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- [00:01]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Heads up. A little later, I'll be doing a different kind of ad for an invention designed to end home food waste. Seriously? The company's called Mill, and the invention is a food recycler. And let me tell you, it's made dealing with food waste in my kitchen incredibly easy. And it's cut the volume of my garbage in half. I was so blown away that I actually came on as an investor. I'll be getting into all the details later on, but for now, I just wanted you to get as excited about it as I am. If your curiosity's already peaked, check it out now@mill.com wiser and get $100 off your purchase. That's mil.com wiser. Hey, listeners, it's me, Julia. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me, and we have so much more wisdom to share from the legendary older women who have joined me this season. I can't tell you the number of times when I'm having these conversations. I find myself scrambling for a, like a piece of paper or a napkin or whatever I can find on my desk to quickly jot down some nug that my guest is sharing in our conversation. I mean, you've probably had the same experience, right? Well, guess what? Problem solved. We have created brand new Wiser Than Me notebooks with fun sayings on the COVID like get wise or wise up. So you can keep all your newfound wisdom in one place. We just added these groovy hardcover notebooks to our merch shop. To buy yours, head over to wiser than me shop.com today. Lemonade in California. When you live near the mountains like I do, every once in a while you get to see a bear or even a mountain lion. And it's a reminder of the wild world this place used to be and that we've tamed it thoroughly and perhaps tragically, but not completely. So when the opportunity came for our family to go to the Galapagos Islands many years ago, the miraculous volcanic archipelago off the coast of Ecuador, we knew exactly how lucky we were. And, boy, off we went. And I got to tell you guys, it was way, way, way beyond my expectations. I mean, I don't. Honestly, I don't think I'll ever experience anything like that again. I mean, you're 550 miles off of South America, right on the equator, the very place that gave birth to Darwin's Origin of the Species. And for an animal person, and I'm certainly an animal person, it's just magical. You know, I really mean that literally. It feels like it's a magical place because you see, you step onto these rocky little islands and you are instantly and absolutely surrounded by the most incredible variety of spectacular animals. Blue footed boobies and Galapagos penguins and giant tortoises and waved albatross, who are amazingly beautiful, and Sally Lightfoot crabs and of course the famous marine iguanas, who are sort of the stars of the show down there. And the thing is, is that none of these animals give a about the humans. It's awesome because you are in their world. You aren't king of the hill. You're in the minority in numbers and in status. And then you put on a snorkel or a scuba tank and it's bottlenose dolphins and seals and hammerhead sharks and sea turtles and more penguins and iguanas. My son Charlie and I were just talking about this the other day, his memory of the experience. And we were both remembering that when we were swimming how all of these seals, particularly the little young ones, the baby seals, and they're so cute, by the way, they would follow us and they'd start to play with us right there. They'd be somersaulting around us and they'd blow bubbles like little kids. They'd blow bubbles at us. It was like they were laughing at us. It was completely playful. Or a marine iguana would climb up onto a rock and puff itself out. And I swear to God, it really does look like some guy in a Godzilla suit. And of course I realized that I just anthropomorphized all these animals. But that's what we do, I think, when we try to understand them. Anyway, when I got back home to Los Angeles, I had to promote a TV show. So I went on the Tonight show. And the main guest on the show was Nancy Pelosi, which was fantastic because of course, I'm Nancy Pelosi's greatest fan and admirer. So I was telling a story about the Galapagos trip on the show and I was talking about the giant Galapagos tortoises, the biggest of all tortoises on Earth. We went to go see them with this naturalist guide who was wonderful and she was telling us all about how the tortoises live for 100 plus years. Maybe we should have one of the tortoises on this show. I mean, they really do get that old. Anyway, while she's talking, this giant tortoise behind her starts to rub himself up against a rock and he gets an erection. I am not kidding you. This actually happened. And it was a giant erection, okay? Because it's a giant tortoise. And I realize, oh, my God. Holy crap, this thing is masturbating. This tortoise is masturbating. And right when I get to this part of the story on the Tonight Show, I suddenly think, oh, my God, I'm telling a tortoise jerking off joke on national television. And the climax of this story is the actual Taurus's climax. And then I also realize I'm sitting next to the first female speaker of the House in the history of the United States Congress. And she's so classy and so Catholic, and I am so not classy telling this story. What the fuck am I doing? And it kind of threw me off my game. But of course, Nancy Pelosi was very polite and she laughed at all the right places, even the jizzy part. Anyway, I digress. My point is that the world was once a much wilder place. Humans weren't the top of the food chain. We shared the world with our fellow creatures, not because we were uncorrupted innocents, no, no, we had to share. But at some point, we stopped sharing. And what a shame, because even in the controlled Safeway that I got to experience the absolute wonder of seeing those creatures cavorting in the Galapagos. There is just so much to learn and so much joy to be derived from the living things we share this planet with. So as we embark on season three, I've been reflecting on how quickly the world is moving today. Work, social media, and politics often separate us from each other, from our own feelings, from our relationships to the natural world, animals, and community. But the amazing women on this show are out here fighting to stay connected and reminding us of the importance of finding our place alongside each other and nature and everything that surrounds us. So today, as we begin this new season, how lucky then, are we to talk with Jane Goodall? I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. With nothing but a notebook, binoculars, a pair of incredibly chic high top Converse sneakers, and an intense fascination with wildlife, Jane Goodall, at age 26, ventured into the jungles of Gambe and introduced us to our nearest living relatives, the chimpanzees. She immersed herself in their world, observing them, living alongside them, learning their social dynamics and behaviors firsthand. Slowly, through trial and error, patience, and pure determination, she built a thorough study of the species. Jane Goodall was first to observe that chimps aren't just passive vegetarians. They are hunters, meat eaters and tool users. This shattered the long held belief that only humans made and used tools and led to the redefinition of the term man. Leave it to a woman to redefine man. See, the thing about Jane Goodall's work is that it embodies how women often approach challenges. Since 1960, she has merged good science with empathy and revolutionized how we see primates and how we talk about them not just as categorized species, but as fellow beings with emotional complexity. For more than six decades, Jane has shown us the critical need to protect chimpanzees from extinction, while expanding the idea of conservation to include local communities and the environment. In 1977, she founded the Jane Goodall Institute for Wildlife Research, Education and Conservation. Today, she's a global advocate for chimps and wildlife and our planet, crisscrossing the world to speak about the urgent threats facing the planet, calling on all of us to act. It is not an exaggeration to say Jane Goodall has inspired millions. She is the winner of the UNESCO Peace Prize and has been named messenger of Peace by the United nations and Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire. She's a mother to her son Hugo, who is known as Grub, and of course, Mr. H, a stuffed monkey who sits beside her right now. She's an author, a trailblazer, and let's face it, she's Tarzan's true Jane. Wiser than me and probably so much wiser than all of us. Jane Goodall, welcome. Jane Goodall to wiser than me.
