Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Catherine O’Hara

Summary

Podcast Summary: Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Episode: Listen Again – Julia Gets Wise with Catherine O’Hara

Date: January 31, 2026
Host: Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Guest: Catherine O’Hara
Podcast by: Lemonada Media

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Episode Overview

This episode reunites two comedic legends—Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Catherine O’Hara—for an intimate, funny, and wistful conversation about comedy, improvisation, aging, the importance of failure, their parallel career trajectories, the culture of comedy institutions, family, marriage, and what it means to age joyfully (and a bit more wisely). There’s also an affectionate cameo by Julia’s 91-year-old mother, Judith, near the end.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Magic of Comedy Collaboration and Flops

• Julia reminisces about her early days in comedy and the joy of creative collaboration—emphasizing that the process, more than the laughs or accolades, is what sticks with her.
  • [03:00] Quote: “It’s not even the laughs. It’s rehearsing to get the laughs…The work, the joyful teamwork.” (Julia Louis-Dreyfus)
• She recounts her excruciatingly awkward SNL audition—with a lesson on how failure and "flop sweat" can haunt but ultimately teach resilience.
  • [06:30] Quote: “That’s when I learned what a flop sweat really is.” (Julia Louis-Dreyfus)

2. Improv Rules for Life—and the Paradox of 'No'

• Julia shares improv's cardinal rule, “Yes, and…,” and how it’s just as vital offstage as on.
  • [06:50] Quote: “All of life is really a great big improv in the end…It’s all about collaborating and paying attention.” (Julia Louis-Dreyfus)
• She notes the empowering lesson that “No is a complete sentence”—two sides of the wisdom coin.

3. Catherine and Julia: Comedy Sisters

• Both started at Second City (Toronto and Chicago, respectively), and both broke out via influential sketch shows—SCTV and SNL.
• Mutual respect for each other’s work and comic fearlessness is palpable.
  • [11:06] Julia introduces Catherine as “the inestimable improv queen...she’s not just funny, she’s fearless.”

4. On Aging & Feeling Young

• Catherine reveals she’s 70; Julia is 63. They reflect on feeling younger than their years suggest.
  • [11:37] Quote: “I don’t want to say young, but I don’t feel old.” (Catherine O’Hara, 12:25)
• Both marvel at being on sets surrounded by much younger people but feeling peer-like due to the playfulness of the work environment.

5. Pope Stories & Archives of Playfulness

• Both share humorous anecdotes involving the Vatican and the Pope—Julia’s sparked by Stephen Colbert’s invitation, Catherine’s as a wedding gift from Tim Burton.
  • [14:38] Catherine describes touring the Vatican’s secret rooms and nearly getting her guide in trouble.
  • [16:25] Julia recounts visiting the Pope’s tailor and seeing David Sedaris buy priest robes.
  • [19:13] Julia tells a David Sedaris joke about priests and child molesters. Both erupt into guilty laughter.
    • Quote: “A good joke is a good joke, yes.” (Catherine O’Hara, 19:56)

6. Early Influences: Gilda Radner & the Art of Failure

• Gilda Radner’s friendship, mentorship, and example were transformative for Catherine.
  • [28:21] Quote: “I really could honestly say I wouldn’t know anything about acting or improv or comedy…I just really imitated her.” (Catherine O’Hara)
• Catherine and Julia both stress the gift of starting out pre-Internet, free to fail and experiment without constant outside judgment.
• Catherine: “How great to be able to fail and to not have strangers watching and commenting.” [31:05]
• Julia notes the “remnant” of not being heard in male-dominated rooms—a legacy of comedy institutions—still affects her confidence when pitching ideas.

7. Sexism, Representation & Getting Credit

• The challenges of being a woman in early comedy ensembles:
  • Catherine talks about letting others (especially men) pitch her ideas; she earlier avoided taking up space.
  • [41:12] “I would start most ideas with ‘sorry, this might not work but…’” (Catherine O’Hara)
• They both recount accepting low pay and lacking agent representation in their early careers:
  • [49:03] Catherine: “We had no representation…These are the days when you didn’t need representation.”
  • [49:17] Julia: “I forgot to ask [about pay]” (on her first Second City job).

8. Improvising On & Offscreen

• Catherine describes the creative freedom and challenges of improvising in Christopher Guest’s films (“Best in Show,” “Waiting for Guffman”).
  • [53:15] “Chris [Guest] would never repeat a thought between takes…just so free thinking.” (Catherine O’Hara)
• Julia shares similar improv-fueled moments on “Veep.”

9. Motherhood, Work/Life Balance & Family

• Both discuss raising two sons and juggling creative careers.
  • [54:55] Catherine prioritized family over frequent work, especially when her children were young.
  • Julia juggled Seinfeld work with motherhood, sometimes bringing her son to set.

10. The Comedy of Life: Sense of Humor as a Gift

• They agree that a sense of humor is a crucial, almost inherited life advantage—especially for relationships and child-rearing.
  • [58:23] Catherine: “It’s a gift you either get given or you don’t. I don’t know how you get it on your own.”
  • Julia: “Of all the relationships I have, that [sense of humor] is top of the list. Or aligned with kindness.” [58:54]

11. Love, Marriage & Family Lessons

• Catherine’s parents were married 56 years, dying within ten months of each other; she reflects on their legacy.
  • Laughter was central—“Making each other laugh is a very sexy thing.” (Catherine O’Hara, 62:08)
• Catherine always thought she’d have a large family (like her parents’ seven kids), but married late and had two.

12. Rapid-Fire Questions & Reflections on Aging

• What would Catherine say to her 21-year-old self? “Good for you, you nervy little thing.” [64:47]
• Anything she’d spend less time on? “Maybe sleeping.” [65:00]
• On offering aging wisdom: “Let you find out for yourself. I don’t want to taint it for you.” [66:39]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A good joke is a good joke.” (Catherine, 19:56)
• “All of life is really a great big improv in the end.” (Julia, 06:50)
• “I don’t want to say young, but I don’t feel old.” (Catherine, 12:25)
• “How great to be able to fail and to not have strangers watching and commenting.” (Catherine, 31:05)
• “Making each other laugh is a very sexy thing.” (Catherine, 62:08)
• “Good for you, you nervy little thing.” (Catherine, 64:47)
• On women apologizing for their ideas:
  Catherine: “Sorry, this might not work, but what about this?” (42:43)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00] — Julia on collaboration and flops
• [11:06] — Introduction to Catherine O’Hara
• [12:00] — Reflections on aging, feeling young
• [14:38] — Vatican & Pope stories
• [19:13] — David Sedaris priest joke
• [28:21] — Gilda Radner’s impact
• [31:05] — Importance of failing pre-Internet
• [41:12] — Women apologizing, pitching ideas
• [49:03] — Inequity in pay & early careers
• [53:15] — Improvising with Chris Guest
• [54:55] — Work/life balance, motherhood
• [58:23] — Sense of humor as a gift
• [62:08] — Lessons from parents’ long marriage
• [64:47] — Advice to younger self
• [65:00] — “Maybe sleeping” as a regret
• [66:39] — On sharing aging wisdom

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Tone & Language

Warm, irreverent, confiding, and affectionate. The conversation is peppered with self-deprecating humor, candid admissions, and gentle teasing. Julia’s and Catherine’s mutual respect and camaraderie are evident, and their willingness to discuss failures (personal and professional) is both bracing and uplifting.

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Closing: Judith Bowles Segment

Julia calls her mom, Judith, for a chat about humor, jokes, and comedic roots. Judith can’t remember a good joke on the spot, but reflects on the importance of surprise and the “twist” in humor. Their exchange is intimate and illustrative of the throughline of humor and connection across generations.

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In Summary

This episode is a master class in resilience, comedic creativity, and the joy of aging unapologetically—an ode to risk-taking, making mistakes, and embracing the wisdom (and humor) that comes with time.

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For fans and newcomers alike, this episode delivers the rare treat of seeing two comedy greats drop their guard and talk shop, family, and what truly matters. All hail old women!

