Julia Gets Wise with Pam Grier

Summary

Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Episode: Julia Gets Wise with Pam Grier
Date: May 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this rich and vibrant Season 4 opener, Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down with Pam Grier—icon, action star, activist, author, and farmer—for a revealing conversation about wisdom earned through life’s battles both on and off screen. Julia and Pam traverse topics from forging independence and reshaping the image of women in Hollywood to resilience through trauma, health crises, generational ties, and the joy and complexity of aging. Pam’s legendary career and candidness offer a powerful masterclass in guts, vulnerability, and gratitude.

The episode closes with Julia’s 91-year-old mother, Judith Bowles, reflecting on horses, family, and finding her voice—bringing the themes of female connection and generational wisdom full circle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Marvel, Stunts & Respect for Action Stars

• Julia shares her experiences doing her own stunts as Contessa Valentina in Marvel’s Thunderbolts and acknowledges the skill and grit required for action stars and stunt professionals.

"You really have to admire action movie stars because that shit is. Is not easy." (Julia, 02:50)

2. Pam Grier’s Groundbreaking Hollywood Legacy

• Julia introduces Pam’s achievements: First female action star in Hollywood, face of blaxploitation cinema, feminist icon, and creator of Soulflix—her curated streaming channel for classic Black cinema (05:00–07:00).
• Pam credits Stan Lee and cultural heroines like Gloria Steinem, Shirley Chisholm, and her mother with inspiring her path.

“Stan Lee... He based his characters on me.” (Pam, 07:55)

3. The Wisdom & Joys of Aging

• Pam jokes about her age (“I might be 77 this year… Nor do I care if I wake up breathing, I'm gonna have a good day.” 09:15–09:20) and delights with her perspective on orgasms at her age.

“When you get my age, you have one orgasm, it'll last three days.” (Pam, 09:35)

4. Healing from Childhood Trauma Through Horses

• Pam describes being gravely injured as a child and healing through a deep, transformative bond with a draft horse named Big Horse—that experience began her lifelong advocacy for animal rescue and equine therapy.

“The horses don't lie. They're very honest people. They can smell, breathe honesty.” (Pam, 12:52)

5. Family Lessons: Work Ethic, Independence, Community

• Pam’s grandfather taught her, “When a woman can do something, men will respect you.” (14:41)
• Stories of gender norms challenged (e.g., mowing the lawn in boots and an Armani suit—15:06), and how community values and mutual aid shaped her.
• Pam’s mother, after taking in more children, modeled empathy, self-sacrifice, and relentless service to others as a nurse.

6. Survivor Spirit: Navigating Social & Cultural Barriers

• As a young woman at UCLA in the 1960s, Pam worked five jobs (25:50–26:09), sang backup for Bobby Womack, Sly and the Family Stone (27:12 onwards), and fortuitously jammed near Jimi Hendrix and Buddy Miles.

“It was so funky. And in the corner is Buddy Miles on drums. It was like, okay, pinch me. Slap me upside the head.” (Pam, 28:53)

7. Female Friendships: Minnie Riperton & The Power of Women

• Pam recollects her deep friendship with singer Minnie Riperton, whom she calls “one of the fearless ladies of the fine arts” (30:00), and her continuing bonds with women from her acting life (31:21).

“Ooh, we could shake a tree. I'm telling you, we could shake a tree.” (Pam, 30:00)

8. Building Iconic Roles on Real Female Strength

• Coffy, Pam’s landmark film, was based on the strengths of her mother and the everyday women around her (32:19–33:44).

“My mother had quiet strength. She was an empath, frankly.” (Julia, 33:02)

9. Navigating Critiques of Blaxploitation & Ownership of Her Image

• Pam reflects on controversy around the blaxploitation genre and its sexual politics, ultimately reclaiming power and setting an example for women standing up in a patriarchal society (35:07–35:29).

10. Facing and Surviving Cancer

• Pam recounts her stage IV cervical cancer diagnosis (“I run seven miles a day… how did I get cancer?” 40:28–40:47).
• She honestly shares her fears, her circle of support—including celebrity friends—and the challenge of accepting help (41:05–42:52).

“I didn't want them to come… because I felt they're not going to tell me they don't want me to know I'm going to die or see it on their face.” (Pam, 41:48)

11. The Power of Community Through Crisis

• Both Pam and Julia discuss how their work communities rallied around them during cancer battles; the importance of reaching out to others in similar circumstances.

“Hearing from people who had gone through it was incredibly comforting to me…” (Julia, 44:01)

12. Artistic Process & Women’s Emotional Truth

• Julia lauds Pam’s performance in Jackie Brown, especially its emotional depth.
• Pam describes how Tarantino carefully mined her real life for authenticity in rehearsals and performance, and the added challenge of representing a woman’s emotional world on film (45:48–48:11).

13. Wisdom for the Next Generation & Philosophy on Aging

• Pam’s advice to her younger self: embrace opportunities, connect with others, remain open (49:53–50:39).
• On aging: “No one can help you get well… So how do you feel whole?... If I wake up breathing, I’m going to have a good day.” (Pam, 52:13)
• Julia sums up: “I think you’re talking about gratitude, right?” (52:17–52:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I think it’s my age. …when it happens, I just want to tell you, you just be prepared. It's going to be three whole days.” (Pam, on orgasms, 09:43)
• “The horses don’t lie. …I was mesmerized by him, his quietness. …I was being transformed.” (Pam, 12:52–13:12)
• “When a woman can do something, men will respect you.” (Pam quoting her grandfather, 14:41)
• "My mother had quiet strength. She was an empath, frankly." (Julia, 33:02)
• “You were the ever ready Bunny, or whatever that thing is, or the Energizer Bunny. You do not stop. Clearly.” (Julia, 44:57)
• “If I wake up breathing, I’m going to have a good day.” (Pam, 52:13)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:02–03:55 | Julia recounts stunts, Marvel, respect for action stars
• 05:00–07:27 | Introduction to Pam’s trailblazing career
• 09:09–10:14 | Pam on her age and joys of aging
• 10:42–14:03 | Healing trauma via childhood horse, equine therapy
• 14:41–16:49 | Family lessons: independence, work, community
• 18:03–18:38 | Pam’s mother modeling empathy and neighborly care
• 25:09–29:09 | Life upon moving to LA, youthful hustle, music, and backing for famed artists
• 30:00–31:26 | Female friendships, Minnie Riperton
• 32:19–33:44 | Coffy, real-life inspiration and her mother’s strength
• 35:07–35:29 | Reclaiming power in blaxploitation films
• 40:28–42:52 | Facing cancer, vulnerability, community in crisis
• 45:48–49:28 | Artistic process with Tarantino, emotional truth on film
• 51:01–52:23 | Wisdom about aging, finding wholeness, gratitude

