Cults, Neo-Prosperity Gospel and the Church

Summary

With The Perrys — “Cults, Neo-Prosperity Gospel and the Church”

Release Date: March 11, 2024
Hosts: Jackie Hill Perry, Preston Perry
Guest: Dr. Eric Mason

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Overview

This episode tackles the influence of cults, the rise of neo-prosperity gospel in modern church culture, and the challenges and opportunities facing the American church today—especially within Black communities. Jackie and Preston Perry hold an honest and humorous conversation with Dr. Eric Mason (pastor, author, and theologian), unpacking themes like religious identity, discipleship failures, cultural trends in faith, and the need for re-centering Christ in church life. The Perrys and Dr. Mason discuss how churches, leaders, and everyday believers can respond to the allure of cults, shifting the focus back to biblical faithfulness, and address the sacredness (or lack thereof) in contemporary Christian spaces.

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Key Points & Insights

1. Cultural Principalities and Cities

[00:40 – 02:51]

• The hosts joke about the “spirits” and unique challenges in cities like Atlanta (greed, lust), Chicago (anger, violence), Boston (intellectualism), and Miami (sensuality), highlighting how spiritual culture shapes both church and society.
• “I do believe that there are principalities over places where you see... cultural emphasis.” — Jackie Perry [02:08]

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2. Urban Apologetics & Black Identity

[02:57 – 05:36]

• Dr. Mason’s motivation behind writing “Urban Apologetics: Cults and Cultural Ideologies” was to address deep identity questions in the Black community: “Who are we? Not just who are we in Christ, but where do I come from?” [03:24]
• The book dives into the mishmash of competing Black identity claims (Moors, Hebrew Israelites, Nubians) and their religious intersections, and why cults gain traction.
• Dr. Mason: “There’s no people in the world that has the most historically confusing identity [than African Americans].” [03:45]
• Christians need to become better thinkers and more missional: “I don’t think we do evangelism no more. I think we just attract people to stuff.” [05:29]

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3. Why Don’t People Read or Think Deeply Anymore?

[05:39 – 06:36]

• Dr. Mason blames shrinking attention spans and the shift from reading to consuming short-form digital content.
• “If something’s artistically done well and intellectually delectable enough in a sound bite, they’ll accept it as an original source.” [05:58]

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4. The Church’s Evangelism Crisis

[06:37 – 07:52]

• Christians today may feel embarrassed about Christianity due to “church hurt” and a desire for cultural acceptance.
• “Christians are embarrassed of being Christians in some ways nowadays.” — Dr. Mason [06:54]
• Syncretism is a growing problem, with churches absorbing cultural trends instead of shaping culture prophetically.

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5. Cultural “Passes” and Perceived Hypocrisy

[07:53 – 10:33]

• Preston asks why behaviors accepted in other faiths (like Islam) draw harsher judgment when found in Christianity.
• Dr. Mason suggests it’s because, deep down, people sense Christianity’s truth claims—so the standard is higher, the hypocrisy more glaring.
• “Islam can get away with... but then if we do it, we’re hypocrites.” — Dr. Mason [09:19]

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6. Defining “Cult,” “Cultic,” and “Cultish” Tendencies

[10:34 – 15:23]

• Dr. Mason lays out three categories:
  • Cult: Claims exclusive truth, isolates followers, uses deception.
  • Cultic: Has some behaviors/tendencies of a cult (overly controlling, e.g., prosperity gospel).
  • Cultish: Micro-control, e.g., when churches pressure members about attendance or other minor life aspects.
• “Whenever you take Christ out the center, you’ve automatically become some type of cult.” — Dr. Mason [15:21]

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7. Why Cults Target Christians

[16:07 – 18:16]

• Most major cults and alternative religions (Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Nation of Islam, Hebrew Israelites, etc.) focus on winning former/professing Christians.
• “They prey on the fact that traditionally we’re good at gathering people but not forming people.” — Dr. Mason [17:21]
• The church’s lack of solid discipleship leaves many vulnerable to doctrinal confusion and cultural counterfeits.

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8. The Problem of Shallow Discipleship

[18:17 – 20:32]

• Most believers can’t answer basic theological questions about the Trinity, Christ’s divinity/humanity, or scriptural authority.
• “Sometimes it’s just stuff you should just know... and that’s the humanism that’s seeped into Christianity.” — Dr. Mason [19:27]

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9. Black Communities: Knowledge Gaps or Just a Public Perception?

[20:33 – 23:07]

• Discipleship is happening, but there’s an “appetite” problem—bad theology and viral but shallow content spread easily.
• Dr. Mason prophesies a “pruning” in leadership, church memberships, and even church existence itself—God is calling for holiness, mission, and authenticity.

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10. Season of Pruning and Revival

[23:08 – 27:06]

• God is pruning false teachers and exposing scandals.
• Church rosters and even whole churches will be “pruned out of existence” if they fail to represent Christ’s reign.
• Dr. Mason: “He wants us to be missionaries again... wants us to care about holiness again...” [24:24]

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11. Leaning Into Pruning and Suffering

[27:07 – 28:18]

• “Suffering is one of those mechanisms of spiritual formation in our life.” — Dr. Mason [28:06]
• Christians need to be equipped for suffering; it’s a normalized part of discipleship according to Acts 14.

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12. Deconstruction: Two On-Ramps

[28:19 – 32:09]

• Disappointment: Pain over church failures, hypocrisy, or racial wounds.
• Moral License: Wanting freedom for personally-desired behaviors (e.g., “I want to smoke this weed, I want to smash…”)
• Deconstruction can be honest and healthy or an excuse for self-justification.
• “99.9%... it was fundamentally moral.” — Dr. Mason [30:17]

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13. Identity, Deconstruction, and Alternative Communities

[32:10 – 35:32]

• Many seeking deeper identity or “being seen” leave the church for groups that affirm Black dignity (Hebrew Israelites, Nation of Islam, witchcraft communities).
• Dr. Mason: The church must be a place for skepticism, honest questions, and “Doubt Night”—“God’s not scared of any question you got, fam.” [34:54]

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14. What Makes a Good Church? Non-Negotiables and Practical Red Flags

[35:33 – 42:38]

• Essential marks: preaching/teaching, worship, evangelism, elders/deacons, church discipline, sacraments.
• Don’t equate popular/big churches with faithful ones—many are drawn by production and personalities, not spiritual depth.
• “Open-handed issues” (e.g. music style) vs. “close-handed” (core doctrine/Christ centeredness).

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15. Sacredness (or Lack Thereof) in the Pulpit

[42:39 – 48:00]

• There’s a contemporary trend toward informality, humor, and relatability, sometimes at the expense of reverence.
• Dr. Mason warns about preachers seeking laughs or attention: “We can’t story people to death... can’t rhetorical language people to death.” [43:47]
• Levity is good, but don’t distract or diminish God’s word from the pulpit.

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16. Neo-Prosperity Gospel Explained

[49:59 – 52:22]

• Neo-prosperity gospel is a “purpose-driven” distortion: “If you find your purpose, you’ll be rich.”
• True purpose is the Great Commission and serving God; doctor/lawyer/writer is an assignment, not a purpose.
• Current culture blends self-realization with prosperity narratives, repackaging greed as “destiny” or “calling.”
• “Every big movement… there’s always going to be a spiritualized version of it in the church.” — Dr. Mason [53:36]

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17. Greed, Self-Centered Hermeneutics and the Danger of Subtle Prosperity Teaching

[54:36 – 63:33]

• The prosperity gospel and its softer “purpose-driven” forms both remove Christ from the center.
• Subtle versions of greed drive self-centered reading of scripture and church culture: “What are you trying to communicate to me? That’s the neo-prosperity gospel.” — Dr. Mason [59:47]
• Pastors must confess temptations toward self-glorification and regularly examine motives.