- [10:29]
Jane Goodall
Well, thank you. And I'm very happy to be talking with you.
- [10:32]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I'm very happy to be talking with you, too. What a treat. So, first of all, Jane, are you comfortable if I ask your real age?
- [10:40]
Jane Goodall
Yeah, I'm 90.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
You're 90? And how old do you feel?
- [10:44]
Jane Goodall
I don't feel any age, to be honest. I don't think about age. I just be.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
You just be?
- [10:50]
Jane Goodall
Yeah.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
What do you think is the best part of being 90?
- [10:56]
Jane Goodall
The best part of being 90, I suppose, is because I've lived all these years. I've acquired knowledge, I've seen change. You know, when I was young, the television wasn't invented, let alone all these zooms and things like that.
- [11:13]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right. Incredible, isn't it?
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Jane Goodall
Yeah.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
I mean, how you just described the best part about being your age is really why we do this podcast. It's exactly why. Because we're talking to women who have, you know, been alive for decades and have so much to Share and have a perspective that's unique to the experience of living a long life, which we're so grateful for. So you just turned 90, I believe. Right. Didn't you just.
- [11:40]
Jane Goodall
It was in. No, April.
- [11:41]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
In April.
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Jane Goodall
So I'm nineteen and a half.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
You're nineteen and a half. How'd you celebrate the big day, Jane?
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Jane Goodall
Well, everybody wants to celebrate with galas. Or galas. Whichever you say.
- [11:52]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
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Jane Goodall
I happen to hate them.
- [11:54]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
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Jane Goodall
But there was one event and only one that I really, really loved. What was it so far?
- [12:00]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Tell me.
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Jane Goodall
In California, on a beach, I was greeted by 90 dogs. Big dogs, little dogs, pure breeds, muds, you name it. 90 dogs. And it's an off leash dog beach. So we played in the water and got wet and it rained and it was just glorious.
- [12:22]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, God, Jane, that is so fabulous. You're a dog lover. Obviously.
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Jane Goodall
My favorite animal is a dog.
- [12:29]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, God, yes.
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Jane Goodall
People think it's chimps.
- [12:32]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
No. But it's dogs.
- [12:34]
Jane Goodall
Yep.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah. Do you have a dog now?
- [12:36]
Jane Goodall
Actually, I can't, can I? Traveling 300 days a year.
- [12:39]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
No, you can't.
- [12:41]
Jane Goodall
Sad.
- [12:42]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, it's very sad.
- [12:43]
Jane Goodall
Yeah.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
I want to share with you something since you're a dog lover, because I found this so remarkable about animal behavior. So we have this dog who's kind of high strung, but he's a really good guy. And we used to have a small little like dinghy boat out in front of our house and we would walk by it every day. And then it got sold. And then the next day we went walking by and my dog George stopped in his tracks as if he'd seen a lion and wouldn't move because of course the dinghy had disappeared. And I thought, my God, the fact that this is meaningful to him, that his world has just been adjusted and he clocked it. And I had to coax him to walk by that space where the dinghy was. And I thought, wow, that really. I don't know exactly what it means, except to me it means a kind of intelligence. Do you agree with that?
- [13:39]
Jane Goodall
Oh, dogs are amazingly intelligent.
- [13:42]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
They really are.
- [13:43]
Jane Goodall
When I went to study the chimps, I'd never been to college because we couldn't afford it.
- [13:49]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [13:49]
Jane Goodall
And so I finally managed to save up money. I went to stay with a friend who'd invited me and met Dr. Louis Leakey. And he's the one who suggested. Asked actually if I would be prepared to go and study chimpanzees. I would have studied any animal. But he wanted someone to study chimps so that's how I got there. And after I'd lived with them for about two years and learned a great deal about them, he told me, now I have to go to college, now I have to get a degree. And I got to Cambridge University to do a PhD with no undergraduate degree, and I was told I'd done everything wrong. I couldn't talk about your personality, mind or emotion. Those were unique to us. I'd been taught that they were talking rubbish. And who was my teacher? My dog, Rusty.
- [14:45]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
And explain to me how Rusty was your teacher. Explain exactly.
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Jane Goodall
Well, you've got a dog, you know your dog has a personality.
- [14:53]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
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Jane Goodall
And a mind.
- [14:55]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
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Jane Goodall
And emotions.
- [14:57]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
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Jane Goodall
Well, all dogs teach you that.
- [15:00]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah. They pick up on energy in a room. They know if someone's upset. They're caregivers, actually. In fact.
- [15:09]
Jane Goodall
Yep.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
And speaking of caregivers, I want to talk about your wonderful mother, who is certainly a hero in the Jane Goodall story. Was she an animal lover like you?
- [15:19]
Jane Goodall
Well, she wasn't crazy. I mean, the whole family, you know, love animals, but not out of the ordinary loving animals.
- [15:30]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
But you're out of the ordinary loving animals, would you say?
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Jane Goodall
Probably. I began watching animals when I was one and a half, according to Mom.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
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Jane Goodall
She. I took a whole lot of worms to bed with me, and instead of being angry because of all the earth, she said, I don't remember this. I was one and a half.
- [15:48]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
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Jane Goodall
And she said, jane, you were watching them so intently, I think you must have been wondering, how do they walk without legs? So very gently, she said, we'd better put them back in the garden. They might die in your bed. So we took them back into the garden and that's how she was. She supported my love.
