Julia Gets Wise with Joan Baez

Summary

Podcast Summary: Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode: Julia Gets Wise with Joan Baez
Date: May 27, 2026
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Joan Baez
Producer: Lemonada Media

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Episode Overview

In the Season 4 opener, Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down with legendary folk singer and lifelong activist Joan Baez, now 85. Their rich, intimate conversation explores Joan’s journey as an artist and activist, her evolution as a woman, her struggles with mental health, and the enduring wisdom she’s gathered across decades at the heart of social movements. This episode dives into how Joan’s artistry and activism are inextricably entwined, the complexities of aging, and how she’s navigated personal healing and forgiveness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Joys and Realities of Aging

[07:11 - 08:34]

• Joan is 85 but feels like she's in her 70s.
• On the best parts: "You have accumulated a lifetime of stuff... connections, people. There's no denying that you earn something in those years." (Joan Baez, 07:29)
• On the hard parts: “I don't like my wrinkles... I try [to make friends with them], but there you are.”
• Joan has not opted for plastic surgery, though she's joked about it: "Like every woman, I go to the mirror and I take my cheeks and I push them back..." (Joan Baez, 08:14)

2. Self-Care: Dancing & Posture

[09:00 - 12:28]

• A German medium once told Joan: "You're here to be an activist, you were here to sing... but the real reason the Lord put you on this earth was to dance."
• Dancing brings her freedom and is a natural, daily form of self-care.
• Joan also emphasizes posture: she uses a timer to regularly realign her body, focusing on head and neck position.

3. The Voice as a Gift

[12:31 - 17:47]

• Joan sees her voice as a "gift" and her primary job as its maintenance and delivery.
• She was not selected for her school’s singing group at age 13—a pivotal moment that drove her to develop her signature vibrato.
• As she aged, vocal training became essential: “In my mid-30s, the notes weren’t coming out as easily... I thought, ‘What’s going on?’ … So I found a coach, and began the process.” (Joan Baez, 16:11)
• Now, with a lower range, she embraces the change: “That’s such a good life lesson, too… if you can pivot with the change, you can find a new, incredible thing.” (Julia, 17:47)

4. Early Influences & Breakthrough

[18:05 - 22:18]

• Seeing Pete Seeger as a teen changed her musical direction.
• Joan’s early academic struggles and lack of conventional schooling led instead to an immersive experience in Cambridge’s folk scene.
• She worked odd jobs, including teaching Vespa riding, before singing at Club 47 for $10 a night.

5. Instant Fame & “The Struggle for Purity”

[28:34 - 31:05]

• Joan’s 1959 Newport Folk Festival appearance made her an immediate phenomenon, leading (reluctantly) to the Time magazine cover at age 21.
• She struggled with commercial pressures, setting strict rules to maintain authenticity.

6. Activism Roots & Family Dynamics

[31:05 - 35:01]

• Joan’s parents fostered a socially conscious environment; she, her mother, and her sister were jailed in the 1960s for draft resistance.
• On activism: “If the law isn’t any good, then you should break it.” (Joan Baez, 31:33)

7. Childhood Abroad and Empathy

[35:01 - 39:04]

• Living in Baghdad as a child deeply affected her, fostering empathy for the underprivileged.
• She and Julia share stories of navigating poverty as expat children.
• Joan sings a Tunisian song, demonstrating how her musical gifts intersect with her lived experiences abroad. (See 39:06 - 40:22)

8. Family, Guilt, and Forgiveness

[40:22 - 44:45]

• Joan felt guilt over her success compared to her sisters.
• Therapy taught her incremental forgiveness: “Forgiveness is on a dimmer... you can do a little bit at a time.” (Joan Baez, 42:05)

9. The Civil Rights Movement & Dr. King

[46:41 - 51:42]

• Joan shared the stage with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. at the 1963 March on Washington and recalls their friendship.
• She reflects on his humor, fatigue, and profound courage:
  • “Every time I say the word ‘nonviolent,’ she starts to cry.” (Dr. King, as remembered by Baez, 51:02)
• Joan details moments behind the scenes: “He told off color jokes from the airport... and laughing hysterically.” (Joan Baez, 49:41)

10. Courage, Risk, and Activism Across Generations

[52:17 - 57:57]

• Joan sees courage as something found by reconnecting with oneself, sometimes feeling "brave but stupid” (52:40).
• She notes differences in activism risk today vs. the 1960s, acknowledging the increased dangers.
• Expresses both frustration and understanding over why some contemporary artists remain “silent about the current assault on democracy.”
• Celebrates young artists like Brandi Carlile and Maggie Rogers for their openness. “I sort of cock my head at these stadiums filled with brilliant young women songwriters and why can’t they just take that little step?” (57:49)

11. Personal Relationships and Motherhood

[59:59 - 64:54]

• For Joan, intimacy with an audience has always been easier than with individuals: "The easiest kind of relationship is with 10,000 people. The hardest one is with one.” (62:16)
• She candidly discusses struggles in marriage and parenting, her role as a grandmother, and working through family therapy: “Gabe and I have really become friends... we’ve done a lot of work together and we are close.” (Joan Baez, 63:51)

12. Mental Health, Trauma, and Healing

[64:56 - 73:34]

• Baez details the discovery of childhood abuse and her resulting dissociative identity disorder (“multiple personality”).
• Describes "alters" (alternative personalities) as a defense against trauma, and the pain of integrating/letting go of them.
• “That’s how I feel… beholden to my crew of alters.” (Joan Baez, 73:00)
• Therapy, self-awareness, and gradual forgiveness—of herself and her parents—were central to her healing.

13. Loss and Spirituality

[73:34 - 75:58]

• The loss of her beloved sister Mimi: “When she was well into it and she felt as though she really needed to let go, she called us all in... said, is this okay with everybody? I’d like to end this.” (74:37)
• As the “last one standing” in her immediate family, Joan says: “Sometimes I just sort of commune with them, whether they’re there or not, to say some of the things I didn’t say.” (75:27)
• On spirituality: not religious, but firmly believes in a higher power.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On perspective and priorities
  "No, no, it's a happy story. My son and my wife survived. Everything important made it out." (George McGovern story, as told by Julia, 04:40)

• On the gift of voice
  "My job has been maintenance and delivery, but the rest is kind of a magical thing that I was born with. I barely consider it my own..." (Joan Baez, 12:46)

• On forgiveness
  "Forgiveness is on a dimmer... you can do a little bit at a time." (Joan Baez, 42:05)

• On courage
  "On those marches, that's when you need courage, is when you're scared." (Joan Baez, 51:42)

• On risk in activism
  "Social change on a large scale does not happen until people are willing to take a risk." (Joan Baez, 53:17)

• On relationships
  "The easiest kind of relationship for me is with 10,000 people. The hardest one is with one.” (Joan Baez, 62:16)

• On trauma and healing
  "That's how I feel... beholden to my crew of alters." (Joan Baez, 73:00)

• On legacy and spirituality
  "Sometimes I just sorta commune with them, whether they’re there or not, to say some of the things I didn’t say or didn’t get to say when they were alive." (75:27)

• Musical moments

  • Sings a Tunisian song from childhood abroad (39:06)
  • Closes with a deeply moving rendition of “Wade in the Water” (77:49 – 78:43)

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Key Musical Performances

• Tunisian folk song – [39:06]
• “Wade in the Water” – [77:49 – 78:43]

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Moments of Humor and Humanity

• Julia and Joan's self-deprecating banter about wrinkles and plastic surgery ("Do I have to do anything now or—No, we're done. Thank you for being here!" 06:57–07:04)
• Joan's Vespa teaching mishap and post-crash cigarette (20:56)
• Joan missing not being picked for her school singing group and inventing her own vibrato (13:47–14:17)
• The playful back-and-forth about who said "Pain saves us" (76:14)

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Reflections on Inter-generational Wisdom

• Post-interview, Julia debriefs with her own mother, Judith Bowles, reflecting on Joan’s transformational wisdom, forgiveness, and the evolution of her voice and spirit.

