← Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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- [00:01]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, hi there. It's me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. We're back for season three of Wiser Than Me. We've got so much more wisdom to share from the magnificent old ladies featured this season. To celebrate the start of season three, we've added some groovy new items to our Wiser Than Me merchandise collection. Head over to our merch shop to check out all of our great stuff, like a classic Wiser Than Me bagu tote bag, a kitchen tea towel with my grandma Deedee's delicious peanut butter cookie recipe featured on it, and a new, gorgeous hardcover Wiser Than Me notebook to capture all of this season's bits of wisdom. Start shopping today by visiting wiser than me shop.com.
- [00:45]
Isabel Allende
Lemonade.
- [00:51]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
From 1982 to 1985, I had the privilege of being on Saturday Night Live. And there was one sketch that I did in which I played Christina DeLorean, the wife of John Delorean, who I guess he invented the DeLorean car and he had some big cocaine scandal at the time. I mean, could there be anything more 80s than that? Anyway, for the scene, the hair and makeup people gave me a blowout. You know, they straightened my hair because Christina DeLorean had straight hair and I had really, really curly hair. And the scene was, you know, funny or whatever. Probably not. I think my husband Brad might have played John DeLorean, but it doesn't matter. That's not what I'm talking about what matters here is that it was the first time I had ever had straight hair in a sketch. Usually it was just my own curly hair or a wig, Right? So the Monday after the show aired, when we came back to work at 30 Rock, one of the very big bosses called me into his office and he sat me down specifically to tell me that he really liked how I had done my hair in the John DeLorean sketch. And then he tells me that he had gotten a call from somebody at NBC saying that at least five NBC executives wanted to, and I quote me because they thought my hair looks so good. Lucky me. He actually prefaced the whole thing by saying, I've got good news. Yeah, he did. Even now, as I'm telling you this, I'm speechless. I didn't know what to do. I started laughing, in fact, and that's really all I remember. But it stayed with me and I didn't change my hair. But for the rest of my entire three year run there, they kept trying to get me to. A couple of years later, I'd already been on seinfeld for a while. And this same producer came up to me at some NBC event. I hadn't seen him in, like, ages. And he goes, hey, Holes. Because that's what he called me. He goes, hools, I see they're letting you do your hair the way you want. And I'm thinking to myself, and I see you're still clueless. Now, I cannot, in good conscience, honestly, I cannot stand by my big wall of hair that kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger on Seinfeld, that, that truly does not stand the test of time. And I want to apologize to all watchers of that show for that look. But I can and do stand by doing whatever the fuck I want to do with my hair and my body and my brain, no matter what the men in the room have to say about it. Which should be, by the way, nothing. Back then, the implied powerlessness of women in the workplace was just the expected norm. Early in my career, getting producer credit when I was in fact producing a show was like squeezing water from a stone. And look, I know I am lucky, but even for me in my oh so privileged show business sphere, that imbalance has been in place in various forms for my entire career. So many years later. When I first heard about the show Veep, a series about a female vice president who was unhappy, a bitter, angry, thwarted female politician, this rang so true to me. And even though Selina Meyer was out of her pee pick in mind because, you know, let's face it, she's really a villain. Her struggle I identified with and her self hatred I identified with. Her hatred of other women and of her own femininity made a lot of sense to me because it's real and it comes from somewhere that feels so familiar. I really, truly love leaning into that part of Selena. I love being a woman. And I totally understand how being a woman can keep you from your goal and keep your ambitions restrained. I understand why being a woman for Selena was so hard and so goddamn funny. Selena even says at one point she said, I can't identify myself as a woman. People can't know that. Men hate that. And women who hate women hate that. Which I believe is most women. By the way, there's a little Selena Meyer performance for you. The power of women and the powerlessness of women and how we hold those two things together at the same time is very interesting to me. And today I'm talking to a woman whose writing so thoughtfully examines these themes of womanhood. Isabel Allende. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this Is Wiser Than Me. A show where each week I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. So you're a six year old little girl in Santiago, Chile, right after World War II, and you're going to a little convent school with nuns and everything, and for some reason they kick you out. So here you are, just six years old, and you wonder, maybe even through tears, what the heck is going to become of me? Do you think if you were a kid in that situation, even a kid with an absolutely wild imagination, do you think you'd imagine that you grow up to sell 77 million books, be translated into a zillion languages, and be the first internationally successful female South American writer? You would if you were Isabel Allende. If I had to say only a few words to describe Isabel Allende's writing, they would probably be, oh, my God. She writes these sweeping multi generational stories about grief and sorrow, rage and displacement, power and sex and ghosts. And much of it is inspired by episodes from history or from her own absolutely fascinating life. And she doesn't stop with just the writing. She was a feminist long before the term was invented. In fact, she says she knew she was a feminist before she could even utter a word. She's the founder of the Isabel Allende foundation and a recipient of a Presidential Medal of Freedom. Not bad for a little girl who got kicked out of a convent. So if you're ready for some serious inspiration, maybe some killer writing tips. Did I mention she's also a renowned teacher? And maybe a little magic in your realism, then you're in the right place. Please welcome a woman who is way wiser than me, Isabel Allende.
- [08:06]
Isabel Allende
Julie, I am not wiser than you by any.
- [08:08]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes, you are.
- [08:09]
Isabel Allende
Stretch of the imagination.
- [08:11]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I guarantee that you are.
- [08:13]
Isabel Allende
No, no, no. I pretend a lot, I lie a lot so that you get the wrong impression.
- [08:21]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So you're a faker?
- [08:22]
Isabel Allende
Yeah, of course.
- [08:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, I guess to a certain extent, we're all fakers, right? I mean, we have to sort of fake our way through certain situations. By the way, are you comfortable if we say your real age?
- [08:31]
Isabel Allende
Of course. I'm 80. I'm so proud of being 80, Julia.
- [08:36]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You should be.
- [08:37]
Isabel Allende
I'm so proud.
- [08:38]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You should be proud. It's so gorgeous. You are so gorgeous.
- [08:42]
Isabel Allende
Oh, thank you.
- [08:43]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
How old do you feel? Do you feel 80?
- [08:46]
Isabel Allende
Look, when I compare myself to my husband, who is six months younger than me, so let's say that he's 80, I feel that he's 80 and I'm not because I Can still run up the stairs, and I can touch my toes and I jump out of bed, and I work 18 hours a day, and I'm fine. So probably because I'm healthy, but also because I have a purpose and I. I have a very good life. I'm very happy.
- [09:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, God, that's.
- [09:14]
Isabel Allende
I'm so happy, Julia. Really. I'm happy to be alive. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be looking through my window right now. I live very close to a lagoon. And I see the ducks and the geese, and it's fantastic.
- [09:29]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What do you think the best part about being your age is?
- [09:33]
Isabel Allende
That you don't have to please anybody.
- [09:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, yeah.
- [09:36]
Isabel Allende
Only the people you love and the people you care for. But not the world, not everybody else. You don't have to follow anybody's lead. You don't have to follow fashion or nothing. If I try to look good, it's because it pleases me, not because I'm trying to please anybody else. I don't care, really.
- [09:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Did you arrive at this place that you're describing later in your life? Because I get the sense this is a little bit who you are.