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18. Rebranding the Church: Returning to Christ-Centeredness

[63:34 – 66:16]

• Rebranding isn’t reinvention, but returning to being the church “the way God designed it”—marked by the glory and presence of Jesus.
• “Not just having answers with our lips, but also having answers with our life… at least be in process, not being defiant.” — Dr. Mason [65:40]

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19. Final Encouragement

[66:17 – End]

• Dr. Mason’s prayer: readers and listeners will “be passionate about being responsible for the Christian faith. Own it… like Kobe Bryant. Take it seriously. Take it as your craft.” [66:26]

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Notable Quotes

• Dr. Eric Mason: “Whenever you take Christ out the center, you’ve automatically become some type of cult.” [15:21]
• Dr. Eric Mason: “They prey on the fact that traditionally we’re good at gathering people but not forming people.” [17:21]
• Dr. Eric Mason: “God is going to be removing… churches are going to literally be coming out of existence because God is like, you’re not going to go plant rebelly out here. And I’m not even lighting this lampstand.” [24:24]
• Jackie Hill Perry: “When I think about how the teaching now has such a self-centered hermeneutic. Is that not greed? Is that not reinforcing a lack of self-denial?” [58:54]
• Dr. Eric Mason: “I just want to see us shine well… not just having answers with our lips, but also having answers with our life.” [65:16]
• Dr. Eric Mason: “Be passionate about being responsible for the Christian faith. Own it.” [66:26]

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Timestamps by Topic

• Cultural Spirituality in Cities: 00:40–02:51
• Urban Apologetics & Black Identity: 02:57–05:36
• Short Attention Spans & Shallow Thinking: 05:39–06:36
• Church’s Evangelism Crisis: 06:37–07:52
• Cultural “Passes” for Islam vs. Christianity: 07:53–10:33
• Defining Cult/Cultic/Cultish: 10:34–15:23
• Why Cults Target Christians: 16:07–18:16
• Shallow Discipleship & Vulnerability: 18:17–20:32
• Discipleship in Black Community/Public Perception: 20:33–23:07
• Season of Pruning & Revival: 23:08–27:06
• Suffering as Formation: 27:07–28:18
• Deconstruction: Causes & Responses: 28:19–35:32
• What Makes a Good Church?: 35:33–42:38
• Sacredness in the Pulpit: 42:39–48:00
• Neo-Prosperity Gospel: 49:59–53:36
• Cultural Trends Spiritualized: 53:37–54:36
• Subtle Greed and Platforming: 54:36–63:33
• Church Rebranding: 63:34–66:16
• Final Encouragement: 66:17–End

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Episode Tone

Warm, direct, frequently humorous, and often prophetic—plenty of honesty and the kind of relational, real talk that’s both challenging and inviting to deeper reflection.

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Recommended For:
Anyone wrestling with Christian identity, church culture, discernment of teaching, or the pull of alternative religious/identity movements—especially those inside African American church communities, church leaders, or anyone hungry for a return to biblical and missional Christianity.

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Book Mentioned:
“Urban Apologetics: Cults and Cultural Ideologies” by Dr. Eric Mason

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Transcript

[Jackie Perry]

Hi, saints and a. How art thou?

[Preston Perry]

What up with y'?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

All?

[Jackie Perry]

So I have a question. When did it become a style for y' all to have white chalk on y' all lining?

[Preston Perry]

I got white chalk on my line right now.

[Jackie Perry]

It's a little bit there.

[Preston Perry]

Why you had to point it out.

[Jackie Perry]

For the people, babe? I. I thought that was. I know. That's like the style in Chicago.

[Preston Perry]

If I. If I got it on me, it's an accident.

[Jackie Perry]

Oh, it's okay.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Okay.

[Jackie Perry]

It just looks.

[Preston Perry]

Now I'm self conscious.

[Jackie Perry]

It looks mighty criminal anyway.

[Preston Perry]

You such a jerk.

[Jackie Perry]

I am kind of a jerk, but the Lord is keeping me. You. You know how. Like, you. I just have those moments where I just have an attitude, and I have to try my best to not have an attitude. That's how I feel right now.

[Preston Perry]

Why you got attitude?

[Jackie Perry]

Just things happen. And so. But I'm pushing. I'm going. Cause the enemy, he not going to steal my ability to show up and walk by the spirit. And so we thank you for your love and your grace, Lord, and we pray that you would meet us here today. We have Pastor bishop, Reverend Apostle Dr. Eric Mason with us today.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Oh, hello. Thank y' all for having me amazed. Thank y' all for. Oh, I got some. Got some crummage.

[Preston Perry]

Eating muffins.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Amen.

[Preston Perry]

What's good, man?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Hey, I'm good. I'm good. What's up with y'? All? Glad to be here in. In the infamous living room with all of the art. El Boogie at the top. I love it. I love it. Black fist up there. The ladies, they like this, though. I can't do that, though. That one.

[Jackie Perry]

When you land.

[Preston Perry]

Don't do that anymore.

[Jackie Perry]

When you landed in Atlanta, did you see any of the principalities?

[Preston Perry]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jackie Perry]

And rulers and authorities here?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I was with immediate. Immediately.

[Preston Perry]

What's crazy is you just asked him that question, but I was with him yesterday, and he was calling him out.

[Jackie Perry]

Oh, what is. What?

[Preston Perry]

I can't say.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

We can't do that conversation.

[Preston Perry]

I can't say it on the podcast. That's a. That's a. That's a. What's it After Podcast conversation.

[Jackie Perry]

I want to know.

[Preston Perry]

I was like, this man is seeing all kind of stuff because this is. It's a lot of demons walking through Atlanta.

[Jackie Perry]

It's a lot of demons in Atlanta. It's a particular kind of demon. It's like a worldly demon, a greed demon, a lust demon. And I know people are like, you know. But I do believe that there are principalities over places where you see, like, this kind of cultural emphasis in a certain.

[Preston Perry]

We kind of talked about that yesterday, me and Eric Mason. We was like. When we go to Chicago, we feel like everybody's angry.

[Jackie Perry]

They're angry and violent.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's Philly.

[Preston Perry]

And Philly, too.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Philly, too.

[Preston Perry]

When you come here, it's like everybody.

[Jackie Perry]

Just lust buckets and greedy and self. Or a lot of selfish ambition.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

In the church and in the world. But then you go to, like, a Boston highly intellectual. Right. You go to a Miami. Kind of, like sensual.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

It's interesting. Kind of like I was trying to be gracious, you know? But anyway, go ahead.

[Preston Perry]

What's up, man? So, man, you wrote another book? I'm gonna show the people. Urban Apologetics Part two.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. With some folks. Yeah. Cults and cultural ideologies.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

So Urban Apologetics, the first Urban apologetic books was really dope.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

I'm gonna be honest. I haven't read this one yet, but I read the first one.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

It's all good.

[Preston Perry]

You know, we keep it real on the Perry's. I ain't read this one yet.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

But.

[Preston Perry]

I read the first one.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Why?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Why?

[Preston Perry]

Why? Second Urban Apologetics book.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. So I couldn't fit everything in the first one. You know, we just couldn't. And I wanted to deal with, you know, the first book in my mind at the time, as y' all know, we were just dealing with a ton of black identity issues. You know, I felt like when we were addressing black people with the gospel, we were addressing them intellectually, but weren't dealing with the historical affections of black people. And that's, who are we? Not just who are we in Christ? Where do I come from? And if that's not important, why do so many African Americans seek out things that help connect them back to Africa? Or, you know, because, I mean, like, this is like this. You got a group out there that says, we're, you know, we're the original. We're Califians. We're blacks from America. We're the original aboriginals. You got the Moors saying, we're Moors. You got the other one saying, we're Nubians and Egyptians. Then you got the Hebrew Israelites saying, we're the. So there's no people in the world that has the most historically confusing identity. And I believe that's why God said, don't move the borders that the. That. That God has set up. Because when you move those borders, it causes identity disorder, which is a whole nother subject. But that affected us so deep, you know, being misplaced. And so that's. Yeah, so that. That. That. That has affected us to this day. So that's what that book is about. This one, I felt like it wasn't just black identity. What are the other cults and cultural ideologies that. That we dealt with? Because I started seeing that those were cults that we were talking. Some of those were cults. Not all of those are cults, but different groups and different cults. And then these cultural ideologies, everything from Christian nationalism, black liberation theology, and then going into the culture of deconstructing culture, and then whole idea cult. So as I started looking at all that stuff, I said, man, we need to separate this book from this one even, and try to have some sections broke down to help Christians to. Because I think Christians need to be better thinkers. And I know we'll talk about it at some point, but I don't think we're missiologists anymore. I don't think. I don't think we do evangelism no more. I think we just attract people to stuff, and I don't think we're thinking concertedly about how to biblically, lovingly, and practically engage people with the gospel.

