Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Carol Burnett

Summary

Wiser Than Me™ Season 3 Finale: Julia Louis-Dreyfus Chats with Carol Burnett

Episode Title: Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Carol Burnett
Release Date: April 9, 2025

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Introduction

In the season finale of Wiser Than Me™, Julia Louis-Dreyfus sits down with the legendary Carol Burnett for an intimate and heartfelt conversation. This episode delves deep into Carol's illustrious career, her experiences with aging, and the wisdom she's garnered over the decades. The dialogue is interspersed with humorous anecdotes, touching stories, and profound insights, making it a must-listen for fans and newcomers alike.

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Rediscovering the Joy of Laughter

Julia opens the episode by expressing her love for uncontrollable laughter, sharing personal experiences from her time on shows like Seinfeld. She reminisces about the challenges and joys of making people laugh, highlighting moments when laughter took over uncontrollably (00:57).

Julia Louis-Dreyfus ([00:57]): "There’s nothing better than laughing so hard with certain people that I cry."

Carol humorously relates her struggles with maintaining composure during comedic scenes, emphasizing the unpredictable nature of genuine laughter (03:02).

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Celebrating a Comedy Icon: Carol Burnett

Julia warmly welcomes Carol Burnett, lauding her contributions to television comedy and her personal influence on Julia's career. She outlines Carol's achievements, from her Broadway beginnings to her iconic variety show, and recognizes her numerous accolades, including Emmys, a Tony, and a Grammy (06:49).

Julia Louis-Dreyfus ([06:49]): "There is absolutely nobody like Carol. Nobody."

Carol reciprocates the affection, sharing fond memories and mutual respect between them (06:49).

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Aging Gracefully and Embracing Change

The conversation shifts to aging, with Julia inquiring about Carol's perspective on beauty and self-perception as she grows older. Carol candidly discusses her feelings about aging, highlighting the unexpectedness of getting older and the importance of maintaining physical health through activities like walking and yoga (07:19, 57:26).

Carol Burnett ([07:23]): "I feel that... how wonderful, how delightful, how right it is."

Julia shares insights into her own experiences with aging, fostering a relatable and supportive dialogue between the two icons.

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Career Reflections and Mentorship

Carol reflects on her early career, recounting her transition from aspiring journalist to beloved comedian. She shares stories about interviewing movie stars like Joel McCray and her perseverance despite initial rejections (12:16). Carol emphasizes the importance of ambition and resilience, illustrating how she and her team created their own opportunities by producing shows and sending out creative postcards to agents and producers (23:25).

Carol Burnett ([18:02]): "It’s her turn. It's not my turn yet."

The discussion highlights Carol's mentorship under figures like Gary Moore and Sid Caesar, who taught her the value of generosity and camaraderie in show business (30:04).

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Handling Confrontation and Leadership

Julia delves into Carol's leadership style on The Carol Burnett Show, particularly her approach to confrontation. Carol shares a memorable story about addressing a tense moment with Harvey Korman, showcasing her ability to maintain harmony while asserting her expectations (32:28).

Carol Burnett ([34:07]): "I have a contract. You can’t behave this way now."

This anecdote underscores Carol's balance between kindness and firmness, fostering a supportive and creative environment for her cast and crew.

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Personal Tributes and Overcoming Loss

The conversation takes an emotional turn as Julia thanks Carol for her openness about personal struggles, including the challenges Carol faced with her daughter Carrie’s addiction and subsequent recovery. Carol shares the poignant story of Carrie’s passing and the spiritual signs that comforted her during that difficult time (50:03).

Carol Burnett ([50:20]): "There are a few things I'd say no to."

These stories of loss and resilience add depth to the episode, illustrating the strength and vulnerability of both women.

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Maintaining Health and Cognitive Sharpness

Julia expresses admiration for Carol's enduring vitality and sharp mind at 90 years old. They discuss routines that keep Carol mentally and physically fit, such as walking, crossword puzzles, and playing Wordle (58:35, 59:52).

Carol Burnett ([59:40]): "I have crossword puzzles every day. And I Wordle."

Their exchange emphasizes the importance of staying active and engaged to maintain cognitive health, offering listeners practical tips inspired by Carol’s lifestyle.

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Navigating Relationships and Personal Life

Carol shares insights into her long-term marriage, highlighting the importance of humor and mutual support in sustaining a relationship over two decades (62:08). She reflects on meeting her current husband while working on a show and the joy of maintaining a loving partnership (62:19).

Carol Burnett ([62:32]): "As long as you have a sense of humor."

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Philosophy on Endings and Moving Forward

As the episode nears its conclusion, Julia and Carol discuss handling endings—be it the conclusion of a show or personal loss. Carol imparts wisdom on embracing the cyclical nature of life, staying grateful, and looking forward with a positive mindset (47:35).

Carol Burnett ([47:50]): "Here I am 90 years old, I'm healthy. I've had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. But I'm still here."

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Conclusion: A Heartfelt Farewell

The episode wraps up with Carol expressing deep gratitude and mutual admiration. Julia introduces Julia's mother to listen in on their conversation, adding a familial touch to the finale. Julia’s mom shares her own reflections, emphasizing the importance of connection and the enduring impact of their dialogue (68:55).

Julia's Mom ([68:55]): "Everything... the connection was always there."

The episode closes with heartfelt goodbyes, celebrating the wisdom, humor, and enduring legacy of Carol Burnett.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Julia Louis-Dreyfus ([00:57]): "There’s nothing better than laughing so hard with certain people that I cry."
• Carol Burnett ([07:23]): "I feel that... how wonderful, how delightful, how right it is."
• Carol Burnett ([18:02]): "It’s her turn. It's not my turn yet."
• Carol Burnett ([34:07]): "I have a contract. You can’t behave this way now."
• Carol Burnett ([50:03]): "There are a few things I'd say no to."
• Carol Burnett ([58:35]): "I have crossword puzzles every day. And I Wordle."
• Carol Burnett ([62:32]): "As long as you have a sense of humor."
• Carol Burnett ([47:50]): "Here I am 90 years old, I'm healthy. I've had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. But I'm still here."
• Julia's Mom ([68:55]): "Everything... the connection was always there."

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Final Thoughts

This season finale is a beautiful blend of humor, wisdom, and genuine connection between two iconic women in the entertainment industry. Carol Burnett's stories and insights provide invaluable lessons on resilience, leadership, and the joys of laughter. Julia Louis-Dreyfus masterfully guides the conversation, making it both engaging and deeply touching. Whether you're a long-time listener or new to Wiser Than Me™, this episode offers a profound glimpse into the lives of two remarkable women.

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All Hail Old Women!

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Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hi there, it's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We're ready to bring you even more wisdom from the magnificent old women I have had the pleasure of talking to this season. And get a load of this. We've added some fun new items to our Wiser Than Me merch collection. Along with our classic tote bag and kitchen tea towel. We're introducing a new Wiser Than Me branded hardcover notebook and an exclusive partnership with Lingua Franca, a New York City based luxury and sustainable clothing brand. You gotta check out the gorgeous hand embroidered sweatshirts. Cashmere sweaters for you and your dog with wiser than me phrases. Yeah, cashmere for your dog. I did say that. Browse the whole collection and start shopping today by visiting wiser than me shop.com.