- [16:09]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, God, you're so lucky. That is such. That's the dearest story. Everything about it I love. She handled it so kindly and so respectfully and nurtured in you, what was the best in you? Obviously, I love the story of you being in the hen house waiting for the hens to lay eggs, and everyone was looking for you for hours and hours. And did you actually get to see them lay an egg?
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Jane Goodall
I can see the hen now. She came in. I'd waited four hours and she came in because I couldn't think where the hole was, where the egg came out. Yeah, of course, you know, I was four years old.
- [16:44]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
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Jane Goodall
And I can still close my eyes and see the egg coming out slightly soft and plopping down on the straw.
- [16:54]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
That's cool. That's so magical. Are you like your mother? I mean, she was obviously an adventurer because she came with you to Gombe and was your chaperone. She obviously supported you to sort of push back against the norms, sort of push against the edge of the cultural envelope. So you had that in common, didn't you? I mean, I guess you were sort of working in tandem like that.
- [17:21]
Jane Goodall
Well, you know, the reason she came to Gombe is that at that time, Tanzania was Tanganyika, part of the crumbling British Empire.
- [17:31]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [17:32]
Jane Goodall
And the British authorities wouldn't allow me to go on my own. They said, no, she's got to have someone with her. So it was mum who volunteered to come. She came for the first four months, and after that, the authorities, I think they thought I was a bit crazy, but they guessed I was okay.
- [17:51]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right. First of all, I was hoping to sort of talk a little bit about those four months, because what you were doing was hard. You were living in a tent and you both got malaria at the same time. Can you describe what that was like, Jane?
- [18:06]
Jane Goodall
Yeah. Well, first of all, the first four months were very frustrating because the chips would take one look and disappear, you know, So I was only getting information through my binoculars quite far away. And mom had this, you know, she boosted my morale. She kept saying, well, Jane, you're learning more than you think. You're learning what they're feeding on. You learn how they make nests at night up in the trees. You're learning. Sometimes they travel alone, sometimes in little groups. And so it was really sad. She left just two weeks before that breakthrough observation.
- [18:45]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, you're kidding.
- [18:46]
Jane Goodall
David Greybeard, using and making tools. Ah, yeah.
- [18:51]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, I didn't know that part of it.
- [18:53]
Jane Goodall
Wow.
- [18:54]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Okay.
- [18:55]
Jane Goodall
So when we both got malaria, she was much sicker than me and she nearly died. She had a temperature of 105 for three days. And all we could do, we both lay there aside. We shared a tent. We only had money for one ex army tent. And all we could do was pass the thermometer back and forth to take our temperatures.
- [19:16]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, you poor souls. But you survived it.
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Jane Goodall
We survived.
- [19:21]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Speaking of the moment, the pinnacle moment, when you saw. Well, you saw two things. You saw them eating meat, and then you saw them using tools.
- [19:32]
Jane Goodall
It was the same chimpanzee. David Graybeard, I called him, had this beautiful white chin. He was the first one who began to let me get a little bit close.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
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Jane Goodall
And it was him who showed me tool use. And it was him, the first chimp I saw eating meat.
- [19:50]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
So when that happened, Jane, were You, in the moment, struck at the enormity of what you were witnessing. Did you realize as it was happening that this is huge, or were you just taking it in? I'm curious.
- [20:08]
Jane Goodall
I knew it was huge in the scientific world. I wasn't surprised because a book had been written by an Austrian, Wolfgang Kohler, and he was studying a group of chimpanzees in captivity in a big space. And he wrote a book called the Mentality of Apes. And it was very, very clear how amazingly intelligent chimpanzees were, how they very quickly learned to use tools to reach a fruit that was high up, for example, and. But the science brushed it aside and said, oh, but these were captive. So obviously they're not really intelligent. They're just aping humans, I mean, which is ridiculous, you know.
- [20:54]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Ridiculous. Yeah.
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Jane Goodall
I mean, humans don't pile boxes one on top of the other to reach a fruit suspended from the ceiling.
- [21:02]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right, right. Or even I, when I was reading about that moment and you talked about how David Greybeard had taken not just one blade of grass or stick, but multiple, and put them next to him so that as it, I guess, the stick or the blade sort of degraded or fell apart, he would have more tools next to him. He sort of created a tool shed next to his body, right?
- [21:31]
Jane Goodall
Yes, that's right.
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Julia Louis Dreyfus
Incredible. And then when you were writing this and sending messages back, who heard about it first?
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Jane Goodall
Oh, I sent it to my mentor, Louis Leakey, the one who got me the money for six months.
- [21:45]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
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Jane Goodall
And he wrote a famous telegram, I wish I'd kept a copy. But, you know, back then, you didn't think of things like that.
- [21:53]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
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Jane Goodall
And he said, well, as we were defined as man, the tool maker, now we must redefine man, redefine tool, or accept chimps as humans.
- [22:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
God almighty, that is just. You must have been out of your mind. I know it happened a long time ago, but to hear it from you, the story of watching it as it happened, it must have been a truly awesome experience.
- [22:22]
Jane Goodall
Yes, it was.
- [22:23]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [22:23]
Jane Goodall
It also led to the National Geographic showing interest and agreeing that they would provide money when my six months ran out.
- [22:32]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right. And then the ripple effect of this, of course, is that then there became an awareness of the area, the animals, the conservation. I mean, so much was born from that moment that we're all so thankful for. I know you've said that you would spend countless hours sitting in one spot, which you called the peak. I wonder if you learned anything about yourself spending so much time alone. Was there something that grew inside you as a result of that?
- [23:10]
Jane Goodall
I don't think so. Because, you know, I'd always loved. I used to spend hours and hours out in the garden watching birds and insects and anything. Squirrels, yes. And then walking out. We lived by the sea and walking there, of course, with my dog Rusty. So. Can't be alone when you're with a dog. But yes, sitting out on the peak, you know, I really just had the feeling I'm where I meant to be. This is where I'm meant to be. And, you know, I still look back over my life and think, well, I've got a mission. I was put here for a reason. And things have followed. And here I am now.