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Final Takeaways

Joan Baez’s story is one of transformation, resilience, and the refusal to separate art from activism. Through candid reflection, humor, poignant musical performances, and unflinching honesty about her struggles and growth, Baez embodies the unapologetic wisdom this series seeks to capture. Listeners are left with hard-won insights into aging, healing, and making peace with the past—while never sitting out the present.

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For more behind-the-scenes and additional content from this episode, including exclusive clips and insights, visit:
wiserthanme.substack.com

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Note:
Timestamps reference the full, unedited episode. Ad breaks and podcast credits were omitted.

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Lemonada. When I was on Saturday Night Live back in the day, we had some amazing hosts. I mean, we had Lily Tomlin and Robin Williams and Terry Garr and Ringo Starr and lots of others. We also had a couple of non showbiz hosts. One of them was Senator George McGovern. Now, George McGovern's run for president was before my time. I mean, I was alive in 1972, of course, but I was a little kid when McGovern lost every state but Massachusetts and Washington, D.C. to Richard Nixon. That loss was so catastrophic that even more than a decade later, when he hosted snl, he was still something of a national punchline. I mean, he'd kind of been redeemed when Nixon went on to be an horrendous president, driven out of office by hubris and corruption and scandal. You know, back when stuff like that could actually hurt your political career. But I think he was still mostly remembered as this huge loser with a thin, reedy, Midwestern voice. So when he showed up at 30 Rock and he was 6 foot 1 and he was tan and lanky and handsome and smart and funny, it was a bit of a surprise. I remember almost nothing about the show that week. Actually, I do remember there was sort of a what if sketch where Carl Sagan shows us what would have happened if McGovern had beaten Nixon. But the thing I remember most is late one night we were hanging out, probably in my then boyfriend, now husband Brad's office. And Brad loved McGovern more than anybody. And anyway, so we were all there together, just shooting the shit. And McGovern was sitting on the desk and he told us this story. His condo in Washington where he lived with his wife had burned down in a terrible fire. His son Stephen was staying with him. And somehow Senator McGovern and his wife and Stephen were all able to get out of the burning building. But everything was lost, including his official papers and family photos, records of his military service. Nixon had tried to make McGovern out to be a peacenik, by the way. McGovern was a genuine war hero. He flew 35 combat missions in World War II and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for saving his entire crew. So this fire destroyed all the records from a quarter century as a U.S. senator. It just destroyed everything. And he very simply and movingly told us the story. And he was spellbinding. And when he finished, it was silent until somebody said, oh, how tragic. And Senator McGovern wiped away a tear, and he said, no, no, it's a happy story. My son and my wife survived. Everything important made it out. Oh, man. Priorities, right? How thrilled and lucky we are that today we talk to a woman who definitely has her priorities straight. And God knows that's not easy. She's worked hard to do that. Joan Baez. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfuss and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. On August 28, 1963, Dr. Martin Luther King gave the greatest speaker of the 20th century to a quarter million people on the National Mall. The I have a dream speech. Just a few minutes before Dr. King began that day, a 22 year old woman walked out onto the same stage in front of that immense crowd, barefoot, in a patchwork shift dress, a guitar slung over her shoulder, and began to sing We Shall Overcome. Yeah, she was basically a kid just out of college, but she'd been protesting for civil rights since high school. She'd already refused to play segregated venues, and she'd already been on the COVID of Time magazine. Joan Baez was already a problem for the establishment. For Joan Baez, music and activism are not separate things. For 60 years, her activism has never stopped. And that voice. That voice is at the center of her argument. Civil rights, the draft, the war, the environment, indigenous peoples, people's rights, women's rights. She has long been a force for change while also being the most famous folk singer on earth. What her biography doesn't always include is what it cost her. For decades, the music and the movement asked everything of her, leaving little room for the quieter work of tending to herself. Joan long suffered from anxiety and depression, an interior war that she finally, in her 50s, decided to put her energy toward. In her quest to heal, she found comfort in her art, her poetry, her painting, upside down drawings. She found solace. In 2023, she handed three documentary filmmakers the keys to her personal archive. Family films, journals, therapy recordings. The result is an excellent documentary, I Am a Noise executive, produced by Patti Smith. Joan is a close friend and collaborator of Dolores Huertas and showed up to a no Kings rally alongside Jane Fond. All wiser than Me Vets. Joan Baez sits at the epicenter of an old lady army that has refused to go home. They are our front lines. Nine Grammy nominations, a lifetime achievement award from the Recording Academy, the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, a Kennedy Center Honors. And then there is the song Diamonds and Rust, which is one of the greatest breakup songs in the American songbook. So please welcome Mother and Abuela, Activist, artist and an absolute icon who is wiser than me. Joan Baez. Welcome, Joan.

[Joan Baez]

Wow. Do I have to do anything now or.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, we're done. Thank you for being here. It was a delight.

[Joan Baez]

It's been great knowing you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Fantastic. So, Joan, are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

[Joan Baez]

Yes, I am. I'm 85. 85.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And how old do you feel?

[Joan Baez]

Probably in my 70s.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. Early 70s, something like that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What do you think the best part about being your age is right now?

[Joan Baez]

Well, there's the best part and there's a difficult part.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Joan Baez]

The best part is what everybody talks about. That you have accumulated, you know, a lifetime of stuff.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

Information. Some good. Some feelings, emotions, connections, people. There's no denying that you earn something in those years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, but what's the. You said there's a worse part, There's a downside.

[Joan Baez]

You know, I don't like my wrinkles. I mean, some women say, oh, I made friends with my wrinkles. I really haven't. There's things. Yeah, I try, but there you are. That's not so bad, is it?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, it's not so bad. But it's refreshing to hear you say that. Have you ever thought about getting plastic surgery?

[Joan Baez]

Not really sure. I mean, like every woman, I go to the mirror and I take my cheeks and I push them back, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, of course.

[Joan Baez]

That's what I. That's what I would look like. But no. Yeah. I think about taking a slice out of that flesh that's hanging over my eyelids and then I changed my mind.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, but you look fantastic, if you don't mind my saying. I mean, you really, as they say, you're aging very beautifully. And I know that you. One thing that stood out in researching you and your life is that you bring a lot of intention to taking care of yourself. Your physical self, your mental health. And I understand that dancing. Is that part of your self care routine.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. I met a guy in Germany, was a medium, and somebody had suggested that I talk to this guy. So I gave him all the information. He did this chart, you know, big charts about which I know nothing. And then he came and talked to me. I said, well, what did you find out? And he said, you know, he's supposed to pardon me look at the chart, figure something out. He said he had to look down inside the chart to get any idea what was going on because it was so full. And so he told me a lot of things that I don't remember. But the last and most important thing he said was the real reason. Yes, you were Here to paint? Yes. You were here to draw. You're here to be an activist. You were here to sing. But the real reason the Lord put you on this earth was to dance. And I love that because the dancing is where my freedom comes. It's where everything else disappears, the troubles disappear. And I love that movement. I love the music and I love to dance.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you do that like every day? I do some, like very intentionally.

[Joan Baez]

Not intentionally, it just sort of comes naturally and I have the music on. Then I don't have to think about what other exercise I'm going to do. I've just done it. And most pleasurable way, by the way,

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

when you go to a medium and you say you gave them information about yourself, are you always suspicious of that because you're a famous person? I mean, in other words, as opposed to just somebody that he wouldn't naturally know?

[Joan Baez]

No, and he's the only one I've ever talked to and it was somebody else's suggestion. So I don't do that as a rule.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. I don't mean I'm suspicious of all of it. And then I take what I think sounds good. Yeah, I throw all the rest out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I've done that. I've been to like psychics and sometimes I'm sort of gobsmacked by whatever it is they say. And sometimes I'm. But I don't take it too seriously. But yeah, you take away what you feel is appropriate or whatever, especially if

[Joan Baez]

they give you some grim information, then you just skip it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, skip it. Drop it. Drop it from the hard drive altogether. And you also said that posture is at the base of everything you do. Talk about why posture is so important. I say sitting up. God, I have the worst posture.

