Preston Perry (2:04)

No, we're not gonna do that.

Tish Harrison Warren (2:05)

But then I know you. You gonna feel bad, like, oh, she at home on her birthday. It's like, no, I'll be 37. It's a really insignificant.

Preston Perry (2:11)

No, we're not. I'm planning something as soon as this podcast is don't play.

Tish Harrison Warren (2:15)

Huh? I really don't want to do nothing.

Preston Perry (2:16)

Okay. I mean, I got to listen to you.

Tish Harrison Warren (2:18)

Yeah.

Preston Perry (2:19)

What are we Talking about today.

Tish Harrison Warren (2:20)

Oh, you didn't want to keep talking? We really could have worked this through. You getting irritated? No. Okay. So I was listening to a sermon by Tim Keller called the Principles of Christian Growth. We're going to put in show notes so y ain't got to ask me 5,000 times what the terms are. And he was basically talking about Christian maturity and how to go from like a baby Christian to a maturing Christian. Because I don't know we ever get like, grown, grown. Cause that's probably when we die or something.

Preston Perry (2:54)

Right.

Tish Harrison Warren (2:54)

But it was just such a fascinating, helpful, challenging conversation when it came to that. Cause I just think. Yeah, I think a lot of us are babies and don't know it. A lot of us think we're grown. A lot of us don't even have the tools needed to grow up. And so, yeah, I just thought it would be a cool conversation to talk about how to grow up as a Christian.

Preston Perry (3:21)

Yeah. When you brought the idea to me to talk about, talk about this the other day, I don't know if it was yesterday.

Tish Harrison Warren (3:26)

It was yesterday.

Preston Perry (3:26)

Yes, yesterday. I thought it was such a dope topic because as I travel more and more, I. I realize that it's such a. A broad age demographic who listens to our podcast and people who are in different levels of their faith walk. And because there is different levels of spiritual maturity, I think it's a conversation that can. That can be applied to every believer. And so I just thought it was a dope, dope, dope topic.

Tish Harrison Warren (3:57)

When you think of a baby Christian, what is that person?

Preston Perry (4:01)

I think a baby Christian is someone who is new to the faith, who probably just got introduced to Jesus, who just got acquainted with the Bible in the church and trying to figure out they become a Christian by faith, by justification, but trying to practically figure out how to be a Christian. I think you know, and I think you know that it's A levels to that, but I think the initial just coming to Christ is kind of like, you know.

Tish Harrison Warren (4:40)

Yeah. Cause I think it's wise for scripture to use really, I don't know, familial terms when it comes to descriptions in the sense of. To be a Christian is to be born again.

Preston Perry (4:58)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (4:59)

And so it makes sense that when you're born again, you are, in fact, a baby. You are a child. And a part of being a child is you don't know what to do. You don't know how to walk, you don't know how to talk, you don't know how to feed yourself. You don't know how to go to sleep without somebody. Like, you need a degree of nurture that sets you apart as a baby. I think when you met me, I was definitely a baby Christian.

Preston Perry (5:26)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (5:27)

Because I was. I had probably been. Been a Christian maybe six months.

Preston Perry (5:31)

Yeah. And I think I was probably.

Tish Harrison Warren (5:35)

You're a toddler. No, no, no.

Preston Perry (5:37)

A toddler. Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (5:38)

Yeah.

Preston Perry (5:39)

I think that's a. I think that's a good description. I was a toddler. I was probably, like, four.

Tish Harrison Warren (5:44)

Yeah. I was six months old. And I think a part of that season, for me, that was. So. It was uncomfortable because, you know, when you first come to Christ, you're trying to lay aside all this big stuff, you know what I'm saying? So you're breaking up with people, and you're cutting off this music, and you're not watching that, and you're not doing this, and it's like, oh, I got that thought. I just read it in the Bible yesterday. I'm not supposed to have that thought. So what am I supposed to do with that thought, you think? I remember for so long, I kept thinking the devil listening to my thoughts. And so it's like, I'm over here just stressing out is God's. Like, I went to a church where, you know, we communicated God speaking to us all the time. So it was like every thought I had, I thought, is it God? Is it not God? Is it? So there was this. There was this intense zeal, but also incredible instability because I just didn't know what I was doing.

Preston Perry (6:39)

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. I had the same similar, you know, situations when I was a baby. It's interesting that you talked about, you know, how we are baby when we come to the faith, because the first thing that I thought about is how vulnerable babies are.

Tish Harrison Warren (6:57)

That's good.

Preston Perry (6:57)

They're just at a very vulnerable state, which is the reason why the scripture talks about guarding young believers so much, because they are vulnerable. And I think just being careful about what we digest just thinking about that, because I didn't know when I was a baby, I just didn't know what to do, where to go, who to listen to, what to listen to. And I think a lot of people who listen to this podcast, I get questions like that all the time. You know what I'm saying?

Tish Harrison Warren (7:27)

I think the advantage we had in that season, truly, is that podcasts weren't. Because this is. I met you in 2009, so I was 20. Podcasts weren't a thing like that. YouTube was. But you know, it was us watching Soulja Girl, you know, Soulja Girl. It was stuff like that. It wasn't like long form conversations. And so there was no Instagram, maybe Twitter, for sure. Facebook. And so I point that out because we didn't actually have to deal with sifting through all of these teachers, all of these podcasts, all of these books, all of these resources, and getting lost in the sauce. We had pastors. Like, we went to church and we listened to our pastors and we listened to the people around us that we knew and had access to. And I think this generation has such a significant temptation to be following way too many rabbis. Like, way too many. It's like, oh, this podcast is interesting because they tell me the deep spiritual thing. And this podcast is interesting because they give me theology. And that's why people have a difficult time finding a church.

Preston Perry (8:36)

Yeah, yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (8:37)

Because it's like you're so used to the buffet that the Internet offers you that you don't know how to just settle in one church that may not be giving you all the things. They just. They're giving you what you need, not necessarily what you want.

Preston Perry (8:48)

Yeah, that's good. That's good. I just came back from Chicag, did an event with Dr. Charlie dates, and a girl got up on a mic and asked me and Charlie that very same question. She was like, how do I know who to listen to? She's like, I've been going to this church talking about Pastor Dr. Charlie Day's church. But she was like, how do I discern who to listen to? And, you know, Charlie gave her a good answer, and I answered secondly. But in my mind, the only thing I kept thinking about is like, man, I don't think you should be listening to all of these people at once. And I know, like, I. And so for me, I think sometimes I can have the temptation to think that way because of how I came up in the faith originally. But the reality is that's where we are now. It's just where we are now. And so I guess my question to you is, like, how healthy is it for people to have so many voices and what are the benefits of living in a time where people are being discipled really, through social media?

Tish Harrison Warren (9:50)

I don't know. I think a big component of wisdom, because this is a wisdom question.

Preston Perry (9:56)

Yes.

Tish Harrison Warren (9:57)

Is knowing your Bible more than anything, truly. I think the more you drink the Bible, the more you drink the scripture, the more you spend time with the Lord. He gives you the language and the lenses to sift through who is necessary, who is not. Because some people might be good, but unhelpful, you know. But I also think with that, if you read through the New Testament in particular, what you're gonna continue to come against or what you're gonna continue to discover is Paul and Peter's emphasis and Jesus emphasis on the body.

Preston Perry (10:32)

Yeah. The local community.

Tish Harrison Warren (10:33)

And so I think the greater question, yes, who should I listen to? I need to discern all this, that type of stuff. But it's also what house do I need to submit to? You know, what I'm. That will make the difference. Because the things that have helped me grow, the people who have me change, have not all been people who I don't have access to. It's been people that I know and people who know me. And so I think switch the question to say, lord, what church do you want me to attend? What leaders do you want me to connect with? How do you want me to be discipled locally? And that naturally will help you not need so many Internet resources.

Preston Perry (11:12)

Yeah, that's good. That's good.