- [23:55]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, it's kind of. It's just mind blowing, really. We'll be right back with Jane Goodall after this quick break. Okay, guys, you know what's a huge and totally overlooked problem for the climate? Food waste. It's actually heating up the planet faster than the entire global airline industry. Let that sink in for a second. Yeah. So a while back, I found out about this invention that's supposed to help fix all this. It's called the mill food recycler. And I got to tell you, I am really a believer because it's got that special quality any new idea needs to catch on. It's insanely easy. It's roughly the size and shape of your garbage bin. But it also kind of looks like an iPhone, which makes sense because it was invented by the main engineer behind the iPhone and the iPad and the nest thermostat. So like every life changing invention of the last 20 years, you just drop your food scraps in and your old neglected leftovers in the mill and, well, that's it. It works overnight while you sleep. You don't even need to push a button. You don't have to think about garbage or smell compost or schlep a bag out to the curb every day because you don't have to empty meal for weeks on end. Sometimes over a month in our house, for real. And it's completely odorless. We're talking a month's worth of food scraps. And it smells like nothing. It takes just about anything that comes out of our kitchen. We're talking hard to compost stuff like avocado pits or our whole Thanksgiving turkey carcass. I mean, mill can really handle it. It shrinks it all down by about 80%, turning it into what mill calls food grounds, which kind of remind me of dry coffee grounds, actually. Okay, so the big question where do all these food grounds go? Well, first of all, they make incredible fertilizer for your garden. Or you can add them to your own compost pile. Or you can even add it to your curbside compost bin if your city has one. So you may know I'm a gardening person, but if you aren't, get this Mill can have your grounds picked up from your home and sent back to farms to create more food. I am so into mill that I've actually become an investor. It's made my life better and I think it stands a chance of making the world a little better too. Go to mill.com wiser to get 100 off your purchase of mill. We're not talking small change again. That's mil.com wiser for $100 off. This show is sponsored by Macy's. Thanksgiving morning wouldn't be complete without the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. This year marks the 96th annual parade live from New York City. There's something so special about waking up to those huge, colorful balloons making their way through the city streets. It's like a little bit of magic filling up your living room. And it's the perfect start to the holiday before all the cooking and festiv. This year's parade is even more exciting with Minnie Mouse making her debut as a brand new balloon floating down the streets of New York alongside all the other iconic characters. And it's not just about the balloons and floats. There are incredible Broadway performances, marching bands from across the country, and of course, Santa himself closing it out to kick off the holiday season. So grab your family, cozy up, and make the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade part of your Thanksgiving tradition. To learn more about the parade and what's in store this year, visit Macy's. You've said that without patience, you never would have succeeded at this work. That's obvious. I'm assuming you've always been patient. Or has your patience evolved as you've gotten older, as you've had your child and grandchildren? Or has it been sort of a constant for you that you've used in your life to great effect?
- [28:26]
Jane Goodall
Well, I mean, think when I was four years old, I spent four hours waiting for a hen to lay an egg. Yes, that's so. It's always been there.
- [28:35]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It's always been there.
- [28:36]
Jane Goodall
Yeah, right.
- [28:37]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
God, as I was reading about your adventures and watching you, and I really do believe that you're one of the bravest people I've ever met. Can you talk about the scariest thing that ever happened to you when you Were there and how you managed it.
- [28:57]
Jane Goodall
There were two scary things. For some reason, I was scared of leopards.
- [29:02]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
For some reason. Jane, please. I think there's a strong reason to be scared of the leopard. No, Jane, absolutely.
- [29:10]
Jane Goodall
But I always had the conviction that if you don't harm an animal, the animal won't harm you unless the animal previously has been harmed by someone.
- [29:19]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Okay.
- [29:20]
Jane Goodall
Therefore hates people. Anyway, I was sitting on this peak and suddenly there was a little dip and the grass was tall and I heard a mewy sound. And I could see the tail tip, wide tip tail of a leopard coming directly towards me along a little trail. And I was scared, so I made a lot of noise. And then I went rather rapidly in the other direction. And, you know, I never knew whether to go back or not. I think it was four or five hours later. I thought, well, I have to go back. And on the very spot where I always sat, the leopard had deposited his poo. Oh, this is my place.
- [30:03]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
He was letting you know.
- [30:05]
Jane Goodall
Wow. But anyway, after that it was okay. But the other scary thing, just when the chimpanzees were beginning to get used to me, it was raining a lot. And I was walking along the trail and I heard chimps make this screaming threat noise.
- [30:23]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [30:24]
Jane Goodall
So I think because it was raining, the chimps were cold and miserable and there were about six adult males. And they all started swaying in the trees above and screaming at me. And so I sat down and I pretended that I was very busy digging a little hole, eating leaves on the ground, just hoping they would go away. One of them actually charged up behind me and hit me on the head. But then, fortunately, they went away. That was scary.
- [30:57]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
What was happening there. How do you understand what that was?
- [31:01]
Jane Goodall
They were treating me as if I was a predator. That's what they would do to a leopard.
- [31:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Wow. And yet you carried on with your work after that.
- [31:11]
Jane Goodall
Yeah.
- [31:12]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
So it didn't dissuade you, obviously.
- [31:14]
Jane Goodall
No.
- [31:16]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
By the way, I'm in California and just a couple days ago we had a bobcat on our property, if you can believe it.
- [31:25]
Jane Goodall
Oh, how lovely.
- [31:26]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
The most beautiful animal. We also have rabbits everywhere. And he was stalking the rabbits. I don't think he got one, unfortunately, because we have a lot. But it's really incredible when you see the natural world come into your life here in a. You know, I'm in a city.
- [31:44]
Jane Goodall
Yep. At home we just have foxes. And one fox got very, very tame when I was a child. The fox made a den under our little summer house and the cubs would play in the moonlight. It was so lovely.
- [31:58]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well they are incredible. They're very much like dogs, you know, fox. And in fact we have fox here too. And get a load of this. We had some people staying with us and they had left their shoes outside and then she said oh did you take my shoes? And I, I didn't.
- [32:13]
Jane Goodall
Why do foxes have this thing about shoes?
- [32:16]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I don't know but they take them and they do. And it happened to multiple people. And then one day I was cleaning in some brush down the hill and didn't I find a bunch of chewed up shoes that belonged to my friends from the year prior.