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Second Half: “Mother Time” – Wisdom Across Generations

Judith Bowles on Horses, Family & Finding Voice (52:44–58:40)

• Julia speaks with her mom about childhood, developing confidence, and the liberating power of being on horseback as a timid young girl. Judith reflects on how horses made her feel powerful and “glorious.”
• Judith shares funny memories about being “allowed” to mouth the words in a church choir due to not being able to carry a tune, contrasting her talents with Pam’s musical gifts.

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Final Reflections

This episode is a lively, profound celebration of Pam Grier’s legacy—and of strength, sisterhood, and gratitude. Julia Louis-Dreyfus’ open-hearted curiosity and Pam’s wit and candor make for an inspiring tribute to women who refuse to be sidelined at any age. If you want to know what it means to age unapologetically and joyfully, this conversation is a masterclass.

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For deeper dives and exclusive extras, Julia mentions the new Wiser Than Me newsletter at wiserthanme.substack.com.

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Listen for:

• How the groundbreaking women of the 1970s shaped Pam’s fight (08:06)
• Intimate, hilarious, and unfiltered talk about sex and aging (09:35)
• The moving story of trauma, equine therapy, and connection (10:42–14:08)
• Behind-the-scenes in Hollywood’s feminist and racial revolutions (25:09–29:37)
• The circle of giving and receiving support in health and hardship (41:05–44:46)
• Unfiltered advice on surviving, striving, and thriving—at every age (52:11–52:23)

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Lemonada. So I got to play Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine in the Marvel Comics universe. That name still makes me laugh. I first appear in the post credits of Black Widow and then in Black Panther Wakanda Forever. And then I'm the bad guy in Thunderbolts. And I have to say, the whole thing, it was just a blast. In the original Thunderbolts script, there's this scene where my character really beats the crap out of a guy and takes his walkie talkie and screams, cease fire. Cease fire. And I told Jake Schreier, the director, that I wanted to do my own stunts for that scene. And he was like, sure, okay, great. And you have to understand, Marvel had this huge stunt facility in Atlanta. Like, it was like a massive gymnasium. And when I walked in, Lewis Pullman was getting levitated on wires over here and Florence Pugh was getting crushed by fake rocks over there and stuff. And I mean, it was just so Hollywood. It was so fabulous. And my fight, which was maybe about 15 or 12 seconds long, turned out to be kind of complicated. And it was all choreographed to beats like one, grab at the gun, two, elbow to face, three, spin and kneel, and four, leap up and scream, cease fire. Cease fire. You know, it was like very choreographed and really broken down. And after a couple of hours of rehearsing, I was so drenched and the stunt guys were drenched and we routined it and we rehearsed where the camera would be and we altered the sequence and we did all this choreography. And I have to say something, honestly, it was pretty goddamn good. It really was. And then Jake, he watched it and he realized that the fight, which was all within a much bigger action sequence, would really slow down the build. So we went back and we re choreographed the whole thing. And it went from 15 seconds to maybe two seconds. You know, instead of like 1, 2, 3, 4, it just became one. So if you go back and you watch the movie, you'll see it's like, bam, bam, it's over. And rather than a big badass fight, it's like a flash of violence that builds the drama of a larger action scene, which is appropriate. It's also at night too, so you can't even see it as much as you can actually feel it. All of that choreography, all of that rehearsal, which took days, and in the end, it's just two seconds in a 126 minute movie. And when I saw the movie for the first time, I admit I was a little excited when that scene was coming up because it was my first on screen, you know, proper fight. And then it came and it went so fast I started to laugh. I mean, I was a little disappointed not to really kick some ass on screen, but you know, man, you really have to admire action movie stars because that shit is. Is not easy. I should say that later in the movie, Valentina does get a big action moment. There's this major fight scene where Sentry takes me by the neck and I fly, quite literally, like 25ft across the room and into a wall. Did I say I fly? No, I don't fly. My stunt person, Stephanie Bauer, flies.

[Pam Grier]

And.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And it's fantastic. So I should say that you really have to admire the stars and the stunt people like Stephanie and our coordinator, Heidi Moneymaker. What they do truly is Hollywood magic, no doubt about it. And that is why I'm so happy that the woman we get to talk to today did her own stunts on screen and fought her own fights off the screen too. And she's still fighting the legendary Pam Grier. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus and this is Wiser than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. In 1973, decades before G.I. jane or Lara Croft, when women were simply not allowed to kick your ass in the movies, Pamela Suzette Greer walked onto screens across America as coffee blew a guy's head off with a double barreled shotgun and changed cinema forever. No exaggeration. Coffee knocked James Bond out of the number one spot at the box office. And Pam became the face of the blaxploitation genre. She got a three picture deal and became the first female action star in Hollywood history. Not a sidekick, not a love interest, not window dressing the hero. As her star rose in movies like Foxy Brown and Sheba Baby, she also became a respected figure in the women's movement. She was the first black woman on the COVID of Ms. Magazine, the most important feminist publication in the country in 1975. And that same year, New York magazine hailed her as the sex goddess of the 70s. That's a pretty neat trick. After she came out of the grindhouse, Quentin Tarantino couldn't resist making her. Jackie Brown in Jackie Brown. She's a Golden Globe nominee, a SAG nominee, an Emmy nominee, an NAACP Image award winner for best actress in a play. Big screen, small screen. ST has conquered all three. Off screen, she is, by her own proud admission, a geek. She holds two honorary doctorates, one of them awarded for her work in organic gardening and farming. She's a New York Times bestselling author of her own memoir. And get this, she's a legit cowgirl. Just last year, she launched Pam Grier's soulflix, a free streaming channel personally curated by her. Classic black cinema, blaxploitation, soul and funk, sound soundtracks, Sidney Poitier, Richard Pryor. A living, breathing archive of a culture. She said, this belongs to everyone and it's free. So, yeah, she's still grinding. So please welcome an activist, a farmer, an actor, an author, and a horse girl, A woman who is so much wiser than me, Pam Grier. Hi, Pam Grier. I'm so happy to see you.