Tish Harrison Warren (11:15)

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Preston Perry (11:39)

During our time at Weekend to Remember, I was very impressed in how intentional the activities were. I was very impressed with how intentional they put a lot of work in allowing couples, married couples, to connect. I felt myself thinking about things that I didn't think about before I went to Weekend to Remember. And also I was just blessed to see so many age groups. You know, a lot of times you think you need to work on your marriage when you're 10, you know, 15 years in and I'm seeing people there working on a marriage 40 years in. And so, man, it just blessed me to see that God has really given them a heart for marriage and helping so many people around the country learn

Tish Harrison Warren (12:17)

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Preston Perry (12:35)

I think local community is so, so vital and so key. Cause I think go ahead. As it pertains to our spiritual maturity. You know, a lot of times, you know, when I'M discipling young men in my local community. Oftentimes when young men come to me, I'm finding myself having to kind of, like, pull them away from unhealthy people that they listen to on social media.

Tish Harrison Warren (13:02)

Right.

Preston Perry (13:02)

And I have to explain to them why this is not healthy. Now, I'm not one of those cult leaders where I just. I'm doing that because I only want the people I disciple to listen to me.

Tish Harrison Warren (13:11)

Yeah, no, actually not.

Preston Perry (13:12)

Yeah, but I'm. But I'm actually pointing them to other people in the. In the, in the body who I do think is helpful. Because I think, unfortunately, in today's age, we are actually not. Like, we're naturally not going to. Like, our flesh is not naturally going to go to people online who challenge us with people who kind of feed our flesh, you know, I'm saying, and feed our desires in a lot of ways. And I think the local community is a great God to kind of sift out, like, even to question our motives. Like, why are you listening to this person? What is this person, like, actually giving

Tish Harrison Warren (13:45)

you, you know, and knowledge of the Word is pivotal because even the church you pick might be unwise. Right. Even the leadership you pursue might not be helpful. And so I think spending time in the Epistles, what is the church? What is a healthy pastor? Let me look at Titus, let me look at Timothy. Let me discern through the Scriptures and then apply that into all of my questions, into my perspective. Like, the Scriptures has to become the framework by which we discern everything. You know what I'm saying? Lamp unto our feet. The scripture that came to my mind is Ephesians 4, verse 11, where Paul says, and he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood. I'mma keep reading. Verse 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful skins. Rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head.

Preston Perry (15:02)

Look, look, I just want to let you know we was in the Spirit.

Tish Harrison Warren (15:05)

Look at you.

Preston Perry (15:05)

I was about to read.

Tish Harrison Warren (15:07)

Is that my Bible?

Preston Perry (15:08)

Yeah, I was about to read that same verse. It is. It is your Bible.

Tish Harrison Warren (15:12)

You feel that leather?

Preston Perry (15:13)

I was about to read that same verse.

Tish Harrison Warren (15:14)

You feel the leather, huh? That. That's a. That's a. It is.

Preston Perry (15:17)

It's really nice.

Tish Harrison Warren (15:18)

Yeah. I need.

Preston Perry (15:18)

When you get this.

Tish Harrison Warren (15:19)

It was a gift. I need to put it back in the bookshelf. No, you should use it now. We need the word. I say that because Paul is listing these different categories and these different offices that all serve to equip us not only for the work of ministry, but to help us grow up. You know what I'm saying? And so that even is a challenge to the temptation to feel as if what you get on the Internet is sufficient to make you mature. It's not. You know what I'm saying? The pastor is in a church. You know what I'm saying? The evangelist should be functioning within a church. Like, these offices are church offices, and they help produce the fruit that keeps us from being, like, led astray from all these crazy people.

Preston Perry (16:00)

And I love the 2 emphasis on that scripture. I love that it emphasizes Christ's dissension to the earth. And I love that it emphasizes the leaders in the local community helping us to obtain Christ and in order for us to be mature. Because, one, it shows us that spiritual maturity actually doesn't really come apart from God's local community, but it also talks about how Jesus coming, He is the model of our spiritual maturity, not this podcast, necessarily. And so let me ask you this. We're talking about a lot of spiritual maturity. What is spiritual immaturity? What would you say?

Tish Harrison Warren (16:44)

Immaturity? Well, I think that's a helpful question in the sense that I think we think maturity happens because of time, when maturity happens because of choice.

Preston Perry (17:00)

Break that down.

Tish Harrison Warren (17:01)

I mean, I'm sure, you know, somebody that's been in Christ for 20 years, and they act like they did when they met him, like, there are still the same character flaws. There are still the same preferences. There are still the same, you know, behaviors that they used to like. It's like, why haven't you died to that yet?

Preston Perry (17:22)

So are you saying. Are you saying that the choices that we make ultimately help us mature into believers?

Tish Harrison Warren (17:28)

Maturity is a choice.

Preston Perry (17:30)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (17:31)

So. Because I know people who have accelerated in their maturity faster than people who are older than them because they are deciding to make every effort to grow. And so I think when you talk about spiritual maturity, maturity ultimately is we are all saved, justified, regenerated, united with Christ, predestined to be conformed into the image of His Son. And so maturity is the degree in which that conformity is discernible. Right. And so how much do I look like Christ now than I did five months ago, five years ago, 10 seconds ago? AM I continuing to grow and mature in looking like him? Do I still talk the same? Do I still want the same? Do I still have the same palette for those things? That is spiritual maturity.

Preston Perry (18:24)

What would you say to the person who would say like. Like, because I do think that there is a particular Christian believer person out there who believes that their. That their choices as it relates to works makes them mature.

Tish Harrison Warren (18:39)

Interesting.

Preston Perry (18:39)

Yeah, right. And so when you say choices, I just kind of wanted to distinguish that from works. Other. Like, rather than you making decisions that will ultimately bring maturity, like, how would you.

Tish Harrison Warren (18:54)

Well, even that's a sign of immaturity.

Preston Perry (18:57)

That's why I asked the question.

Tish Harrison Warren (18:59)

Because immaturity says if I just say no to this, that makes me mature. Maturity says, I'm saying no by faith. I'm saying no because of love. And I'm also discerning the motives behind why I even said yes in the first place.

Preston Perry (19:16)

That's good. That's good. And that's a good. Because my act of saying no actually will produce maturity in me, not automatically make me mature. Because I think a lot of times people judge spiritual maturity off this checklist. I don't do this, so I'm mature. I don't do that, so I'm faithful. I don't do this. So this one girl had critiqued me cause I had a Kendra Lamar shirt on. She was like, you a baby in the faith? I was like, cause of shirts. And I said, you're actually probably an infant in the faith trying to act like a giant. Because you're trying to judge my righteousness about something that I have on now, how I treat people and how I love God. Right? And so, like, I think that distinction is good because I think when we make those choices, I think those choices.

Tish Harrison Warren (20:04)

I'm listening. I'm just trying to find the scripture.

Preston Perry (20:05)

Produce faith in us and produce maturity in us. So that's good.

Tish Harrison Warren (20:09)

Yeah. I mean, let's give some examples. Like, what are. Because ultimately what I'm trying to say is that we have to decide to grow up. We have to decide to do that. And so it doesn't mean that the degree of our decision will also accelerate our maturity, because ultimately it's God who brings the growth. But it does put us in the pathway of power where God can help us look more like his son. So my question is, I guess when you think of your life, when you first came to Christ and maybe like the first few years, how did you see God using. Yeah. Circumstances, different calls, different people to. To kind of push you out there where it's like, all right, now, President.

Preston Perry (20:57)

Yeah, Grow up.

Tish Harrison Warren (20:58)

You gotta grow up now.

Preston Perry (20:59)

Yeah, Yeah. I think I'm gonna talk about myself, but I. But in talking about myself, I want to just kind of highlight what I think spiritual maturity, immaturity looks like, because I. In a lot of ways, I'm still growing up, but I was really immature in the faith. And I think one of the things that my leader, Brian Gary, early on, even my aunt, who was very vital in my spiritual walk early on when I lived with her, helped me to see was that I knew Jesus. But because I was spiritually immature, I did not know how to take correction.