[Preston Perry]

Well, you know, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[Jackie Perry]

Why do you think people aren't thinking?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, because I think that they don't read anymore. Like, all of us have had. Got book deals or whatever.

[Jackie Perry]

Right, right.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

One of the things that they tell you is that people don't read like they used to. You got to figure out ways to get them to. You know, people are educated people because of videos and everything reels. They have very, very short attention spans. And so if something's artistically done well and intellectually delectable enough in a sound bite, they'll accept it as an original source. And so if I can get that through 30 seconds, 90 seconds, three minutes on TikTok or, you know, eight minutes on YouTube, and that's literally the Cliff Notes to what you were going to tell me in an hour and a half or that it would take me a week to read, I'll take these. And so I think that's where we are, and I think that's why people are not thinking. They don't think anymore.

[Preston Perry]

Another question. Why do you think that we strayed away from evangelism? Why? Why you think the church is not as evangelistic as it used to be?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's a heck of a question. The reason why I think that we strayed away from Evangelism is because everything from the church hurt culture to church hate culture. We almost feel embarrassed, not of the gospel, but of what we'd be talking about bringing them into. And so I kind of feel like there's this. I think Christians are embarrassed of being Christians in some ways nowadays. And so there's been. That's why it's a lot of syncretism and people going into wanting to be just culturally accepted. And with that cultural acceptance. Of course, that was the Corinthians. Corinthians wanted. That's Paul's whole first. Corinthians was his whole idea of, y' all love the culture, but y' all don't. Y' all don't have a disposition towards being prophetic. Y' all like the prophetic gift for showing off, but you don't like the prophetic gift of walking and living in truth. And so I think that we're in an era where the church really, you know, needs to be rebranded.

[Preston Perry]

I have another question. Okay. Every time you say something, this sparks another question to me. Yesterday, yesterday, when we was hanging out, I asked you a question, and then we talked about how, like, when we engaged with, you know, the Nation of Islam and how sometimes these Muslim faiths, they can get away with things that sometimes the Christian faith absolutely can't get away with.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Absolutely.

[Preston Perry]

Right. And so when you see, like, a Louis Farrakhan on the Breakfast Club, engaging culture, mingling with the rappers, and their faith is not perfect either. Why do you think that some things are more socially acceptable in culture when it comes to other faiths doing things opposed to, like, Christians?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, I think it's real simple. I think Ecclesiastes chapter three has the most interesting verse in says, for God has put eternity in their heart, that they won't know the things that were done, I think, before time, basically. And so when you study that verse, it literally means that God has put the reality that he exists in everyone. Right. But people fill it. That's what Ecclesiastes is about. They fill it with other things. But I think that there's a sense in which spiritually, people know that Christianity is true. I do. And that doesn't affect my depravity doctrine. It affirms it. And so what I think happens is that's why Islam can get, like, in my city. And I love Philly, my city. But you can like dudes. Most drug dealers in Philly named Nair, Nasir, Naim, Amir, they come from Muslim families. During Ramadan, them Bamas, man, they coloring their beard Red and then putting on their whole situation. Girls, you know, wilding, drinking in the club, Boom, boom, boom. You know, then Ramadan, all that come, bro, they head covered. And I'm sitting in there like, we could never get away from that. It's rappers out here smashing mad chicks, smoking weed. I mean, you don't eat pork, but you a whoremonger, bro. Yeah. And so it's like. But then if we do it, we're hypocrites.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

If y' all do it, you know, if nobody says anything, I don't want to mention no names, but it's mad Muslims, like, they got podcasts and even 5 percenters, like. But it's interesting that. And I just think it's because people in the eternity in their hearts is signaling them that this is the beacon, you know, the cross is the cell tower to God, you know, So I just feel like they feel that that's good.

[Jackie Perry]

I'm wondering about even the way we use certain terms, right. So I think you hear people who have come from certain church traditions or certain institutions who will say, that was a cult. I know that was a cult. But if you ask, why is it a cult? They might just say, oh, they were overly legalistic, all the things. And so in your book, you do make a distinction between cult being cultic. Can you speak to that?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. So I got like, three levels. Cultic tendencies, cultish and cult. Now, let's go to cult first, because that's the easy. That's kind of the easier one to see. And we'll talk about how you get into a cult, but how they get you in cults, they tend to. They. They tend to fully have a disposition that they are the only way to the higher power.

[Jackie Perry]

Right.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so they tend to be the heavy isolationists and really isolate you from everything, because one of the things that they try to do is to get you fully consumed into the cult and isolate you so crazily from everything that they have fully deceived you. So when we talk about cults, fundamentally, like I put it here, you know, from a religious perspective, a cult is often seen as a group who acts deceptively. So. And so, in other words, they act assembly. What do I mean by that? So they'll have. They'll use the same terminology that you and I use, but mean something totally different, like, so, you know, from ministering to Jehovah's Witnesses, right?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior? Absolutely. But then when you ask him, who is Jesus? Is he the eternal Son of God or is he the Archangel Michael? You know, if you ask, you know, you know, Seventh Day Adventists, if you ask them the same question, because they all. They cousins of each other. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists. They're like. They all. All of their founders were. They were all around at the same time.

[Jackie Perry]

I can hear SDA people right now like, no, he did not.

[Preston Perry]

Oh, my God.

[Jackie Perry]

Jehovah's Witness.

[Preston Perry]

You know, as soon as you said that, I said, because we have a lot of people who come from the Sea Church, and every time we talk about the Seven Day Adventists, we, like, they love. They're almost like, confused about, like, why are you even talking about our church? And maybe that's something that, you know, we probably should do some videos about that later. But, yeah, like, a lot of people don't even know the difference between, you know, orthodox Christianity and the sdt.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

If you. If you get in the book and you look at the prophecies of Ellen G. White, you look at Ellen G. White and their prophet and apostle and how they had. That she plagiarized most of her doctrine, fake prophecy, said Jesus came back in the 1800s. And you start. Then you ask them, who is Jesus? Like, they believe that since we worship on Sunday, that we. That's the mark of the beast, you know, so it's just like, like, like. But Ellen G. White, in her writings, tells them, do not, like, go in and act, like, use their term. It's literally we got in the book. It's like, literally, this is her saying this. It's not us making it up.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so to go back to your question, Jackie, that's what's so deceptive about cults. Like, if. When. Because they view her writings equal, if not greater than the word of God.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You know, and so that's. But cults are always like that. They. They act deceptively. You. You don't know. It's almost like a secret organization, you know, but you don't find out what it's really about until you're deeper into it. And so that's cult, which I would put. I would put. I wouldn't. I don't know if I would put SDA as a full court. Like, I would like a Jehovah's Witness. I would say, listen. I would say they were. They're called. Have they called. I'll say cultic between cult of tendencies. Because they don't fully isolate you away. Like those cults that say, we gonna all live in the commune together. You know, like the Waco Jones. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

That's.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's. That's. To me, that's. I don't. I wouldn't put them. I would be more gracious to them, even though I do believe they're cult. Cultic. Cultic is. It's just churches or groups that I would say that they are cultic tendencies, even though they swing between both that and occult. Cultish is when you know and I know, don't be mad at me. Some of my charismatic siblings, but you can't, you know, if you gonna not come to church that Sunday, you gotta call a pastor and let them know you're not coming. Or people are asking you, where were you? Why weren't you at church? If you're going to another church, let us know what church that is so that we can know if we agree with, like, just. That's that micro. And so I would say that micro control over your life, you know, Also cultic tendencies is prosperity stuff the prosperity. That's a cultic tendency, if not cultic, because it basically. Whenever you take Christ out the center, you've automatically become some type of cult.