[Joan Baez]

I mean, you know about the core. Right. And holding yourself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Joan Baez]

And there are just certain techniques from different things that I've studied. And there see something where I would study because it really, really interests me. And sitting and hold the neck a certain way and it's kind of constant. And what I do is I set my watch for, oh, say 20 minutes, 25 minutes. And every time it's buzzes, I do, you know, I realign my body, my neck and my head, etc. So that I keep it on as much a constant basis as I can.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, that is a lot of posture work. How do you realign it?

[Joan Baez]

I mean, what I studied is it's the neck going down. You hold your head a certain way and you readjust your shoulders and you can find People who will teach you that. And then you just have to do it, and you have to remind yourself because, you know, as you said, if you start slow, then it's honey, I know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly. I just schlumped over for Joan. So I'm making a note to myself. I'm going to work on my posture. I really have to do that. I'm very hunched over.

[Joan Baez]

Oh, God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you described your beautiful voice as a gift, something in fact given to you. Can you talk about the framing of that, how you came to frame your voice that way as a gift?

[Joan Baez]

Oh, that's simple. Tell that. I don't really take credit for it. I kind of say that my job has been maintenance and delivery, but the rest is kind of a magical thing that I was born with. And it is a gift. I barely consider it my own, and thus I just keep working with it. And I love listening to the early music, to the early songs when I was a high, high soprano.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

And I think, my God, that's astonishing what that young girl did. And then, you know, I've enjoyed my voice over the years. I've enjoyed being in the studio, I've enjoyed being on the stage and, you know, hearing. Hearing what somebody gave me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, but is it something that you knew from a very early age that you had?

[Joan Baez]

No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you didn't?

[Joan Baez]

No. When I was in junior high school, I didn't make the triple trio of girls because my voice wasn't substantial enough.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Stop.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, I was 13 or 14. And so I literally, I went home and stood in front of the mirror and I wobbled my Adam's apple up and down with my finger, started developing vibrato. And I did that long enough. It began happening on its own. And that is. I mean, I probably would have come later, but I don't know. It was a straight flat little. Very true on the note, but. And then I started wobbling my Adam's

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

apple around to develop vibrato at age 13. I mean, if those women are listening to this podcast right now, they didn't pick Joan Baez for their group.

[Joan Baez]

No, they didn't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's bananas. That's crazy. So when you would perform as a young woman, as a young person, were you satisfied with your performance? Were you critical of your. Were you normally came to a feeling of satisfaction or were you. Did you criticize yourself?

[Joan Baez]

I was very critical of myself. And on the other hand, I think at the end of a concert, for the most part, I thought, wow, you know, that was pretty good. The self doubt was More about other stuff. But the voice was true, and I knew I could count on that. Even when I was nervous, Got terrible stage fright.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

But I'd ask somebody, just sort of pick me up and shove me onto the stage and get to the microphone, and then it would happen. And then I'd sing, you know. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Can you describe the change in your voice? What actually happens to the voice as you age? Actually, I'm curious about that. What are those dynamics?

[Joan Baez]

Well, like all the other muscles, it starts to lose its tightness. It starts to get floppy, and in the end, it'll do that anyway, but less if you keep working on it. If you keep tightening those muscles and cooperating with them and exercising them in different ways, if you have a good coach, you'll exercise them better than if you had a lousy coach. But I would tell you that in the mid-30s, I didn't know it was happening. The notes weren't coming out as easily because when I started singing and started in public, the voice was so easy. It just came out anyway.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was just there.

[Joan Baez]

It was just there. And then all of a sudden, yoohoo. Surprise, surprise. It was getting harder to make those notes. They weren't sounding like I wanted them to sound. And I thought, what's going on here? And somebody said, well, you ought to go and see a coach. And I thought, ha ha ha. Me miss natural talent. And so guess what I did. I went and found somebody and began the process, which I've stuck with until fairly recently. And I don't bother trying to reach high notes anymore. That's what the battle was for, to keep them capable of getting me up in the higher range. Lower range is okay now. It's just. It's called a chest voice.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. So you were in your 30s when you first started real vocal training with a coach. Did you say 30s?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Joan Baez]

That's incredible.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All that. That he massive career before even any sort of formal training. It was just so natural. Yeah. That's quite remarkable. Are you still working with a vocal coach now?

[Joan Baez]

No, because I have a different range. I have. They gonna let nobody turn me around Turn me around, turn me around. And that's all the low part. But I can't go up there. Thank you. And see when I finally decided, okay, those notes that I've been longing for are no longer available to me. Okay, what is. And the little notes I just sang, you are there. And I don't have to exercise them. My vocal cords can flop around as much as they want. And that lower voice keeps coming out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, God, that's so great. And that's such a good life lesson, too. You know, things change as you age, obviously. But if you can pivot with the change, you can find a new, incredible thing. So it seems you were 13 years old when your aunt took you and your sister Mimi to see Pete Seeger.

[Joan Baez]

Because they were afraid I'd never listen to anything but rhythm and blues. And Mother said, oh, they're all a bunch of dope addicts. And I said, they are not. I didn't know what a dope addict was, but whatever. She said, you know, at any rate, my auntie said, okay, we're going to take her to a Pete Seeger concert and show it, you know, what music could really be. And I always look at it as though it was like a vaccine. And after Pete, then it was Odetta and Harry Belafonte. And that's where I would spend hours and hours of time learning their songs. And then it moved into ballads. And I did nothing but lie on my back with a guitar on my chest and play the songs and learn new ones and learn new ones.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Pete Seeger's voice reminds me of my parents, actually. Cause they used to play him a lot. But anyway, between then and the Newport folk Festival at 18, you became a performer, but you were also going to school. So how'd you manage that? How did you do school? And this phenomenal music and performance at the same time. How'd you pull that off?

[Joan Baez]

I wasn't really going to school. I was, you know, my grades were so terrible when I got out of school. High school at my poor parents, looking around, where. Where can this girl go to school? And it kind of got rejected from everywhere. So they were thinking, oh, well, we'll go that. We'll go the artsy craftsy. And they took me to Bennington, I think, to talk to some poor woman who had sit in a room with me and say things like, what are your study habits? Like. I said, well, I don't have any. And I'll tell you how that meeting ended was it was my mother and father, my sister Mimi and myself. And I was just dodging questions. I just didn't want anything to do with it. And my sister Mimi knew how to swallow air and make her tummy rumble. So all of a sudden the woman said, oh, you must be getting hungry now. Yes, it's about lunchtime. And that was the end of the meeting. That was it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I thought you were going to say Mimi swallowed air. And she belched really loud. My sister can do that, by the way.

[Joan Baez]

Well, she's done that, too. I can, too. But she was being delicate. It just made her tummy rumble. So that. No, that's about the level. I was with school. Not interested. But I was living at home and allegedly going to school so my parents would be okay with my leaving the house. And I was hanging around Harvard Square, you know, fell in love with a Harvard student and ran around in the snow and sang at Club 47 on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And actually, my first job was teaching people how to ride Vespas at the Boston Vespa Company. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No way.

[Joan Baez]

Yes, ma'. Am. It was not an easy job. The first woman I took out there, she said, I want to learn how to ride the Vespa. I said, okay, I'll show you. I had no idea what I was doing. This is the first woman. I mean, I knew how to drive them. And I said, listen, if anything happens, you pull this gear in and you put your foot there. And I repeated that about 20 times. I thought, well, that'll be. You know, that's going to work. And so she pulled that in and pushed that and went turn and flip and threw her onto the road. And the vest was in the middle of the road going like that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Joan Baez]

So she sat down on the curb, and I sat down next to her, and she had a cigarette, and I said, can I have. I didn't smoke. She said, do you want a cigarette? And I said, yeah, big time. So anyway, so that was my.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's your Vespa experience. Experience.