Tish Harrison Warren (21:40)

That's a huge sign.

Preston Perry (21:43)

Yeah, so. So spiritual immature people, they don't know how to take correction. Spiritual immature people don't. Like, they're led by their emotions, not led by the spirit or the scriptures. And so, like, wherever my emotions went, I went with it. And so I didn't know how to cipher. I didn't know how to sift my emotions through the lens of scripture. I still just acted how I acted when I was in the world. And it was mature believers coming into my life saying, preston, you're a Christian now. You don't act like that anymore. But not just telling me, but showing me.

Tish Harrison Warren (22:29)

You remember once I probably told you this on podcast, I judged you when we were building a friendship because we had went to some event or something and you kind of hit that person car. Oh, yeah, you bumped it. But you hit it. You hit it. And you was like, all right, y', all, let's go. I was like, you not gonna leave?

Preston Perry (22:48)

No, no. You making me sound way better than I actually did. I was like, oh, time to go.

Tish Harrison Warren (22:53)

Oh, I don't remember that.

Preston Perry (22:54)

I, like, whipped it. And I'm like, the way I grew up.

Tish Harrison Warren (22:59)

Yeah, it's like, it is what it is.

Preston Perry (23:00)

It is what it is. And you was like, no. Like, we have to stay here and contact them. I was like, oh, that is the Christian thing.

Tish Harrison Warren (23:06)

And what I said was right, but it wasn't coming from a place of maturity. It was also coming from self righteousness. Because I was in a context where you got to do the right thing or you are going to hell. You know what I'm saying? So in my mind, I'm like, absolutely not. You got to write them a note or something, because God isn't pleased with it. So even probably the way I communicated it had a harshness to it, which I think is also a sign of spirituality. Spiritual immaturity is how you communicate. Truth is very telling.

Preston Perry (23:34)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (23:34)

You know what I'm saying? Like, do you love people?

Preston Perry (23:37)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (23:37)

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Preston Perry (24:42)

You said a lot. But the thing that I love that you said the most is ad free. Because that's what a devil be trying to creep in with your little kids.

Tish Harrison Warren (24:49)

Correct.

Preston Perry (24:50)

Trying to like, you know, put like nasty and sinful stuff in front of them. So the fact that our kids can watch golly shows without having to worry about some ungodly ad popping up on their face, I think it's a win.

Tish Harrison Warren (25:02)

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Preston Perry (25:20)

Yeah, so for me I just, I didn't know how to take correction. I didn't know how to like sit in that rebuke. I just felt attacked and so I, I like lashed out at people, you know what I'm saying? And then two, I just didn't know how to submit to a local church body. I think submit like my lack of submission to other Christians, it felt like

Tish Harrison Warren (25:49)

slavery, felt like control.

Preston Perry (25:51)

It felt like control. And so, yeah, I lacked humility. I lacked, you know, and it was all because I just didn't know Jesus as intimately as I should. And I think the more I started to know Jesus and the more I started to. Because I think oftentimes when we become Christian, everybody wants to gain spiritual maturity so quick. And I think our flesh tries to make us judge our maturity off of other flawed human beings. To say I'm mature because it's like, no. When Christ is actually the standard, correct. You see how far you are from spirituality, maturity. And so when I started to see Jesus, it's like, no. Like, Jesus was God in the flesh, but he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Like, and I'm over here acting prideful with my local church community. Like, even Jesus, like, submitted himself to the same people he created. Even Jesus didn't. Like, he didn't even respond negatively when people said he was demon possessed. You're Christ.

Tish Harrison Warren (27:00)

Yeah, for sure.

Preston Perry (27:01)

And you got Pharisees calling you demon possessed. And you ain't saying tomorrow. You ain't going to wake up tomorrow. You know what I'm saying? Because I'm the Son of God, and I'm over here offended because I think I'm so righteous and somebody's critique of me is making me feel like, you know, I'm not who I, I quote, unquote, am. And so, like, comparing my life to Jesus was, Was. Was the measure of how I started to, like, growing my faith.

Tish Harrison Warren (27:25)

Yeah, I. I think maturity, because I am maturing. I'm not gonna say I'm mature. Maturity for me, has taken place through me, redefining the metric by which I discern maturity. By that, I mean, when I first came to Christ, I was. Was. I still am, but I was smart. I was able to read Scripture and kind of internalize it and process it really quickly. Like, I had a really apt, I think, understanding of complex theological ideas. Not like a lot of debt, but something that it was just like. It was really just God's gift. It wasn't my maturity. And I started to think that because I was useful and because I was intelligent, that that therefore meant I was mature. And it's like, I think that's a difficult thing for people to, like, like, rid themselves of, is realizing just because, you know, the text doesn't mean you've absorbed it. Just because you understand these really wise ideas doesn't mean you're wise. You know what I'm saying? Like, you have to live that thing out. Like, let me. Like, I remember the one. The one somebody that was walking with me, they was like, how are you getting on social media? You getting on your phone?

Preston Perry (28:45)

No, I was. I was checking time.

Tish Harrison Warren (28:46)

Okay. They're like, how you getting. How you getting on social media? Like, you just got out to word. You jumping on social media to share it before you even applied it. I was like, you. Right. It's like you're communicating it so quickly. Yeah. As if you learned to obey it now. Like, you haven't even learned how to obey. You just got out of the book. And so I think it's been a lot of years where God continues to bring me really low, to show me that you often know more than what you're able to do. And so just your knowledge does not necessarily communicate your wisdom.

Preston Perry (29:25)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (29:26)

Or it does.

Preston Perry (29:27)

Yeah, that's good. But I want to encourage you, though.

Tish Harrison Warren (29:29)

Okay.

Preston Perry (29:30)

I want to encourage you because some years ago, this is when we lived in Chicago. I was talking your hands together.

Tish Harrison Warren (29:36)

I don't know what that means.

Preston Perry (29:37)

Yeah. I was talking to this. To this one girl who was having some struggles, you know, in her marriage. And she was a smart girl, and, yeah, she was brilliant. She loved to read. She knew a lot of scripture, and she often complained about her husband to people, you know, and her complaints was, my husband is not spiritually mature. Spiritually mature. And as a young leader in the church, one of the things I had to do is I had to challenge her to say, he's actually probably way more mature than you think he is, and you're way. Probably way more immature than you think you are. Because the fact that you're blasting him publicly shows your immaturity and the fact that, you know. And so if he knows five scriptures and, you know, 150, and he's applying those five scriptures properly, she's probably more spiritually mature than you. And when I told. When I tried to communicate to her, and granted, that was years ago, you know, I struggle having a filter now, so I probably could have said it more graciously. But one of the things I realized is not only was she immature, she was blind.

Tish Harrison Warren (30:48)

Interesting. Right?

Preston Perry (30:49)

And so therefore, it was a lot of pride, even as it related to her immaturity, which made it hard for her to grow. And I think that with you, I see I'm your husband, and so I see all of your flaws and all of the ways in which you grow, have to grow up in the faith. But I see somebody who's never blind to their own immaturity and who was always looking to grow and always like, because it's dangerous when a person don't see themselves.

Tish Harrison Warren (31:22)

Oh, horrific.

Preston Perry (31:24)

It's dangerous.

Tish Harrison Warren (31:25)

It's a scary thing.

Preston Perry (31:26)

It's dangerous. And so when I talk to my brothers in the faith and they're talking about how to help their wives grow, I always make them pay attention to that their wives actually see and how encouraged they should be by that. And I think that's the measure in which we all should be encouraged by our own maturity. Because the Pharisees were actually spiritually immature people, but they were also blind.

Tish Harrison Warren (31:54)

They weren't even spiritually alive.

Preston Perry (31:55)

They wasn't dead. They were spiritually dead. Right, right. But what I'm saying is they thought that they had great faith because they were blind. And I think that if God has shown us, you know, that we are immature one, that that's actually great that you said that. It might be. It's be more encouraged that you're alive in Christ, that you have faith, that your faith is alive. Because as long as your faith is alive, the Holy Spirit can help sanctify you.

