it's especially helpful if we're in groups that kind of look like the country. So we're not replicating a racial division.
- [51:20]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
That's right. Yeah, that's right. And what's on your to do list, Gloria?
- [51:26]
Gloria Steinem
How long do we have?
- [51:27]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
We have forever.
- [51:30]
Gloria Steinem
I owe my publisher a book of essays, which I vote for sometimes time. And I keep answering my email and having meetings in my living room and doing things other than doing that. But I really do want to do that. I still value writing as a permanent way of communication, and I think the book is still a kind of sacred being. But books have probably come to take up less power in our lives as we've been reading online more and more.
- [52:05]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I know, but, you know, I find that when I read online, like even the newspaper, for example, it doesn't stick in my brain the same way. I need to hold it in my hands to have it stay with me in a sort of more impactful way. Speaking of reading, I see there's a needlepoint pillow behind you. I'm wondering what that needlepoint pillow says that's on the chair.
- [52:27]
Gloria Steinem
I don't know. What does it say? Oh, it says being on the bestsellers list is the best revenge. And I think that's because I wrote something that got bad reviews in the New York Times and then sold anyway.
- [52:49]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes, that's very good. That's very good. Well, I hope that your next book of essays is actually on the bestseller list. I have no doubt that it will be. And before. Before I let you go, can I ask you a couple of very quick questions that we sort of like to ask our guests at the end of a conversation? Is there something that you would go back and tell yourself at 21?
- [53:13]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, I would just go back and put my arms around her and say, it's going to be all right. Because the pressures then, given my age, the pressures then were especially to get married and have children and so on. And I was at that time just graduating from college and about to flee to India in order to make a different path. But I would just put my arms around her and say, it's going to be all right.
- [53:40]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, that's nice. And is there anything that you wish you could go back and say yes to? Hmm.
- [53:48]
Gloria Steinem
Gosh, that's interesting. I. Actually, nothing springs to mind because I think I was a little addicted to you. Yes. I hadn't learned how to say no.
- [54:02]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
So maybe you wish you would say.
- [54:04]
Gloria Steinem
I was probably overdoing the yes thing.
- [54:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Overdoing the yes. Got it. Is there anything you want to tell me about aging? From where you sit right now, Is there anything you'd like to tell me?
- [54:16]
Gloria Steinem
I think especially for women, the view of aging is more negative than it should. And actually, it's a time of freedom. It resembles before the feminine role descended upon you when you were a little girl climbing trees, as I was saying. Only now you have the spirit back of the little girl climbing trees, but you have probably a house of your own, a room of your own, a little bit of, you know, way more ability to do what you love and care about and see the people you love. So aging as a time of freedom and reward is probably a bit of a revolutionary idea for women since we've been so corralled into the time of reproduction and raising kids.
- [55:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I love it.
- [55:07]
Gloria Steinem
So there's freedom and humor and rebellion and all kinds of great things awaiting.
- [55:14]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I love it. I'm in the middle of a great rebellion, self rebellion, rebellion, period. That's something to celebrate. Gloria Steinem, thank you so much for.
- [55:22]
Gloria Steinem
Talking to us today. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [55:25]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I'm going to look you up when I'm in New York, and perhaps we can go ahead.
- [55:28]
Gloria Steinem
Yes, please, please come.
- [55:29]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I promise I'm going to. I promise.
- [55:31]
Gloria Steinem
That would be great.
- [55:32]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Okay. Lots of love to you.
- [55:34]
Gloria Steinem
Love to you.
- [55:35]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Love to you, too. Wow. How about that? Hi, listeners. Okay, so I thought it would be cool to have my mom listen in on my conversation with Gloria, because, you know, come on, it's Gloria Steinem, and she was such a big force in my mom's lifetime and in my lifetime, too. It obviously doesn't hurt that they have the exact same birthday. So let's pop back into the zoom and see what she thought about it. So, Mommy, this time you're able to listen in on the whole conversation with Gloria Stein. How about that?
- [56:14]
Judith Bowles
How about that? I mean, that is a moment in my Life. I want to tell you a moment in my life, especially since we're under the same sign.
- [56:23]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [56:23]
Judith Bowles
We're both Aries and we're actually. We should have found out what time she's born.
- [56:28]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, fuck. Well, I'm going to go see her. I am, in fact, going to go and visit her in New York. So when I do that, I'll. I'll ask her.
- [56:35]
Judith Bowles
Exactly. And I don't know what time I was born, but I've got my birth certificate and my little feet were this big.
- [56:41]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Okay.
- [56:42]
Judith Bowles
And I also loved. I loved it when she, when she said, but I'm still here.