[Joan Baez]

It's my Vespa experience. Actually, it was my second job because the first one was being a house mother to blind children at the Perkins Institute for the blind for 24 7. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Joan Baez]

So those are my two jobs. And during that time, I started singing at Club 47. I see. And they would give me $10 a night. And then it went up to 15, and I just felt I was the richest thing going. You're learning my real history of the beginning of my career.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's time to take a break. My conversation with Joan Baez continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter on substack where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Joan and more. You can subscribe now at wiser than me.substack.com. you'll get photos, videos, letters from me. You know, just think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast. It's a really deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other wiser than me listeners. I hope you [e-mail] and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know how we have days on the calendar, Earth Day, Valentine's Day, and then some things get a hold month. Black History Month, Breast Cancer Awareness Month. There's even a fashion in Colonial Virginia Month. But May is one of those months. It's a really important one because it's Mental Health Awareness Month. 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[Joan Baez]

Well, see, I don't know how that happens.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, but I mean, like, obviously you nailed it. And then, like, what happened? Producers come to you right away and say, make these albums.

[Joan Baez]

I think the press came first. You know, that's what shocked me was, you know, there was. That was overnight and already the international stuff already began at that point. But I was a phenomenon. And they happen periodically and everybody jumps on them. And then the trick is, how do you maintain your sanity? And I went overboard in the direction of not wanting to be commercial. I mean, it's kind of stunted me in a way because I was afraid that I would go commercial, quote unquote, and not be pure to myself and to the music. So those are the stringent rules I'd set up for myself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, it's funny. Cause I was listening to some clip of you. You were talking. Because you were on the COVID of Time magazine when you were 21. And you were talking about your sort of interior struggle about agreeing to be on the COVID or not. And I know that you didn't like the painting that was of you on the COVID of Time magazine. It was a painting of you. That, by the way, is now, I think, in the National Gallery.

[Joan Baez]

It is, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So I know you didn't like it then. Do you like it now as a piece of art?

[Joan Baez]

I do. But at that age, I was way too vain to have somebody make me look like, you know, depressed, old, whatever. Yeah. So I. No, I wanted to look pretty. That did not look pretty. So who wants that, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. Was that something you were aware of, your looks when you were going out there? Was that something that was very much. Was that an awareness you had?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. And I did not think I looked very good, so. Oh, really? Well, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What woman does? Oh, my God.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, exactly. It's exactly that. It's just that. And I know it wasn't sufficient for myself in most ways. In fact, as we're talking, I would say the only way I really. The only thing I really was sure of was that voice coming out. Never mind, you know, the stage fright and all arrests. I knew that. And then later on, it was the politics that I was steady there. I knew what I was doing. And all the other things were, in a sense, questioning.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Joan Baez]

Questioning them all the time. How I looked and how I presented myself to people and what they thought of me and so on, but in the politics, fuck em, you know, I knew what I was doing and kind of the same thing with the voice.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I know that your mom, well, your parents were. Your mother was especially radical, right?

[Joan Baez]

Well, no, she wouldn't have put herself. She was a pacifist.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, she was, well, radical in her pacifism, shall we say.

[Joan Baez]

I don't think either my parents was particularly radical. They were social minded. They were willing to take risks. I think my father's difficulty with me was that I was too radical. So he was a little bit concerned about it because in his mind I a good American citizen and about breaking the law. And then, you know, I tell him something about law. If the law isn't any good, then you should break it. And so he was back and forth on this, but he was an activist, social activist. And yeah, he got me in my first demonstration. It was against bomb shelters and somebody was dropping water balloons on our heads. So he was out there willing, you know, willing to be a professor at Stanford. And that's the only, you know, he was the only one who would do something like that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But you were arrested with your mother, weren't you, in 1967, correct?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, and my sister. And it was for aiding and abetting the draft resistance. And we were arrested early in the morning at the induction center. And the point was to be there to block the entrance to the induction center because these kids at 5 o' clock in the morning is supposed to show up and they're really, really young and they're really, really scared. And we would say, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to do this. And then we'd point there's a place they could go and talk to people about resistance, about going to Canada, about going underground, get information. And most of them never thought of anything except going through, you know, with the, with the process. And I've seen a couple of kids who at that moment thought, oh, oh my goodness, and change their minds. That was really hard to do at that young age, but that's what we were doing out there. And my mom and my sister were sitting out there doing that little demonstration. We got picked up. We knew, we did. We knew we would go to jail. Yeah. And so that was fine. But my mom, she was exceptional. I mean, we went to jail twice. The first time it was maybe 15 women or something. Next time there were 60 of us and a much longer stay. It was three months, I can't remember. Wow. We didn't stay that long. They kicked my mom and me out because they figured whatever political action was going on in that jail must have. Because of me, and it wasn't at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It must have been a very bonding thing to have that experience with your mother. I mean, what a remarkable woman to get out there and get arrested with her daughters. Right?

[Joan Baez]

That's true. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

And of my sister, too. Yeah. In the meantime, by the way, I was running the Institute for the Study of Nonviolence. And while my mom and I were in prison, my father, you know, started teaching there, so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, I know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So they were activists.

[Joan Baez]

Come on. They were. No, you said radical.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Joan Baez]

I guess that's radical. A housewife going to jail.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It feels a little radical in the best possible way. You moved around a lot as a kid, which I understand was sort of a difficult thing, and I think you were in Baghdad. Yes.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, we spent a year in Baghdad, Iraq, and I was 10 and 11. It's a thing that's ingrained in you one way or another for all years following it. I know that my distance from other kids came a little bit then because I was in Baghdad, and I'm writing my schoolmates all about these, you know, these things that I saw and that I felt, and they never answered. And I realized years later they had no way to. To understand what I was talking about.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Joan Baez]

And so they, you know, they got back to their lives with their friends and kind of didn't, and I wasn't able to remain a part of that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's interesting, because when I was little, I moved around a lot. I was in. We lived in Sri Lanka, and we lived in Tunisia and Colombia. And there was a lot of poverty, too, that I witnessed when I was there.

[Joan Baez]

Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And as a child, that's a rough thing to absorb. It doesn't mean you shouldn't see it, but it has challenges. Right.

[Joan Baez]

It's very difficult if you have a sensitive heart, and my sisters and I did. So you just take it in and do the best you can with it. And, you know, we were always sneaking out, trying to give money to the beggars and.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

You know, because it was hard to watch.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And it's funny you say sneaking out because. Were your parents opposed to you giving money to people who were begging just out of curiosity?

[Joan Baez]

No, they were. They weren't. But I guess it felt as though we were sneaking because it wasn't what the neighbors were doing. It wasn't what Baghdadis are doing, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, right. Did you develop a kind of sense of responsibility to others based on all of that travel and witnessing those less fortunate.

[Joan Baez]

Absolutely. I identified with. You know, I remember one time. It's a little bit on the mystical side, but I was, I think, 10, 11, 12, something. Bring it on. And I was in a train, and either another train, and it's probably all fog in my mind now, but I saw a little girl my age, and I thought, well, that she's me. And that if anybody tried to hurt her, it would be the same as trying to hurt me. And people shouldn't be hurting each other. I mean, a whole thing came out of that experience, I think, in experiences like that, that I was intertwined with people. And at that point, mainly with kids. With children.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I had this experience when I was in Tunisia, actually, where this girl who was also my age came to this gate of this place we were living in with a bunch of other people, and she was begging. And because I think. Because I recognized that she was the peace or my age, I gave her my shoes. And then I went into the house and I snuck. That's why I asked you the question. I snuck food out and brought it to her. Cause we had been told not to give to people who were begging because it was sort of a bottomless pit. And then it would.

[Joan Baez]

Right, right. But that was the line.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that was the line. And so she took it all. And then the very next day, there was like, triple the amount of people there that she had brought with her. So it was a hard thing to understand at that age. It's a hard thing to understand now as an adult, you know, let's face it, right?

[Joan Baez]

And you probably went on impossible and sneaked out more money and gave it to the beggars, because it's impossible to not do. Especially as a kid.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's impossible. And I remember getting vitamins, thinking that vitamins would be good, you know?

[Joan Baez]

No, they would take the garbage cans, and we would start putting. My sisters and I would put food up in a tree in a bag so they could get it before the dogs did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh. A lot of thought went into it.