Tish Harrison Warren (32:21)

I'm glad you brought. Because I do think the path of maturity is also the path of self awareness. And like the Lord. I've said this on the podcast before, but the Lord is very patient. There is always more in us than we are even aware of. Always more. I remember hearing Paul Washer say this when I was like a new believer. He was saying, the closer you get to Christ, the more sinful you'll see yourself as. And a lot of times you think, oh, the holier I am, or the more intimate I am with God, or the closer I am with God, as if that proximity will give you more security. In a sense it does. In a sense it doesn't. Because you actually see yourself clearer the more close you get to God. As much like Isaiah 6 Isaiah is like the throne, and he says, I, I'm a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips. For my eyes have seen the king. That ain't even like, in our minds, a deep struggle, like, for him to be like, oh, it's just your mouth. And he's like, no. Like, I'm in the presence of holiness, where even the things you call little are big. And I think that is the difference when it comes to maturity is like, the more close I get to God, the more clearer I should see myself.

Preston Perry (33:45)

And that's so good that you said that. Because I think the reason why we see ourselves the closer we get to God is because we realize that God does not measure spiritual maturity like humans do.

Tish Harrison Warren (33:54)

Absolutely not.

Preston Perry (33:55)

Right. And so because we measure spiritual. He big in the faith. He prophesied. She big in the faith. She's seeing the spirit. It's like, no. If she doesn't know how to not gossip, she's probably not spiritually mature. I don't know. I don't care how many gifts you see her walking in.

Tish Harrison Warren (34:10)

We really have to read First Corinthians all the way through.

Preston Perry (34:15)

Right.

Tish Harrison Warren (34:15)

We really do. Because they were what you would call spiritual monsters. They are walking in all the gifts and not an ounce of love. And Paul is like, y' all are clanging gongs, meaning to God, y' all just making noise.

Preston Perry (34:29)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (34:29)

To people, y' all look powerful. To God, y' all are weak.

Preston Perry (34:32)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (34:33)

And I see a lot of that on. On the social.

Preston Perry (34:35)

Absolutely. Because like, that. That, you know, First Corinthians 13 is quoted at, you know, weddings and stuff like that. It's like, love is this. Love is that. But it's like, it was actually a rebuke to the church. Yes, it is. Saying y' all out here doing a whole bunch of. Bunch of gifts and operating them. A whole bunch of gifts. But y' all actually are still babies in the faith. And I think the reason why, when we. The closer we get to Christ, we start to see ourselves and our spiritual immaturity is cause God doesn't measure spiritual maturity by works or acts, but by the heart. He judges the heart. And so the more you get close to Christ, it's like, oh, I've been operating in this gift that he gave me for the last seven years, but my heart is actually the same in so many ways. And that could be a very humbling thing. And this is the reason why Paul called himself the least of these.

Tish Harrison Warren (35:27)

Yes.

Preston Perry (35:28)

This is the reason why the Apostle Paul, the man who God used to write majority of the New Testament, says, I am the least. Not because he was necessarily the least academically, not necessarily because he was the least when it came to, like, operating in gifts, because he was in tune with how wicked his heart was. And I think a lot of times we just don't measure spiritual maturity by this. We measure spiritual maturity by, like, how well we prophesy, how well we teach and all of the things. And God is like, I'm not looking at maturity in that way.

Tish Harrison Warren (35:59)

Truly, the Most powerful people are the ones who know they're the weakest. Yes, that's just a fact. One scripture I wanted to read and comment on that we should all get in our Systems is Psalm 139, where David says, search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts and see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Those kinds of prayers are scary. Yeah, let me follow this through. It's scary because self knowledge comes with shame. And I think an element of shame sometimes is pride, where you realize you not as dope as you thought you were. So instead of turning to Christ in faith and repentance, we turn to ourselves in pity. And so it leads us to run from accountability. It reads, it leads us to run from transparency, it leads us to run from prayer simply because we are running from the truth about ourselves. And that is another sign of either immaturity or levels of immaturity, even in a mature Christian. Christian. And I say that because the anchoring thing that precipitates maturity is faith. Yeah, we are growing in deeper faith in God, in His gospel, how he views us, how he sees us, how he died for us, how he loves us. And I've become a little more courageous and praying stuff like that because I know if God shows me he's doing it because he loves me, does it make sense? But it's like he's not showing it me that to condemn me because there is no condemnation. He's not showing me that to, to judge me per se. He's showing me that because he's like, this is an area in your heart, an area in your life that I actually want freedom for you from. I want freedom. And so if we know that God's aim in my life is freedom and conformity to Christ, that gives me courage to actually pray prayers like that. And I think that that would actually help a lot of us in a lot of different ways to just see who we are.

Preston Perry (38:11)

Yeah. Because I. That's. That's really good because I think a lot of times when we think about spiritual maturity, I. I think about being used by the Lord. But it's like, I think God, I often say this, like it's hard for God to use anybody who don't see themselves. And so what you're essentially saying is like, lord, show me you, but also show me me so I can see myself properly and so that I can be used properly. Because it's hard for God to use somebody who don't see themselves. And I struggle with, I still struggle with that, if I'm being honest.

Tish Harrison Warren (38:42)

I definitely do. But I'm more, more prone to say the hard thing because I've experienced too many failures from my own ignorance. Yeah, I think when you realize how much ignorance is unhelpful, it makes you like, ah, let me stop doing that. But one thing I was gonna say is I really like watching sports documentaries. I don't even like sports like that.

Preston Perry (39:04)

But you love the documentaries.

Tish Harrison Warren (39:05)

I love the documentaries because they're so insightful and I think even like, comparable to the Christian walk. Because one thing about these upper echelon athletes, they know every weakness they, they have, every single one of them. And I said this before, but we watched this documentary about track stars and one of the trainers was like, all of these stars run fast. He was like, so my training of them is not to help them run fast. He was like, it's to help them run fast. Well, and it was like this subtle. It's like, no, you already are running fast. But I'm going to talk about how your foot is landing or the arch or the way you get off of the little thing when they shoot the gun. Like, it's these, you need to be aware of the weaknesses so that you can actually discover how to overcome them and win the race. And I think that's easier for us to do in sports than it is for us to do in our Christian life. And I think that's why Paul always compares even maturity and all of that to athleticism is like, run the race that is set before you. How about laying aside every sin and the weight that so easily entangles. Like, I beat my body like an athlete. Da da da da. It's like we, we gotta look at even what God exposes not from the framework of condemnation, but from the framework of God is just wanting you to be a better runner.

Preston Perry (40:26)

That's so good. That, that is so good. And it's, it's, it's lovely.

Tish Harrison Warren (40:30)

Encouraged you.

Preston Perry (40:31)

No, it is, it's really good because, you know, I, I see, I see young Christians online and I be wanting to like, I, I be trying not to be that uncle, uncle that want to correct everybody, but you know how the uncle to be, want to correct everybody. But it's like, no, I've actually been where you, where you, where you are, and I'm actually still struggling with the things that you struggle with. I just struggle with it differently now. You know what I'm saying? It's like I'M not better. I just struggle differently. Right. Because I'm more aware of my sin and all of that. But I love that you even brought up the sports things. Because the best athletes were the ones who actually absorbed criticism. The best.

Tish Harrison Warren (41:11)

Yes.

Preston Perry (41:12)

And applied the criticism and they became great. Right. So I think the temptation for the runner to be like, man, I run fast. What are you talking about? Why aren't you critiquing anything?

Tish Harrison Warren (41:24)

Yeah.

Preston Perry (41:24)

And I think for us as believers, I think, I think our pride, we want to be giants in the faith so fast. We wanna feel like we are big in the faith so much. Right. And so this is the reason why you got a whole bunch of babies walking around acting like they're giants. And so the moment you critique them, you actually are showing how fragile you really are. The way you take criticism, it's like, ooh, that hurts. Because you're really not big in the faith yet.