- [10:05]
Isabel Allende
No. I think that it has taken me years to get to this freedom, this absolute freedom that I feel now, but because during my youth and my mature years, I was trying to prove something. I was trying to do something to become someone. You know, everything. Raising kids, having a marriage or a divorce or exile. All the things that I have gone through were, like, tests that I had to go through. And now I feel that I don't have to. I know that the final test will be real old age. Being ancient, when you are dependent, and then death. That's going to be the final test. But right now, I'm in this wonderful period in which I don't feel tested.
- [10:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
God, I cannot wait to be 80. I'm telling you that right now.
- [11:03]
Isabel Allende
You gotta start right now.
- [11:07]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I can't. You're really, really selling it well. For real. Can we talk about feminism? Because first and foremost, I have to say in your writing. I was saying this earlier, before we have this conversation. I was talking to my producers, and I was saying, what's so extraordinary to me about your writing is that your feminism is baked into the writing. It's in the fabric of the writing. When you're not talking about it, it's there. And I love that. What was the moment you realized you weren't treated the same as men? Was there a moment because you said you were feminist when you were A little girl. What was that?
- [11:49]
Isabel Allende
I think I realized very early on that my mother wasn't treated like the men in the family. It wasn't so much about me because I was a child, but very. I saw my mother, I wouldn't say as a victim, because a victim is someone who can't get away from a situation. And maybe she could have been able to get away. Yeah, but my mother didn't have any money, any power of decision of any kind, any freedom. My father had abandoned her with three kids. So she annulled the marriage and she became a single mother with three kids in a country with no divorce. So she went to live with my grandfather. And she was totally dependent. She couldn't make a living. She had to depend on other people to support the kids. She had a roof over her head, schooling for the kids. Everything that was the basic was there, but nothing else. Because in a way, society and probably the family punished her for divorcing, for making the wrong decision, for marrying against her parents will, for all the mistakes that she could have made. And she was so young. So young. My mom was 20 when she married, 24 when she was alone with three kids, one of them newly born. My father never met that kid.
- [13:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow.
- [13:16]
Isabel Allende
My youngest brother.
- [13:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And did you feel that your mom recognized the sort of injustice in the culture? Was she aware of it or you just witnessed it?
- [13:27]
Isabel Allende
I witnessed it. And I don't think she recognized the injustice, but she recognized her dependency and her poverty of resources. She had to ask for everything. You know, recently I published a book called Violeta. And that was after my mother died, because many people said that I had such a fantastic, unique relationship with my mom that I could write about her. And she was also a fascinating character, but I couldn't. I couldn't write exactly about her, but I created a character that would be like my mother, even physically like my mother, but with one difference. My character can support herself and therefore she has a life that my mother didn't have. Because she depended first of the father, then the husband, then the second husband, then me, et cetera. She could never be herself fully.
- [14:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Was this something you were able to.
- [14:26]
Isabel Allende
Talk about with her later in life? Yes. My mom was scared of feminism, my feminism, because she thought that I would get a lot of aggression. And at the time when I was preaching against the patriarchy, I was 14, 15 years old. No one was talking like that. I mean, I was a lunatic. And my mother was scared. She thought that there was something wrong with me, that I would never be able to grab a husband or have a life, who would want me, you know? Plus, she thought that I would get. And I have gotten a lot of aggression for that.
- [15:04]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [15:05]
Isabel Allende
Because I belong to the transition generation that we were the bridge between my mother's values and the way she was brought up and the new wave of young feminists that were changing the world. But we were in between because we were raised like our mothers and we had to act like our daughters.
- [15:28]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But, you know, it's funny, because I think even. Even today, you know, to say that my experience is when I say, yes, I'm a feminist, I don't really say that very much. I behave like it, I live my life like it, but I shy away from the word, which something I guess should be explored. I don't really know why that is.
- [15:55]
Isabel Allende
Because you don't need it. You don't need it, Julia, because you belong to a generation in a country where you don't need to say it, it's just there. But imagine my life 60 years ago in Chile.
- [16:09]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's right.
- [16:10]
Isabel Allende
You had to say it. My mother would say, yes, yes, I understand. You can do everything, but do it quietly. No need to make a fuss. And I would say, mother, how can you have a revolution without a fuss, without making noise?
- [16:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right.
- [16:26]
Isabel Allende
It's impossible. You have to really articulate, say things so that people will acknowledge that that's a problem.
- [16:36]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's right. So speaking of motherhood. Well, first of all, you said. I don't know if you wrote it or you said it in an interview. You said, your mother, who has since passed, but your mother was ahead of you, 20 years ahead of you, and she was showing you the way, which really struck me, because, first of all, it's very much sort of the notion of what this podcast is about. Show us the way. Can you talk about that a little bit about your relationship with your mother?
- [17:08]
Isabel Allende
My mom and I lived. Separated most of our lives. She was married to a diplomat. So When I was 15, I was living with my grandfather in Chile. My mother was in Turkey, and we started writing letters to each other every day. Of course, the mail would take a month or two sometimes. So it was not a dialogue. It was just an ongoing keeping a diary thing, a monologue. And we kept that habit of writing to each other every day all our lives. In the garage of my office, I have 24,000 letters. And that's. I'm not kidding, Julia. It's my letters and my mother's letters that I have collected only since 1987, because I don't have the other letters. I know everything about my mother. We shared our lives. She knew less about me than I knew about her because she was much more open than I was, partly because I didn't want to hurt her. Many times she had no modesty with me in any sense. She could talk about money, about sex, about relationships, about her ailments, about everything. She would say my miseries.
- [18:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Was any of that inappropriate, or was it all appropriate?
- [18:28]
Isabel Allende
Inappropriate. Most of it. That's why I can never share those letters.
- [18:32]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, I see.
- [18:34]
Isabel Allende
A lot of it you could not share with anybody.
- [18:38]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow.
- [18:39]
Isabel Allende
And the confidentiality of it made it so extraordinary. And of course, there was a lot of domestic stuff and little stuff, but also the big issues were there. So I knew my mother so, so well. And when I say she was showing me the way, many times the showing of the way was what I would not do because she had done.
- [19:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes. And would she say as much, don't do this, or you would come to that conclusion?
- [19:09]
Isabel Allende
No, my mother would say, do it. Because my mother was a lady and she wanted me to be a bit like her. Well, there was a point when I had success with my books and I got some recognition that my mother sort of started seeing me under a different light. And then she acknowledged that what I had done was valuable and it was a better life than hers. So at the end of her life, in the last 10, 15 years, we could talk about that. And she often said that she wasted so much time, that she was so scared. She regretted that she could not explore fully her talent for painting, for example. She was always copying instead of trying to express herself. I think that she got fed up with the idea of being the perfect housewife and spouse and the wife of a diplomat. And, yeah, it didn't pay off, you know, and she thought that my life was so much better in spite of the losses and the risks.
- [20:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Was she a good writer?
- [20:19]
Isabel Allende
Yes, excellent writer. And she would be my editor at the beginning, when I didn't have anybody else. She would. She would read my books. And often she couldn't edit in the way a good editor does, you know, but she could say. She could make it look more beautiful, read more beautifully by choosing another adjective and an unusual noun. But also, sometimes she would say, you know what? I don't like the ending. And she couldn't say why. But. But if she didn't like it, I knew there was something wrong with it.
