Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Bonnie Raitt

Summary

Wiser Than Me™ Podcast Summary: Julia Gets Wise with Bonnie Raitt

Episode Title: Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Bonnie Raitt
Release Date: December 29, 2024
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Bonnie Raitt
Produced by: Lemonada Media

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of Wiser Than Me™, Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down with the legendary Bonnie Raitt. The conversation delves deep into Bonnie’s life, her illustrious music career, the wisdom she's garnered over the years, and her perspectives on aging, creativity, and resilience. The episode is a poignant blend of humor, vulnerability, and profound insights, showcasing the mutual admiration between host and guest.

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Aging and Wisdom

Bonnie Raitt opens up about her age, proudly declaring at [09:55] that she is 74 years old as of November of the previous year. When asked how old she feels, Bonnie responds [10:03], "Probably 50," highlighting a sense of vitality that belies her chronological age. She discusses the physical changes that come with aging, such as joint wear and tear, but emphasizes maintaining her "soft tissue and the spirit still gooey" ([10:37]).

Bonnie reflects on the best aspects of aging, noting a greater sense of relaxation and decreased reactivity to minor provocations. At [11:25], she shares, "I really think that you're more relaxed about the things that could bother you a lot more. That triggers you recognize that you get reactive and trigger and it's just not worth the agita." This newfound calmness allows her to let go of unnecessary stress and focus on what truly matters.

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Music and Creativity

Music has been a cornerstone of Bonnie’s life, serving both as an escape and a means of emotional expression. She reminisces about her early love for the Beatles and rhythm and blues, sharing memories of attending concerts with friends ([00:50] - [03:00]). Bonnie’s passion for music is evident as she speaks about the power of music to evoke deep emotions: "Music is the fastest way to get me to feel something here in my body and not in my head. I really do believe music might be the best part of being human." ([06:30])

The conversation transitions to Bonnie’s songwriting process. She explains that she rarely notates her solos, choosing instead to play by ear and embrace spontaneity ([22:04]). This improvisational approach allows her to capture genuine emotions in her performances, ensuring that each song resonates authentically with her audience.

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Overcoming Challenges

Bonnie candidly discusses her journey through sobriety and how it has influenced her music. Initially concerned that sobriety might diminish her artistic edge, she discovered the opposite. Bonnie shares ([50:53]): "It was just as if the windshield was clearer and I could be more authentically me and feel even stronger." This clarity enhanced her ability to convey genuine emotions in her music, proving that overcoming personal struggles can lead to even greater artistic depth.

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Processing Grief through Music

Grief and loss are recurring themes in Bonnie’s music, serving as a conduit for both personal and collective healing. She shares how singing songs like "Angel from Montgomery" allows her and her audience to process grief ([54:08]): "When I sing just like that, I try not to make eye contact with the people in the audience. But the guys in the band will tell me there were people sobbing in the front." Bonnie emphasizes the sacred space her performances create, offering solace to those experiencing loss.

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Industry Insights: Ageism and Sexism

Addressing the challenges of being a woman in the music industry, Bonnie reflects on her experiences with ageism and sexism. She notes that in her specific genre—folk Americana—there is a growing respect for artists as they age: "I think in my folk Americana wing of the music business, we only get more legendary and people respect us more as we get older." ([47:13])

Bonnie shares strategies for navigating the male-dominated industry, emphasizing the importance of self-trust and maintaining control over her work. She recounts instances where she had to assert her authority, such as revising suggestions from producers to better align with her artistic vision ([48:19]). Bonnie’s resilience and insistence on authenticity have been key to her enduring success.

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Personal Reflections and Advice

When asked what she would tell her 21-year-old self, Bonnie advises: "Try to pick partners that are more your peers than someone that's just feeding what you need and companionship and being okay, you know, see if you can make more of parity in the decision." ([57:52]). She underscores the importance of building relationships based on mutual respect and shared values.

Looking forward, Bonnie expresses hope for global peace and compassion: "Peace, sanity, coming together, putting aside our differences and an end to this... a redirect of the road we're on onto one that's more solid and more loving and more compassionate and more just." ([58:54]). Her vision embodies the wisdom and empathy she has cultivated throughout her life.

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Conclusion

The episode culminates in a touching exchange where both Julia and Bonnie express their mutual admiration and emotional connection. Bonnie reflects on her authentic self and the sacredness of her music, while Julia shares personal anecdotes that underscore the impact Bonnie’s work has had on her life.

Bonnie leaves listeners with a message of authenticity and resilience, highlighting that true strength comes from inner peace and self-acceptance. Julia’s emotional response throughout the conversation underscores the profound impact of Bonnie’s wisdom and artistry.

"We are one," Bonnie declares towards the end ([61:01]), encapsulating the essence of the episode—a celebration of wisdom, music, and enduring friendship.

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Notable Quotes

• Bonnie Raitt at [09:55]: "I'm proud of the music that I made."
• Bonnie Raitt at [11:25]: "More relaxed about the things that could bother you a lot more."
• Bonnie Raitt at [50:53]: "The windshield was clearer and I could be more authentically me and feel even stronger."
• Bonnie Raitt at [54:08]: "When I sing just like that, I try not to make eye contact with the people in the audience."
• Bonnie Raitt at [57:52]: "Try to pick partners that are more your peers than someone that's just feeding what you need."
• Bonnie Raitt at [58:54]: "Peace, sanity, coming together, putting aside our differences and an end to this..."
• Bonnie Raitt at [61:01]: "We are one."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as an inspiring testament to Bonnie Raitt’s enduring legacy and the wisdom that comes with age and experience. Julia Louis-Dreyfus expertly navigates the conversation, allowing listeners to gain intimate insights into Bonnie’s life, music, and philosophies. For anyone seeking inspiration on aging gracefully, harnessing creativity, and finding strength through adversity, this episode is a must-listen.

Transcript

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, hi there. It's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We've got so much more wisdom to share from the magnificent old ladies featured this season. To celebrate the start of season three, we've added some groovy new items to our Wiser Than Me merchandise collection. Head over to our merch shop to check out all of our great stuff, like a classic Wiser Than Me bagu tote bag, a kitchen tea towel with my grandma Deedee's delicious peanut butter cookie recipe featured on it, and a new, gorgeous hardcover Wiser Than Me notebook to capture all of this season's bits of wisdom. Start shopping today by visiting wiser than me shop.com.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Lemonade.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