Tish Harrison Warren (41:55)

But why do you wanna be big in the faith?

Preston Perry (41:58)

Because when you are big in the faith, you get really big trials.

Tish Harrison Warren (42:01)

But what I'm saying is that's another thing. Why is it, Is that the goal? Yeah, that's a part of the, the self awareness here. Because that means you want to be somebody.

Preston Perry (42:11)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (42:12)

When it's like, greatest in the kingdom is servant of all. Paul says, no. Like I, I asked three times for him to take this thing away. He like, yeah, my strength is sufficient in weakness, so when I am weak, then I am strong. And so the pursuit can't be of being big in the faith, but it has to be being low before God. Like that has to be like, we have to minds about how we view this whole Christian thing because. Sorry to cut you off. No, it's like when you came to Christ, you came to a cross. You understand what I'm saying? Like, if, if any man follow me, he must take up his cross and die. And it's just like it's given. Y' all want to live, but y' all don't want to die. That that's actually the hope. And so until we want to die, we will never be powerful or strong or big. And even these, these adjectives, and they're just weird to me, there has to be something demonic about that. Because even, like, no, truly, even Paul, even Jesus, one of the temptations he received is for him to jump off the cliff so that everybody would perceive him as something because the angels rescued him. He wanted him to grab power, power in a way that God had actually not designed. And I just, I don't Know, I just think we need to be aware of that pride because that's, that's because

Preston Perry (43:39)

I think, I think, I think it's not good. Like even a couple seconds ago I said like, you get a lot of attacks when you, when you're big. But I, but what I'm trying to communicate is I think the way people judge being big in the faith is how much they're used. And I, I think you being useful with gifts is never a way for you to measure your faith.

Tish Harrison Warren (43:59)

Right.

Preston Perry (44:00)

Because like, notice how the scripture doesn't say in the last day the Lord people will say, lord, did not prophesy in your name, did not cast out demons in your name, yada, yada, yada. Notice how I did not say Lord, I thought I prophesied in your name.

Tish Harrison Warren (44:13)

No, they didn't.

Preston Perry (44:15)

I thought I cast out demons in your name. It's like. Right, and so they actually did. Which means that people actually will operate in gifts.

Tish Harrison Warren (44:24)

Yes.

Preston Perry (44:25)

But at the end of the day they still don't know Jesus.

Tish Harrison Warren (44:28)

Correct.

Preston Perry (44:29)

And so gifts can never be the measure of how you measure how big you are in the faith. Right. Being like Jesus is the only way you can measure how big you are in the faith. And this same Jesus condescended, came from heaven to earth to die for the same people that he created. Dated Pharisees. I want to go back because I was reading this the other day and I was just like, man, it's hidden

Tish Harrison Warren (44:57)

in your heart, Pharisees. So you would not send a good,

Preston Perry (44:59)

accuse this man of being demon possessed and you going off on people on social media because they said you wasn't

Tish Harrison Warren (45:08)

what it's like, wasn't what is.

Preston Perry (45:11)

You know what I'm saying? Like, and so like when we see how, how, how low Jesus became and how he and how he lived this, this, this human life, that has to be the measure of how we measure greatness. If we're not measuring off of Jesus, I think our measurements are all wrong.

Tish Harrison Warren (45:31)

And yeah, there's so much to be said. This been on my mind. I' ma just say it out loud.

Preston Perry (45:37)

What?

Tish Harrison Warren (45:38)

You know how we got all these people on tick tock that always got to work Word.

Preston Perry (45:43)

Oh my goodness.

Tish Harrison Warren (45:44)

They just always got a word. I, I, I, I woke up at 3am and the Lord gave me a word. I Woke up at 6:12am and the Lord gave me a word. I woke up at this time and the Lord gave me a word.

Preston Perry (45:56)

And it's always a word that's going

Tish Harrison Warren (45:57)

to get you views 1 it's always a warning. And I'm like, so God ain't never got nothing nice to say? Like, every, every, every. Everything got to say is a warning. And there's always a warning detached from the gospel. It's always a warning. Warning detached from hope. It's always a warning. Like it. Anyway, what's ironic to me is how differently they seem to move from Paul, because in 2nd Corinthians 12, Paul has a vision, and he's trying to detach himself from the visions that he's seen so much that he talks about it in third person. That's 1, 2. The Lord gives him the sor.

Preston Perry (46:39)

I was looking for the Scripture.

Tish Harrison Warren (46:41)

You got the book in your lap.

Preston Perry (46:43)

I just.

Tish Harrison Warren (46:44)

I understand. It's 2 Corinthians 12. Sheesh. I. I just thought I was being ignored.

Preston Perry (46:49)

No, I wasn't.

Tish Harrison Warren (46:49)

You see, I responded really patiently.

Preston Perry (46:52)

See, I was. I'm trying to follow you.

Tish Harrison Warren (46:53)

I understand.

Preston Perry (46:54)

I ain't want to be sleeping through the pages.

Tish Harrison Warren (46:55)

All right. Second Corinthians 12.

Preston Perry (46:57)

Okay, go.

Tish Harrison Warren (46:58)

All right. Chapter four. I mean, verse four, verse seven. So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of Revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh. I just think it's interesting that y' all got all these revelations and y' all don't got no thorns. It. It's just like, the Lord actually sends trials and circumstances, and. And it's a thorn sent from, like, it's a messenger of Satan. So God even uses Satan to keep Paul humble because of the revelation. And I just feel like if y' all was going through that, you probably wouldn't be talking to so much. Go ahead.

Preston Perry (47:39)

No, I just.

Tish Harrison Warren (47:39)

I don't know. I just be like. So y'.

Preston Perry (47:41)

All don't.

Tish Harrison Warren (47:41)

Y' all not getting. Be beat up by the. Like, y'.

Preston Perry (47:44)

All.

Tish Harrison Warren (47:45)

I. I just. I don't know.

Preston Perry (47:47)

I just think that's good.

Tish Harrison Warren (47:49)

I think intimacy with. And, you know, people say, well, the prophets and y' all ain't Elijah, y' all ain't them. You are Tisha. You see what I'm saying? You are. You are Kendra. Huh? You are Joe. Like, you are. You are James Walking, what you are called to. But what I'm. All I'm ultimately trying to say is even the way we posture these gifts is so different from the people who walked in the same gifts in the Scriptures. And what I'm seeing is a positioning of yourself rather than a lowering of yourself. You're telling me that God don't never tell you to keep that a secret. That I think when you are married to somebody, when you are best friends with somebody, when you are intimate with somebody, he's going to say a lot to you that he just wants you to intercede about and not always air out. Not even air out within a local body or a local church or a local city. How the prophets function, but online.

Preston Perry (48:39)

Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. I. So, so many things are popping up in my head because when you brought that up, I, I'm. I'm thinking about. It's hard for me not to think about the character of God and how. And the character that I see on social media, because it don't. It don't be matching. And what I mean is, it's like God often sent prophets in the Old Testament, but one thing we know about God is he's slow to anger.

Tish Harrison Warren (49:08)

Yes.

Preston Perry (49:08)

And so even how the prophets move, they gave people warnings after God gave people a lot of chances. You making a TikTok about this, and it happened that week, it's like God ain't talking to you. Like he ain't giving you immediate revelation about every single thing in the new news and on social media. It's like, I mean, he sent Moses to set the capitols free after, you know, I. After they was in slavery for years and years and years.

Tish Harrison Warren (49:37)

I will never, ever trust a prophet who always has a warning and never preaches the gospel. I will never, ever trust a prophet who always has a word of condemnation and never a word of grace. I will never, ever trust a prophet who always has something to say and no scripture to back it up with. I just don't. To me, that is, that is how you have discernment is you know your Bible, and when you know your Bible, then you know when people are walking in things that the Bible has actually not affirmed.

Preston Perry (50:12)

That's good.

Tish Harrison Warren (50:13)

I'm sorry.

Preston Perry (50:14)

That's good.