[Jackie Perry]

Shawn Doe.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Like, whenever he not at the center of the jaw, you know, through him and for him, all things have been made. Once you put money at the center. I remember one prosperity preacher I'll never forget. He said. He said, I see money. He said, every time I open scriptures, all I see is money. And Jesus says, you search the scriptures for. You think in them you find eternal life. But they all speak of me. Yeah. So it's kind of like. And starting with Moses, he told them all of the things concerning himself in scripture. Did not our hearts burn like. It's like, bro, how you gonna say you see money above the Messiah?

[Jackie Perry]

Let's give a spirit.

[Preston Perry]

That's good. You know, why do you think a lot of cults target professing Christians?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

How much time we got, man?

[Jackie Perry]

And can you. Can you draw that out? Because what. Because I don't have context for even the question you're asking.

[Preston Perry]

Maybe he can draw it out.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. The reason why is most cults, if you look at Hebrew Israelites, look at Jehovah's Witnesses, you look at Seventh Day Adventists, which in their doctrine says they want to. Their job is to evangelize Protestantism.

[Jackie Perry]

Oh, got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Like Nation of Islam, they target most of their converts. You talk to most people in the Nation of Islam. Who do they say? I used to. I grew up in the church.

[Preston Perry]

I grew up in a church.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I was. I mean, everybody. And it's like, why do they target Christians?

[Preston Perry]

And that's one of the things that I've realized, engaging with different religions and different cults is they either came from the Christian church.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Or they all kind of have beef with the Christian church. I mean, you look at Mormonism, Joseph Smith said, all of our teachers are perverted and have fallen away and our teachers need to be restored. Charles Taze Russell, who started the Watchtower organization that became the Jehovah's Witnesses, he said that Christians are corrupt and yada, yada, yada. And then you have the Hebrew Israelites, you know, how they feel about us. Right. And so, like, they all kind of have this, but they never have beef with one another like that. But they all kind of target Christianity and attack Christians in that way.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Christianity, the church in America has been good at gathering people, but has done a poor job holistically discipling people. Wow. And they know that. Like when I was in college in the early 90s, when Public Enemy and, you know, Tribe Called Quest, all of them was out and all of them 5 percenters, we was on the campus and we would blast Christians, you know. And then when I became a believer, the reason I feel like God used the time as a non Christian, that I was influenced by the Nation of Islam and, you know, reading Meta Netta and all of that stuff with the Kemetic ideologies, reading Yela O Africa and, you know, Sheikh Auntie Diop and all these cats. Some people don't know who I'm talking about. But anyway, reading all this stuff that impacted how I was as a Christian.

[Jackie Perry]

Sound like speaking in tongues a little bit.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

It made me. I say I never want to be the Christian that's not able to fundamentally understand my faith enough to defend it. And so I just think that they prey on the fact that traditionally we're good at gathering people but not forming people. Like, if you ask the average believer, you believe Jesus Christ is God, show me where. How do you know he's man and God together? Where would you show him There? You know, is he 50% God, 50% man? Yeah, 75, 25. What if the Trinity, if you believe in the Trinity, where is that at? Right. If you believe the word of God is infallible, where do you. I mean, we talking about fundamental things, you know, and so I'm not saying you got to understand predestination. I'm not. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying you have to go to Alexandrian manuscripts out of Egypt and being able to read them and translate them to English. I'm just saying, bro.

[Preston Perry]

The key foundational principles.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

The key foundational principles, like, fundamentally. It's funny. And this is what's funny. Even in Acts 15, do you know, sexuality was a fundamental Bible doctrine that they taught. They said, teach these fundamental essentials. So that was in their new members packet. Wow. Like, because it was so much of a part of their culture. And so I think that we don't teach people well about the person of God. Like, I think we. I do think we teach about. We preach about God bringing us out of stuff, but I don't think we've trained people to not always have to have application when they're taught. Now, what do I mean by that? Sometimes it's just stuff. You should just know you don't need to. So what does that have to do with my life when somebody's like that? That's not a good disposition of discipleship. If you say, what does it have to do with my life that God is sovereign? Or what does it. It does do with your life. But you need to understand sovereignty, not just say, I'm going to put this under my tool belt because it resonates with me personally. And that's the humanism that seeped into Christianity. The only thing that I need from Christianity is what resonates with me, not what makes me a good soldier and warrior for the Lord so that I can know my faith. That's good. You're all I need.

[Jackie Perry]

Part of me is thinking about how I think in some Reformed traditions, Presbyterian, like, there is a high emphasis on learning and doctrine and intellectualism. And so would you say that this is a particular, I guess, attack on, like, black communities that, like, there isn't an emphasis that we see publicly when it comes to knowledge and discipleship and all the things. Or am I making that up?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, I think discipleship is happening, but I don't think. I think it's good discipleship happening. I think it's bad discipleship happening. So when I say discipleship, I'm talking about helping people to conform to the image of Christ. Right. I do think that there's a. There's just. I mean, it is. It's concerning to me what goes viral. Like, it really, like what people like, what doesn't go viral concerns me because it shows me what viral shows you appetite. It shows you appetite. And I just think that we are. This is what I believe is happening. I've been saying this almost every week in preaching. I believe we're in the center of John 15:3. God said. Jesus said, every branch in me that bears fruit, I prune it that it may bear more fruit. What do I believe? I believe God is doing. God has spoken to me about three very specific things. He's speaking to me that three things are going to be pruned. Number one, I'm pruning leaders. I'm pruning false leaders who are false teaching. I'm exposing them. Who have been fleeting the flock and who have been filling on the flock. God said it's going to be a hefty season of scandal excavation.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

The second thing that the Lord spoke very specifically. I don't talk like this. This is what he very specifically spoke to me about last year because I was asking. I was depressed after the pandemic because we lost 75% of our church.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so I was like ready to quit. And the Lord had to give me that word to keep me. He said, you can't go public with it now, but you're going to go public with it in about six months. And then when he showed me that, then I understood what's happening. And our church regrew and then grew more like, I'm still. I gotta get that on my church all over again. You know. So first it's pruning leaders. It's gonna be a lot of. And this is no shame and hate on anybody. It's gonna be a lot of things going public. Number two. Cause God's tired of it, bro.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Number two, he's going to be pruning church rosters and memberships. Right. And the last thing the Lord showed me is he's gonna be pruning churches out of existence. You know, Revelation 2 says, I'll remove your lampstand if you lose your first love. So in heaven, that's why local church is important. There's a plug for local church. Every local church that's a. That's a ordained station of God's presence on earth has a lampstand in heaven that Jesus Christ inspects constantly because it says he walks between the seven lampstands. That's what it says. And when those lampstands don't represent his reign properly. When most people think that Revelation 2 is just about doing your devotions. But that's not just with Revelation 2. In other words, if you look at the things that he said, you do. There was no. It wasn't that they didn't defend the faith. They didn't have any pastoral care. They didn't have any love for people. It was just we defend the faith and we stand on truth. Goes back to what you were saying about some of those more conservatives kind of hyper theological circles is that. And so I believe those three things are happening. God is going to be removing the churches are going to literally be coming out of existence. Church plants that have just started are going to be going out of existence because God is like, you're not going to go plant rebelly out here. And I'm not even lighting this lampstand. I'm just not even going to light it. We're not going to put a candle for you and it's over and it's going to be a drove up. And what I believe God is doing is he's distilling us down to a remnant because he wants us to be missionaries again. He wants us to be evangelists again. He wants us to care about character again. He wants us to care about holiness again. He wants us to represent him again. Like he doesn't mind us getting, you know, doing entrepreneurialism and, and, and, and securing the bag for the kingdom. But it's like, that's all we about, bro. You know, and so it's like God is like, I'm really, I'm wanting a real people of God. And so. But then he's also for the remnant. He, he's gonna be purging us, dealing with places in our lives that have been off limits to Him. You know, I tell a story of one time when I, when we first got our building in North Philly and we got, I mean, we was infested with all kinds of like, you open this door, just all stuff just in there.

