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- [00:01]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Hey, listeners, it's me, Julia. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We've got so much more wisdom to share from the legendary old ladies featured this season. You know, so many of our guests have written memoirs reflecting on their experiences. And by putting it all into writing, they've uncovered a better understanding of what truly matters. Jane Fonda calls it a life review and wisely says, to know where you want to go, you. You first have to understand where you've been. So brilliant. Right? That's why we've created a special Wiser Than Me notebook so you can kickstart your own life review and write down some of the nuggets of wisdom these women share in each new episode. We just added these groovy hardcover notebooks to our merch shop. To buy yours, head over to wiserthanmeshop.com today.
- [00:55]
Nina Totenberg
Lemonade.
- [01:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You know that movie 12 Angry Men with Henry Fonda and Lee J. Cobb? I just. I love that movie. It's one of the truly great American films. And it all takes place in a jury room. If you haven't seen it, watch it. I have only been under jury once. It was a very long time ago. I can't really remember exactly when, except that I had two little kids and my husband Brad was running a show and we were incredibly busy and self absorbed and a jury summons hit my mailbo and I thought, oh, Christ, I don't have time for this. And I figured I'd probably get out of serving because somebody was going to recognize me from Seinfeld, right? But, yeah, nobody recognized me or they didn't give a crap because I went through voir dire with a couple of hundred people downtown. And of course, I got selected for the jury, and I am so glad that I did. The jury that I was on with 11 of my peers was made up of actual serious citizens. And what I mean by that is, I mean, we all took our obligation very solemnly. It was sober, you know what I mean? I can't remember the exact makeup of the jury now, but it seemed like it was an actual representation of people living and working in Los Angeles. You know, it was something like a real estate agent and a nurse and a couple of city workers and me, an actor. You know, Los Angeles. On tv, you often see the beautifully polished grand locations where important things are being decided. But in reality, we're in downtown la, deliberating in a room that looked and smelled, you know, kind of like the dmv. The whole thing was impressively drab and still There was something just so touching about it. I found the whole jury experience to be incredibly moving. The lawsuit was about a woman who was suing her insurance company because they refused to pay for hospital stay and the medical procedure. The case was pretty technical, and it took a whole week for the two sides to argue it out. When we started to deliberate, the head juror was this middle aged stockbroker, I think, who turned out to live about a block away from me. And he was so good. He was very soft spoken, and he got everyone around the table to state their personal views of the case. And the thing that amazed me and actually amazes me still looking back on it, is that everyone stuck to the facts and nobody talked about themselves, right? Nobody wanted to bloviate and, you know, make speeches and so on. They had listened and they had things to say about the case. So we took our first vote, and I think it was 10 to 2 against the insurance company. But the two who had voted the other way actually just wanted to talk a little more about it. And pretty quickly on the second vote, we had a verdict in favor of the patient. No drama, no David E. Kelly TV series theatrics. This was just a humble, serious, restrained proceeding. So it wasn't exactly like 12 Angry Men. In fact, Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor once said when she was a lower court judge that she would specifically instruct jurors not to behave like the jurors in that film. But Justice Sotomayor also said that seeing 12 angry men when she was in college was a big reason that she decided to go to law school. How cool is that? She said that juror number 11's speech about American justice was particularly inspirational to her. He's the only immigrant on the jury, played by George Voskovec. I won't do his accent, but here's what he says in the film. We, the jury, have a responsibility. This is a remarkable thing about democracy, that we are. What is the word? Notified. That we are notified by mail to come down to this place and decide on the guilt or innocence of a man we have not known before. We have nothing to gain or lose by our verdict. This is one of the reasons we are strong. But I guess right now, unfortunately, a speech like that seems terribly naive. I don't even know how to feel about justice or justices for that matter. The Constitution itself seems to be in danger, and Americans are losing faith in the judicial system so fast, it's dizzying. I know our system has never been perfect. God knows we continue to be in desperate need of reform and justice is unfairly applied, especially regarding wealth and race. But when I served on that jury, I couldn't help but feel hopeful that the system is working. Now I'm not so sure. So it's a good thing that today we're talking to Nina Totenberg. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Now that I'm in the podcast game, I am more aware than ever of the power of the spoken voice. And I'm talking about the voice itself, the sound that goes into your ear and delivers what the voice is saying to the brain. I've realized that for me, there are a few voices that I have come to absolutely rely on, and I absolutely need Nina Totenberg's voice. The timber, the intelligence and reasonableness that she brings to her reporting of even the most outrageous injustice. Well, somehow what she says, and maybe just as important how she sounds when she says it, calms me, while I mean it also weirdly lets me continue to rage. And I do love a little rage. She was one of the founding mothers of NPR and has been on the air covering legal affairs, justice, and the supreme court for almost 50 years, which is actually longer than any justice has ever sat on the court itself. Her coverage has earned her every major journalism award in broadcasting, and she was the first radio journalist to have won the National Press Foundation's Broadcaster of the Year award. She's in the radio hall of Fame, for God's sakes. Even before npr, she was breaking national stories and paving the way for future generations of female journalists and just plain journalists. She has written beautifully about her relationship with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg in her book, Dinners with Ruth. I am beyond excited to talk to a woman who is so much wiser than me. The extraordinary Nina Totenberg. Welcome, Nina Totenberg.
- [08:20]
Nina Totenberg
Thank you for having me.
- [08:21]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, so I'm gonna start with the first question I always ask everyone on this show. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age?
- [08:30]
Nina Totenberg
No, I'm not comfortable at all about that, because the world is an ageist world.
- [08:36]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Boy, I'll say.
- [08:37]
Nina Totenberg
And I don't. So I don't go around advertising my age. Let's just say I am many decades wiser than you are.
- [08:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So you don't wanna say what your real age is?
- [08:51]
Nina Totenberg
I hate it, but I mean, I will if you force me to, but I hate it because I don't feel like I'm that age.
- [08:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, well, how old do you feel?
- [09:01]
Nina Totenberg
I think I feel that I'm about late 40s, early 50s.
- [09:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I feel the same, actually. I feel the same. What's the best part, do you think about being your age? That is unspoken.