[Carol Burnett]

Lemonader.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How much fun is it to laugh? I think laughing is just the greatest little gift from the gods. I don't know if you have this, but I have certain people in my life that I laugh so hard with that I cry. There is nothing better. And you know, I mean, it's not like you can exactly wake up and say, I'm gonna laugh my ass off uncontrollably today. You know, the kind of deep, soul rocking laughter, you can't plan it. It kind of sneaks up on you. And it can be very surprising. You know, the laughing at a funeral kind of laughing, you know, you're not allowed to laugh. Makes it worse. It's a mysterious and it's a truly wonderful thing as a performer. There's this weird sense playing a comic scene. Sometimes it's like you're several people all at once. You're deeply into the scene. Yes. But you're also in your head, sort of controlling the scene. And then you're also outside of it watching the scene. And when it's a comedy and it's going really well, at least for me, that deep kind of laughter can just bubble up and God damn it, it is impossible for me to stop it. I'd crack up. I lose it. I mean, if you've ever seen any of those blooper reels that they have online from Veep or Seinfeld, my contribution is ruining scene after scene with hysterical laughter. And I have to say, sometimes it's horrendous because you can see the other actors not believing that I have just ruined another take. You can see them getting a tad irritated with me, which I guess is understandable. There's one scene, though, on Seinfeld where the great, and I do mean the great Jerry Stiller, who played George's father, of course, he and I are having a kind of a conference interpretation. And he says, what the hell does that mean? And the way he said it, I just lost it.

[Carol Burnett]

My George isn't clever enough to hatch a scheme like this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You got that right.

[Carol Burnett]

The hell does that mean? What the hell does that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Come on. Okay, let's go. Let's go. I mean, I never got through it. We did, like, a million takes. There was never one in which I didn't weep with laughter. Or at the very least, I was, you know, whimpering uncontrollably. I had to turn my head away from camera. I was digging fingernails into my palms. I never got it together. I can't tell you how much fun that was. It's just inexpressible. And it really only happens when things are singing. You know, it's the expression of joy at being on a team that is hitting every shot. That's really the best part, the team part. I'm not a religious person, but if there's a heaven, please let it be that. Please, please. Total, deep, uncontrollable laughter with a great team, with great friends. As I sit here right now, I am so grateful to think that there is gonna be another time, maybe even today, when I am laughing so hard that I can't control it because, you know, Jesus, that's just. That's what it's all about. How wonderful, how delightful, how right it is then that for the last episode of this season of Wiser Than Me, today I get to talk to Carol Burnett. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Okay, this is it. Today I am talking to Carol Burnett. So I'm already crying. It's true. I love you so much. There's just absolutely nobody like Carol. Nobody. There is no way to even measure what she has meant to television comedy, much less what she has meant to women in television comedy, and much less what she has meant to me in television comedy. Side note, everything. Everything. She's done it all. From starring on Broadway nearly seven decades ago in Once Upon a Mattress to her seminal variety show, the Carol Burnett Show. That was a mega super heat hit. I've gotta get My Shit together. I'm falling apart. That was a mega super hit for 11 years on CBS and made her a household name. To great dramatic performances, to the Presidential Medal of. To A billion Emmys, a Tony, a Grammy. Writing a ton of books and bringing untold joy and laughter to millions and millions of people. She has a fascinating, heroic, personal story that she's been brave enough to share. She's just one of the most well known, most beloved performers in the history of entertainment. And, man, is she wiser than me. I am so lucky to say welcome, Carol. Oh, honey, I love you.

[Carol Burnett]

I love you, too. As we said, when I came into the room just now, the last time I saw you, I was thrilled to open the envelope and say. And the Emmy goes, too.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. What an incredible. And to have you do that and to be there with you. I have a picture of you and me and Norman learning and Norman, and it's so cherished. It's such a cherished treasure. So, Carol, are you comfortable if I say your real age?

[Carol Burnett]

Of course, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so what is your real age?

[Carol Burnett]

The big nine zero.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The big nine zero.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And how old do you feel?

[Carol Burnett]

Eleven.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you really?

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah, yeah, I did. I can't wrap my head around it. It's gone so fast, you know. But as I've been saying before, I've got all my parts, I have my hips, I have my knees, and I got my brain. So I'm really fortunate.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You are so fortunate. What has surprised you the most about getting older?

[Carol Burnett]

That I got older.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I feel the same.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I remember when I was growing up, my grandmother was raising me, right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

But she would never tell me how old she was, ever, she said. And she wouldn't tell anybody how old she was. But I was living with her and her mother. My great grandmother?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

In Texas.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

I was about 5. I guess it was. And so I got my great grandmother to tell me. I said, please, you got to tell me how old Nanny is. And she said, oh, she'll kill me if I tell you to. Finally, I got her to tell me. I burst into tears. Oh, I thought, she's got one foot in the grave.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No. How old was she when you heard this?

[Carol Burnett]

52.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Carol Burnett]

Way. Oh, no.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're gonna die.

[Carol Burnett]

52. Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Isn't that funny? Perspective is everything.

[Carol Burnett]

So Sunset Boulevard, right? The movie.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, of course.

[Carol Burnett]

With Gloria Swanson.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

The whole premise was she was over the hill.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

At 50.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, come on.

[Carol Burnett]

Do you remember that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, I don't remember the movie, but I. No, I remember the movie.

[Carol Burnett]

And I remember your incredible parody was she was too old to be in the movies again because she was 50. But I was reading in the New York Times editorial section today.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

That a lot of people are turning 90 and 95 and they're having parties. And one of the people was quoted saying 90 is a new 60.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, God bless that idea. I love that.

[Carol Burnett]

Look at Norman Lear, 100. He's going to be 101.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He's gonna be 101. Yeah, I know.

[Carol Burnett]

And Van Dyke is 97 and Mel Brooks. Mel. Mel's 95 or so. Yeah, I mean 96. Maybe there was something in the water. I don't know. Well, maybe there's something about being in show business.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, maybe there's something. Actually, I wanted to ask you this question. Do you think there's anything about making people laugh and laughing yourself?

[Carol Burnett]

I think so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I do too. I wanted to ask you this. Can you describe what it feels like to you to get a laugh? Carol? What is that feeling?

[Carol Burnett]

Well, I've never been high.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uh huh.

[Carol Burnett]

But I think that's what it's like to just be floating.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it is a floaty thing.

[Carol Burnett]

I was a late, very late bloomer. I was a kind of a nerd in high school. I was very serious with my schoolwork. I was editor of the Hollywood High School newspaper. So I was going to be a journalist.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

And all of that. And it wasn't until I got to UCLA and happened to take a course in acting just for the heck of it. And I picked a scene for the class to do that would be kind of light because the other kids in the class were doing these heavy, dramatic things. And I felt, well, I don't know, I don't want to do that. So I came out and I don't remember what it was, but I had a line or two and they laughed where they should.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And did you mean for it to be funny?