Tish Harrison Warren (50:14)

I'll step off my back and I'll say, I ain't saying God don't use a prophetic. He absolutely does us, but I'm saying Satan does too. So we. We have to be able to discern.

Preston Perry (50:25)

Yeah. Because I, I think, and I want to address what you just said about knowing the Bible, because I think in the past I've heard people say, y' all are teachers and these are prophets.

Tish Harrison Warren (50:34)

Oh, my God.

Preston Perry (50:35)

That really don't even make sense. That really don't make sense. It's like, no, knowing the Bible actually helps you to know Christ because this is the way in which he has revealed himself to the world.

Tish Harrison Warren (50:47)

The Bible is prophetic, right?

Preston Perry (50:48)

The. The Bible is the most prophetic thing that we can ever read. And I think that when you know Jesus, you know what's not him. And so, like, like. Like the Lord is slow to anger. He's slow to speak.

Tish Harrison Warren (51:01)

Abounding in steadfast love.

Preston Perry (51:04)

In steadfast love. He's never rejoicing in evil. He's never rejoicing in the demise of other people. He's not. He's not. He doesn't have a word for people with a smile on his face. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like, he's greedy.

Tish Harrison Warren (51:19)

Jeremiah was the weeping prophet, right?

Preston Perry (51:20)

He was the weeping, weeping prophet. And so, like, I think what we're ultimately saying is, I think as we mature in faith, we. We know who to listen to. We. We know not who to listen to. Not because of signs and wonders, even things coming to pass. Because a lot of times that's how a lot of prophets get y'.

Tish Harrison Warren (51:39)

All.

Preston Perry (51:39)

They say a word and it comes to pass. But Deuteronomy lets us know that even if a word comes to pass.

Tish Harrison Warren (51:44)

Hello?

Preston Perry (51:45)

It's because the Lord is testing you. Hello. And he's saying, I'm allowing these things to come to pass. To pass by false prophets, to show y'. All. Y' all actually looking for signs and not me.

Tish Harrison Warren (51:55)

And do you know how he distinguishes it? He says, yet what they said was true, but their character is bad, therefore they're still false.

Preston Perry (52:02)

Yes. And so God is saying. God is saying. That's the scary part. I actually will allow false prophets to give a word that will come to pass so that y' all will believe them. So in the end, I will say, y' all never knew me because y' all was looking for signs, not the Christ, not my character. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that's why people be falling into listening to false prophets all the time, is because y' all are looking for signs and wonders. Y' all don't actually recognize the character of God. And so when somebody comes acting like Satan and gives you a word that comes to pass, you follow him.

Tish Harrison Warren (52:38)

And let's be clear, it's also false prophets in the political arena.

Preston Perry (52:43)

Oh, yes, it is.

Tish Harrison Warren (52:45)

Who leverage Christians ideals and ethics and passages to promote a particular agenda that has nothing to do with Christ, that has nothing to do with the widow, that has nothing to do with the prisoner, that has nothing to do with not just the unborn, but those who are alive. That too is a form of false prophecy. And so I just, I just think, I don't know where, how we got here. I just, I don't know how we got here, but we're here.

Preston Perry (53:13)

Yeah, I think we got here.

Tish Harrison Warren (53:14)

Can I say one more thing? Since we on this rant, I remember, how did we get here? I don't actually remember. I, I remember, you know, I, I see a lot online and I was just seeing a bunch of like rebukes from so called prophets and stuff. I said, why they ain't never sad about it?

Preston Perry (53:37)

That's what I'm saying.

Tish Harrison Warren (53:38)

I just, I said, I said they seem so content with, with it just seemed like they were so non. Affected by judgment. You understand what I'm saying?

Preston Perry (53:52)

That's what I mean though.

Tish Harrison Warren (53:54)

And I'm like, Jesus, he would weep over people not coming to him. Jeremiah was sad. Paul was like, I would give myself for y' all to be saved. And I think that's an area of discernment where we're very, very weak in is where we don't see how a lack of love, even within saying a hard word might actually be, be communicating the character of the person that's, that's talking. And what I'm thankful about this conversation is that y' all know I'm not afraid to say hard stuff. Y' all know I'm not afraid to confront idols in the culture and do all the things. So obviously I'm not a pansy. Talking about grace as if grace is a cover up for sin. The Bible tells us that grace teaches us, us to say no to sin. But what I am saying is that even how you communicated and the emotional world in which you communicated still says something about your love for people. Your love, like if there is a dishonoring of people and not a dignifying of people in these gifts, is something off.

Preston Perry (54:54)

Since, since, since we're here, I'm, I'm just, I might as well just say it. Can I say it?

Tish Harrison Warren (55:01)

We'll edit it.

Preston Perry (55:02)

If it's crazy, I'm going just say it. I, I think the way I think how we got here is because we're talking about spiritual maturity. And I think in talking about spiritual maturity we have a lot of people who, who are, who are immature in the faith because they're listening to people who are not actually in the faith. They're just listening to people who are actually not in the faith. And I think that when we think about. Because listen, I think it's the truth, right? Because I think I think the reason why you don't see, you don't see grief in communicating these warnings or these prophecies is because their reward is actually people believing them. That's their reward. And so you see a satisfaction. But this is the scary part. The reason why they confident that their word will come to pass is because they're actually hearing from the spiritual world, but not Jesus. Jesus, they're hearing from demons. And so what's happening is y' all are listening to people who are actually hearing. You are actually, you're hearing from people who are actually hearing and they're actually praying on the demise of real Christians. And then the moment something falls or the moment something happens, they get the satisfaction to see saying, told you I was right. You're hearing from demons, you're hearing from people who talk to demons. That's the truth. And it's like, but, but if you are a mature Christian says, I'm not going to pay attention to what happens and what don't happen, I'm going to pay attention to, do you look like Jesus? Knowing what Jesus looks like, you know, what he doesn't look like. And so, and so that is how, you know, maybe I might be listening to somebody who's acting like a Christian but has an altar in their room.

Tish Harrison Warren (57:05)

Well, that's what itching ears is, is that, you know, when you have an itching ear.

Preston Perry (57:10)

Am I making sense?

Tish Harrison Warren (57:11)

Yeah.

Preston Perry (57:11)

Okay.

Tish Harrison Warren (57:12)

When you have an itching ear, it says you accumulate teachers to suit your own passions. And as I've communicated in my sermon on it, it's like you, the only way you can accumulate teachers that suit your own passions, those teachers have to share those same passions. Passions. And so those teachers are submitted to those same things that you two are submitted to. And that's why they teach what they teach. And so I think the responsibility comes back on us to have a self awareness about ourselves, our desire for power, our desire for attention, our desire for fame, even how I think having a root of bitterness is coloring a lot of this stuff where we are channeling our anger and our pain through the prophetic rather than surrendering that to God as a refuge. And so I think when we deal with our hearts, it naturally clarifies our ears and who we listen to.

Preston Perry (58:00)

That's so good. That's so good.

Tish Harrison Warren (58:01)

I think that's a huge thing.

Preston Perry (58:02)

We watched a documentary about a cult last night.

Tish Harrison Warren (58:04)

Oh, man.

Preston Perry (58:05)

Yeah, that was a very, that was a very interesting documentary. But I think the reason why it's so important for us to Grow in spiritual maturity. Because if we don't grow in spiritual maturity, we'll actually land in the. In the hands of a cult leader who actually.

Tish Harrison Warren (58:25)

Sometimes.

Preston Perry (58:25)

Sometimes. Or a false prophet who actually just really feed our flesh, right? And so when you listen to a lot of these false prophets, a lot of the people that listen to them, they're just people who feel seen by them, they feel fed by them. It's like, okay, I was misused. And so I'm gonna target people who feel misused in the church, and I'm gonna feed them this and feed them that. And that's how a lot of people gain followers. And so, like, growing in spiritual maturity actually. Actually helps you not to be, you know, swayed by any false doctrine because you're actually being motivated by the right things and not your insecurities.