- [32:30]
Jane Goodall
It's really strange, isn't it? Yes. In England this man in London, he went into a, into a new house and he was sort of gardening and he found an old fox den and inside I think there were 15 shoes, individual shoes. So he had a railing outside with spikes. So he put these shoes along the railing and said if you've lost a shoe maybe it's here.
- [32:59]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
That's hilarious. Maybe it's the smell. You know dogs like shoes too to chew on shoes. Maybe it has something to do with the smell.
- [33:04]
Jane Goodall
Smelly feet.
- [33:05]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, smelly feet. So going back to chimpanzees for just a moment, you've said you've learned a lot about human behavior from chimps and you specifically talk about a chimp named Goliath. You described him as an alpha male and almost like a psychopath Goliath.
- [33:23]
Jane Goodall
He was actually a very brave, courageous chimp.
- [33:26]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh really?
- [33:27]
Jane Goodall
Yes. So he got to the top because he wasn't afraid of being attacked by a high ranking male. He wasn't particularly big but he was brave and he was David Greybeard's best friend. And he would sometimes go to David like all the other chimps because David was gentle and calm and David would reassure him if Goliath had been attacked he would embrace him. Then others, like Humphrey was big, aggressive, he got to the top by attacking and he didn't last long.
- [34:02]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
You mean as the alpha, is that what you mean?
- [34:04]
Jane Goodall
As the alpha?
- [34:05]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, how fascinating.
- [34:07]
Jane Goodall
So the, you know, and then Figgin got to the top because he only charged at a higher ranking male when his older brother was there and they charged together. So when you use your intelligence to get to the top you last longer. So Figgin lasted for 10 years as Alpha.
- [34:26]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Isn't that amazing?
- [34:28]
Jane Goodall
Yeah.
- [34:29]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
In addition to studying the hierarchy of chimpanzees, you said that studying them helped you understand motherhood and becoming a mother helps you Understand the chimps. So can you talk about that and tell me how you applied that to your own mothering of your son?
- [34:46]
Jane Goodall
Well, I realized, of course, now we have proof of it after, you know, the study's in its 64th year now, so we've got all the back data.
- [34:56]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [34:57]
Jane Goodall
And it's very clear that the young chimps who have supportive mothers like my mother, that even a low ranking female will run in to defend her child. If the child is hit by a playmate whose mother is higher ranking, nevertheless the lower ranking mother will run in even though she knows you're going to be beaten up. And those chimps, the males tend to rise higher in the dominance hierarchy, the male dominance hierarchy. And the young females grow up to be better mothers. And it's the same, you know, the first few years of life for a child to be supported by a tiny group of people that they can depend on. I think makes all the difference in the world.
- [35:45]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes, it certainly does. You know, there's something about your son Hugo, I'm so curious about. Why did you call him Grub?
- [35:54]
Jane Goodall
Oh, well, there was a little chimp called Goblin and Goblin, I don't know if he was playing with other youngsters. At the end they would just be normal, but he would be covered in bits of grass and stuff. And it was when we were feeding the chimps bananas. And I remember once that he had this huge banana and. And he'd eaten too much already, so he took a big mouthful, chewed it, spat it into his hand and smashed it all over his face. And it was just so funny. My son, when I was weaning him, he didn't want baby food and so he always. His whole face was mucky, so it was silly. They became Goblin, Grub and Grublin Gob. So Grub's real name is Grublin?
- [36:44]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Okay, that's just so adorable. It sounds like Harry Potter characters or something. But what about those early years raising your son? Because I know that you lived not only there, but you were in the Serengeti with your husband and stuff. And so what were those early years like in the wild with him? I mean, I'm thinking diapers, for example. I'm assuming they were cloth diapers and you were washing them somewhere. I mean, I don't know what was the practical life like with a baby out there in the wild?
- [37:18]
Jane Goodall
Well, as we were totally in the wild.
- [37:21]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [37:21]
Jane Goodall
And as it was never really very cold, mostly he was naked.
- [37:26]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [37:27]
Jane Goodall
And it was very interesting because he was naked and he mostly didn't wear diapers or we would call them nappies in England. Yeah. When, you know, when he was in one and he wetted, he hated that feeling. Of course, he was potty trained at one.
- [37:45]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes. Because he was naked all the time.
- [37:48]
Jane Goodall
Yes.
- [37:48]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Okay, so I have to tell you something. So I have two boys, and both of them have summer birthdays, so it was possible for them to go naked a lot during the summer. And that's how I potty trained them, was just get them naked and they sort of become aware of their body and how it feels and so on.
- [38:07]
Jane Goodall
Yeah. And they don't like the wet feeling of a wet diaper.
- [38:11]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
No, they definitely don't. So we were in France on a holiday, and we were staying at a swanky old house that had a lovely salon with tapestries and so on. And my son Charlie, I can't find him, and I go and I find him in the salon squatting on top of a medieval tapestry, taking a poop.
- [38:34]
Jane Goodall
That wasn't very good, was it?
- [38:36]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
No, it wasn't very good, Jane. But I did tell him, oh, good potty, good poop. That's a great poop. And we cleaned it up and it was all okay, but it reminded me of that. So when Grubb reached school age, you sent him to live in England with your mother and that. I can. I just. I can only imagine that that must been a very hard decision to make. How did you come to that decision?
- [39:02]
Jane Goodall
Well, when we were at Gombe, when he was a little bit older, I would spend the morning just going up to chimp camp and talking to the students. But every afternoon was his, and I thought I could homeschool him, but that was not possible. He just. He wouldn't learn from me. So we got a student who wanted to come to Gombe, and so I said okay in return, but you try and teach my son to read and write. Didn't work. So he was 8 years old when I took him to England. And, you know, we're an extended family with mom and her sister. My grandmother was alive and he lived in this. It was. He really was still in an extended family. And then every summer he would come out to Africa, and in the Christmas and spring, they would go to England. So we weren't separated that much.
- [39:59]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I mean, it sounds like you got him in an ideal situation, ultimately, and that it was the right one. Was it hard to do?
- [40:07]
Jane Goodall
Oh, it was horrible.
- [40:08]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [40:09]
Jane Goodall
Awful.
- [40:10]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [40:10]
Jane Goodall
I mean, up until he was three years old, I didn't even leave him for One night we were totally always together.