[Pam Grier]

Oh, my. I did all that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you did. You did. Woman, you are the coolest.

[Pam Grier]

Do you want to know there's a lot of people, not a lot, but a few, that have given me encouragement in life. Oh, who? Stan Lee.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Stan Lee. Oh, my God. He basically invented Marvel Comics. He's a legend.

[Pam Grier]

Stan Lee, who wrote about Mr. Knight and Amanda Waller.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Pam Grier]

He based his characters on me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. That is so cool. Yeah. I can see Pam Grier in Invisible Woman. Oh, my God, I love that.

[Pam Grier]

I've learned such great lessons from so many people. Gloria Steinem, between she and Shirley Chisholm, Barbara Jordan, Bella Abzug. There was a group of women who were the thinkers for us as we saw our moms having secret parties of independence and liberation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Interesting.

[Pam Grier]

That's when it started.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Pam Grier]

And Gloria being the vanguard of that. Letting us know that it's okay to be free. And you're gonna love it when you have it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. To be free and to own it and to be out there with your true, honest self. All of it. All of it.

[Pam Grier]

It's so healthy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Isn't it, though?

[Pam Grier]

And it gives you such confidence.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. Which is so important. Of course. But I do wanna back up for a second. I need to ask you some opening questions, if you don't mind. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age? And what is it, please?

[Pam Grier]

I think. I think I might be 77 this year. I might be.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Pam Grier]

I don't know. Nor do I care if I wake up breathing. I'm gonna have a good day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, just by the amount of energy you have right now and the bubbling up zest you've got for life. I was gonna ask you, how old do you feel? But you must feel very young. You seem very young to me. Do you feel young?

[Pam Grier]

Yes, I do. Because when you're young, you can have 3, 4, 5 orgasms in an hour. But when you get my age, you have one orgasm, it'll last three days.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What are you talking about? Like, what are you doing down there to get a three day orgasm? I need details.

[Pam Grier]

You don't have to do anything, but when it happens, I just want to tell you, you just be prepared. It's going to be three whole days.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But let me ask you something. I don't understand what you're talking about. In other words, have you figured out a way to orgasm that creates a three day orgasm or you're just saying because of your age? There's something about it.

[Pam Grier]

I think it's my age. I think it's my age.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh my God. Maybe when you're 90, it'll be a whole week.

[Pam Grier]

If I could have had that when I was younger, I would have had a better life and better boyfriends.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, well, so you know what? I was gonna ask you what's the best part about being your age, but I obviously know what the answer is. It's a three day orgasm. Hey, I mean, that's clear. Hey, listen, are you in Santa Fe right now?

[Pam Grier]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you have like a ranch with horses and rescue horses and dogs and stuff like that, is that right? Oh my God. Well, how did you get into rescuing animals?

[Pam Grier]

Well, my family's draft horse on their farm in Wyoming saved me, rescued me from trauma, serious trauma, when I was five, six years old.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right, that's right. That was a horse that you were called, that was called Big Horse.

[Pam Grier]

Big Horse, right, that was Big Horse.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I want to hear for our listeners. I think this is really interesting because really what you're talking about is a kind of, can we call it equine therapy? I think you can. Can you talk about what you were up against and exactly how the horse saved you? Cause that's an amazing story, I think.

[Pam Grier]

Yes, A little boy sitting behind me in my kindergarten class hit me in the head with a chair because I didn't pay attention to him and cracked my skull. Bleeding brain, you know, and I still stutter. I still have some, you know, some evidence of trauma.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you started stuttering after that incident?

[Pam Grier]

Yeah, absolutely. I had a different mental state. And my grandfather would take me to the farm in Wyoming to keep me away from urban hostility, to heal maybe, and which was a better life, a quiet life. He was, it was a beautiful life, ranching, farming animals. Just the calmingness, the, you know, the things that would take away my, you know, take away the noise, the anxiety, the noise, the aggression of city ness. And if that makes any sense. There is a great difference.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But then what happened with Big Horse? I'm so curious.

[Pam Grier]

Well, I think he's part Belgian and part Clydesdale, but he was a big draft horse, like 19, 20 hands, you know, very tall. And I could walk underneath him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Pam Grier]

And he turned and looked at me with these big eyes. And I was mesmerized by him, his quietness. And I was just little puny, broken child. I mean, seriously. And I'd never felt before. Everyone was distant. Kids, go away outside. Go play, you know? And he was welcoming.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was otherworldly, is what it sounds like with horses.

[Pam Grier]

The horses don't lie. They're very honest people. They can smell, breathe honesty. And I have replicated my experiences with other people.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me.

[Pam Grier]

Many horses, if you ride them, no matter how wild they are, they'll do anything to keep you on their back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's fascinating.

[Pam Grier]

And he started taking me around the family farm, and every vibration, every step just went through my body. And I was, wow. And I'd seen people ride horses before, but I didn't know what it meant. I was too small. No connection, nothing yet. And he started trotting. And that's just a walk. Now, when he started trotting, he was like. And I could feel the difference. Then he started cantering. Da, da da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And I could see the trees get closer and the birds flying over me. And I was, wow, I am being transformed.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And after that happened, you started to become a different person. Is that right?

