Best of WTP – That Time We Broke Up... Twice

Summary

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Podcast Summary: With The Perrys

Episode: Best of WTP – That Time We Broke Up... Twice

Hosts: Jackie Hill Perry & Preston Perry
Date: August 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid, humorous, and deeply honest episode, Jackie and Preston Perry revisit the tumultuous early seasons of their relationship, specifically the two times they broke up before getting married. Drawing on personal experiences, they explore the emotional and spiritual complexities of dating, breaking up, and reconciliation. The Perrys use their story as a lens to discuss mental health, spiritual growth, the impact of family background, and the importance of love-led leadership in relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Topic: "That Time We Broke Up" ([02:04])

• Jackie and Preston set the scene with playful banter, quickly shifting to the episode’s core topic: the two breakups that shaped their relationship.
• Preston frames himself as the “victim” for comedic effect, but both hosts are willing to explore their own faults.

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2. First Breakup: Moving to Chicago & Relationship Fears ([03:30]–[07:00])

• Background: Jackie moves to Chicago for work, facilitated by Preston’s pastor, after years of long-distance dating.
• On her first day in Chicago, Jackie initiates a breakup via text.
  • Jackie: “When we were long distance, I had some element of control...but now that I’m in your city, it felt like an obligation to be like, girlfriend. Ish. And it just scared me.” ([06:04])
  • She traces her anxiety around intimacy to her experiences of fatherlessness and not having learned to accept love from men.
• Both recall the awkwardness of their first post-breakup group hangout where Preston maintained his composure and "friend energy," which unsettled Jackie.

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3. Second Breakup: The Trinidad Trip & Emotional Shutdown ([08:18]–[15:57])

• Setting: Both are in Trinidad for a week-long poetry event. Preston is excited, but Jackie emotionally shuts down.
• Jackie’s Perspective:
  • She describes falling into a deep, unexplained depression, unable to identify it at the time and unsure how mental health and spirituality were entangled.
  • Jackie: “I was just really depressed...I didn’t even know that was depression. I just knew that I was really detached. I was really sad. It felt like despair, but it didn’t have any source.” ([09:17])
• Preston’s Perspective:
  • Struggles to handle Jackie’s withdrawal and later admits to mishandling the situation by trying to “fix” her rather than listen and pray.
  • Preston: “I think the Lord was preparing me to learn how to deal with people’s emotions outside of myself. Like, to really care for somebody who’s going through something that they don’t even know how to process.” ([10:30])

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4. The Critical Conversation: “Like Your Father…” ([12:51]–[15:41])

• Preston attempts a “heart-to-heart” with Jackie, clumsily suggesting she might share emotional issues with her absent father, who was diagnosed bipolar.
• This deeply offends Jackie and significantly worsens her depression.
  • Jackie: “I remember looking at you...He’s literally saying I have the same bipolar issues as my father who neglected me and abandoned me.” ([13:33])
  • Preston (reflecting): “It wasn’t malicious, but at the same time, it wasn’t thoughtful. I didn’t consider you at that moment at all.” ([14:30])

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5. Learning from the Past: How Would They Respond Now? ([16:01]–[18:45])

• Preston’s growth: He would listen, ask questions, offer lightness, and—most importantly—pray before acting, rather than trying to diagnose or fix Jackie’s emotions.
• Jackie’s growth: She would better articulate her feelings, invite support, rely on prayer, and practice self-awareness.
  • Jackie reflects on the value of therapy and learning to name emotions.

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6. A Relationship Pattern: Avoiding “Light” Conversations ([20:19]–[21:27])

• Jackie highlights Preston’s hyper-spiritual approach to all conversations, saying it made casual interaction impossible and contributed to her anxiety.
  • Jackie: “All this laughter and Kiki and Haha? Like, that wasn’t there before. When we was friends, you were fun, and now you’re, like, Pastor Perry all the time.” ([21:13])

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7. Breakup to Breakthrough: Airport Departure & Final Split ([22:41]–[25:24])

• Jackie delivers the crushing line:
  • Jackie: “You know what? I just don’t even know why I’m with you.” ([22:47])
• After a tense, silent journey home, they part ways—Jackie drives home, Preston takes the bus, both feeling defeated.

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8. Reconciliation: Pastoral Guidance & Holy Spirit Intervention ([26:51]–[31:36])

• Preston’s Discouragement: Shares his hurt with friends and prays a “fake prayer,” showing his emotional fatigue.
• Intervention: Their pastor, Brian, calls Preston, urging him to recall God’s love for him and to seek the Lord sincerely regarding Jackie.
  • Preston: “He just affirmed me...You don’t want to run away from tough, because on the other side of tough is beauty.” ([28:18])
• Resolution: After sincerely praying, Preston simply texts Jackie: “I love you.”
  • Jackie: “For you to respond with I love you was so contrary to even my father...I had never known a man who just loved that way. And so, to me, it was like, oh, wow, we have to get married.” ([31:03])

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9. Olive Branch: The Salmon Meal and Decision to Marry ([32:54]–[34:18])

• Jackie invites Preston over, offers him a home-cooked meal as a peace gesture.
• During that meal, Preston feels divinely reassured:
  • Preston: “As soon as we sat down and started talking...and started to joke and just be friends, in my mind, I said, I’m gonna marry this girl.” ([33:52])

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10. Lessons Learned: Love-Led Leadership & Relationship Hardships ([34:49]–[40:41])

• Perseverance: Both urge listeners that working through "hard" in relationships is formative—“People run away from hard so easily, and it’s the hard things that actually shape us and mold us...as couples.” ([37:09])
• Distinguishing Hard from Toxic: Jackie distinguishes between working through normal relational challenges and staying in abusive or toxic situations.
• Growth through Mutual Brokenness: Preston admits his spiritual pride; Jackie credits his soft, loving leadership (“I love you” text) for allowing her to open up.
• Spiritual Application: They draw a parallel with the gospel, explaining how Jesus’ love—not law or correction—transforms hearts.