Transcript

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Okay, let's say you buy some apples at the store. You're only going to have a rough idea of where or how they're grown. Maybe you throw the cores in a trash can. You're not thinking about where they're going, or you try not to. All in all, our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. One way I try to reconnect is by using my mill food recycler. Sure, mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill for weeks. It never smells. But this part is just as important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger. And that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens. If I wanted backyard chickens. And I don't. And, well, I don't know, maybe I do now. Maybe mill is transforming me too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, try mill's risk free trial and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer. Hey, it's me, Julia Louis Dreyfuss. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser Than Me. To celebrate your out of this world support for our show, we've been brewing up something special. A Wiser Than Me Mirror Traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to wiser than me shop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. So in my career, I've done mostly comedy and my fondest memories are working with other actors to perfect a bit to like mine a moment for the most comedy possible. Honestly, I don't think about kudos or awards or reviews or paychecks or anything like that. And it's actually, it's not even the laughs. It's rehearsing to get the laughs. There's a scene in a Veep episode, for example, when I'm telling Tony Hale, who plays Gary, that the president is resigning. So my character, Selina Meyer, the Veep, is going to become president. And we're in a bathroom, a dingy bathroom. And in the scene, we're kind of laughing and crying, and then he gets a bloody nose and. Oh, my God. We worked on that scene forever. It was exhausting, but over and over and over, looking for, like, little things we could bring to the scene, you know, like, things that I sort of, in fact, pull out of a bag within the scene. I'm pulling stuff out of a bag, and when I watch it now, that's what I remember. The work, the joyful teamwork that Tony and I did in rehearsal and while shooting. You know, not the laughs per se, but. But when you don't get the laughs. Oh, my goodness. You certainly do remember that. When I was just getting started, I was part of the Practical Theater Company in Chicago. And our show, which was called the Practical theater company's golden 50th anniversary jubilee, which was a joke, of course, because the company was new, hadn't been around very long. It was a giant hit, and I'd never been in a giant hit before. And it was incredibly. We were the toast of the town. The show was selling out, and the laughs we were getting were incredible. It was the culmination of a huge amount of work and joy. Exactly what I was just talking about. So the producers of SNL came to see the show, and they loved it, and they hired all of us to come to New York and. And be a part of SNL Saturday Night Live. Of course, we go to New York. And the SNL producers really wanted the current cast and writers to see what they had seen in Chicago. So they rented this very cool Off Broadway house, and they brought in a big, enthusiastic audience, and they had us recreate the whole hit show. Oh, wait a minute. Sorry. No, they didn't do that at all. Uh, they had us, four complete and total unknowns perform the first act of the show. Oh, my God. In the SNL office under fluorescent lights in the middle of the day, in front of 20 very cynical, unfriendly SNL cast members and writers who already hated us because a bunch of their best friends had just been fired to make room for us. Okay? We never had a chance. Sketches that had killed in Chicago died a terrible, terrible death that day. It was excruciating. And that's when I learned what a flop sweat really is. I mean, I can feel it now as I'm recounting this. And I think that humiliation influenced our whole SNL experience for the next couple of years, to tell you the truth. I mean, if I could do it all over again. Well, I can't do it all over again, can I? I mean, you live, you learn and whatever. I've learned a lot since that cringy day in a carpeted office on the 17th floor of 30 Rock. But one of the most enduring lessons that I have learned on Wiser Than Me is that there are so many ways to move forward confidently and positively, even in the face of great challenges. And it reminds me of one of my favorite improv less. Yes. And that is the great Viola Spolin's first rule of improv. You always say yes. And in an improv. So, like, for example, if somebody comes into a scene and says, hi, I'm an astronaut, you don't say, no, you're not an astronaut. You say, yes. And I'm so looking forward to hearing your astronaut poetry tonight or whatever. Yes. And that is so applicable to life off the stage as well as on it. You know, really, honestly, all of life is really a great big improv in the end. You know, relationships and work situations and, I mean, it's all about collaborating and paying attention and accepting what others bring to the party and building on that and of course, making big choices. It's just a great thing. And paradoxically, another great thing I've learned from the women on this show is that no is a complete sentence. Weird how that too is, in the end, a positive, empowering kind of truth. Two sides of a wiser than me coin. And I have to say, speaking of wiser than me, I really, really want you to know how happy I am to have you nice audience, people listening to and enjoying these conversations, saying, yes, and to our show. I'm so grateful. I really am. So thank you, dear listeners, and yes, and right back at you for. For real. How apropos then, that today we are talking to the inestimable improv queen, Catherine o'.

[Judith Bowles]

Hara.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I'm Julia Louis Dreyfuss, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I give schooled by women who are wiser than me. There's nothing like improvisation. I love it. In my experience, the best improvisers are pretty much always the best listeners. That's the key to any great performance, comedy or drama listening. Our guest today is one of the finest listeners in the business, and to me that means one of the finest actors. Catherine o' Hara and I share similar origin stories. She started on stage at Second City Toronto. I started on stage at Second City Chicago. Although it was a touring company. She went on to Second City TV. I went on to SNL. She's been with her husband 36 years, I've been married 37, and we both have two perfect boys. We've known each other for decades through mutual friends, but we've never actually gotten to work together, God damn it. And I vow to change that. Catherine's TV career took off alongside fellow SCTV comedy legends John Candy, Eugene Levy, Joe Flaherty, Andrea Martin, Dave Thomas, and Harold Ramis. This was pretty much the exact same time that SNL was exploding here in the States. Sctv, frankly, was always sort of the cool Canadian stepsister to Saturday Night Live. It was weirder. It was deeper, hipper for sure. More daring. And for me, the heart of the show was always Catherine o'. Hara. She's not just funny, she's fearless, and that's an absolute joy to watch. She followed up sctv, working on tons of TV shows, often with her SCTV pals, and even dabbled in fancy director land with Marty Scorsese in after hours and then came home alone. And just like that, she was the blockbuster mom, which I rewatched last night, by the way. It holds up completely. And then Christopher Guest started to make his improvised movies, starting with Waiting for Guffman and best in show. And she's basically stolen every scene in every one of them. And I haven't even mentioned her Emmy award winning turn on Schitt's Creek. And I'm not gonna go through every credit and every award because holy crap, Catherine o' Hara likes to work, but you get the idea. She's unbelievably funny. Truth. If you're watching something and Catherine o' Hara comes onto the screen, you just know that every time, she's gonna score every time. Fellow SCTV alum Marty Short said of Katherine, she is one of the most loyal, wise human beings I've ever known. Which, of course, makes her perfect for our little podcast here. I couldn't be more excited to welcome to the show an actor, mother, comedy legend, and woman who is truly wiser than me. The exquisite Catherine o'. Hara. Hi, Cather.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, my lord. Julia, that's too much. Thank you too much.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, it's not too much.

