Julia Gets Wise with Rita Moreno

Summary

Wiser Than Me™ – Season 3, Episode: "Julia Gets Wise with Rita Moreno"

Release Date: December 11, 2024

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Introduction

In the Season 3 premiere of Wiser Than Me™, Julia Louis-Dreyfus reunites with listeners to engage in a heartfelt and candid conversation with the legendary Rita Moreno. This episode delves deep into Rita’s illustrious career, personal life, and the wisdom she has garnered over her remarkable seventy-year journey in the entertainment industry and beyond.

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Guest Introduction: Rita Moreno

Julia opens the episode by highlighting Rita Moreno's groundbreaking achievements. Rita Moreno, a trailblazing Latina actress, has been a significant figure in Hollywood, breaking barriers as the first Latina to win an Emmy and earning accolades across the Grammy, Oscar, and Tony awards. Julia reminisces about Rita’s iconic performances, particularly her role as Anita in West Side Story, and underscores Rita’s enduring charisma and dedication to portraying Latinas with dignity and depth.

Notable Quote:

• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [00:55]: "Rita Moreno wasn't just a star, she was their star. La Nuestra."

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A Birthday Celebration and Rita’s Reflections

The conversation begins on a celebratory note as Rita Moreno shares that she is celebrating her 93rd birthday. Julia and Rita exchange warm birthday wishes, setting a joyful tone for their discussion.

Notable Quotes:

• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [08:28]: "I want more money. I mean, if I'm that terrific, I really need to be paid for this."
• Rita Moreno [09:07]: "I am a jolly, energetic, joyous, emotional. I cry at the drop of a hat. Puerto Rican is what I am. That's what I am."

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Personal Life and Family

Rita recounts a recent two-week vacation with her daughter, emphasizing the importance of shared experiences over material gifts. She describes their journey through New England, enjoying the vibrant fall foliage and Broadway musicals, highlighting the deep bond she shares with her daughter.

Notable Quotes:

• Rita Moreno [10:41]: "It turned out to be such a success, we put on only Broadway musicals and sang the songs at the top of our lungs."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [13:21]: "I want to completely shift gears here, because there’s one aspect of your life that we haven’t touched on..."

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Health, Aging, and Staying Active

Rita humorously discusses the physical toll her extensive dancing career has taken on her knees, leading her to limit activities that strain them. Despite these challenges, she remains sharp and active, acknowledging the importance of staying engaged and connected.

Notable Quotes:

• Rita Moreno [13:53]: "I don't work out at all."
• Rita Moreno [14:10]: "In order to come down steps, you have to go up steps backstage, right?... That almost killed me."

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Career Highlights and Civil Rights Involvement

The discussion shifts to Rita’s illustrious career and her involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. She shares a poignant memory from the March on Washington, where she was seated next to Sammy Davis Jr. and witnessed Martin Luther King Jr. deliver an unsolicited version of his iconic "I Have a Dream" speech, thanks to intervention from gospel singer Mahalia Jackson.

Notable Quotes:

• Rita Moreno [27:07]: "Martin Luther King gets up to speak... But Mahalia reaches for the back of his jacket because he started another speech that she was not expecting."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [32:08]: "Given that, what did you learn about bravery during that period of time?"

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Auditioning for Anita in West Side Story

Rita shares her experience auditioning for the role of Anita in West Side Story, detailing the emotional struggle she faced with the original lyrics. Her determination to portray a dignified and self-assured Latina character overcame her initial reservations about certain lines in the script.

Notable Quotes:

• Rita Moreno [35:18]: "I have to just call my agent and say, I can't do this. But I want the part."
• Rita Moreno [39:03]: "I was then that Sondheim would write a lyric like that."

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Facing Sexual Harassment in Hollywood

A significant portion of the conversation addresses Rita’s harrowing experience with sexual harassment at a Hollywood cocktail party. She recounts how the host, Harry Cohen, made inappropriate advances, leaving her speechless and giggling out of shock—a common response among women who were uncertain how to react in such situations.

Notable Quotes:

• Rita Moreno [40:24]: "The very first thing that came out of his mouth... I'd like to fuck you."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [40:52]: "Somebody said something like that to me back in the 80s in Hollywood, and I did the same thing. I giggled."
• Rita Moreno [41:28]: "Absolutely. Absolutely."

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Marriage, Loss, and Finding Community

Rita opens up about her 45-year marriage to Leonard, sharing the complex emotions following his passing. She discusses the unexpected sense of relief she felt and the challenges of navigating loneliness. Through personal introspection and therapy, Rita discovers the importance of actively seeking friendships and building a community, illustrating resilience and the pursuit of joy even in the face of loss.

Notable Quotes:

• Rita Moreno [50:07]: "I started a new life. Brand new life."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [53:56]: "So you don't have a partner now, right? And so can you talk about finding community?"

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Cognitive Challenges and Aging Gracefully

Rita candidly discusses her struggles with memory, particularly with recalling names and nouns, attributing it to the natural aging process. She humorously shares anecdotes about forgetting movie titles and names, portraying a relatable and human side of aging.

Notable Quotes:

• Rita Moreno [57:47]: "That's why I had to ask you about that movie."
• Rita Moreno [58:00]: "So, yes, it's annoying."

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Advice and Wisdom for Listeners

Towards the end of the episode, Rita offers invaluable advice to younger generations. She emphasizes the importance of self-worth and the courage to stand up against mistreatment. Her reflections on bravery, self-love, and the significance of addressing inner struggles resonate deeply, providing listeners with actionable insights and inspiration.

Notable Quotes:

• Rita Moreno [64:20]: "You have value. No matter what you think, you are special and you have value."
• Rita Moreno [59:43]: "Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't."

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Final Reflections and Birthday Wishes

As the episode concludes, Julia brings her mother, Judith Bowles, into the conversation, who shares fond memories of witnessing Rita Moreno’s performances on Broadway. This heartfelt interaction underscores the multi-generational impact of Rita’s work and legacy.

Notable Quotes:

• Judith Bowles [70:45]: "It was just one of those... you just knew that you were going to have a glorious time."
• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [73:29]: "Isn't that a very powerful work of art?"

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Conclusion

This episode of Wiser Than Me™ masterfully intertwines Rita Moreno’s personal anecdotes with broader discussions on aging, resilience, and empowerment. Through transparent and poignant dialogue, Rita imparts profound wisdom, making this episode a treasure trove of insights for listeners seeking inspiration and guidance from one of Hollywood’s most esteemed icons.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [00:55]: "Rita Moreno wasn't just a star, she was their star. La Nuestra."
• Rita Moreno [09:07]: "I am a jolly, energetic, joyous, emotional. I cry at the drop of a hat. Puerto Rican is what I am. That's what I am."
• Rita Moreno [27:07]: "Martin Luther King gets up to speak... But Mahalia reaches for the back of his jacket because he started another speech that she was not expecting."
• Rita Moreno [35:18]: "I have to just call my agent and say, I can't do this. But I want the part."
• Rita Moreno [40:24]: "The very first thing that came out of his mouth... I'd like to fuck you."
• Rita Moreno [50:07]: "I started a new life. Brand new life."
• Rita Moreno [64:20]: "You have value. No matter what you think, you are special and you have value."