[Jackie Perry]

You talking about rats and things, Everything.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Oh Lord, everything. We had bats.

[Jackie Perry]

Not bats.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yes.

[Jackie Perry]

We, you know, he had a pet bat. Oh, okay, nevermind.

[Preston Perry]

They had a pet back growing up. That's a whole nother story.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's deep, that's deep, that's deep. And so the exterminator came and he said, before I come in, you gotta open every door. And I was like, why? He said, I don't care if it has a door on it, I need you to open it. He said, because if I clean everything out without these other doors being open, the things that are in there when open will remigrate and infest all over again. So God was like, I need you. God's saying in this season, I need the body to open up. Doors that you've refused to open that have been off limits to me. Open up every single area of life. Because we're all going to go through some deep pruning. Marriages are going to go through pruning. I believe God's going to help singles to go through pruning so that they're not shamed in their singleness and that they're content in it. And if they want to get married again, I just believe God is going to do a lot of work. It's going to be a revival, but I don't think it's going to be like a drop down Holy Spirit revival. I think it's going to be a progressive revival. I really do.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Jackie Perry]

How do Christians lean into that, though? Because when I think of the. When I think of pruning, when I think of us becoming a remnant, when I think of all of that, I also think of suffering. I think of persecution. I think of like that, that, that is hard, difficult. And so how does even somebody prepare their lives in such a way, or their hearts or their faith in such a way to respond to God when that actually does happen?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, I think that we do people the disservice because we don't tell them the whole Christian life. And so when you look at Acts 14, it says in verses 19 through 25, it says, he preached the gospel to that inside city. They made many disciples. They appointed leaders for them in that place and committed them to the grace of God, teaching them that through many trials and tribulations, you must enter the kingdom. In other words, in their fundamental discipleship, suffering was normalized. You're either in a trial, coming out or going into one. And so, like, I don't think the Christian church that we have now is ready for the onslaught of suffering. And so I think, but I do think that God is going to, like, I'm not one of the people, oh, if the church don't do this, it's gonna go out of existence. The gates of hell won't prevail. So I'm not one of those guys. But I do believe that we have some cancerous problems that have to be dealt with in the season. But I do believe that God is, you know, those of us, we would like to believe, everybody wants to believe they're the remnant, right? But for those of us who believe we're the remnant, I do believe that that pruning, that part of that pruning is the suffering, part of that pruning is all of those different pieces. Because, you know, suffering is one of those mechanisms of spiritual formation. In our life. Yeah, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Quick question. So during the pandemic, I've had a lot of friends and I saw a lot of people go through this whole deconstruction phase, just deconstructing their faith. But in that, I've seen a lot of people, especially in the African American community, deconstruct their faith, start to question some things, and then find themselves in the arms of the Hebrew Israelites or Moors or a lot of these religions that give them some type of identity, you know. And so I will want you to speak to two things. One, why do you think that so many people are going through this so called deconstruction phase? And how can we, as Christian leaders, evangelists, apologists, help people to know the truth and fall and prevent them from falling in the hands of these false religions and cults?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, a lot running through my mind as you're saying that. So I think I'll pick two. So there are two entryways that I think into deconstruction. I think one fundamental entryway is disappointment. Right.

[Jackie Perry]

Hello.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, that's one major one. Whether you're disappointed that the church didn't deal with race like they should have or, you know, whatever. Right.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Or somebody you really, really looked up to and they were kind of like an anchor for you believing in the faith and they failed or whatever.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Then you're like questioning everything. But the other side is deconstruction is not many times theological, it's moral. It's really. I really want to smoke this weed. I really wanna smash, like. So you know what, man, I'm kind of not feeling like, you know, I.

[Preston Perry]

Think it's time to deconstruct.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. So most people that throw. 99.9% of the people that I could.

[Preston Perry]

Roll this blunt in peace, if I'm deconstructing.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Right. 99.9% of everybody I know that deconstructed it was fundamentally moral, which is the.

[Jackie Perry]

Parable of the Sower, I think, where it talks about how, you know, the, the cares of this world choke out the seed.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Absolutely.

[Jackie Perry]

Like, we don't talk about that enough.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Absolutely. We don't talk about that.

[Preston Perry]

But what would you say to the people who said, I went through a deconstruction phase? And it was, it was actually not because I wanted to do what I wanted to do, but I was really questioning the faith. And, you know, what I've seen and which is one of the things that I was telling a lot of my white followers online is that when I address these race issues, I'M not just addressing these race issues to pick on white people, but I have a large African American following who needs me to talk about these things. Because it is a matter of some people walking away from Christianity. If people don't see people like us standing up for the black boy or the black woman who feels not seen, other religions might feel seem more attractive. And so it is an apologetic for us in the African American community more than it is with our white brothers and sisters in the faith. And so I think sometimes they don't understand that. And so for the person who says, man, like, I really tried to, you know, to be Christian, but I felt like when I went in my neighborhood, I felt I felt more seen by the Hebrew Israelites. I felt more seen by the Nation of Islam. I felt more seen by, you know, these women who practice witchcraft on the corner telling me that, you know, I'm a black queen and I'm the universe now.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I would say. I would say not all deconstruction is bad, because I think deconstruction is fundamentally. I would define it as reevaluating whether or not you believe and evaluating where you are with that. Right. And I would say I don't underestimate the process of people going through a full deconstruction, walking away, going into that. Because I've seen cats go into Hebrew Israelism and come back when they was like, this is not even what I thought it was. And so I think that reevaluating your faith, I think even if a person grew up in a suburban youth ministry and they were around the faith and went to college, lost their mind, deconstructed, came back, you know, I think that deconstruction can be a good thing if it helps solidify you and your faith. But I do think that, again, to answer your question about even the identity question, I just think that we have to have an atmosphere in church where we welcome skepticism. I think you can't say, well, see, I don't question God now. Don't you? All I know is he too high to get over. He's too low to get under. Stuck in the middle, you know? You know, you know, I'm just like, nah, like Bishop Mike. Right, right, right. And so I'm just like. I'm like, there's a sense in which we have to, like, this generation, like. Like, y' all be asking some questions, like, and it's not like my generation did, too. But y'. All, Because y'. All, Y' all hit the Internet, so millennials and Gen Z is just. There's so much out there. Like, what's Anunnaki? Like, you got Dame Dash talking about Anunnaki and that dude he followed. Forgot the dude to be just saying stuff. I forgot what his name is. He's, like, popular, got millions of followers, and he follows him and does business with him. But people watch his videos. And I think that because. And this is the issue when you don't, well, disciple people or disciple people enough to work through their faith and understand it, what happens is when something foreign comes to their faith room, like, you know, where did Cain's wife come from? You know. You know, just those gaps in their faith, and you're not able to answer those questions. You know, why didn't. You know, why did the Bible. Why was the Bible translated so many times? And so all of those different questions that come up and what ends up happening is we have to say, be able to sit down, deal with those questions. And a friend of mine used to do what's called Doubt Night. He said, just bring all your doubt. He just had a thing I would love. I want to do that. Like, live. I want to do, like, when we start the podcast, do a Doubt Night and just have time where people just go ask questions, just go for your doubt. And, I mean, we may not answer every question, but at least we took a shot at saying, man, God's not scared of any question you got, fam. He's not scared of none of it.