For me, music. Well, listening to music is both an escape from what's going on and a way to feel what's going on more intensely, you know, always has been. When I was little, I loved the Beatles. Little kids love the Beatles. I especially loved Ringo. Ringo was my favorite because he had that big nose, you know, that's irresistible. And I had a John Lennon doll, too, that somebody gave to me. Of course, I was only five years old, so I didn't know they were geniuses. And I love the monkeys, partly because they're cute and funny. But Last Train to Clarksville is pretty good. Truth be told, my Grandma Dee gave me a monkey's record. Somebody must have told her to do that. I think she was more Benny Goodman than Mickey Dolan's. And of course, crushes are tied to music. I mean, I've already talked on this show about Bobby Sherman, but how about James Taylor? Oh, Lord Jesus. James Taylor on the COVID of the album Sweet Baby James. I just looked at it and I fell so deeply in love all over again. And I have to say, side note, there was this guy that worked at a woman's clothing boutique that was really funky and cool called the Elephant Trunk. And it was in Mount Kisco, New York. And I used to go into that. That store practically on a daily basis when I was visiting my dad because that man was there and he looked so much like James Taylor. And I would just look at him, and I can look at him right now in my mind's eye. And I'm leaving my husband for that man because he was so fucking gorgeous. Anyway, I'm talking about music. It's very, very evocative. Holy Christ. And I think the most important musical discovery for me was around middle school when I fell in love with rhythm and blues, soul music, and Funk. I started to go to concerts in Washington, D.C. with my best friend Carlene. We saw the Commodores, so Sly in the Family Stone, Parliament Funkadelic. We love to funk. You Funkenstein, your funk is the best. And it was the best. I still can't get enough of that music. And then a couple years out of high school, I got to be on Saturday Night Live, and I got to see all these artists up close when they were the musical guests on the show. And we got some great ones like Queen and the Clash and Randy Newman and that band Squeeze. Excuse me, does anyone remember Squeeze? They were so great. Just saying those names takes me right back. But to top them all, one week. Who is the host and the musical guest? Stevie Wonder. Yeah, Stevie Wonder. And he shows up. And of course, he's exactly what you want him to be. He's funny, he's charming, he's singing all the time. And he's a genius. I mean, of course. I mean, come on. He's Stevie Wonder. So there's this meeting in the executive producers room with all the actors and the writers and everybody with Stevie Wonder to pitch sketches or something. I don't really exactly remember, but I was late, okay? Oh, God. So I get there, and there are, like, 25 people crammed into the room. And I'm very embarrassed to be late, of course. So I kind of sneak into the room, and Stevie Wonder from across the room says, well, there she is, my pretty baby. And everybody looks over, and I'm blushing, of course, because I'm caught being late, but mostly because Stevie Wonder just called me pretty. And then I thought, wait, what? How do you know it was me? The guy is blind. How did he know it was me? And it turns out he loves to make jokes about his blindness. Probably because he's never let it hold him back in any way. I mean, he kept pitching sketches where he was driving cars and heavy machinery. And there was a controversial sketch where he plays tennis against Joe Piscopo and actually got into the show. Anyway, just so many memories are tied to songs and artists. You know, just one or two notes and everything floods back. The crush, the breakup, the sadness, the joy, the adventure, you know, the life. Music is the fastest way to get me to feel something here in my body and not in my head. I mean, even. Honestly, even Christmas carols. God damn it. Sometimes I get so choked up, I can barely sing along. It's power. Music has real power. A direct connection through your ears, to your heart, to your emotions, your soul. I really do believe music Might be the best part of being human. That's something to consider. And then there's an artist that I haven't mentioned, and I haven't mentioned her on purpose. I was saving her for last. She's that important to me. I have goosebumps as I'm saying this. Her music, how she writes, how she sings, how she plays guitar, how she plays slide guitar. If I could, boy, I'd want to do it just the way she does. Today we're talking to Bonnie Raitt. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. All right, so even though I love music, it's kind of hard to get me out of the house to listen to people live for some reason, I don't know. But today's guest is one artist I never miss. One time, I saw her outdoors in San Francisco. It was August, and so, of course, it was freezing, and she was playing, I remember, with James Taylor, and my husband said, how is she gonna play? It's too cold. And she came out and actually said, oh, God, it's fucking freezing. And. And she got somebody to give her a pair of gloves that have half the finger cut out. So she was basically playing in mittens, and it didn't matter. She played so beautifully. And afterwards, I wanted to go and say hi to her, but I couldn't stop crying, so it was just too embarrassing. I've seen her over and over, and yet she still makes me cry to songs I've heard her sing a thousand times. She is the one singer who I kind of feel like she's mine. Do you know what I mean? I have my own relationship with her music that makes me feel like more than just another fan. And of course, there are thousands, hundreds of thousands of her fans who feel exactly the same way. And, oh, my God, the way she plays guitar. Oh, she is such a distinct, singular artist. Whether she's playing blues or soul or rock and roll, covering something or playing one of her perfect original songs, she kills it. You know, it's her instantly. She got her first guitar when she was 8 or 9 and discovered she had real talent on it at a Quaker summer camp in upstate New York. Cut to, decades later, B.B. king called her the best slide player working today. I mean, come on, she's just all red hair and no bullshit, right? I'm so crazy about her tough, don't fuck with me, get it done attitude, all while being indisputably hot. She's navigated the music business for more than five decades, always on her own terms. And that's an industry notorious for its massage. When she started her own record label, she hired a team of four superstar women so that they would be the ones calling the shots.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yep.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Our guest today is the Rock and Roll hall of Famer with 18 studio albums under her belt, who's been nominated for 30 Grammy Awards and won 13 of them, including Song of the Year, which she just won last year. The woman is a living legend, ranking on the Rolling Stones list of the greatest singers and the list of the greatest guitarists of all time. And she's absolutely the top of my list in both. And I haven't even mentioned her social activism, her political power, her devotion to original blues artists, and her extraordinary personal journey. Oh, and by the way, on her very first album, 1971, she even had a tune called Women Be Wise. How about that? So let's welcome a woman who is so much wiser than me, Bonnie Raitt. Hi, Bonnie.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Hey, how are you? Julia? I don't know how I can live up to this. I'm shaking in my boots.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Don't be shaken. I'm sh.

[Bonnie Raitt]

That you get me so deeply because it takes all of those qualities you like in me are in you, and that's how we make that connection. I know that's the truth and I've seen them in you. So thank you for honoring me with.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I'm already crying because I love you so much.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, I do.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I really do. And I'm just sorry.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I'm very touched. I'm verklempt myself.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, anyway, thank you for being here today. Let me start by asking the requisite question. Are you comfortable if I ask you your age?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Absolutely. Proudly. 74 as of November last year.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Nice, nice. And how old do you feel, Bonnie?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh my God. Probably 50.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Uh huh.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Maybe. Maybe. You know, some. The wear and tear on joints from being active and injuries here and there and all of that stuff, you know, just wear and tear from age is the only way I feel a little bit more. I wouldn't say less vibrant, but it takes a little bit more to get up off the couch. You know, I can tell that the parts are getting a little creaky. Worn.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Little worn.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I'm trying to keep the soft tissue and the spirit still gooey.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Smart. But are the parts getting. I mean, you still do what you want to do physically, or are you.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yes, yes. And I work at it. I mean, I try to do yoga at least three times a Week and I hike and I move around and try not to sit around too much, but it's. Yeah, 74 is different than 64. And, you know, we'll all have to keep lifting each other up through these rough times because that's the part that beats us down more than gravity, I think, you know, the cruelty and the suffering and the war and the endless stupidity and. What, are you kidding? I think that wears you out.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Beats down the spirit.

[Bonnie Raitt]

It's harder to get up off the spiritual couch when you get that pounding you down.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, I like that. I like that. What do you think is the best part about being your age?