- [56:46]
Gloria Steinem
Yeah.
- [56:47]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
You know, do you feel like Gloria Steinem was talking about. Do you feel a kind of rebellion of sort of. Do you feel more radical at this age? To a certain extent. Extent.
- [57:05]
Judith Bowles
Well, well, I, I can't. I don't use the word radical because that's not really me. But what I feel is completely being honest to the situation. To a situation. And so in a way, you know, that's so like an. We're in a new situation, meaning in.
- [57:24]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Your new living situation where you just moved.
- [57:27]
Judith Bowles
Yeah. And if I'm in a committee and something comes up that I just, you know, and outraged about or question, I have no hesitation to absolutely put it on the line and say, you know, is that. Is that. Tell me more about that. Or to really pursue the things that I. Where I feel my pulse rise.
- [57:49]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Good. And do you. I mean, do you consider yourself a feminist?
- [57:55]
Judith Bowles
No. I mean, in that, yes. In my sympathies, in my actions now. Yes. But of the same time that she's talking about. No. I went along with the cultural expectation and life kind of has brought me into feminism, but it's not. I consider a feminist, one of these women that sort of took up the cause and lived it. And I did not take up the cause and live it. I've come to it. I've sort of been broadsided by it. I mean, I totally believe in it. That's nothing against feminism. That's. That shows that I was embedded in the patriarchy. The patriarchy? Yes. Yes.
- [58:40]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well, actually, I have a question. So when I was born, you were teaching, and I remember that you tell the story of my dad. Prior to your teaching, you were an actor, weren't you? Trying to pursue. Didn't daddy will tell you that he didn't want you taking acting jobs? Am I. Oh, yeah.
- [59:10]
Judith Bowles
But that was in college, too. I mean, that was just from the get go. No acting.
- [59:18]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
And why was that? Did he ever articulate what was your understanding of why he didn't want you to perform?
- [59:25]
Judith Bowles
Well, it was in college and so I thought that was going to be the end of it anyway. I never, I mean, at one point I had auditioned for the Royal Academy and that was my sophomore year and if I had gotten that, I think I would have left Duke and I would have whatever, but I didn't get it then, so. But your dad did not like me to be in acting. He didn't like it because you said that, that if you're an actor, all you did was say other people's words.
- [59:57]
Gloria Steinem
That's.
- [59:57]
Judith Bowles
It's a stupid thing to do. And, but I think that also there wasn't. That he was jealous of, of other attention that came about by. And jealous of the time that it took. So I think that's. And I think I knew that, but that was just something that I just managed and was in, in plays all the time. But that, that it was almost like I had. Is going to end now, you know, when, when, when I graduate.
- [60:25]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Got it. So you didn't try, you didn't try to pursue it after graduation?
- [60:30]
Judith Bowles
I did after he and I separated.
- [60:32]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh.
- [60:35]
Judith Bowles
But in, I would say a truly half assed way, I mean, I was not, you know, I didn't really have training. I didn't have, I didn't have anybody supporting me, giving me confidence in doing it. I was just sort of out there in some wild and flailing way. So I never got, never really did anything with.
- [61:01]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It would have been fun if you could have gotten into Lee Strasberg's class in New York. Can you imagine that?
- [61:08]
Judith Bowles
Well, I was in a class in New York and he was a small actor and I can't remember his name now, but he was, it was, it was fun to be in the class. Yeah.
- [61:22]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
So you took classes anyway. Classes.
- [61:25]
Judith Bowles
But I always felt self conscious in the classes. I never talk about authenticity. I never felt, I always felt like I was acting. That was not that way at Duke. At Duke I felt authentic and afterwards I felt like I was just, just. Yeah, yeah. They'd say, pretend you're taking a shower, you know?
- [61:50]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well, what you just did is not. I would say, you might want to go back to the drawing board on that depiction of taking a shower. My mother's just patting her shoulders and going like this as if that's how you take shower.
- [62:07]
Judith Bowles
Oh, please, get me out of here.
- [62:13]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Now you've done your depiction of taking a shower and I'm giving you the Academy award for that. And now you can thank the Academy and say goodbye to me.
- [62:26]
Judith Bowles
Goodbye. And I'd like to thank all the people that made this responsible, I mean made it happen.
- [62:32]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
- [62:34]
Judith Bowles
I love you.
- [62:35]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Love you, love you. Bye. Hey yeah, there's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiserthanme and we're on Facebook @wiserthanmepodcast. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila zara Williams, Alex McOen and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of New Content and our SVP of Weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie whittleswax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Joni Vince Evans with engineering help from James Farber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.
- [64:04]
Unknown
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