- [09:14]
Nina Totenberg
I don't think there's a wonderful part about being my age because you suddenly realize that you're not going to be around forever and that the forever part is getting closer and that you're as much as I am, who I always have been. I had this year a real genuine, horrible health scare, and I'm still walking around with a cane from it. So, you know, I had to learn to walk again. The most boring thing that I do a lot of is physical therapy. And so that's what I do for the other part of my living, is making sure that I will have another good 10 or 15 years maybe.
- [10:02]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And what have, what have you learned from this process of recovery at this age? Are there big takeaways?
- [10:10]
Nina Totenberg
No. I do think there's a good deal of. In life, when you come to a serious health issue over which you have some control, not total control, but some control that you just have to try to, as much as you can, act as if you're going to conquer this, because that way you will not scare the people you love so much. And it's one of those things where if you act something, it becomes so. So if you act miserable, you can actually be miserable. And if you act with a sense of humor about your dilemma, you will feel much better about it.
- [10:53]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, that's fascinating that you say that, because, you know, I had breast cancer seven years ago, and that was exactly my experience. You make a decision to approach it with a certain point of view, and you adhere to that period as much.
- [11:09]
Nina Totenberg
As you possibly can. And, you know, there's nobody that doesn't have their down moments.
- [11:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Sure.
- [11:16]
Nina Totenberg
But if you can act as if it's going to be all right.
- [11:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [11:23]
Nina Totenberg
And that you will do your best to make it all right, it gets you there faster and better, I think.
- [11:30]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes, I agree with that. So I wanted to talk first about your early career, about which I know you've spoken before, but it sure is fascinating. We all know and love you as one of the founding mothers of npr. I mean, it may not even seem possible to people who are listening to us talking, but you had a career even before you got to npr. You dropped out of college, by the way. I did, too. So yay for us. And you started your journalism career at the Boston Record. American, is that the name?
- [12:01]
Nina Totenberg
Doesn't exist anymore.
- [12:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You didn't stay there for very long, did you, Nina?
- [12:05]
Nina Totenberg
No, I didn't stay there for a long time. I think the straw that broke the camel's back was that I realized that I wanted to have a story that I could call my own. And I had this idea which was, in hindsight, a very good idea, which was at the time, Massachusetts was a pretty conservative state. Hard to believe because the legislature was very conservative. It was Democratic, but it was very conservative. And contraception was illegal in the state. So I figured it wasn't illegal probably at all the schools around town. So I, pretending to be a student, called up Radcliffe and Simmons and Wellesley and made appointments with their health services as a. Pretending to be a student to get contraception, which in those days was probably. I think it was a diaphragm. And I wrote all this up as a memo and I presented it to the editor of the newspaper, the executive editor, who was a man named Eddie Holland. And he. It was lovely to me, but he called me into his office that afternoon and he said, nina, I can't let you do this. And I said, why not? He said, have you ever had an internal examination? And I said, no. And he said, I can't let you do this. I'm not quite sure. When I was writing the book, my editor asked me why he was so upset, and I don't know exactly why. I think he thought he was protecting me. He wouldn't let me do it. I couldn't persuade him.
- [13:54]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Didn't he ask you if also you were a virgin?
- [13:57]
Nina Totenberg
Yeah, he asked me if I was a virgin. And I said yes, I was a virgin. And it started an amazing thought today that somebody in her 20s would be a virgin. But I was, and I was not hugely unusual because it was difficult to get contraception.
- [14:14]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But when you said it's amazing thing to. I thought you were going to say an amazing thing to ask someone.
- [14:20]
Nina Totenberg
Well, it was amazing, but I, you know. Yeah, there were. All I ever wanted was a job at the. Early. In the early part of my career, and I was willing to do almost anything. I wouldn't have slept with somebody or something like that. But I, you know, I wasn't going to get offended by something that wasn't going to stop me from getting a shot at a good job. And so I figured I needed to go someplace else.
- [14:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And you did?
- [14:51]
Nina Totenberg
I did. That's when I went to the Peabody Times, where I got to do lots. There were days that I wrote every story on the front page, every One of them, really? Oh yeah. My byline was on every one of those stories a few times, like after an election or something like that. And I covered the courthouse and I covered. They sent me in because I was pretty young. They sent me in undercover to find out what was going on in the local high school, which I don't remember that I found out a huge amount. And I think it was painfully obvious that I was not the age of the kids there too. I don't think I was terribly successful.
- [15:31]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I believe that you went undercover. Wait, can we just.
- [15:33]
Nina Totenberg
I was not, I did not go as a reporter. I went as if I were a new student in school. I can't remember to save myself, what they thought I was going to find out. Whatever it was, I didn't find it out.
- [15:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And you sort of dressed like a student and tried to blend in, but.
- [15:50]
Nina Totenberg
I felt like an Amazon. I loved that year at the Peabody Times because I got to do everything. And when I got to npr, I got to do everything. I covered politics, I covered presidential campaigns, I covered the Supreme Court, I covered almost every scandal that broke. I broke a few big stories like the Anita Hill story.
- [16:09]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. But I do wanna ask you, you did say at some point when we were. When I was getting ready to talk to you and I saw you said you weren't trying to break a glass ceiling, you.
- [16:21]
Nina Totenberg
Yeah.
- [16:21]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You were just trying to get a foot in the door.
- [16:23]
Nina Totenberg
Yes, exactly.
- [16:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you now still have a feeling like you have to prove yourself in some way or stay relevant? Has that changed over time, that driver for you?
- [16:39]
Nina Totenberg
It changed, but it didn't change until I was well into my 50s, I think.
- [16:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Uh huh. How did it change, Nina?
- [16:46]
Nina Totenberg
Well, I used to sometimes sit down when I had a big story to write and I was on deadline. I would sometimes sit down and think, oh my God, this time I'm going to be exposed for the complete fraud that I know I am. It was that kind of uncertainty. That is so female, isn't it? It's so fricking female.
- [17:10]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know that I.
- [17:12]
Nina Totenberg
And fortunately I was able to talk about it with other women as we got older, which helped, helped a lot. But it wasn't really until then that I was able to sit down and I had that feeling. And I would say, come on Nina, just suck it up. You just have to start writing and you know you will get through this and if you do that. When I was writing the book, I asked for a list of the stories that I had done on NPR.