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Key Themes:

• Resilience and Overcoming Adversity: Rita’s ability to navigate personal and professional challenges showcases her unwavering strength.
• Empowerment and Self-Worth: Emphasizing the importance of recognizing one’s own value and standing up against mistreatment.
• Aging Gracefully: Discussing the realities of aging while maintaining vitality and joy.
• Legacy and Influence: Highlighting Rita’s impact on the Latin community and her role in advancing representation in Hollywood.

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Final Thoughts

Wiser Than Me™ continues to celebrate the wisdom and experiences of remarkable women. In this episode, Rita Moreno’s stories are not just nostalgic recollections but lessons in courage, self-discovery, and the enduring pursuit of happiness. Whether you're a long-time listener or new to the podcast, this episode offers a profound and enriching experience that underscores the essence of what it means to be "wiser than me."

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, listeners, it's me, Julia. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We've got so much more wisdom to share from the legendary old ladies featured this season. You know, so many of our guests have written memoirs reflecting on their experiences. And by putting it all into writing, they've uncovered a better understanding of what truly matters. Jane Fonda calls it a life review and wisely says, to know where you want to go, you. You first have to understand where you've been. So brilliant. Right? That's why we've created a special Wiser Than Me notebook so you can kickstart your own life review and write down some of the nuggets of wisdom these women share in each new episode. We just added these groovy hardcover notebooks to our merch shop. To buy yours, head over to wiserthanmeshop.com today.

[Rita Moreno]

Lemonade.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Just a quick note before we begin. This episode contains discussion of sexual assault, and there is a brief conversation about suicide. If you or someone you know is in emotional distress or contemplating suicide, you can call or text 988 to access a trained crisis counselor. Okay, so we got invited to a fancy friend's fancy apartment in New York for dinner. The kind of thing I'm usually actually quite good at getting out of gracefully. But in this case, it actually did sound like a nice group. And I hadn't been around humans for a bit, you know, because I've been working and whatever. And so off we went. And I got seated next to a gentleman whom I have met before and I've never really cotton to, but what the heck? I mean, how bad can it be? Bad. Okay, so first of all, he starts to butt into conversations from all around the table. The mansplaining gets going pretty fucking quickly, and we learn that apparently he's an expert in everything and most of all in making a lot of money. Which is just so thrilling to hear about again from another Ivy League educated white guy who wouldn't know his own privilege if it ran him over, which it did several times. But did it stop him from bloviating? Oh, no. No, it did not. And like I said, you know what? These were fancy friends and they have a little balcony thing. So we're sitting outside and it was a lovely early fall evening. And as this guy is pontificating about his latest trip to Dubai and the rising value of something or other, and I'm just praying that dessert is coming so I can get the hell out of there, I started to notice this really weird smell right I mean, it's like this awful smell, and it's very close by, and I'm trying to identify it, and then it hits me. Oh, my God, it's dog shit. This motherfucker is not just completely full of shit. He has stepped in shit. Okay, Dog shit. What a tremendous justice this was. But it was an awful stench. So dessert comes, and I hurry through it, and I make an excuse, and we hightail it out of there. And that dog crap smell follows us into the elevator where I'm telling my husband about how awful this guy was. And then the smell is with me straight out into the street, and it's still lingering as I'm, you know, dotting the I's and crossing the T's of my description of this. Let's just say it's asshole. And it's not until we are literally stepping into the cab that I realize the dog shit is on my shoe. Yeah. Here endeth the lesson. Judge not that you yourself be not judged and all of that, but my big takeaway was that when you step in dog crap, you really have to just throw away the shoes. And my other big takeaway is how much I enjoy talking here to the wonderful wise women on this show. I mean, it's so refreshing and revitalizing for me, and I hope, dear listener, for you, too. So thank God. Thank God, then, that today we get to talk to someone who is not full of shit, but is full of wit and grace and talent and wisdom. The incomparable Rita Moreno. I'm Julia Louis Dreyfuss, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Some actors have a kind of motor, an energy in their performances from role to role that is kind of supernatural. You know what I'm talking about? It's like an inner light that they bring to all their characters. They seem somehow to be totally alive, powerful, and impossibly vibrant. Our guest today is an actor like that. The first time I saw her, she was singing and dancing across the screen as Anita in West side Story, a movie that came out the year I was born. The film was shot in English with heavy accents, and she was totally captivating to me, from the bitter comedy of her killer dance number America to the unforgettably gorgeous harmony of I have A Love. Oh, God, I can't even think about it. It's so good. Knockout stuff. And, of course, she won an Oscar for it. And if it was compelling to me when I saw it on TV in reruns in the 70s. Imagine what it meant to Latin families across this country and its territories as they watched her in a Spanish dubbed version. For them, Rita Moreno wasn't just a star, she was their star. La Nuestra. Her extraordinary career on stage in the movies and on TV spans seven decades. She was the first Latina to win an Emmy. She has two, actually. A Grammy, an Oscar and a Tony. The famous egotistical. At a time when Latin people were especially marginalized in Hollywood, Rita fought and continues to fight for roles that portray Latinas with dignity and depth. To put this into perspective, despite being the largest minority group in the US Latinos still remain underrepresented in the media. Let that sink in for a second. If it's bad now, can you imagine the shitshow it must have been like back then? She has channeled that strength into becoming a trailblazer beyond showbiz, too. She marched for Civil Rights alongside Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Advocated for her friend Norman Lear's People for the American Way, a progressive advocacy organization, and has consistently worked to empower Puerto Ricans, urging them to vote and hold elected officials accountable. And that energy that I was talking about before, it's still there. The woman is a dynamo when she performs now. Amazing. Whether you know her from the Ritz, Broadway or West side Story, the Electric company. Hey, you guys 80? For Brady or her scene stealing role in One Day at a Time, Rita has managed to keep the same irrepressible charisma she's had since starting Spanish dance lessons in the Bronx at the age of six. There's even, by the way, a tribute Barbie doll of her in her Oscar dress. I am so thrilled to welcome a real star, a mother, a grandmother of two, a true force of nature, and someone who is miles and miles and miles wiser than me, the wonderful Rita Moreno. Welcome, Rita.

[Rita Moreno]

Wow. I want more money. I mean, if I'm that terrific, I really need to be paid for this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, you really do. That is such a good response to an intro. I want more money. Oh, Rita. Okay. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age? Rita?

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, for sure. Today's my birthday.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Get the hell out.

[Rita Moreno]

December 11th. I am today officially 93.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Happy birthday to you Happy birthday to you Happy birthday, dear Rita Happy birthday.

[Rita Moreno]

To you Man, Julia, that's the best. The best.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Let me ask you something about being 93. How old do you feel?