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11. Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “She's a runner, she's a track star.” – Preston’s humor about Jackie’s habit of avoiding relationships ([06:59])
• “The only way this will work is if you depend on me...I wanna give you wisdom in a particular way to love and to care for Jackie and give Jackie the care that she wants.” – Preston on learning to lead with humility ([17:14])
• “People don’t care what you know until they know that you care.” – Preston’s grandmother’s timeless wisdom ([42:12])
• “That is what Jesus did...there’s this reversal dynamic where you loving me opened me, where you loving me changed me, where you loving me allowed me to submit and respond to you.” – Jackie tying their story to the gospel ([41:05])
• Heart Fingers & Banter: “Heart fingers. You love me still?” – Preston
  “Of course. What do you mean? We got four kids.” – Jackie ([43:30])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Banter: [01:04]–[02:04]
• First Breakup - Moving to Chicago: [03:30]–[07:00]
• Second Breakup - Trinidad: [08:18]–[15:57]
• Critical Conversation (“Like Your Father…”): [12:51]–[15:41]
• Relationship Growth & Lessons: [16:01]–[18:45]
• Hyper-Spirituality in Early Dating: [20:19]–[21:27]
• Final Breakup at Airport: [22:41]–[25:24]
• Pastoral Intervention & Reconciliation: [26:51]–[31:36]
• Olive Branch - Salmon Meal: [32:54]–[34:18]
• Lessons on Love-led Leadership: [34:49]–[42:12]
• Heart Fingers & Wrap Up: [43:30]–[44:04]

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Conclusion

This episode of "With The Perrys" offers an authentic, relatable portrait of early love, marked by fear, misunderstanding, spiritual learning, and the redemptive power of persistent love. The Perrys’ candid storytelling, self-deprecation, and faith-based insights remind listeners that real relationships involve vulnerabilities, mistakes, apologies, and above all, choosing to love well—even when it’s hard.

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Transcript

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[Jackie]

Happy Monday to y', all, wherever you are. If you're driving in your car, if you're washing dishes, if you're. We have a lot of people that, like, watch this on YouTube with, like, their friends, and they take notes and things.

[Preston]

I've been seeing a lot of people, like, record, record them, like, listen to our podcast. I said, like, taking walks, like, on trails.

[Jackie]

Yeah, that's really nice.

[Preston]

Yeah, I'm like, I'm not one of them people.

[Jackie]

I would stress my own self out listening to me. Like, I wouldn't be able to pay attention to nature. But I do appreciate you inviting us into your. Your self care regimens.

[Preston]

Right, right.

[Jackie]

As a regimen. I don't know. Anyway, you see the blush on my face?

[Preston]

You happy to see me? Is that what. Is that what it is?

[Jackie]

No, it's makeup. You see the blush on my face? Black people don't blush. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Preston]

It's nice.

[Jackie]

Okay. Cause blush. I've been trying it out because it makes me feel alive.

[Preston]

You look cute.

[Jackie]

I appreciate it. What was I f. To say? I don't got nothing to open with. You got some.

[Preston]

When we just go into the conversation.

[Jackie]

Okay, so we want to talk about the time we broke up.

[Preston]

It was rough.

[Jackie]

Why?

[Preston]

Because you put me through it.

[Jackie]

I see what we're not going to do.

[Preston]

No, no, no, no. You put me through it. Let's talk about it.

[Jackie]

We're not going to refocus the energy. Yes.

[Preston]

I'm the victim here.

[Jackie]

Go ahead.

[Preston]

I'm the victim.

[Jackie]

What happened?

[Preston]

So, man, the first time me and Jackie. Well, the first time I got invited to do poetry outside the country, I was actually dating Jackie and we Got invited to do poetry. I think it was, like, how many days? Six or seven days in Trinidad and Tobago. And I'm so excited. I'm like, yo, I'm thinking about proposing to this girl soon. We finna be in Trinidad. It's gonna be beautiful. We gonna see, like, mangoes hanging from trees. You know what I'm saying? I ain't never. I'm from the south side of Chicago where they do that. You know what I' you know what I mean? And, like, we got there, you know, and we get settled in, and Jackie just completely shuts down. I'm like, what did I do? And so, like, everybody asked me, is Shaq okay?

[Jackie]

Okay, so let's pause. Let's rewind. What? Because if this was a movie or a documentary, you just fast forwarded to min minute 20.

[Preston]

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Jackie]

We need to.

[Preston]

Let's pull it in. Let's.

[Jackie]

I appreciate you getting straight to the point, but we at least got to make this 30 minutes at.

[Preston]

Where did I leave out?

[Jackie]

You done moved us, right? Where did I leave out? So chapter 17. Okay, let's back up. So we started dating.

[Preston]

Okay.

[Jackie]

Maybe 2000. I was 23, so that's probably 20, 21 when we started dating, because we got married when I was 24. We were only dating and engaged for a year and a half.

[Preston]

Okay. Yeah, I think he was 22.

[Jackie]

Okay, so we started dating. I moved to Chicago. That's the first time we broke up. Okay. When I moved to Chicago.