Tish Harrison Warren (59:02)

Spiritual maturity. And we're going to move on. But even spiritual maturity doesn't just show itself in following. That's why Paul in Ephesians 4, if you remember, the verse I said said is like, as you grow up into Christ, you won't be tossed to and fro by every wind and wave of doctrine.

Preston Perry (59:21)

Doctrine, yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (59:22)

The maturity keeps you from the deceit. But it's not just following probably the wrong communicator. Sometimes immaturity is following the right communicator, but in a divisive way. And what I mean is, in First Corinthians 3, Paul says, but our brothers could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh. As infants in Christ, I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you are not ready. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still in the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, I follow Paul and another I follow Apollo, are you not being merely human? And so even how we move within the church context, even when it comes to leaders like Paul, who is solid and trustworthy, Apollos who is solid and trustworthy, that whole I'm on Apollo. I follow pastor this or I follow pastor that, or jealousy and envy and covetousness. When that stuff is present within the church community, it also means that there's immaturity present. But what I was reading this text a couple days ago go. And what really struck me about it is that the way Paul describes immaturity as is. As being merely human. And I'm like, that's so interesting to say that. Where it's like, no, like, when you came to Christ and you're filled with the Holy Spirit. You are a human, but you are now a spiritual person because you are filled with the spirit. And immaturity is you leaning into the human side more than you lean into the spiritual side. And I just think that's a really interesting question to ask ourselves. I was even asking myself because I was just seeing stuff in my heart where I was just like, oh, I'm being just human. Yeah, I'm just being human. And we use that as a validation of our weaknesses. But Paul is using it as a warning to say like, no, God has called you higher. He hasn't called you to be less than human, but he has called you to be more. And you can only do that by power.

Preston Perry (61:25)

That's really good. That's really good. Well, as we, I was, as we were preparing for this podcast, I just started to just think about spiritual immaturity, maturity, all the ways I've matured and all the ways that I need to mature. And I think for me, the thing that I've struggled with the most is my anger. I think anger is a huge stumbling block from preventing people from being spiritually mature.

Tish Harrison Warren (61:58)

Right.

Preston Perry (61:58)

Cause we talked about like, we talked about like not taking correction, not submitting to local authority and all of the things, but I think a lot of times like our like not having control over our emotions, but also like feeling like we're validated in how we respond. You know what I'm saying? And so like, man, like the last couple of months I've just been asking the Lord because cuz I've grown in that area significantly. Significantly. Right. I mean, I'm not chasing people around the store no more.

Tish Harrison Warren (62:29)

Nope.

Preston Perry (62:30)

But, but I do feel like the devil is always trying to make me go back there.

Tish Harrison Warren (62:35)

Yeah, always. Yeah.

Preston Perry (62:37)

Right. And, and, and the thing about my anger that the Lord has always just consistently like my anger has low key, been a thorn. It has. And the reason why it's a thorn is because the Holy Spirit is always reminded me how unrighteous it is. I am convinced that my anger is one of the most unrighteous things ever. It's like, cause I don't have a right to be angry. I don't have a right to respond.

Tish Harrison Warren (63:06)

We have a right to be angry.

Preston Perry (63:07)

Angry, but not sin. Not sin, not right. And so I don't have a right. And even, no even sometimes I don't have a right to be angry.

Tish Harrison Warren (63:15)

Yeah, there's unrighteous anger too.

Preston Perry (63:17)

There's unrighteous anger. So sometimes I Have a right. Like when somebody disrespect my wife, I have a right to be angry. When somebody is telling me about myself, I don't have a right to be angry. I need to repent, right? And I think our emotions are. It's the number one thing that, that gets in the way of our spiritual maturity. And so I think, man, for the believer to say, lord, I see myself and I know you see me. Help me. And so that's just been really my prayer. Like, look, Lord, I'm angry today. Like, some days I wake up and I'm like, this is a spirit. Nothing even happened. And I'm angry, you know, And I'm like, lord, help me, you know, And I think that that honesty with the Lord really helps us to, to grow in maturity. Because it's like the Lord love. Like I love when my daughter Eden, she's 11 now, she comes to me and I love how self aware she is and how much she takes responsibility. And so there is a graciousness that I have when I help her now, how much the Lord, when we say, lord, I'm a mess, yeah, Lord, I'm angry for no reason, like, help me. And I feel like the Lord will help if we're honest with him and honest with ourselves.

Tish Harrison Warren (64:32)

And talking about thorns, we don't know what Paul's thorn was, which I think is a wise choice by the spirit, spirit to lead him in that way because it means that we're able to see our thorns. In that text, I say that because Tim Keller, in his sermon, he talks about how, you know, the Lord is growing you up when you don't feel him as much, when you don't hear him as much. And now you are given the choice to have to trust that he's still there. And he used this metaphor where he talks about, you know, when I got a baby or a toddler or a toddler, if we're walking across the street, I'm holding the baby's hand, I'm holding the toddler's hand because they need my guidance, they need my nearness. Even my nearness is an assurance that everything will be okay. They were like, but as, as, as that baby grows up into a teenager, into an adult adult, they no longer need me to hold their hand. They know how to walk across the street, right? And I think that is a really, really hard season or many seasons of the Christian life when you feel this shift where it's like you pray for that to lift. And five years ago, it felt like the Lord would just make it easy. And it's like, no, now I gotta like fast and. And now I gotta like cry. And now I got like. I remember telling God, I was like, so you just want me on my face all the time? And he's like, yeah, that, that's what grown ups do. That, that's grown up Christianity is that grown up Christianity is. Now you are coming to terms with the degree of your dependence and you're obeying.

Preston Perry (66:17)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (66:17)

You understand what I'm saying? And so I think even what you talking about, your wrestle with anger, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think I want to help people know that. It doesn't mean that you don't know God because you're still wrestling.

Preston Perry (66:34)

That's good.

Tish Harrison Warren (66:35)

It doesn't mean. It just means that God is training you to trust him, you know, like he's training you. And I say training on purpose because that's what a trial is. It's training you. I often think about Abraham a lot and how God did not give Abraham them the test of sacrificing Isaac first. You know what I'm saying? He gave them the test of, all right, you're gonna leave her and you gonna go to a place I'm gonna tell you to go. So the first test was him sacrificing something he loved to follow God. Then he had other tests and he had other tests and eventually God gave him the test of Isaac. That wasn't a new test, it was just different. But it had a degree of intensity that God had already prepared him for. That's what maturity is, is that God has already been preparing. He is always prepar win. It's just us who struggle. So I don't know.

Preston Perry (67:28)

Yeah, that's.

Tish Harrison Warren (67:29)

I don't know if that made sense.

Preston Perry (67:30)

No, it made a lot of sense. I think what it reminded me of is kind of, you know, the transition that I had when we came to Atlanta. I had men like. Cause I think oftentimes, especially for the Christian who says, I'm in a local community, I'm in this. I'm. That I'm growing in faith. And now like I'm in this weird season. Cause for a long time I had our pastor Brian die, who had walked with me and discipled me and taught me, and I always had him to kind of lean on. But when we went to Atlanta, I didn't have that person. And I remember you telling me, it's like, man, maybe the Lord is trying to get some deeper intimacy out of you. And so when I Will call Brian. And Brian would say, well, you're actually getting out of this discipleship kind of relationship with me, and you're actually becoming more of a friend. But I didn't know how to even adjust to that because I'm like, I still need you to tell me what to do.

Tish Harrison Warren (68:28)

And it's like, no, God's taking the trainer's wheels off.

Preston Perry (68:29)

Yeah, he's taking the training wheels off. He's basically saying, no. Like, you're actually. You don't even realize. I think a lot of times, even when we are maturing, we don't even realize how much we mature. Cause it's like we don't actually see our growth. Like, as we're getting taller over the years, we don't see our growth. We just look up and be like, we're grown. You know what I'm saying? And I think for me, it was weird when God started to take the training with. Because it's like, lord, okay, you usually give me a sign through people, or it's like, no, like, I actually just want you to fast now. I actually just want you to pray now. I gave you a house with a basement for a reason, not to watch sports all day, for you to seek my face. Everything is not going to be, you know, a community of older believers that's giving you the game all the time. And so I think for me, the Lord has really challenged me to grow in my faith. To say, man, at the end of the day, it's still about me and you.