- [20:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, wow. Amazing. You learned a lot about writing from her. Yeah, from everything about her. I would think. I mean, it was the first real critical relationship in your life, Right. With your mom.
- [21:07]
Isabel Allende
And very critical because she didn't like any of my writing until she read the reviews.
- [21:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, that's a shame.
- [21:15]
Isabel Allende
She didn't like anything.
- [21:20]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
My father was very critical of what I did as well. Yeah, he was. And it was kind of gutting because I revered him so tremendously and he was incredibly opinionated and very often. Right.
- [21:37]
Isabel Allende
What did he do, your father?
- [21:39]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, well, my father had an interesting life because he was a businessman. He was in the commodities business, but in fact he was a poet. He was the head of the Poetry Society of the east and, and was published. But he was incredibly intelligent and he had a law degree and he was charismatic and I don't know, he was somebody whose opinion I valued and. And when we butted heads, it was pretty brutal. But. But it seems like, you know, people like that in your life, you, you. I think to a certain extent you need them and then you also have to figure out a way not to need them or to need them the way that works for you best. Right. Which is what it sounds like it was with your mom.
- [22:25]
Isabel Allende
Yes. Yeah.
- [22:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you go back and read them or you let them be?
- [22:29]
Isabel Allende
No, I've never read them. I have only read some of the letters when I have written a memoir, because every single day of my life is in those letters. So if you ask me what happened July 7, 1996, I can go to the garage, take 1996 box out and find the day and I can tell you what happened that day. So for a memoir, it's very useful. But I don't read them. It makes me sort of sad to know that it's there and I will never receive another letter. When she died, I kept on writing to her for a couple of months every day. And then it became something very artificial. I couldn't do it anymore.
- [23:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But you have talked about how you. In the morning you have your time, you wake up early. I don't know if this is still the case. You wake up early and you have your time with your mom and your daughter Paula, who's passed, and you have time with them. Is that in your head? Do you talk, if you don't mind talking about that?
- [23:38]
Isabel Allende
Well, I don't see ghosts and I don't talk aloud, so I'm not completely crazy. But we have a king size bed and two dogs. In the morning I wake up around half past four, sometimes five o' clock, and I have half an hour at least, if not an hour to sit in my bed in the darkness, accompanied by these creatures. I love my husband and the two dogs and be grateful. Remember, think of who I am and where I am, what am I doing. And when I say I talk to my mother. Because often I have questions. And some of the questions are for my mother, some of the questions are for Paula, some are for my grandfather, some are for my stepfather, because I know what they would answer. I know, for example, I know that if I have some issue with one of my grandchildren and I am unhappy about something, I would call Paula, and Paula would say, mom, what is the most generous thing to do in this case? I know the answer. And if I call my mother, I know what she would say. Or my stepfather. So that's when I say that I talk to them. That's what I mean. And I remember them. I'm surrounded by their photographs.
- [25:08]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And what was, like, a question that you asked today, for example, or yesterday? Does anything come to mind?
- [25:15]
Isabel Allende
Today I read an article in the New Yorker about marriage. And it's about a philosopher, a woman philosopher who is happily married with two children. And she falls in love with a student and decides that she analyzes this from a philosophical point of view and decides that she has to follow her heart. So she ends her marriage with another philosopher and gets together with this younger man. And so there's a long, long piece about what relationships are all about. And this morning I was thinking about my mother's marriage and about how unhappy it was. My mother was married for 65 years with my stepfather, and it began like an incredible passion, but they had very little in common, really. And at the end of their lives, I think they were disgusted with each other. Really?
- [26:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Really?
- [26:19]
Isabel Allende
Yeah. So I was thinking of me at 80 with my husband at 80, and this new relationship, because we have been married with. For a very short time, and thinking, how do I tackle this? And at my age, it's more about patience, tolerance, understanding, good humor, good manners are very important. Respecting each other's space.
- [26:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But what was the question then? What was the question that you.
- [26:54]
Isabel Allende
My question this morning was, is my marriage working? Could it be better? How are we doing? So trying to think about it without analyzing it too much from an intellectual point of view, trying to feel it from the heart more. And it's hard, Julia, because life gets in the way, you know?
- [27:20]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, totally.
- [27:21]
Isabel Allende
Yeah. And at our age, there are. For example, Roger has been sick. He had surgery. It took him a long time to recover. So for a while, I felt trapped taking care of Someone I'm not good at it. And then, thank God, he's now much better. He's going to university, he's studying, he's doing stuff. And so I see him coming back to life. And I'm so pleased that that's the case, because how long would I have loved him, really, if he was not the person I married?
- [27:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right.
- [27:59]
Isabel Allende
I married him three years ago, and everything changed very, very soon. First of all, the pandemic hit, and.
- [28:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Then we were locked.
- [28:08]
Isabel Allende
We were locked in a small house with two dogs, and we couldn't go anywhere.
- [28:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, my God.
- [28:13]
Isabel Allende
Working on Zoom.
- [28:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, it's really a blessing. You still like him.
- [28:18]
Isabel Allende
I love him. I really love him. I ask myself today, why do I love him? What attracted me of him when I met him? Kindness. Kindness and a person who is completely transparent. You don't have to guess anything. He's totally the person. You see, that's what you will get.
- [28:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
How did you meet him?
- [28:43]
Isabel Allende
He heard me on the radio, and then he wrote to my foundation. And I answered every first message of a reader. So I answered as I always do. And then he wrote again. And he started writing to me every morning and every evening for five months. And I wrote back sometimes. And then eventually I had to go to a Planned Parenthood thing in New York. He worked in Manhattan. So we met, and he invited me out for lunch. And I said, look, what are your intentions? Because I'm 74 years old and I don't have any time to waste. The poor man. Well, he choked on the ravioli. But he didn't panic. And two days later, he proposed. He said, let's get married. I said, you're kidding. We can be lovers, but I'm not going to get married. But he lived in New York, and I live in California. So he had to take a plane and come to visit for a weekend. It was not comfortable. And after a year or so, he moved to California. He sold his house. He was a widower, gave away everything he owned and moved to my house with two bikes, a few clothes, and for some reason, some crystal glasses. Go figure. Why the glasses? I still have them.
- [30:14]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Ask him why.
- [30:15]
Isabel Allende
I don't know. He just brought the glasses. So we started living in this small house for a while. And he always brought up the idea of marriage. And I always said, it's not necessary. We're not going to have kids. Why are we going to get married? Right.
- [30:33]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I agree with you about that. So I'm curious to hear what his.
- [30:36]
Isabel Allende
Why?
- [30:37]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What's his argument for him.
- [30:38]
Isabel Allende
It was important because he had been married in a wonderful marriage for 48 years with a fantastic human being, his wife Grace. And I think that for him, the idea of marriage was full commitment. And I don't project, I don't give the impression that I will commit to anything except my writing because I am always like, temporary here or temporary there. And he felt maybe insecure, I don't know. But what really tipped the balance was that once his granddaughter anna, who was 7 at the time, went to the librarian in her school and said, miss, have you heard of Isabel Allende? And the librarian said, yeah, yeah, I think I read a couple of her books. And then there was this pause and the child said, she's sleeping with my grandfather way.
- [31:40]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Really?
- [31:41]
Isabel Allende
Really.