- [17:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [17:45]
Nina Totenberg
And there were over 9,000 of them.
- [17:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, fuck.
- [17:49]
Nina Totenberg
And so I didn't even look at the list. I mean, I thought, okay, I don't. Wow, there are stories I look at that I wrote that I not only don't remember writing, I don't remember knowing. I literally don't remember knowing.
- [18:07]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know. And by the way, I want to say that I've had the same feeling in my own life of like, oh, God, you're. You are a fraud. I wouldn't say fraud, but they don't know. They don't know how. How much you suck and have to. And to push yourself to power through that and to. Because there is a feeling that, for me, anyway, that it hasn't completely gone away, that I feel that I have to be able to prove myself, even to this day, to a certain extent. Not like when I was in my 20s, but still, that's a real thing. And I think it's. It's a female thing, as you say. Isn't that interesting?
- [18:55]
Nina Totenberg
It is a female thing, but also it's. Returning to the subject of age, people are very willing, including younger women, to dismiss older women because they think we're fuddy duddies. And we're. And we are. In some ways, you know, we are. We. Those are people my age and the age that Cokie Roberts was and that Linda Wertheimer is that Susan Stamberg is. Susan is even older than I am. And we were almost always, until we came to npr, the only women where we worked. We were the only women there. And we just wanted a chance to prove ourselves. And therefore, we put up with a lot of stuff that no woman puts up with today or should put up with.
- [19:55]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's why I'm doing this podcast, for exactly that reason. Yes.
- [19:59]
Nina Totenberg
And hats off to you.
- [20:02]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No, but I mean, I feel strongly about it because they do listen to older men. And I'm exhausted by that now. I'm exhausted. And we need to hear exactly what you're saying right now. Exactly what you're saying. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with Nina Totenberg after this quick break. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you ever had a moment where you felt like you couldn't be your full self? Like you were putting on a mask to fit in or maybe to hide a part of who you are? Yeah, October is a fun time for masks and costumes, but let's be honest, sometimes it feels like we're wearing a mask more often than we'd like, whether it's at work in social settings or even around family, but therapy can help with that. It's a space where you can learn to accept all parts of yourself and start taking off that mask. Therapy can be life changing. By working through the fears and insecurities that often make us feel like we need to hide, therapy allows us to embrace our true selves. This acceptance brings a sense of peace and confidence, helping us to show up more authentic in our relationships, at work and in all areas of life. If you've been thinking about starting therapy, try BetterHelp. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time at no additional cost. To find the right fit for you, visit betterhelp.com wiser today to get 10% off your first month. That's better. H E L p.com wiser Grammar is pretty important, isn't it folks? Why? Well, we spend a lot of time on written communication, nearly half the work week in fact, so staying focused is crucial. And that's where Grammarly comes in. And right now you can download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com podcast with Grammarly as your writing partner, you can stay laser focused and get through your work faster thanks to real time suggestions. Wherever you write, Grammarly's prompts save you so much time by providing context text aware suggestions that help you find just the right words and strike the perfect tone for your audience. Plus, Grammarly is committed to security. Their enterprise grade protection ensures data is secure and never sold. Best of all, Grammarly works seamlessly across all the apps you use daily. It's like having a personal writing assistant that makes everything smoother. Whether you're writing an email, drafting a memo, or just jotting down ideas, it's no wonder 90% of professionals say Grammarly has saved them time writing and editing their work. Get more done with Grammarly. Download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com podcast that's Grammarly.com podcast this show is sponsored by Macy's Thanksgiving morning wouldn't be complete without the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. This year marks the 96th annual parade live from New York City. There's something so special about waking up to those huge colorful balloons making their way through the city streets. It's like a little bit of magic filling up your living. And it's the perfect start to the holiday before all the cooking and festivities get underway. This year's parade is even more exciting with Minnie Mouse making her debut as a brand new balloon floating down the streets of New York alongside all the other iconic characters. And it's not just about the balloons and floats. There are incredible Broadway performances, marching bands from across the country, and of course, Santa himself closing it out to kick off the holiday season. So grab your family, cozy up, and make the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade part of your Thanksgiving tradition. To learn more about the parade and what's in store this year, visit macy's.com parade I want to talk about sexism, but before I even do, I do have to ask you this question. It was, I guess, when you were. When you were at the national observer that you started covering legal affairs. And in those days, you would invite certain Supreme Court justices over for dinner to talk with them. Is that true? Mm, yes. Okay.
- [24:24]
Nina Totenberg
I invite them and their wives. I mean, if they would come.
- [24:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes, of course.
- [24:27]
Nina Totenberg
If they would come. Yeah.
- [24:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So let's talk about how did you get the courage to do that? Because to me, that's like capital B. Balls. I can't get over it.
- [24:36]
Nina Totenberg
I love it. I can't get over it either. The truth is, I can't get over it either. I was so ambitious and determined not to fail at this job that, I mean, I really don't know how I had the balls to ask Lewis Powell and his lovely wife Jo to come have dinner at my little 13 foot wide house. And I'm in my late 20s, early 30s. And how I had the nerve to do that. I would not have the nerve to do that today.
- [25:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, but. Except I think that you would. And for our listeners, Lewis Powell, he was a Supreme Court justice during the 70s and the 80s. Do you still have justices over for dinner parties and so on?
- [25:27]
Nina Totenberg
If they'll come. It's all off the record, and it's usually just social. And if they'll come. And it's how I got to be a really good Supreme Court reporter, was at least knowing some of these people and being able to not so much ask them the inappropriate question, but the appropriate question. I mean, one of my great things that I did when I was a bit younger was that I would invite justices who were retired to have lunch with me. And they were usually very happy to do that because Washington is a place where, except for your beloved law clerks, once you no longer have power, people are less visit you less, care about you less, et cetera. It's not a very attractive thing, but it's true. And so I would have lunch with somebody like Lewis Powell, and I would never have asked him a question about why he voted a certain way in a certain case as long as he was a sitting justice. But afterwards, what have I got to lose? And he was much more forthcoming, I think, than he would have otherwise. Because we're talking about history at that point. We're not talking about something at that moment that he was doing. And he was very helpful to me. Justice Brennan was very helpful to me. Justice Stewart was helpful to me. Lots of members of the court were willing to talk, at least generically with me about the court, and then after they retired, if they were, remain in Washington.