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, nice.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah. Because I wanted it to be light. But it was really a big guffaw, really a huge laugh. And I thought, I like this feeling.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right.

[Carol Burnett]

And all of a sudden I decided I didn't want to be a journalist anymore. I wanted to make people laugh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It just took one good, good joke.

[Carol Burnett]

Good. A joke and a jolt.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. You know, I'm jumping all over the place, but it seems to me I made a list. Somewhere in this, I have paper. I'm surrounded by papers. Because I had the great pleasure of studying up on Carol Burnett, which is hardly an assignment. And many kindnesses have been bestowed upon you, or let us say you have been open to receive them. And I'm very struck by that, looking at your life, starting from your nanny, whom I. I can tell I would have loved her. But I think about your nanny and going to see all these wonderful movies that you saw.

[Carol Burnett]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you mind telling the story about Joel McCrae? Because my mother loved Joel McCray, the most handsome man ever.

[Carol Burnett]

Well, he was a big movie star. You know, a lot of westerns. He did a lot of Western.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

And I was editor of the Hollywood High School newspaper.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well done, you.

[Carol Burnett]

And I thought of, wouldn't it be a great idea if I could interview famous people who went to Hollywood High?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Which is a great idea.

[Carol Burnett]

He was one of them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And so I went to my journalism teacher and I said, do you think that's a good idea, Mr. Thorpe? And he said, well, if you're lucky enough to do. Get it, it's fine. So I was able to track his office.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

Find out his office number. And I called and I got somebody who represented him and said, you know, I'm editor, Hollywood High School News. And they thought it was a cute idea. So, yeah, okay, you can interview him. So I took the bus over to the studio where he was. I was shown it to his office. He was sitting there with his feet up on his desk and he had on cowboy boots and a cowboy hat on. And I sat and interviewed Joel. Joel McCray. And it was so exciting. Then I went back to school and I typed up the interview and we ran it in the school paper.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

Then I got the idea I should interview more people like that. So I had it all set up to interview Lana Turner, who was a huge movie star at the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

But then I would have to cut class to do it because that was the only time I could see her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And. And they wouldn't let me do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I wish you'd cut class.

[Carol Burnett]

I wish I could have. But then years later, get this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

She was a guest on my show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Carol Burnett]

So was Betty Grable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No.

[Carol Burnett]

So was Bing Crosby. People that nanny and I used to go and see on the movie. In the movies, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When did nanny pass?

[Carol Burnett]

She died in. No, she did not get to see my show, but she did see me on Broadway.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

And when I did the Garry Moore Show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah, she saw that. All of those.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And it's Sullivan and those show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, oh, tell already. I've got to hear it.

[Carol Burnett]

I'm doing the Garry Moore Show. Right. And so I'm really doing well, you know, and I'm getting a lot of fan mail and starting to happen. Starting to happen. So she's in California, I'm in New York. She had a very mild, mild heart attack and was in the hospital out here. So I'm talking to my cousin who lived California. She said, well, you're not going to believe this. I said, what? She said, well, yesterday I went to visit Nanny in the hospital, and I. The elevator doors open, and there are all these people lined up in various costumes and stuff. Like the extras and Hollywood movies and stuff.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And they're reading Variety and they're all lined up leading up to Nanny's hospital room door.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Stop it.

[Carol Burnett]

She went, what is going on? And she opens the hospital room door. Nanny is propped up, sitting in bed with. With her arms crossed, you know, like that. And there's a little girl in a tutu dancing with a baton, and her father is in the corner with a harmonica. And this little girl is performing and ends in a split. And Nanny says, very good. Thank you. I'll tell Carol about you. Send in the next one.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No way. Oh, my God.

[Carol Burnett]

She. Because we lived in Hollywood and she knew all of these various people, and the word got out that she was auditioning people, and my cousin said, nanny, what are you? What are you? She said, well, I got bored.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did she ever find anybody good that you met? No, she was.

[Carol Burnett]

It was. She just wanted to be entertained.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, of course.

[Carol Burnett]

She was a con artist. Oh, gosh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I just think that is so funny. So charming. Lucky you to have her. Did you. I'm sure she did. Did you always know you'd make it, Carol? Did she think you would? And did you always know it? Did you feel it in your bones by making it?

[Carol Burnett]

I felt that I could if I went to New York, All I wanted was to be able to put food on the table.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

Clothes on my back and. And pay the rent.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

I did not think about being a headliner at all. That wasn't. It was just. I wanted to perform and do whatever I could.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

So making it would have been to be able to sustain myself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But then when things started to click.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you have a feeling of. What's the word I'm looking? Well, ambition.

[Carol Burnett]

I had ambition. I wanted. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I asked that question because I've asked a couple of other women that I've spoken to on this podcast about that word ambition, because, well, you have to.

[Carol Burnett]

Have the fire in the belly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You do have to have fire in the belly. But sometimes when they say, oh, that woman is ambitious.

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, well, that could sound terrible.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. But that is not fair.

[Carol Burnett]

It's not fair. Not fair.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's not fair.

[Carol Burnett]

But I remember, and I have told this story before because sometimes I get mail or people will ask how. How do you accept a rejection?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, could you get depressed or what? You know, like, because you're gonna. You're going to be rejected.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Even the best of us.

[Carol Burnett]

Even the best. And I remember this one time, I can't remember what I was auditioning for, but it was. It wasn't a big deal, but it narrowed down to me and another girl.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And I thought I had it. I thought I had it, but I didn't. She had it. But what saved me was. And I don't know where this came from, but I'm grateful. I thought, well, you know what? It's her turn.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

It's not my turn yet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And did you immediately leap to that or was there. You didn't feel. Have any feeling of sadness?

[Carol Burnett]

No, it was. I said, thank you, God. I thought, well, that's okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

I'll get my turn someday if I try hard enough again, have the fire in the belly and not let this discourage me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Carol Burnett]

So it's her turn. And eventually. And that's what I tell kids that are starting out. You know, if you really want it and you really work at it, it'll happen.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, I was thinking about that, too, because of your time at the rehearsal club.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And that was where you live when you first went to New York, which was a sort of a boarding house for young women who are trying to make it in show business. Right.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

By the way, that in and of itself is an incredible Hollywood or show business story. Just the fact of that.

[Carol Burnett]

Let me tell you, I'm thinking of doing a treat treatment on it. I think it should be a series.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think it should be, too. And it should be set in that.

[Carol Burnett]

Time period in the 50s.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love that idea. Yeah, I love that idea. Okay, well, if you need the boarding house mother, you're looking at her. Anyway, the. But I love this story that you're. That you told about, and I'll let you tell it. But when you went, you were trying to find an agent, and was it Eddie Voy that you were speaking?