[Preston]

Oh, yeah, let's talk about that. I was a victim there, too. So listen, Jackie was living in St. Louis, right? And we started dating long distance. And, you know, my pastor at the time was like, yo, I kind of see you and Jackie working. Like, I see your personality, I see her personality. I don't really think a lot of dudes can, like, deal with Jackie, but I know you can. Yada, yada, yada. And I'm like, yeah, I really like this girl. Like, you know what I'm saying? He was like, I'm gonna give her a job in Chicago. So what he did was he got. I think he was working at Wendy's in St. Louis. And he was like, yo, I'm get Jackie a job.

[Jackie]

Bacon frosty, sour cream and chive potatoes. Small chili, medium chili, large chili.

[Preston]

So you remember the menu, right?

[Jackie]

I worked there for six years of my life. By the way, the meat is real. I be telling people that. Cause I worked at rallies, too. Or checkers for some people.

[Preston]

Like, how you know to be real?

[Jackie]

Cause it's raw and bloody. It's not frozen.

[Preston]

I'm saying it could be kangaroo meat.

[Jackie]

You don't know. Go ahead. I know you done had a big. Not big. Buford was a Baconator. It tasted real, didn't it?

[Preston]

I probably have. I don't remember.

[Jackie]

There was this dude that used to come in there and order a extra large Baconator with an extra large fry. A pep, not a Pepsi. We had Coke products. A Coke and a Frosty. And he would bash it. And I'm just still concerned. I wonder.

[Preston]

I hope he's still alive.

[Jackie]

Cause the amount of sodium and cholesterol.

[Preston]

Sheesh.

[Jackie]

Go ahead.

[Preston]

His artist was just like.

[Jackie]

I was. Why you always turning into, like a pterodactyl or something?

[Preston]

It's arteries.

[Jackie]

I was at Wendy's. Brian asked me if I wanted to work in Chicago.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

So I moved to Chicago.

[Preston]

You moved to Chicago. And like, the day you moved to Chicago, you sent me a text, was like, yeah, I don't know if this is gonna work out. I just. I don't know what you said, but you just broke up with me like the first day. We didn't even see each other yet. I was like, I know we gonna see each other tomorrow. She just broke.

[Jackie]

Because it.

[Preston]

It's like, wow.

[Jackie]

It felt. It felt. Because I think when we were long distance is like I had some element of control. Like, you know, I could text you when I wanted to text you or respond or call and all the things. But it was like, now that I'm in your city, it felt like an obligation to be like, girlfriend. Ish. And it. It just scared me. So I rather.

[Preston]

Oh, you scared. You scared of me?

[Jackie]

Yeah. I didn't have a dad. I don't know how to do this. What do you mean? I am traumatized when it comes to male pursuit.

[Preston]

I should be laughing at your fatherlessness.

[Jackie]

I didn't have one to teach me how to receive love from a man.

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Yeah.

[Preston]

I didn't have a dad. I was scared,

[Jackie]

so I ran. Okay. I'm a runner. That's what I did.

[Preston]

She's a runner. She's a track star.

[Jackie]

And then I remember I felt away because I was staying with T.J. and. Oh, that was funny. Why? It was just.

[Preston]

It was really funny how you said I didn't have a dad.

[Jackie]

That's true.

[Preston]

Okay, okay, okay. Keep going. Keep going.

[Jackie]

I was staying at T.J. and Jessica House, and you had. They had invited. Cause we all. We still went to same church. They had invited some people over the house and you was over there and,

[Preston]

like, it was so awkward.

[Jackie]

I was uncomfortable, or I was. I wasn't used to you giving me friend energy and, like. Like, friend. Like, not even, like a close friend. So, like, you came in and you just said, like, what's up? And then, like, sat on the other end of the couch.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

I kept a real play, like, talking to other people, and I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, that's what we're doing. Yeah.

[Preston]

Cause the thing. The thing I'm not going to do, it's gonna be like, she broke up with me. I was like, I knew you was my wife, but I wasn't finna go in and be, like, all in your face. I was like, what's up?

[Jackie]

I didn't like that.

[Preston]

I know.

[Jackie]

And so we kept it real. We had to revisit this conversation about breaking up, where we sat in the car and we talked about it, and you said something ridiculous like, I'm always gonna keep pursuing you or something like that.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Which scared me even more.

[Preston]

I know I wasn't helping.

[Jackie]

We're here. Okay. Second time.

[Preston]

The second time we broke up, right? We go to Trinidad, and at some

[Jackie]

point, we got to bring in Jesus in scripture so that this is edifying. It's coming. I don't know where, but it's coming.

[Preston]

We go to Trinidad, and this is my first time out of the country. I'm really excited. I'm going to see mangoes. I'm going to see wild lizards for the first time and not rats. Because I lived on the south side of Chicago. I was so excited. I had, like, you know, the whole trip planned out. We go to Trinidad for seven days to do poetry. The first day we get there, you just completely shut down. And I'm like, what's happening?

[Jackie]

Not the first day.

[Preston]

It was the first day.

[Jackie]

Oh, it was the first day.

[Preston]

I remember.

[Jackie]

Okay.

[Preston]

I was. I'm still wounded a little bit.

[Jackie]

Okay. I'm sorry about that.

[Preston]

But no, like, you just completely shut down, and I'm like, what's going on? Like, what? Like, why? Like, why is this. You know what I'm saying? Why is this happening right now? So I tried to talk to you, and I remember going to your room and asking you, like, what was. What was the issue?