[Bonnie Raitt]

I really think that you're more relaxed about the things that could bother you a lot more. That triggers you recognize that you get reactive and trigger and it's just not worth the agita, you know?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Bonnie Raitt]

It's not healthy for you.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

It doesn't end up, you know, harboring resentments, harboring anger and keep stuffing it and not saying how you really feel. That works to get you in the world. But somehow I can't separate the fact that I've been. I'm in a tremendously lucky position of having enough power to be self powered, you know, in the business. I mean, I run my own ship with a great team, but I don't work for anybody and I don't have to answer to anybody. And I'm living in a time when women can carve their own destinies a lot more than my mother's generation even.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

So I think I've earned the ability to be more relaxed from 36 years of work in a sobriety program, but also spiritual and therapy. And some of it is just the age. I can't separate the times we're in from having been a feminist. You know, I mean, if we were fighting what women had to fight in the 1930s.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, please.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I probably look like my grandmother did when she was 74. It was tougher to be a woman before. And I think we know more. We know how to get out of situations that are really unpleasant and not working. We're wiser and we get the hell out of that situation and stop hanging out with people that are draining us.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

And that's a wisdom that hopefully could come earlier, but for me, it took a long time.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

So every decade I'm more. I'm not putting up with any more of this crap and I'm more comfortable where I'm at. And if I'm not comfortable, it's up to me to move out of the way.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

So it sounds like you've found a way of being more sanguine about either certain things that maybe used to bother you and now you can let them go. And if they really bother you and they deserve attention, you handle it, you know, sort of maybe without apology.

[Bonnie Raitt]

By the way, that was very well spoken. But yeah, I think that I'm better at that than I was. I'm less at the mercy of other people. And I've heard a lot of women on your podcast and heard a lot of other women that I admire and read their book and have friends that are older than me and they also have told me they are just more comfortable with themselves than they used to be.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I've heard you differentiate before between capital B Bonnie and lowercase B, Bonnie. Can you explain the difference between. I mean, I have a feeling I know what you mean, but will you tell us what you mean between those two types of Bonnie?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yes, and that's diving deep early on, but why not?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yeah. The way those two uppercase and lowercase came up for me was in being asked about the balance of my life. You know, what bugs you and what bugs me is and what has driven a lot of as I've learned over the years with therapy and in Sabrai, working on my programs and finding out, trying to analyze why I do what I do and why I was moved to overindulge in this or pick the wrong partner or why do I, why have I been the way that I've been when it's clearly not working? And that's something that comes with age. But one of the problems that I recognized early on was ever since I was little, I really got more strokes and attention and love by performing outside of my family unit, at school, even for my relatives. I became Bonnie, the cute little redhead with dimples that if I did a little Shirley Templetap dancer and then, you know, if I played the guitar for my folks friends, I got a lot of positive attention by being extroverted. And I think that red headed personality thing, you're born with that color hair and you're supposed to grow into it. So I got what I didn't get at home by being big Bonnie, you know, and I'll say that that became later when I became professional, I'm more comfortable on stage and I always wondered why, why when I come off stage I don't have the same self esteem or lack of self judgment. So I was beating myself up a lot. And privately as a little girl when I went back. And so I wonder when that started. I was never that comfortable when I wasn't performing the version of myself that the good little girl or the cute girl or the talented girl or the all A's or the daddy's little girl and, you know, not cause too much of a ruckus. And then when I was just back in my room, I would pour my heart out and play the guitar and just sing these sad ballads and longing and look in the mirror and hate what I saw, you know, So I had a double life early on, and I have to be careful now that I don't let that schism happen. And I remember the metaphor of the wizard of Oz being found out to be just a regular man. You know, pay no attention to man behind the Curtain.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

The best movie ever. The best.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I totally related to that because I have been given this mantle of so much power and responsibility and I look. I look so badass to everybody, but I'm really not as like that. And I. And I'm in my private life, I have to really wrestle who that is in the ground and see, don't spend too much time just stoking the BR machinery. Otherwise you lose who you are when you're just a smaller case.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, that is just fascinating. And I think that, that. Well, there are two things I need to say. One is, I think even in my own life as a performer, obviously I don't do what you do, but when I perform, there is a. It's like a hit of something and. And it's very delicious and intoxicating.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Right?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

It's intoxicating and I love it. I love it. But it isn't who I am either. I mean, it is who I am, but it's not the whole thing at all. And you know, when I walk into a room, people expect me just to be funny.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yep.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

And I'm not. I mean, I have a funny bone. I have a sense of humor, but I'm not like, you know, Shecky Green going off. You know what I'm saying? I'm not. But that thing. I know what you're talking about. They bump up against each other when you're a performer.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Right.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

They really do. I completely get that. The other thing I just wanted to mention is because you mentioned the wizard of Oz, which is like top five movie for me of all time.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I agree.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

And it's an incredible. Every time I watch that movie, I die, I cry so hard. It's so beautiful. Have you ever heard Judy Garland's There was A scene in the movie that they cut in which she sings Somewhere over the Rainbow when she's being held in the castle by the witch. And evidently. But listen, Bonnie, seriously, you've got to find it because you'll start crying. It is so gut wrenching because she can barely get through it, she's weeping so much. And they decided to cut it because it was too sa. But if you hear it, you will hear what a magnificent performer she is, which you already knew, of course, but it is an elevated performance of that tune. So do me a favor and look for that, okay? Or have somebody find that for you.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Thank you for telling me about that. Because I immediately get her vulnerability in her voice for all the strength that she had.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

That's why so many people relate to her.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

That's right. There is a real vulnerability.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, my. And to be put through what she was put through as a child. Uppers and downers and dance for this and.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right, exactly. Do you feel pressure to create? Do you feel frustration when you're not creating?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, no. Here you go. Here's where the rubber hits the road. I am frustrated not being on tour. There's nothing like what happens on stage. Nothing like it. I mean, I make records so I can tour. My dad loved it till the day he stopped performing at 86 years old. And he only mostly stopped because his audience was passed away. But I'm telling you that I am frustrated when I'm not. It's not the adulation of the crowd, it's the gang comradery, it's the traveling. It's the, you know, waking up in a different city in a new opening act, an opening night, every night. Show those people. You still got it.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I love, since I was 20 years old, being on the road. So when I'm home, I have a satisfying, beautiful life here. I live where I want to live. I got a small circle of chosen family, friends, and I'm healthy and I'm lucking. But I really miss what happens playing with other people on the road. Right. I mean, playing by myself is not as satisfying.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

But do you play every day?

[Bonnie Raitt]

No, I only play when I'm getting ready to tour you.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Really? So you're not sitting around noodling on the guitar or the piano at home?

[Bonnie Raitt]

No.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

No way. Really?

[Bonnie Raitt]

No. I'm too busy managing the big career of this woman who wears my name. So the business of being Bonnie Raitt is taking up a lot of my time. And I'm glad to do it and answer as diplomatically and kindly when I can't do a benefit or I can't sing on someone's record, or I can't write a blurb. And when I hear a song that I really love and I want to do it live, then I pick up the guitar and learn it.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Got it.