- [27:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
More specifically, do you even today have justices over? I'm guessing you can't say who, but I can't.
- [27:15]
Nina Totenberg
But I do. Yes, I do.
- [27:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay.
- [27:18]
Nina Totenberg
Including some conservative justices who I quite like. I never invite any other reporter, and I never invite people who are involved in court business. You know, I invite a really smart couple of doctors, like a duo husband and wife team. You know, he a critical care doc and she an object. They're good friends. They, you know, after Justice Scalia died, who I really adored, they had had dinner with him a couple of times at our house. And so. And when he died, they went over and bought one of his rifles from him for their daughter who was working in a part of the world that was where you needed to have a rifle.
- [28:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Where?
- [28:18]
Nina Totenberg
Alaska.
- [28:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Alaska. Oh, I see.
- [28:21]
Nina Totenberg
You know, in Alaska, if you're out, you could see a moose and you would.
- [28:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:26]
Nina Totenberg
Not want to have trouble with the moose.
- [28:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I had this experience once where I ran into, at a gathering at the White House, Justice Kagan, and she was incredibly lovely, and she said that how much she enjoyed this show I was making called Veep at the time, and that she and Justice Scalia would get together every week after an episode aired. They'd have lunch and they would talk about things within that episode that they thought were funny or whatever. And I got such a kick out of that. And I was perfectly amazed that these two justices, who, you know, their ideologies are obviously opposed from one another, could have the experience of enjoying that show together. That was just mind blowing to me. Absolutely mind blowing. But I know that Scalia was a good time. I obviously read a lot about him and understand that to be the case. Nino, right?
- [29:38]
Nina Totenberg
Nino, yes. We used to get a kick out of going to some, you know, I would invite him to the White House Correspondents Dinner or something like that, and it would be the Nino and Nina Show.
- [29:48]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, that's good. That's really good. Okay, so, Nina, let's talk about losing your temper. I read this amazing quote from you. You said, losing your temper is not good for dealing with people, and it's not good for you. The person who feels the worst afterwards is usually you. Did you learn this lesson the hard way, Nina?
- [30:14]
Nina Totenberg
Oh, God, yes. I had a really short fuse, I think. And I think it was really because I always felt, as a younger person, as if I was. I had to defend myself, because, after all, I was the only woman in the room. And so that I had to be. And I had to prove that I was really tough. And believe me, I proved that many times, but I never felt that way. I always felt like mush. So I was even more probably tough than I needed to be, by far. So I. And I would. You know, when I wasn't completely junior anymore, I would lose my temper from time to time. And there was just no two ways about it. At some point, I realized that the best thing to do when I felt that hydraulic push of, you think your head's gonna come off was to turn around and walk out.
- [31:20]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Really?
- [31:21]
Nina Totenberg
Yes. Because that way I couldn't. Because if I did lose my temper, inevitably I said something that I was really sorry for, embarrassed about, shouldn't have said, ugh. So I don't lose my temper that way anymore.
- [31:39]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Was there a specific moment or period of time in which you made that transition to controlling your temperature?
- [31:47]
Nina Totenberg
I think I probably was in my 40s, in my early 40s, because by then I had started to actually have a real reputation as a person, as a journalist. That means you can't do that and not have people notice. And it's one thing for somebody who's nobody to blow her stack. It's another thing. If you were to do that in the office with people you have to work with and. Or at the airport or whatever, it was not a wise thing to do, and I learned to not do it. And I also learned that the person who. If you really lose your temper, you're physically ill afterwards, it just feels awful afterwards.
- [32:37]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, it's a terrible feeling. I mean, you feel as if you're. It's a release in the moment, but when in fact it. The stink of it stays with you. It doesn't mean you can't get angry, FYI. I would say, of course you can get angry, but there has to be a rationality to your expression of anger. But what about, shall I say, asshole management? Because here you are inside the beltway, and here I am in show business There are plenty of assholes at work, I'm guessing, in the court. It's how do you manage that? How do you manage people who you have to work with that are very misbehaved?
- [33:27]
Nina Totenberg
Well, the people that drive you the most bonkers, I just steer clear of if I, you know, I just why bother? And I don't actually get mad at anybody who I interact with regularly at the court because. Well, first of all, the public information office is entirely female, really entirely female. And so that's just for starters. And the people who work at the court take a lot of pride in what they do and deserve the respect that we generally give them.
- [34:07]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [34:07]
Nina Totenberg
And we can't certainly we certainly don't have any influence, I would say is I guess the right way to put it with the justices. So if they're going to be a holes misbehave, why bother? I mean, first of all, I don't know how you'd even get to them to say to them you were very disappointed in them.
- [34:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, exactly. But let's go back a second. What were you saying about the public information office at the Supreme Court?
- [34:36]
Nina Totenberg
Yeah. There's the press secretary for the court, the deputy press secretary. Then there are two or three other people who work in that office and they are very professional and they are all women.
- [34:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So I am fascinated that you say that because in my experience, when I have worked in situations with all women, for example, on this podcast, for the most part everyone's Woman and and on films that I've made, directed by Women, Nicole Holoff, center shows that I've done with Carrie Leiser, female led. It's an entirely different workplace. And there is a what's the word? I'm going to say there is an ease of generosity that's just in place. And I would imagine you had that experience with Susan Stamberg and Linda Wertheimer and Cokie Roberts when you first started at npr. Right? I mean, absolutely, yes.