[Jackie]

So let me tell you from my vantage point, right? So we arrive. Everything is all good and well, all the things. Again, I'm not a new believer, but I'm, like, a new believer in knowing how to navigate my emotions and even my mental health. And so when we Got there. For some reason, I was just really depressed. And I could not. At that point, I didn't even know that was depression. I just knew that I was really detached. I was really sad. It felt like despair, but it didn't have any source. It wasn't like I was triggered into sadness. It wasn't like anything happened. And so for me, I didn't know what to do except to be mean. You get what I'm saying? It's like, I don't want to talk, I don't want to be bothered. I don't want to do none of that type stuff. And I didn't have even the education to know how the enemy can use mental health and emotions to just mess up stuff. You know what I'm saying? And I'm not saying it wasn't hormonal. I'm not saying. I think mental health and spiritual dynamics, I think they are very much interconnected in a way that we can't even, like, delineate sometimes.

[Preston]

Yeah, yeah. Cause I think. Not to go on a tangent, but I really think that once we realize that we're holistic beings, God did not create us to be human without spirit and emotions. And, like, our physical being will always affect our spiritual self, our mental self. And I think it's all interconnected. And so, like, I didn't. I didn't even know that then. And I. And I. And I've joked and said even a couple seconds ago how I was a victim, but I think in a lot of ways, the Lord kind of just showed me a lot about myself during that time. Because one, I think the Lord was preparing me to learn how to deal with people's emotions outside of myself. Like, to really care for somebody who's going through something that they don't even know how to process. Right. I didn't know how to deal with that. And also, too, the Lord was kind of showing me my selfishness because it was kind of like, oh, I remember going to your room and I'm asking you, like, you know, what's wrong? And you kind of being mean to me, and me responding in a way that was just.

[Jackie]

So explain how you responded.

[Welch's Fruit Snacks Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving Them go back to school. With Welch's fruit snacks, now made with no artificial dyes.

[UPS Store Announcer]

Class is now in session and the UPS store is here to help you ace. Arriving on campus, our certified packing experts can pack everything you need, from desktops to decor. Plus, when you pack and ship with us, you get our exclusive pack and ship guarantee. Your items arrive safe or your money back. Restrictions and limitations apply. To get a 20% off package coupon and for full details, visit the upsstore.com

[Preston]

packing yeah, so I'm not proud of it.

[Jackie]

First of all, good godly grief.

[Preston]

You know, you. You said something along the lines of, I don't know why I want to. I don't even know why I want fast forwarding. Okay, okay. Well, okay, remind me.

[Jackie]

You came in the room, first of all, you came in the room like a dad finna have a talk with their five year old.

[Preston]

Oh, man.

[Jackie]

It was like that. Like, was I like that? We're about to have a real.

[Preston]

I was real Carl Winslow.

[Jackie]

It was just like it was giving heart to heart, like, you know, we're about to have one of those. And then like you said, on the edge of the bed again, fatherly. And you was like, you know how you talk about how your dad.

[Preston]

That's what I was about to say.

[Jackie]

Was diagnosed bipolar. You was like, have you ever thought about that you might be like him in that way? Cause you always talk about how your dad, like how he wasn't present and how he was attached to how he was. Like, have you ever thought about how, like you're the same way? That that was the phrasing, that you're the same way?

[Preston]

No, no, no.

[Jackie]

And I remember looking at you like, no, I didn't say that.

[Preston]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Jackie]

I remember looking at you. Wait, I had no reaction because I'm like, oh, he's. He's literally bipolar issues. Like my father who neglected me and abandoned me all of my life.

[Preston]

You just made me laugh.

[Jackie]

Double trigger. You.

[Preston]

You trying to make me laugh.

[Jackie]

Like, how offensive is this?

[Preston]

Oh, man. Why did I say that?

[Jackie]

Why did you say it?

[Preston]

So here's the thing. So here's the thing.

[Jackie]

I think now that I know you, I think you were really trying to be helpful.

[Preston]

I was, I was trying. I was trying.

[Jackie]

Cause you didn't say it mean at all. I didn't say it. Have you ever thought about how you might be just like your dad?

[Preston]

So both. Our pastor at the time, he used to always tell me, preston, God is going to Use you greatly. But you are, in a lot of ways a Peter.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Preston]

You don't know how to not. You just let stuff fly out of your mouth. You're very imposing. And so for me, like, I was like. I think it was a mixture of irritation. I'm going to be honest. It was a mix of irritation. But I also was like, oh, I got to help her. See? And so, like, it was kind of like me. Let me be honest. I didn't know how to lead. I think that's what the Lord showed me. Even looking back at the time, it's like, I wanted to help you, but at the same time, I wasn't over how affected I was by your actions. And so I was like, how can I help her? And so it wasn't malicious, but at the same time, it wasn't thoughtful. Like, I didn't consider you at that moment at all. And so. Yeah, look, it's a long time ago. I don't think I was trying to be mean.

[Jackie]

No, I don't think you were.

[Preston]

Yeah. I'm so sorry.

[Jackie]

It just.

[Preston]

I feel bad.

[Jackie]

It basically made everything worse.

[Preston]

It made everything worse.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Like, if the depression was like a 4, it was a strong 9 after that. Cause it's like, oh, this what we doing? You know what I'm saying? So I just kind of went back into my hole and was pretty. Pretty kind of content with not letting you there anymore.

[Preston]

Yeah. I'm so sorry now. I got in eventually.

[Jackie]

Sure. In hindsight or not even hindsight, like, thinking of yourself now, if that were to happen now, what would. How would you respond differently? Because it doesn't happen. Because I've learned, too. So I can talk about me, but, like, how would you.