[Preston Perry]

I like that.

[Jackie Perry]

Part of me is thinking about the whole idea of deconstruction and all the things, and thinking how, like, this is really a community project, you know, need good leaders. We need other Christians. But I think a common experience in Atlanta, I can't speak for other places, is that there's not a lot of good communities or people don't have the framework to know what a good community actually is. And so I guess, as a pastor, how are people even supposed to discern what a good church is? To be able to, like, yeah, you know, or how do. How do people. Yeah, I don't know what my question is.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, I think one of the things that is very important is before we ask what is a good church, we should ask the question, what makes a church a church? Right. So I always ask people that because some people say, well, we can meet in homes. I don't care. We can meet in the bar. We can meet in the. I don't care about that. What makes a church a church? Does it have preaching, teaching, worship, evangelism, elders Deacons, community, church discipline, baptism and communion. Does it have that right? So does it have those things? Because that's what. When we look at the Passover epistles first, second Timothy, Titus, that's what he said. I left you a crete in Titus 1:5 to set in order what remains, Right. And so that means that there is order to a church. So that's why I do believe in organized religion. I do. I do. I believe in. I'm religious because religious means holiness and piety and committed to God's standards.

[Preston Perry]

And God said his religion is pure.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Pure.

[Jackie Perry]

Hello.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Absolutely right. And so all that religion and relationship. Relationship is fluid. Like, you can't have a relationship with God without religion. So that's a whole nother discussion. And so. And so I would start there. And I think that. And I think people, God, you know, the Holy Spirit, the Bible says, will guide you into all truth. I believe that with the bottom of my heart. Because even when you were a young Christian, right? And you was in somewhere and you was. You was you listening to somebody preach, and you don't know enough of the word, but there's something in you that's like, something's bugged out about this spot.

[Jackie Perry]

It's a little weird.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. Because I remember I was. When I was in college and I started walking with the Lord, you know, I would share the gospel with the tree. I was just so on fire.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And I was at this church and the dude was going through 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, and he, you know, I believe in all the gifts, right? But he was saying, you know, Paul isn't saying that you can't speak in tongues publicly without interpretation. And then I'm like, I'm looking at the Bible. He starts. I don't even remember the rant that he was going on, but I remember that I said, nah, this is not true. Even though he was a pastor for years or whatever, but I knew that what he was saying was off. I believe that if you speak in tongues publicly, you gotta have an interpretation. Not everybody praying your prayer language. I know some people gonna get mad listening to this. Like, you just randomly speaking in tongues. And so the reason why I'm saying that is because I think that there's a sense in which God helps a babe. Even, like, even children, right? Children are discerning without wisdom at times. They'll. They'll see somebody and it's something they don't like about them, you know? You know, and so I think that finding a church is, first off, being able to Visit places that have those things that I just mentioned. But then as you visit those places that have those things and be in your word and start listening and discerning and as you listen and discern and connect with somebody that you believe is solid, biblical and faithful. If you're watching this podcast, Right.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Then you've, you've connected at least technologically with some people that you think are decently solid. And what have they been saying, characteristically that would say dag, I'm listening to them, I believe they're solid. That's not something that's here. And this is, and so you got, but this is the, this is the big issue that people gotta do. You have to have, you have to know what a close handed issue is and what an open handed issue is. Like you gotta be careful of making open handed issues. What do I mean by open handed? Things that are negotiable because church ain't gonna have everything you want and every church is not gonna have everything you want. But you gotta know what those non negotiables are. And some of those things are some of the things that I talked about there. But then you gotta choose what are your open handed issues that you feel like you really do need that's important to you, that you couldn't live without.

[Preston Perry]

So is this, is it, does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. Is it some things that people should.

[Jackie Perry]

Like, I want good worship.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Absolutely.

[Jackie Perry]

But I gotta keep an open hand. Hello?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Is there some, is there, is there some things that some Christians should like, some big no no's that they should look out for when trying to figure out a good church to like practical things.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Oh, very practical.

[Jackie Perry]

Because what's hard, Dr. Mason, is the popular churches are assumed to be the good churches because it's kind of like, well, if everybody's going here, then obviously I think we have this assumption that like bad churches are empty churches.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Because I think sometimes people can associate people flocking to something that God hand is on it.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

And so, and so would you talk about the things that we should look for in discerning what's a good church?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. I think Christ has to be centered. What does that look like? Yeah. The pastor can't be over celebrated. There's nothing wrong with appreciation because it's important, I think leadership. And the leadership has a plurality of leaders with what I call a first among equals. Right. And so that first among equals is the person that is the rudder for the ship. Right. The visionary, the one, you know, double honor Leads well, right, Like. Like Peter was in the church, the Jerusalem church, like Timothy was in Ephesus, like Titus was in the churches on Crete. Right. So you need that. I think they stay in the Bible and they go through what the Bible actually says. We was talking about somebody earlier who was Jesus, gives the interpretation of the verse, but they said something totally different, like paying attention. Like we learned context clues in the third grade. It's some stuff that you can literally. That you can literally just see without knowing Hebrew or Greek. Right?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Also, what's the community like? Like, what mechanisms do they provide to help people to connect with other people? And in those spaces, how do they connect? Is the word of God talked about? Is it? And is it a sense of. And this is some stuff pastors can't necessarily control. That's something where believers have to take responsibility for helping, being community developers. Right. And so I think the. Do people, do they have a space for believers to do life on life? Like at the end of the day, that's not talking about being all in your business. I don't want nobody in your business. You have to have space that's good for people to be. Listen, the most impactful discipleship I guarantee that you've had, I mean, there are levels of discipleship. You have air war, you have ground war. Air war is Sunday morning worship. You know, teaching conferences. All those things is air war. Right. But then you got the ground war. That's small groups, you know, one on one discipleship. You know, small, small groups of discipleship. All those different things are God's means of helping Christ and relationships with other believers. I think that, I think that you gotta have those things because if you let the production experience of Sunday morning be kind of like your, your, your. The pep rally for your Christian experience, you won't grow deep.

[Jackie Perry]

That's good.

[Preston Perry]

That's really good.

[Jackie Perry]

I'mma ask questions. Can I see the book? I'mma ask questions about the book, but I'm taking advantage of asking you everything. So you made a post on Instagram a couple of weeks ago about us lacking a kind of sacredness in the pulpit.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Can you talk more about that? Because I'm only judging from social media, but even. I'll speak for myself. Even the other day I was teaching at Glory and I can be a humorous person. Right. And I was just in a real good mood. Yes. And so I just kind of kept cracking jokes and I felt convicted. It felt like the Lord was like, pull back on the funny. Like there has to be A level of sobriety here.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

He was like, stop.

[Jackie Perry]