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, hell, I don't know. I don't go by numbers, so I don't know. I feel like me and I'm Let me just put it this way. I am a jolly, energetic, joyous, emotional. I cry at the drop of a hat. Puerto Rican is what I am. That's what I am. So I don't know what it feels like to be me. This is what I am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what do you think is the best part about being your age here at 93 years old? God, that's cool.

[Rita Moreno]

I am so fucking smart.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, this is the vibe I'm getting from you. Smart.

[Rita Moreno]

I'm smart, but I'm. A lot of things that I have come to admire, I guess is the. Is the word. I have come to like myself more than I ever used to in the old, bad old days when being a porter. See, I always thought of myself as a Puerto Rican. And that was maybe one of the greatest mistakes I ever made. So that stuff is gone and done. I am just so fucking happy to be here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I heard you went on a two week vacation with your daughter. Yeah, is that correct? And what was that like? Do you travel with your daughter a lot and talk about sort of when you go on vacation with your daughter, are you planning it? Are you relaxing? Are you. What. What is it all about?

[Rita Moreno]

It started this way. I was trying to think of a great birthday present about four years ago for her. And then I thought of something that we both absolutely adore. We're still Easterners in many ways. And even though I was born in Puerto Rico, but I was raised New York City. And I said to her, how does this strike you? We go to Boston, rent a car and drive through all the New England states that we can and watch the leaves turn, which is my idea of pure heaven. I've always loved that. She's always loved that. And she said, really? I said, why not?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Why not?

[Rita Moreno]

That's a present. And she said, oh my God, that's incredible. So I put her in charge, because she's the organized one in charge of finding someone who would book us in little hotels, sometimes motels, and help us devise a map where we would get the most fun and the most eyeballing that we could. It turned out to be such a success, we put on only Broadway musicals and sang the songs at the top of our lungs. Yes, we visited all the. Oh God, I love New England.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Isn't it divine? It really is marvelous. It's really marvelous.

[Rita Moreno]

And the leaves are just outrageous. They're so gorgeous.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And they smell so good too.

[Rita Moreno]

That. And we also had lots of lobster rolls. You know, all this stuff you can't really get here. In California.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

And we ate at fabulous places. We ate at little places. Lots of crunching through leaves that had fallen. Oh. Oh. I'm telling you, I could do this for the rest of my life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, how lovely.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's such a great present for both of you. And then you get to be together and really connect.

[Rita Moreno]

You know, we're very close.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, I can tell.

[Rita Moreno]

I mean, despite my being an impossible person and she being an impossible daughter, what can I say? We're both a pain in the ass in our own special ways.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, but you're a pain in the ass together, right? You're two pain in the.

[Rita Moreno]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

So it's a great relationship.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's so lucky. That's so beautiful. I love the idea. I've actually given my boys, I have two sons and I've given them both frequently. I've given them like experiences as gifts as opposed to more crap to have around the house, you know?

[Rita Moreno]

What do you mean by experiences? Experiences?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean tickets to shows, to tickets to games. They're both really into sports, so I get them tickets to go see the Lakers or the. Whatever it happens to be baseball, Go see the Dodgers, stuff like that. They love that kind of thing. But now I'm thinking I'm going to give them trips. With me?

[Rita Moreno]

Absolutely.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I'm going to do it.

[Rita Moreno]

Absolutely.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you're obviously very fit. You work out all the time. What's your deal with that?

[Rita Moreno]

I don't work out at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Get out of here. No way. Rita.

[Rita Moreno]

Well, my knees are shot to pieces from all that dancing. I mean, west side Story. No, the thing that really killed my knees was playing Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Rita Moreno]

And you know how she makes these incredible entrances down the steps?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

Well, in order to come down steps, you have to go up steps backstage, right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh. Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

And that almost killed me. That, that really ruined my knees. It's ruined many knees. Many, many knees. So I don't do things that call for knee work, and that's almost everything. So I walk, I walk the dog and I can't bend them very much. In fact, when and if I am asked to accept a wonderful award, which happens more now that I'm, you know, older, and they're saying, quick, before she gets kicks the bucket, let's give her this award. Let's not be. Let's not be found wanting. So, I mean, they think I don't know these things anyway. I always have to say, am I going to go up steps to the stage to accept this award? Because if so, then I really need some help.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I was there when you accepted recently at the Academy Museum and they gave you an award.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, were you there?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I was there and I heard your speech, which I want to talk about, but the. I don't remember you getting help going up the stairs.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, it's like 40 men came over.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, this is bullshit.

[Rita Moreno]

No, I really. My knees hurt terribly when I go up steps. So my grandson Justin was the. And I told him, I said, if there's steps, please come help me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But you still walk. I mean, you're obviously. Yes. Okay, so then. And what about. If you don't mind, I'm curious to know, do you have, like a. Do you have a food thing? Do you watch what you eat? Are you explain what your food situation is?

[Rita Moreno]

I try not to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You try not to eat?

[Rita Moreno]

No, I try not to watch what I eat. Oh, my God, you're so funny. But, no, I eat pretty much what I like. Yes, I am pre. What my doctor calls pre diabetic.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay?

[Rita Moreno]

So I do have to be careful about sweets and stuff like that, but I've been that for, you know, years, and I'm still good, good. So.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So to hell with it.

[Rita Moreno]

I'm just a lucky little bitch.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you are. You really are.

[Rita Moreno]

I am. I am. I was just born with fantastic genes. I have really good skin for someone who's, you know, 93 today.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. And then I read you used to sit out in the sun and. And become like a piece of bacon. What the hell? You haven't had skin. You haven't had skin cancer issues or anything from that.

[Rita Moreno]

Never, never, never. Isn't that amazing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. You're so lucky.

[Rita Moreno]

My mom did. She did, you know, she had little skin cancer things. But I've never. I've never had a problem with my skin. Doesn't mean I don't have wrinkles. You just can't see them here. Yeah, but no, that's even better because I'm out of focus.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, out of focus is always good.

[Rita Moreno]

Whereas my mom would say, you are out of focus. My mother said the most wonderful things, the best thing she ever said. And I can't always tell this story, but I know I can with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me.

[Rita Moreno]

My brother was graduating from high school and she gave him a little party and she had about, I don't know, about 10 people, grownups. And she was so proud of him that he was graduating from, as she called it, junior high, Union High. And she said, everybody, I want to say something. And she said, I am so proud. I just want to tell you that he is graduating today from Leconte Junior High. Can you imagine the expressions on faces? I mean, there were people who. I mean, there were eyes that went.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Like this big, big eyes.

[Rita Moreno]

And I remember I ran to her and I said, mommy, for God's sake.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But she didn't know. She didn't know.

[Rita Moreno]

Of course not. But it was also very, very annoying, too, sometimes. And I said, A, E, I, O, U. Can't you say that? Can't you say. She said, no. And you know very well why. I got trouble with my bowels, so leave me alone. She was funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So speaking of your mom, when you left Puerto Rico, you had a very tight family community back in Puerto Rico. And you came to the United States with your mom when you were five or five, I believe. Yeah. And it was just the two of you in New York, how did you. In those early days, how did the two of you navigate together? You were a team. Correct.