[Preston]

I think if it was now, I think I would have. I think I would have. The first thing I would have done was sat with you and, like, really listen to you and ask questions instead of offering what I think the issue is, you know, and helps you process. Cause when you're going through stuff now as a leader and a person, your husband who loves you, I know how to ask you questions to help you process how you feel. And then sometimes, because we've been married so long, I've just learned how to make you laugh at times. I've learned maybe she doesn't even need to talk. She just needs to. For me to come in and crack a joke and lighten the mood up and then for her to be able to come to me on her own, you know, and that just came with, like, nine years going on 10 years of marriage and all of these years of friendship. But I just didn't know that at the time. You know what I'm saying? And so also too, I would have prayed. I would have prayed before I went in the room.

[Jackie]

That's great.

[Preston]

And I didn't. Because it's been in times in our marriage, I'm like, okay, Jackie's going through something. I know you can be a very blunt person. You can be a very direct person. And that's the reason why when we first got. When we first started talking, all of my friends was like, y' all ain't gonna work. Y' all too bullheaded people. Y' all too strong willed people. Y' all not gonna work. And the Lord had to show me that the only way this will work is if you depend on me, is if you come to me, is if I can. Like, yeah, I wanna soften you in a way, and I wanna give you wisdom in a particular way to love and to care for Jackie and give Jackie the care that she want. Looking back, it was like, no. Like, the Lord was just teaching me how to depend on him when it came to loving a woman.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Preston]

And so I think that's. That's some of the things I would have changed.

[Jackie]

I think you saying prayer is so simple, but it's actually really fundamental to what could have created unity and clarity in that situation. Because I'm thinking to myself, I don't even think I prayed. You know, like, I'm sad. I'm disheartened. I'm feeling like, you know all the things. And I don't. I don't think I went to God. I think I went to my. Because I think one, when you are a thinker, but also a strategist, you try to think your way through your emotions. When oftentimes that's not how you get out of the situation. You know what I'm saying? Because I didn't. I had to go to therapy to even learn how to put language, to feeling like I would feel, but I didn't know what the feeling was. Like, I remember she gave me a chart one time and she was like, tell me. Look at the chart and tell me how you're feeling. It's not just sad. It's a particular kind of sad. Right?

[Preston]

Yeah. We're so complex.

[Jackie]

Yeah. And so I think now I know one. I can sometimes anticipate what situations might create those kinds of emotional days, if that makes sense. Like if I'm triggered by something or like if I'm sad about something or if it's like heavy ministry and I know where to go, I'll say, lord, I need your joy. That's a fruit of the spirit. Right. Like I need your self control to think on what is true and to think on what is right and to think on what is worthy of praise. Like, I need people. I didn't let anybody in to what was happening with me. I was just dealing with it by myself. And so now I will not only tell you, hey, this is what I'm going through, but I have a collection of people that I will say, pray for me or can you process with me? And then I would have gotten my word. I would have been. I would have tried to meditate on the goodness of God. And that doesn't mean that, that that necessarily makes depression go away, but I think it, it allows it to lose some of its grip.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

And some of its power. Especially if it's connected to some type of like spiritual warfare, then it definitely has no authority at that point.

[Preston]

That's good. So that's good. I kind of eliminate the question I was going to ask you.

[Jackie]

What was it?

[Preston]

It was, you know, what would you have done differently?

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Preston]

And so that's the crazy thing is it got worse.

[Jackie]

People don't realize that yet. Cause that's when we were watching basketball and it was spurs and somebody.

[Preston]

Miami Heat. Yeah, that's when. Yeah, LeBron beat Miami Spurs.

[Jackie]

But I wouldn't know those details, but we were doing something and you said something to me.

[Preston]

You kind of got over it a little bit and you came out to watch the game with me, but she was still mad at me.

[Jackie]

Yeah, I don't know what happened. I just. Maybe you brought something up and you wanted to talk about something deep. Because another thing people don't know is that the first year of us dating, you never wanted to have a normal conversation that wasn't around. You trying to fix me or preach to me or lecture me or like do something spiritual. That had to deal with my issues and my sin and my flaws and my insecurities.

[Preston]

In my mind. We had to get it right. We had to get it right.

[Jackie]

So even entering into conversation with you gave me anxiety because it wasn't going to be light. All this laughter and Kiki and Haha. Like that wasn't there before. It's like when we was friends, you were fun and now you're like Pastor Perry all the time.

[Preston]

I was like. Because I was like, man, I'm going to be the priest of this home.

[Jackie]

Yeah, but go put blood on the altar and look at it and say, she's good. She's redeemed. Anyway.

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[Jackie]

I Got Mad at you for something, and I. I turned to you and I was like, you know what? I just don't even know why I'm with you.

[Preston]

I was like.

[Jackie]

Like, I don't even know why we're doing this. And it. I remember it felt gratifying to say that, wow, that's really evil. It is. But it felt.

[Preston]

You should repent.

[Jackie]

No, I think I was angry, and I. And not even necessarily at you. I. I think I was dealing with some form of anger. But when you called me my daddy, it's like, oh, now all of this energy and this turmoil, I gotta put it somewhere because I wasn't putting it at Jesus feet. So I put it on you.

[Preston]

I shouldn't have did that.

[Jackie]

It's okay.

[Preston]

It's all right. I'm gonna let go of shame.

[Jackie]

No, you should, because that was like, 13 years ago or 12. It was a long time ago.