[Joan Baez]

You want to hear a Tunisian song?

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

Okay. I learned this in Tunisia a billion years ago.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

Brava.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's phenomenal. What does it mean? What do the lyrics mean? Do you know?

[Joan Baez]

No, I don't know. I mean, at one point, something about a taxi has no political meaning at all. I think is absolutely meaningless. And I just think the way they

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

hail taxis over there, maybe.

[Joan Baez]

I think maybe that's it. You have to stand on the street corner and do that. But any Moroccan, Algerian, or Tunisian? Well, this song was like, you know, it was like a summer hit that went on forever.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, wow. That's extraordinary. See how your lower register is gorgeous with that?

[Joan Baez]

As long as I sing in the Tunisian Arabic language. Right? Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It sounds phenomenal. I know that when you became famous, you talk about your fame and fortune, as it were, was a complicated thing in your family at the time. Did you have guilt about that? And if so, I'm wondering how you managed that.

[Joan Baez]

Well, I had guilt about everything, whether it was real or not. So, you know, no big surprise. Yeah, I think so. That everything after the age of 18, so much came to me so easily and so quickly. And I think the biggest struggle was for my sister Mimi, who really wanted that in her life. Pauline just went the other direction. She didn't have anything to do with it. But I felt guilty about both of them, you know, just in general that I was. So. We didn't say blessed back then, but I was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you still feel guilty?

[Joan Baez]

No, I gave it up. Oh, good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How do you give it up?

[Joan Baez]

Well, you know, I had this therapist, and I was struggling a way to forgive everybody. I'll forgive my mother, I'll forgive my father, but I can't forgive myself. And, you know, that was my mantra. I can't forgive myself. And one day he said, what makes you so special? You know, it's true. You have to be able to do that. And it's ongoing. I had another clever quote from a Buddhist friend of mine. He said, you don't have to forgive all at once. You can do a little bit at a time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A little bit at a time.

[Joan Baez]

Which is very helpful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, very helpful and actually kind of true. It's not like you. It's not like a light switch you turn on and off. Right?

[Joan Baez]

That's right. Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

It's on a dimmer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's not a dimmer. It can go up and down. Sometimes you think you've forgiven and then.

[Joan Baez]

Oh, I guess I didn't exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're still on my shit list.

[Joan Baez]

Yep.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's time for another break. More with Joan Baez after this. So the kids moved out, and now they've got the friends, the trips, the whole social calendar. You can't compete with Coachella. But you know what could compete? Nice sheets, every single streaming service, and a fully stocked fridge with all their favorite foods. Here's the thing nobody tells you about the Empty Nests. The kids don't actually disappear. They just need a reason to come back. Back this episode is brought to you by mydea. Their counter Depth plus French door refrigerator is basically the secret weapon for luring your adult kids back home, even just for the weekend. Start with a little hydration. MyDEA calls it water two ways. There's a manual dispenser built right into the door, plus an autofill water pitcher that automatically refills itself using that same dispenser. So there's always cold filtered water ready the second someone reaches for it. No tap water, no waiting. Then there are the dual ice makers in the freezer that make up to five pounds of ice per day in both small and large cubes. Perfect for filling a favorite tumbler. Even better for making a proper cocktail together. Which by the way is one of the genuinely good parts of having adult children. And the storage door bins that actually fit gallon sized containers, plus a slide in shelf that adjusts to make room for taller items. Tiered birthday cakes, big bottles. That lasagna was made specifically so they'd have to come back for leftovers. MyDEA stock it right and they'll find a reason to stay through Sunday dinner. Visit mydea.com to check these appliances out for yourself. Mydea makes the wow. You have a whole ritual right before bed, right? Fluff the pillow, white noise machine, no phone for 30 minutes before bed. Maybe some magnesium, a little lavender essential oil, the weighted blanket and the thermostat at exactly 68 degrees. And after that whole production, you lie down, stare at the ceiling and do the math. Maybe you can get five hours. The ritual was supposed to make sleep easier to find, but somehow it made the whole thing feel like a job. And the bad nights don't stay in the bedroom. They show up at the morning meeting in the patients running thin by 4pm in the feeling that everything is just a little harder than it needs to be. Be a Sleep Number mattress can actually change. Softer when you need to sink in, firmer when your back starts talking, cooler when the nights get long and warm. And Sleep Number has introduced new mattress collections designed for personal comfort. Technology that responds to the way you actually move through the night, not just when you set it, but all night long. Over 150,000 five star reviews rated America's Best Mattress Brand for Customer satisfaction by JD Power 2025 built to last 25 years through the pulled muscles and the pregnancies and every phase of life when your body just needs something different than it did before, it might be the Most important thing you weren't paying attention to. It's the Everything on sale Memorial Day event from Sleep Number. Every bed and base is on sale now. J.D. power ranks sleep number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store and online. For J.D. power 2025 award information, visit jdpower.com awards. Learn more at sleepnumber.com or visit a Sleep Number store near you. You were there when. When Dr. King gave his famous I have a Dream speech. Did you have an awareness that this was a pivotal moment in American history when you were in it?

[Joan Baez]

You know, I'm not sure that any of us really can see that. I knew that it was absolutely extraordinary day. And I'd never seen anything like. I haven't really much since then, but. Yeah, I mean, it was clear. It was monumental. I don't think at my age, I thought about the future.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I know. Who does in their 20s, right? I mean.

[Joan Baez]

No, my idea of the future was the following Wednesday.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly.

[Joan Baez]

No, it was a day, though. It really was a day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know that you and Martin Luther King were friends, and, of course, you were activists together. How'd you meet? How did that happen?

[Joan Baez]

You know, I don't remember actually meeting. I remember seeing him for the first time. It was a gathering of high school students and maybe 250 students from all around the country. And we were, you know, we were studying. We were reading about politics and discussing it and nonviolence and heavy on nonviolence. And I realized that's kind of already the direction I was going. And then. And every year at this gathering, they would have a speaker. And that year, the speaker was Martin Luther King. And I can't even say it without getting weepy again because it meant so much to me. I started to cry. I cried through the whole speech, and I cried afterwards. And the reason was that he was doing what we'd been reading about. We'd been studying Gandhi and all of the, you know, the active stuff that he did. And so here was this man. Yes. There were people in Mississippi staying off the buses and striking and walking around barefoot and. Oh, my God. It was. To me, it was. Yeah, that was pivotal.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. When you've described him, you said he was fatigued, but he always had a great sense of humor. And, of course, I understand why he would have been fatigued. But, I mean, like, what made him laugh? What was funny to Dr. Martin Luther King? I'm dying to know that.

[Joan Baez]

Well, there's just so much I can say. I'll tell you that yesterday I Visited Clarence Jones, who's one of the. He was one of the inner Circle. He's 93 now, I think. And we talked about back then, and I was absolutely knocked out and thrilled. He said, you know, I hung out with those guys and Andy Young and Jesse and Beville. I didn't know. And Clarence told me that they used to say I was one of the guys because I hung out with them and listened to their jokes and listened to their craziness and nobody else had access to it. And one time I was lucky enough to go to the airport, pick up Dr. King. That was a big deal for me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Where was this?

[Joan Baez]

It was SCLC concert in South Carolina.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Joan Baez]

I was in South Carolina somewhere. And so. So we went to the airport. Now, this is so cool. Because they were going to have a march. Two days after that, we're going to have a march. I thought, I am going to hear how these guys put together a march. And so we picked up Dr. King and he told off color jokes from the airport back to the CLC gathering and laughing hysterically. They couldn't do that in public. Of course, King laughed in the pulpit. You know, they were looking for anything to disregard or downgrade him or. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, real, real laughter. And I was really, really lucky enough to be a part of that. Part of the boys.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you were howling alongside with them, right?

[Joan Baez]

No, you know what? I was in such a state of shock.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really?

[Joan Baez]

I don't know that I was howling. I was probably giggling and I was in awe. Yeah, no, it was wonderful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, it must have been incredible. You're so lucky. What did you learn watching him work? I mean, that's such a Pollyanna ish question, but I really do mean it. I mean, what did you learn by being near him and watching him do his thing?