[Pam Grier]

The healing, the connections. Yeah, that symbiosis, that symbiotic, that thing. Connection that we have with animals.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I mean, I totally believe in that powerful connection with animals. I completely get it. But you were very close with your grandfather, your daddy, Ray. And I know he was a gardener, and his garden was his pride and joy. Can you talk about the values that your grandfather instilled in you?

[Pam Grier]

He said, pammy, when a woman can do something, men will respect you. He always told me that. They may not like it, they may fight it, they may not say thank you. I remember when I cut my stepdad's grass, he was so upset with me. He didn't talk to me for six years. And then finally he apologized and said thank you because he was sick and he couldn't do it. And I did a better job. I cut his grass with some boots on and an Armani suit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Girl. Hey, well, wait a minute. Why was he upset with you for cutting his grass? I don't get that at all.

[Pam Grier]

Conservative men.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You mean he felt emasculated?

[Pam Grier]

Absolutely.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Jesus Christ.

[Pam Grier]

Because why? God's a man. God's a man. And we're men. So we're God. You pay attention. We settle. We do everything. If we can't work anymore, and you, you can't. I don't want you to do it. I don't want you to do better than me. I don't want the neighborhood. See, you do cut the lawn when that's what I do, the hay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But your daddy, Ray really instilled in you a sense of ownership and getting it done.

[Pam Grier]

And independence.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And independence, yes.

[Pam Grier]

And he was prideful. I could get on the roof and put up tar paper.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. I gotta tell you something. I could not get on the roof and put up tar paper or I couldn't get on the roof. I don't know how to get on the roof. I don't know. I mean, do we have a ladder? I don't even know if I have a ladder. But I'll tell you what I can do. I can make marmalade. I can make jam. So I know how to do that from my fruit. So that's something anyway, I guess.

[Pam Grier]

Hey, when you can make marmalade and fruit, grape, cherry and jam. Jelly and jam, we learned so well how to preserve. And when you had an abundance of a crop, you share it with your neighbor and they would share theirs with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, in Washington, D.C. where I grew up, we didn't have crops, but we did have a refrigerator. And I take stuff, and I wouldn't give it away like your neighbors, but I'd sell it, like at a stand. God, I was a terrible child. But honestly, I really do love that sense of community that you grew up in. I mean, it really seems magical.

[Pam Grier]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And staying in your childhood, when you were 13, your parents got divorced and then your mom was the head of the household, right?

[Pam Grier]

Yes. And she took in three more children, her sister's three children. So she took care of six kids as an emergency.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, she must have been your. She was the role model. Your role model.

[Pam Grier]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What did she model for you?

[Pam Grier]

There was this atmosphere of people not having health care and couldn't get into every hospital. And it was just one of them, really. Denver General. And so every nurse and doctor that lived in the community would get a knock at the door. Maybe late at night, someone had an accident, broke an arm, fell injury. And my mom. Doctors in the neighborhood opened their doors and my mom did that. And Pammy, we got somebody here I need you to help me, you know, with some ACE bandages and, you know, my mom's gonna be boiling water and has mercuricum and cotton and, you know, everything she brings from work home. And she's rendering some help to someone who's injured.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Pam Grier]

Because they couldn't find. There's no emergency. There's no, you know, people to come and take them to a hospital, which one, you know, so we didn't have that. So the community and my mom, many nights, many nights were doing helping citizens and it didn't matter what color, what race, who you were. You came in bloodied, you'd be cleaned up and driven home. And you might get a bucket of chicken and some potato salad to take with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Let's take a quick break. More with Pam Grier in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser Than Me newsletter on Substack where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Pam and more. You can subscribe subscribe now at wiserthanme.substack.com youm're going to get photos, videos, letters from me, think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, Real deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser than Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiser than me.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back. This message comes from Harvard Business School Executive Education. Now is the time to invest in yourself and change the world with your voice. Their programs connect you with faculty at the forefront of their fields, introduce you to a global network of leaders, and help you step into your full potential. The next chapter is yours. Let them help you write it. 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[Pam Grier]

To film school with my PO Ass.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

To film school, yeah. And you spent a lot of time on the UCLA campus. And there was a lot of. I mean, this is 1968. There were a lot of social movements happening around that time. What was that like for you as a young woman? Here you are, 19. Did you feel part of the social and political movements at that time?

[Pam Grier]

I did. And I said, it's about time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally. How did you support yourself during that time when you were first coming to la? Did you. Were you just like juggling a million jobs? What'd you do?

[Pam Grier]

I only had five. I had five jobs.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Five.

[Pam Grier]

I would serve data machines at a radio station. So I learned how to do that. And then I worked as a receptionist at aip, American International Pictures. Everybody needed a receptionist who was poor and had one skirt and one blouse. That was me. And then at night, I played music at a sports club, a very elitist sport club.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And weren't you also a backup singer for Bobby Womack?

[Pam Grier]

Well. Well, I was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, please tell that story. And for our listeners, tell them who Bobby Wommack is.

[Pam Grier]

Bobby Womack was one of the top R and B. He wrote for Sam Cooke. He was part of the Falcons. He was a musician. He played guitar. He heard through somebody and I don't know who, probably relatives coming back and forth, that I was a student and I could sing in my octaves and play gospel and Jazz and all this stuff. He calls me and he says, okay, I need you to sing on this album. And I did. It was a hit album, hit song. And he said, I have a friend who's singing at CBS Records on Sunset.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Pam Grier]

And he says. So he's looking for some more backup singers. I go to this address on Sunset Boulevard. CBS Records drove through the gate and everything. And they wouldn't let me park my raggedy car. So they said, leave that out here. And you come on in and sign in. You're gonna be singing for Sly in the Family Stone.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God, no.