- [31:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And that was it. You walked down the aisle at that point?
- [31:47]
Isabel Allende
Yeah, at that point we said, okay, let's get married. This is a bad example for the kids.
- [31:54]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That is hilarious. God, that makes me laugh. My conversation with Isabel Allende continues in just a moment. And believe me, you won't want to miss a single word of what she has to say. Hey, prime members, did you know you can listen to Wiser Than Me ad free on Amazon Music? Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free. Hey, Julia, Louis Dreyfus here. If you listen to me on my Wiser Than Me podcast, you probably already know that I'm an investor and an evangelist for the Mill food recycler. There are a lot of reasons to love mill, but for me, it's all about the impact. Keeping food out of the garbage is one of the most powerful things we can do to help the planet every single day. We're talking banana peels, carrot tops, old takeout. When that stuff heads to the landfill, it becomes a huge driver of climate change. If you already compost, great. 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Think of them as a personal vacation assistant, someone who's got the keys and the know how to handle everything. While you're off soaking up new experiences, find a co host@airbnb.com host let's talk about motherhood and what they don't tell us about motherhood because you, you've talked about how it can be very boring but also very thrilling. And I'm curious about that. And I want to share my experience too. I have two sons at age 30 and 25. And motherhood has absolutely not been in so many ways what I thought it would be. And I mean that positively. But in the beginning I found it very shocking. And I definitely was completely whacked by postpartum, particularly with my first son. And I remember thinking when he was born, it was like you didn't realize what motherhood was until you had a child. And it was like all of a sudden there's this whole other part of life and the world that you didn't know existed, that was ongoing, that you had no idea about. Like there was a huge wall and you didn't even know the wall was there. And on the other side of the wall is this whole new way to live your life, which on the one hand is very exciting, on the other hand positively terrifying. And I remember my father in law was at the house and our son Henry had just been born and he was talking, going on and on about I don't know what, just something a little bit mundane maybe telling stories about his life. And as he' in my mind I'm thinking, how can you all be talking like this as if my life hasn't been just completely upended? And I burst into tears because in the middle of him talking about some college stories, so you can imagine they thought I had gone completely out of my mind. But there was this feeling of great shame about that too. And that's, I guess, really what I want to talk about is the feeling there's a sense that you're not allowed to feel that way. Can you talk about that in your experience?
- [38:12]
Isabel Allende
Well, I wasn't terrified of. At the idea of being a mother, but something happened that is hard to explain. All my life before I became a mother, I was lonely. I was profoundly lonely. I was a child that was, I think I was a smart kid. The only girl among boys and uncles and grandfather, all male, always feeling unseen, always having the feeling that if something happened to my mother and my mother was sick all the time, I would end up in an orphanage so that I didn't have anybody. And the message I got from my grandfather mostly, who was a great person, but this was my family, was, was don't ask for anything because you won't get it. Fend for yourself, don't whine, don't cry, be strong, perform. That was the constant message and great loneliness. And then I fell in love. But I never, now that I look back, I fell in love with the idea of getting married and having kids and the idea of love. But I don't think I admired or respected much that man, who was a very good person, by the way. But I knew that I was smarter, that I was more capable, more hardworking, that I was more organized, that I could do much more than he could, that he was like a child that I had to bring along. And then Paola was born. And for the first time in my life, I felt that I was never going to be alone again, that I had this person in my life that I would take care of for the rest of my life. And it was thrilling. It was something extraordinary. And then when my son was born, I felt that the three of us were unity. Like a table with three legs. Yeah, we were together like a table.
- [40:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
With three legs in House of the.
- [40:24]
Isabel Allende
Spirits, by the way, a table with three legs. And husbands could come and go, exile could happen, whatever, but we were together. And amazingly, you just saw my son. My son is 50 something. 53, 56. I don't even remember. He's with me all the time. We work together. We live not. We don't live together, but very close, 12 minutes away, as I did with Paula. So really, the table with the three legs stands. Stands. It's incredible.
- [41:03]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
By the way, just to clarify, because if my boys are listening to this podcast, I don't want them to think that I was hysterically unhappy when either of them were.
- [41:13]
Isabel Allende
No, but you were stressed out.
- [41:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I mean, I was stressed out.
- [41:16]
Isabel Allende
It is a terribly stressful situation, and nobody tells you about it, nobody talks about it. And now we live in a country where you're supposed to have many children, even if you don't want them.
- [41:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I know. Tell me. Oh, my God. Don't get me going there. Yeah, but you did. You talked about, too, at a time in your life as a mom where you. You did take off for a period of time.
- [41:39]
Isabel Allende
Yeah, I abandoned my children.
- [41:41]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Abandoned them.
- [41:42]
Isabel Allende
I abandoned them. And if you ask me what is the thing I regret the most in my life, that's it. I fell in love. We were living in Venezuela after the military coup in Chile, we had to leave and we were living in Venezuela. My husband found a job in the other end of the country in another province, and I was alone in Caracas with the kids, and I fell in love with an Argentinian musician. He moved to Spain And I followed him and I left my. Well, my parents were living in the same building, but I left my kids and I went to Spain with this man. And a month later, when I realized I could never get my kids back, my husband was never going to allow it. I returned. My husband picked me up at the airport. I came in a very early flight in the morning back from Spain, and he picked me up at the airport. And he said everything that happened was my fault because I neglected you. I wasn't paying attention. You told me and I didn't believe it. So all is my fault. We were never going to talk about this again.
- [42:55]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
By the way, was that true?
- [42:57]
Isabel Allende
Yes.
- [42:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay.
- [42:59]
Isabel Allende
In a way. But I cannot blame him. He was not to blame. It was me. I was impatient, I was alone, I was terribly frustrated. I couldn't find a job. Everything that I had done in Chile was meaningless in Venezuela. And we didn't have any money. I didn't know anybody. So the situation was dire in many ways. But I cannot blame him because he. He was working, he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. And I was supposed to be taking care of the family. And instead I fell in love with somebody else. So when I returned, my husband went back to his work and I tried to make up with my children who had felt abandoned, especially Paula, who was 15 years old. And she was furious, absolutely furious. And my son Nico was depressed when I left. He had an accident, broke an arm, and then he didn't want to eat. So I came back to a very bad situation. And it took years for the kids to want or accept to talk about it, because they never wanted to talk about what had happened. Although I tried to bring it up, because I think that there are certain things that you better. You cannot just leave them there in the darkness, festering.
- [44:28]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No.
- [44:29]
Isabel Allende
And so eventually, I think they forgave me, but I hurt them badly.
- [44:34]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And have you forgiven yourself?
- [44:37]
Isabel Allende
No.
- [44:38]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Really?
- [44:39]
Isabel Allende
No. Because I understand that I was another person then. We change a lot, Julia, in our lives. I mean, life shapes us totally. And the person I was at 35 is not the same that that was holding my daughter when she was dying and I was 50, or the person I am today at 80. It's like reincarnations. And I try to be gentle to the person I was then and understand. But the idea that I hurt my kids is very hard to live with that.
- [45:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Did you go to therapy with your kids?
- [45:22]
Isabel Allende
No, I went to therapy with my husband and alone many times.
- [45:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That first husband, you mean?