[Judith Bowles]

Thing?

[Joan Baez]

You know, he once said, because I would get next to him to hear him in church, and he once said, and I love to have Joan Baez here because every time I say the word nonviolent, she start to cry. And it was true, you know, and I just sit there blubbering away because there was something about him that was so real and so true and so strong. And just being in his presence was. I don't know what I learned from that, but there I was. I'm sure I learned something about courage, because on those marches, that's when you need courage, is when you're scared. If you walk through it and you're, you know, and you're okay with it, then you don't really need that courage as a backup, but he needed it and he had it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When you have courage in a situation like that, how does that courage speak to you in that moment? In other words, are you laser focused on where you're headed? Are you not considering your worst fear in that moment? You won't allow yourself to go there. Is that what courage is? I'm just curious, sort of from a practical point of view, how you use it in those moments against your fear.

[Joan Baez]

I know that I have to spend time with myself when things are really, really frightening or when I'm feeling super discouraged that I need to get back to where it's a strong place for me. So in those moments, sometimes I think, yeah, I'm brave, but I'm also stupid.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You don't strike me as stupid, Joan.

[Joan Baez]

But I mean, to walked into some of those things, I think, woo. Did I know what I was getting into? Well, I really did. Did. I mean, I did. I'd seen it and I was scared part of the time. Part of the time. That's what I'm joking about. I was too stupid to be scared because you can't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you someone who's comfortable with risk generally speaking?

[Joan Baez]

Apparently, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, your life is. You've taken many risks.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. I'm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm really curious about your relationship to Risk.

[Joan Baez]

I'm convinced that, that social change on a large scale does not happen until people are willing to take a risk.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

So these days that risk is a real risk. It's not like anything I knew back then. I mean, to get arrested now is a very different story. Very different, or can be a very different story. So. And all of my instincts are to say, throw myself between the ice and somebody and I think, wow, what favor would I be doing if I skip my medication for 24 hours and I'm non functional? Seriously. You know, and a lot of people my age are depending on that. And that's one of the reasons that I can't do what I want to do, you know, is to get right smack in the middle of it and say, fuck all of you, and then spend some time paying for that. But I can't do that now. Mm, mm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But you've done so much of it and you could. I mean, and there is so much that you can do. I know you were just recently in, in Minneapolis and God bless you for being there. I mean, you have to do what's appropriate for you at whatever moment of your life you're in. You're still taking risks. You still went to Minneapolis and protested.

[Joan Baez]

But that's. That's an interesting question though, about those of us who still have those instincts and are wise enough to try to a good decision, which is. Even if it's to be the anti instinctual, which it is. But let's be realistic, Baez. Who are you really helping out if you dive into the fray and there are other things I can do. I mean, I was so happy to have been invited to Minneapolis. Was very meaningful to me. The people there were everything some people said they were. They were warm and welcoming and neighborly and wise. Wow. Big learning experience that everybody should be able to have something similar to that anyway.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And to witness in Minneapolis exactly what you describe in the face of the violence that's been thrust upon them is it's a generous place that people have come together and stood up strong and straight against the violence that's being perpetrated against them. I'm in awe that, you know, here in California we've got. I did an anti ICE training and it's scary because these people are so violent. Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

What was the word you used for them? Not friendly, neighborly, but used another word.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Generous.

[Joan Baez]

Generous. That was the feeling I had everywhere I went in Minneapolis was a sense of generosity from the people I met or people in the lobby. Even this motorcycle gang staying in the same hotel. They were called hamsters. And you couldn't have been more different types passing each other in the lobby, kind of giving a nod.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Incredible. God, there's a whole generation of really talented artists who are quite silent about the current assault on democracy. And there's a lot of people who are not silent. But there are those who are or have stepped back from what's going on politically. Do you find that unbelievably frustrating or do do you understand perhaps what those artists, where they're coming from or the artists and musicians and so on?

[Joan Baez]

I think I understand where they're coming from. I mean, I think it's revealing that the one song that's used in all of these demonstrations is Times are changing. I mean, the level of that writing from back then hasn't been approached. Nobody's approached it. You can't summon that up, I don't think. I think that's somebody else's gift, you know, and the young people right now, or some are writing amazing stuff. A few are willing to speak out. Brandi Carlisle is. And Maggie Rogers, my pal, put right out there front and center on the stage at a rally against ice. You know, that's been. Yeah, I mean, I think I sort of cocked my head at these stadium filled with brilliant young women songwriters and why can't they just take that little step?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Just that little step?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, because they're already richer than God, you know, most of them. So that little step.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is there something that you wish someone had told you at the beginning of your career of activism that you wish you had known back then that you've learned as life has gone on?

[Joan Baez]

What comes to my mind is not about activism but about the singing. And I was singing for Shriners cup. I was in high school, right. Somebody said, are you come do this thing for the Shriners? I said, sure. So I don't know what I sang, but I sang something for the Shriners. And they got quiet and they actually listened. Some old guy came up to me afterwards. He said, you know, honey, he tapped me on the shoulder, don't sign cheap. Oh, you're okay, honey. You're gonna do good. No sign sheep. That's good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's very good. It's time for one last quick break. We'll be right back with even more from Joan Baez. Going backwards. Now, when you were 26, you met your former husband, David Harris, and then you guys got married and he was arrested for draft dodging and you were pregnant. And when they came to the. Speaking of being frightened, when they came to the door to arrest him, were you frightened?

[Joan Baez]

No, that's not a situation. We were frightened. I just. No, I mean, we were all rattled because we didn't know we wanted to do the right thing. We wanted to invite those guys in, give them coffee, you know, be generous.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Joan Baez]

And we were. I don't know if they took the coffee or not, but we did all of those things and we did it all smile and stayed true to ourselves, to the whole thing. But I don't think I was not frightened. Maybe David was, but he was pretty solid.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And then I know you were out there making appearances. That's when you went on the Smothers Brothers show, right?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And CBS refused to air either the whole show or you within it because you were talking about the war and.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is that correct?

[Joan Baez]

And David. That's correct. Yeah. They got a chance to thank me years and years later. Who did Tommy Smothers for having kind of wakened them up or made them take a stand? I mean, they chose it, but yeah, they entered a whole different arena after they did that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, interesting. Isn't this funny that it's CBS back then censoring you. And look at CBS now. What a trajectory from that moment to this moment with what's her face, Bari Weiss or whatever her name is, and Colbert being canceled. I mean, it's just an amazing time.

[Joan Baez]

I'm glad to get you while you're

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

still on the air before my podcast is canceled. It's not gonna be canceled. So, David, your husband was in prison when you had your son Gabriel. And so who was there when you had your kid? Who was there when you actually gave birth? Was your mom. Mom there?

[Joan Baez]

No. Friend of mine, Gail, who is still a pal after all these many years. She did Lamaze with me and was there in the hospital.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Joan Baez]

And, yeah, she was there through the whole thing. And then help. You know, she's now his godmother, you know. Oh, and it's been all these years. Yes. No, she went through all of that with me and took care of him constantly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, so she was taking care of him when you were out on the road and stuff like that?

[Joan Baez]

She was often with me out on the road. She would go with me when I went to visit David, or she's staying home taking care of Gabe.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see. I know you've said the easiest kind of relationship for me is with 10,000 people. The hardest one is with one. Was it hard for you to be married? Was it hard to be a mother for those reasons? For that reason, yeah.