[Rita Moreno]

Actually, if she were alive, you should ask her, because I'll never understand how she did it. She had two or three jobs at once.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

My mother was a wonderful seamstress. She had jobs. Sewing. She would leave me with, you know, a friend, and she would go down to the. To the district where they do all the sewing and that kind of stuff.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The garment district.

[Rita Moreno]

Thank you. That's the one thing that's happened since I became this age. I forget nouns.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's fine. I'm here for you. I'm here for you.

[Rita Moreno]

Okay. Anyway, she did that. She took me to shows. She took me to dancing class. I used to dance for Grandpa in Puerto Rico. And that's how it all started. Because I used to dance to records. And he loved it. He'd clap in time and he'd laugh and he'd smile. And I remember thinking, this is nice. Yeah, I like this. I like this a lot.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

And that hasn't changed. I love the attention.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

I mean, everybody. Every actor. Not every, but many actors who say they don't are full of shit. They like the attention.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They do. They do like the attention.

[Rita Moreno]

Or let's put it this way. They need the attention.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. That's the way to say it.

[Rita Moreno]

I need it. I'm an attention person. I love it when people say, I love you. That's swell. It's not as though I'm fighting and battling all these fans. I don't have that kind of career or life, so it's cool. And I just moved from a big house to a condo in a lovely little town near San Francisco. And I always know when they recognize me now that it's a small town, because I get this a lot.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Rita's smiling and waving at me, right? Just so our listeners know, right?

[Rita Moreno]

And sometimes there's a question in their face and I say, yes, I am.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's time for a break. There's much more with Rita Moreno when we return. Certainly you've taken a lot of pictures with your kids and family this year. Holidays, first day of school, vacations, and all those little moments in between. Here's the thing. Even with all those great shots, sharing them with the whole family can be a hassle. It can feel like a lot to manage. Fortunately, there's an easy way to share all those memories without flooding their inboxes. Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter, Aura Frames are incredibly smart and easy to use, allowing you to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame. Plus, you can order the frame online and preload it with photos and videos using the Aura app so it's ready to go right out of the box. Let's be honest, what most people really want for the holidays is to see their favorite people more often. That's why this year the best gift you can get give besides plane tickets is an Aura Digital Picture Frame. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling carver Matte frames by using promo code Wiser at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code wiser. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. I know we're all so excited to find the perfect gifts for the people we love. There's nothing like seeing your adult child light up because you finally nailed it and surprised them with exactly what they wanted. Macy's Friends and Family Sale is here to help make that magic happen. From December 4th through December 12th, take an extra 30% off top gifts and 15% off the best beauty brands. They've got something for everyone. Ugg boots, Advent calendars, Nest candles, Crocs. Crocs. Who knew those were going to be such a big they also have these incredible dry bar travel kits, skin gym LED masks and stocking stuffers galore. With the holidays right around the corner, now is the time to dig into your holiday shopping and find those perfect gifts for your loved ones. And for a great price too. All at the Macy's Friends and Family Sale. Don't miss out on Macy's biggest offer of the season. Save big and enjoy free shipping on orders over $25. Whether you're shopping for loved ones or treating yourself, now's the time to snag those perfect holiday find. With deals this good, why wait? Visit Macy's.com and make this holiday season the easiest and most stylish one yet. The holiday season often comes with planning, gift buying, traveling, and spending quality time with family and friends. Why not add Learning a New Language with Rosetta Stone to your checklist, too? Rosetta Stone is available on your desktop or on the go in the app. It makes it so easy to fit into any busy schedule. You can sneak in a quick lesson on the train, during your commute, in between meetings or on walk. With no English translations, you feel truly immersed and ready to learn to speak, listen and think in the language you're learning. They offer 25 different languages such as Spanish, Korean, Dutch, Arabic and Polish, just to name a few. Rosetta Stone has been the most trusted learning language program for over 30 years, with millions of users. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. For a short time, Wiser Than Me listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership HOL. This offer will not last long. Visit rosettastone.com wiser that's unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your Holiday [e-mail] Wiser today for yourself, or as a gift that keeps giving. Rita, I read your memoir and I have to say, it's a page turner. It's really well written. Your life is just fascinating and you're able to relay that beautifully in the written word.

[Rita Moreno]

That reminds me of something, and I have to say it when I can think of it because otherwise I'll forget. Go I did my I do a talk and it's about myself, okay. And it's not on paper. It's somebody having a conversation with me. So it's called A Conversation with Rita Moreno. And I never know what they're going to ask, okay? Because I usually don't know the person who's going to do this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I see.

[Rita Moreno]

But they know me and they know my career, etc. Etc.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

And I did it recently somewhere, and somebody said to me afterward, my God, you are. What's the movie that Tom Hanks did where he played that wonderful character? Life is like a box.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Forrest Gump.

[Rita Moreno]

Somebody said you're Forrest Gump because you've done everything. You've been. Washington, D.C. the walk on Washington.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

Marlon Brando was your lover.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

You dated Elvis Presley. And I talk about all of that stuff. And sometimes it's hilarious, sometimes it's heartbreaking, because being in this business, being this age, particularly now, is difficult. You don't get the jobs that you used to. But when he said, forrest Gump, I said, you know, I think you're right. Yeah, I've done it all. Almost.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I've done it all.

[Rita Moreno]

Do you know my wonderful story about Martin Luther King?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, this is the story I want you to tell. Please. Because it. You know, I was lucky to be at the Academy Museum when you were getting the honors. That's right.

[Rita Moreno]

Because I brought it up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know, but our listeners don't know it. So you need to explain. Set the stage. You were involved in the Civil Rights movement. You were there at the March on Washington, and you were right there next to Dr. King.

[Rita Moreno]

Correct. I was 10ft away on a chair, sitting next to Sammy Davis Jr. And Martin Luther King gets up to speak.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

And he starts a speech that was not the one we know at the March on Washington. And at that point, his very dear friend. Who was that gospel singer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, God.

[Rita Moreno]

She was his good friend.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Was it Mahalia?

[Rita Moreno]

Mahalia.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Mahalia Jackson.

[Rita Moreno]

Mahalia. She was there with him. And she reaches for the back of his jacket because he started another speech that she was not expecting. I saw this and I heard this. She says, martin, tell him about the dream. Martin, she's tugging on his jacket. And he literally stopped and started again. It didn't seem that way. You know, who knew?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, who knew? Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

And he starts saying, I had a dream speech. And the proof of that. Because a lot of people didn't believe me, because I'm one of very few people who knows this story. Nancy Pelosi knows this story. And what happened was that she apparently had heard him do this speech in one of the churches of a Sunday.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

And when she saw he wasn't going to do that one, she thought, no, no, no, no. He's got to tell them about the dream.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

He's got to. I mean, just. This gives me such huge goosebumps.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Me, too.

[Rita Moreno]

It makes me teary. Too teary. And he. And there's proof that he was not going to do that speech. Because you can look it up in the archives. If you look up the speech, it does not have I had a Dream in it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No shit.