[Catherine O'Hara]

It's over now, right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, it's over. That's the end of the podcast. Katherine, thank you. Thank you so much for joining.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I love that. I loved hearing all those nice things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Well, goodbye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, they're true. So are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

[Catherine O'Hara]

If you tell yours.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, I will.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I'm 70.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I'm 63.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, you, baby.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I know. I'm just a wee thing.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You are a dear little thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And how old do you feel, really? How old do you feel? I don't know. Well, I feel what I am.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I don't know. Who knows what anything's supposed to feel like?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, I know, but when you hit 70.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Which is a big marker, did you think like, wow, this isn't what I thought 70 feels like? And the only reason I say that is because that was true for me. When I hit the markers, Even starting with 30, I always remember, like, 30. It sounded so adult. And I was like, I don't feel like that. You know?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Well, that's what I'm saying. You never really feel like you. Like you've been told you're supposed to feel or the way you imagine others feel.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, right.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I feel. I don't want to say young, but I don't feel old.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, that's a good answer, that. Yeah. I feel the same. I feel the same.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Why? I just feel like I'm. I'm lucky to be alive, for sure. Yeah. And I don't know. I don't know what it's supposed to feel like.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

What do you think is the best part about being your age, though? Is there a best part?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, boy. Being alive. And I don't think of my age, except sometimes I'll be around a bunch of younger people, you know, working. Sometimes you work. In my case, you work. And you're often the oldest person on set. Yeah. And I don't even think of the age. But if I. I would say, oh, we're all the same age, even though we're not. But we're all human beings relating. We're all, you know, on a set, we're all working on a show. We're all, you know, serving the story and having fun and, you know, working together. And then I go. And sometimes I think, wow, at best, maybe they look at me as, like some adorable old lady. I'm saying at best.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, I know, at best. But it's funny that you say that, because as you were saying, I'm thinking, well, yeah, it makes sense, because particularly in our business, you're on set with other actors, you're playing. It's playful. God willing, it's a playful environment. Right. And so sort of age drops off in that environment.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But I've had the same experience of being on set and thinking, wow, what the fuck? Like, I just did this Marvel movie. And, well, first of all, I don't know any of the references Anybody's making. To the Marvel Universe number one. But also, like, culturally. And everybody is my. My children's age. Like, almost everyone on set.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Wow. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

That is Funky town. This doesn't have to do with anything at all. But we both. Both have. It doesn't. It's not really even appropriate for this podcast, but who cares? We both have Pope stories. Because I heard you got in trouble. Yes, I heard you. You got in trouble at the Vatican and you got yelled at by a priest. Can you talk about that? What happened? What did you do? Et cetera. What happened?

[Catherine O'Hara]

This is so. It's so stupid to even tell it, but I will anyway. I met my husband, Bo Welch. He was a production designer on the first Beetlejuice movie.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes.

[Catherine O'Hara]

And Tim Burton basically made him ask me out because I was grousing to Tim that this guy was talking to me every day, never asking me out. And so Tim said, let me see what I can do. He did talk to him, and Beau begrudgingly asked me out. And now we're still married, thank goodness. But Tim also gave us an amazing wedding gift, which was a private tour at the Vatican.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, it was a wedding gift?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Only Tim Burton would give a present like that. That's amazing.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Somebody had given him the gift, and he'd been blown away, so he passed it on, which is really wonderful and generous. So this lovely priest, or cardinal took us all around the Vatican, and he was wild. He took us everywhere, including, I swear, the Pope's closet. He took us on the elevator that the Pope takes down to the St. Peter's Basilica to his Mass. He took us in this beautiful little museum, private museum, full of. In glass cases, all the gifts given to the Vatican from all over the world. Wow. Crowns and jeweled. I don't know, whatever. And he let us open the case and take out crowns and pretend to be putting them in my husband's backpack. And we're laughing, but when we were where we thought was the Pope's closet, then another priest came by. It's our guide that got yelled at, not us, actually. Although we were part of it, for sure. Cause we're all in there laughing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Got it.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Not a big closet. It was a small closet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, it's just probably the same thing over and over again, isn't it?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, it's not that mature idea, sir. What happens to the clothes he used to wear? What's your Pope's story?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, my Pope story is that I get an email from Stephen Colbert that says the Pope wants to meet a Bunch of people in comedy. Are you available to go? So the first thing I do is I text Stephen because I think maybe this is like he's been hacked or something. Yeah, for real. And he said, no, no, that's real.

[Catherine O'Hara]

He didn't ask for money, though.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, he didn't ask for money. But that could have been in the second email, so I was being careful. Anyway, it's true. Long story short, bunch of us end up at the Vatican meeting with the Pope, who wanted to have. Make a speech about the importance of laughter and comedy and the spirituality of that and, you know. Which is very, very, very nice. I was totally flabbergasted at the pomp of it and the. I mean, it feels very. And I don't mean this as disrespectfully as it might sound, but it feels very wizard of Ozzy. You know what I mean? Well, you know, with the guys, and they've got. They've got their costumes that these. What are they called? The Swiss Guard Come walking in with the stripes and the feathers on top of their head.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And you expect them to sing O, E, O. You know. You know, if you're grading on a Pope curve. This Pope is a. Is a good guy.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Yeah, he is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But I highlight grading on a Pope curve.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I knew that event happened, and I was very jealous.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

You should have been there. It's silly that you weren't.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Come on. I'm Catholic.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I know.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Did you get to speak with him?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I shook his hand.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Wait, you have a picture.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, shit. Where did I put that fucking picture? Anyway, whatever. I shook his hand and I said, God bless you. And he said, God bless you, too.

[Catherine O'Hara]

That's great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

So that was nice. And then. But the real kicker was David Sedaris was there. Do you know David Sedaris?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Okay.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I don't know him personally, but of course I know him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes. Okay. So we're talking afterwards, and David says that he's gonna go to the Pope's store. There's that store in Rome that sells all the Pope clothing. And actually, I was gonna go there, too. Cause you can get, like, good red Pope socks and stuff. And I said, okay, I'm gonna go with you. And we ended up going to that store together. And he bought all of these robes. All of these, like, priestly robes with the red sashes and all the rest of it. Because, you know. Well, he likes to dress in costume a lot. And he said he thought wear this to do his work.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I'm amazed that that is Available? Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I'm amazed I didn't know that.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Isn't that. What's that called? Appropriation?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes. He wrote about it in the New Yorker. And I'll send you the story. Cause he wrote a whole story about going to the pope. It's very good.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Excellent.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But there's a joke at the top of it that I totally credit him with. It's not my joke, but it's incredible. And it goes like this. Two priests were driving a car together down a highway, and they get pulled over by a cop. And the cop comes up to the window, says, roll down your window. And he says, we're looking for two child molesters. And the priests look at each other and they look back at him and they go, we'll do it.

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, no, I'm sorry. I know it's terrible myself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I know. Bless yourself. I'm sorry. I'm telling you, this wonderful, good Catholic girl. Apologies.

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, don't apologize. A good joke is a good joke.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

A good joke is a good joke, yes. Speaking of Catholicism, I read your first role was playing the virgin Mary in a nativity play.

[Catherine O'Hara]

That's really sad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, it's a starring part.

[Catherine O'Hara]

It's sad. No, it was in a thing at the park up the street from our house.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, well, we have to all start somewhere. What were they gonna do, Put you on stage on Broadway at however old you were? I mean, how did you. Do you remember it all?

[Catherine O'Hara]

I remember. Cause my mom would bring it up every once in a while. Was that I lost her lovely blue house coat.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, your mom let you give it to the costume department and you lost it?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Baby blue. Yeah. See, isn't that a cute? Hilarious story.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It's hilarious.

[Catherine O'Hara]

So sad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But you know what this reminds me of? What was I watching that you were doing? Oh, it was waiting for Guffman. And you and Fred were doing a scene and you did something so brilliant where you were mouthing his lines. Do you remember that? And it reminded me of watching kids in a school play.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Right.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Because there's always somebody who knows the entire thing backwards and forwards. And in fact, I remember once we went to some play at school in my son Henry's class, I think. And one kid on stage, when he didn't have a line, he would turn and start to talk to his friends who were watching in the audience.

[Catherine O'Hara]

No.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah. He had no sense of keeping the thing going. If he didn't have a line, he didn't need to worry about the show.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Wow. Isn't that Incredible. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, it was sweet.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You've worked with people like that, haven't you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I actually have.