[Joan Baez]

I mean, I was incapable of really carrying out what I wanted. Wanted to. You know, I wanted to be the perfect wife. I wanted to be a women's lib. Couldn't stand me because I was trying to be. I was trying to be a wife and a mother and, you know, bake cookies and take care of my kid. And, you know, it wasn't possible. I would do it when I was home, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Joan Baez]

But I wasn't. My. My intimacy issues were so strong that I really wouldn't have landed. I wouldn't have managed in any close relationship. And I didn't know that then. I kept thinking, well, I'm going to make it work. I can make this one work. It took a long time for me to realize.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How long did it take? I mean, I know that Gabe, in the documentary, he talked about your absence and that he was raised by a bunch of people and you were joking about starting a bad mother's club. And, I mean, is it. Speaking of forgiveness, talk about forgiving yourself as a parent. Cause that's tricky.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, no, I still battle with it, but Gabe and I have really become friends. Not in some sort of wishy washy way, but done therapy together, worked our way through a lot of this stuff and being able to say stuff that he couldn't have said all of those years. If you have the right therapist and the right platform, you can do that. We've done a lot of work together and we are close.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's so wonderful. And you're a grandmother.

[Joan Baez]

I am a grandmother. I have one granddaughter. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what's your relationship like with her?

[Joan Baez]

You know, it was rocky for a while, but we are really close. And I know sometimes I'm the only one she really can talk to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Now, why was it rocky?

[Joan Baez]

Because I wasn't available to a grandchildren. Nobody would know that. Nobody would know it. And that it was difficult. And it was difficult probably for her. And when she got a little bit older, I know it was hard for her because I couldn't think the way she thought. I couldn't really be present for her. But now it's a totally different story. And we both worked hard, you know, we both worked hard at it. And yeah, now we're very close. How old is she? She's 22.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, wow. Oh, I thought she was much younger. Oh, wow.

[Joan Baez]

Time marches on. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, but that's such a gift. Talk about gifts.

[Joan Baez]

It is. It's a gift for both of us.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So therapy has been a huge force in your life. And I know that you. Well, when you were in your 50s, your sister Mimi called you to say that something terrible had happened in your childhood, her childhood. And she was talking about abuse and did that. When she gave you that information, that was sort of the beginning of, I guess, a journey that you went on. Did that immediately make sense to you or did you have to sit with with it?

[Joan Baez]

No, it's really interesting because she said, I think something happened. We called him popsy with popsy. She wanted to confront him. And my reaction was, oh, no, he's too old, by the way. He couldn't have done that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

And then I got thoroughly sick. Yeah. Went to bed, pull the covers over my head and wanted it all to go away. And then I realized that that was my reaction, which meant I better, you know, face up to whatever it is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right. And so you did, you went into therapy and you were diagnosed with dissociative identity disorder for our listeners. Can you explain what that is?

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. Back in the day, we called it multiple personality, which is easier to understand because that's what it is. In order to protect yourself, you split up in these different personalities, each one of Whom did say, you know, saved you from something, something took the trauma for you, basically. So they're all in there holding on to this stuff, which is why I was nuts, which is why I was curled up in a, like a fetal position before a concert, which is why I couldn't stay with somebody. That's why I couldn't be a wife. All that stuff was churning around in there. I had no idea, I had no idea that I'd been hurt when I was little. That's how it works. You sit on, you've heard it over and over again or seen it on tv of a woman saying. And then suddenly, and then all of a sudden this happened and it opened all the doors and all this stuff poured out. So I spent years really finding it. And I was happy discovering it through my inner people because I got to know them and they became my family. It's a little mind boggling for people,

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

but it is mind boggling. But it is also extraordinary to consider what the brain does to protect itself.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And as far as, you know, I couldn't forgive my father was harder than my mom. But then little by little, for me and for others like me, you begin to realize that they had to have something terrible happen to them or they wouldn't be able to do this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Joan Baez]

And that, no, they do not remember, remember it. So when you're thinking, well, they could apologize, they could. They don't remember. You know, if I didn't, I. For 50 years I was not willing to look at it. So if I was really trying to find it and they're not interested, they're not going to have a clue. I mean, some parents do. Some parents knew it from the beginning and still know it. But in my case, I believe that in some weird sense they were just these two innocent parents. Parents.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did your sister Pauline have the same experience or it was just Mimi?

[Joan Baez]

It was just Mimi. Pauline wouldn't have anything to do with it. She thought we were nuts. It was her way of, you know, dealing with it. Yeah. Once in a while she'd say something that I thought, oh, my goodness, it would surprise me that somewhere in her something was going on that she wasn't aware of or didn't want to deal with. But I, you know, I joked about it, I said, I know you're not interested in all this stuff. And she wasn't. Then towards the end of her life, I got to know her better.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When you had these, I think you refer to them, or it is referred to as alters, Right. Is that, is that the correct word? Yeah, as an alternative personality, I guess. But alters, maybe this is a stupid question, so please forgive me, but would they. Come on you like, would you not remember them being there?

[Joan Baez]

It's a very good question. And I had what's called co consciousness, meaning, yes. I could watch what was going on. I could hear their voices. And for. It's more difficult for somebody who did not have co consciousness because they don't know what happened because the other person and literally crazy stuff like one would need glasses and the other alter would not need glasses. And so where, you know, you suddenly wake up in somebody's daisy patch and don't know how you got there because basically you're somebody else.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, but that wasn't your experience.

[Joan Baez]

That wasn't me. No, mine was really. I really could see once in a while that would happen and I wouldn't know. One time I had a six year old in me and I was at the grocery store and I hauled proper groceries. I got home and there were a bunch of Twinkies in the grocery bag. I thought Twinkies. I didn't pick up these Twinkies. The six year old wanted Twinkies and I didn't, you know, I didn't see it happen. Wow. But that's, that's the level of mine. I didn't have, you know, serious dissociation that way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Could you control them?

[Joan Baez]

Sometimes. And you know, the trick is trying to make a deal with them. Figure it out. Sometimes. No. Sometimes it was overwhelming sadness or overwhelming rage. Kind of. If I let them. Them do the raging, it got it out of my system.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Gosh.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But do you think that those altars had been with you your whole life or did they? Huh?

[Joan Baez]

I think they've been there. They've been there. Whatever age they came on board because we had a two year old and a six year old and whatever. At whatever point in my life, the trauma was too much to bear. Whoever it was should showed up and took that trauma. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so whoever it was who showed up, were they able to recall the trauma?

[Joan Baez]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Holy moly. I mean really, this is just extraordinary. And then do. But now you don't experience them anymore. Correct?

[Joan Baez]

I do. A couple of them and I miss them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you miss.

[Joan Baez]

I was trying to keep everybody together and everybody.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Joan Baez]

One day I got this sort of knocking on the inside of my head. Somebody wanted out. They wanted to get out of here and go have a life. I was so hurt and so insulted because I thought I was the Perfect mom, you know, and they wanted another life. And one by one, they. I mean, I. I worked with them and therapists, and we said goodbye, and some of them wanted to go into the sky. Some of them wanted to go to the bottom of the ocean. And I had animals as well. They wanted to go to Africa or. And so saying goodbye was very painful. And it is possible to kind of have a, you know, a reunion periodically, but it's not. You know, they're not as precious present by any stretch as they were then.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How long did this process take?

[Joan Baez]

It was a few years of digging that stuff up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Joan Baez]

And I would suggest for anybody, whatever their level of trauma, go deal with it with somebody who can really help you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right. It sounds like it saved your life in a significant way.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah, they did. Yeah, they did. I mean, that's how I feel. Beholden to my crew of altars.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did Mimi have this, too?

[Joan Baez]

She did. You know, Mimi had alters, too, and she had one called Ms. Trust. Her name was Mistrust, and Mistrust wrote in poetry. And I was going through stuff the other day, and I saw one of these notes from Mimi to me. But it was all in poetry. It was from mistrust, signed by Ms. Trust. Oh, wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And she died in 2001, Mimi.

[Joan Baez]

Yes, she did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You've said that losing her was among the darkest losses of your life. What did you lose when she passed away?

[Joan Baez]

Well, it was a difficult situation because Mimi and I had been so close for so long. And I think that's why she couldn't really have me around. I think it was. I was too close, and it was too painful to be leaving. So I know I stuck around anyway and kind of watched her go through this nasty business. You know, I did what I could as a sister, which was mainly to just be there, whether she wanted me there or not.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did she have cancer?

