Becoming like Jesus with Matt Chandler: Part 1

Summary

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Podcast Summary: With The Perrys – "Becoming like Jesus with Matt Chandler"

Hosts: Preston Perry & Jackie Hill Perry
Guest: Matt Chandler
Release Date: April 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this rich, vulnerable conversation, Preston Perry and Jackie Hill Perry sit down with pastor and author Matt Chandler to explore what it means to "become like Jesus." The episode centers on Matt’s new book, Becoming like Jesus: About Every Day, unpacking core themes of sanctification, spiritual growth, and the lifelong journey of Christian formation. Combining humor, honesty, and deep theological insight, the Perrys and Chandler discuss why the way of Jesus is marked by hope amid hardship, the practical realities of wrestling through trials, and how the Beatitudes reframe our understanding of true spiritual maturity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reality and Hope of Christian Growth

• Sanctification Isn’t Linear
  Matt Chandler recounts his long tenure as a pastor, highlighting the privilege of watching people’s spiritual journey over decades:

  "I've had a lot of wins, I've had a lot of losses. Been in the paper for both. And it's one thing to experience the goodness of God in the valley and on the mountain and in the mundane...has really just given me all the confidence in the world that come what may, God is at work." (05:31–07:12)

• Addressing the "Up and to the Right" Myth
  Chandler exposes the false idea that the Christian life is endless improvement:

  "Nobody got up and to the right in the Bible...it's more like a horizontal coil where every high and low actually is still moving you forward. The Christian life isn’t about wins and losses. It’s about staying tethered to Jesus." (08:17–09:50)

• Struggles Are Not Signs of Failure
  Jackie emphasizes that hope marks Christian formation, even when progress feels slow or despairing.

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2. The Glory of God and Our Formation

• God’s Glory: The Ultimate Good
  Preston recalls how Chandler’s earlier book challenged his assumptions about God’s priorities:

  "You said the foremost desire of God's heart is not our salvation, but rather the glory of his own name…when I started to grow in my faith, I realized how true that was." (10:13–10:55)

• Personal Trials and God’s Shaping Hand
  Chandler offers a candid look at his hardest seasons, including early marriage struggles and his widely-known battle with brain cancer:

  "My marriage with Lauren was absolutely brutal…And then I had this...I got brain cancer in 09..." (11:29–13:44)
  "The ways that I would mature as both leader and shepherd…would oftentimes come at the cost of other people...and I was able to repent quietly." (13:18–13:44)

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3. Staying Tethered to Jesus Through Suffering

• "If You Don’t Quit, You Win"
  Chandler stresses real maturity comes not from avoiding hardship, but enduring it with Christ:

  "If you don’t quit, you win. One day at a time. And if that’s too much, then one hour at a time…He will not leave you, nor forsake you…He started this. He’ll finish this." (15:22–18:17)

• The Necessity of Genuine Experience Over "Spiritual Bypass"
  Spiritual growth involves living through difficulty, not just knowing about it:

  "...they want to bypass the going through so that they can pretend to know, and it ain't the same thing...He gives you grace for what you do go through." (15:22–18:17)

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4. The Beatitudes: Jesus’ Vision for Formation

• Not a Checklist, But a Portrait
  Chandler unpacks why he centers the book on the Beatitudes:

  "They are not a checklist of spiritual goals...They are a portrait of a person. Jesus is forming through us a lifelong spirit empowered process of sanctification." (21:02–21:21; 21:27)

• Formation Is Cyclical and Relational
  Growth happens in repeated cycles; the Beatitudes form a multidimensional picture:

  "You'll go through them over and over and over again, but each time you go through, it’ll be a little bit different." (19:11–20:49)

• Measuring Spiritual Formation
  The group humorously reflects on Western culture’s obsession with measuring progress:

  "We measure everything but relationship, which is how you're formed...even the Beatitudes, they feel intentionally like it's going to be hard to grade..." (21:27–22:28)

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5. Redefining "Blessing" and Joy

• Reframing "Blessed"
  Chandler clarifies that biblical blessedness is about being seen and held by God, not about favorable circumstances:

  "Technically…in Greek it is happy…But biblical joy seems to hold regardless of life circumstances." (24:05–26:40)

• Joy as Perspective and Presence
  Joy is rooted in turning our hearts toward God amid hardship, not in fleeting feelings:

  "Joy can be found in making that turn…to the one who sits at the center of reality." (26:45–27:40) "Christian joy is born that come what may, no matter what happens…I've got a place to go—that's so beautiful and that's. Joy is born of trust." (28:19–29:54)

• The Mystery and Arrival of Joy
  Jackie shares her struggle and the importance of waiting for joy:

  "I think what has helped me is to anticipate that sometimes you have to wait on it…joy comes in the morning, tells me to anticipate that it is coming, even if it's not coming at the pace that I would prefer." (30:20–31:34)

• Christian Lament Is Real
  The conversation highlights the honesty of biblical prayers:

  "I wonder if confession … sometimes it's just telling [God] the truth…Lament. It's like that's the stuff that's gone. The. How long, O Lord? Will you forsake me?" (33:22–33:31)

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6. The Gift and Posture of Being “Poor in Spirit”

• Humility as the Gateway
  Chandler discusses how genuine neediness before God is the non-negotiable entry point into sanctification:

  "There's no way that you can come to the Lord…and really the word there in Greek, it's beggarly. Right. Isn't that wild? It is not just low." (34:37–35:18)

• Spiritual Low Points Are Often Where God Works Most
  Staying "low" positions us to see God's kingdom at work:

  "The kingdom of God is the rule and reign of Jesus. And you stay low, you're going to see the rule and reign of Jesus… The lowly, the poor in spirit, the beggarly in spirit. I have nothing to offer you. They see the kingdom." (38:09–39:19)

• Proper Perspective of Self and God
  Living out "poor in spirit" guards against both pride and self-loathing:

  "If you're living checklist Christianity…you can get into man. You ain't getting high like you used to…That ain't how the Lord sees it...If this is relational and I've come in beggarly, then I see myself rightly..." (39:51–41:48) "Stay low and stand up." (42:07–42:14)

• Power Comes Through Weakness Jackie:

  "The kingdom breaks in through brokenness and beggarlyness and all the things. I think we think being strong is the way...when it's like, on my face is how it happens. And that. That takes a lot of reorientation." (42:32–43:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On hope in hardship:

  "God will be with you in the mess and…the joy that you have is the presence of your Creator who will not create distance from you and who presses into your failures, your longings, your disappointments, your heartbreaks, your losses, with great comfort."
  — Matt Chandler (26:40)

• On spiritual authenticity:

  "He gives you grace for what you do go through."
  — Matt Chandler (17:30)

• On perspective in suffering:

  "If you don’t quit, you win. One day at a time. And if that’s too much, then one hour at a time."
  — Matt Chandler (17:14)

• On measuring spiritual growth:

  "How do you measure humility? It's like, oh, I'm real humble now...the most humble man I know, right? That ain't gonna work."
  — Preston Perry & Matt Chandler (22:28–22:43)

• On staying low but confident:

  "Stay low and stand up."
  — Matt Chandler (42:07)

• On the mystery of joy:

  "Even when it does come, it's not like a shot of AAA, you know, it's not, it's not, it's a settledness that I think is really mysterious because it's, it's something that happens, I think, in the process of clinging and crying and depending where you just experience one weight being lifted and you can't explain why."
  — Jackie Hill Perry (31:00)

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Important Timestamps

• [05:04] – Matt shares the motivation for his book and the gap in evangelical imagination about sanctification.
• [08:17] – Chandler explains why "up and to the right" is not the biblical paradigm for growth.
• [10:13] – Preston recounts a formative quote from Chandler on God’s glory vs. our salvation.
• [11:29] – Matt Chandler vulnerably details the lows of his marriage and his cancer journey.
• [15:22] – The concept of "spiritual bypass" and the genuine journey through difficulty.
• [18:45] – Introduction to the Beatitudes and their role in Christian formation.
• [21:02] – Chandler: the Beatitudes as a portrait, not a performance checklist.
• [24:05] – Defining what "blessing" actually means according to Jesus.
• [28:19–29:54] – Joy, trust, and the “power of presence” in Christ.
• [34:37] – The meaning of "poor in spirit" and its place in the Christian journey.
• [42:07] – "Stay low and stand up"—balancing humility and confidence.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers rich encouragement for anyone struggling with the slow, often painful process of becoming more like Christ. Matt Chandler and the Perrys invite listeners to embrace the honesty of their spiritual journey, reminding us that sanctification is not about achieving perfect morality but about learning to depend on and be transformed by Jesus through every up and down. The Beatitudes serve not as a ladder but as a portrait of who we are becoming in Christ—a people marked by humility, hope, and resilient joy.

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Transcript

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[Jackie]

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[Jackie]

Hello saints and eight. Hope you're doing good. Whatever good is that wasn't as melancholy

[Preston]

as your other opening.

[Jackie]

I am trying my best to be hopeful.

[Preston]

We take it. That was like a.

[Jackie]

You know, I cried a lot this morning to get it all out of me.

[Preston]

Oh, wow.

[Jackie]

It's fine.

[Preston]

Ain't nothing wrong with a little tears.

[Jackie]

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, something I, I discovered the other day.

[Preston]

What it is.

[Jackie]

This is yesterday.

[Preston]

Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, what it is.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

So honestly speaking, me and Preston are just in a very interesting season of life. And so where things are hard, complex, complicated, all the stuff. And so like I randomly stumbled on, you know, like when you, like, are like praying and you don't know where to go, it's like, do I go to Psalms? Do I go to Matthew, Do I go to Revelation? I don't. I randomly was like, I' ma just go with the chronicles. And so I just turned to Chronicles, chapter 20 randomly. And it's talking about Jehoshaphat and the King of Israel. Don't name your kids that.

[Preston]

Oh, that's what I just thought. Like, what's my name day, baby? Jehoshaphat. Come here.

[Jackie]

I think you're going to make a really hard time for them in elementary school.

[Preston]

But anyway, I'm reading Nasty work.

[Jackie]

I'm reading about the man, the King of Israel. Long story short, eventually there's all this stuff happening and all these things and there's a lot of stress and they simply say to God, we don't know what's going on. We don't know what to do, but we're going to keep our eyes on you. And I said, that's it. I'm like, that's. That's the thing when you're going through stuff.

[Preston]

I love the Bible. The Bible gets such simple but yet profound wisdom. That's why we know the book is alive.

[Jackie]

Tell me about it.