[Catherine O'Hara]

If they're not talking, there's nothing going on, right? There's nothing worth seeing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Completely talk about not listening.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I love that. That's really good.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, it's funny. Much more with Catherine o' Hara after this quick little break. Don't go anywhere. Hey prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. If you're like the wise women on this podcast, you're really, really busy. That's why MyDEA makes appliances that handle things while you move on with your life. Like the One Touch Autofill French door fridge with a water dispenser that fills your cup perfectly so you don't have to sit there and supervise water. Every Midea appliance is made for people who already do a lot, and especially for those who notice when things aren't working and quietly fix them anyway. You've learned to handle it all, but sometimes even the best multitasking can't cover for things that don't work. That's why MyDEA appliances are dependable, efficient, no guesswork appliances that do their part. They let you focus on the things only you can do without adding to the mental load. There's also a dishwasher with a three stage total drying system that opens on its own when it's done. That is some Jetsons level convenience. Also, they have this incredible auto sensing wash machine that adjusts the water level to your exact load and arrange with five burners, three racks and more possibilities than your group chat dinner plans. So go do the sensible thing. Go to mydea.com and let MyDEA handle the small stuff since you're clearly handling everything else. Visit MyDEA to see how you can bring home a little wow today when there's a job to be done, the wisest choice you can make is finding the right people with the right skills to make it happen. If you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other sites. Give your job the best chance to be seen with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Sponsored Jobs boosts your post for quality candidates so you can reach the exact people you want and it makes a big difference. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 90% more likely to report a higher than non sponsored jobs because you reach a bigger pool of quality candidates. Plus, with Indeed Sponsored Jobs, you only pay for results. No monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. Just a boost whenever you need to find quality talent Fast. Join the 1.6 million companies that sponsor their jobs with Indeed. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it [e-mail] wiser just go to indeed.com wiser right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com wiser terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with Indeed. Imagine you finally have a free day out on the town. You're about to enjoy a nice lunch when you get the alert that a window has been broken at home and you're miles away. ADT security systems are built for those moments and help keep your home safer with 247 monitoring, no one wants to feel unsafe at home, and with adt, you won't. Their systems are professionally installed by trained technicians, so you can trust them to watch out for your home. From day one, ADT has the most company operated monitoring centers in the industry, and the ADT plus app lets you keep tabs on your home from virtually anywhere. Don't wait to prepare your home for an emergency. When every second Counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT ASAP. There's no denying it. Your hair changes as you age, and not always in the best ways. Hair that was once lush, smooth and shiny is now dry, frizzy and flat. It's a fact of life. That's where K18 hair comes in. It's not a hair care company, it's a hair science company. They couldn't find real lasting hair repair, so they invented it. Seriously, it's trademarked in everything. Their patented K18 peptide Tide perfectly fits into the broken parts of your hair structure, making it strong and healthy again. This stuff works fast too. The K18 Leave In Molecular Hair Mask reverses damage in four minutes by working deep within your hair's innermost layers. Whatever you've put your hair through, heat, color, chemicals, this mask delivers immediate and lasting results. They've got everything you need shampoo, conditioner, volume, spray, hair oil, even adorable minis for when you're at the gym or on the go. It's molecular, it's science driven, and it's delivering soft, strong, bouncy hair for Everyone who tries it. Seriously. You'll flip for hair that feels like new. Shop K18 mask at Sephora or get 10% off your first order at K18hair.com with code wiser. That's K18hair.com and use the code wiser. I know you were long term friends with incredible Gilda Radner.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And you met her when you were young. Cause she was dating your brother, which is extraordinary, by the way. I had. When I was growing up, I had a picture of her on the bulletin board of my teenage bedroom, just as an FYI. Did you?

[Catherine O'Hara]

I did. Aw. Did you ever get to meet her?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, sorry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I know. What did being close to her teach you?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Well, now that I think of it, I think she was just a great example of doing her work and being so lovely and talented and hilarious and also being just a lovely person.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Just being a kind person.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Like there was no. Yeah, that it was. It was two different worlds, but it was also just one beautiful person that she was. It was just. She was consistent. Consistent. Like she was just herself on stage. Even though she did a ton of characters and totally herself. I'm not explaining it right. What are you doing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Are you lack. Are you asking ChatGPT where? No.

[Catherine O'Hara]

For help?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No. Because you looked away like you're going onto, like a computer to look up something nice to say about Gilda Radner.

[Catherine O'Hara]

That'd be great. Nice thoughts on Gilda. Oh, wait, I have these memorized. I thought, what happened? No. And then when I got in Second City, I got in because she left. I was understudy to her and Rosemary Radcliffe, the other woman in the cast at the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Wow.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. And Gilda went on to do National Lampoon, which led to her doing Saturday Night Live. No. So I only knew her for that period. But I really could honestly say I wouldn't know anything about acting or improv or comedy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I don't think, without watching her or

[Catherine O'Hara]

have all the opportunities. No. Without knowing her at all. I just really imitated her. When I understudied her, all I did was try to imitate her before I could develop my own characters. You know, I got out of high school. I shouldn't even admit this. I didn't go to college. Unless you call Second City University of Comedy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Why can't you?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Well, I'm going to. Forever.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah.

[Catherine O'Hara]

To my kids, anyway.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah.

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, I got out of high school and. And she was in our lives. And then she went and did Second City and I followed her there and got to understudy or I wouldn't have known about any of it. I wouldn't. I didn't. You know, this is pre Internet, and I'm so glad I got to have this experience. Pre Internet. Yeah. And to be that blindly optimistic

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

about

[Catherine O'Hara]

thinking, hey, why not just try this? There's no one else in the world except these few people in Toronto who are trying to do this, so why can't I try it too?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

That's kind of incredible. So you didn't have any feeling of. Well, I mean, of course, if you're trying something, it could fail miserably, but you have to be willing to take that risk. And if it does, then you do it again and you try something else, and hopefully it doesn't fail. Right.

[Catherine O'Hara]

But how great. But how great to be able to fail?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, you have to be able to

[Catherine O'Hara]

fail and to not have strangers watching and commenting.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, yes, that's the Internet.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I feel bad. I feel bad for people starting out now because it just takes away your ability to take risks, to take risk, to try things.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes. Your sense of confidence, your sense of abandonment.

[Catherine O'Hara]

And when you're starting out, to have to lock into something so quickly instead of trying, you know, a thousand different things. Why not? Why not? You know, you can't. I don't think you can have that same experimentation if you're sending it out to the world.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

So you felt that experimentation doing Second City. You felt that abandon there for sure. Right?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, I don't. I didn't even think about it. That was the way it was. That's. That's isn't that way. It was when you got in.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Mm. Mm. But I was in the touring. Well, wait a minute. Let me be clear. I was in the touring company, so we were only doing other people's material.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Right, Right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It was obviously very male centric, but everything is. It seems.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And we can get into that. But there were. It was not a particularly. My group was not a particularly happy group of people. And there were a lot of drugs and there was a lot of drinking. Wow.

[Catherine O'Hara]

What year was that when you got in? 80.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

81 in that area. However, I had the experience that you're talking about doing theater with another theater group, practical theater group, which is in Chicago. And that was my husband's theater group then. Boyfriend, or not even actually, anyway, whatever. And so. But I had that feeling of like, wait, this might be funny. Let's try this. Let's see if that. And, you know, it was like a playful thing without inhibition, which is a really. Like a gift. The gift of all gifts. Right.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Isn't it the best? And what a great age. I've often thought of this. What a great age to be in an ensemble. Cause you, you know, in your early 20s. Yes, it's a great age to be at because you look at the world, you just think you know more than. And you look at the world and you say, ah, if I had that power, I would do that better. If I had that job, I would do that better. You know, you just have a great natural cockiness at that age. And you're oblivious, really. That's why. And that's what I would miss for people about the Internet, that you could be oblivious and just think, I'm gonna try this. Why not me?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

That's such a good point.

[Catherine O'Hara]

And that cockiness felt that way. Yeah, that cockiness at that age. But you're not really. You don't really have it together. So you surround yourself, if you're lucky, with really good, talented people who are all kind of at the same stage. Right. Like nervy, cocky, but with talent. So you're lifting each other up, you know, and challenging each other. But. So it's a great mix of great confidence and oh, my God, take care of me. Oh, I'm following you. You know, give me something to work with here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, it's great confidence and it's a team sport.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Hey, Kathryn, do you remember any of the improv games you used to play back then?