[Rita Moreno]

No shit. Is that a story?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That is a story. Can you talk about that. And at that point, you hadn't heard him give that speech. Can you talk about your personal Rita experience hearing that speech in that moment of time? Can you bring us back to how you felt hearing it?

[Rita Moreno]

I'll tell you what. He was a great pastor because he was also an actor.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Rita Moreno]

That's what made him. But that's what made him so spectacular.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

And I remember when his voice starts to tremble, I had a dream, and people saying, yeah, they're going crazy before he even goes on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

Everybody's yelling, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

And, I mean, my hair was just standing straight up. Sammy Davis was fit to be tied. He was just crazed with emotion. Everybody was crazy. And every damn time that man said something like that or let his voice tremble because, God, he knew when to do that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

See, that's. That's acting, too.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. He could read the room, as it were.

[Rita Moreno]

You're sincere about what you're saying.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

But it also calls for drama and a sense of drama.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

And I realized how fortunate I was to have been asked to attend.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

It was Harry Belafonte who wanted some Hollywood people there, because I'm assuming he wanted Martin to know that there were people in Hollywood who were sincere, and that's why he invited a group of us. Joseph Mankiewicz was there. James Garner. Now, Jimmy Garner was a friend of mine because I had done a bunch of his TV shows as a guest star.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

And Jimmy in the airplane was guzzling Pepto Bismol because he had. He had an ulcer and he was scared to death that he would never work again. James Garner.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Rita Moreno]

So you can imagine how I felt.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Rita Moreno]

I mean, I didn't have that kind of name in a million years, and I was terrified.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You were terrified because you'd never work again. Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

I mean, come on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

With good reason. You thought this.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And for the listeners, The Hollywood blacklist was a period of time, largely in the late 40s through the 50s, where the government persecuted people they suspected of being communist sympathizers. So given that, what did you learn about bravery during that period of time?

[Rita Moreno]

I learned that it was the only way to function. And I think I was immensely brave for this reason. How afraid you are determines how brave you are, as far as I'm concerned.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Rita Moreno]

So sometimes people do things that I know are brave but nobody else knows. And I think that person is really courageous. So how frightened you are, like I was that I would never work again or that people, you know, the press would take advantage of this Puerto Rican let's not forget that. That takes courage. I didn't think of it that way then. I just knew that I had an obligation and a responsibility. And that's why I was there. That's why Harry invited me to be one of the people. Because at that point, just before then, I'd been doing a lot of political stuff. I had just started to get. I had a friend, a girlfriend, roommate, Phyllis, who was very political. In fact, I believe she was a communist once. No longer. But she became my mentor and my teacher. She politicized me and we met in group therapy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, interesting.

[Rita Moreno]

And became roommates, as a matter of fact. I was crazy about her. And she found me. She loved, dearly, loved me because she knew that I had gumption. I didn't see myself that way at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She saw it in you before you saw it in yourself.

[Rita Moreno]

She saw it way before I ever saw it in me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love that, what you say about bravery, I really do. I just think it's.

[Rita Moreno]

It's really determined by how frightened you are. Don't tell me that people who do risky things aren't worried that somehow it may, you know, come back and slap it in the face. Yeah, I think. I think people know that it takes a certain amount. They may not call it that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Rita Moreno]

I call it courage.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. It is courage. You know, you've mentioned actually that Anita became a role model for you, which I think that's interesting because I've never thought about, like a character that I played as being a role. Well, of course, I've played a bunch of fuck ups, but in my career. But what was it about the character of Anita that you admired?

[Rita Moreno]

Well, it was the first Hispanic role that I had been offered who loved herself. She had a sense of dignity. I've never played a Hispanic character. Excuse me. Who had those qualities. This was the very first time that I played a Hispanic character who wasn't talking like this all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, who stood proud, who owned it proudly.

[Rita Moreno]

All of them did. And she was proud of herself and she wasn't gonna take any shit from anybody. And I. I was astounded that I was offered the part. I was astounded because I thought, I'm so. Not that. Let me tell you an interesting story, please. Speaking of Anita.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

When I finally got the part, because I tested and tested and tested.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, did Chita Rivera also try out for it or how did that work?

[Rita Moreno]

She was never, never offered. No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow. By the way, just so our listeners know that Cheetah played Anita on Broadway.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, she was the original Anita.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But anyway, I'm interrupting you. You go ahead, talk about that. You were auditioning for. You were auditioning for the role.

[Rita Moreno]

I got the part after testing a lot. They tested everybody in Hollywood with brown hair and brown eyes. So I got the part finally, and I was beyond thrilled. I was. It was a great part. Just a great part.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Great part. And the music is so gorgeous.

[Rita Moreno]

Please. Yes, yes. The first thing I did when I heard that I got the part, I ran to the music store and bought the music, the whole manuscript, so that I could be ahead of the game and I would know America and all. A boy like that, that kind of thing. So that I would know the songs backwards, you know, that there would be no problem with that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

So I brought it home, and the first thing I did was turn the page to America. And here is what I read and sang to that manuscript. Puerto Rico, you ugly island, island of tropic diseases. You know, even just saying it now in that context gives me the chills and makes my stomach royal. Because when I saw that, I didn't realize that that was the verse in the Broadway play. And I remember thinking, I can't do this. I can't do this. And then this went on for days and days and days. And I kept thinking, I'm going to have to just, you know, call my agent and say, I can't do this. And then I would say, but I want the part. I want this so badly I can taste it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

And then I would say to myself, no, no, no, you can't. You can't do it. You will never, ever live that down. I was probably right. And I would say, all right, I'll call my agent, and it'll be hideous because he will scream at me. We worked so hard to get that fucking part.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

I mean, I tested and tested and all kinds of stuff. I went through hell to get it. And I thought. I was scared to death that he would talk me into doing it anyway.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you tell anybody you had a problem with that line?

[Rita Moreno]

No, no, no, no. I didn't know what to do. It didn't occur.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So what happened?

[Rita Moreno]

I'll tell you. The day before, I had designated the day that I was going to call the agent. The next day, I got a delivery at my door of the new script of west side Story. Because the changes had been made. They had to, because this was meant for theater now. This was the movie script.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

And I went through the pages until I got to America, where they had the lyrics and it said, puerto Rico. My heart's devotion, Let it sink back in the ocean. That I could deal with. Because it's a character who says, I don't want to go back to that country. But she's not saying, you ugly island. Island of tropic diseases. I mean, I'm actually surprised that I was then that Sondheim would write a lyric like that. Anyway, that solved that problem.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Rita Moreno]

And I said to my. I called my agent the next day. I'll say, I have a story to tell you. And when he heard that I was thinking of, he said, you're kidding me. I said, of course not. Do you think I could really do that to my people?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow.

[Rita Moreno]

And he said, no, I understand. I said, I don't think you do, but never mind. Thank you for saying that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You talk in your book a lot about sexual harassment which you endured at that party.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, that awful Hollywood cocktail party.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That awful Hollywood cocktail party in which you were sexually harassed by the host.