[Carol Burnett]

Eddie Foy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Foy. Pardon me. Foy.

[Carol Burnett]

Eddie Foy Jr.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So tell what happened. You're living in New York.

[Carol Burnett]

I'm living in New York. And Eddie Foy Jr. Was a comedian.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And he was starring in the Pajama Game, which was a major Broadway hit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What year is this, by the way?

[Carol Burnett]

1954.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Carol Burnett]

Around there. Yeah. I just got into New York and I was sitting on my cot at the rehearsal club, right? I had a cot and a dresser and four other roommates in one room. And they were all out on a Saturday night. It was raining. And I remember that when we lived in Hollywood, there was an actor named Jack Shea. And at one point, I remember him, when I was still living there, talking about how he did a movie And Eddie Ford Jr. Was one of the stars. And he said he was really nice. He was. He was the nicest one I've seen in a long time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

So I put on my raincoat, plastic raincoat and galoshes, trudged down to the St. James Theater. And it was about close to 11:00 at night.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

Pouring rain. I looked like Ann Baxter and All About Eve. And I open the stage door and the pops says, the typical. Looks like the stage manager, you know, of the old guy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, of course.

[Carol Burnett]

Hey, kid, what do you do? I, I, he's, he's like, get in here out of the rain. What are you doing here? I said, I'm here to see Eddie. And he said, you know Eddie. And I said, I'm from California.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Anyway, yeah, it wasn't a lie, but.

[Carol Burnett]

No, I hear this clap of thunder. I thought it was. And it was the audience applauding. It was the end of the show, so everybody was taking their bows. I mean, it was so exciting. And I see John Rate, run by and Janice Page, who, they were the star, and Carol Haney, who was also a star. And then here's Eddie Ford Jr. And Pop says, hey, Eddie, this kid wants to see you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

So he said, oh, okay. Yeah, kid, what is it? Well, I can't believe the nerve I had. I said, Mr. Foy, I know Jack Shea. You know, he, he worked with you in a movie. He said, you're real nice and I want to be in show business and I just can't get an agent because they say I have to be in something to get started. And I'm on and on like this. He's, wait a minute, wait a minute. He said, do you sing? I said, I'm loud. He said, do you dance? I said, not really. I can jitterbug. He said, well, maybe I can get you an audition for the chorus. I said, well, I can't read music. He said, okay, you can't dance, you can't read music yet. What? I said, I'm not good enough for the chorus. I think I'd have to have a Featured role.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. That's not fire in your belly. That's balls.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah, but the thing is, he wasn't a trained dancer. He wasn't a trained singer. He couldn't read music, but he was a star. And he said, okay, what's your phone number? He said, well, I'll see what I can do. He called me the next day at the club.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Talk about kindness.

[Carol Burnett]

And he said, this is my agent's name. I told him, you know, you were going to come see him, right? And I took my UCLA scrapbook full of nice reviews, Smart. And he looked through. He said, well, let me know when you're in something. I said, but how? And he said, well, go put on your own show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so then tell what you did.

[Carol Burnett]

Okay. So I went back to the rehearsal club and I called a meeting for all the girls. I said, we're going to put on a show. Yeah, we did. I wrote my own material. Everybody wrote their own material. We sent out penny postcards to every agent and producer in town saying, you're always saying, let us know when you're in some. Well, we're in something. And they came. The producers and directors came to the show, and three of us got agents out of it. But you, you make your own breaks.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you make your own breaks. You pushed forward, you pushed through.

[Carol Burnett]

Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's the most stunning story. And it's a great television show or movie, whatever you want to make it. It really is.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

More with Carol Burnett after the break. Whether you're planning a cozy solo trip, a family holiday, or a long overdue getaway with friends, Airbnb makes traveling effortless and exciting. Imagine booking a gorgeous mountain CA with a fire pit for s'mores, a big porch for late night storytelling, and plenty of space for everyone to stay under one roof. Need extra bedrooms? Check a trip itinerary everyone can access. Done with Airbnb, Staying organized and making memories together has never been easier. Also, if you've ever thought about hosting, it's easier than you might think. While you're away, your home could be an Airbnb. Whether you Airbnb your whole home while you're gone, or just a spare room, you're in control of how you host. Give hosting a try. It could help pay for your next trip, fund a passion project, or simply bring in a little extra cash. See how much your place is [e-mail] host.

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Carol Burnett]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Lucille Ball, right. Gary Moore. Who else? Who else am I? Those are the two main ones, right?

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And if you don't mind, tell me what Gary Moore, what were the big takeaways? What were the. If there were, in fact, pieces of advice they gave you or they modeled for you.

[Carol Burnett]

He was one of the kindest people and most generous people, and he was a big star.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

I remember when I was hired as a second banana on his show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And Derward Kirby was the second banana also. And there would be times when we'd be reading the script on a Monday and we were going to tape on a Friday.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

He might have a joke or a punchline, and he'd look at it and he'd say, you know what? Give this to Carol or give this to Gerwer. They can say it funnier than I can. That's who he was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

It was the Gary Moore show, but he wanted everybody to shine. And I learned that. And that's why my show, I never really called it my show. I called it our show. I wanted Harvey to shine or Vicki or Tim or Lyle. And then I would shine. And we totally, it was a rep company. We totally supported each other. Sid Caesar was that way with Carl Reiner and Imogene and then later Nanette Febre, you know, that you spread it around because it only makes the show better. And I learned that from Gary.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you know, that camaraderie, which is really. You're talking about generosity and camaraderie was really evident as, you know, to lowly me. Audience member watching you as A young girl. And as a teenager watching your show, it was so evident to me that it was fun.

[Carol Burnett]

Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And that you all were having such a good time.

[Carol Burnett]

Isn't that why we get into it in the first place?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you. That's exactly right.

[Carol Burnett]

And then later they get cynical. Then sometimes people get cynical and instead of. Show business is show business.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you know, Totally.

[Carol Burnett]

We want to get in the sandbox and play.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's all play, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And don't take yourself too seriously.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Please don't. Right. Tell about Harvey Corman and. And that moment when you had to let him have it. Do you mind telling that story?

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, Harvey at times could be a little grouchy, but then we could tease him out of it and he'd be. He was always wonderful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, when he was performing, there was. Nobody could touch him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Nobody could touch him.

[Carol Burnett]

So brilliant.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And so this one morning, we were pre taping something and Petula Clark was on as a guest and everything, and Harvey was in his costume and he. He was a little short with her. I don't think he meant to, and I don't remember what it was, but he said something that was not. Not kind. And I could take it if he wanted to be a little curmudgeon with me or something, and our Tim could take him. We'd get him out of it and he'd be fine. But I thought, you don't do this to a guest.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, no.

[Carol Burnett]

So I went up to. I said, harvey, what's wrong? He said, I'm just not happy. I'm sorry. I said, stay after the show tonight. I want to talk to you. So I was a wreck doing the show. He was brilliant as usual. Fun with Petula. I mean, it was all just.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Why you were a wreck. In anticipation of this conversation, I was.