[Catherine O'Hara]

There was one Joe Flaherty had us do. Remember when I first got in the cast, or maybe I was still understood, but I got to hang out with all of them at rehearsal and Joe had us play a game where you had to do. Had to imitate a standup comic at the time, but you had to do it instantly, like improvise. Improvise a stand up act. But you didn't have to have the jokes, you just had to have the rhythm of the jokes. So I don't know if they would give us a name, but they would definitely give us a topic. And at the time, there was this comic, Toady Fields, who would be on talk shows. You don't remember? Okay, of course.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, I do.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I remember because I have made my family play this at the cottage. Everybody was so good at it. Oh, my Lord, they were all so good at it. I was not particularly good at it, but I do remember what I did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

What did you do?

[Catherine O'Hara]

I tried to do Tony Fields, but I said, I, I. It's like I met a fella and I asked him if we could go out. I said, how about you go out Friday? He said, no, I'm busy. I said, how about you go out Saturday? No, I'm busy. How about you go out with me Sunday? No, I'm busy. I couldn't get a date. It's like no joke. The rhythm of a joke. I'm sorry. I didn't even do it right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, you did.

[Catherine O'Hara]

It's perfect.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

This is such a good game. This is such a good game.

[Catherine O'Hara]

We gave my nephew roller skating and George Carlin and he used the mic so beautifully about Swish. What's it feel like? Where are you going? You know, all like my sister Margaret, her name was Scabies. Scabies, Lice or something. She was like, you know, a heady kind of comic, you know, with her notepad. Just kind of what's on my mind right now. I'm going to be really easy about it. This is new comedy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, it's sort of like. Remember Stephen Wright?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yes, yes. Love him. Still quote him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It's a big world.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I wouldn't want to paint it right open. 24 hours. I knocked on, the door was closed, I knocked some more. Guy came to the door, says, 24 hours, not in a row.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Do you still.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Sorry, I'm gonna ask you a question, please.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes, sure.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Do you still draw on everything you learned at Second City? Oh, maybe not. Maybe more your other company, Practical theater company?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, maybe, yeah. Do you feel like you draw still on what you learned there?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, I draw on that and I draw, but it's not one specific place. I mean, there's a lot to be said for experience. And I draw on all of it, you know, for real. I mean, I draw on being live on snl, performing live. That schedule, which was grueling. You would go in on a Monday, you'd meet whoever is hosting, and then Monday and Tuesday, writers, actors and actor writers would stay up all night. It was a very sort of drug driven schedule. It was sort of. And it's still like that. I don't mean, I don't mean to suggest they're doing drugs, but it was sort of driven by late night partying. But at any rate, everybody's staying up late writing sketches. Writing sketches. And then Wednesday you would have a table read in which you would read all the sketches. And then after the table read, the producers would decide what's going in the show and then you would rehearse that Thursday, Friday, and then Saturday you're live. And so what was the schedule for you guys at sctv?

[Catherine O'Hara]

We would start writing, I guess, I don't know, months before shooting. We would just sort of continue writing and shooting all along. Like I've heard at snl, you know, if a scene doesn't make it into the show, it's more than.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It's dead.

[Catherine O'Hara]

More than not. It's. Yeah, it's dead. Totally dead. It's crazy. We would rework stuff and over and over, you know, we never gave up on a good idea, that what we thought was a good idea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Wow.

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, it was a whole different. We never had an audience, so we were just trying to make each other laugh. Yeah, it was way a thousand times more relaxed. Yeah. Oh, that's incredible. We had no sense of anybody watching the show until, you know, years later, people would come and talk to us about it. You know, my dad thought I was just making a big mistake and, you know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, he did?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Why?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

What did he say?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Because he was nervous, you know, he was nervous for me. He was nervous for all of us. It was seven kids nervous for all of us about what we're gonna do with our lives. And I said I wanted to be act. And it didn't. I don't think it made sense until people at work said they saw me on sctv. Then it was like, oh, okay, she's safe, it's okay. It's all good. But, yeah, no, very relaxed. I hosted Saturday Night Live twice and was shocked at how many good pieces at that read through didn't make it to show. Yeah, like the stuff that I thought was funny. I guess I have the wrong taste. Well, I mean, good stuff made it, but so much good material that would get laughs. And it just. It's gone then, isn't it?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It's dead. It's gone. It's totally dead. I mean, occasionally something will come back, but I don't know, that's the culture of the place. But I mean, it stands to reason that good things get lost because you read so many sketches. I mean, I mean, it goes on for hours and hours. It's a pile, you know, two feet high of sketches.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

So. But, you know, it's funny. Cause when I went back to host, I've hosted a couple times, and it was hugely. It was like going back to high school and getting to redo things.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Do you know what I mean? Ooh, nice.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, it was because I knew how the show worked. I knew what I needed to do to succeed on the show. And the schedule hadn't changed since I was there in the 80s. It was the exact same the only thing that was different, it was obviously a different cast. Definitely more female friendly and different producers.

[Catherine O'Hara]

And they wanted to find material for you to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes. As opposed to. She can be the waitress.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Your coffee.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Your coffee, Mr. Gumby.

[Catherine O'Hara]

And Andrea and Casser could come in as the wives, or they'd come in as the waitresses, or they'd come in as a.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Tell me about it. What about. I read that you were. When I guess it was at sctv that you would tell your ideas to Dave Thomas and he would pitch them. Is this true? Yes, it is sad.

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, he wouldn't pitch them on my behalf. He would just pitch them if it was a good idea.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, but you gave him permission to do that?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Well, it was unspoken, I guess I would just say, hey, what if we did? And they'd say, hey, what if others had? And if they left? He'd just go along with. I go. And sometimes I was, that's my idea. Which is really sad. Excuse me. That's my idea. Hello.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

When was there a moment in your life when you thought, I'm not gonna do that anymore. I'm gonna pitch it myself? Do you remember?

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, I don't. I don't remember.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

You don't remember?

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, I'm still scared.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

See, this is what I wanna talk to you about. Because I was wondering when I read that and I thought I was so used to being shut down. Yeah, that was just part of the thing, you know, it was. I don't know if I think it's a woman thing. I think it's a woman thing.

[Catherine O'Hara]

But anyway, I think you're probably right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I think I am. But let me see. I would say that.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Are you looking at Chat? Are you looking at Chat?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, I'm looking at AI to help me get through this because I'm having. Hang on, let me just keep it.

[Catherine O'Hara]

What did Julia say?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Julia, you are one of three women in the cat. Okay, yes, AI is helping me here.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yes. And.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But there is. There was, and I still fight it. A remnant of, for example, when I'm pitching something, you know, whatever, any aspect of a scene or a this or a that, there's a part of me that has to push through that pitch because that's a remnant of. From way back then, of not being heard. And I think it also leaves me with a little defensiveness about my ideas. That's probably not healthy. But, I mean, I'm aware of it as it's happening. Do you kind of know what I'm talking about?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, yeah. I would start Most if I'm conscious, try to be conscious of it, then I'll try not to do it. But I would start most ideas with sorry, this might not work, but what about this? Yeah, sorry. I know you're doing that, but yeah, the sorry. Always a sorry. I would do that at a restaurant, though. Sorry. Could I get more tea, please? Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Remember I asked for tea an hour ago. It's okay. Sorry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I'm so sorry I didn't order this hamburger. I'm so sorry. I ordered a salad.