- [35:42]
Nina Totenberg
And Linda and Cokie were and are my best friends. And when I when my late husband died and when he was terribly sick for almost five years, they and my sisters were the people who looked after me, took care of me, made sure I was okay. And they were my closest friends. And Ruth Ginsburg became one of my absolutely closest friends, even though, you know, in the book I wrote about this, because I had to think about it, I didn't realize that I was a close friend of hers until she turned 50 or 60, I don't remember which. And her husband asked me to write something about my friendship with her, a letter that would be. He was putting together a book for her birthday. And I did that. And when I was writing my book, by then, Ruth had died, and I asked her daughter Jane if she had by any chance, had a copy of the letter that I had written, because it was in a book. And she took a picture or whatever, and she sent it to me. And I was really quite astonished because now I think of Ruth as my friend for almost 50 years. But back then, when she turned 50, I think I signed it Nina Totenberg, which is a little crazy when you think about it. So I had this moment of realization that I still thought I was. That we were not best buddies or among the best buddies. And I thought, why did you think that? And what did you have in common that lasted almost 50 years? And the thing that we had in common that lasted almost 50 years is that for much of that time, we both were women of some accomplishment who constantly had our noses pressed up against the window looking inside at men who had all these jobs, and they weren't letting us have them. And we wanted them let us in. Let us be part of this gang that you have.
- [38:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [38:15]
Nina Totenberg
And I think that's one of the reasons that she was so generous to so many women and so many girls and so many little girls, is that she understood that you said that you.
- [38:31]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Learned how to be a better friend from your friends.
- [38:34]
Nina Totenberg
Oh, I definitely learned how to be a better friend. I mean, I don't think I could ever be as good a friend as Cokie Roberts.
- [38:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Why?
- [38:43]
Nina Totenberg
There was no end to her ability to be a friend and to know what was the right thing to do so that. I mean, at some point, I remember Lee, her son, was talking to his father, and they said, you know, if Cokie were here, she would have been at the house. Said, Steve, she would have gone over because so and so's husband was in terrible shape or was. Had just died. And. And Lee said, no, no, she wouldn't have just gone over the house. She would have been sleeping on the couch that night. So that is the kind of friend she was for me. And I learned from it how to be a much better friend and to understand that what you give, you get.
- [39:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Back to just by giving.
- [39:37]
Nina Totenberg
Yes, by giving. And that. That is. I don't know anybody who could be as good a friend as Cokie was. But just the other day, I wrote Steve, her husband, and I said, just want you to know I had one of my Cokie moments, which is Always you can't figure out what would be the right thing to do. What would Cokie have done? Okay, then it's obvious. What would Cokie have done? Then it's obvious what you would do. You would give this much money. You would not hesitate to say, I to say, I can afford it in this case. The woman who had helped take care of my husband was in, called me because she wanted she had been cheated out of some money. Could I help her get that money from the employer who had cheated her? And I thought, she'll never get this money. She needs the money. I'll send her a check. What would Cokie have done? She would have given her the money.
- [40:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So look at that. Koki is alive and well in you. That's lovely. Yes, it is actually. In fact, it's time to take another break. There's more wisdom from Nina Totenberg when we come back. When the weather turns cooler, it's time to embrace everything cozy and Quince has just what you need. From luxurious cashmere to soft loungewear, Quince offers high quality essentials at prices that will shock you. The quince 100% merino wool scarf coat checks all the boxes. Soft, warm and so stylish you'll wonder how you ever live without it. The attached scarf and delicate embroidery gives it a bespoke artisanal feel, while the oversized fit gives warmth and comfort. You can really wrap up in. It's the perfect fall staple item for everything you're doing, whether that's the farmer's market, brunch with friends or just walking the dog. And where else can you get 100% merino wool for these prices? Here's the best part. Quince cuts out the middleman and works directly with the best factories so you can get a gorgeous high quality wardrobe for a fraction of what you'd pay elsewhere. No markups, no gimmicks, just pure timeless comfort that doesn't break the bank. Get cozy in Quince's high quality wardrobe essentials go to quince.com wiser for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Quincom. Wiser to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser. You know, one of the things no one tells you about being an adult is how complicated saving and investing can feel. Suddenly you're supposed to know how the stock market works. Yeah, forget it. No thanks. We don't teach basic investing skills in schools and we expect everyone to be able to figure it out on their own. That's why Acorns was introduced. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing for your future. You don't need a lot of money or expertise to invest with Acorns. In fact, you can get started started with just your spare change. Acorns recommends an expert built portfolio that fits you and your money goals, then automatically invests your money for you. No spreadsheets, no digging around for stock tips, just smart automatic investing while you live your life. So if you've ever thought I should really start saving for the future, but after this next episode, Acorns is for you. Their mission of making investing accessible has resonated with so many people who previously thought getting smart with money just wasn't for them. Head to acornacorns.com wiser or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future. Today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.com wiser we all have fitness goals, but it's another thing to stick to them until we see progress. Peloton makes it easy to keep up with your goals no matter where you are or how your schedule looks. With a huge variety of classes, Peloton fits every stage and every moment. Whether you're welcoming a new chapter or just carving out a few moments for yourself. Whatever era you're in, holiday hustle, running season, or a new wellness journey, Peloton is ready. With the workouts and encouragement to keep you going. You can try barre, pilates, yoga, running, meditation and so much more to discover what energizes you. Each class type is there to help you stay motivated and keep moving. Need flexibility? Peloton's All Access membership means you can work out at home on your bike, tread or row, or log into the app to squeeze in a workout wherever you happen to be. Whether you're at a park, in a hotel, or even cheering on your kids from the sidelines. And if you're balancing a packed schedule, Peloton has you covered. Classes come in all lengths. Whether you have just 10 minutes or you're ready to dive into a 45 minute session, there's always something ready on demand or live whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power with peloton@onepalaton.com Wiser Than Me Season 3 is available ad free. When you subscribe to Lemonada Premium, you'll Also get access to exclusive interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now in the Apple Podcast app. You know, we had Fran Liebowitz on our show back in season one, and she was best friends with Toni Morrison, and she mentioned specific moments in her life when she wished she could ask her dear Toni Morrison for her thoughts on something. And I'm wondering right now, is there anything that you wish you could ask Ruth Bader Ginsburg right now, other than could you please come back?