[Preston]

Amen. I want to switch subjects real quick. Y' all know the last episode or the episode before last. Jackie was like, like Joaning my. My house shoes while I put Valentine's Day. She gave me a little care. Care bag.

[Jackie]

I did.

[Preston]

And she got me some new house shoes, y'.

[Jackie]

All.

[Preston]

I did. Cause y' all was roasting me for a good week about the house shoes.

[Jackie]

No, they were. They were horrific.

[Preston]

They were like, so.

[Jackie]

They were horrific.

[Preston]

No. What? I think you made them.

[Jackie]

You had no arch support. I think walking through this house flat footed. I think you wonder why you're back there. I think you made them almost 40. You need.

[Preston]

You made them look. You made them seem worse than they really were. They. They're. They're really good.

[Jackie]

No, they were worse.

[Preston]

These nice, though. I like these better. I use those house shoes.

[Jackie]

And that was just a. That's intermediate. That was just. I was at Target. I said, valentine's Day is coming up. We don't really do big things with Valentine's Day. And because they don't even fit and you're still wearing them, they stretch.

[Preston]

So they kind of fit now.

[Jackie]

Yeah. We don't have to make it work. That's the thing. I kind of felt the way we make enough money.

[Preston]

I kind of. I kind of felt the way. I said, Jackie bought this for her, not for me because she hated my other shoes.

[Jackie]

I just said you needed art support, but welcome to our basement, Mr. Pastor Evangelist, Prophet, Teacher, Apostle, Revivalist. I think you're halfway charismatic. I don't know. Matt Chandler.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah, I'm. I'm more than halfway.

[Jackie]

Okay.

[Matt Chandler]

More than halfway.

[Preston]

You're the only person. You're the only person that, like, laugh doing our banter. Everybody else kind of like, does this. You like, you didn't care.

[Matt Chandler]

I was in a couple times. I wanted to jump in there, but I was like, it ain't time yet. Let me just wait till they cue it over here.

[Preston]

It's an honor to have you.

[Jackie]

Do you have house shoes?

[Matt Chandler]

I do have house shoes.

[Jackie]

What?

[Matt Chandler]

They look like They're. They look like Lauren, would she say

[Preston]

they look like house shoes?

[Jackie]

They look like house shoes.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah, those loafer. They look like loafers.

[Jackie]

Oh, they like leather.

[Matt Chandler]

No suede.

[Jackie]

And do they clunk?

[Matt Chandler]

They don't clunk. There's a hard bottom.

[Jackie]

So you hear the hard bottom?

[Matt Chandler]

No, I'm light on my feet, sis. I don't know what that woman's saying over there.

[Preston]

She be hating on my house.

[Jackie]

No, because the way if you started clunking through here, I was like, we got.

[Matt Chandler]

So I got some good arch support in Praise God.

[Jackie]

Well, we thank you for being here, Matt. What? Should I even gonna lie to you? I don't remember the title of your book. I love you. I don't remember.

[Matt Chandler]

You're fine. It's called Becoming like Jesus about everyday.

[Preston]

I remember it.

[Matt Chandler]

Thanks, Preston. Thank you. It's fine. It's. I don't need you. I don't need you to remember it. We'll have some graphics.

[Jackie]

Yeah, I just, I didn't go front with you. I said I was crying this morning. You gotta, you gotta be okay. Okay. But coming like Jesus, obviously the fancy term for that would be like sanctification. Before we started you said you feel ready to communicate this now. Why?

[Matt Chandler]

Well, I've been the pastor of the same church for almost a quarter of a century now. Been with the same people. Like one of my favorite parts of my role right now is that some of those like wilding out 20 somethings that became Christians my first couple of years are now married, kids baptizing their kids, having catechized them in and around the truth of God is and what he's accomplished. And so to be able to watch the seasons, to be able to watch the highs and lows produce is a privilege and something I've fallen in love with. It's one thing to kind of know it in my own life. I've had a lot of wins, I've had a lot of losses. Been in the paper for both. And it's one thing to experience the goodness of God in the valley and on the mountain and in the mundane, just in the Tuesday, but then to watch it play out in hundreds of lives, thousands of lives over a multi decade experience has really just given me all the confidence in the world that come what may, God is at work. And so I wanted to write on it. I don't like that it seems to be a gap right now in the evangelical imagination, like even reading stories of deconstruction. And they're not all this, but a great deal of them are. I gave my life to Jesus and life was still hard.

[Jackie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

And I'm always just like, what, what gospel did you hear like who.

[Preston]

Who.

[Matt Chandler]

Who preached this to you? Who confused you like this? Like Jesus just right there going, hey, in this world, you'll have some trouble.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

Take heart.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

And he doesn't waste it, man. So. So that's. That's a long. I'll ramble. But that's. That's why I wrote the book. Now feel like I've seen it enough, confident enough, and. And I love it. I love the process.

[Jackie]

I was just gonna say, I think what's important about that is I think when you've seen the reality that God is with us, that God changes us, that God changes people, it means that you communicate with some measure of hope.

[Matt Chandler]

That's right.

[Jackie]

You know, because I think in the sanctification conversation in particular, I think I've been wrestling with how. How despairing it can be.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

To feel like you're always hitting a wall when it comes to certain character flaws or always hitting a wall when it comes to certain people. You're pray. So I think to even have a work where you have hope, that's gonna come through, and I think that's important.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah. One of the ways I try to describe it is I try to kind of expose the up and to the right metaphor as being false. Nobody got up and to the right

[Jackie]

in the Bible, and what's up and to the right.