[Pam Grier]

I feel like Forrest Gump now. I look like I'm Forrest Gump. And so the guy says, have you sung with Wonderlove before? I went, oh, of course. Yeah, sure. Stevie Wonders, backup singers. Denise Williams, Syreeta Wright, Minnie Riperton. I could go on and on. And here's these incredible singers sitting over there, like. And they're all dressed up beautifully. It's like 1am and they say, well, it's ready. Sly's ready for you to come in. He's got you some licks. He wants you to do harmonies. And, like, okay. They get up, you know, because they're used to touring. They're used to, you know. And I'm like, okay. And I'm trying to be sophisticated like them and walk like them, like, you know, and everything. And he goes in and he could tell the bumpkin who fell off the turnip truck. So he gives us the jam. We sing, hey, hey. And he's this jam, if they could find it. It was so funky. And in the corner is Buddy Miles on drums. It was like, okay, pinch me. Slap me upside the head. And the elevator opens up at the end of the hallway. It's dark, you know, everything's dark in studios at nighttime. It's like the club that, you know, that you sing in and everything. And so the door is open, and there's three guys in it. And you just see the light from the top of the ceiling of the elevator. And in the middle is a guy with a black. And he's. Oh, black silhouette. He walks by me. The black hat. I could smell patchouli oil. That's what all the college kids were wearing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Pam Grier]

And it was Jimi Hendrix, get the Fuck out. And A Band of Gypsies. He had just started it with Buddy Miles, and Buddy called him to come over and slide. He came in the studio, and it must have been 100 people looking through the window. Can you imagine? Can you imagine?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I actually cannot I cannot believe what you're saying. That is Forrest Gumpian for sure. I just can't get over it.

[Pam Grier]

And they start hugging, and he has a big fro and teeth and some chamois fringe. And Hendrix has on black and a concho belt. And he's like. And they start. And he hands Jimmy a guitar and they start jamming. Waga waga wagg. And Buddy starts playing. And the funk is so thick in that room. It is so thick in that room. It's like everyone's just staring.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, staring. Your jaw must have been on the ground. Yeah, yeah. You are one lucky woman. You know, you talk a lot about the women in your life. Your mom, your aunties in your memoir, and your female friend. And you have this one incredible female friendship with Minnie Riperton. I think you called her one of the fearless ladies of the fine arts, which is so nice.

[Pam Grier]

Ooh, we could shake a tree. I'm telling you, we could shake a tree. And she had that even in her singing. La la la la la.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Pam Grier]

La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la. It's angelic.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Pam Grier]

But she's from Chicago. She gonna whoop your ass on the way down. La la la Bo about, you know, the days that we had to fight back. And with her, whether it's friends, family, church, street, whatever. And she had a broad, broad, broad, incredible sense of humor and passion.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Clearly, she gave that to her daughter. I know you're in touch with. For our listeners who may not know, Minnie was Maya Rudolph's mom. And of course, Maya can sing beautifully in addition to being the funniest person.

[Pam Grier]

Hilarious, that little four, those little freckles, you know, on that child. And she would laugh. And we knew she was going to be in show business some kind of way because she was around music before she was born.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What about your friendship with Minnie was. What did she provide for you?

[Pam Grier]

Clothing and makeup.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But what about, like, do you have a lot of female friendships now, Pam? Yes. You do.

[Pam Grier]

I do. From Lake Bell. I love Jennifer Bills. When I did the L Word for six years, all the girls, I was a mama kit. And I would bring my horses up for therapy. I would continue to train my horses. I take them up to Canada. And she would say, most people travel with their dogs. Pam travels with her horses. And so they gave me, you know, the props, and I was training my horses. And I never let that go. Cause that's my therapy as well. From then to now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know I can hear how much horses Mean to you. And I love that you have that in your life now. Pam, I have to talk to you about the movie Coffee because it is so iconic. I mean, that movie kicked James Bond off the top of the charts. That's just extraordinary. And I know you developed that character based on your mom. Did she know that you were doing that?

[Pam Grier]

I told her. I said, mom, what made you most proud of you? She said, I could help people. I bandaged people during the night. I could have probably injured that came in in a week, maybe five or 10 people. I risked my neck to help people. People were dropped on the back of their gate at their yard, and they would drag him in and she'd sit him up in the kitchen and try to help people.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Pam Grier]

And we didn't call the police. We didn't call the detectives. We didn't make a mess of it. She didn't say hi, I did this. She kept it quiet. Everybody quiet. And everybody knew if my mom could do it, she would be there for them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, your mother had quiet strength. She was an empath, frankly.

[Pam Grier]

She was a unbelievable empathetic person.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But that's who you were playing. That's who you played in Coffee.

[Pam Grier]

And you risk your life. You don't know who's crazy that you let in your house.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Pam Grier]

She went to school to be a nurse and taking care of her children and her sister's children and the family.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I mean, I would hope that your mom recognized how you recognized in her that empathy, that powerful, quiet muscle that she was. And not only for her own family, but for the community, because that's who you played.

[Pam Grier]

Can I tell you something? I gotta tell you something.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me.

[Pam Grier]

There are sometimes. My mom said, I can't do this anymore. She's a nurse, an ER nurse from 3 to 11, you know, and trying to save every dime for my debutante, you know, my ball dress, anything that, you know, that I wanted, so what I wanted to see. And sometimes men don't like to see women cry on film. And that's the power and the strength of a woman, is when I wanted to see whether it was my sister or a stranger, I wanted to see her try her best and fail and see what that arc is like so that everyone can see, are you failing? But you tried. Maybe it wasn't their time, but, you know, and that's. I see that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did your mom see Coffee?

[Pam Grier]

Oh, yeah. And that's the first thing she said. How come you never showed me crying? You know, I can't save the world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And the film was obviously incredibly successful, but at the same time, it was debated in the country because the whole genre of blaxploitation was really controversial. How do you look back on it now?