- [40:18]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [40:18]
Jane Goodall
And then, and then when he was 8, it felt like, you know, I was betraying him. Oh, yes, he was happy, but I wasn't.
- [40:27]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Does he remember that as being a difficult time or does he look back on that as a happy thing?
- [40:33]
Jane Goodall
He doesn't seem to really remember how he felt. I mean, he was going to a little day school, so living with his extended family. A loving grandmother. Yes, a loving great grandmother. A loving great aunt. So, yeah, you know.
- [40:49]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes. One thing I was struck with, Jane, in reading about you and your work and your life is how you have been able to facilitate change in very challenging places with people who are challenging people. You did it multiple times. You did it with Conor CO Phillips, the oil and gas company. You developed that relationship and they helped you build the chimpanzee rehabilitation center. And then you convinced NIH to stop animal testing on chimps. I'm just curious about this, Jane, because in today's world where it seems as if compromise conversation between people of opposing views is hard to come by. I wonder if you have advice about or if you can share your experience as to how you did that successfully.
- [41:47]
Jane Goodall
Well, when I meet somebody who's doing something that I feel is wrong and shouldn't be.
- [41:53]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [41:54]
Jane Goodall
You know, the first time I went into chimpanzee lab, our closest relatives who can live for 60 years in a 5 foot by 5 foot cage with bars all around, I mean, it was so shocking. And I was, I was almost in tears when I came out and all the head people of NIH were sitting around a table.
- [42:17]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [42:17]
Jane Goodall
And I was sat there and I realized they were all waiting for me to talk. So what came to me, some people would have started immediately saying, you know, how can you keep our closest relative? Don't you understand how cruelly and blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, I imagine you're all caring, compassionate people, so probably you all feel the same as I do about what's going on in there. And then I showed them videos of how the chimps actually live in the wild. And I could see, in a way, I could see them thinking in a way they'd never thought before. And it took a very, very long time and many other organizations joined in. But right now there's no medical research going on on chimps. And no, we have to do the same with monkeys because they too are sentient beings and dogs.
- [43:16]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
What you're really talking about is finding common ground.
- [43:20]
Jane Goodall
Something like that. And also I think the key is when you meet people like that it's precious little use arguing with them because they're not going to listen. You've got to reach the heart. And how do you reach the heart? With stories. So luckily, after 90 years, I got many, many stories. So I try and find out a little bit about the person I'm going to meet and try and think of right at the beginning of something, a little story that might reach his heart at the start, make a common ground. And then really important to listen to that person very carefully and see, well, maybe there's something I never thought of as to why they do what they do or think how they think. Anyway, it's worked for me.
- [44:10]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
And you say listen to them really carefully and maybe there's something you hadn't thought of. Can you recall an example of exactly that?
- [44:19]
Jane Goodall
I mean, when you talk to an oil and gas company that's really trying to do things right, like Conoco before it was ConocoPhillips, and I thought, here am I going out to Africa on an airplane. It's using fuel. I'll get there, I'll get in a car, I'll drive to wherever I'm staying. I'm using what they're searching for. So how can I be so hypocritical? And of course, now we're into trying to find alternatives. But back then, yeah. Nobody was right. So I thought, well, as long as I don't compromise my values, let me talk to them, listen to them, understand why they're doing what they do. And you know, people do it to make money, to survive, all sorts of things.
- [45:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah. So you're finding connection.
- [45:09]
Jane Goodall
Yeah, Connection and reaching the heart. I think that if we use head and heart together.
- [45:14]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [45:15]
Jane Goodall
We can achieve our true human potential.
- [45:18]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
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- [50:03]
Jane Goodall
Oh, it was a huge asset, especially in Africa. You know, Africa, Tanzania had been a British protectorate. Big white men coming in and dictating to the Africans how they should live their lives and having all the top jobs. And so a resentment after independence. But being a woman, a frail young girl, they wanted to help me. They weren't threatened by me. And I found it immensely helpful. And I mean, you know, when I first began working with the Geographic and it was a very, very different era, so there were scientists who were jealous and the rumor was going around, well, she's only got that money. She's only on the Geographic cover because she's got nice legs. So now you'd sue that person, right?
- [50:59]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes, of course.
- [51:00]
Jane Goodall
But back then, all I wanted to do was study the chimps. And if my legs were helping me get money to study them, I said, thank you. Legs.
- [51:09]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes, of course. Yes.
- [51:11]
Jane Goodall
And they were nice legs. Let's face it.
- [51:14]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I'm sure they're still nice.
- [51:15]
Jane Goodall
No, they're not. They're old legs.
- [51:18]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, no, but they're.
- [51:19]
Jane Goodall
They are. I'm 90, come on.
- [51:20]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, I know. But they're legs that have brought you far, so I don't want to trash them.
- [51:25]
Jane Goodall
No, they. They still carry me around very happily.
- [51:29]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Right, exactly. Well, Jane, moving on, I would love to talk about your marriages. Can you tell the story of how you met your first husband, Hugo?
- [51:41]
Jane Goodall
How I met Hugo the National Geographic wanted to document what I was discovering about chimpanzees for their magazine. They wanted photos and ultimately film. So they picked, well, Louis Leakey picked Hugo Van Lauig, who was working in Kenya at the time, where Louis Leakey lived And he suggested to the Geographic that Hugo would be the perfect person for them to send out. And so he came. And I resented his coming. But then I soon found that he loved animals as much as I did. He was patient like me. And it was just perfect somehow.
- [52:28]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
And you had obviously a common love of nature. And you read somewhere that you both thought that you could change each other. And you said, you think that that is something that the young people think. That's a thought of the young. Once you learn that you can't change people, all you can do is of course, accept them as they are. How did you learn to accept people as they are? Because it's obviously not an easy thing to do sometimes.
- [53:01]
Jane Goodall
Well, I'm not sure that I always can accept people the way they are. There are certain people that I could never accept the way they are. Certain politicians, for example.
- [53:13]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes. I can't imagine who you might be referring to.
- [53:18]
Jane Goodall
I'm an ngo, we're apolitical.
- [53:20]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes, I understand. We'll just say that. Who shall not be named.