- [45:28]
Isabel Allende
Yeah. And I lived with him nine more years trying to fix the marriage. And it was broken. It was broken. And after all those years, we were together for 29 years. And the last nine years was a huge effort, I think, on his part as well, to be again a couple. But I think we had never been a good couple before.
- [45:56]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I see.
- [45:56]
Isabel Allende
We just had been together, sustained, supported by the crutches of society. And when we left all those scratches behind, when we went into exile, everything fell apart.
- [46:12]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And your son Nico, is he married?
- [46:16]
Isabel Allende
He's married and he's very happily married. And my daughter in law runs my foundation and she's my best friend and we work all together.
- [46:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, my God, what a fabulous thing to hear. And you have grandchildren?
- [46:30]
Isabel Allende
I have three grandchildren who are now adults. And they. What? Of course. One is 32, the other one is 30, the other one is 29, I think.
- [46:40]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
- [46:41]
Isabel Allende
Yeah. And they have their lights and they communicate with me. One of them more than the other two. But I don't miss them. You know, one thing that happens. No, one thing that. I'm sorry to say this, I love them.
- [46:55]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No, I love your honesty.
- [46:57]
Isabel Allende
I love them, but I don't miss them. Because when you reach this time in life, you let go of a lot of things. So that is the great freedom to let go. First of all, of all the material stuff. If my house burns to ashes tomorrow, as long as I can get the dogs out, I don't care.
- [47:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, look, I need you to come to my house and clean it out.
- [47:22]
Isabel Allende
Clean it out? Well, my house has very little in it. And whatever is in here.
- [47:26]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you want some of my shit? Because I got. I mean, if my house burns down, I'm gonna cry and cry and cry.
- [47:34]
Isabel Allende
Why even. Why? Julia, you are going to die and you are not going to take anything with you. So who cares?
- [47:40]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, you're right. You're right. No, I hear you. I hear you. Yeah, I think you're right.
- [47:43]
Isabel Allende
And then to get rid of all the relationships that are not worth keeping, that some of them are really toxic, but others are just boring.
- [47:52]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right?
- [47:53]
Isabel Allende
To let go of ambition, of greed, of trying to do or be someone. You let go of everything. And then eventually you let go of your grandchildren. Not because you are not going to abandon them, but because it doesn't hurt you if they don't call you for your 80th birthday. Doesn't matter.
- [48:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
When is your birthday?
- [48:16]
Isabel Allende
August 2nd.
- [48:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay.
- [48:18]
Isabel Allende
I'm a Leo.
- [48:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What are you, Capricorn? I'm January 13th. Yeah, that makes sense.
- [48:25]
Isabel Allende
I don't know anything about astrology.
- [48:27]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, you said like, you went, yeah, yeah, like you knew what I was talking about.
- [48:32]
Isabel Allende
I used to do horoscopes at a certain time in my life, but it was just faking the whole thing.
- [48:41]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You.
- [48:41]
Isabel Allende
Know, I worked in a magazine, in this women's magazine, and we had a horoscope. Every magazine had a horoscope then.
- [48:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right.
- [48:50]
Isabel Allende
I think still. And the astrologer lived in Peru, and this magazine was published in Chile. So one day I went to the director of the magazine and I said, look, I have the. The February horoscope, but I don't have the January. And she said, oh, it doesn't matter. Just put the February in January. So I said, look, if that's how this works, I can do it. Why do.
- [49:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, that's fun. So you got to sort of be fanciful and start. Yeah, exactly.
- [49:17]
Isabel Allende
Of course. So I found out what signs my friends wear, and I would write the horoscopes for them.
- [49:25]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But you are a very spiritual person. Are you a religious person? Are you a spiritual.
- [49:31]
Isabel Allende
No, no, I'm not religious at all. And I am very skeptical of the word spiritual because in the name of being spiritual, people are really abusive sometimes.
- [49:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, but explain how you identify with. I don't know, what do you want to call it then, if we don't use the word spiritual?
- [49:49]
Isabel Allende
I think that I'm aware that the world is a very mysterious place and that many things there's a lot of. Most stuff we can't explain and most stuff we can't control. And we are just part of a chain, part of nature, part of everything that is alive. And when I die, I will go back to some other form, like, I don't know, fertilizer for the ground or something. I don't believe in heaven. I don't believe that there is a God watching what I do that is going to punish me. But I do believe that there is organic justice and whatever I do, I will have to pay for the good and the bad. So I'm very careful. I step carefully. I don't want to hurt anybody.
- [50:36]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you have a death sort of plan? Have you thought that through?
- [50:40]
Isabel Allende
No, I haven't thought much about it, but I've talked with my son about it. I don't want to be kept alive beyond the natural time. No artificial life, if possible. I don't want to die in pain. I want to die knowing that I'm dying, conscious and living my death to the very end, because I think it's an extraordinary experience. I know I held in my arms my daughter when she died. She was in a coma, so she was not aware. But then I held my mother when she died and she was totally aware. At one point she asked me, am I dying? And I said, yes, mom, are you afraid? And she said, no, I am curious and I am content.
- [51:33]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, my God, what a blessing.
- [51:35]
Isabel Allende
What a blessing. And she died in my arms. And then three months later, my stepfather died in my arms. And we were best friends, he and I. And he was terrified of death, absolutely terrified, screaming in terror. So when I compare those experiences, I see that my mother was prepared. She prepared herself for that point. My mother was religious in the sense that she had been brought up Catholic and she would listen to the mass on TV on Sundays, but she was not fanatic at all. But somehow she had an idea of the soul. She prepared herself. My stepfather was a social being, a diplomat, a civil servant, someone who lived, a very gregarious person. And in the last years of his life, when all his friends had died, even his children had died, he was alone and he was scared of everything. And the purpose of his life, which was this gregarious life, ended. And the last years were very sad.
- [52:46]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I had the experience of being with my father when he passed away and he died at home. First of all, it's a complete gift to be with a loved one when they pass.
- [52:59]
Isabel Allende
Absolutely.
- [53:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And in a weird way, this might sound strange, but in a weird way it reminded me of waiting for somebody to give birth.
- [53:11]
Isabel Allende
Exactly.
- [53:12]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And we were there, just all like, frankly, in the bed lying next to him. And when it came time to go, he was ready to go, which I was surprised by, actually, because he was a fighter. And he kept saying, let's get this show on the road, you know. But he has been certainly. He died I don't know how many years ago. It's been now 2006, so five, eight years ago now. But he's with me all the time and I'll tell. Are you clairvoyant? Do you have any sort of. Do you get signs or things like that?
- [53:52]
Isabel Allende
Very few I do, but few. Not like my grandmother, who was totally magical.
- [53:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
She was for real.
- [53:59]
Isabel Allende
Yeah, but what you are saying, Julia, reminded me that when. That my daughter died at home, also Paola, and she died in a large family room, that we sort of created a sort of hospital there for her. And it was a very long night. She died finally around 3 o' clock in the morning, and we were all there with her. And there was this sense that something mysterious and sacred was happening. And it was like a stillness in the air. A stillness is the only way that I can describe it.
- [54:41]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right.