[Pam Grier]

Well, they said, oh, my God. They're saying brown nipples, sexuality. Oh, my God. But that was a sexual revolution, as it was. But now I'm turning it into winning and not losing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Pam Grier]

And that's what they got. And women were, you know, they were heralding me. They were like, yes, we can stand up to our men. You know, going through so much with the patriarchal society.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You were so young when all of this was happening. I'm wondering if at the time when it was being debated from a cultural point of view, did you feel centered about that or have you come to sort of. You did good. I'm glad you did.

[Pam Grier]

Gloria Steinem did. All the women that stood behind me stood behind me saying, you put on makeup for you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. I mean, obviously Gloria is such a formidable force and she's really changed the way that we think of ourselves as women.

[Pam Grier]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She was a guest on this show too, by the way. And then afterwards she actually invited me over and I got to be with her iconic living room. I love knowing that you and Gloria Steinem are pals.

[Pam Grier]

Right? Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's time for another break. My conversation with Pam Grier continues right after this. Ready to fall in love with television again? Britbox has the sort of British TV that's likely to sweep you off your feet. Sharp writing, stunning backdrops, characters with plenty of baggage underneath all that clever understatement. From mysteries to period dramas, Britbock serves up the kind of series that politely suggests just one more and suddenly it's 2am once scandal and intrigue, you could watch the Lady, a new drama from the producers of the Crown. It's inspired by the true story of Jane Andrews, who's unlikely rise to royal dresser ended in tragedy and murder. Prefer drama with a comedic edge. You could watch Riot Women from award winning creator Sally Wainwright. It follows a crew of menopausal women who decide to stop apologizing and start a punk band, as they should. There's so much to watch. You could disappear for months and emerge with a British accent and a taste for dry humor and damp weather. What's even more enticing, BritBox is ad free and you can try it for free. So go to Britbox.com and start streaming with the free trial today. Okay. Summer is literally right there and the group chat is already buzzing. Someone bought festival tickets. There's a wedding, a birthday that turns into a whole weekend. The simple cookout now somehow has a theme and a dress code. And you're saying yes to all of it because that's just what summer is. It's the season to show up and getting ready for it, that's its own thing. Getting dressed with your friends, trying on three different outfits, actually building a look instead of hoping something shows up in a box and fits sometime you need to feel the fabric. Try things on in real light with a real mirror and options flying over the dressing room door. That energy Macy's has it. Macy's personal stylists are there to help you nail the look for whatever's on your summer calendar. The hipster wedding, the festival, the anniversary dinner, the we're finally doing this trip, trip, book a free appointment, tell them the vibe and they'll build it out head to toe. Outfit, shoes, accessories, beauty. All in one place and you get 20% off purchase with them. Free session. 20% off and you actually like what you end up with. Booky's.com so many women are in their protein era right now. Suddenly everyone is taking creatine and lifting things and reading labels like it's their job. Protein bars are taking over grocery aisles, but ingredients you've never heard of and a sore jaw from a cardboard like protein bar? No thank you. You Aloha is different. It's taste that grows. Yes, literally made with plant based organic ingredients that actually grow somewhere like outside, like in the ground. Not engineered in a lab. No sketchy fillers, no hard on your gut surprises. Just thoughtfully grown ingredients that feel as good as they taste. And the numbers make sense. 14 grams of protein up to 10 grams of fiber. That's not the sexiest thing, but it's very important. And only 5 grams of sugar or fuel. 5. That's a civilized number. It's tasty, balanced protein that doesn't taste like punishment for once. So whether you're currently or eternally in your protein era, just know there's a reasonable, delicious option out there waiting for you. Look for Aloha protein bars at your local grocery store [e-mail] aloha taste that grows in 88 you had a routine visit to your doctor. Your pap smear came back a little bit off. You had no symptoms at all. But this eventually led to a diagnosis of stage four cervical cancer. My God, how did you get through that? And I'm asking you this? Cause I'm a cancer survivor myself and it requires a kind of Strength that you don't necessarily know you have. So I'm curious what your experience was.

[Pam Grier]

Like, I run seven miles a day. I get aches and pulls and strains. What is that? Did I miss that? Did I overlook that pain? Did I? You know, I'm really healthy. I'm really healthy. How did I get cancer? I rode my bike to the gym, you know, in Los Angeles. I rode from house to my jobs downtown.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You can make yourself crazy trying to figure out how it happened. God knows I've done it.

[Pam Grier]

And you do. You do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What happened? Did you get chemo? Did you get a hysterectomy? What happened?

[Pam Grier]

I got a. A partial hysterectomy. We kept the ovaries so I could have hormones.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good.

[Pam Grier]

I would fly in from Colorado every week in my pajamas, see everybody at Cedars and go through all the treatment. Steven Seagal came. Tamara Hoffs, my Women in Film sponsor. She's the mom of she's in the Bangle, Susannah, Susanna Haas and Gregory Hines. And people were coming. I thought I was going to die. I thought they knew something that I didn't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, interesting.

[Pam Grier]

And I didn't want them to come and see me anymore because I felt they're not going to tell me they don't want me to know I'm going to die or see it on their face. And you do see when they come in and see you, you can see everything they're seeing about you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I can totally relate. Pam. I so get it. Were you like studying their faces and did you actually ask them what are you not telling me or anything like that?

[Pam Grier]

Nope. I was surprised that they came.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh.

[Pam Grier]

Peter Douglas, who hired me for the Ray Bradbury film. I guess they saw me robust and fun, comedic and beautiful stuff during Something Wicked this way comes. And then see me within 30 days in such a state, in a room with such equipment. This is not a joke. And maybe she is dying and this is it. So Peter came in, my mom was there. He came in with a blender, a bag of ice, and made margaritas. There's certain people that pull you back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh yes, 100%. I had those people too when I had my little, you know, cancer romp, as it were. And it was pretty wicked. But I have to say there was a moment actually, when a really close writer friend of mine, she'd gotten everybody these T shirts that said nevertheless. She persisted. And we all put it on. Yeah. And took a picture. All of us.