No, I felt it. And so I literally had to rein it in because I think levity is good and I think it's meaningful and necessary, but I also think it can be a distraction from the word. And so I can even see within myself how I need to treat the pulpit, even though I'm not a pastor, not more sacred. And so I guess speak to that tension we see with pastors and things.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. So one of the things I start with is how does God speak to me? Okay, so what does he use? He uses so much beautiful language in the Bible. He uses poetry. He uses narrative. He uses straight talk through letters. He even uses humor. He uses romance. He used satire. God, I believe that those are all communication tools right now. We can't story people to death. Yeah, we can't. Rhetorical language people to death. We can't. So I think that it has to be varying. I do think this is what it came from. I won't name specific things. No, I will name some specific things. I remember listening to a young man preaching, and I remember he dropped the ass bomb in the message. And then Dan, you know, D A M N. And I was like. I was like, whoa. I was like, what is this? And I do think that there's such a rejection of rhetorical black church preaching. I won't say rejection. People just view it in a particular way sometimes, particularly this generation, that the newer church plants and the newer leaders have so deformalized church. We've removed creeds. We don't really have liturgy anymore. Anything that like liturgy. The purpose of liturgy was to catechize people's understanding of the faith, where every part of the gathering was helping us remain connected to the vintage faith. Right. I think now I don't. I think that people are not just. Not necessarily concerned about the vintageness of the faith. I think it's evolved. I think the whole secret, sensitive movement kind of turned the church into a me centered disposition in preaching. And so what that's done is, is that has evolved the church into where it feels like I'm going to more of a comedy show talking to a preacher. And I'm having this type of worship experience that makes me feel this particular way, but I just feel like there's been a sacredness taken out of it because we wanted. And I think in some ways it was good because it was good in that it removed some of the obstacles that people had with coming to church. Like, I would go on the block and say, yo, Come to church Sunday, and they would be like, I need to get a suit. I need to bum, bum, bum. And I said, nah, I'm just like this. You can come. And so I think being very, very careful of letting our relatability lack honor and balance. And I've had to repent, like, when I've gone too far in stuff that I've said I could. Immediately, sometime immediately, I felt the Holy Spirit grab ahold of me in a terrible kind of way. I remember one time in a sermon, I said, let me stop. I said, I need to repent of what I just said. I said, I went too far. Wow, please forgive me. And then I just prayed and then went back preaching. And I see. Cause I can feel it when I'm not. When I'm being. Cause you know, in black church, when you getting a lot of amens and you start feeling it, I'm really preaching right now. I'm killing it right now. Let me, you know. And I'm, you know, and so I'm going. And then I'm like, God, like, don't forget. I will leave you behind up here, bro. I'll just. I'll just, you know. And so being able to do that is important for me.

[Preston Perry]

Let me ask you this, though, because I think a lot of the lack of reverence that we see in pulpits, we see primarily on social media now, we see a lot of different stuff out there. And do you think that some of it is a temptation to, quote, unquote, reach the world in the wrong way, to have this. Some type of relatability to the outside world, to draw people in, that we kind of sometimes go too far and making people feel like they can relate to the church. And would you speak to that? Because I can imagine some pastors may have that temptation to appeal to people in a way, to draw them?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I think people. I don't think a lot of pastors have been discipled in how to navigate the sacred desk. So I believe a lot of guys are undiscipled as believers and as pastors. And I think they have a gift that took them farther than their character can keep them. And not just in being anything else, but I think even in, like, if. Because if I'm gathering a crowd, there's nothing you're going to be able to tell me once I got the people. And so if you got somebody in there that has a smaller church than you saying, hey, young man, boom, boom, boom, boom. He said, well, I'm looking over there at you, fam. And you looking like you got 100 people over there. I'm looking at 2,500. What you, what you mean? What you gonna tell me? And so I do think that pastors have to have sages. I believe like, you know, you go, I believe this is me. This is something I just believe you go through stages as a believer, as a leader that you need to work through. Brother, big brother, uncle, spiritual father, sage. That's kind of like. And I think we need sages. I think we need sages more than ever right now. And spiritual fathers, people need spiritual fathering, spiritual mothering, and they need sages in their life that is able to call their coats on it. I think that's really fundamentally, there's just been a big generational disconnect because the former generation didn't necessarily all hand a baton over to the next generation. Well, when it came to church. And so the next generation felt like they had to start their own thing and it was separate from their thing and didn't necessarily connect the dots. And that's not everywhere, but there's a significant amount of that. And I would say particularly in church planting. Yeah. Because a lot of church plant organizations will plant people and let them lead without them having a spiritual father, a church home or nothing. They'll just, they'll just assess them and plant them, which is super unhealthy. I need.

[Jackie Perry]

What is the neo prosperity gospel?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, so the Neo prosperity gospel is the non overt prosperity gospel, which basically doesn't overtly says that everybody is going to be rich if you give, if you do this. The neo prosperity gospel is the new, the new purpose. It's the purpose gospel that we hear a lot. And so it builds your life. Instead of around money, it gets it on the back end. If you find your purpose, you'll be rich. So let me help you to find your purpose and then you can make money will come if you just find out your purpose. But I tell people there's a difference between purpose and assignment. So a lot of what we call purpose is really assignment Biblically. Our purpose is to make disciples, to preach the gospel to the many, to the invisible powers, you know, to go to jail, Samaria, to be the body of Christ, to use our gifts to serve one another. That's our macro purpose. Now you being a doctor is not your purpose. That's an assignment, you know, and so, and so we have to be, be very, very careful of that, of that, of the whole purpose gospel. Because I think that every if like everybody, and I don't think it's anything wrong with helping people to lock into where they belong based on gifts and talents and where they best fit. But your gift and your talent isn't your purpose. Your purpose is based on your God's decrees on earth for what the. And it's a unified purpose. It's not your personal purpose. It's our purpose together to make disciples. It's our purpose. That's purpose. Now you do poetry, you do poetry, you write. Writing isn't my purpose, it's my assignment. And we gotta know the difference between those. But the assignment is only assignment if it serves the larger purpose.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's good. I could be wrong, but it seems as if like this whole purpose driven preaching is fairly new compared to the prosperity gospel that we, that we knew before. And so this is a question for both of you guys, because I know you've been kind of on a little tangent.

[Jackie Perry]

Dig deep in prosperity gospel, knee deep.

[Preston Perry]

In studying this stuff. What does it come from? What does this purpose driven prosperity gospel kind of came from? And like, why is it so popular in our culture right now?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Why y' all think that is? Well, it was a book, psychology book written years ago called Search for Significance. I read it like in the early 90s when I was in college.

[Jackie Perry]

I saw that yesterday at the library.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, it's a good book. And so Carl Ellis, when he talks about the whole cult stuff, he says, listen people, it's three things, you know, significance, dignity and identity. That's fundamental human needs, you know, significance, you know, what's my purpose? You know, significance, dignity, who am I? I mean, you know, dignity, what's my value? And then identity, who am I? Those are the three fundamental questions every human being asks. The purpose driven thing connects it earthly mainly and using God to get that on earth for the person to find those three things out. So I find out these three things not to plug it into God's purpose and what he's called us to do as the body of Christ. But this is for me to be unleashed and in some way, shape or form, in an individual, individualistic way, this will somehow connect to God's purposes. And I think that, you know, the Bible says that he or she who isolates himself seeks his own desires, Proverbs 18:1. And so I do think that we, I think it started out with a hyper individualistic culture because we went from modern culture where it was, you know, scientific culture. Then we went to postmodernism, and then we then, you know, then we went to pluralism. And now we're in syncretism. Right. And so. So what do I mean by that? Every. Every. I mean, we're in a pluralistic society where there is. There is no wrong as long as it doesn't infringe upon my right. So. So if you. So. So, like, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody, you can believe and do what you want to do. Right. And so I do think that that plays a role into whatever culture's big subject, purpose statement is. There's going to be a spiritualized version of that in the church. Always. If you look at every big movement, like, every big movement that happens in the world. Right. There's always going to be a spiritualized version of it in the church that gets propagated to the church. Guarantee it. Wow. If you look at anything and name it and you'll find it. Every single time. Every single time. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah. That resonates with even the chapter on the prosperity gospel and how it talks about E.W. kenyon, who was a proponent of, like, not a proponent. Like, he had learned a lot about new thought, which was, like, this science that said, like, absolutely, what I think or what I say will be what my reality or whatever. But he, like, Christianized it. And so there's this secular, occultic idea that he then sanctifies, and then that becomes the word of faith movement, which therefore becomes prosperity gospel.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

So I think it's interesting, but now it's influenced. I hear. I listen to secular card podcasts, like, sound bites. I can't listen to two hours of that. But, like, I listen to sound bites and I hear them. I'm manifesting. I'm, you know, I'm speaking it to existence. Like, they got there from prosperity gospel. It's crazy.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, it's like a Christian. The secret.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, it's a new Christian era, right? About some things.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Are we. Are these things. Would this, like, be a part of what Jude talks about when he says contend for the faith? Is this a contending issue?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Which part?