[Preston]

Yeah. Nah, like, I. I don't know. I don't know why that situation was so rough. It was. It was really, really tough. I just know when you told me that, though, I just felt, like, deflated. I was like, yo, I'm doing all I think I should be doing. Like, why. Why is this so tough? And I just remember, like, in my mind saying, okay, this girl doesn't want to be with me. One moment she does, the other moment she doesn't. Okay, I'm just gonna kind of, like, let it go. And I remember contemplating all that night. Should I just kind of, like, let this Go. And also, too, dealing with the fact that my whole Trinidad trip was ruined.

[Jackie]

Oh, wow. So moving forward, we stopped talking. Oh, you finna say something.

[Preston]

But remember at the. At the airport?

[Jackie]

Right. I was gonna say, okay, that night, we went our separate ways or whatever in the same, like, house. And we had to go to the airport. We didn't talk on the flight. We didn't talk in baggage claim, and I guess I said something smart, and you, like, snapped at me, and it was like, rah, rah. Like, it was.

[Preston]

That was the first time I ever, like, like, said something to you, and you didn't say anything back, and it shocked me.

[Jackie]

Because you got testosterone. I'm okay. Cause.

[Preston]

What does that mean?

[Jackie]

Because I think when a man gets mad. Cause there's levels to. To masculine madness or masculine anger. There's like, he mad, but he ain't that mad. Then it's like, oh, he getting mad. But, like, I like this mad because you. You made me mad. And then there's mad, like, man, if he was an abuser, I might be abused. It was like that. It was giving. He might.

[Preston]

I would never.

[Jackie]

That might be too far. But it was. It just. I knew that that wasn't the time.

[Preston]

He was like, okay, well, yeah, it

[Jackie]

is what it is. It's cool. Be mad, and I'm gonna go home.

[Preston]

Okay.

[Jackie]

So, yeah, I went home.

[Preston]

And I went home.

[Jackie]

I had a car, and you had a bus ticket.

[Preston]

Oh, wow. Wow.

[Jackie]

Jokes on you.

[Preston]

Whoa.

[Jackie]

Catch a ride.

[Preston]

First of all. First of all, why are you trying to throw me under the bus? Pun intended. It was Chicago, Right. Public transportation was a thing.

[Jackie]

Yeah. You had a lot of access to walk.

[Preston]

I was saving money anyway.

[Jackie]

I mean, you worked at Radio Shack, so what else is there to do if not save?

[Preston]

First of all, if I didn't talk my past into letting you move to Chicago to get you a good job,

[Jackie]

I would have still been at Wendy's.

[Preston]

You would have still been at Wendy's, but the Lord. See how I'm saying. But do you see how I was being selfless even before we got married?

[Jackie]

Gifts make.

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie]

You know what I'm saying?

[Preston]

I didn't say, give me a job. I said, get her job.

[Jackie]

That was good. You know what I'm saying? I don't have a response to it. Right. I was, I'mma walk, but them batteries was like, you had a thick check selling people remote backs. Okay, I lost my remote back, sir. Do you have any for my Sony X25? Yeah. Yeah, I got that. That's your commission. Check is remote back.

[Preston]

Hey, look, look, first of all, it was a long time ago, but I still love that job.

[Jackie]

Cell phone, Cell phone cases. It's cool, go ahead.

[Preston]

I gave a lot of people the gospel, work in the Radio Shack. But look.

[Jackie]

And batteries.

[Preston]

I remember.

[Jackie]

And Live Strong bracelets. You such a jerk.

[Preston]

You such a jerk, G. Look, I remember, like, saying, like, I'm done with this girl. I got back to the States and my friend had a. A party at a bowling alley, a birthday party at a bowling alley. And everybody was like, what y'? All can. I was like, I don't know. We broke up. And they was like, what? I was like, yeah, we. You know what I'm saying? Like, my sister was like, you just told me, like last month you was thinking about proposing. I was like, yeah, like, it didn't work out. You know what I'm saying? We broke up. Her friend was like, why y' all break up? And I was like, she don't wanna be with me no more. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, probably hurt to say. I went home, prayed about it, but I didn't do like a real prayer. I did one of them fake prayers.

[Jackie]

What's that?

[Preston]

I. I felt like I had to acknowledge the Lord, but like, I ain't really, like, seeking. I ain't really seek him, you know what I'm saying? And then I got a call from Brian.

[Jackie]

It tells me that the Lord still heard it. Did you ever think about that?

[Preston]

No.

[Jackie]

Because for you to throw up that little shallow, half hearted prayer and then for the Lord to immediately respond by sending you Brian to call you, it's like the Lord still. He's still good and generous in that way. Even when we give him ragged prayers,

[Preston]

he answers, oh, come on now. I was like, lord, I tried. Tried to do what you told me to do. You know what I'm saying? She don't want me. Thank you.

[Jackie]

We had the divine will period. He's like, they got to get married and have four kids, right? So.

[Preston]

And then Brian called me and really challenged me. And he was like, what did he say?

[Jackie]

You're skipping things.

[Preston]

He challenged me. I was going to say he. He challenged me. He basically said, you know, he just showed me all the ways in which the Lord loved my little raggedy self, you know, after everything that I did, like, that was my disciple. He knew all my business. I mean, I came from nothingness, you know what I'm saying? And the Lord really loved Me and pursued me and cared for me. And he was like, you've been through tough stuff like this. He was like, jackie didn't hurt your feelings that bad. And I'm like, first of all, you trying to comfort me. You know what I'm saying? And he was like, no, I really think you're called to this woman. He was like, I watched your life, and I watched her life. He was like, he just affirmed me. It was like, you have integrity. You love the Lord. You are a man of your convictions. So is Jackie a woman of her convictions. And he was like, this is tough. And he was like, but you don't want to run away from tough, because on the other side of tough is beauty. And I was like, ah, I do not like you, bro. And he said, I'm not going to tell you to, you know, get back with her. I want you just to really pray. And I was like, I prayed. And he was like, no, I really. I want you to seek the Lord, Lord. So that next day I prayed when I got up in the morning, and I felt like the Lord was just, like, convicting my heart of giving up so fast. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And so I think it was, like, going into, like, the. The afternoon and the Lord, like, I literally felt like the Lord laid it on my heart to just text you, I love you. And I just said, okay, I don't want to do this. And I just said I love you in a text and sent it. And. Yeah.