Tish Harrison Warren (69:25)

Preston, you know how the Lord is. Did I cut you off?

Preston Perry (69:29)

No, I was not.

Tish Harrison Warren (69:30)

How the Lord has taken the training wheels off for me is, you know, like, I. The Lord does speak to me prophetically a lot, whether primarily through dreams or if I'm praying, he'll, you know, lay something on my heart and my mind, things like that. In the last year or two years, that has lessened. And for a long time, I thought, like, am I a sin? Like, is something wrong? And I realized that the Lord wanted me to simply depend on what he already said. And it's not to say that the canon ain't closed and that dreams are new revelation. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, is that the Lord was stripping away kind of these mystical forms of communication to deepen my trust in his promises. And it's been crazy to experience me saying, all right, Lord, I don't know what to do here. And I'll just open up to it when I say I will. Open up to a random passage, and by random, it might be Obadiah Fire, you know what I'm saying? And it would be like the Lord would highlight a verse that's an answer to the question I just asked. But it's all been the Word, and I think that's why is that. Who is that that went to the cave? Elijah, where he's like, the Lord ain't in the wind. The Lord ain't in thunder. The Lord ain't in the. He and the still, small voice. And I think maturity, that's when he

Preston Perry (71:00)

fled because Bathsheba was trying to kill him, right?

Tish Harrison Warren (71:02)

Bathsheba is crazy.

Preston Perry (71:04)

Not B. Sheba. Not Bathsheba. What was her name?

Tish Harrison Warren (71:08)

Jezebel.

Preston Perry (71:08)

Jezebel was trying to kill him. I'm sorry I said Bathsheba. That's crazy. I be getting them confused. I don't know why you should not. I feel like they was both bogus women.

Tish Harrison Warren (71:16)

B.A. was not bogus.

Preston Perry (71:18)

No, she wasn't. I'm sorry.

Tish Harrison Warren (71:20)

She was. She was minding her business on the roof. You understand what I'm saying? King talking about. Come here. What she going to say?

Preston Perry (71:26)

No, that's the story you talking about. When Jezebel, like.

Tish Harrison Warren (71:30)

Because the prophets of baal, he came for them. Da, da, da. Exposed them as false prophets. And then Jezebel was like, okay, I'm gonna kill you. He runs.

Preston Perry (71:37)

Oh, yeah. That's when he. That's when he flexes on him and he did that whole little demonstration. This is the real God.

Tish Harrison Warren (71:42)

I love this Bible study. So he's outside cave. And the Lord basically is like. He's not communicating to him through all of these dramatic means. And mind you, he just did. He just put fire down on the thing to show himself strong. But now with the prophet, he's like. He's communic in a still, small voice. And I think some of us might be in seasons where we feel like God is not with us because he's not as loud as he used to be, or he's not as quick to respond to our requests. And that's why we have to learn how to wait on the Lord. That's why we gotta learn how to get in that book. That's why we gotta build our biblical literacy. Because he has spoken, he is communicating, he is talking, but he's doing it through this in ways to deepen your faith and your dependence in him. And it's basically like he's like, I'm not walking you across the street. Street no more. You know how to get over there.

Preston Perry (72:36)

Yeah, I love. I love that you use that example, because I think it kind of deepened, like, it kind of goes deeper than what we're talking about earlier. Because for the person who looks for, like, their spiritual maturity, looking a certain way based on, like, how much they're being used or how much they're hearing, and for you to say, I'm not hearing like I used to, but God is still growing me in spirit, spiritual maturity, because he's actually not allowing me to hear.

Tish Harrison Warren (73:04)

Yeah, he is speaking.

Preston Perry (73:05)

He is speaking.

Tish Harrison Warren (73:06)

Yeah. He's just not speaking in the way. Because it's convenient to just go to sleep, have a dream. And that give you clarity. I didn't have to work for that. I just took a nap. You understand what I'm saying? It's another thing for the Lord to force you on your face. Like Nehemiah, who prayed for months and months and months and months before the thing is released and before the thing is like God, that. That. That produces patience, that produces hope, that produces character, endurance. And those are the things that God is trying to work into us. And so that's why I think for those who might have a prophetic bent, or for those of us who really need these kind of really big flashing lights, if the Lord has kind of withdrew in that way, it's not that he's not near, is that he's making you great, grow up. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. He's deepening your prayer life, and he's also helping you to read scripture more.

Preston Perry (74:02)

That's good. That's good.

Tish Harrison Warren (74:04)

I got something else to say.

Preston Perry (74:06)

You always got something to say.

Tish Harrison Warren (74:07)

But I'll just say this. I was reading this book by Elizabeth, Elizabeth Elliot, and she was talking about, towards the end, about trials and circumstances. That's what I. That's what we need to say. Talking about trials and circumstances and how God's aim is that we would all become spiritual mothers and fathers. And I haven't thought about that a lot because, yeah, I feel like I'm still young, but I do feel like there is a transition where it's like, no, the Lord is like, he's growing you up so you can pour more. You know what I'm saying? And John 15 routine is really helpful. I am the true vine. My father is the vine dresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. And every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes that it may bear more fruit. That text is necessary because ultimately the spirit of God is the means by which we are maturing. So our spiritual disciplines help us. Obviously they're necessary, but trials, they're helpful responding to that. But is God using the spiritual Me or using the spiritual disciplines, God using the trials and the circumstances to do the work of pruning so that we would bear more fruit. And I say that because it. I just want to help us relax and know that if I'm in Christ, I will mature.

Preston Perry (75:36)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (75:36)

If I'm in Christ, I will change.

Preston Perry (75:39)

Yeah.

Tish Harrison Warren (75:39)

If I am in Christ, I will be conformed into the. I was predestined for this conformity, so it will happen.

Preston Perry (75:45)

That's good.

Tish Harrison Warren (75:45)

You know what I'm saying? That's Ephesians, that's Bible. Or is that Romans? It's probably both. Both, Both.

Preston Perry (75:51)

Both Ephesians and Romans talk about being conformed.

Tish Harrison Warren (75:54)

And so it's like, I just want us to relax our shoulders a bit and know that the Lord is our shepherd, you shall not want. He is leading us beside still waters. All we gotta do is follow. And the places where we don't follow are the places where we gotta grow. Yeah. And.

Preston Perry (76:10)

Cause God is all knowing, he's sovereign. And I think what you're essentially saying is you don't have to rush mature maturity. You have to just be in the right place.

Tish Harrison Warren (76:19)

Yeah. Just rest.

Preston Perry (76:20)

Just rest. Rest in. Rest in God. Dwell within community. And the Holy Spirit will orchestrate conversations, relationships, situations, trials, tests. I love how Tim Keller said, you know, something is either a trial or a test, depending on how you respond to it. And I think a lot of times when the enemy throws something, something at us, it can be a trial. If we just mold.

Tish Harrison Warren (76:45)

It says a trial or a temptation.

Preston Perry (76:47)

A trial or temptation. Yeah. You know, and I. I think that, like, God is using every single circumstances to conform us into the image of Jesus, but also to grow us in spiritual maturity, to grow us in faith. And so just have faith that everything is working out for the good of those who love God and called according to his purpose. Literally everything.

Tish Harrison Warren (77:08)

So that's all we got. We'll have Tim Keller's sermon in the show notes. I really believe everybody should listen to it. I think it is just a really helpful framework for how to define where you might be on the Christian maturity scale. It'll even give you language for how to pray for those around you who might be immature. Gives you a bit of grace and empathy for where they are. And ultimately we are all just trying to journey on towards home. That's it. Yeah. Bye. Peace with the Perrys. Is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop thank you for listening. Now go with God.