- [53:27]
Jane Goodall
Well, you know, chimpanzees live in a male dominated society and sometimes when the males are competing, they, they swagger, they may shake their fists, they kind of scowl. And that does remind me of some male politicians.
- [53:45]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It does, actually. In fact, it really does. The physical part of it. It certainly does. So, Jane, going back to your early life here for a moment. A few years after Grubb was born, Hugo's work was drawing him back to the Serengeti and you were being called back to Gombe and you ultimately decided your marriage wasn't gonna work. And. And dad divorced when I was quite little. And I think she had a lot of. Or I know actually she had a lot of angst about that. I believe you said you consider the divorce one of your biggest failures and you have guilt about it. Do you still feel that way or have you kind of come to terms with it?
- [54:26]
Jane Goodall
No, I've thought about it so much and I've thought of the reasons why it was the best thing to do.
- [54:33]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [54:34]
Jane Goodall
Not reasons I'm prepared to talk about, but yes, of course there were certain behaviors and certain attitudes that were alien to me and I knew that I'd made the wrong choice. Except it's strange because I married Hugo.
- [54:52]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [54:52]
Jane Goodall
We got photographs and film which helped the world to understand chimps.
- [54:57]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [54:57]
Jane Goodall
So when I married him, I got a son called Grub. Yeah. And. And because I got a son called Grub, I've got three incredible grandchildren.
- [55:10]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes.
- [55:10]
Jane Goodall
And so you see you look back and you say, well, that was the right decision after all.
- [55:17]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
So you've come to terms with it, which is phenomenal. And it doesn't sound like you have any guilt about it anymore. You said you've thought about it a lot, and I'm delighted to hear that because, yes, you're absolutely right. There's so much to celebrate. Out of that relationship was born. So many gifts came out of that relationship. Lucky you.
- [55:38]
Jane Goodall
Lucky me indeed.
- [55:39]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yes. Yes. And I know that your second husband, Derek, tragically passed away just five years after you were married. Grief and loss is something that comes up a lot on this podcast because we're talking to women who have endured loss and walked through grief, given their age. Have your observations of grief in the animal world help you understand your own grief? Because I think the story of that, the one a baby chimp losing his mom, is just mind blowing. Maybe you can tell it.
- [56:16]
Jane Goodall
Yes. Well, he was a mummy's boy. His little baby sister died, and she was old. Flo. Flo. And he was 8 years old by this time. And she took him back, let him ride on her back until he was too heavy and her legs would collapse. And he died about. I can't remember now. A short time after his mother, he stopped eating. And it was definitely dying of grief. And so I think it didn't help me understand my own grief, but it helped me realize that animals feel the same kind of grief as we do. And I'm sure you've experienced deep, deep grief at the loss of a dog that you love.
- [56:59]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, yeah.
- [57:00]
Jane Goodall
And it can be just as strong a grief as if you lose. Probably not a child. I can't imagine losing a child. But, you know, grief is grief. Grief is grief, and it can knock.
- [57:14]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
You out and you have to sort of sit with it, I think. I mean, that's my experience, anyway. I lost my father and I've lost friends and my sister. And when it first comes upon you, it's. It's gutting, but it is.
- [57:30]
Jane Goodall
I felt it when my grandmother died, my mother's mother, but especially when I lost my mother. It was just. And I still feel it.
- [57:39]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Do you?
- [57:40]
Jane Goodall
Yeah. Not the same. I mean, obviously it's different, but I still miss her. Yeah, I bet my sister does, too. We hear her voice sometimes.
- [57:50]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Do you talk about her together?
- [57:52]
Jane Goodall
Yes, we do, sometimes.
- [57:54]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, I bet that's a huge comfort.
- [57:56]
Jane Goodall
Yeah.
- [57:57]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
She's sort of alive in both of you then, I think.
- [57:59]
Jane Goodall
Yes. But, you know, three years ago now, I was asked a question. I'd Never been asked before.
- [58:05]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Tell.
- [58:05]
Jane Goodall
It was a woman in a very big audience of about 10,000 people.
- [58:09]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh.
- [58:10]
Jane Goodall
And there was a Q and A. And she said, what will your next adventure be? Be? I'd never been asked that before. So I thought. And I said, well, if it was 10 years ago and I was, you know, much physically fitter than I could ever be again, I would have said, I want to go to Papua New guinea, where there are mountains and undiscovered species, and I'd love. But I couldn't do that now. So I said, well, I think my next great adventure will be dying. There was a hush, and then a few nervous giggles, and I said, well, when you die, there's either nothing, in which case, okay, nothing, or there's something. And I happen to think there is something because of experiences I've had. And if that's true, what greater adventure can there be than discovering what that something is? And people have come up to me and said, I used to be afraid of dying, but now I'm not afraid anymore. More.
- [59:13]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It's a remarkable thing to frame dying as an adventure. And I mean, really, it's remarkable. It's a wonderful lens. And have you prepared for that next adventure in any way?
- [59:28]
Jane Goodall
No, I just. I. I don't think about it very often. But, yeah, you know, I just live each day. I think I live in the present.
- [59:35]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah, you sure do, Jane Goodall. You sure do. But Jane Fonda was on this podcast, and she does has done something called a life review. She talks about going back in her life, reviewing her life to understand it fully so she can understand where she is now. Has that been the same for you?
- [59:57]
Jane Goodall
No, I don't think so. I mean, I've always lived in the.
- [60:00]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Present, but I get the sense that you have always understood where you were. That's the sense I have.
- [60:06]
Jane Goodall
At a certain point, it hit me, and, you know, this may sound strange, but I truly believe I was put on this planet with a mission. And the mission right now is to give people hope, because if we lose hope, we become apathetic and we don't do anything. And if we don't take action together around the world, then the future is going to be more than grim for our children and great grandchildren.
- [60:38]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well, that makes me cry because you give me hope, and I'm a hopeful person, believe it or not. But you've even inspired me further, and I thank you for that. I really do. I think you're such a magnificent person.
- [60:52]
Jane Goodall
Well, thank you. And, you know, so many People have said, thank you for giving me hope.
- [60:58]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [60:59]
Jane Goodall
And then taking action, doing something about it.
- [61:02]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
And I am totally am taking as much action as I possibly can, believe you. Me?