[Jackie]

Yeah. So I was at work, I think, with Brian. So context. Brian Dye was both of our pastors, but he was also my boss at GRIP Outreach for Youth, which was a nonprofit organization I worked for. And so at the same time that he would be pastoring us, he also was pastoring me while managing me. And so I could not escape some type of pastoral authority at any time. And so I think we were in our Monday meetings, which were actually just discipleship meetings, and you had. I looked at my phone and I saw your name. 1. I was just surprised to see your name. And then I had anxiety on what. What would be attached to it. And I think I wrote this about. About this in my book. I'm sure I did.

[Preston]

I think you did.

[Jackie]

I had to, because this was pretty monumental and pivotal for our relationship. But I saw your name, and then I had anxiety, and then I just saw, like, I love you. And I think I just started crying, maybe out of shock, because it was like, I just kind of, like, played this, man. You know what I'M saying it's the clearing of the throat that we don't have to do.

[Preston]

I'm just saying I had something in my throat.

[Jackie]

You need some throat coat.

[Preston]

I know. I'm saying I ate some muffins earlier.

[Jackie]

Anyway, I've just rejected him pretty intensely right out of my own fear and albeit out of even my own stuff that you also didn't manage or steward well. But either way, I still responded to you in a way that did not dignify you or even honor the the degree to which you were trying to lead me and care for me and for you to respond with I love you was so contrary to even my father because I didn't do anything and my father still left. And so I think for you to show me that you were so not like any man I had ever known, literally, I had never known a man who just loved that way. And so to me it was like, oh, wow, we have to get married. Like, what else is there to do at this point?

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[UPS Store Announcer]

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[Preston]

packing Speaking of that, though, like you, I forget what the text message said. Like, I think I sent you a long one. You sent me a long text apologizing, but you said, would you please come over the house? I think, think the next day. I came over the next day. And when I walked in the house

[Jackie]

in the daytime, okay, in the daytime, we gotta have boundaries.

[Preston]

We was pure because if it was

[Jackie]

kinda, if it was, we were pure, we were pure. Ish. But if it was after 6:30pm it would have just been not good.

[Preston]

And I came in and Jackie had like a whole little meal situation, like prepared for you.

[Jackie]

It wasn't that great.

[Preston]

It was really pretty.

[Jackie]

It was Fish and salt.

[Preston]

It was. It was like a nice salmon. But you decorated it. You had, like, the little drizzle, the little designs. I said, she a little artist.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Your standard was low.

[Preston]

Listen, I was eating Harold's chicken every day.

[Jackie]

I know.

[Preston]

And Wendy's.

[Jackie]

I appreciate it, though.

[Preston]

And so it was really, really good. And I guess that was your way of saying, you know, it's my olive branch. Yeah, your olive branch. And what was crazy, I didn't tell you this at the time. As soon as we sat down and started talking and I started eating food or whatever, and we started to, like, joke and just be friends, in my mind, I said, I'm gonna marry this girl. Like, literally, it was kind of like, oh, okay.

[Jackie]

People might think you're nuts.

[Preston]

Why? Why you say that?

[Jackie]

Okay, just playback everything we just said, okay? Like, we. I moved to Chicago. I dumped you. We get back together. We go to Trinidad. We get into this argument. I said, I don't want to be with you. And then we break up. And then I cooked you a salad and some fish. And then in your mind, you say, oh, this is my wife. Like, you need to walk us through how that's not idiotic. Not idiocy. That's the word.

[Preston]

I think it's a culmination of a couple of things. One, I'm not to. I say this very humbly. In a lot of ways, I'm kind of built like that. Yes, Right, Right. I am. Like, I've been through so much that, like, somebody, like, boo. Booing on me a little bit ain't gonna make me cry. But at the same time, even when I was, like, done, done, I don't want people to think that I'm such a good man. Well, I was like, I'm gonna pursue you relentlessly. Like, no. Like, I was like, after Trinidad, I was done. But I want people to understand, like, a good man is not a good man in and of itself. A good man is somebody who's led by the Holy Spirit. And so, like, that was the Lord. Like, seriously. Because if it was just Preston, I'm like, okay, I can deal with so, so much if I love you, but after a while, you know what I'm saying? So I think it was a culmination of a couple of things. It was that, like, one, I wasn't easily offended or easily rattled, right? But even when I was, I did reach my limit. I felt like the Lord was like, no, you not gonna go nowhere. Like, I've called you to this woman. And even when I Tried to refuse that the Lord all. And so, you know, I, I, I really got to give credit to the Lord because the Lord, like, he, like, led me and, and, and didn't, didn't want me to give up.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie]

Yeah. I think that situation was a good training ground for us because I would often say to, to newlyweds, There were a lot of newlyweds that I've known who on the front end of their relationship, when they were dating, it was all butterflies and confetti. And, you know, then when they got married, then they realized that, oh, this is actually hard. But for us, it was hard the whole time. And so now we're actually enjoying the party favors and the confetti and the maturity that comes with having to work through your own stuff with another person. You know what I'm saying? And I feel like that's why certain relationships don't have the longevity that they could have, because people, they just haven't had the chance to see what it's like to work it through. You can, like, it's work to have a good relationship.