[Bonnie Raitt]

But I mean, I'm not. When I was a teenager, I just played all the time, but I don't do that so much anymore. But now I'm playing for fun, and I gotta get my calluses going again. I did my vocal warmup today, and I'm singing on a session after we dock on this podcast. I'm singing on someone's record, so I'm getting that fire is going again, and my fingers are going. Where is it? Where is it?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

My son is a musician, and he's always noodling and writing. I mean, he's young, of course, and he wanted me to ask you, how written out beforehand are your solos? Are they fully improvised on the day or notated beforehand?

[Bonnie Raitt]

I wouldn't know how to notate a solo. I didn't take guitar lessons, so I don't know how to read music. But I took a little piano lesson, so. But I do everything by ear pretty much. I just sort of make chord charts when I'm learning a new song. But I play mostly by ear, but, yeah, it's pretty spontaneous. And if. When I'm making a record, I like to get it as live as possible on the first or second take. So minimal rehearsal, just pick the key, learn the lyrics. You know, I get lyrics in front of me so I can just be present and get the band and I rocking on this tune. And then later I do my guitar solos. So I might do three or four takes, but when I piece together from two or different takes, if I want to make a combo, a lot of times I start with that as the scaffolding for the solos on tour. I'm not a big jam. I'm not a big jam stretcher out for three or four times around. Right. I'd rather play more songs in the set and save the guitar duels for the, you know, the rockers. I. Then I get. Then I turn to my other guitar player and we just let it rip for a while. So that's fun.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

That's so fun. So you took piano, I think you said, for five years when you were little?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yes.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

God.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Good memory.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

And I took piano for two years, and then I quit when my piano teacher hit me, if you can believe it.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Are you serious?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

That bitch hit me.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I would have Hit her back like Sidney Poitier. And to stir with love. Not to stir with love. And in the heat of the night when he slaps Rod. When he slaps Rod Steiger. Yeah. Unbelievable.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

But anyway, so that was the end of my piano lessons. But you wanted to play, like, rock tunes and stuff of the day, and I guess they wouldn't let you do that or what.

[Bonnie Raitt]

No, no. I love taking my piano lessons. My teacher passed away, and I also fell in love with the guitar. And I was playing a guitar more, and I got enough out of the piano. I only wanted to learn piano enough so that I could back myself up and play theme from Exodus and pop songs. You know, I had my. My mom was my dad's musical director in rehearsal.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

And so we had racks and racks of drawers of alphabetized sheet music, and I would just come home when it wasn't time for me to learn my classical piece. Yeah, I would. I would play Richard Rogers songs, or if ever I would leave you, I'd do all the Broadway songs and I would play by ear and sing along with them. So I'm so lucky that I grew up with two incredible music parents.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

And let me ask you something. How do you know when a song is the right fit for you? Does it hit you in the gut right away? Do you know? Instantly?

[Bonnie Raitt]

I pretty much know when I hear a song that I love so much that I just want to sing it. I mean, it started, you know, when we're little and Joan Baez. It was one thing to fall in love with that first Joan Baez or Odetta record, but I just had. I had to sing and play it. Not for performing it, but just to take in the communing with her. There was something about the song where it wasn't enough to just hear her do it, and it wasn't about her as much as it was just what that made me feel. I wanted to make myself feel. So I would sing for myself. And I'm still. When I hear a song that I go nuts over, I go, man, we're gonna kill that.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

And you know, right away. You know, right away. That's so interesting. Cause I have the. I mean, just like reading a script, for example, if you know, you know, it's a gut feeling. It's like, oh, I have to do this is the feeling. I have to do this.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I have to just do a sidetrack and say, you hurt my feelings. Is so.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Thank you.

[Bonnie Raitt]

It is so fantastic. As are all your performances. I just adore you. So don't get me started. But I'll bet you when you read that script, you said, I have to do this.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, I'll tell you interestingly, first of all, what's so uncanny is that you mentioned that, because your voice, if I close my eyes, your voice sounds a lot like Nicole Holofsenter's voice, who's the director and writer. But when I sat down with Nicole before she'd even written the script, and she said, she told me the premise being that a woman who's a writer who relies on her husband, they're madly in love with one another for his support. And when he says he likes something, obviously he likes something of hers. And then she only finds out that the film is about her finding out that he's been lying to her about her work and he actually hates it.

[Bonnie Raitt]

It's so profound, isn't it? Oh, my go. I relate to this so much that I almost wanted to go ask everybody in my life that is. Are you. Have you been lying to me? It's very risky to do it with your romantic partner, though.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

No shit.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I like to keep them kind of separate for that reason. Because I don't want to know. Yeah. I don't want to be asked what my opinion is of what they're doing or the other way around. I just think, oh, sounds great.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

We have to take a really quick break. My conversation with Bonnie Raitt continues in just a. When was the last time you listened to your gut? There's a lot of misleading health advice out there, and most of what we're taught about food is wrong. Big Food even pays TikTok influencers to say that ultra processed foods are healthy. Seriously, have you ever noticed a health claim on fresh fruit? You get my point? Understandably, there's a lot of distrust. So who should you turn to for accurate information? Zoe. Zoe understands that our health as a society is suffering and that it's time we listen to our gut. Backed by one of the world's largest microbiome databases and most scientifically advanced, at home GUT health tests, Zoe gives you proven science whenever you need it. The start of every new year is noisy with health advice that's often full of hot air. But Zoe is the solution you can trust because they make your gut health their business. Your Zoe membership starts by actually testing your gut health and figuring out what the best solutions are for you. Go to Zoe.com and find out what Zoe membership could do for you. And because you listen to Wiser than me, you can use the exclusive code WISER10 to get 10% off membership. As a Zoe member, you'll get an at home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your gut. That's z o e.com use code wiser10 at checkout. Trust your gut, but trust Zoe. Hey, Wiser Than Me listeners, it's Julia here with some very exciting news. We have teamed up with Cadis, the California based maker of high quality custom eyewear, to bring you exclusive Wiser Than Me reader frames. How cool is that? I personally hand picked the frame, the color, and added a very special phrase engraved right on top. It says, get wise. Isn't that fabulous? So you can feel the wisdom flowing every time you wear them. So head to wiserthanmeshop.com and check out the Katis collection to grab yours. Now. Now, your record company, your label is called Red Wing, right?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yes.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

First of all, why is it called Red Wing?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Because of this shock of hair on the side. It goes down and then I put a little white streak in the bird wing and the little logo. It's like the red wing with the little white streak.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I love that.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Which I've had since I was 24, by the way. Just showed up out of the blue and I've had that white streak. And when I Finally, at 31, when my red hair kind of faded a little bit, it was still just that one white streak. And I tried dyeing it when I dyed my whole head and I just went, you know, I'm used to this thing being here. It felt weird. So people always ask me, why do you dye your hair white? I go, cause it's the only real color that's been there all this time. I just never touched it.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

It's so ch. I love everything about it.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

And as a matter of fact, you'll be. You'll get a kick out of this. I'm doing a Marvel movie and. You are. Yeah, but listen to this. I'm wearing hair with a streak in it in the front.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Get out of here. Fantastic. Swear to God, I've been told by someone that said, oh, it means you've been kissed by an angel. So just wear that when you.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, I've been kissed by an angel. Can I tell you something, Bonnie? I'm gonna use that line in the movie. Can I use it?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Good. Yes, yes.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I'm gonna totally use it.