- [46:10]
Nina Totenberg
That's probably what I would ask. You know, Ruth was, in her own way, just as I am, in my own way, a rather conservative person in the way she conducted her life and what she thought about things. And. And I would ask her what, knowing now what happened in the aftermath of what's happened at the court, what would she think we should do? Because I don't think this is a question that's easy to answer. And I interviewed her probably six, eight months before she died. In the course of that interview, I asked her whether she thought it was the court should be expanded, for example, and she said, absolutely not. If you expand it, you can contract it or somebody, the next president could just add more people and more people, and it gets. And it's just an unwieldy situation in which the court just seems constantly political. So there are those who would say that the court seems constantly political now, I'm sure. So what would she say now, knowing more about what happened? I know people will say, oh, she should have quit earlier. Yes, she would have if she had thought she was sick. She wasn't sick. She was at the height of her powers on the court.
- [47:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right.
- [47:42]
Nina Totenberg
She didn't want to quit. And then by the time she did get sick, it was too late to do anything about it. So that's a sort of foolish question. I don't have to answer that one. I know what the answer to that one is. But I'm wondering, because she was very wise, not necessarily about politics, but she was a very wise person who, what she would think of today's court. And for people who think it's that the outcome has been more than desultory but even frightening for some people, what would she tell those people to do about it? And I don't know what her answers would have been.
- [48:30]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, maybe we should have a seance or something. Maybe.
- [48:36]
Nina Totenberg
Yeah.
- [48:37]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So we're speaking of the Supreme Court. We're recording this in the summer, and I have no idea what's going to happen with our country between now and the time that this episode airs. I Mean, let's talk about the culture change that you've experienced covering the court over this very long period of time. I mean, you were there for the original Roe v. Wade decision, which is extraordinary actually. And then of course, most recently the Dobbs decision. I'm sure you have a lot of feelings about this that are unique to you. I mean, I'm not exactly sure how to phrase this. I guess I want to talk about restraint in journalism.
- [49:26]
Nina Totenberg
We have policies about that. Abe Rosenthal, who was for many years the executive editor of the New York Times, used to have this saying, forgive me for my language, but please, if you cover the circus, you don't fuck the elephants.
- [49:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, first of all, that's my new motto. That might be the best thing I've heard all week. I love it. I mean, of course, that was a different time and there is plenty of biased media coverage now, plenty, Fox News, et cetera. It's partisan. I guess my question to you is the following. Is it challenging to keep your own personal views apart from your reporting? Is it particularly challenging now?
- [50:22]
Nina Totenberg
It's particularly challenging now because if you had said to me 10 years ago that I would ever be saying regularly that a president lied when he said X, I would have said, no, we don't do that because they didn't lie like that. They may have overstated something, but they were afraid to lie. Now, people do not seem to be afraid to just tell bald faced lies. And that is very challenging to journalists, even journalists who, and maybe especially journalists who believe that we're not supposed to impose our views on other people, people we're supposed to.
- [51:20]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Is calling someone a liar imposing a view?
- [51:23]
Nina Totenberg
Well, if you say that somebody's a liar, you've made a very definite value judgment about them. And I know lots of Republicans, most of them are no longer in the House and Senate, but there are some who will tell you absolutely that Trump has lied and they will never say that publicly. So what do I do about that?
- [51:51]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What do you do about it?
- [51:53]
Nina Totenberg
Well, if you really want to know what people genuinely think, you have to keep people's confidences, if that's the terms of them talking to you. Otherwise who's going to trust you? You do have to do that. And I think the problem of bald faced lying is a relatively new one now. I didn't live through the Civil War and I didn't live through the late 1800s and I can't know what politics was like then. I only know what it's been like for my life, which is a pretty Now, a long life in Washington, and, and I came here as a quite young reporter, and I did not know of any president who lied willfully to the American public until well afterwards. The biggest lie, for example, we know that now that Lyndon Johnson lied about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolute to get the Gulf of Tonkin resolution through, but we didn't know that then. And maybe he didn't think he was lying, but it's a daily occurrence now in our political life. And I'm not just talking about Trump.
- [53:21]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, you're talking about a new culture.
- [53:23]
Nina Totenberg
I'm talking about a new culture.
- [53:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Have you lost faith? Do you have full faith into the judicial system, or has it been shaken? Do you have hope?
- [53:37]
Nina Totenberg
I don't actually know, but I try to tell myself always that, you know, the court for, I would say 80 or 90 years, was on a fairly steady. It moved back and forth from a bit from liberal to less liberal to more conservative, conservative to. But there always was a center on the court, and there isn't now. And I think that's dangerous. I do think that's dangerous. Maybe it's a reflection of my own political views that I think there always ought to be a center. It may be more a right center or a left center, but there ought to be a center that is a bipartisan center. That is, you know, so you could look at Justice O'Connor and Justice Kennedy, for example, who were the center of the court when they were on the court, and that is there's nobody like that anymore who's at all, to a very small extent, Justice Barrett, perhaps in this last term, but this term the court was on all of the biggest questions, the court, and there were a lot of big questions this term. The court was just divided six to three.
- [55:05]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So, Nina, I, of course, have to ask you about Anita Hill. When you reported that story, you got a lot of blowback, to say the least. How did you cope with that?
- [55:17]
Nina Totenberg
So this is probably a longer answer than you want, but I'm going to give it to you anyway.
- [55:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So give it to me, baby.
- [55:24]
Nina Totenberg
I had no idea when I broke that story how big a story it would be. I knew that after I broke the story and I had gotten an exclusive interview with Anita Hill, if she went to ground and just disappeared, that this story would die, that it wouldn't have legs on its own. What I didn't account for enough was how many women had had the experience of being hit on by their bosses. I remember walking into the Russell Senate Office Building the day that the second set of hearings opened and being shocked at this enormous media conglomerate that was there, and networks were carrying it live. In fact, the Thomas Hill hearings outranked the World Series. I think maybe it was the playoffs, but I think it was the World Series in terms of ratings.
- [56:30]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What year was this? What year was this, by the way?
- [56:33]
Nina Totenberg
1991. The fall of 91. So I had not anticipated this at all, but I did see what happened the minute I broke the story, and that was this rage from Republicans. So they got themselves a special counsel to investigate me and find out who the leak was. And of course, they did subpoena me. And I refused to. I went, I showed up, I complied with the subpoena, and I didn't tell them anything. And it was very. I guess the word is intimidating. But it really paid to be in my middle 40s at the time, because I did have a lot of experience.