[Matt Chandler]

So it's this idea that if you're graphing your spiritual growth, it's just continuing to. You're getting happier, you're experiencing more joy, you're making more money, you have more sex, you're having more. Right. Everything. All your kids fall in love with the Lord by the time they're 4. Commit to the 1040 window in kindergarten, and it's more like a horizontal coil where every high and low actually is still moving you forward. So the Christian life isn't about wins and losses. It's about staying tethered to Jesus. Whether you feel like you're winning or you feel like you're losing, or everything's going your way or nothing's going your way. The call is, stay tethered to Jesus. Keep saying yes, and he will use all of that to form you. So even what can feel like a loss to us is still moving us forward. Like you got a wayward prodigal child. And the heartbreak of that and the pain of that, it's still moving you forward. Right. When they come to know by the grace of God, Jesus. Cause you're playing the long game and you wept your eyes out, then you're still Being formed right when you're healthy, being formed when you're sick. Be informed. And it might be that low part of the coil where the best work is done. Not the place we want to be, but where the best work's done.

[Preston]

Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. I want to tell you something. Some years ago when I first started to kind of get introduced to sound theology, early on in my walk, I read your book Explicit Gospels. And I read a line in the book that made me feel away at first. I was like, this man don't know what he's talking about.

[Matt Chandler]

Do you know this story? You shared it with me at PAO several years ago. I did.

[Jackie]

Because this is significant. Go ahead, tell the people.

[Preston]

Yeah, yeah. Because you said the foremost desire of God's heart is not our salvation, but rather the glory of his own name. Yeah. And in my mind, I was like, wait, God loves us to be saved? What are you talking about? You know? But then when I started to grow in my faith, I realized how true that was and that God does everything for his glory. And I, I, I, my mind had to kind of be kind of reworked and framed. And so I guess my question is, as you know, you've been a pastor for so many years, can you talk about all the things that God has allowed to happen in your life that wasn't necessarily favorable or pleasing? That, that ultimately that now you see, it was. It happened because of his glory.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah.

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[Jackie]

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[Preston]

Oh, hello, you who didn't set one foot in a mall and still looks amazing.

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[Matt Chandler]

I mean, what had the first seven years? My marriage with Lauren was absolutely brutal. Like, I can't believe this is my life brutal. And I know she's in the room. It wasn't like she was laying in the bed next to me, thinking all her childhood, all her girlhood dreams had come true. It was just rough, man. We were missing each other. Two different backgrounds, two different, like, ways of being brought up, two different insecurities like everybody else, right? Mashed together. So that was humbling and brutal. And the Lord's really used that in a marvelous way, both in our own testimonies and our Ability to love on people and our appreciation for what it is now. Cause we remember when it wasn't this. And then I had this, this is the one everybody else remembers. So then I got brain cancer in 09.

[Jackie]

When you had a low cut.

[Matt Chandler]

Yep, it was low, low sis.

[Jackie]

It was as low cut. I ain't want to call you bald head.

[Matt Chandler]

You're fine, it's fine. There's some she bears out here in the woods. Is that what you nervous about?

[Jackie]

I just remember the looks of it.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah. I had a seizure on Thanksgiving morning on 2009 in front of our three kids. And Lauren had to dial 911 and they found a golf ball sized tumor in my right frontal lobe. And then full resection of the right frontal lobe that Friday after a week after Thanksgiving and then 18 months high dose chemo and radiation, they said I'd have two to three years to live. And that was. Well it was 2009 so we're coming up on 17 years ago. Wow, man. I've made foolish mistakes as a leader. And I think one of the things that I didn't know when I started ministry is the ways that I would mature as both leader and shepherd and pastor and teacher would oftentimes come at the cost of other people. I would make mistakes and hurt people and not even know I was doing it. I'd be pure hearted in the motive, but you just don't know what you don't know. And then some of those mistakes became public and some of them didn't and I was able to repent quietly. And so yeah, those are some of the more significant. That's good. Kind of lows.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

And then, man, I've got all sorts of incredible highs too. The Lord's been crazily gracious to us, man. Like don't make sense to us.

[Preston]

Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful to see because when we look in the scriptures, every leader we see, we see highs and lows, you know, see highs and lows in David, Paul, you know, all of these people. But God has used it all for his glory and he's still doing the same thing in his people now. So I just want to, I just want to commend you because I think that you've been a good leader publicly. I don't see you privately often, but yeah, even the humility that you walk with now is inspiring, you know what I'm saying?

[Matt Chandler]

Thank you brother.

[Jackie]

This morning I was driving and thinking about how I think we have a generation, like every generation that wants to be wise and wants to be godly. But it. I think there's this tendency to short circuit the means by which that actually happens, you know, because I was just thinking about how, you know, I know a lot of things. You know, I read a lot of stuff, but I feel like it's actually the last year or two with difficulty that I feel like, oh, I'm getting it.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

You know what I'm saying? Like, it start. It's starting to settle because I'm being forced into a position to believe it. Like, it's like the Lord is putting me between a rock and a hard place where that stuff is just now, I can't explain it. It's just. It's settling. But I think the temptation can be to give up before the fruit really, like, does its thing. And so I guess Even in the 20 years of you pastoring, even in your life, how have you stayed tethered?