[Bonnie Raitt]

It was the hospice nurse that was there with my dad when he passed away in the Palisades. She said, I've always loved that white Streak, you know, it means you've been kissed by an angel.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, I love hospice workers.

[Bonnie Raitt]

As she opens the window when my dad passed away and let his spirit out. I mean, whoa. I said, okay, I'm gonna take. I'm taking that, and I'm gonna be kissed by an angel. That's why I have the white streak.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, my.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I mean, it was within. It wasn't at the exact moment. It just means that was the same person who was kind of connected to the other realms in a way that when you are blessed enough to be able to be with a loved one, as they're getting ready to go, and those angels, those saints, those hospice nurses are there helping you get through it, she just said, does anyone mind if I open the window? And then he passed away. And she, you know, she said, I like to let the spirit out, you know, And I just was. It was so moving to me. It wasn't anything I would question because she was an incredibly empathetic, compassionate, wonderful nurse that helped not only my dad, but the whole family get through that.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

You know, I think hospice workers are the most admirable, the most tender. My dad passed away with hospice workers, and. And I had the same experience. Although now, having heard this about the window, I should have opened the window, But I know his spirit definitely found a way out of the house anyway. I mean, we're all over the place, which is good. That means we're.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, we were talking about my record company.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, yeah. So wait a minute. So obviously songwriting, generally speaking, is a male dominated field. And. And I think. Isn't it? Is it not?

[Bonnie Raitt]

I don't think so.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, you would know better than I. I thought it was.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Well, I'm just saying that I'm not a country music artist, but I was surprised with this amount of zillions of streams and appreciation of so many women artists in the country field that it turned out that for a couple of decades, they were mostly just playing guys on the radio. And I couldn't understand what that gap was. You know, like, we can't understand a wage gap. Are you still. Are you kidding? Still there. But no, I think. I mean, Joni Mitchell and so many great Carole King, great singer songwriters and artists have always been instrumentalists as well.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

But, like, when you're writing a song, Bonnie, is it important to you to write a song through a female lens?

[Bonnie Raitt]

I mean, no, I don't even think about.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

You don't think about gender. You're just writing.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Well, when I sing angel from Montgomery, some of my strongest Songs have been written by men about women. Nobody's Girl is a beautiful song from Nick of time, Larry, John McNally, and oh, my God, there's a whole slew of them that are so inside what women are feeling. There's a song of mine on longing in their hearts called all at Once. So it was the first time I wrote in the third person about a woman that had a fight with her daughter and a teenage daughter and, you know, and it was just like a short story. And that was really. That really felt good to write and sing from a woman's point of view.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

So I sing from women's point of view. Women be wise, you know, keep your mouth shut.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Don't advertise your man. Yeah, I love those lyrics.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, thank you. I think I've written a lot of really strong songs. Oh, please.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Just like, that is incredible. I mean, I was just re listening to that yesterday and then this morning. And every time I hear it, I cry. I lay my head upon his chest. I was with my boy again.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I mean, thank you. Thank you. I watched that go down on tv. A news team brought a crew for a woman to meet the man who had her son's heart. And that just inspired me. I mean, I wrote a story about a woman who actually caused the death of her child. Cause she was looking the other way and she just was so ashamed and so horrified. She. She just disappeared. And there was no way for her ever to have found any redemption. You know, she was just one of those people, that crazy lady down the street with the blinds closed and that this guy who had her son's heart that she didn't even know was donated. Spent all this time to find her. But anyway, to answer, there are a lot more songs I sing from a woman's point of view. I should probably say I write from a woman's point of view and not. I just don't think about it consciously.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I understand. Well, I mean, it's your experience as a woman, so that's why you don't think about it consciously. I would imagine. But I mean, also, I wanted to mention too, that your cover of Baby Mine.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, I love that one.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

So I have to say that when I was listening to that on repeat when I had my first son, and by the way, produced by Don, was who? Don and Gemma are good friends of ours.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, of course they would be good friends of yours. Aren't they the greatest?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

The greatest.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, and Sheila. I know. Cause I mean, I knew Sheila more because she booked me for David Letterman.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. Speaking of which, do you know we met on Letterman?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yes, we did. I even. I remember I was going, God, she's just built like a rocket ship. I just remember loving you, but then going, man, I am gonna work out more. No. So I was so inspired. I remember being thrilled that we were on at the same time.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, my God, me too. And I have a picture I just have to show you. Here it is. And I mean, I know our listeners can't see. How do I get this big here? Can you see? How do I do this?

[Bonnie Raitt]

I can see it. Oh, sweet. Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Isn't that fun?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Are we foxes or what?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

We are stone cold fucking foxes. I love it.

[Bonnie Raitt]

And I was so happy that you are, you know, friends with Jane and Fonda.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yeah. You're political, and I just. I love who you are in the world, too. So, you know, we're gonna go on and on like this. People were gonna just shake their head. You guys just make a date and sleep together. Get it over.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah, well, fuck them. We're not. I mean, we're doing what we want to do. We can talk about anything we want. What was it like being on the road all the time with men? Was it great? Did you love it? Did they drive you crazy?

[Bonnie Raitt]

All of the emotions? No, no. I love. I. I loved it. But I have two brothers, you know, I'm not a. I'm not a girly girl anyway, so it was really fun. I was kind of a tomboy. I never identified with, you know, hair and makeup and, you know, I just wasn't into sh. And I didn't want to be a wife and mother. You know, I just wanted.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

From the get go. From the get go?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yeah. Gidget was a big role model from when that book and movie came out.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Bonnie Raitt]

When she was not accepted in a man's world of surfing. And then she got really good at it.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yes. You're the Gidget.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yeah. And then I've also said this on interviews, but I really loved Amanda Blake. Cause she had red hair and she owned the saloon, and she didn't have to get married, but they were way in love. And I just thought that was so cool. Because a lot of women, the mothers of my friends in LA when I was growing up, somehow in the middle of our teen years, a lot of them were getting dumped. You know, the husbands were marrying younger women. You know, either the wives later I realized might have been premenopausal, or when the kids. You know, my dad left my mom when we were when I was 19 and found a younger woman that he was closer with. I mean, I don't know what went on between them closed doors, but parenting teenagers can put a lot of stress on a relationship.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Sure.

[Bonnie Raitt]

And my dad was away a lot, and, you know, my mom was. You know, it was difficult. And so I just got the message where I just don't want to have to depend on any guy. You know, I'd just rather be way in love, but stay independent and be the. Not the other woman. Like breaking up people's homes. But even before feminism, I didn't want to have that model of being married and living in the suburbs and having kids.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Did you get pushback on that from anybody?