[Carol Burnett]

Going to have to say to him, yeah. Oh, Lord, you know, because I hate confrontation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Carol Burnett]

I hate it. Oh. At one point he said, I'm just not sure I'm happy on this show. That's what he said. And so in the meantime, I called his agent and I said, I'm going to be talking to Harvey, but he wants off the show. I'm going to let him off the show. And he said, well, you can't do these. I said, he can't do this to a guest, you know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And he said, well, I said, I'll talk to you later. So Harvey stayed. Now I'm nervous now. I put on my best Rosalind Russell.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Barbara Stanwyck, you inhabit the character.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah. I said, I understand. You're not happy, so don't come back. You're off the show. And he said, what are you talking. I said, no, you can't be rude. I said, you're off the show. It's okay. You know, I have a contract. I said, well, you know, we'll just talk about that with, you know, the powers that be. But, yeah, you can't behave this way now. He says, well, I. You started to kind of backpedal. Mm. And I said, okay, I'll give you one more chance. You come in to work next week.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And when I see you, I want you to be whistling and skipping down the hall.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Nice.

[Carol Burnett]

So comes Monday, we always had a script reading in my office.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And I. Before it was a time. Then I went to excuse myself to go to the ladies room, and then the elevator door opened. Right. Just before I went into the ladies room, and Harvey comes out. We both stand there looking at each other for a frozen second. He starts going whistling and skipping down the hall. And so I had a plaque made, and I put it on his dressing room door called, Mr. Happy Go Lucky.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's genius.

[Carol Burnett]

And I loved him. I mean, we were. We were always close. I'm making.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, no, no.

[Carol Burnett]

I.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Very rare, you know, rare circumstance.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But let's talk about you as a boss. Yeah. Because you say you. You avoided confrontation. Right. And I'm interested in that. And maybe it's. I don't know, Maybe it's generational. I'm not sure.

[Carol Burnett]

I think so. See, I was married to the producer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

He had produced a Garry Moore show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, Joe. And so he really was the boss. I would come in and I would make suggestions and things like that. But this was the only time I ever took charge. Joe. That he didn't know I was firing Harvey until after.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did you. Like, for example, if there was material that needed punching up or.

[Carol Burnett]

No, I know exactly where you're going with.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How did this scout manage?

[Carol Burnett]

Sid Caesar or Jackie Gleason would say, come on, guys, this is crappy. You gotta fix it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, I don't like it. I couldn't do that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You couldn't.

[Carol Burnett]

What I would do would. I would call the writers down. If we were doing a sketch and it wasn't working, I would. I would say, you know, can you help me out here a little bit? I'm not really feeling this too well, I'm not saying this like a. Like, in other words, help me, as opposed to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So you didn't scold?

[Carol Burnett]

No, I didn't say, come on, you gotta fix this. It stinks. No, no.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But I would argue that that approach that you developed for yourself was certainly a more kind approach, but maybe even a better approach, because it really. You are demanding creativity without demanding it. You're locking arms with these guys and saying, we're on the same team. Can you help me out?

[Carol Burnett]

Did I ever tell you a story about Lucy?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell. Lucky you. Lucky you.

[Carol Burnett]

I'm so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Carol Burnett]

We. She was on my show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

This one week, and it was just before orchestra rehearsals, so there was a dinner break. So we went across the street to the Farmer's Market. There's a little Chinese restaurant, and she's knocking back a couple of whiskey sours.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure.

[Carol Burnett]

And she says, you know, kid called me kid. She was 22 years older, so I was kid.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

She says, you know, it's great you got Joe, you know, to be looking out for you. Looking out for you. When I was married to the Cuban, she said, he did everything Desi did. He took care of the scripts.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

He took care of the camera work. He invented the 3 camera, put them on wheels.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Believe me, I know.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And all of that. Desi did it all. He, like, supervised the costuming, this and that. So she said, all I had to do on a Monday was come in and be crazy, silly Lucy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

Now we got a divorce. Now I'm gonna do the Lucille Ball show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

She says. So I come in, read the script, and she said, it was awful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

She said. And I didn't know what to do. Desi wasn't there to fix it. She. So I called for a break, she said. And I went to my office, and I thought. And I thought. And I thought, I've got to be like Desi. I've got to be strong. And she said. So we went back, I sat down, and in no uncertain terms, I told them. And I was. I became Desi. I just told him what was wrong. Does it kind of fix it? She. She was confrontational. She took another little sip of her whiskey sour. She said, kid, that's when they put the S on the end of my last name.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But I think. I mean, I guess it's a kind of. You took her advice, as it were, and you interpreted it for yourself. And I think that's a great lesson. I'm so glad to hear that. Your thoughtful approach to making a better show, you know, because it's not always perfect. That first pass at a script is Often in need of a lot of work.

[Carol Burnett]

Right, exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

By the way, you know, they shot. It's either Renmar or Rowley Studios where they shot the I Love Lucy. One of those two. I can't remember which one it is. Cause they're both R words. But anyway, that's where we shot the first four episodes of Seinfeld, which I.

[Carol Burnett]

Was always just, oh, wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, exactly. It's really cool to be in the same space. Can you. I know I'm asking a lot of questions about your career, but I do have one other question to ask you, and that's about when you first did Carnegie hall with Julie Andrews. How did that happen? How did that show come to pass?

[Carol Burnett]

Well, Julie was a guest on the Garry Moore show, and we had a finale written for us that we did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And it was the first time I've ever seen a studio audience stand up and give us a standing ovation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my.

[Carol Burnett]

And so the producer offered a special to cbs. Julian Carroll.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

Carnegie Hall. They weren't interested, they said, because they see Carol every week on Gary's show. And only Broadway knows Julie Andrews. She hadn't done a movie yet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Carol Burnett]

And so they didn't think it would be any good. So. Okay. So I met an affiliates luncheon for CBS a few weeks later. And I'm. I'm kind of brave and I'm kidding around with some of the CBS vice presidents. And I said, well, I guess if you don't want Julie and me, we could go over to NBC. They have color. I was terrible. And they kind of laughed, but they still weren't interested. So the luncheon is over. We leave the building, and it's pouring down rain. And they said, we'll wait and help you get a cab, Carol. And I said, oh, don't worry. I said, somebody's going to pull up and give me a lift. I swear to God, Julia, those words were out of my mouth. A beer truck pulled up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Stop it.

[Carol Burnett]

The guide leaned out and said, hey, Carol, you want to live? They hoisted me up into the cab of the beer truck. The guy drove me home to Central Park South. I'm opening the door to my apartment. The phone is ringing. Pick it up. It's the one of the vice presidents. You got your show because why?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Because the beer truck.