[Judith Bowles]

Exactly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Sorry.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Would you mind taking it back? I'll still pay, but please. Sorry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I'm sorry.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I think.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I'm sorry. I was standing in line here. Oh, you want to go ahead? Yeah, go ahead. Oh, it's fine. No, no, no, it's fine.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I've said sorry. I've said sorry to a key on my. On my iPad or computer. If I hit the wrong one. Sorry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, dear.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Is that bad?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, you might want to get a CAT scan after we finish this conversation. I'm just saying it's time for a break. We'll get more wisdom from Catherine o' Hara in just a moment. Spring invites a reset. Windows open, shelves cleared. Only what's useful and well made, kept in rotation. Closets can follow the same rule. Fewer pieces, better pieces. Nothing wasteful. If it's not versatile, thoughtfully constructed and built to last, it doesn't deserve the hanger. That's where Quince stands out. Elevated fabrics, clean cuts and pricing that makes choosing quality over quantity feel both sustainable and smart. Quince creates high quality wardrobe staples from premium materials like 100% European linen, pure silk, organic cotton poplin and lightweight cotton cashmere knits made for shifting seasons. Seasonal colors and prints keep everything fresh while versatile, well constructed designs make getting dressed simple. By working directly with safe ethical factories and cutting out the middleman, Quince delivers lasting quality without traditional retail markups that crisp poplin holds its shape, the soft gauze isn't flimsy and thoughtful. Fits are designed to perform seasonal season after season. It's really incredible how the Quince linen pants don't wrinkle like every other linen you own. It's why thousands of customers consistently rate quince pieces between 4.5 and 5 stars. Truly great clothes worn every day and genuinely loved. Right now go to quince.com wiser for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. It and you will. Now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to q u I-n c e.com wiser for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wiser this episode is sponsored by Better Help March holds International Women's Day, a time to celebrate women's strength, progress and the countless roles they carry. Every single day, the women who show up at work, hold families together, support friends and keep everything moving forward. Often while their own needs sometimes go unseen. This month is a reminder that their well being matters just as much as everything they do for everyone else. Take a moment to think of a wise woman who has shaped your life in a lasting way. A mother, sister, partner, friend or mentor. Someone whose care changed you. It's a chance to pause and reflect on the expectations and pressures so many women carry. Therapy can be a space to set boundaries, restore balance, and receive the same care that's so often given to others. BetterHelp connects people with licensed therapists who follow a strict professional code of conduct. After a short questionnaire, the platform matches clients with a therapist suited to their needs. And if the match isn't right, switching is simple. With more than 30,000 therapists worldwide, over 6 million people served, and an average 4.9 out of 5 session rating for more than 1.7 million reviews, it's support that many people are already finding meaningful. Because everyone deserves a place to be heard, cared for and supported. Especially the women who spend so much of their lives caring for others. Your emotional well being being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] wiser that's better. H E L P.com wiser so you talked about when you were doing SCTV. So you are one of two women in the cast, right?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, I know where you're going, lady. Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

So tell me.

[Catherine O'Hara]

That's what's wrong with aging. You start seeing things a little too clearly. Yeah. And that's why men like to go with younger women. Yeah. Because they don't get it yet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Perfect.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Perfect.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

That's the problem with aging. You see things a little too clearly. So the fact that you guys were being paid less than your male counterparts on scc.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You know what though, I've got to correct that because really, only in the last few years did I find out that John Candy also got. Okay, explain that. The two women and John Candy got paid less than everyone. Now John, God bless him, turned it around big time as, as the years went on. Yes, he got a, he got a lawyer and he got more than anybody and good for him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, so maybe it was about you just had shitty representation or was it?

[Catherine O'Hara]

We had no representation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, well, so there's the real problem.

[Catherine O'Hara]

These are the days when you didn't need representation, Julia.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

They just said, we're going to pay you $200 a week. And you're like, yes.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Uh huh. Oh, that was exactly what it was like for me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I know, I remember.

[Catherine O'Hara]

And I'm not kidding.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Of course you're not kidding. I remember that when I got first hired to do Second City and I was doing. I was in, I was still at school at Northwestern in Chicago and I called my acting teacher and I guess what, Bud, his name was Bud Buyer, he's passed away. And I said, guess what? I just got hired to do Second City. And he said, how much are they paying you? And I said, yeah, he said that as opposed to anything else. And I said, oh, I don't know, I forgot to ask. And then he laughed at me and made me feel so bad about myself. I mean, he was like, oh God, you're kidding.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, he's, he's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It was a real asshole move.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Boy, was he jealous. Like he wouldn't be able to teach you, he wouldn't be able to. You would stop doing classes with him or something.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, guess what? I kind of did.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Because that, see, he knew that was coming.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, I started doing theater in Chicago and I took a lot of pass fails and put off semesters and things like that. But anyway, it's all good. It all worked out. Talk about when something ends. I know, like when a show ends it can be so emotional. And I know that Marty Short, he threw a party for you and he played a bunch of clips of your time at sctv. It was so emotional. That's very sweet of him to have done that, isn't it? Why are you laughing? He didn't do it.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, he did, but I think he did it to torture me. I don't know if he was doing it to be sweet. Oh, for real.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, there was no, we were having a party.

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, it was a party. It was a party at the end of a season, I guess. And I had given my notice. Yeah. That I was leaving. And it was, it was all about my personal life, I swear. My quitting, you know, I got out of high school and got into Second City. That was my life in Second City to sctv. Like I just went along like, ooh, now we're doing this and we're getting paid. Oh, that's amazing. You know, and then I finally hit at some point at this reality, like, where is my life going? And I need to focus on that other part, like meeting someone or, you know, I mean, I was raised to think you get married and you have children if God willing, you know, and that's, you know, and that's your life. Yeah. So I. So I quit mainly for that reason. So it was really emotional. I didn't want to leave the show. Really. I didn't want to quit. But I thought if I don't focus on. I don't know, I don't know. I'm not sure it was the smartest thing. It really made my dad sad because he was so happy that the show was doing well and he heard about it at work. That was awful. But, yeah, anyway, so, yeah, there was a party at the end of a season at Marty's house and he put a clip package together of mine work.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, no.

[Catherine O'Hara]

She was like, why? Why would you do this to me, Marty? That was my reaction. We were going outside the house crying. It's like, Catherine. I thought it'd be fun. Sorry.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, I see.

[Catherine O'Hara]

So it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Okay, got it, got it. So when you did work with Chris on all the movies that you worked with him on. Chris Guest.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

All of that stuff's improvised, although there's an outline. Correct. The way Larry David does on Curves.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no dialogue written, although they would have a few. They definitely have great running jokes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes, of course.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You know, like in Bessant show, it was in the script that I would run into guys who had the best sex of their lives with me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I mean, couldn't be better.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I want that for all my characters. Yeah. And Chris never repeated, like from take to take. When you're improvising all your dialogue like that and you do, you know, one, two, three takes, Whatever you think, oh, I came up with something. There just happened and now do I repeat it? Oh, is that cheesy to repeat it? And oh, how can I get that joke in? Like, what if that take isn't used and you know, or maybe it's a sound problem or whatever the shot and it's like, oh, we came up with that. Like, where does that go? Can we not allow to. You know, there's always that challenge in the brain. Like, no, open up. Just be open to whatever happens, you know, just listen. Chris Cass would never repeat a thought between takes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, really? As an actor, he wouldn't.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Crazy. As an improviser. Just so free thinking. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

We did that on Veep we used to. It wasn't necessarily an outline, but very often there would be scenes. And Armando Iannucci, who created the show, he would say, okay, forget the script, just go and do something. Go, just go. Try this in rehearsal. One for fun, whatever. You know, you've gotta get to point A to point B. And it was so much fun to do that kind of thing. Terrifying. But as long as.

[Catherine O'Hara]

As long as you know what point A and point B is, then you can, if you know the parameters. I find when it's just open and says, hey, why don't you improvise something? What? Within what? What are you talking about?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Right.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Do you love your downtime or are you working a lot? Well, you're doing a podcast, so obviously you love working.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

You know, I love working. I don't love being away from home. And even now, I mean, my kids are grown, but let's talk about that.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. You have two sons and so do I. Yes. Don't you just want to raise them to be lovely partners to somebody, Just.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes, you do. And are they, are your sons partners to anyone yet?

[Catherine O'Hara]

They are. They both live with their girlfriends and they are good guys and they really love each other. Do your two get along like that?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

They're like thick as thieves. I mean, I think they're like best friends. Yes. It's. That's my biggest triumph in life, actually.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

How did you do that working when they were little? How'd you figure that out?

[Catherine O'Hara]

I didn't. I really didn't work much.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, you didn't work much?

[Catherine O'Hara]

No, I didn't. No. And I'd work in town. Remember the first, the first offer I got to work, they were both. How old were they? Probably about five and eight, maybe six and nine. And I got offered a job in London.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh.