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah, well, I think there's two things people will be tempted to do if we think about maturing in, you know, becoming more like Jesus. The first would be to just walk. The one I see most frequently, though, in the church world is what I would just call. And I don't think this is my term. I just don't know where I got it. I'll call spiritual bypass. And so they haven't been through it, but maybe they've read it in the text or they've read a Spurgeon quote about suffering. And what they'll try to do is either with theological language or with Holy Spirit deliverance language. They want to bypass the going through so that they can pretend to know, and it ain't the same thing. Like, to cognitively in your prefrontal cortex, know that, lo, I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for your rod and staff protect me. It's one thing to have that verse in your prefrontal cortex. It's another thing to have walked through the valley of the shadow of death and found yourself fearing no evil. Because the presence of God was unique and present in a way that you had not experienced before. Because he ain't giving you grace for what you might go through. He gives you grace for what you do go through. And so I think I often say to the men and women at the village, if you don't quit, you win. If you don't quit, you win one day at a time. And if that's too much, then one hour at a time. And the promise of the Lord and the story of his character is that he will not leave you, nor forsake you, if not abandon you. He sworn by his own name to get you safely home. He started this. He'll finish this. But when did he say he would finish it? The coming. The coming. Which means however long you've been a Christian, until you stop breathing or he returns, he's at work. So I saw this video years ago of J.I. packer, like 80, something like not, not long before he died, they were asking him just about what his faith looked like. And his whole talk was on repentance. Like, what was this? 80 year old Ji Packer, how you. I thought he stopped repenting when he was 50, but he was talking about being so agitated and so frustrated at his age that his mind couldn't do things and that his body couldn't do things that he was still hungry to do and that, that, that frustration had led him into some sin and so he had been just repenting of his sin. That's what his faith looked like. I'm like 80 year old Ji Packer, like theologian, knowing God, writing monster in the faith is 80 and it's like, dang it, I gotta repent again.

[Preston]

That's amazing.

[Matt Chandler]

And I love that. I loved that moment. It helped me go, oh yeah, I Hope when I'm 80, yeah. My spirit's tender enough to be like, dang it, I'm doing it again.

[Jackie]

Yeah, that's good.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah, that's good.

[Preston]

And I think this book is for every Christian. I mean, becoming like Jesus is something that we all should strive to do. Right. But in the second chapter, literally the point. Right, Literally the point of Christianity. It's such a universal book for every believer. But in the chapter two, you talked about the Beatitudes.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah.

[Preston]

Which was kind of interesting for someone to kind of highlight it in the way that you did. So I think we should go through them.

[Matt Chandler]

I love it.

[Preston]

And also talk about how the Beatitudes help us be. Become like Jesus and so kind of explain what the Beatitudes are and then I guess we can talk about it.

[Jackie]

Quick question. I've never thought of this. What does beatitude mean? Like what, what does that word?

[Matt Chandler]

So beatitude is the eight characteristics of.

[Preston]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

They're a saying. Like a beatitude would be a saying. And, and he's saying in those sayings, basically, I'm making the argument in the book, Jesus didn't come to find these people, he came to make them. So Jesus doesn't like, it ain't like a checklist or A ladder where he's showing up, looking at your life going, okay, they poor in spirit, they got mercy. No, no, no. He's come to make these people. So why I embedded the book in the Beatitudes is because if you wanna know where you're going, you wanna know what this actually looks like? Well, man, look at these eight things. These are the eight things Jesus is forming in you that actually make you more and more like him. And I make the argument that it's like you'll go through them over and over and over and over and over again, but each time you go through, it'll be a little bit different. It would have danced with another one of the Beatitudes. So your experience. So, like, I've been following the lord now for 33 years and I have learned blessed are the poor in spirit about 10,000 times. And I'm sure I've got another lesson on being poor in spirit coming again. But each time I've learned that lesson, I've learned it a bit differently. I've absorbed it a little bit more quickly. It's been from a think about like turning a jewel around in your head, a different facet of lowliness that gets me the kingdom of God. That's the promise. And so that's the Beatitudes. Is Jesus saying, hey, this is the good work I'm going to accomplish in you. That's why he kicks it off that way.

[Preston]

I love what you said. This is a quote in your book. My words are very small, so bear with me. It says, as helpful as checklists are, it is important to note that we should get started that the Beatitudes are not a checklist of spiritual goals. They are not a staircase to heaven, nor a performance aerobic for the super spiritual. They are a portrait of a person. A person. Jesus is forming through us a lifelong spirit empowered process of sanctification.

[Matt Chandler]

That's it.

[Preston]

I love that. Can you break that down? What you mean by that?

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah, we are such a. Maybe it's just Western culture. I think it is. We are a checklist measure. How far have we come? How many steps did we get today? What's our macros? How's. I mean, we measure everything but relationship, which is how you're formed. The presence of Jesus. Relationship, that's harder to measure. And so even the Beatitudes, they feel intentionally like it's going to be hard to grade this one. Like, how do you grade mercy? How do you grade lowliness? How do you know you're there because you're going to have to go. You're going to go through it again. Like, you have to show mercy a million times in your life in this world. Like, you try to draw close and have authentic belonging with any group of people, you're going to need mercy.

[Preston]

It remind me of. My grandmother used to always say, you can't be humble and proud about it.

[Matt Chandler]

There's something there.