[Rita Moreno]

By the host and by Harry Cohen. He was the head of Columbia, and he was there at that party. And the very first thing that came out of his mouth when I was introduced to him was, I'd like to fuck you. To that day, I had never heard anyone use that word. I'd heard the word. I wasn't, you know, that innocent. But I was in shock. And you know what I did? I giggled. I didn't know what to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Can I tell you something? Somebody said something like that to me back in the 80s in Hollywood, and I did the same thing. I giggled.

[Rita Moreno]

Did you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I did. I did. I was very young.

[Rita Moreno]

She shows how helpless we were then. Yeah, it's amazing. We didn't. We really didn't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And if you could like going, I know what I would do. Looking back on that, I wish I could replay it and just say, why don't you go yourself?

[Rita Moreno]

Which is, I think, why don't you go fuck yourself?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, don't fuck me. Go fuck yourself. Is that what you would do if you could redo that moment?

[Rita Moreno]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, no qualms.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But in other words, there's no giggling now.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, not at all. It's just disgraceful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, except to say that. Don't you think the whole thing, it's interesting because you giggle because, first of all, it's so shocking. It feels so shameful. And, you know, as women, I think we kind of absorb their shame.

[Rita Moreno]

That's what's so weird. You take on this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

They're the ones who should be ashamed.

[Rita Moreno]

But no, it's the opposite happens, right? It's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's bananas.

[Rita Moreno]

That's why I giggled.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know.

[Rita Moreno]

It's bizarre.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's bizarre. Let's take one more quick break. My conversation with Rita Moreno continues in just a moment. This message is brought to you by the Cologuard Test. Cologuard is a one of a kind way to feel more in control of your colon cancer screening, which is something everyone at average risk needs to start doing at 45. Yes, you heard that right. Not 50, not 52. 45. With the cologuard test, you can screen on your own time at home with none of the prep that's required of a standard colonoscopy. It is the only FDA approved non invasive screening test that looks for both altered DNA and blood in your stool even if you don't have any symptoms. It is so important to test beginning at 45 because many patients with early stage colon cancer have no symptoms at all and are diagnosed through screening. And in addition to the convenience and ease of use, it's also affordable. 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You'll also get access to exclusive interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now in the Apple Podcast app. So, in the wonderful PBS documentary about your life, you talk about something which I think is going to really resonate with a lot of women listening to this. When your husband Leonard passed away, you were married for 45 years.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You felt so many things, of course. And you were, you know, with him at the end.

[Rita Moreno]

I'm glad you're asking me this. I know what you're going to ask. Go ahead.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. But you said you felt a sense of relief, and I think that that was an incredibly. Talk about brave, Brave thing to say. I think it gives voice to something that is sometimes unspoken. And can you talk about that many times?

[Rita Moreno]

Unspoken?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

Right. I'll tell you something interesting. About four months after he passed away, I was at a party with people my age mostly, and there were five women who were widowed. And I said to them, I would like to ask you a question that I hope won't offend you. But I said, I really need some backup here because I really thought, man, you're a piece of work. You know, feeling relieved like this, because the morning after I came back home, he died in New York in a hospital. Morning after, in my bed, I said when I woke up, oh, my God, I can stay in bed all day if I want to. I can watch all the TV news that I want to. Because that used to make him crazy. Which is, you know, fair. That's fair. And I realized that I. I just. It's like something amazing went over me, passed over me. And I asked these ladies at that party back to that. I told them how I felt, and I said, did any of you by any chance, feel like that? There were five of them. Four of them said yes. Yes. And they didn't hesitate to say it, maybe because I brought it up the way I did, which was very simple and plain.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And it's not. You're not saying that your love is gone? No.

[Rita Moreno]

You're not saying anything, like, remotely like that. What you're saying is I started a new life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Rita Moreno]

Brand new life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Rita Moreno]

That I couldn't give up because of my daughter. I just couldn't dream of leaving her without her father at the ready at all times. I just couldn't do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you have any loneliness?

[Rita Moreno]

I had loneliness before he passed. Oh. Because I didn't feel able to share that with anyone. I really Thought of going back into therapy because one of the best things that I've ever done for myself was therapy, by the way, psychotherapy. But it was weird to feel all this freedom. I didn't know what the hell to do with it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What did you do with it?

[Rita Moreno]

Not much. For a while, I cried a lot because I did miss him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

And you know what? I missed a lot.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me a lot.

[Rita Moreno]

To this day, I still miss it. Whenever he would pass mate, usually it was in the kitchen, because I was always in the kitchen doing something. He would run his hand over my tush. Oh. Which was so sweet. Always. No, no. Nothing said, nothing explained. I knew what that meant. He just loved my tush. He loved me very, very much. I think that Lenny loved me more than I loved him. Because. Because people, when they marry, very often make a pact, an unspoken pact. In my case, that's exactly what we did. My pact with Lenny was, I'll be your little girl and make you very happy if you'll be my daddy and protect me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Rita Moreno]

Because I had a bunch of fathers, right? I know you have stepfathers and stuff. And that was the unspoken pack that we made. And then one day, after about 10 years, I began to dislike the marriage because he became a controller. And, and that really drove me crazy. And also the controlling part did something else that surprised me. I realized that in being his little girl, I was also this exotic little tropical bird. That, that's how he also saw me. And there was a point where I, I didn't want that anymore. I wanted to say. And I, I, I, I didn't know how to get it. This is the kind of man who, when you would go to the thermostat in the house, go to turn it up because you were cold, he'd say, don't do that. And I wouldn't, Oh, I see. That's how that was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So that was, that was the pact. You listened.

[Rita Moreno]

That was part of the pact.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That was part of the pack.

[Rita Moreno]

You know, you said you wanted this, you got it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you don't have a partner now, right? And so can you talk about finding community? I mean, it's one thing when you're working, because that's all built in. You know, you have your community at work. But when you're not working, what's your community? How have you found your community? I know you have. You're a proud mommy and you're a proud grandma. But beyond that, other than that, that.

[Rita Moreno]

Okay, I'll tell you a story.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay?

[Rita Moreno]

I'm I'm full of stories. I love it. Apocalyptic stories?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Rita Moreno]

When I moved to this wonderful apartment, I found myself. And I love it. I love it. It's beautiful. It's gorgeous. I found myself getting very sad. This was that. You know, this was like eight months ago. Okay? I mean, really, Sa Had. And I had given up driving also. I don't drive anymore because I don't trust my reflexes anymore.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay?

[Rita Moreno]

And I got very lonely. Now I have friends. I have friends who love and adore me. And love and adore me in a wonderful way. Because it's not Rita Moreno, the performer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, it's you.

[Rita Moreno]

It's Rita, my friend Rita.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

Know. So I. I still don't quite understand how it was that I got very, very depressed and very lonely. Lost my appetite, and I sat myself down and did my. What I do, which my therapist urged me to do whenever something puzzled me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

He would say, sit down and think about it and come to some kind of conclusion, if you can. And I thought about it. I said, I'm in an apartment I love. I have my daughter, whom I worship, practically. I have this beautiful place. I have this lovely little town. People smile at me because they recognize me and they're respectful. They don't, you know, all of that good stuff. What is wrong with you? Why are you doing this? And then I thought, I know what's wrong.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What?