[Pam Grier]

I didn't get a T shirt. I got margaritas in the room.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, but I mean, the feeling was. The feeling was when you're in a. That's one thing that's really nice about the work that we do is the community of a project of, you know, be it a film or a TV show or whatever it is, that community is very felt, particularly in times of big fat trouble like you and I went through. And I think there's a lot of strength to be garnered from those moments, Right?

[Pam Grier]

Yes. Now, before you were ill or even while you were ill, when someone was experiencing what you were going through, did you go over and take care of them, bring them flowers, bring them food, bathe them, pick them up from their bed?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Absolutely, yes.

[Pam Grier]

Carry them from the bill to the torture?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

100%. And I reach out because it was very meaningful to me when I was sick, when I would talk to people who had gone through this, hearing from people who had gone through it was incredibly comforting to me because it meant, like, I could get to the other side of this and get on with my life, get this in the rear view mirror. So when I have the opportunity, actually, frankly, I did it just this week talking to somebody I didn't know, but she is going through breast cancer situation. And just to talk to her and tell her what my experience was and how to get through it and what I did, and here are these doctors. And it was comforting, I know, to her, but it's at the same time very comforting to me to give it,

[Pam Grier]

you know, I ain't giving up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Pam Grier]

I'm like, are you sure? Are you sure? Yep. Yep. God damn it. I got this far. I'm going to do it. I'm going to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You are the ever ready Bunny, or whatever that thing is, or the Energizer Bunny. You do not stop. Clearly. And while I have you here, Pam, I just have to say your Jackie Brown was sublime. Honestly, it was just out of this world.

[Pam Grier]

Oh, thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I got to watch it again recently in getting ready to talk to you. It's just such an incredible performance. And. And it was so. I don't even know where to begin. I saw in an interview with the New York Times, you said that sometimes you thought that maybe Tarantino could have done better at interpreting the emotional qualities of women, which are totally different from men. I agree with that. Of course they're different. Can you talk about that? What do you mean by that when you said that? Do you still feel that way?

[Pam Grier]

We rehearsed every. If you want to work with him, you have to rehearse at least A couple of weeks. Everyone does. And a lot of people don't get to work with him because that's what he demands. He wants to see everything about you so he can be the maestro. Like a little this, a little this, a little louder, shrill, you know, bottom, you know. And so he. He talked to me incessantly about my life. All the things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Your own personal life.

[Pam Grier]

Personal life, right. And he had. Didn't know all of the cliffs that I had walked upon and stopped and some maybe fell off. And he wanted to know how far he could take me in certain scenes emotionally. And so the scene with Robert Forster is the scene. The first take is when I talk to him about aging, being an older woman. My husband left me. I was a fall person, and I have nothing left. This is the second time I'm in this hole. I have nowhere to go. I'm making 16,000 a year with benefits. This is it. And I can't go to jail. And then in the scene with Robert, the next day when Robert comes over, you know, to get his gun, I said, no, you can keep it. And we start sitting down, having that intimate conversation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I love that scene. Yeah.

[Pam Grier]

And I'm really. This is it. No one in jail. No one's listening to me. This is it. And I. And he's a Bill bondsman, so he can tell whether you're lying or not. He can tell something. And I just think, this is my last chance. And when I gave the first reading, the first line reading of it, the tears welled up in the bottom of my. And it started. Not me. You know, just. You know how you're just still. And the tears started coming out, and the crew, when they said, you know, cut. The crew was crying. They applauded.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Ugh. Well, when you get the crew going, you know that you have nailed it. No question.

[Pam Grier]

All men.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. One take.

[Pam Grier]

The first one.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Then he said, can you do it again?

[Pam Grier]

But don't cry. Don't let the tears. I don't have control. But they thought it was great, and so did I. But I wanted him to have what he felt would be right for him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And also, you know, it's funny because I'm remembering. Wasn't it your mom who was talking about crying? And I think that's what you said.

[Pam Grier]

And doctors don't want you to cry. As a nurse, you can't cry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Pam Grier]

They don't want to see a nurse cry. They don't want. You know, there's certain things, and I don't know if it's a male doctor.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. But that's an interesting thing to consider. It's like, why not? I'm experiencing this maybe in a different way than you are. And that's okay, isn't it?

[Pam Grier]

Yeah. So we just did another one for him. And I didn't. The tears didn't, you know, go down. But when the men felt my confusion and pain and exhaustion, and it's like, you know, I have cried over roadkill, you know, just like seeing a horse being hit or something. And.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you experience life differently. Yeah. But I'll tell you something, you know, it's interesting too, as you're talking about this, because of course, the last scene in the movie is you driving and you're crying, by the way.

[Pam Grier]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And that is superb relief.

[Pam Grier]

Was it? I did it. I did it. I did it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Because nothing was said. Nothing was said between you and Robert Forster. Incredible.

[Pam Grier]

I do a movie, great movie every 25 years, and that's fine with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And we're all the better for your great movies. Okay, so, Pam, I'm gonna end with a couple of quick rapid fire questions. Is there something that you would go back and tell yourself at 21?

[Pam Grier]

Oh, I was a real student. I was too serious when I went to the UCLA campus and the film students were loading a van, and I walked over to them and asked them what they were doing. They had cables, you know, and everything. And I'm like, what are they doing? And I had a fro. And I said, so, you know, and they said, oh, we're film students. We're about to make our short and stuff. And I said, yeah, I'm trying to get into film school here as well. And they went, why don't you join us? Come forward. I said, yeah, I don't know if I'll get it. You know, I'm poor. I got to work. I got to figure it out. And they were so nice. No, come on, meet us in Hollywood on the street. And we're going to, like, guerrilla filmmakers, you know? And so it was the first introduction to being crew. Not a female or male, but your crew.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sounds like the advice that you're giving yourself now. You took back in the day. I mean, you were serious, but then you were able to sort of.