[Preston]

She used to always say that. And it's like, how do you measure humility? It's like, oh, I'm real humble now. It's like, how do you.

[Matt Chandler]

The most humble man I know, right. That ain't gonna work.

[Preston]

You know, that's good. That's good.

[Jackie]

Well, let me read it so that we have it in our systems. And so this is Jesus, because it's the red words. Even though the Bible is breathed out by God. Matthew 5. Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain. And when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted. Ouch. For righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and other all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. This is the word of the Lord.

[Matt Chandler]

Amen. It is we.

[Jackie]

We use the word blessed a lot. Yeah, you know, it's a part of our Christian dialect and jargon. How. What is blessing exactly? You know, because I think some people read this blessed as in happy.

[Matt Chandler]

Well, technically speaking, the word there in Greek is happy. Are those the way it's working in the Greek? It seems like the Lord is saying, like he's giving you the objective state of who you are when you're in the process. Like I'm seeing you. It's the way the Lord is watching you.

[Jackie]

Slow down.

[Matt Chandler]

I'm sorry, sis. Say that one more time. Talk to me.

[Preston]

Preach to us.

[Matt Chandler]

So if you look at the Greek word, it is the Greek word for happy. But happy are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Is God, Jesus saying, here's going to be your objective state God's view of you in this process, in this coil of highs and lows. And I always say, I think what's in view there, this is how I write about it. I think what's in view here is not 2026 definition of happiness, but more biblical joy. So 2026 happiness, gosh, just call it happiness over the last multi decade, nonsensical train wreck of cultural issues is almost all built around life circumstances. But biblical joy seems to hold regardless of life circumstances. So what you're being promised in the Beatitudes, and I would say what you're being promised in Christian joy is not that like, again, I'm sounding like a broken record. It's not everything's going to go your way. It's that God will be with you in the mess and that the joy that you have is the presence of your Creator who will not create distance from you and who presses into your failures, your longings, your disappointments, your heartbreaks, your losses, with great comfort, which is the promise to those who mourn. Why? Why do you have Christian joy when you mourn? Well, because you're being comforted by what? The lifting of the loss, Disorientation, discombobulation, heartbreak? No, you go through that, it doesn't lift, you go through. But he's with you through it. And that's the blessedness, that's the happiness, that's the state of the soul.

[Jackie]

Can I ask a question? Is joy an emotion?

[Matt Chandler]

I think it can be. I think it can also be a decision to focus your heart's attention and mind's devotion on what's most true. So I talk a lot in the book about reality, that part of what I'm doing as I go through the coil is I'm reacquainting myself with reality over and over and over again that I'm turning my attention, I'm turning my heart's devotion to what I believe is most true toward the one who sits at the center of reality as its defining king. And joy can be found in making that turn. And then I think the experience of joy, the oil of gladness down the beard, occurs when you've shifted your mindset and heart affection to the one who sits at the center of reality.

[Preston]

Yeah, because. I'm sorry.

[Jackie]

No, go ahead.

[Preston]

Because what I hear, what you've all talked about a lot in chapter two and three, is really perspective, having the right perspective. Because what I hear you saying, even with that, is when you Think about joy. You know, having joy. Sometimes when you're going through something, if you have a perspective that you, you're paying attention to the power of God's presence. I think whatever you go through that would allow you to have joy and peace and all the things. Because I think when I've been going through things, it was way easier for me to focus on what I was going through instead of meditating on the fact of who's with me when I'm going through it. And so I think meditating on the power of presence can help us have

[Matt Chandler]

a different perspective and that I have someone to trust with this. Yes, I think joy is born of that moment. When I get the diagnosis, cancer diagnosis. I have three babies. Yeah, I have a six year old, a four year old and a six month old. Jesus, where am I going with this? Like, where am I going? Like, am I going to this doctor who just said we're going to poison you for the next couple of years and it's probably all you get. Where am I going? Well, I'm going to the one who can hold it. He gives us that place to go, come what may. Doesn't matter what the loss is. It doesn't matter. We have a place to go. And one of the things I've learned in evangelism is that we're surrounded by people who ain't got nowhere to go. We're just surrounded. Like when I started training jiu jitsu, those guys. And I mean, just some roughneck, I mean something, right? If that's your hobby, you know, And I would just after a roll, just be like, hey man, I got some time set aside this afternoon to pray. I'd love to pray for you. Anything I pray for you about. I'd have these men with gauges and like skull tattoos on that start weeping in front of everybody and tell me about their marriage. Tell me about. They got nowhere to go. Yeah, that's real and Christian joy is born that come what may, no matter what happens, no matter how misunderstood I am, you just walk through the Beatitudes. No matter how my heart is broken, no matter how much I'm longing and hungering like he's there, I've got a place to go that's so beautiful and that's. Joy is born of trust.

[Preston]

Yeah, that's one of the two things I've learned about evangelism the most, is the thing that encouraged people when I used to evangelize on the streets is letting them know what they who and what they were created for. And them finding a place of belonging. They just wanted to know, where do I belong in this world? And the fact that the Christian kind of has that, that sense that no matter what we go through, we still have a place and we still have a person that we can go to is huge.