- [54:42]
Isabel Allende
Like waiting and not waiting. Like just everything was like a photograph. And then a few months later, my granddaughter Nicole was born. And I was there with her when she was born. I took her out of her mother and cut the umbilical cord. And when the process of the mother walking the corridor and then the effort of giving birth and the long time and then the coming and the stillness in the room, that sacred moment when, when that happens, it was very similar to the moment when Paola died. And I remember I was holding this little baby and I said, it came out of my gut. I said, tell me, tell me how it is before you forget. Because I had the feeling that she was coming from the same place that Paola was going to.
- [55:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, God, that totally makes me cry. I love it. I had this experience. Sorry, I'm choked up by that. But I had this experience that was really bizarre. But I took it to heart, which was the year, like, to the day after my father died. Two things happened. One, I won an Emmy for the show Veep I was doing, and I got diagnosed with breast cancer.
- [56:27]
Isabel Allende
Wow.
- [56:28]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. Within a 24 hour period. Yeah. And it was like out of nowhere, man. It was really scary. I mean, cancer is scary, period.
- [56:38]
Isabel Allende
How are you doing now?
- [56:39]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I'm fine, thank you so much.
- [56:41]
Isabel Allende
Oh, good, good.
- [56:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I'm fine. But my father, his whole life, he used to drink. He had a favorite drink, diet Peach Snapple.
- [56:53]
Isabel Allende
Oh, how awful.
- [56:55]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know. I'm sure that's what the worst. Right? It's utterly disgusting. And if he came to visit, I had to make sure to have it on hand. And not all the stores sold it. And we'd have to go around trying to locate it. And he drank it incessantly. Guy so fucking crazy. But anyway, he was. And so after I got diagnosed, I was immediately scrambling, of course, to get a team of doctors together to figure out who they were going to be. I interviewed a bunch of doctors and I finally found this one oncologist with whom I who had come highly recommended. And I was sitting in her office with her, talking with her about my particular kind of cancer. And as I'm talking to her, I notice on her desk, diet Peach Snapple.
- [57:48]
Isabel Allende
No way. Yeah, it's like a sign. That's a sign.
- [57:52]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And I thought, I'm gonna be okay.
- [57:56]
Isabel Allende
Yeah, absolutely.
- [57:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. Isn't that something?
- [58:00]
Isabel Allende
Yeah. I see signs like that.
- [58:04]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I see signs like that, too. I mean, I don't mean to sound like a lunatic. It sounds like I'm a lunatic yakking on a podcast.
- [58:12]
Isabel Allende
No, no. But, but you. If, if we pay attention to, to everything that happens around us, there are signs, right? There are signs. You know, Roger's wife Grace, loved ladybugs. And it has happened often that when they are talking about her, there's a ladybug and they are not so common. You don't see ladybugs all over the place. It's not like flies. And yet you have to think maybe we are interpreting it as a sign, but it makes us conscious of the mystery, the mysterious dimension of the universe.
- [58:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And even if it isn't a sign, which I would like to believe that it is, even if it isn't, to think of it as a sign is okay.
- [59:06]
Isabel Allende
It's comforting.
- [59:07]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Comforting.
- [59:08]
Isabel Allende
Yeah.
- [59:09]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And as you say, it is an affirmation of the mystery of life. And we can all agree on that.
- [59:15]
Isabel Allende
Yes.
- [59:15]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [59:16]
Isabel Allende
Very mysterious.
- [59:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
There's more with Isabel Allende coming up after this short break. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card is a no fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day. That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today, subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on credit worthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com. you may know the cute Aflac duck, but did you know Aflac is a leader in supplemental insur. Well, Aflac is here to help with something most people don't think about until they're in the middle of it the gap between what health insurance covers versus what it doesn't. Aflac offers supplemental insurance that can help you with expenses health insurance doesn't cover because even with good health insurance, if you get sick or injured, you can still be left with out of pocket expenses. Aflac can help with the part that may not be covered, which can hit your wallet when life already feels overwhelming. Aflac pays cash that can be used to help with anything you choose in your time of need. That could be towards medical bills like copays or prescriptions or even everyday expenses to help keep life going while you focus on getting better. And that's really what it's about helping provide peace of mind, knowing that if something happens, you're not alone. Aflac is here and they can help provide a financial safety net. Get help with expenses health insurance doesn't cover. Visit aflac.com to learn more. Ever get the itch to try something new? To learn new skills that could really open up your world? Maybe you've always been curious about another language? Well, springtime could be the perfect time to dive in, and Rosetta Stone has been the trusted guide, helping millions learn in a way that feels natural and actually works. Maybe you want to understand the movies and music you like more, or are planning a trip down and want to immerse yourself in the local culture. Learning a new language with Rosetta Stone can make all life so much more interesting. Rosetta Stone offers this immersive method that helps you really retain and absorb a new language. They've been honing this approach for over 30 years and offer a fantastic range of languages. You won't find yourself bogged down in endless English translations. Instead, you'll start with words, move to phrases, and eventually be forming your own sentences, all while learning to truly understand and speak the language. And it's designed for the long haul, so what you learn sticks with you. The flexibility is a huge plus, too. You can learn wherever and whenever it suits you on your computer or through their mobile app. Got five minutes? While you're waiting, squeeze in a lesson. Have a whole hour. You can really make progress. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential. Now. Wiser Than Me listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com wiser to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com wiser and start learning today. There are a lot of folks who have a thing for British tv, and who can blame them? It has a certain quality that's utterly, well, good. It's the sharp width, the stunning backdrops that make you want to book a flight immediately to some gorgeous foggy, and that delightful, almost weaponized politeness that often masks some seriously shady goings on. And when it comes to a good mystery, forget about it. British TV practically invented the genre. Not an episode goes by without 10 people being murdered in a charming village. It's a national pastime, apparently. And where do they get their fix? Britbox Naturally. It's the streaming haven for the very best in British mysteries, dramas, comedies, gardening shows and addictive originals Like Ludwig, it's about this genius puzzle maker turned accidental detective. And it's like Sudoku meets Monk, but with a lot more corduroy. There's also a new series on the horizon called Outrageous. It's based on the real life, rather scandalous story of the Mitford sisters, who caused quite a stir in 1930s Britain. So if it's time to give your usual streaming habits a bit of a sophisticated twist, Britbox is calling. Start Streaming today@BritBox.com Stay cultured, everyone. So, oh, my God, we've talked for so long and I haven't even talked to you about your writing. Oh, I haven't even talked to you about your beautiful writing. You're so prolific. And you. Obviously, I'm stating the obvious. You say that your writing is not a product of discipline, but that you have to do it. Right. So can you talk about your process?
- [64:50]
Isabel Allende
I am very disciplined. I am very disciplined, but because I was trained to be since infancy and to really work. And also because I love it, right? I love the research. I love. I can be sitting down 12 hours in front of a computer creating a story, and then when I get up, I can't even move. But I don't feel the time passing because it's so. I'm so engaged, so involved, so entertained, so happy. So when I hear those writers that say that, the torment of writing, the torture of the blank page, well, don't do it, then. Why are you doing it?
- [65:34]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, walk away from it.
- [65:36]
Isabel Allende
You know, I get asked all the time, some advice for young authors, for aspiring authors. And the best advice, I heard it from Elizabeth Gilbert. She said to an audience who someone asked in the audience the same question, and she said, don't expect your writing to give you fame or money. Write because you love the process, Right? And that's the whole point. Love the process.
- [66:05]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's the point. And by the way, apply that to any passion. Yeah, any passion.