[Bonnie Raitt]

No, didn't. I was just naturally a little a tough girl, you know, And I adopted that blues mama Persona early on with my band Jump Ahead. From Teenage Years to my first album. I couldn't stand the way I sang. Cause it was so fruity. And I wanted to sound like Etta James. And it wasn't gonna happen.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Wait a minute. Wait a min.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Stand I. On the first album, I hated it. Hated, hated. But I loved doing it. I just didn't like listening to it. So I. I would adopt this kind of swagger and drink and smoke and, you know, talk. I mean, I listened to some bootleg live shows of my early folk days where I was just like, gonna what? You know, I just.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Who was?

[Bonnie Raitt]

I was. I adopted a Persona as if I was somebody that did own a saloon.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Can you listen back to your music or you can't? Is it hard for you to listen? I mean, that's. You're talking about your first album in early days. But is it hard for you to listen back?

[Bonnie Raitt]

I have great affection and compassion and a lot of great memories of who she was back then. You know, I'm proud of. Proud of the music that I made. But do I like listening to my voice? Not really. I mean, maybe as I got older, I could like it more.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah, your voice.

[Bonnie Raitt]

How about you? When you see yourself, do you cringe when you see early footage of yourself?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I don't like it. I gotta tell you, Bonnie. I don't like it. Yeah, I really don't. I'm very. I mean, there are a few exceptions, but I'm pretty judgy about it. And I just watch mistakes. I see mistakes I'm making and. Oh, no, it's true, I do. Which is. You know. But I mean, I like certain things. There's certain bits and bobs I can watch. But for the most part, I would. I just sort of wince.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yep, I have a lot of that, too. I know exactly what you mean. And here's the thing that I found out.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yes?

[Bonnie Raitt]

How about when you think you're making a cool looking face at the camera?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, please.

[Bonnie Raitt]

You see the results and you look like you just trying to go to the bathroom.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

You look like such a dumbass. I know. And it's funny you say that because somebody posted something of me on Instagram or somewhere and it was. Anyway, it was some red carpet event and I had gotten it in my head that I smile too much on the red carpet.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I'm right with you where you're going with this.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

And so I'm standing there and I'm sort of looking over my shoulder and sort of like a slightly open mouth and I'm not smiling. And I look like a. I'm comatose in the picture.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I just. I mean, it's really so embarrassing. I just had to just look at a whole bunch of shots where I could have sworn I was or even live shots. Now I'm editing, helping pick the promo pictures for the Austin City Limit show. We cut all these shots of me playing guitar. They just look hideous. I mean, I'm never. Now I'm gonna be self conscious about how I play.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, no, you mustn't wanna be.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I don't wanna be. I wanna just. I just wanna wear. I'll wear a Covid mask and just make whatever face I want.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Let me explain to you something. When you have that guitar on, nobody holds a guitar like you. Nobody has swagger like you do. It is incredible. So under no circumstances are you allowed to do a head game on yourself about holding that guitar. I will not permit it. I will.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Well, the guitar part's fine. I just have to make sure that I'm not making the face that I just saw in about 10 photos.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

But, I mean. But your voice has changed as you've gotten older. It's gotten a little bit deeper. Is it? I guess. I mean, I think that happens naturally. Yeah.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yeah, it happens. You get lower. You get more notes down below as you get older. And it sounds. As I warm up more.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Thank you. I mean, I feel like I have more agility. And I know that I have to say, when I look at my pals, Jackson Brown and, you know, Bruce Hornsby, Bruce Springsteen, a lot of people, men and women that are touring now, their voices have never been better. And it's really great because we're not 50, we're like 70.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

It's fantastic. It's a huge benefit to aging, isn't it?

[Bonnie Raitt]

And look at Tony Bennett and Willie and Bebe. I mean, my dad was singing his butt off when he was in his 80s.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Incredible.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I mean, when people go, are you going to retire? I go, why would I retire?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Why would you do that? No, keep going. Never stop. Never stop. Actually, I'm circling back to something because I really did want to ask you all these fabulous people in blues, women in particular, and Sippy Wallace. And I know you talk about her like she was your grandmother. I do need to know. Cause she was like, a wise old lady for you, Correct?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yeah, exactly. And I hung out all my 20s with these people who are like my age now.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah. So what kind of. If you recall, what kind of wisdom did she impart to you? What did you learn from her?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Well, I'll tell you what was great was that she had all of the inherent swagger still. But she was bemused. And I don't think that when you're in your 20s, you'll be amused by men's bad behavior. Or, you know, in her case, you know, if somebody should have paid royalties. And they. She wasn't. You know, she was just really happy to be appreciated. And she would just sit and listen. Listen to us clowning around in the dressing room, you know, and she would just. I just looked over at her, and she was like. Not winking, but almost. She was bemused and relaxed and having the time of her life. And just. I said, man, I want to get to that Yoda place. Muddy was like that. John Lee Hooker was like that a lot. Fred McDowell, Ms. Fred McDowell, Sippy Wallace. You know, when you're talking about Ruth Brown, who did get ripped off and built Atlantic Records, she was from a different generation. In the 50s, she kind of built Atlantic Records. She was pissed. So you don't cross her. But Sipp was. For me, as a young woman to get to be with somebody that was so wise about men. And she said, you can make me do what you want to do, but you got to know how. That was one of the songs of hers. I picked her songs because the feminists would say, what do you mean, women? Be wise, keep your mouth shut. Don't advertise your man that if you talk about yours, they're going to come up and steal them. Well, excuse me. That's what happens. Well, women don't do that to each other. I go, oh, really? What world are you living in?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right, Exactly.

[Bonnie Raitt]

You're gonna brag on why somebody's such a great lover. And then you're surprised when you're on the road and they take a little taste. Come on.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

But, you know, first of all, that's so funny because you're sort of describing her and her way of being sort of bemused and it sounds like relaxed. It's kind of how you're describing yourself right now to a certain extent. Right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I hope. I hope I reach the Sippy Wallace level of bemusement. Because really, you gotta just sit back and go, it's all. It's out of my control. But I'm gonna try. I mean, there's a different layer. There's layers of political stuff that are on top of being alive now that I don't know whether any amusement would be alcohol. Any. You know.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Bonnie Raitt]

But I'm just saying in her as a young woman, she was just. She was like what I'm aspiring to feel like now, like, okay, she's okay.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

She's okay.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Yeah, she's sitting with it all. She's sitting with it all.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

She can breathe. Deep breath, Breathe deep.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Funny present. Bring it when she needs to, you know.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right.

[Bonnie Raitt]

She didn't seem to care about what people thought about her. All that stuff that. I mean, we're tyrannized by the weight thing, by the, you know, am I pretty enough?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I know, believe me. What about ageism? Oh, yeah, Talk about that, Bonnie.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I think in my folk Americana wing of the music business, we only get more legendary and people respect us more as we get older. I don't see the discrimination that leading ladies got in my dad's business. When Connie Towers and other people turned 50 and other actresses, they were over. And so in my world, I did not face sexism or ageism, but I did face men in the beginning. Not liking to be told that I was self managed, that I was the music director of my albums when I couldn't, you know, that was odd to be told. Told what you were doing not correctly or you'd like somebody to do it differently in the studio when I couldn't play that instrument as well as they could. So, like, who were you died and made you the boss.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

So how did you talk about that? I mean, how did you manage that?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Around that?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Raitt]

You know, first of all, you try to get. Make sure you're only in the room with people that have a lot of respect for you. And most of that time that was the case. There was like one record where I was with a lot of really heavy hitters in New York and I was only 24 and there was an actual producer, Jerry Ragavoy. And so what I would do, oftentimes it would be a partnership. And when something tricky needed to be said, sometimes I would ask him to rephrase it. He'd be like my secretary of State or my.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah, he was the diplomat, he was.