[Catherine O'Hara]

And. Yeah, and it was a six week job. And we had a great nanny at the time. She wasn't living, but she was a great, great, great girl. So they came for two weeks. I was alone for two weeks. They came back for two weeks. You know, got them out of school, whatever. So I thought, you know, you've always heard that with relationships, with couples, two weeks is the limit. Shouldn't go longer than that apart. Unless it works for both of you, I guess.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Right.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Same for kids. Yeah. So that worked at that age. What about you? When they were little.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

When they were little, I mean. Yeah, I was doing Seinfeld when I had both of them. So with. They're five years apart. And so with my older son, Henry, I Bring him to work. I had a nursery on set. And so he came to work with our nanny. And so I go back and forth. Frankly, that was really hard, you know, because there was always this pull in one direction or the other. And it was sort of hard to a certain extent to kind of be where you were. But that's how I did it. And then I had our second son, Charlie. It was just that last year of Seinfeld, so he was just a baby by then. I realized it was better for me to leave him at home and go to work and then come back. But I mean, we were in. We were all in la, so it wasn't like I was on location or anything like that. So Henry had a memory of me working. He remembered craft service. He was just like crazy for that.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh yeah, they love that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

They love it.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Does Charlie feel ripped off? Cause he didn't get to be on the set all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, I don't think so. I took a pic. There's a picture of him on set in the Seinfeld diner that I have him on the table. No, he doesn't feel ripped off at all. But what I was gonna say is that a couple years later, I did go back to work. I was doing a series, but it was a single camera series called Watching. Ellie. And I had not been gone from home while he was young. And so now he was like 4. And he came to set one day and I was showing them the sets inside the studio and one of the sets was a bedroom. And so I was pointing it all out and then as he was leaving, he says, mommy, I love your new bedroom. I thought this child. Child, I've moved here.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, great, the guilt.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But now. But your boys are in. Your boys are in the business, is that right?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Well, the older 1, the 30 year old is doing was doing set construction and the Younger1, who's 27, is a set dresser in Vancouver. There's tons of work there. But they're so lucky they have jobs.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

They're so lucky they have jobs. And both of our boys too are working in this industry. And it is quite a remarkable thing to witness, isn't it, to see them?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But I'm really glad they're artistic. Aren't you glad that your kids are artistic? I mean, because they are. I mean, obviously they're creating, making things that's cool as shit.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Well, we definitely encouraged that at home, didn't we?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, we did. Because it's all we knew. Frankly, I didn't know anything Else, I

[Catherine O'Hara]

can't even like a sense of humor. I think you're so lucky if you're raised with a sense of humor.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Boy, isn't it the truth?

[Catherine O'Hara]

It's a gift. It's a gift you either get given or you don't. I don't know how you get. I don't know how you get it on your own.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

You know, it was. Fran Leibowitz was on this thing, and we were talking about that, and she said, it's a sense of humor. It doesn't mean that you are funny funny, but you have a sense of humor. You understand what is funny.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Which is sort of the beginning for me, anyway. Of all the relationships I have, that is top of the list. I mean, you know, or aligned with kindness. I think it has to be there, doesn't it?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Well, you and your husband met in comedy, didn't you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes, we did.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Talk about your husband, Beau. And can you tell the story of what you wrote in your journal? Do you still write a journal, by the way? Do you keep a journal?

[Catherine O'Hara]

No. And journal is such a lofty name for what the fa. I was writing. What were you doing? I Woke up at 11 again. What am I gonna do? Yes,

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

you could publish it. Catherine, that's your memoir.

[Catherine O'Hara]

How sad. Well, that's it. That's called a dead giveaway. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, tell me what you wrote.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Lame.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Lame, Lame.

[Catherine O'Hara]

But I did. Yeah. Why? This guy, Bo Welch, he talks to me every day. Why won't he ask me out? We're supposed to get married.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And did you fall in love with him, like, straight off the bat?

[Catherine O'Hara]

That kind of. Yeah. And. And once we did go out, that was it. There was no not go well. I mean, we've had a couple of breakups, but. Yeah. You never had a breakup with your husband, have you?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, no.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Have you gone through. Have you gone through periods?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Sure. What? Oh, of course. Always. I mean, anybody who says they haven't is. That's Life is lying.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I mean, there's always going to be some conflict, but he's a very nice person, so it all.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Aw.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I mean, he is, actually. And I get the sense Beau is, too.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, he's a good guy. And we just. We really laugh a lot, every day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And your parents were married a long time, right?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, 50 something. 56 years, I guess, when my dad went, goodness. Well, you're on your way. God bless you to that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Wait a minute. And then your parents were married that long, and then they died within 10 months of each other. Is that correct?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, my goodness, that must have been brutal.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Well, it was for them. You know, I remember being really grateful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, really?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Well, I mean, I always was. But especially grateful at my mom's funeral that my mom and dad had given because my dad went first and then my mom died 10 months later. That they had given us each other because we were all together. They get, you know, they had seven kids and we're all still going to thank God. My oldest brother's 83.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, my goodness.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. And that they just seem like the most beautiful gift that they'd given us, each other to be with. Yeah. Yeah. My mom, you know, you hear that a lot about couples. You know, one dies and the other dies soon. I would not have predicted that about my mother. She was really vivacious and loved. Loved painting and drawing and dressing beautifully and talking to everybody on the streets wherever she went. She was friendly with everyone and just, you know, really loved life. But my poor dad had gone through a lot and my mom took care of him for years. And I think that really just wore her down physically. Oh, so wasn't. I don't think it was a typical, like, oh, my world, he's gone. So my world is gone. She was physically done. She was done. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

What did they teach you about marriage, do you think? Think in retrospect.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, we gotta laugh. Laughing. Making each other laugh is a very sexy thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Sexy.

[Catherine O'Hara]

It is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, it is.

[Catherine O'Hara]

It is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It is.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, yeah. I think back on, everybody trying to date everybody at Second City Theater was. Cause we were making each other laughing. Well, we should be together. I'm totally funny. I find you funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

That joke is amazing. I am fucking you tonight. Right?

[Catherine O'Hara]

For real. You're funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I'm gonna have you totally like my

[Catherine O'Hara]

old fashioned way of saying, I'm going to have my way with you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But they. But sense of humor. For sure. I agree with that. And faith.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Faith. My mom and dad were devout Catholics, but never forgetting that the greatest gift is a sense of humor, you know, so, you know, know, very faithful, but definitely with humor.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

When you were talking about having all those siblings, did you ever think you would have lots of kids like your parents did?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yes, I did. I really stupidly assumed it. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Why didn't you? You just. If you don't mind my asking.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I got married late. Oh, I see.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Huh.

[Catherine O'Hara]

And my body was, you know, every time I had cramps every month, the worst cramps. My sisters and I all got them really bad and they Would tell, they would take two 22s. It was a codeine you could get in Canada. And I would never. If I took one, I would hurl non stop. So I could never take anything. So I'd have to, like, play these mind games to will the pain away. But I would think, when I had those pains, I thought, well, someday I'll have children. It'll all be worth it. I'll have seven kids of my own. But no.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, two good ones. That's good.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Ah, they're wonderful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I often think, oh, I wish I had one more.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You're thinking comedy threes?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I actually am. Hey, thank you for giving us so much of your time today. You're really very.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Generous. It's really nice to talk to you.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You will edit, won't you, please? Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

You're gonna sound like a million bucks by the time we're done with this thing.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, you're beautiful.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I love you. I got your back, baby.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Thank you. Julie,

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I'm going to ask you a few sort of rapid fire questions.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Tell me, is there something you're looking forward to?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Seeing my sons? Yes. Yeah. It has been a while now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

How long has it been? Oh, July. Oh, it's been a couple months. Yeah. Yeah. Is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21, say, good for

[Catherine O'Hara]

you, you nervy little thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, I like that affirmation. Good for you. Is there something you wish you'd spent less time on in your life?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, maybe sleeping.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I have never in my entire life heard somebody say they wish they'd spent less time sleeping. Okay.