[Preston]

Yeah, I think, I agree. I think one of the reasons why a lot of, you know, relationships, even in the early stage, don't work because people run away from hard so easily. And it's the hard things that actually shape us and mold us not just as individuals, but as, as couples.

[Jackie]

And to be clear, the hard things you're called to do because it's a difference between hard things and toxic things. Right. And so there are some relational situations that are just straight up dysfunctional. There's emotional, verbal, physical abuse. There's abandonment, rejection. There's drug, like, we're not, we're talking about, I rejected you, you mishandled me, I was mean to you. You are harsh with me. You get what I'm saying? Like, it's just, we just don't, we're not meshing.

[Preston]

Absolutely. Because one of the things I. Everything that was hard, dealing with issues with you. God was also trying to show something to me. And I think a lot of times when a person is difficult, we can. Or a person kind of gives you trouble in a relationship, we can focus so much on what they're doing and what they're not doing. We kind of miss what God is trying to reveal about us. And God was like, yeah, Jackie is scared and she lashes out at you, but you're also a terrible leader in some ways, and I'm trying to show you that. But if you don't respond to what I'm trying to reveal about you. You will never be morphed into the man that I'm trying to create. Creating you, that will lead Jackie to make her kind of, like, come out of the shell.

[Jackie]

No, that's actually.

[Preston]

It actually works twofold.

[Jackie]

That's actually really wise because prior to that, I said earlier that your method of leadership was lect and preaching to me and trying to change me by just showing me how wrong I was.

[Preston]

And I think I was a Pharisee, not Jesus.

[Jackie]

The text message was monumental because that was the first time you just led by loving me.

[Preston]

Yeah, right.

[Jackie]

Like, I love you. Like, I'm not even going to address, like, we gonna get to what. What happened and work through that, but this is the way I'm gonna establish unity between us is by loving you, which is very much Jesus.

[Preston]

And think about that. Even when we got married, I still kind of had my struggles. Right. But what told me this is deep. What told me this is my wife was after seeing how lighthearted you was, after seeing how open you were, after seeing my friend, I was able to see my friend. When I came over and you made that meal for me, I was like, yo, I can. Not only can I see me marrying this woman, I know that this woman is my wife, but I wasn't able to see for who you really were until I led you with love.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Preston]

Prior. I was just trying to. I wanted to see that.

[Jackie]

Yeah, but you were trying to, like, manufacture it.

[Preston]

I was doing it. I want. I try to get that out of you by my own strength. That's just the truth of it. And it wasn't until, like, I had to seek the Lord and pray, and the Lord was just like, text her, I love you. And I'm like, that ain't gonna work. You don't know what she's said to me in Trinidad. Was you there? I know you omnipresent.

[Jackie]

Did you see it?

[Preston]

And I did it. And I. I came over and you made a meal for me. And I was like, oh, that's all

[Jackie]

I had to do.

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie]

My watch fell off. It really is. Hold on, I'mma get my watch because I don't want it on the floor. It's. It's literally the foolish things of the world. Right?

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie]

Confound in the wise, like, and that. Here we go. Gospel presentation. That is what Jesus did.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

He all false religions and even the expectation of the people of Israel was okay. I've done all the things. I've done all the work. I've read the law and I've tried to obey it, and I've slaughtered the lamb and the goat and the doves and all the things like that should be sufficient. But then Jesus comes as a human being. God in flesh, lives this life, dies on a cross. That doesn't make sense that death should bring life. It doesn't make sense that humility should bring exaltation. Right. What I'm saying is, like, in God's kingdom, there's this reversal dynamic where you loving me open me, where you loving me change me, where you loving me allowed me to actually submit and respond to you.

[Preston]

You get what I'm saying? Absolutely. And I want to say this because even in the vein of the gospel presentation, in relation to how men feel, like they have to kind of like, yeah, but she's wrong. You got to tell her she's wrong. You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie]

I knew I was wrong. I have the spirit of God.

[Preston]

That's what I was just about to say. You knew you were wrong. But my grandmother used to always say this simple truth. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. And I think. Think modeling love. I don't like when people say, preach the gospel, you know, and if it's necessary, use words. No, the words are very, very necessary. Like, we should speak. I don't necessarily think that's true. I think the gospel and the truth is how people change. Right. But I do think God wants us to model a love that will open people so they can be receptive to the truth that we give. And it's not that, you know, I'm not. I haven't corrected you or challenged you in our marriage, but you started to respond a lot more to my correction, my challenges. When you felt love and when you saw the love. And that's just not for a marriage situation. That's for everything in life. It is. How can we model love in a way where we can give people love and truth that will allow them to respond in a way that they know we love them? And so I really think that, you know, modeling love is just. It's key. That's what Jesus did.

[Jackie]

It's huge. So heart fingers.

[Preston]

Heart fingers. You love me still?

[Jackie]

Of course.

[Preston]

Okay.

[Jackie]

What do you mean?

[Preston]

We got four kids.

[Jackie]

Yeah, we do.

[Preston]

How we got all these kids. Why nobody said stop?

[Jackie]

Because you're by y' all with the Perrys. Is produced by the Perrys, with support from Amanda reed and Chany McMahon Bride video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley Edited by the team at Tread Lively Artwork by Hobb thank you for listening. Now go with God.

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[Jackie]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

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[Jackie]

And breathe.

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[Welch's Fruit Snacks Announcer]

Oh, sorry.

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Namaste.

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