[Bonnie Raitt]

The UN ambassador that went in and said. What she means to say here is, sounds great, it sounds great.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

But did you ever have any self doubt or were. Did you stand pretty firm or sort of a combo? Probably a combo, I would think. Isn't that human?

[Bonnie Raitt]

You know, when it comes to music, my ears tell me when something's working. I cannot lie if it doesn't sound right, if the groove's too rushed or the playing isn't, that track, wasn't it. I have to be completely honest. And so I've. And I trust that implicitly since the beginning. I can tell when it's the right take. And pretty much the people that I pick to work with, they feel the same way. So I haven't had a lot of pushback on that. The pushback sometimes is in the record company where they don't like to see a woman represent themselves. And if you say, how come you don't put enough records in the stores after I just sold out that city, they don't like to hear that from the artists. So they want to have an intermediary and it's usually a guy.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Incredible. Stay put. My conversation with Bonnie Raitt continues in just a moment. Moment. So I want to talk a little bit about the relationship between art and pain, especially in music, you know, because there's this mythology around the sort of the out of control lifestyle and, and pain and elevated artistry as a result of that. And I mean, you've talked about confronting this. When you were talking about getting sober on your sobriety journey, were you afraid that when you got sober that it would be harder to make music or to perform? Or did you have confidence about that? How were you feeling?

[Bonnie Raitt]

It's interesting. I haven't been asked this in a very long time. And it's an interesting. When we started out speaking about the uppercase and lowercase, I was worried that by personally becoming more at peace and serene and well, that I wouldn't. The edge that I had that, the suffering that the, you know, anger and the resentment and the betrayal and I'm singing all of your pain. I'm singing for you. I'm going through it too. And I had this bad relationship and you know, I picked all those relationships so I could be authentic when I sang about. But I'm just saying that what happens when you get out of agony and you're not suffering anymore and you're not pain? What if it doesn't sound as authentic when you're up there trying to play? And in fact, it was just as if the windshield was clearer and I could be more authentically me and feel even stronger. And I watched Stevie Ray Vaughan come out of rehab and he was worried about whether he'd be able to play the same, whether he'd have the same fire. Where's the source of that fire? Fire? Is it suffering and pain and self doubt and all of those even existential questions. And it turns out that the miracle that happens when you can be coming from a different place that's not inauthentic or phony or a crutch of becoming somebody else or putting in chemicals to try to be that other person you can be like the wizard actually came up with the solutions all by himself without being behind there. So that was what was beautiful. And for me, singing. Singing my songs straight because I didn't sing in my shows messed up. I kind of waited till after the show to get high, so it wasn't that different. But being the person that I became when I was more authentically okay with the smaller case me only made the bigger case me stronger, I think, and more compelling and more passionate. And the suffering is right there. I can remember what those pain when I sing I can't make you love me. It's as if I just went through it.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

It's like what that. Like you say, the wizard says you had it all along. It was.

[Bonnie Raitt]

You know, that is what I. That's. I just got goosebumps from that. That's what I think. I want to know. I want to know that I had it all along.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Raitt]

That I don't have to put it on. It's not a role that I'm playing, you know, so it's a beautiful thing to just feel so in your moment. When I'm singing and playing music and it's working. It's like you. When you're doing your thing and it's just perfect. It's the ultimate. It's the ultimate melding of what you were supposed to be doing on this earth this time. And I know what a gift it is, so I'm not going to cheapen it and mess it up.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Right, right, right, right. That's good. That makes me happy to hear. We were talking about it earlier with your dad in hospice. Grief is obviously a subject that comes up a lot on this show because, you know, we have women who have lived a long time, therefore, they've lost important people in their lives. Has music helped you process your grief?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Absolutely. It is probably the longing for what I wish I could have and love or didn't get as a little kid. That's not grief, but it's longing and the loss of so many things in my life that I didn't cherish at the time. Well, I just mean relationships that. Because I'm on the road all the time, I wish I had nurtured more. You know, that's something we all kick ourselves for. But the loss of so many people has been. When I go to sing now, I'm just. I sing Dimming of the Day for my brother Steve. And I wrote this rocker song with my guitar player. I put the words to it called I'm living for the ones who didn't make it, you know, and that helps to get the rockers actually get the energy out as much as the sad songs. But the angel from Montgomery, I mean, wipes me out. I mean, there's so many different songs that have ache in them, and grief is a big part of that because it's been part of my life the last 20 years, especially.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah, right. So it's cathartic that way, right, Bonnie?

[Bonnie Raitt]

Absolutely. And I know the audience is feeling that. And when I sing just like that, I try not to make eye contact with the people in the audience. But the guys in the band will tell me there was people sobbing in the front, you know, or. Yeah, you know, or I've gotten letters from a woman that have said, I've never seen my husband cry. We've been married 40 years. And when you sing, I turn and look at him, and he was crying for I can't make you love me.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, yeah.

[Bonnie Raitt]

So I know that I'm holding a really holy space on those songs, like angel from Montgomery and, you know, the feisty ones, I'm holding that space. And, you know, when you were asking about, do I write from women's point of view? You know? Yeah, I've written a whole lot of songs, you know, meet me halfway, Standing by the same old love, love down to you. There's a whole bunch of tunes, baby, don't you know I'm on your side that are about. Even though we were finished talking about it, I just went, I'm standing up for these positions, these lyrics that I pick. I'm standing up for those people in the audience that need to say that to their partners, and a lot of them are women. So. Yeah, I mean, I take back saying I don't think about gender. I think about me. But because I'm a woman, I'm speaking about meet me halfway.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I mean, that's your default position. That's where you are. And I like that you use the word holy because I think. I think your music is holy.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, thank you. I do. It feels that way when I'm singing it. Thank you for receiving it. It really means a lot.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I do. I totally receive it with the open arms and. Oh, what a. What a dream. What a dream.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Well, can you imagine how it feels for me to be off the road since October and have my first time being me again? Be with you, receiving me with such an. I mean, I knew you were a fan, but not to the extent of soul connection that we have. And so many things line up, you know, and the import on all the important, important.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

The real things. The real things.