- [66:11]
Isabel Allende
What you do right now, you are loving it. Loving it, absolutely. So you love the process?
- [66:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, yeah, totally. Has your approach to writing, or how has your approach to writing evolved since you were young? Since you were, say, 25 or 30?
- [66:29]
Isabel Allende
I started writing at 40. Oh, at 40, you started, yeah, I wrote the House of the Spirits at 39. It was published when I was 40.
- [66:38]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, except you were writing before as a journalist.
- [66:40]
Isabel Allende
As a journalist. But it's very different. I mean, very different.
- [66:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, so since you were 40, how has that process evolved? If in fact it has or has it sort of remained a constant?
- [66:52]
Isabel Allende
When I Wrote the House of the Spirits. I had no idea what I was doing. I had no plan, I had no script, I had nothing. I just sat down and told the story of my family. Of course, I changed the names and I fictionalized it, but all those characters are my relatives. With a family like that, you don't need to invent anything.
- [67:13]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. As you were talking about your stepdad, I was thinking of Esteban and Clara.
- [67:18]
Isabel Allende
But that would be more my grandfather and my grandmother. My grandmother was just like Clara. I see. And my stepfather was not an assassin and he was not a rapist like in the book. Right, but he was. But the character, the personality was very much like Clara. I wrote with innocence and with spontaneity that I would never have again. After the first book was a success. And then after that, I realized that there was a world out there, the book industry, that I had never imagined it existed. Editors, agents, publishers, marketing, publicity, distribution, I didn't know anything about. And so when I wrote my first novel, I had the freedom that I never had again. But in time, I think that I have acquired experience. Now I know how to research. I know what I will use of the research and what is just for my information, but shouldn't be in the book. I know how to edit and correct. And cut. I am merciless cutting. Before, I would fall in love with the paragraph. And even if it didn't fit there, or even if that scene was too much, I would leave it in the book because I loved it had taken me so long to write it. Now I don't care. Whatever time it takes, it's what it takes and it will go.
- [68:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's funny, because that's something that is very present in my life too, just as a producer. And if I go into the edit, you have to be really quite willing to sort of kill your darlings. Just get rid of them. It does take experience to really recognize that and not be in love with. Yeah, yeah.
- [69:09]
Isabel Allende
And then the other thing, I know now, after 40 years and 28 books.
- [69:14]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [69:14]
Isabel Allende
That I can only write about what I'm passionate about once I gave myself a subject. But really, I have to feel in my gut that this is something I need to test. And if I don't have that feeling of being passionate about the subject that I'm tackling, it's a chore and I cannot do it. The only time that I gave myself a subject and wrote about it was after Paola died. I went into a writer's block, like, for three years. And I would Try to write. And everything that came out was so flat, so dead, that it was just impossible to get around it in a way. Then I remembered that I am a journalist by training. And if you give me a subject and time to research, I can write about almost anything. So I gave myself a subject that would be as removed from death and pain and sorrow and loss and illness and death as possible. And I decided to write about lust and gluttony, the only deadly sins that are worth the trouble. And so I wrote it that are worth the trouble. So I wrote a book that is the connection between lust and gluttony. And that's aphrodisiacs. And that's what the book is about.
- [70:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow. And the name of the book is Aphrodisiacs.
- [70:46]
Isabel Allende
Aphrodite is the name of the book.
- [70:48]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Aphrodite.
- [70:49]
Isabel Allende
And it is about aphrodisiacs and about how the polygamous cultures started in China, Persia, where the emperor or the king would have many concubines and would have to produce many children, because the well being of the nation was reflected in all these children that the emperor could have. And so it was very important to perform. And of course you can perform to a certain extent only. And the idea that food or herbs or different combinations of things could make the man more potent, that was the origin of aphrodisiacs. They don't work, by the way. The only thing that works is Viagra.
- [71:36]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you feel sexual now? Yeah.
- [71:41]
Isabel Allende
Do I feel. I've never had asked myself that question in many years, but yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do.
- [71:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you like to have sex?
- [71:52]
Isabel Allende
Yes.
- [71:53]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Has sex changed for you as you've gotten older?
- [71:56]
Isabel Allende
Of course. Yeah, of course it has changed. And also I have an 80 year old husband.
- [72:02]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right?
- [72:02]
Isabel Allende
Yes. Yeah. We are not spring chickens here.
- [72:06]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. But you still enjoy sex.
- [72:08]
Isabel Allende
Yeah, I enjoy sex with marijuana especially. Ah, sorry. But it's legal here in California, so I can't tell you.
- [72:16]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. Why are you apologizing? I think that's fantastic.
- [72:19]
Isabel Allende
So I get these blueberries that have marijuana and I take my blueberry and it's much better than without it. Partly because I get in a space in which I forget the book that I'm writing, which is always inside my head. I always have one book inside my head. So when I take my one, I forget about the book. So sex is much better.
- [72:43]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But wait a minute, just to be clear, because I'm gonna go get myself some of those blueberries.
- [72:49]
Isabel Allende
I can send you some.
- [72:50]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. Send me some. But I mean, it's like a blueberry gummy. Is that what you mean?
- [72:56]
Isabel Allende
Yeah, it's a blueberry covered with chocolate. Very, very small. Like a blueberry. Small blueberry. And it has marijuana. I don't know if it's in the chocolate or in the bl. Blueberry. I don't know. And then I eat that thing and 45 minutes later I'm like another person. And then after that I can sleep 15 hours. So it's perfect. I should have it every night.
- [73:18]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I gotta get off this podcast. I gotta go down to Medmen and find that for myself. Does your husband take it too?
- [73:27]
Isabel Allende
No. Or you? No, he doesn't. Because he says he has a hangover. I gave him once and he didn't feel good about it. I think that, you know what? He was raised by the Jesuits, and I think that. I think that he has something inside his brain that is like a prejudice against this.
- [73:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
God, I just love this. So listen, let me. So happy to have this tip about the chocolate blueberry. Is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21? Isabel?
- [74:03]
Isabel Allende
Yeah, calm down, Calm down, for God's sake. You don't have to do everything. You don't have to do so much. Give yourself some time. Be more compassionate with yourself. I was merciless with myself. Demanding. And I treated myself as I would never treat anybody else.
- [74:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Wow.
- [74:24]
Isabel Allende
And I would say, stop it. That's not worth it.
- [74:28]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Is there something you would go back and say yes to that you said no to?
- [74:33]
Isabel Allende
I think that I never really learned to have fun in the way that other people have fun, that let yourself go and get drunk and dance and flirt. And I wasn't like that at all. I was really very straight. I dressed like a hippie. I was completely bohemian looking. And I was this outrageous feminist. I had a TV program that was outrageous, too. And always with humor and doing crazy stuff. But my life was so rigorous. I was a mom and I was a daughter and a granddaughter and a wife. Always performing and always doing my duty. And everybody around me in the 70s was doing drugs. I never did any. Any at all. And I didn't drink.
- [75:32]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But look at you now.
- [75:34]
Isabel Allende
Well, now it's just the blueberry once in a while. It isn't every night either. So.
- [75:43]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Is there something you would like me to know about aging that you haven't told me already?