[Rita Moreno]

You don't know how to make friends because people have always come to you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh. So what did you do?

[Rita Moreno]

So one day I was in the supermarket, and there was a lady I'd seen several times there who had the loveliest face and this beautiful smile. And one day I went to the supermarket after I made this decision. And she smiled at me once again. And I stopped her. And I said, you have such a lovely face.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Rita Moreno]

I said, I think I would like to know you better. She said, oh, thank you. And I said, I amaze me sometimes. And I said, would you like to have lunch with me tomorrow? And she said, yeah, I'd love to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Rita Moreno]

I said, great. Okay. See you at noon. So I met her for lunch, and we're looking at the venues. And she says to me, tell me something. Do you always go picking up older ladies in supermarkets? I said, no, she's still a friend.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's so nice.

[Rita Moreno]

Her name is Gail.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good old Gail. Everybody needs Gail in their lives.

[Rita Moreno]

That's right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yes. Was it hard giving up driving? I bet that was hard. Jesus.

[Rita Moreno]

It's still hard.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I bet.

[Rita Moreno]

Because I used to Love to toodle around in my car.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Of course. You have complete independence. Autonomy.

[Rita Moreno]

And that's what you miss. You know, I found myself calling Fernanda my daughter.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

Would you have a couple of hours free tomorrow? You know, that kind of thing. Oh, I hated that. I still miss it. I still miss toodling.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Of course you do. I can fully understand why that would be hard to give up. And what about things like cognition, like when you're trying? I mean, it doesn't. I mean, you're searching for words here and there, but it doesn't sound like you're having any serious cognition issues.

[Rita Moreno]

That's the thing that's happening. That's been happening, which is that I don't always remember nouns, names of people, Particularly names of people.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, right.

[Rita Moreno]

That's why I had to ask you about that movie. See, I forgot it again.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, now I forgot it. Okay.

[Rita Moreno]

But that. Yeah. So far that's the only thing. But it's. It's a very annoying thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

Because you can see the object or the person.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

You see them as clear as day, but your brain will not come up with the name until five minutes later it does come back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is it frustrating to ask for help in those circumstances or not really?

[Rita Moreno]

Yes, it's frustrating. Of course it's frustrating.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

Because very often I have to describe the person whose name I can't think of. You know, the one who was married to Harvey Weinstein.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Rita Moreno]

You know, that kind of thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, you mean so and so. No, that's not the one. So, yes, it's annoying.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's annoying. I want to. I'm going to completely shift gears here, because I. There's one aspect of your life that we haven't touched on, and I think that people would benefit to hear from you about this. I know you battled. When you were younger. Of course, you battled feelings of inadequacy and you attempted suicide. Yep. I want to know if. Do you still struggle with a negative voice in your head? That negative voice from way back when. And do you have advice for people who struggle with a lack of self worth, who are listening to this today?

[Rita Moreno]

There is very definitely a side of me that is always kind of delighted when something doesn't work out for me. I named.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Kidding.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, I've named her Rosita. Little Rosita, which was my name as a child.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

But this is a naughty Rosita who kind of sits on a shoulder, and I've learned to deal with her this way. Rosita, when something bad happens, Will very long, very often appear. Not always, but often enough appear and say, I told you, she's still there after all these years, really. And after wonderful, wonderful psychiatric work and all that, Rosita exists. And what I've learned to do with Rosita is say, go to your room, little bitch. Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But, but what happens when she doesn't.

[Rita Moreno]

Rita, Then I have to, I, Rita, have to deal with it in my, in my own way. I just have to, you know, I examine stuff. I examine stuff all the time. I break things apart like a puzzle. It's, that's, that's what I do. I'm very good at that. I'm very good at knowing why people behave in certain ways, which is part of being an actor.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure. Human behavior. Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, absolutely.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

And I'm really good at that. And I'm able to do it with myself. It doesn't always work. But the thing is, you have to address it. Her, him, whoever. You have to address it. You can't just say, God, I'm feeling so miserable. I'll try to forget this. This. It doesn't work anyway. Yeah, that doesn't work at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I, I. In your life, the. There's a theme that I'm feeling, and the theme is about power and freedom. And I think if you agree with me, as you've, as you've lived your life, you've felt more power, self power, and you've gained more freedom. Is that safe to say?

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah. You're a very smart girl. Yeah. And you're not a girl either. But to me, I'll take it. Yeah. Yes. I think that works very well. And I'll tell you something else that I've started doing. And actually, since I moved here, which is not more than 10 months maybe, there's something about me that's very joyous.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Rita Moreno]

It's just very much a part of me. I laugh a lot. I mean, laughing is like a hobby with me. Yeah, I loved. The reason I really fell in love with my husband is because he was funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, that's the great aphrodisiac.

[Rita Moreno]

I'm the only woman in life, in this life, I'm sure, who thought that Mel Brooks was sexy because he was funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, there's another person who thinks the same, and that's me. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Rita Moreno]

Okay. I'll tell you why I think that's sexy. There's something about someone who has a quick wit that makes me feel protected from, from the outside world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, interesting.

[Rita Moreno]

And I find that very sexy because they can protect me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Ah. With their wit.

[Rita Moreno]

That's still sexy for me because that's a way of protecting me by just coming up with some funny, hilarious thing that will distract that person who's handing out the poison.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, interesting.

[Rita Moreno]

What's your reason?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think for me it's twofold. I think it speaks to intelligence, which I, I find intoxicating.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, me too. I forgot to mention that. That's so important.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So important.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And it's also just, it's playful and it's joyous. And that's what I want. I want play. I want joy. That's my goal. If there was anything more to get in my life, I would just want more joy and more play.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so, Rita, speaking of joy, it has been so wonderful to speak with you today. And before we wrap up, I do wann ask you a couple little quick questions.

[Rita Moreno]

Okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. Is there something you would go back and tell yourself at 21, Rita?

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, boy, I certainly would.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What would it be?

[Rita Moreno]

You have value. No matter what you think, you are special and you have value. Nobody ever said that around me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is there something you would go back and say yes to that I originally said no to?

[Rita Moreno]

You mean? Yeah, I said yes too often, let's put it that way. That was my, that was my character. Even when I was not happy about saying it, I would say yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's fascinating.

[Rita Moreno]

And I was very off. You know that man who raped me that I talk about?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Rita Moreno]

In the, in the documentary. I ran into him about three years ago and it turned out that the concert I was doing the following night was booked by him. He's still an agent.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He was. And just so our listeners understand, he was your agent at the time and he raped you.

[Rita Moreno]

And I was 16 and he raped.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Me and he raped.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah. And I kept him as my agent. That's, that's the bad part.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

I found out that he had booked me in this concert about three years ago in Palm Springs. And he said, he called me on the phone and I thought, oh my God, he's still around. And he said, my wife would love to meet you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, Rita.