[Carol Burnett]

Because the strange man came out, gave me that. They recognized me from Gary. And for some reason, that triggered them to say, you know what? Let's give him the show. And of course, the show was a big hit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's a fantastic Show. I was watching it, and I was watching the intro number that you do. We Belong Together.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Which. I love that number, by the way. The dress that you're wearing and she's wearing. Of course, I'm watching this in black and white, but I have never in my life seen such beautiful gowns. Gorgeous. But let me tell you what I was struck by. So the lyrics in We Belong Together, you open the.

[Carol Burnett]

You're so London.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. I'm so San Antonio. Right. And you say. You open. You start the sketch just sort of before the song, you say, I don't belong here. I don't belong here. And then off you go and you're like, singing the song. And then you come to. We Belong Together. Together.

[Carol Burnett]

Yep.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And the word belong is a word that's feature. I. I just. It stuck with me because then when you sang your last song for the final episode of the Carol Burnett show and you changed the lyric and you sang, I'm so glad we had this time together, just to have a laugh.

[Carol Burnett]

Or sing a song. But that time, we just get started.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But that time you sang. Cause you make me feel like I belong. And I thought, oh, how that's funny.

[Carol Burnett]

That you would come up with that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, it was a nice. But it was such a parenthesis. And it's sort of. I think you offered us an insight into your love of what you do and. And to the feeling that I think we share in performance, which is a feeling of acceptance and belonging. And you tapped into that. And aren't we lucky? Oh, right.

[Carol Burnett]

Very fortunate. Yes. And what's great, too, is. And I see it in you and I know it's in me. We are aware of how fortunate we are. It's not something that we take for granted.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Never. No. Cause it could have been otherwise.

[Carol Burnett]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you had all three of your children during the Carol Burnett show, is that correct?

[Carol Burnett]

I had the first two before we started.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And then you had your last daughter during the run of the show.

[Carol Burnett]

Right. Well, we had, I don't know, too many shows that did what we did. We had a school schedule.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's because a mother was at the helm, if you don't mind my saying.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah. And we had. It was. Well, actually, it was the same way with the Gary Moore Show. We would go to work at. We knew what we were going to do. We'd go to work at. Start at 10 in the morning.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

I could take the kids to school.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Brilliant.

[Carol Burnett]

Go to work. And on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, I'd be out at 3, 10 to 3. But we knew everything. We rehearsed. We all know Thursday was blocking day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And I'd be home every night in time for dinner. Except on Friday when we taped.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

And then we did two shows on Friday and the girls would come to see the dress rehearsal. We would have. We work three weeks, have a week off. We'd always have a week off. At easter, we'd have two weeks off. @ Christmas, we had the summer off.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

All that. So I didn't work more than 20 some odd hours a week. It was almost like a part time job.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Were you able to go home and leave work behind you?

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah, yeah. And the thing too, we taped our show. We do. We'd usually do about an hour 15 because we'd go over. Because I'd do the Q and A's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

We'd be out in about two hours. So the audience, it was like they were watching a Broadway show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

So we. I never, I wanted to do it like a live show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

I never wanted to keep the studio audience waiting because there are. They feed us.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, of course. You need their energy.

[Carol Burnett]

Totally. And so I would make a bet with the stage hands that I could do a skin out change faster than they could move that couch across the room.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I bet you won that because of theater. Yes. Yes. And then the show ended after 11 seasons. And you called that.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Endings are hard.

[Carol Burnett]

They are. But I wanted to. I wanted to leave before they started to flick the lights on and off.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, I hear that. No, I had the same experience both with Seinfeld, with Veep. Yes. But talk about how. Actually I'm really interested to hear this because you've had people in your life, dear people in your life pass and you've had shows end. I'm not likening one with the other, but it is another kind of ending. Right.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So how do you, as somebody who's weathered a lot of that, how do you manage endings?

[Carol Burnett]

What's the alternative?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Right.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, and so everything comes to an end.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, and another thing too is, you know, if you're down, there's always an up. Then even when you're up, there's a down. So expect that's life, you know, and just be as I say. I feel so grateful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, here I am 90 years old, I'm healthy. I've had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

But I'm still here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You are. You're still here.

[Carol Burnett]

To quote the song.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know, but it's It's a stone cold miracle.

[Carol Burnett]

It is. I feel that. And as I say. And I'm aware of it, I'm grateful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I wanted to tell you. Ask. Or I wanted to thank you, actually, because when your daughter Carrie was suffering from addiction and you spoke so openly and honestly about that, and I had a sister who passed from.

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, no, I'm sorry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Very tragically. But I appreciate your honesty because. And your forthrightness about that issue because there can be shame associated with it, and addiction is a bear, as you know. So I just wanted to thank you. Just.

[Carol Burnett]

Well, what was nice. I mean, we went through hell, no question about it. But she got sober when she was 17, and then she had a career. I know she had a very good career starting.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

At one point she was in a movie called Tokyo Pop, which now is a little cult film.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And Marlon Brando called her and wanted to have a meeting with her about something he was thinking about.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And she turned him down.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Why?

[Carol Burnett]

I became a stage mother. I said, are you crazy? And she said, well, I did the movie, but I want to do other things. She had music she wanted to do. She was never interested in making a name for herself. She wanted to write. She eventually wanted to direct. She wanted to sing. She wanted to write music. She had a running role on Fame.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And all. And she was really on her way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you had the glorious experience of working on the play with her. With her.

[Carol Burnett]

That was her idea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Please.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah, that was her idea. Based on my first book.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And she said, let's just do it for fun, Mom. And she wrote. She had a cabin in Colorado. And I wrote in fax scenes, back and forth.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And then my friend. I showed a rough draft to my friend Beverly Sills.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And she read it and she showed it to Hal Prince, the director, of course, and he said, I'd like to direct this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, and. With your daughter.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah. But she didn't live to see. She. She passed away before we got to Chicago, you know, but. Oh, this is weird. I. You know, is there something else happening around us that we don't know and can't see and can't understand?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think so.

[Carol Burnett]

On the plane to Chicago, I said a little prayer to carry because we were breaking it in in Chicago before we go to Broadway. I said, carrie, let me know. I. I had to finish the play.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, gosh.

[Carol Burnett]

Because it was going to be tryouts. I said, let me know you're with me. I need to know, you know that. So got to the hotel, got to my room, and on the coffee table was this huge array of birds of paradise. Carrie had a bird of paradise tattooed on her right shoulder. And there's these flame. And it was from Hal saying, looking forward to seeing you tomorrow at rehearsal. Love, Hal. So I called his room. Hal Prince.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And I said, how did you know? He said, know what? I said that these are her. He said, I didn't. He said, I just said, send up something exotic. So birds of paradise came. Okay. Whoa. So the next night, my husband and I took Hal out to dinner and the maitre d came up with a big bottle of champagne. And on the label it said Louise. Louise was my mother's name and Carrie's middle name. And I thought, whoa, this is. And then Carrie. And I always loved rain.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And rain features in all of your stories.

[Carol Burnett]

I'm going to mention opening night in Chicago. It rained. So I had three signs, beautiful signs. And I felt, okay, Carrie, you're here, you're with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That is just so powerful. That's so touching. Wow. My conversation with Carol Burnett continues after this.