- [57:22]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [57:23]
Nina Totenberg
And the night I broke the story, I was on Nightline, and there were a bunch of senators on Alan Simpson and the late Paul Simon. And I knew enough to keep my eye on the clock and to get the last word and say that if I. What I really wanted to say, which was, if you had looked into this, I wouldn't have had a scoop. You buried it, you senators, you buried it. And I got a scoop because you buried it. And I had enough sense to realize that something was going on and to start probing to find out what the hell it was. I didn't know what it was when I started, so. So that made Senator Simpson very mad at me. But we eventually buried the hatchet and became good friends. It was in both our interests, I would have to say. And I like Alan Simpson.
- [58:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And did you. Did he have any regret about that incident? In retrospect, I don't know.
- [58:30]
Nina Totenberg
But he has a wife and a daughter who made very clear that he needed to make peace. And I was very clear that I wanted to make peace. So I invited him to the. One of these correspondence dinners, and he came and even brought me a corsage. And he was the Republican whip, and he came in the fancy car, you know, the limo from the. We went. We were the stars of the evening because we were the unexpected duo there.
- [59:02]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, you made nice.
- [59:03]
Nina Totenberg
Yes, we made nice. And it was a good thing. We have both, I think, enjoyed each other's thoughts and friendships since then. But at the time I remember coming home from that broadcast, two things happened. My husband, who was a former senator, greeted me, sort of. He was up on the stairs when I walked in and he said, what's wrong? And I said, I lost my temper at Alan Simpson and. And I called him bad words and I cried. And he. Because we'd had a contretemps outside and.
- [59:41]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, that was outside. That wasn't on air.
- [59:43]
Nina Totenberg
That was not on the air. That was outside. And he said, well, this was one of those nights where they'd had football, so it was delayed. So he said, well, let's watch it. And so we watched it. And he said, you won. Come on, let's go to bed. And then I called my sister the next day. My sister Jill, I have two sisters. One is a federal judge in Atlanta and one has her own PR business in New York. And I called her and I was weeping because, of course, people were trying to dig up dirt on me now, and it was very unpleasant. And she said, you just have to suck it up. There's nothing you can do about it. Just do your job. It was great advice, but I would not have known all of those things when I was 27, for example, instead of, I think it was 46 or 47 at the time, I don't remember, but I would not have known that when I was in my 20s.
- [60:37]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I got it. Yes, of course. That makes sense. Okay, so wrapping up, I'm going to ask you a few sort of rapid fire questions.
- [60:48]
Nina Totenberg
Okay.
- [60:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21, Nina Totenberg I.
- [60:56]
Nina Totenberg
Probably would tell myself, you will make it so. Just calm down.
- [61:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [61:04]
Nina Totenberg
You don't have to be quite this pushy.
- [61:07]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Is there something you go back and say yes to?
- [61:11]
Nina Totenberg
Something that I said no to and that I would say yes to? I can't think of anything like that.
- [61:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Is there anything that you wish you'd spent less time on, Nina?
- [61:23]
Nina Totenberg
Well, I wish I'd spent less time perseverating about all manner of things and less time worrying about what people would think of me. Or, you know, Cokie once was doing an obituary, which we do in our business, in advance of Gerald Ford. Stein, he wasn't dying at the time. We just do these, right.
- [61:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know people are shocked, shocked.
- [61:57]
Nina Totenberg
It doesn't shock you, but. And she was, you know, pawing her way through reams of tape. And one of the videotapes that she was looking at was the press conference that Ford had right after Nixon resigned. His first press conference. And I was at that press conference and I was, you know, and I got a question in. I asked him a pardon question. And I'm looking at this picture of myself and I was really pretty. And I had no idea of that then.
- [62:40]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [62:41]
Nina Totenberg
And I wish I had had at least a little bit of idea that I was pretty and not. Cause I always felt that I wasn't.
- [62:51]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, it's that adage. Youth is wasted on the young.
- [62:54]
Nina Totenberg
Yes, exactly. Right.
- [62:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. What are you looking forward to?
- [63:02]
Nina Totenberg
I'm looking forward to getting rid of the cane. I'm really looking forward to my vacation this summer. I've earned it this year. It was a really tough year and. And going back to work, when I went back to work was essential or my brain would have turned to mush. But it was hard. It was very hard work. And the term has been very hard work. It's been hard for them, the justices, too. I don't remember any term in which there were so many important cases.
- [63:39]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right.
- [63:40]
Nina Totenberg
And there's always a train wreck at the end of cases that are backed up. But this year was even worse than usual, and it was just an enormous amount of work.
- [63:53]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you want to keep working? I know you're ready for a break right now, but is your plan. You don't seem to me to be the retiring type.
- [64:01]
Nina Totenberg
No, I'm not. That's. I consider that the R word. I won't let my husband retire either.
- [64:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. So you're just going to keep going? Is that the plan?
- [64:09]
Nina Totenberg
I'm going to keep going as long as Justice Ginsburg used to say, as long as I think I can do the job. Now, my father died at 101 and was a virtuoso violinist, and he really didn't want to die. But in the end, you know, even he couldn't stay alive longer than he stayed alive. I came. He can't do what he did, which is in the last 10 years or so of his life, he did relatively little performing, certainly, and not any, I think, after he was about 95. But he taught and he played for fun. And I don't think you. I don't think my brain will hold up long enough for me to be on the radio when I'm 95 or 90 maybe, but. So I can't.
- [65:04]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It might be.
- [65:05]
Nina Totenberg
Yeah, maybe I'll be a guest. I'll be a guest person. I'll make the occasional appearance in which I can write about the court or talk about the court in different ways. I don't know. I haven't figured that out.
- [65:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, you don't need to right now.
- [65:21]
Nina Totenberg
No, I don't have to. If there were an easy way to do a little less work I probably would, but there's no way to do a good job without working hard. I'm sorry. There's not a way to do that most of the time.
- [65:37]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I think that's the advice of this whole long conversation. Hard work equals good job, period. End of story, Right?