[Rita Moreno]

And I said, I, I, I, I don't, I don't. Okay, what's her name? And he told me her name and he said, let's meet at the such and such restaurant for brunch. And you won't believe the end of the story. I sit down, I meet his wife and we talk and all that she has no idea. Idea. None. At one point, she decides she needs to go to the bathroom, excuses herself, and there we are, just the two of us. And I said to him, I have to talk to you about something. And he said, but let me say this first. And I said, okay. He said, I was always sorry I didn't make you pregnant.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What?

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah, that's what all my friends say when I. When I tell them this story.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And. Rita. What? And then what?

[Rita Moreno]

Well, okay, how do you respond?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How did you respond?

[Rita Moreno]

How you can say, you son of a. I've never been in. And I. That didn't work for me. And I just said to him, him, you are a piece of work. And I got up and left. That's all I could do. I mean, what. What can you say?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, he has. He has to live with himself. That horrible, demented, awful man. He's. He has to look at himself in the mirror and be who he is. I'm glad you got up and left. I'm glad.

[Rita Moreno]

He didn't realize what he had said. He really didn't. Course, he was coarse. So coarse. Crude.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Crude. Vulgar. Foul. Inhumane. Well, good. So, yeah, you didn't tell him off. Except that you did. You got up and you left.

[Rita Moreno]

There was no way to tell him off.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Rita Moreno]

What can you say, Right? You were awful. I'll never forgive you. I haven't forgiven you. It doesn't work. I think you said it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think in that circumstance, less is more.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're a piece of work. I'm out.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow. That's just incredible, Rita. You really are brave. So now I have one final question for you. Is there something you're looking forward to?

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah. Being 94.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Rita Moreno]

So far, so good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's right. I love it.

[Rita Moreno]

I mean, if it's only nouns that I'm forgetting, that's not the worst thing in the world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, it's not. No, it's certainly not.

[Rita Moreno]

My needs are horrible, but so what? I don't need them for anything anymore.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, it's fine. You don't have to walk up gobs of stairs.

[Rita Moreno]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And listen, you are a blessing.

[Rita Moreno]

Except to accept awards.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right. And I'm sure there'll be plenty more coming your way. You deserve every one of them.

[Rita Moreno]

Oh, God, no. I don't think there's anything left. I've got a lot of those.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But listen, I want to tell you how much I admire you. And I. You're. You're just a complete and total blessing to the world.

[Rita Moreno]

Wow. That's Lovely. Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And also thank you for coming and talking to us on this show. We've got lots of wisdom that you've imparted today, and we're very grateful.

[Rita Moreno]

Well, you're so special. Anyway, I was really was looking forward to this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, thanks.

[Rita Moreno]

I had such a good time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here.

[Rita Moreno]

My pleasure. Goodbye. Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How much fun to catch Rita on her birthday. Oh, my God. That's a wiser than me first. And obviously she's experienced so much in her life. All right, let's get my mom on the zoom and see what she has to say about this conversation. Hi, Mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

Hi, love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi, lovey. Mommy. How are you doing?

[Judith Bowles]

I'm doing fine. How are you doing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good. I just spoke with Rita Moreno, who is 93 years old, if you can even believe what I'm telling you.

[Judith Bowles]

She's incredible. And is she still dancing like crazy?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She doesn't dance as much as she did because her knees are kind of shot, as she says. However, she's sharp as attack. She says she's still searching for nouns and things, but she's still working. She gets out there. I mean, it's quite remarkable. By the way, mom, when you were in New York in the 60s, even the late 50s, I guess, did you see west side Story on Broadway? Broadway?

[Judith Bowles]

I did, yep.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You did?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, yes, yes, absolutely.

[Rita Moreno]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you saw the original production?

[Judith Bowles]

The original production, right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me what your. When you saw it, what was your reaction? Do you recall?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, breathless. Just breathless. It was just one of those. I mean, you knew from the minute it started, it was a little bit like Chorus Line the minute that it started and, and the music made and these shows, the minute they started, you just knew that you were going to have a glorious time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wow. So you got to see. So you saw Chita Rivera play the role of Anita, because she's the one who played it on Broadway. Right.

[Judith Bowles]

I know. So what, what year was that? That. Do you remember?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, what year was it on Broadway? I'm going to guess that it was in the late 50s. I don't know that for sure, but I would guess that because the movie of west side Story came out in 1961.

[Judith Bowles]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So it had to be before then.

[Judith Bowles]

So, so here was it. I was working at ABC at that time and doing summer replacement, and I was a replacement for somebody's secretary. And so I was listening, he had a telephone call and the call came and it was like, get ticket. It is going to be a smash hit, you know, get the.

[Rita Moreno]

Get ticket tickets.

[Judith Bowles]

So. But we did. And. Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

Saw so many things. So many things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Then what else did you say?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, my gosh. I saw Waiting for Godot with. With all these Off Broadway things and that had. Who was the lion? Bertlar.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bertlar.

[Judith Bowles]

And Zero Mostel in something called Rhinoceros. So many wonderful things that I saw at that time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Did west side Story, did that impact your impression of sort of the Latin community at that time? Did the show have impact on you from a cultural point of view as you considered the Latin community in New York?

[Judith Bowles]

It did. It. How to say this, you know, La Cage a full sort of taught me about homosexual love. It made me see that it was real. I mean, made me understand it. And the Latin community, the. The sort of pride that they had in the. And the struggle that they had. I sort of knew it, but it was.

[Rita Moreno]

Yes.

[Judith Bowles]

It was a way to understand.

[Rita Moreno]

Understand.

[Judith Bowles]

It was a way to.

[Rita Moreno]

Got it.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's a very powerful work of art.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Great, Mommy. Well, thank you so much. I'm so happy to talk to you about these little things.

[Judith Bowles]

So great to talk to you about these things, too. And my poetry group was together yesterday, and they all said. They said, you're a celebrity now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You are, Mommy. Everybody is crazy about you.

[Judith Bowles]

I said, well, you know, it's just regular conversations that Julie and I have. And I said, no, I actually don't want to get off the phone. She always says, well, okay, then. Less enough.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I'm like a therapist who goes, okay, well, I'm afraid our time is up.

[Judith Bowles]

Exactly. Exactly. So until next time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Until next time, dear patient.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, much love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Love you, Mommy. Talk to you later.

[Judith Bowles]

Okay, bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Bye. Bye. And before we go, dear listeners, if you or someone you know is in emotional distress or thinking about suicide, you can call or text 988 to access a trained crisis counselor. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of Season 3 AD. Free subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcast app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamilah, zara Williams, Alex McEwen and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of New Content and our SVP of Weekly Content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Joni Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts and if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. Hey Wiser Than Me listeners, we want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best and even better. Once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a $100 Visa gift card. The survey is short and sweet and will help us play ads you don't want to skip and keep bringing you content you love. Just go to lemonadamedia.com survey lemonadamedia.com survey.