[Carol Burnett]

Foreign.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Carol Burnett]

Oh, interesting, because I always felt very homely as a kid. I had a beautiful cousin who looked like a baby Sharon Stone, you know, and I always felt very plain and I was. And.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, first of all, I'm going to tell you something. You. You weren't.

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, you weren't, Carol. You weren't. I'm. I'm. I know you say this about yourself, but anyway, carry on.

[Carol Burnett]

No, one time I remember I was doing the Garry Moore show and you know the wonderful writer Larry Gilbert. Sure, he was. So at one point he was quoted as saying, Carol Burnett is almost very pretty. And I wrote back, I said, that's almost very nice of him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Good for you. That's a great response. That's not a very kind thing to say.

[Carol Burnett]

No, but it was actually. I thought it was almost very pretty. It's kind of not bad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But how do you feel now?

[Carol Burnett]

Now I think I'm fine for my age.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Are you kidding me?

[Carol Burnett]

No, I'm fine. I mean, you know, I'm happy. I, you know, I don't have a double chin.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, you don't. And you're physically very fit. Do you, do you exercise?

[Carol Burnett]

I walk.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Uhuh.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, you walk. Because you were always, I mean, the fact of.

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, I was always very physical.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah. I love doing physical comedy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Of course, it's so much fun. But what about the work before you do that? I mean, in other words, were. Did you exercise as a younger person?

[Carol Burnett]

At one point I was hooked on yoga.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

For about seven years.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

I did classes and stuff and that. And then I had a little exercise class that I taught at you at CBS during lunch hour.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No kidding.

[Carol Burnett]

For a half hour. Yeah, I should have done it. Look at Jane Fonda was later.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Tell me about it.

[Carol Burnett]

I should have thought about it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're a precursor to Jane Fonda.

[Carol Burnett]

So I did that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what about cognition? Because you're obviously. I mean, give me a break. You're so completely and totally with it. I mean, if you told me you were 35, I'd buy it. No, for real. So what do you attribute that to? Do you do things?

[Carol Burnett]

Well, for about over 30 years?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

35, 40 years. I was going on the road and doing Q and A's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That keeps you sharp. But I mean, do you do anything else to keep your. I mean, are you a reader?

[Carol Burnett]

Do you. We do crossword puzzles every day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

And I Wordle.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I wordle, too. Did you do today?

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah, I got it in two.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You did not.

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, it's because I was lucky with my first word.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What was your first word?

[Carol Burnett]

My first word was crate. C, R, A, T, E. And it was carrot today.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Carol Burnett]

So I had a lot of letters that I could play with.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Now, not to get too deep into the weeds on wordle, but I also play it every day. I love it so much.

[Carol Burnett]

I do, too. I play with Alison Janney.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, goodness. She's a friend.

[Carol Burnett]

And Charlize Theron.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You play with them?

[Carol Burnett]

Not with them. We Wordle.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Back and forth, back and forth. Oh, my God. I'd like to get in on that wordle game. Okay, well, I'm going to give you my cell phone number.

[Carol Burnett]

Okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So do you always use crate as your opening word? That was my question.

[Carol Burnett]

I used to do that a lot. And then sometimes I vary, like, with audio, you know, with all the vowels. You get that. And a Jew.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. I used a Jew for a long time. Now I'm into arise. Oh, I don't know. It's done me well, except today I got carrot and five, not two, so.

[Carol Burnett]

Well, the other day I did a six. I mean, you know, snafu.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Snafu was one of the.

[Carol Burnett]

Snafu was hard.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hard.

[Carol Burnett]

I didn't have good letters for that one.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right.

[Carol Burnett]

Do people know what we're talking about?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, you know, we can edit all of this crap out, but I mean, back. Back to you, if I may. So, as it happens, I've spoken to many different women doing this podcast here who have had three marriages. You're one of those people as well. But you are in the fine company of Isabel Allende, Jane Fonda, Darlene Love. So what's the trick? What is it about the third marriage? How did this. What?

[Carol Burnett]

Well, you gotta get it right. Then also being old enough to, you know, you've been around the block a few times, you know what you want, you know what makes you happy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

You know?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. So you did it.

[Carol Burnett]

I did it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

We've been 21 years now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Congratulations. That's phenomenal. And how did you meet each other?

[Carol Burnett]

We worked together. Oh. He's a musician. Oh. And I was doing a show in Long Beach. And he was the music contractor for the orchestra. And that's how we met. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's nice. How do you keep the romance alive? Is that easy?

[Carol Burnett]

As long as you have a sense of humor.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That applies to everything. But I totally hear you.

[Carol Burnett]

That answers that question.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Done and done.

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So I'm trying to think. What else do I need to talk to you about? I mean, I. I just love you so much, I can barely think. But let me ask you a couple of sort of little brief questions, if I may. Is there something you go back and tell yourself when you were 21?

[Carol Burnett]

No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Nothing.

[Carol Burnett]

I think. No, I don't think if I gave myself some advice, I wouldn't be where I am now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, Carol.

[Carol Burnett]

I haven't thought of that, but I think that might be it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's a good answer, Carol. Yeah, that's a great answer.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, you had to go through.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You had to go through it.

[Carol Burnett]

Dejection again. Certain kind of sorrows. Happiness, sorrow, happiness, so forth. So I don't know what. What would have happened if I would go back and give myself some advice.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Carol Burnett]

You know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. You wouldn't be where you are.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So I think I know the answer to this question, but is there something you would go back and say yes to?

[Carol Burnett]

No, but I think I. There are a few things I'd say no to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, really?

[Carol Burnett]

Certain choices I made in career.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really?

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah. Yeah. That in a way, I look back and think I was foolish in trying to please everybody.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

I was a people pleaser.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Carol Burnett]

Quite a bit. I didn't want to ruffle feathers. And finally, it's nice to know that no can be a complete sentence.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, so this has come up in another interview with Jane Fonda.

[Carol Burnett]

Really?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. She said exactly the same thing.

[Carol Burnett]

No kidding.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. Can you believe it?

[Carol Burnett]

It comes with age.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It comes with age. And it's such a good answer.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah. No, no.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's no. I'm sorry, after all.

[Carol Burnett]

And it's not gonna ruin anybody.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, it's okay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. Let me ask you this. Is there something you want me to know about aging? I'm 62.

[Carol Burnett]

Well, you don't look at. That's what you should know about aging.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I wasn't fishing for a compliment. I really. Is there something you would like me to know as I'm. You know. Jane Fonda talks about her life in three acts. The first, the second and the third act. Right. She's 85.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And so. And when she entered her third act she decided to do a life review and really think about what the intention of her third act would be. But here's the remarkable thing. Here you are, wonderful, beloved Carol Burnett, and you are entering your fourth act. And so I wonder if you could. I wonder what your intention is as you enter this next decade. If you have one. If you don't, that's fine.