- [65:47]
Nina Totenberg
It is. And being lucky in your family and the people who love you.
- [65:52]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Thank you so much for talking with us today. I just. I just adore you and am grateful to you for your hard work. And I mean that from the bottom of my.
- [66:01]
Nina Totenberg
That's so lovely of you. And for those of you who are dying to know how old I am, just look it up.
- [66:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, if you have Google, Google it.
- [66:10]
Nina Totenberg
If you have Google, you can Google it. Yeah, if it says I'm 90, I'm not.
- [66:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
All right. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you again, and thank you for having.
- [66:21]
Nina Totenberg
Having me.
- [66:21]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Of course. Such a pleasure. Well, that was a trip. Having a conversation with someone whose voice you know so well, but with whom you've never spoken. That's just wild. I gotta get my mom on a zoom to tell her all about it. Hi, Mom.
- [66:45]
Judith Bowles
Oh. Oh, hi, love. Hello.
- [66:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
How are you?
- [66:48]
Judith Bowles
I'm good. How are you?
- [66:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I'm good. I just talked to Nina Totenberg.
- [66:53]
Judith Bowles
Well, I'm so excited about that.
- [66:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
God, mom, we talked about so much. But she was talking about. Up until she was really. I think she said into her 50s, Nina Totenberg, very often when she got. When she started to write a story, she felt sort of like a fraud. Like she was playing at the role of journalists as opposed to being a journalist. I'm putting words in her mouth there, but I think that sort of. There was a sort of a very. And she characterized it as being very female. Her lack of security, confidence in herself as a journalist. And she had to. In her life, she said, to push back against that, and she has successfully done so. Now she's 80. She didn't want to say her age, by the way. She's the first guest we've ever had who didn't want to say her age, which I thought was kind of strangely charming, because obviously you can Google it. And she said, you can Google it, but she still don't want to say it. But anyway, have you had that experience, mom, feeling that way, like, as a writer?
- [68:11]
Judith Bowles
But first of all, I want to say, why did you use the word frog?
- [68:14]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, first of all, I didn't say frog. I said fraud. I said.
- [68:24]
Judith Bowles
Okay, okay. Well, that's. That's so.
- [68:27]
Nina Totenberg
That's.
- [68:28]
Judith Bowles
That's wonderful. All right. Well, we'll just move on for that.
- [68:34]
Nina Totenberg
Rivet.
- [68:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Rivet.
- [68:41]
Judith Bowles
All right.
- [68:43]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
There's no way. There is no way that that isn't the funniest thing I've heard in like, a week.
- [68:52]
Nina Totenberg
Wait, wait.
- [68:53]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Brad has come in here and ruining the podcast because he heard it, too. And now he's lying on the floor in the hallway in clutching his stomach. Yes, she was. She had a story to write, and she felt like she couldn't because she was a frog.
- [69:16]
Judith Bowles
Well, then she was right to not write it because.
- [69:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, fuck. That is hilarious, Mom.
- [69:28]
Judith Bowles
Oh, that's so funny. Well, shall we get back?
- [69:32]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Have you ever felt a fraud or a frog?
- [69:36]
Judith Bowles
Yes. Let me tell you, that's a common thing you hear women say.
- [69:41]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [69:42]
Judith Bowles
What it took to make them feel legitimate and authentic.
- [69:46]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [69:47]
Judith Bowles
And I have a theory about it, at least as for myself. When we were young women who were born in the 30s and 40s, we didn't know what to do with our ambition. It was. Your ambition was always like, you don't go there. And what I mean is that, for instance, I was in college and I read about Claire Booth Luce. There was a long article about her, and I read about her, and I thought, that sounds so interesting.
- [70:20]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What was she doing?
- [70:21]
Judith Bowles
She was. Then, I guess she was named ambassador to Italy, or she would gotten into politics. And she was taken very seriously. She was married to Henry Luce. It was a huge thing in publishing. So I said to my godmother, I. I was in Florida with her, and I said to her, I've read this article about Claire Boothe Luce, and I'm fascinated. I think that would be such an interesting life. And so my Aunt Harriet, who is my godmother, said, yeah, it's very interesting, but you'd have to marry Henry Luce. So the point being that they were saying that all that happened to her because she was married to that person. And that was such a way of. It was like, don't acknowledge your own ambition. And so, consequently, I think that sometimes women that do. I think part of this is a little bit of that hangover that when you feel like you're not worthy of it or even after you prove yourself over and over again, I think that maybe it has to do with the fact that you don't. You don't quite permit your. Your ambition.
- [71:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That makes me angry hearing that story. I wish I could go back and change it for you.
- [71:31]
Judith Bowles
By the way, it is not an uncommon story. I mean, I bet you that, you know, my. My. My class and graduating class from college was 55, from high school was 51. And I bet you there are scads of women of my era. That's why I'm so interested in Nina Totenberg and the fact that she had that residue, a little bit of that residue, working for her, against her. And I should. Yeah, well.
- [72:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And my final words today are, screw you, Aunt Harriet, for your shitty remark. I don't like that at all.
- [72:10]
Judith Bowles
Well, anyway, he was also a product, you know.
- [72:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I know, but I'm still mad about it.
- [72:15]
Nina Totenberg
Yeah.
- [72:15]
Judith Bowles
Okay, well. Well, me too.
- [72:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Good Mommy.
- [72:19]
Nina Totenberg
Yeah.
- [72:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, well, listen, we're gonna go.
- [72:21]
Judith Bowles
Okay, well, much love, and I'm glad we got a good laugh today.
- [72:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, we got a good laugh.
- [72:27]
Judith Bowles
That was all the frogs are.
- [72:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
We've got a great inside joke. Ribbit, ribbit.
- [72:33]
Judith Bowles
Okay. Anyway, I love you so much.
- [72:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Love you, Mommy.
- [72:36]
Judith Bowles
Bye.
- [72:36]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me With Lemonada Premium on Apple, you can listen to every episode of season three ad free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamila zara Williams, Alex McCohan, and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of new content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Joni Vince Evans with engineering help from James Farber. And our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.
- [74:16]
Brad Hall
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