[Jackie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think as somebody who wrestles with Joy often, you know, just being melancholy, doing all the stuff, I think, I think what has helped me is to anticipate that sometimes you have to wait on it, you know, because I think it can be frustrating where it's like, well, I prayed or I read or I was, I fellowshiped, I worshiped. And I'm still unhappy, I'm still sad, I'm still confused. And I think that joy comes in the morning, tells me to anticipate that it is coming, even if it's not coming at the pace that I would prefer. And so I just think that helps to set it, settle and moderate our, even our expectations of stuff. Because I found that even when it does come, it's not like a shot of aa, you know, it's not, it's not, it's a, a settledness that I think is really mysterious because it's, it's something that happens, I think, in the process of clinging and crying and depending where you just experience one weight being lifted and you can't explain why. You know what I'm saying? So I just, I don't know. I just want us to know, like, it's coming in the morning, but it is coming.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah. When I've taught on Christian joy before. In particular when Vince Young won the national title with the Texas Longhorns. I don't know what year it was, like 05 06, they're playing USC and there's this picture. You can Google it after you're done listening or as you listen. I know everybody multitasks, but of Vince Young running into the end zone to score the game winning touchdown right as time expires. And a USC cheerleader or Palm squad member, like, is jumped in the air with her palms up high, yelling like she clearly doesn't understand what just happened. And I think sometimes Christians can think Christian Joy looks like that cheerleader. And like, I don't. Like I am frequently bothered as a pastor. I've tried to shepherd it out of the village as best I can. I don't need you to give Jesus the spirit sprinkles when your world's burning to the ground. Like I always want to point out, and I do this in the book too. I want to point out those prayers in the Bible that I don't hear anybody praying anymore. Like you'd change home groups if certain people in your home group started praying, like Moses, hello, Nehemiah or David or. I mean, those brothers were not. They were frustrated with the Lord and said it then. I wonder if confession. I don't think this is me. I just think I read it somewhere and I don't know. I don't think confession is just telling God the bad stuff we've done. I think sometimes it's just telling them the truth.

[Preston]

Lamenting.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lament. It's like that's the stuff that's gone. The. How long, O Lord? Will you forsake me? Will you forsake me forever? Yeah. Aren't anybody praying like that?

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

I mean, world on fire, life burnt to the ground, and like bumper sticker theology.

[Preston]

Yeah, because I think that theology has to die because I think the Bible tells us that we serve a God who's acquainted with grief. Like, it's not like he himself is not acquainted with sorrows. And so I think he can relate to us in all of the ways in which we show up and exist, you know, ahas and our lows. And so he's with us in the suffering. So, yeah, tell him I'm frustrated. He knows what it feels like to be frustrated.

[Matt Chandler]

So back to. We have somewhere to go.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

And where's Christian joy born? Not only do I have a place to go, but I have a God who can hold this.

[Preston]

That's good.

[Matt Chandler]

He knows it's scary to be us.

[Preston]

That's good.

[Matt Chandler]

That's what the writer of Hebrews is saying.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

We have an empathetic high priest.

[Preston]

That's good. That's good. In chapter three, you talked about, you emphasized being like poor in spirit. And it was very interesting how you talked about being poor in spirit and how it leads to humility and kind of how humility gives us a self awareness of us, a rightful awareness of us. And that was interesting. Can you touch on that?

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah. One. I think there's some theologians that think that the Beatitudes are. They cascade into one another, that one leads to the next, leads to the next, leads to the next. And I think your first time through it does. And then I think afterwards they start dancing together and one's leading to a greater growth than the other, and another one is picking up and strengthening another. And then now you're dancing. But the first time through is everybody starts with being poor in spirit. There's no way that you can come to the Lord. And really the word there in Greek, it's beggarly. Right. Isn't that wild? It is not just low.

[Preston]

So you had me googling this morning. I was reading chapter three this morning.

[Jackie]

I was like, beggarly, I'm a beggar in the street.

[Preston]

And then you start to break down like all the. I was like, this is good.

[Matt Chandler]

God wants me to beg beggarly, but delighted him, but beggarly. The Lord honors lowliness. He honor. I mean, through Genesis to Revelation, he honors lowliness. And so, like in my own life, I don't always want, like, here I am, you know, 30 something years into following Him. Sometimes I'm looking for ways to get low. Like, instead of just him handing me the lowness, I'm trying to find it where. Where could I fast. Where could I stay low? Where should I keep my mouth shut? Where could I. Right. I'm trying to find those spaces to keep developing that. Because I. Yeah, when he hands it to me, it needs to be a little heavier. Tends to be a little heavier.

[Jackie]

Would you say that the relationship between being poor in spirit and sanctification is that God creates circumstances and trials that produce that dynamic in you?

[Matt Chandler]

Certainly. And then I've created some of those dynamics myself by being a moron. And the Lord, because he's committed to me in Christ, will sometimes let the foolishness of my actions land on me in a way that reminds me that I'm not as smart as I think I am. And I'm not as charismatic as I think I am, not as cute as I think I am. And so there are certainly situations that are beyond me that the Lord pulls into my life. And then there are certain situations where I didn't slow down and listen, and I just thought I knew and I dove head first in and he let me reap. Not, probably not all of it, but enough of it to remember. Yeah, to remember I ain't as smart as I think I am.

[Jackie]

It makes me think about how, like, you know, how Philippians says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling and how I've said this often, how we, we participate with God in sanctification. It's not like we're just passive and not doing nothing. And I think one of the. The ways to participate with him in this is not to resist it. It. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you're, when you're in a situ. Because I, I think if you like me, you don't want to be needy you don't want to be dependent. You don't beg.