[Pam Grier]

I was gonna quit that. I was that serious because I needed to either be a doctor, a nurse, anesthesiologist, something that would pay. Yeah, this is not tangible, this movie career thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Understood. It didn't feel like it was gonna pay up.

[Pam Grier]

It's not. And there's no black women around and not a lot of women around, period.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally. Is there something that you want people to know about aging, Pam, that they don't know?

[Pam Grier]

I think with aging people, it depends on. Because everyone is so not. They're not monolithic women people, of course, they come from religion that expect you to age. There are certain cultures that expect you to age, to expect you. There's expectations in your background, in your culture. And it depends on who you are as an individual, how. How you feel, what you've conquered. And it's individual. No one can help you get well. You can have all the surgery and chemo, take out organs, you lose your breasts. You could do all that and still. Still feel not whole. So how do you feel whole? How do you feel? Fill up that emotional well, so that you're not impoverished, emotional, and you give up and your algorithm is negative.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How do you do it? What's the answer?

[Pam Grier]

If I wake up breathing, I'm going to have a good day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think you're talking about gratitude, right?

[Pam Grier]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I have to tell you something about gratitude. I'm grateful to you. I'm grateful to have had this conversation with you. I admire you tremendously. Thank you so, so much for giving us all this time and all these great stories.

[Pam Grier]

Thank you. You're welcome.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, okay. That was a conversation I won't soon forget. I need to talk to my mother now. Let's get her on the zoom. Hi, Mommy.

[Pam Grier]

Hello.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How are you?

[Judith Bowles]

I'm good, I'm good. Good, good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Mom, I just talked to the actress extraordinary, Pam Grier. Oh, goodness. Incredible.

[Judith Bowles]

So what did she say?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, she said a lot, but one thing that I thought you would find particularly interesting was that, you know, she suffered a lot of trauma as a young girl, and she developed a stutter. And then she developed a relationship with a horse that was named Big Horse. And it was through her work with this horse that her stutter went away and she began to heal, which I thought is, like, amazing. It's like, you know, you hear about equine therapy, but this was really it. And I know that you had a relationship with. Can you tell the story of. Wasn't it your uncle who. And the horse and the saddle and all the rest of it?

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, it was sort of wonderful and sort of like a stutter in that. Well, it was very hard for me to talk to my father because I always felt like I had to be perfect to talk to him, sort of. So I used to rehearse, like, talking to him, which was A horrible thing. I mean, for a child.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait, how old were you?

[Judith Bowles]

I was in the third grade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And when you say you would rehearse talking to him, what does that mean? What does that look like? Exactly.

[Judith Bowles]

I would practice sentences, and there was sentence that I would say, say, how are you doing? And how was your day? So, I mean.

[Pam Grier]

And.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Judith Bowles]

But. But. And I. I would put it very carefully together. But then when I would see him, I would forget everything. And so. So. So it was very hard for me to address him just. Just naturally. But I had an uncle, my Uncle Herbie, and Uncle Herbie was very approachable. So I had gone with the Girl Scouts or with the Brownies. I had gone horseback riding, and for the first time in the third grade, and I loved it. So I wrote to my Uncle Herbie and I said to him, I want to. I want a pony, and can you help me get it? He wrote to my father and he said. And he sent a harness and he said, judy wants a pony. Here's a harness to go along with it. And so my father came at me and said, I understand you want a pony. And I said. I said, yeah. He said, well, here's the halter for it. And I. I remember I just thought I was going to faint from happiness. I just. Just thought it was like I put something in motion that worked. It was so wonderful. And so I got a pony, and her name was Betty and she was a Shetland pony. And she was just absolutely wonderful. I could. I could. I could ride her bareback. I. I could hop on her. She was not. She was teeny. Riding horses, being on horses, getting out in nature, getting away from the home, getting out was wonderful for me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What was it about a horse that sort of unlocked things for you?

[Judith Bowles]

Well, first of all, you're big, you're taller, and you could get out into everything and have a sort of sense of glory. I know that sounds funny, but it was sort of sense of glory, being up on a horse.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Mm. Yeah. I think Pam had the same experience and she liked being out in nature, too. She's actually a real cowgirl. The other thing that Pam Grier is, is that she's a musician and a singer, and she sang backup for Bobby Womack and for Sly and the Family Stone and, you know. Yeah. And she has. Yeah, she's a really good voice. Now, I don't think that you would say you have a good voice. Would you agree with that?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, no, no. I can't carry a tune. I literally cannot carry a tune. It's just too heavy for me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But isn't there some story that. Or did I make this up, that you were told to mouth the words to something? Were you in a. It is true.

[Judith Bowles]

In a choir. At my church. Everybody in my high school was in the choir. And I warned to be in the choir. And Mr. Riley, who was my friend Sue Riley's father, he was the choir master. So I came to the choir and I. You had to sing a little bit by yourself. And so he said, just move your lips as if you're singing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It was nice of him to include you.

[Judith Bowles]

I know, but he let me be there, so. And it was fine with me. So I just, I got very good at, you know, just, I guess.

[Pam Grier]

Is that what karaoke is?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Judith Bowles]

Do you actually sing with karaoke?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. Karaoke is when they play the music and then the words come up on a screen and then you. You can read the lyrics and sing along to the music and then you do it on a microphone. So that was sort of. It's kind of the. It's the inverse of karaoke. You're. You were just, you were like. I don't know. You were like. You were doing anti karaoke is what you were doing. I guess when you.

[Judith Bowles]

We used to do this all the time. We'd get records and we'd lip syncing, lip syncing as if we were singing it. I loved doing that. I can make it look so real.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really. I'm going to put that to the test when I see you next.

[Pam Grier]

Oh, gosh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All right, Mom. Well, I love talking to you and I'll talk to you again soon and I hope you have a great day.

[Judith Bowles]

You too, lovey.

[Pam Grier]

Love you.

[Judith Bowles]

Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode ad free. Plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonuses. Interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. We're also on substack at wiser than me.substack.com wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.