[Catherine O'Hara]

That is. Can I tell you something?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

You are lucky. You sleep too much. Seriously?

[Catherine O'Hara]

I didn't say recently.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, in your life.

[Catherine O'Hara]

In my life. So when you were like a teenager, when you were a teenager, you would

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

sleep until like 2 o' clock in the afternoon. Right.

[Catherine O'Hara]

But I was also, you know, hormonal, I guess, and 16, 17. I was just. I would come home from school and just sleep and then my mom and dad yell for dinner and I'd go, no, leave me alone. I just wanted to sleep. And then when I worked at Second City Theater, we did the show and then we would go to one of our houses and stay up all night coming up with ideas. It was so fun and electric and exciting. Oh, I didn't want anything else in my life. It was so great. But then I would sleep most of the day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Got it.

[Catherine O'Hara]

So that's why I think maybe I missed some things. I think I missed John Candy's wedding for real. I was asleep.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Why am I admitting you're like Barbara Walters. You're just getting everything out of me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I am.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You're gonna make me cry now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Any minute it's gonna happen. Here, this will make you cry. Is there something you want me to know about aging, Catherine? Or I'll say it like this. Is there something you would like me to know about aging, Catherine?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Let you find out for yourself.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I don't want it, Catherine. I don't want to taint you.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I don't want to taint it for you. And I don't want to tease you in case it's not as good as what I'm getting.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, God, Catherine, you're fantastic.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You are. You're awfully good at this.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I adore you.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, I love you. Thank you. Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I love you too.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Are you gonna call your mom? You're gonna call your mom?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Who are you actually gonna say you talk to?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Katharine Hepburn came back from the dead.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Ow. All right.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

There you go. You know, Jane Fonda was on this podcast. She talked about Katharine Hepburn being very, very competitive.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Wow. I guess so, eh?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, yeah.

[Catherine O'Hara]

That's not a surprise, though, is it? Right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

No, it's not.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I got to have dinner once with Jane Fawn and a bunch of women. She was being honored the next evening, and she told us about shooting Coming Home and how the director, he said there would be no sex scene because Jon Voight's character couldn't feel anything from the waist down. And she said, but I can do, you know the scene.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I sure do.

[Catherine O'Hara]

He services her.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah. It's the only thing I remember from that movie.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. But she had to fight for it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It gives new meaning to the title because that was. Remember. Because she was having sex with Bruce Dern.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Bruce Dern. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

At the top of the film. And it's. It's without passion and any.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And then John. John Voight knew what to do.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah. Because she told him off camera, that's what needed to be done. I love that there was going to be no sex in the movie because the men said the man couldn't feel anything, so why would there be anything. Why would anyone get anything out of the deal? Yeah. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I didn't know that.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

It's funny because, I mean, it. It's the only thing I remember from that movie. I was like, ooh, that's kind of interesting, isn't it?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Anyway, thank you again for being so kind and generous.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Thank you, Julia.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And I give you all My love.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

And I look forward to seeing you. I hope soon.

[Catherine O'Hara]

I would love that. Please. Yes, please. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Take care. Thank you. You too.

[Catherine O'Hara]

By.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, that was so much fun. I'm going to get my mom on zoom to tell her all about this conversation. Hi, Mom. Hi, love.

[Catherine O'Hara]

How you doing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Hi. I like your vote pin. That's very good.

[Judith Bowles]

Thank you. Big news this year.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Vote.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, vote. Thank you very much. Have you voted yet? My.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yep.

[Judith Bowles]

Voted by mail.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Very nice. So I talked to Catherine o' Hara today, who is a wonder. And I know. I admire her so much. I don't know how to say it. I just respect and admire her so much. Although, Mommy, I have to tell you something. I think I offended her to start out. I told her, you know, she's a devout Catholic, and she comes from a large Catholic family, and the church has a lot of meaning for her. And. And I told her the Catholic priest joke that David Sedaris wrote about in his New Yorker piece. Do you have any jokes? You remember, Mom?

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, I was just. We were talking last night about the first joke that you ever heard, you know?

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

It's not very fun. I mean, it's hysterical, but it's not funny, really.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, what is it?

[Judith Bowles]

It's what Daddy told his grandfather was a Minister and his 80th birthday, his mother drove them cross country to Oklahoma. And Daddy Tom's about four at that time. He says, I've got a joke. His grandfather loved jokes. So he said, oh, well, tell it, tell it. So he says, why did the ocean roar? Well, you would, too, if you had crabs on your bottom. Well, I mean, that's. That's the oldest joke in the world. And. But every kid. Every kid knows it as their first joke. I mean, I think at least Daddy did. And I remember thinking it was just hysterical, that joke.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Oh, really? When you were young.

[Judith Bowles]

When I was young, yeah. I don't mean now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, let me ask you something. Can you define a kind of thing that makes you laugh?

[Judith Bowles]

It's funny that you say define, because almost, if you could define it, you're not going to laugh at it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Right.

[Judith Bowles]

The joke, the funniness, comes from number surprise, but also the turn, the twist that you didn't expect.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yes.

[Judith Bowles]

So that is. Can I define it? No. But I sure know when it happens.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah, you sure know when it happens. I mean, I remember when we were little, you and I used to howl. Well, chances are I was howling and you were laughing. Cause I was Howling. But we would watch. I think it was Soupy Sales. Or was it Captain Kangaroo with the ping pong balls?

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

But he would do a thing and ping pong balls would fall on him. On him unexpectedly. And three year old me thought that was a. I mean, it was essentially like a jack in the box or something.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, yeah. Now a good joke is so important.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

But who can remember them?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, I'm asking you, can you remember a single joke?

[Judith Bowles]

Hold on a second. Close but no cigar. No, I can't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Can't. No. That's all right.

[Judith Bowles]

So mad because I know some funny jokes.

[Catherine O'Hara]

You do?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

I wish you could remember them.

[Judith Bowles]

There was one time I was telling a joke at somebody's 80th birthday party.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Yeah?

[Judith Bowles]

And I got up to tell it. It's about the guy that he's in a refrigerator and the refrigerator ends up hanging. Hanging over in a balcony. It's very complicated, but I got through all of the complications and then I couldn't remember the end. So I started to laugh so hard and I couldn't. I couldn't even think. I was laughing so hard and everybody was howling and nobody ever got the. They said to me, always, what was a joke? I said, I have no idea, but I got it. And it was so funny. And if I could, they would have laughed. So. Julia, I know of jokes that are so funny that it could be gigantic. But they're going to be silent for now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

What? I wish I could know. The refrigerator one with the man in the refrigerator hanging over a balcony.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh, no, it's about, you know, the guy that's. This. That's sort of in bed with the wife. Not his wife, somebody else. And, and, and so then he probably jumps into the refrigerator and then somehow the, the movers come and they take the refrigerator. I know, it's very complicated.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, it's. It sounds like a smash hit. Mom should take that on the road.

[Judith Bowles]

No, no, in. In the telling, it all makes sense.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Yes, well, evidently.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Evidently that's the case. The telling. The telling is the key. The telling is the key.

[Judith Bowles]

Amen. Amen. Amen.

[Catherine O'Hara]

All right, Mom.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Well, listen, I'm really happy this conversation.

[Judith Bowles]

What is it? I'm so dying to. To hear your. Your interview.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

What interview? Which one?

[Catherine O'Hara]

You mean with Catherine?

[Judith Bowles]

Well, with Catherine.

[Catherine O'Hara]

Oh, I forgot. We were on a. We were on a.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

On it or the buttons on a podcast?

[Judith Bowles]

What does this have to do with Catherine?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Okay, Mommy. Yeah. So long, farewell. I'll see you next time I see you.

[Judith Bowles]

I'll see you. I'll see you soon.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

Okay. Love you.

[Judith Bowles]

Love you. Bye.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfuss]

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of Season three on ad free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at wiser than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade Me Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamila, zara Williams, Alex McGowan and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of New Content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and Me. The show the show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts and if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.