[Preston]

Huh?

[Jackie]

Big. You want me to. You know what I'm saying? So you. You try to. You try to control your life in such a way to not be as dependent and as needy as you are. And so to actually lean into it is to actually help, I guess, produce what he says will happen, which is like, blessed are important, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Hold on, I just moved. What that mean? I have never studied this passage ever in my life.

[Matt Chandler]

Jackie, that's surprising. That's surprising.

[Jackie]

You are the commentary.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah. So the kingdom of God is the rule and reign of Jesus. And you stay low, you're going to see the rule and reign of Jesus. Like, you stay low, you'll see his power. You stay low, you'll see. You'll taste his victory. You stay low and you'll push back darkness and see order brought into chaos. It's the kingdom. That's what Jesus came preaching. In fact, as I'm introing the Beatitudes, all Jesus is preaching up until this first banger of a sermon is the kingdom of God has come. The kingdom of God has broken into the world. So he's saying, the rule and reign. My rule and reign is here. And then you just watch him flex on everything, like, you know all the crazy stuff we see in the Old Testament. You don't see a single demon driven out in the Old Testament.

[Jackie]

Yeah, you don't.

[Matt Chandler]

And then here comes Jesus and just flexing, just casting, nobody arguing, nobody. There ain't no dualism there. There's not one that's like, he needs to fast to get it out, you know, he's like, nah. And the kingdom is broken in, and it's here. And the lowly, the poor in spirit, the beggarly in spirit. I have nothing to offer you. They see the kingdom.

[Preston]

Jesus, that's good.

[Matt Chandler]

And he frames it. Because the last Beatitude is what? Persecuted for righteousness sake. What do they get? The kingdom. So I love that. I loved how he bookended that.

[Preston]

I love how being poor in spirit gives us a proper perspective of God. But can you talk about how being poor in spirit gives us a proper perspective of ourselves and how in seeing ourselves rightfully, it can help us be better Christians, better disciples, all of the things.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah, I think there can be if you're living checklist Christianity, which I think would be called moralistic Deism.

[Preston]

Yes, Right.

[Matt Chandler]

If you're living that, then you get to feeling yourself. You really can. You can get into man. You ain't getting high like you used to. You ain't getting drunk like you used to. You ain't looking at porn like you used to. And you get a little. Just get a little swagger in your step. You start feeling yourself. That ain't how the Lord sees it. That's not the Lord's grid. The Lord's about inside out. Which is, again, if we keep reading the Sermon on the Mount, he's going to go hard out.

[Jackie]

Yes, he does.

[Preston]

Right?

[Matt Chandler]

You have heard it said. But I say to you, and what's he always after? The heart. You talking about behavioral modification? I'm talking about transforming your heart. We ain't talking about the same thing.

[Preston]

That's good.

[Matt Chandler]

And so the way that you begin to cultivate pride in your life is when you start grabbing hold of like, moralistic deism. And you're turning this relationship into a checklist so that God owes you something. And now who's the God? If you put God in debt, well, now you just exalted yourself to divine and you've made Jesus your errand boy. But if this is relational and I've come in beggarly, then I see myself rightly so. Even when people, like, if I'm with people who praise me, like, I'm quick to go, oh, brother, you ain't seeing right or sis, I feel like Jacob. I mean, I do. I feel it right. And I feel like a scoundrel on whom the Lord's favor rests. No one's more confused by my life than I am. No one. No one's more fearful for what I'm stewarding than I am. Like, I feel that in my guts. Like, I don't know what this. I don't pretend to. I just want to be near him and love him and I want to just let him do what he wants to do. I just feel terrified in this sometimes. Yeah.

[Preston]

Because I thought about that when I was reading your book about, you know, being like, like poor in spirit. It kind of gives us a. It doesn't allow us to be too high.

[Matt Chandler]

That's right.

[Preston]

And it doesn't allow us to be too low. Because I think we can straddle on two sides of the extreme. It's like you're either really prideful or you're just doing all this self loathing and pity. Pitying.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah. The way we say, the way we talk about it is stay low and stand up.

[Preston]

That's good.

[Matt Chandler]

Stay low and stand up.

[Preston]

That's good. I'm still that.

[Matt Chandler]

No, it's all you I probably did. So it's fine.

[Preston]

Yeah. But it's good because I think. I think being porn spirit gives you a proper perspective of yourself.

[Matt Chandler]

Yeah.

[Preston]

Your own heart. Because God can't use somebody they don't see themselves, you know? And I think it gives us a personal, proper perspective of God. So that's really dope. It's really dope.

[Jackie]

I think before we move to blessed are those who mourn, it immediately made me think of how that changes our understanding or relationship with power.

[Matt Chandler]

For sure.

[Jackie]

You know, just to say, blessed are the poor and spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God. The kingdom breaks in through brokenness and beggarlyness and all the things. I think we think being strong is the way that being smart is the way.

[Matt Chandler]

Or the technique.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Matt Chandler]

Like, it's a technique.

[Jackie]

It's.

[Preston]

It's.

[Jackie]

How can I make it happen when it's like, on my face is how it happens? And that. That takes a lot of reorientation. But I think the Lord is like, yeah, that's kind of great sin. The kingdom is servant of all. You know what I'm saying?

[Matt Chandler]

That's right.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.