[Carol Burnett]

My intention is to keep on trucking, you know, and staying as healthy as I can.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

I'm not anxious to. That. I have to keep working to prove anything that's. I've done that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Carol Burnett]

You know, and. But if something comes along. Yes, that interests me, I'll do it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Carol Burnett]

But I am not worried about. What if nothing comes along? Then I'm fine. I'm okay with it. I've. I did a few things recently, you know, with Better Call Saul and then.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

With amazing, amazing performance.

[Carol Burnett]

They were wonderful to work with.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, please.

[Carol Burnett]

And then I just finished Palm Royale with Kristen Wiig and Allison and Laura Dern.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Carol Burnett]

And that's coming out in. In the fall, I think.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We.

[Carol Burnett]

We don't know yet. Exactly. Yet. And I. I didn't expect to do anything after Better Call Saul, but then this came along, and it's not only a good script, but to work with those women was. I'd be crazy to turn it down. So I had a wonderful time doing that. But if that's it. That's it. I'll be fine. I'll do my crosswords and my wordle.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Breathe in.

[Carol Burnett]

And I have my husband and my cat.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You have your husband, who's younger than you, by the way.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What's that like?

[Carol Burnett]

Lovely. I don't have to take care of him. He could take care of me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, that's nice.

[Carol Burnett]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That is good. Yeah, that's really nice. And, well, I don't know what to say except thank you.

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, thank you, honey.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I. Well, I have.

[Carol Burnett]

You were so sweet, but I have to tell you, I think you are one of the greatest comedic actresses of our time. Oh, Carol, you were just so. So honest and funny and truthful. It all comes out of truth. Thank you. You know, you're not trying too hard. You're not. You just are.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you. That means totally everything coming from you, and I really, honestly, your. What you have done with your life has informed my life more than I could articulate in this conversation.

[Carol Burnett]

Oh, thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So. Thank you, Carol.

[Carol Burnett]

Love you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Love you, too. Thank you for being here.

[Carol Burnett]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Complete.

[Carol Burnett]

Yay.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So for our listeners on Wiser Than Me, normally After we have these remarkable conversations, I call my mom and I tell her about the conversations. But we thought for this final episode we'd have my mom listening in like a fly on the wall to the conversation with Carol. So I don't have to recap. We can just download how stunned we are by the magical quality of Carol Burnett. Is that how you feel, Mom?

[Julia's Mom]

Oh, well, of both of you, I have to say, that ending.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. I couldn't believe it.

[Julia's Mom]

No. You know, parents think their children are right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Julia's Mom]

And they know their children are the best. The best of the best. But when somebody else agrees, it's just like a magical moment. It was so wonderful. So many things she said. I just wanted to say. Oh, of course. I mean, there is so much of truth in this that she said. And so much truth in. In performance and truth in life that just got put on the table. It's overwhelming. I have to say. I am really overwhelmed with this. It was almost like given too big a dose of a truth drug at some point. I never had a truth drug, but you know what I mean? It's just like all of a sudden, everything seemed to roll away and it was just like you were just talking to your. To your soul or something. It was so perfect.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. She's a dear person. I mean, she. She. In terms of her energy.

[Carol Burnett]

Mom.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And her mentation, her physicality. I mean, she's like you, frankly. I mean, she's completely with it.

[Julia's Mom]

Well, I. I was thinking when all the time she was saying her wonderful stories and telling her wonderful tales and being how wonderful she is. And I was thinking to myself, I mean, when people used to be 90, they were in wheelchairs and they were wheeled around. They wheel them out, parties, and then they'd hiccup and then take them back in. That was what they did with old people. And old people now are just out. I mean, she was talking. I was remembering the Carol Burnett show and the cat. She was so right about the whole cast. Meant that they were all so. We loved them so much. And what. I remember when she would do something funny, she would sort of look bewildered a little bit and like that. She would look around to people. So everything. She always had this sense of being with. The connection was always there. And I. That connection was something. And I could feel between you two in this also. And it was there. I think the ability to connect is a. A huge thing. I think maybe particularly in comedy, but in. In life, it's critical. Do you not think?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I do.

[Julia's Mom]

In E.M. forster's novel Howards End. The last words in the novel are only connect. I just think that people that can do that and really care about each other. It's a kind of prayer. It's bigger than you are. It's, you know, that you are just part of the, part of the story. And I, I'm just, I was so touched by this to.

[Carol Burnett]

Ah.

[Julia's Mom]

I can't tell you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Julia's Mom]

And at the beginning when you were just so touched to be with her, just sitting there and.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Please. I thought.

[Julia's Mom]

Yeah, but I was, it was, it was appropriate, I mean, appropriate to be with somebody of that stature and this had that duration and has that kind of skill and gift and talent and durability and to be sitting with her and her sitting there with you and all of your achievements and, and at your age, it's. Well, it was, it was a do. It was a real duo. It was real duo.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love that. What a God. I mean, shit, I need a drink. I'm exhausted. Or bedtime. I need bedtime.

[Julia's Mom]

Well, you, You've earned, You've earned a drink at bedtime. Whatever it is that, that you've earned. Honey, I really, I was, I, I am so happy to have witnessed this. Truly. For a mother to witness her daughter in a situation like this with somebody like Carol Burnett who is, well, who is praising her, who understands your own daughter and the, the unity that happened, well, it's something I will always, always remember. And it's a, it's such a tribute to both of you. And I, I have to say. And, and in my own way, I felt that it was. I mean, I feel connected to the tribute also. I mean, I feel connected in giving you a tribute, but feeling the tribute that those of us that have loved our children have received.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you.

[Julia's Mom]

I, I want to tell you, this was a treasure. I loved it. I loved it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I loved it too. Okay, Mommy. Love you tons. Love you. Love you.

[Julia's Mom]

Love you tons. And, and so, so happy to know I'm going to go out of here that we're women now. Everything's gone to crap here. Oh, here. Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, bye. Goodbye. Love you, mommy.

[Julia's Mom]

Love you. Love you, you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Love you. Bye. Bye. There's More Wiser Than Me with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now. And Apple Podcasts. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfuss. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McGowan and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer. Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton, Rachel Neal is our Senior Director of New Content and our VP of Weekly Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, Paula Kaplan and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yorr and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Charlotte Cohen Sunderland, Will Schlegel and of course my mom, Judith Bowles. Well, we've had a great run, dear listeners, and because this is our last episode of the season and because it takes a lot of people to make a show like this, I wanted to peel back the curtain and quickly thank all of the many wise women who helped make this podcast possible. Our Rockstar marketing team includes Lizzie Breyer, Bowman Sahar Baharlu, Rose Dennis, Amber Girardi Robinson, Lena Martinez, S.K. satterwhite, and Vanessa Ullman. Thanks to our friends in Business development, Dawn Gunderson Taylor and Cece Dong Bryn. And of course, nothing is possible without the folks in operations and finance. Thank you to Jen Brandin, Val Bodurtha and Allie Pinnell and a very special shout out to Rochelle Green and Jackie Danziger. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.

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