- [75:47]
Isabel Allende
Yes. That you need to have good health and aging to have a good old age. You have to prepare for it. It doesn't just happen the same Way that you will have good skin if you take care of your skin. Otherwise it won't happen. You have to prepare for everything intellectually. Your domestic life, the way you live, the way you think, the way you eat, your relationships, all the that you have to prepare. Don't think it will happen just by chance. And other people who are totally mean and horrible think that they will have a good old age. Why would you have a good old age if you are a bastard? Why would you. Yeah, right.
- [76:34]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Completely.
- [76:35]
Isabel Allende
Why would you be loved if you have not loved? Why would you be taken care of if you have never taken care of anybody, if you have never given anything, if you are not generous, why would you have a good old life? It's not going to happen.
- [76:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Generosity, giving, that's the avenue.
- [76:52]
Isabel Allende
And it makes you so happy.
- [76:54]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It makes you happy.
- [76:55]
Isabel Allende
It comes back to you multiplied by a thousand.
- [77:00]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Mm. Well, this has been a dream and a half to talk with you.
- [77:09]
Isabel Allende
Thank you.
- [77:09]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It really has been.
- [77:11]
Isabel Allende
I suppose you edit all the battles.
- [77:14]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes, but you didn't say anything bad, did you?
- [77:16]
Isabel Allende
You did. You're talking about fuck and stuff like that.
- [77:19]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, that's Isabel. That's staying in.
- [77:22]
Isabel Allende
Okay.
- [77:24]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's the way I talk.
- [77:25]
Isabel Allende
That's the way you. That's the way I talk, too.
- [77:28]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I cannot thank you enough for taking so much time out of your day to have this conversation with me. I feel very honored and blessed to have had it and I hope our paths cross. I hope that perhaps when I come up north and I could grab a cup of coffee or something.
- [77:43]
Isabel Allende
Yes, of course.
- [77:44]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I would love that.
- [77:45]
Isabel Allende
I would love to meet you personally.
- [77:47]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I would like to do the same. God, what a treat. I'm just so happy.
- [77:52]
Isabel Allende
I am so happy. Thank you, Julie. I'm happy, too. You're wonderful. You are absolutely wonderful.
- [77:58]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Thank you. Thank you.
- [77:59]
Isabel Allende
And good luck with your kids, with your men, with the marijuana, with everything else.
- [78:04]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, thank you. I love all those tips. Love it. Okay, kiss to you. Kiss to you. Ciao.
- [78:10]
Isabel Allende
Ciao.
- [78:10]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, bye.
- [78:12]
Isabel Allende
Bye.
- [78:17]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, that was just about the most astonishing conversation I have had in my entire life. I have to call my mom. I got to tell her about it.
- [78:31]
C
Hi, love. How are you?
- [78:34]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Mom, I wish you could have been with me for this entire conversation with Isabel Allende.
- [78:40]
C
You know, when I heard that you were going to do her, I was like, there are some people I would be speechless in front of. I think I would have been speechless, Mommy.
- [78:51]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, first of all, you wouldn't have been speechless because she is incredibly warm hearted and and opens up very easily in a way. Without heirs, she is just present and real. So you would not have been speechless. She would have brought out the best in you, for sure, because she is an extraordinary human being. I mean, I really cannot get over this conversation.
- [79:18]
C
I'm so glad. Oh, I just one day want to hear every word that she said.
- [79:22]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
First of all, you know, she had this extraordinary relationship with her mother. She has, Mom, 24,000 letters, all stored chronologically, year by year, in a space of the correspondence between her and her mother. She and her mother wrote letters back and forth every single day.
- [79:46]
C
Oh, that's extraordinary.
- [79:48]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [79:49]
C
Wow.
- [79:49]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It is extraordinary. So you better start writing me a letter or something. Something.
- [79:54]
C
Well, you know, when you went to college, I got a file.
- [79:59]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah.
- [79:59]
C
And it was for Julia's letters. And I wrote to you beginning. And I wrote to you, and nothing ever came of it. And then finally, you had your birthday, which would have been the, you know, the, the January of your freshman year. Wrote me a letter then saying how wonderful it had been and how Paul and they had a surprise party for you, and Joe was there. I read it to you. I gave it to you on your 60th birthday because it was so rare. And I saved it in my little pile.
- [80:38]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
The one single letter? Yes.
- [80:41]
C
Yes. One single letter. And so I decided that there was not going to be much exchange.
- [80:46]
Isabel Allende
You're probably.
- [80:49]
C
I wish I had done that. I, I would give anything to have known, you know, day by day, when you were little and your, when your, your sisters were little, all the things they did and said and, I mean, it would have been priceless. But who does?
- [81:05]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
There you go. Who does it? Well, Isabel does, and her mom did. Yeah, she's, she's 80 now. And she said the best thing about being 80 is that she doesn't have to please anyone except those that she loves. And she only looks good if it pleases her. And she went on and on about it in such a way that I thought, sign me up for 80. She did, really. It was incredible. She feels freed from certain obligations that she used to be burdened by. Do you feel that way at all or not really? Really?
- [81:44]
C
Oh, I do. I do.
- [81:45]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes.
- [81:46]
C
It's, it's a wonderful thing. I, I, I quite agree with her. I probably am not quite as free as maybe she is, but there is a definite freeing feeling because you, you can see through it. You can see through how stupid it is to put on, you know, lipstick to go to the local store. I mean, you know, there was a WOMAN in we used to live and she used to get herself dressed up.
- [82:11]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
To take out the trash. Trash.
- [82:13]
C
And I, I just think to myself, that's the most pitiful thing. I mean, you saw her, she put on high heeled shoes to take the trash out, but there was nobody there. I mean, it wasn't as if mom.
- [82:23]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
She may have been enlightened because she might have been doing it to please herself.
- [82:28]
C
Well, now you've got it. Because I never did ask her the, the question. She was sort of famous in the neighborhood for being the trash.
- [82:35]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Should have gone up to her and say, are you doing this for yourself or are you trying to impress us? Because if it's us, it ain't working. All right, Mommy, I love you so much.
- [82:50]
C
I love you so much, honey. And I will talk to you and thanks for doing this. I'm so happy you're doing it. I'm so proud. I'm proud. Oh my God.
- [82:57]
Isabel Allende
It's so good.
- [82:57]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Thank you, Mommy. Thanks. And I'll try to write you more often. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonade Prima subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Alex McGowan and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neal is our senior director of new content and our VP of weekly production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, Paula Kaplan and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yourr and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Charlotte Christman Cohen, Ivan Koraev and Keegan Zema, and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, if there's an old lady in your life, listen up. Got a guest room that's just collecting dust. You know, the one you furnished tossed in an extra tv, but it really only gets used when your mom comes to visit. Well, why not put it to work on Airbnb for a weekend or a month, depending on your schedule. If you're headed out of town for a while, Airbnb can help you earn some extra extra cash while you're away. It's a flexible, no strings attached way to make money on your own terms without any long term commitments or fixed hours. You're already paying for your space, so why not get something back from it? Airbnb helps you work smarter, not harder. Instead of letting your extra space sit unused, you can easily turn it into a source of income. And to make it even easier, Airbnb has a feature called co Host that can help. Think of them as a personal vacation assistant, someone who's got the keys and the know how to handle everything. While you're off soaking up new experiences, find a co host@airbnb.com host.