- [61:07]
Jane Goodall
Yeah, you are.
- [61:09]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
So, Jane, I asked little silly questions just to wrap up our conversation. Is there something you wish you'd gone back and said yes to in your life?
- [61:22]
Jane Goodall
Something I wish I'd said yes to? No. I think I said yes at the right times.
- [61:28]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
That's what I thought you'd say. I think you've always said yes to just the right things. That's the sense. Well, Jane Goodall, thank you for being with us today. This has been a true delight and a profound honor for everybody who works on wiser than me, because you are, in fact, much wiser than all of us. Thank you.
- [61:52]
Jane Goodall
It's been wonderful talking with you and sharing some things. And it was fun, too.
- [61:59]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It was fun.
- [62:00]
Jane Goodall
Yeah.
- [62:00]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I enjoyed it very, very much. So I give you my love. Thank you so, so much.
- [62:04]
Jane Goodall
And love back to you.
- [62:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Thank you, dear Jane.
- [62:07]
Jane Goodall
Okay, bye. Bye.
- [62:09]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Bye. Well, it's only episode one, and I'm already in tears. Oh, my God. I know. My mom is so excited to hear about this conversation. So let's get her on the zoom right away. Hi, mama.
- [62:27]
Judith Bowles
Oh, hi, love.
- [62:28]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Don't you look nice?
- [62:29]
Judith Bowles
Thank you. Thank you.
- [62:31]
Jane Goodall
Thank you.
- [62:31]
Judith Bowles
I have a new T shirt on.
- [62:33]
Jane Goodall
Green.
- [62:34]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
It's so great. You match your bookshelves behind you.
- [62:37]
Judith Bowles
I think I've camouflaged.
- [62:40]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
You've been styled by costume and set designer by a librarian. You look very good. I love it.
- [62:52]
Judith Bowles
Thanks, dear. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so happy to hear that. And you, too, look beautiful.
- [62:57]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Thank you.
- [62:58]
Judith Bowles
And I cannot wait to hear about your interviewee today.
- [63:03]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Well, mom, Jane Goodall, of course, I started crying at the end because I love her so much and what she's done for the world and for human beings and for animals. And, mom, can you believe her name? Goodall? You know, I had this acting teacher who used to say, pay attention to the names that Shakespeare gives to his characters because it tells you so much. And her name is Goodall. And then at the end of the conversation, she was talking about hope and how hope requires activism. To be hopeful requires doing. And, mom, get a load of this. So when she first went to Tanzania and she was in Gombe studying the chimps, she was 26 years old. It was required for her to have a chaperone. So her mother was her chaperone around.
- [64:03]
Judith Bowles
Oh.
- [64:03]
Jane Goodall
So.
- [64:04]
Judith Bowles
And what kind of relationship did she have with her mother?
- [64:06]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Very close.
- [64:07]
Judith Bowles
Oh, great.
- [64:08]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
So she and her mom lived in a tent. Mom. In the Tanzanian jungle for months.
- [64:16]
Judith Bowles
That's incredible. Incredible. How old was her mother at the time, I wonder?
- [64:20]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
56. Gosh, that's.
- [64:24]
Judith Bowles
Yeah, right?
- [64:25]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Isn't that amazing, Mom?
- [64:26]
Judith Bowles
Yeah, that's amazing.
- [64:28]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Paula wants me to ask you what it would be like if you and I were in a tent together for four months.
- [64:36]
Judith Bowles
Well, you know what, what we could find out.
- [64:42]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I mean, are you inviting me to pitch a tent?
- [64:45]
Judith Bowles
We've got a state park here. We can. You know, we have to keep out of the way of the hunters because the hunters come by three times a week and they. They have bows and arrows, so it's a little dangerous.
- [64:56]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
First of all, we're going to start by arguing where we pitch the tent, because I'm not pitching a tent in the state park where there are people with bows and arrows.
- [65:03]
Judith Bowles
Yeah, well, see, what you want is a state park that has a Four Seasons very close by.
- [65:11]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I would like a tent where I could call with a phone. I could call and get room service and turn down service and stuff like that. That would work well for us, Mom.
- [65:19]
Judith Bowles
Sure, sure. A little massage every now and then. I'm not against it. So tell Paula that if she and I want to go, if she wants to find a tent being there with me, I'm willing to try it. And we'll keep a journal and we'll let Julia know how we're doing.
- [65:38]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
I actually. I think we should bring Paula in. Okay, you guys, Paula Kaplan is my longtime best friend who actually makes this show with me. Paula, you need to come onto the Zoom right now, and you need to start making plans with my mom because it looks like you're going to be spending some time together in a tent.
- [65:56]
Jane Goodall
Yeah, Judy, exactly. You know, as long as we've got a little, you know, deodorizer to spray around so we don't have a stinky tent. It'll be all good.
- [66:04]
Judith Bowles
Oh. Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. No aerosol, nothing like that.
- [66:08]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, boy. Already there's a conflict.
- [66:11]
Judith Bowles
And we'll get. We'll get some lavender leaves or something.
- [66:14]
Jane Goodall
Perfect, perfect.
- [66:16]
Judith Bowles
And we'll do that for four months. And it'll be so.
- [66:20]
Jane Goodall
Yeah, it'll be so traumatized.
- [66:22]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Oh, my God.
- [66:23]
Jane Goodall
Julia. We'll let you know how that goes.
- [66:25]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Thanks. I appreciate it. I'll just be a phone call away. All right. Love you, Mommy. I'm going to now say goodbye to you, and I'm going to call you later today as a matter of fact to check in.
- [66:38]
Judith Bowles
Okay, that's lovely. I love you.
- [66:40]
Jane Goodall
Sweet.
- [66:40]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Bye Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple, you can listen to every episode of season three A.D. free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram, Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamilah zara Williams, Alex McOen and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of New Content, and our SVP of Weekly content and production is Steam Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Joni Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. Hey Wiser Than Me listeners, we want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best and even better. Once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a $100 Visa gift card. The survey is short and sweet and will help us play ads you don't.
- [68:43]
Judith Bowles
Want to skip and keep bringing you content you love.
- [68:46]
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Just go to lemonadamedia.com survey lemonadamedia.com survey.