[Joan Baez]

She did, yeah. She had all kinds of cancer. And Mimi was extraordinary. When she was well into it and she felt as though she really needed to let go, she called us all in. She called her family and sort of said, is this okay with everybody? I'd like to end this. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you've outlived almost everyone from the beginning of your life.

[Joan Baez]

I have, yeah. I'm the last one standing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What do you do with that? What do you do with that loss? How do you carry it?

[Joan Baez]

I guess when I remember that I'm the last one standing, I look back at when they were standing. I think that's fair enough to say. Yeah. And sometimes you know, I just sort of commune with them, whether they're there or not, to say some of the things I didn't say or didn't get to say when they were alive. And, you know, my feeling is that they're probably more comfortable now than they were in this life. Could be. Yeah. Hope so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Are you a religious person?

[Joan Baez]

No, I don't think so. But I'm more than just spiritual because I think saying, well, I'm spiritual is kind of a cop out, but I'm not a churchgoer. But I believe there is a God. Even if it's, quote, something, power, higher than myself, greater than myself. But there is definitely something there, and I'm happy to say that that's gone. Odd.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You said this incredible thing that I was wondering if you could talk about if you. You said, pain saves us, what can. Do you remember saying that?

[Joan Baez]

No. Maybe.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, well, maybe I made it up.

[Joan Baez]

I didn't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Maybe I said it, Joan. I guess I said it.

[Joan Baez]

I think you said sound pretty profound. You must have said it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All right, I'm gonna ask you a couple of quick little questions, and then I'll let you go. Thank you for being. Talk about generous. So generous with your time.

[Joan Baez]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's really, really fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's really fun to talk to you. I feel like I could talk to you for a very long time. I'm so fascinated with your journey and your brain and how you've done it and you've really done it. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21?

[Joan Baez]

Don't sign cheap.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, exactly. That's a good one. That's good.

[Joan Baez]

A 21. It'd be somehow, if I could get myself to relax a little bit. It was so hard, you know, to just take it easy. It wasn't possible at that point. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is there something you wish you'd spend less time on now or then. Then.

[Joan Baez]

Then, yeah. I wish I had spent less time in a panic attack. Yeah. You know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, of course.

[Joan Baez]

But I don't have many more. That's the good news.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That is the good news.

[Joan Baez]

Yeah. Really good news.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. I'm just so happy that you've been able to, you know, overcome that. You did overcome shall, and you did.

[Joan Baez]

I did. Want me to sing to you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Please.

[Joan Baez]

Wait in the water Wait in the water, children Wait in the water God's gonna trouble the waters who's that young dressed in white? God's gonna trouble the waters Put down the sword and they picked up the Fight. God's gonna trouble the waters. Wade in the water Wait in the water, children Wait in the water God's gonna trust Trouble the waters God's gonna trouble the water. Thank you. Thank you.

[Judith Bowles]

Gosh, you made me cry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm so happy to meet you.

[Joan Baez]

Thank. Lovely to meet you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you for everything, and God bless you. This is amazing. So happy to talk to you.

[Joan Baez]

Thank you.

[Judith Bowles]

You.

[Joan Baez]

Wow. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That was simply extraordinary. God, I have so much to tell my mom. We. We're going to get her on the zoom now right away. Hi, Mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

Hi, sweetheart.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, Mother. Yeah. Oh, my. Mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Today I talked to Joan Baez. Oh, and let me just start out by telling you the following. I've just finished crying. Because, mom, first of all, she's 85, and three different times during the conversation, she sang for us. Three different times. Can you even believe what I'm saying? And at the very end of the conversation, she sang, said, want me to sing to you? I was like, yeah. And then she sang that. That spiritual song, Wade in the Water. It was so beautiful. And I just was crying, crying. Everybody was crying. It was so gorgeous.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, how wonderful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Isn't that a gift and a half?

[Judith Bowles]

A gift and a half. But she's given gifts all of her life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's exactly right. She has given gifts. She has dedicated her art and her life to activism. And in a way that is just unsurpassed, really. I mean, she traveled a lot as a young person. She was never. As a child. They were constantly moving around and moved

[Judith Bowles]

all over the world, didn't they?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All over the world, yeah. And we talked about that because, of course, we traveled around a lot when I was young and I mentioned Tunisia. And the next thing I know, she's singing a Tunisian song to me. Ah, yes. And the thing that's so interesting, actually, and it's particularly good for our podcast, is her voice has changed. She has a much deeper. You know, she had that beautiful, angelic soprano voice when she was a young woman, and now she has this deep, guttural, fabulous, low, earthy sounding voice. And it works so well. When she sang the spiritual, when she sang this Tunisian. So for the life of me, I couldn't pronounce one word out of it. But there's beauty in aging, and there is much beauty in her voice. A different kind of beauty from what it was, but 100% beautiful. So it was a great actual lesson, you know, just sort of on display. She was singing, you know, oh, how wonderful.

[Judith Bowles]

And there's always been something about Her. She's not too performative, you know what I mean? It seems as if the song is part of when she. She owns a song in a certain way. As if she's really here to. To give you the song.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, she talks about her voice as a gift. She really does think she was given this gift, and her job was to take care of the gift, but that it had, in fact, been given to her. But she talks, mom, about seeing Pete Seeger when she was in high school, and her sort of whole world opened up. It was like all of a sudden then she kind of knew that this was gonna be her journey. And it's funny, because I think of Pete Seeger and Burl Ives and Peter, Paul and Mary and Joan Baez. By the way, these were the records that you and dad listened to when we were growing up, right?

[Judith Bowles]

Absolutely. And we sang those songs. We sang them in Sri Lanka. Oh, we did, because we had a Victrola, a little portable Victrola, and we had records of Pete Seeger and Burl Ives. And we took them all records with us.

[Joan Baez]

Oh.

[Judith Bowles]

And we played them and played them. And there at one point, Carl Sandberg's daughter came through visiting in Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka, Yes. She came in and said that she was Carl Sandburg's daughter. And we had been singing all along the Colorado Trail, which Carl Sandberg wrote. I immediately started to cry when she said that.

[Joan Baez]

She.

[Judith Bowles]

I mean, it was. The music was so touching. All of that music, to me, was so, so touching. And just felt like it just brought up the soul of you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Mom, here's something really interesting. She talked about. She talked about forgiveness. And of course, she's had to deal with. Well, who doesn't have to deal with forgiveness, for Christ's sake? I mean, that's just the human condition. You have to. Right. But she talked about forgiveness really being on a dimmer switch. That it's not like it happens all at once. And it can. You know, you can forgive in little pieces. It's not a. A sort of like, all or nothing kind of experience. And I thought that was interesting, that forgiveness is kind of on a dimmer switch.

[Judith Bowles]

Don't you? I love that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I do, too.

[Judith Bowles]

I think lots of life is on a dimmer switch. In other words, we. We can't take it. Some things we just can't take all in. But you take, for instance, grief, and I think you take it in little batches. And then one day you. You sort of face the whole loss. But. But it's almost like your brain is a kind thing that, that knows how to dose the spoonful of sugar. But life to you and, and I think that's a, that's a wonderful thing and we all have that, I hope capacity because I think it's, it's a way of being sort of tender and kind to yourself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally. Yeah, completely. Ah, what a day. I'm so happy I got to talk to her.

[Judith Bowles]

I'm so glad she's saying to you. Oh, and I want any way I can hear her two nations song.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, yeah, 100%.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, yeah. I can hear it on your podcast.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, you can hear it on the podcast if you'd ever like to listen to the podcast.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, I always do, honey.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, no, I know, I know, Mommy. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I know you listen and I'm very grateful you do. Okay, well, I love you a lot and I'm going to say goodbye for now.

[Judith Bowles]

I love you, honey. And thank you. It sounds like it was a really. All of these are so special.

[Joan Baez]

Special.

[Judith Bowles]

But Joan Baez is a. Is a special. So special. And, and we should all listen to her all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'll say. Talk about wisdom. She's chock full.

[Judith Bowles]

Much love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Love you. Love you too. Love you.

[Joan Baez]

Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium, you can. You can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com. make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our essay VP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber. And our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.