[Bonnie Raitt]

And I admire you so much. For you to like me is just thrilling.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

So it's.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Right. It's mute. It's mutual. Thank you.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Thank you. Thank you. Tell me. I'm going to just take this moment to ask a couple of very quick questions that I like to ask the ladies when we're talking on the show. Is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, wow. Try to pick partners that are more your peers than someone that's just feeding what you need and companionship and being okay, you know, see if you can make more of parity in the decision. And that's hard to do when you travel all the time, but that's good advice, you know, But I wished I had. I had. I've had relationships with people that were really. Even on many, many levels, and those are the ones that had a shot. And when I. When I aimed lower and just sort of, like, filled up on fast food for that desire and I didn't. I was holding out for the higher one later. Well, next thing you know, you know, you've. I would have liked to have known. Known that sooner.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Okay, that's really good advice. What are you looking forward to, Bonnie? Oh, gosh.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, peace, Sanity. Coming together. Putting aside our differences and an end to this. A redirect of the road we're on onto one that's more solid and more loving and more compassionate and more just. And may we be at peace. May I be at peace. May I find a way to be effective and I'm looking forward to making a difference. If I can help make that happen. That's the future I want to see.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, that's the perfect way to end this conversation.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Well, I'm a basket caser.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I am too. I him too.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I'm singing. I'm going to go sing on a record by the man who co wrote I Can't make youe Love Me and the wonderful Joe Henry that produced like eight songs I've put out on the last few albums. One of my favorite songwriters and the two of them are collaborating on a record together. And I'm gonna go finally get to pay back to Mike Reed by singing on his. He sings like an angel. I mean, Scott, you know how Michael McDonald's voice is unearthly beautiful. Mike. Mike Reed, he's made several albums of his own. He's just so. But for a former Cincinnati Bengal football player to have come up with the music for I can't make you love me and with Alan Shamlin to come up with that. Don't patronize me.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Don't patronize music.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh my God.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh my God. So you're going to that now.

[Bonnie Raitt]

And I'm gonna take this lump in my throat that you've carefully honed for the last two hours and I'm gonna use that in on this beautiful song that they did together.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, I'm so happy. Oh, I'm so happy. I can't wait to hear it.

[Bonnie Raitt]

I look forward to it. Me too. I can't wait. And just think, now it doesn't exist and in a couple hours it will always exist. All right. It's amazing. All right. I can't wait to see you again and make a difference together and have a blast and laugh and hike and do all that stuff.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Bonnie Raitt]

We are one.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

We are one. Bonnie. Rate the most wonderful, the most authentic.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Julia. Oh, thank you for everything. Thank you, Julia. I love you too.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Love you. Love you.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Be well.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

You too.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Bye.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, my God, I love her. Oh, I'm like lying on the floor. Oh, Bonnie Raitt. Wow. Okay, I gotta get my mom on zoom so I'm can tell her all about this. Hi, mama. You look so nice with your red lipstick.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Oh, thank you.

[C]

I put some red lipstick on. What do you think of it?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I love it. I think it's chic. Thank you.

[C]

Sometimes I used to see old ladies with. With red lips and I couldn't ever decide if I thought it was good or bad.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I'll tell you when it's bad. It's bad when the lipstick's out of bounds. As soon as the lipstick goes out of bounds, that's a. That's a big red flag. Pull over and get that fixed.

[C]

Yeah, but. But this is a lipstick that's very dry. So in other words, have I. Have I done it right?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yes, it looks perfect.

[C]

Okay, good.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Wait, put your mouth closer to the screen. Let me see. Oh, yeah, mom, it's good.

[C]

That good?

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's very good. All right, well, that's all we have time for today.

[C]

So much for activating activism, the good of the planet.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Okay, so I just had a very lengthy conversation with Bonnie Raitt, who is a hero of mine, and I have to tell you that I started the intro and I could feel that I was just going to lose it. I knew I was going to start crying from the second I started to talk to her. And I felt that way through the entire interview. And I actually did cry a number of times talking about her and her music and what she's meant to me, but it was so. Mom, can we talk about trying not to cry? Have you ever been in a position where you were trying not to cry and you couldn't get your shit together and you did, and it was, like, bad. I'm not saying it was bad that I was crying talking to her, but that it was awkward or anything like that?

[C]

Yeah, there was one time when I. I met Carl Sandberg's daughter and I just started to cry. I mean, I was so overwhelmed with being close to somebody that was a daughter of Carl Sandberg that I felt like I was sort of in this state of grace. And I.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

And.

[C]

But it came as a surprise. I mean, I didn't expect it, and I. I couldn't. I couldn't stop that feeling of overwhelmed, sort of both joy and melancholy. I don't know how to explain it, but it was. It was. It in retrospect, it was wonderful to feel that way.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[C]

Feeling the glory of the. Of the world.

[Bonnie Raitt]

Right.

[C]

Letting the glory of the world come in through a person.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Totally.

[C]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Did she. Did she respond? Was she. Was it awkward or was she happy to receive that? That or what?

[C]

Would you recall one of the songs that we sang in those days, because we love folk music, was the Colorado Trail, and Carl Sandberg wrote it, and we had literally been singing it the night before, and. And I started to tell her that. I couldn't tell her. I couldn't say it because it was so. So overwhelming.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Oh, that's so good. That makes me feel better about today.

[C]

I didn't know that Bonnie was a big hero of yours. Tell me about that.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, her music has been a part of my life from being a teenager forward. And she is an unusual singer and songwriter in that she's a woman and she plays blues guitar like nobody's business, and she sings soulfully. Her style of music speaks to me. You know, how you have certain styles that you love. I love her style of musicianship. And she's very. She's just a remarkable person. And we were talking about the holiness of her music, and I think her music is holy. So it was just. Just. It was. It was really intense and just incredibly heartwarming. And I love her to death.

[C]

You know, it's. It's. There are some things that go beyond words and something that happens to us when we're in contact with those people or what they. What they represent to us or what they've said that means something to us. But there are people that are, I guess, in a way, bigger than life or that or who. Who just have opened you up to certain things. I mean, what can you say? It's just, you know, in your. Your body and soul just is like, wow.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I know. I know. Exactly. Exactly. Well, Mommy, I'm going to talk to you again later, very soon, as a matter of fact, because I'm coming to visit you. But thanks for talking now. I love you and.

[C]

And I love you. And don't start crying when you see me. No. Do I. I'd love to be that figure for you.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

You are, Mom. You are.

[C]

Yeah. Much love.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

I love you. I love you. Bye. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok wiser than me. And we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamila Zahra Williams, Alex McKeown and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of new content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts and if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up. There's so much misleading health advice out there, and most of what we're taught about food is wrong. It's actually really hard to cut through the noise, find a trusted source of health information and listen to our our gut. Luckily, our sponsor Zoe makes your gut health their business because they know that gut health is such an important part of overall health. Zoe is the science and nutrition company leading a movement to transform the health of millions. Backed by one of the world's largest microbiome databases and most scientifically advanced at home gut health tests, Zoe gives you proven science whenever you need it. Your Zoe membership starts by testing your gut health so they can give you solutions that are personalized to you. Go to Zoe.com and find out what Zoe membership could do for you. And because you listen to Wiser Than Me, you can use the exclusive code WISER10 to get 10% off membership. As a Zoe member, you'll get an at home test kit and personalized nutrition program to help you make smarter food choices that support your gut. That's z o e.com use code wiser10 at checkout. Trust your gut. Trust Zoe Hey Wiser Than Me Listeners, we want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best and even better. Once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a $100 Visa gift card. The survey is short and sweet and will help us play ads you don't want to skip and keep bringing you content you love. Just go to lemonademedia.com survey lemonadamedia.com survey.