[Jackie Perry]

The prosperity gospel. Because I can see contending for Hebrew against Hebrew Israel now.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You know, it's one of the craziest verses. I think I sent it to you. The craziest verses that I read was in Second Peter. It, like, if you go through Second Peter, like, if you. Like, I'm just telling y', all, I'm thinking about doing a series on preaching all of the chapters in the New Testament on false teachers. Like, can you do it?

[Jackie Perry]

Can you do it? Can we vote? Can we vote?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Let's go. Let's go.

[Preston Perry]

That'd be really good.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Listen and listen. Second Peter is scary.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Second Peter two. If you read it in one of the ones that it says they're trained in teaching greed. Trained in teaching, like so literally, their discipleship mechanism is teaching preachers how to get money from people. That's how you know somebody's a false teacher.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Wow. Trained. I went to this one church, right? So y' all story, prosperity story. So God, he cut an apple open, he said, amen. This seed here, this apple came into existence because of this seed. But unless this seed was planted, this apple became a tree, and this tree manifested a multiplicity of apples. I sense an apple seed anointing in this place. I'm going to start a thousand dollar line right here. And God has anointed this seed that at every person that holds this seed, you pass it back to the person and you give it, and that anointing will be passed to you and your.

[Preston Perry]

He sound like James Earl Ray when.

[Jackie Perry]

He sound like a liar.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Listen. And them folk was what you call Kokosh, lined up down the thousand dollar line. Thousand doll. Yeah, man. And so, and so, and so I'm saying that to say like, they're trained, but they trained. I remember I was at one church and I preached and the Lord really blessed. I closed. I don't usually close a lot, but I close the dishwasher. Lord blessed. The pastor said, you can raise an offering now. You can. I was like, nah, I'm not. I don't. I've never got up. Okay, now y', all, like, after I preach to use the emotion that's in the room.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Not for repentance, but for resources. So anyway, now I believe in people giving. I believe in generosity. So don't hear me saying I don't believe in people building wealth. Don't hear me saying I don't believe, you know, in people. You know, finances. The Bible talks a lot about it, but I'm talking about financial centered theology. That's what we're talking about. Wow.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, you stepped on a lot of toes with that one.

[Jackie Perry]

Maybe not.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, maybe not.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Maybe not.

[Jackie Perry]

Maybe not because. Because this is. This is what I'm struggling with. This is unprocessed. I feel like we talked about the prosperity gospel in extremes for so long that the subtle versions of it aren't actually discernible. You know, like, I think people are teaching greed just in a different way. Like, I think, when I. When I think about how the teaching now is such A it has such a self centered hermeneutic. Is that not greed? Is that not reinforcing a lack of self denial?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

This is no shade. Okay, I'm gonna say something. Y' all cut this if y' all want to. Right?

[Preston Perry]

We not. Go ahead, go ahead.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Like if, if the church pays for me a limousine service and I got all this security and then the door opens and me and my wife get out and the first thing you see is our shoes and they Balenciaga. And I know I got on some hype shoes now, so I'm not against, but I'm saying I get out and I'm going like this and I'll take off my glasses and look around and going to church and every, it's like a red carpet and I'm high fiving everybody and you know, and everybody's, you know, I'm doing the peace sign and then, you know, you saw my belt. Now my wife puts her pocketbook down and it's Birkin, you know, and like the flow is almost. What are you saying?

[Jackie Perry]

Right?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Like what, what, what do. I'm just listening. I'm like, I'm like, I'm, I'm listening. Do what you want to do. But I'm like, what are you trying to communicate to me? That's the neo prosperity gospel. Yes. Like, I think like I saw, I'm just say this. I saw one pastor just put online him buying a luxury car. Like, I'm like, this is my come up. And I'm like, like, what are we doing? Like, like what are we like, I'm not saying you can't drive a brand's dog. What, Like, I hope. What are we doing?

[Preston Perry]

It's more, it's, it's more than one way to communicate.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Because what you're doing is you're communicating because I'm the pass. I've, I, I, I, I'm spiritually mature. This is what I've, I. My faithfulness. I've obtained all of these things. And so this is why a lot of times people flock to some churches and they want to be that. That they're seeking to be that they're seeking for status, fame, money. And these things aren't bad within themselves. But when it, when it becomes the center of.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Because I think even ministry people buy what you want to buy. But I'm just saying I, I just don't. I just. We're branding something though.

[Preston Perry]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Cause it makes us feel good. Right. Because me and Preston, we are very much in the position where we could flex, right? And people could.

[Preston Perry]

Sometimes I be flex. I'll be like, this is thrift store. And I just know how to dress. Y' all don't know how to put an outfit together.

[Jackie Perry]

But I have to be honest with my. I remember there was a time where I was about to teach, and it was probably seven, 8,000 people, and I had to tell God, I want glory. I want it. I'm insecure. I feel insufficient. I was a kid that nobody liked. I was a nerd. I wasn't cool. I wasn't. But here, now I have the opportunity to get what I never got. And so let me confess that so that the Lord would fill me so that I serve his people and not instead of having his people serve me, you're gonna. But so I just even wonder if we're having those internal conversations with God out loud so that we could be pure when it comes to our ministry.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. So you got two extremes. So you got.

[Preston Perry]

I was gonna say something.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I'm not gonna say it. You got the pastor worship situation. But then in those more solid spaces, you have people who have church hurt, been church hurt, or they so want to demolish the pastor. There's no value there. And I think that that's what you'll find on. That's, like the quiet extreme that's going on now. I'm so anti prosperity that, like, I know so many underpaid pastors, like, so many. I know pastors that the church, they struggling. Get them 401k, you know, or 403b rather, you know, and so there's that extreme. But to speak to this, though, to speak to the other side, I just think that I don't. I think that we're. And this. I just think we're in a society where the. I think we love the world, and I think that. I just think we love the world. And I think that if you say something, you're judging, like, instead of just like, correction, now we're so soft as some baby Pampers that we can't receive a challenge. Why you worried about what I got on? Why you? Like, like. No, because you can't. Like, in other words, like, what, What. What are we required of anything? Of us? You know what I'm saying? And so for me, I just think, you know, promiscuous dressing online, you know that too. It just. The whole. I don't know, man. I just. I really just want to see a branded Christian faith that's biblical, that just takes the faith seriously and repents, like, saying Stuff like I want glory, you know, So I don't know. Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

You actually ended your book talking about rebranding the church.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

What do you mean by that?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, so I did a series on this. And so basically when I talk about rebranding, the church is not recreating, but basically going back to who we originally are. You know, a lot of people read Ephesians 3, 20, 21. It says they read the first part, they like that because that's the part we get the blessing off of right now. Unto him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all. You ask or think according to the power that is at work within you. But the last part says to him, be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus. And that word I did glory doxa in ecclesia in my mind is his tabernacling among his people, the Shekinah glory, presence of God in the church, properly shining forth from the church. I want to see us just shine. Well, that's good. Like, I just want to see us shine. Well, I want to see us repent. Well, I want to see us to date. Well, I want to see us if you drink, not over drink. Right. I want to see us not getting smoke saying I smoke weed as cb. Like we're using it for something we're not using it for. You know, I want to see us look nice, but don't have to be promiscuous looking. I want to see us. I just want to see us rep his reign. Well, that's good. I just. And so when I talk about apologetics and talk about urban apologetics, that's the big thing I'm really talking about talking about man. Not just having answers with our lips, but also having answers with our life. That's good because again, we're not talking about being perfect, we're talking about being in process. And so at least be in process. That's good, you know, not being defiant. I was preaching, we're going through Hebrews right now, and he was talking about the defiant believer. The person who defiantly resist the Lord is one who tramples the blood of Christ underfoot, you know, and basically it means to treat him like the priest treated the person lying on the road and when he walked around him because he didn't want to get unclean. Because now you're treating Christ's body like he's an unclean vessel versus a vessel that cleanses when we live defiantly against the Lord. So and so that's my passion on every single level is to see the body of Christ. Be the body of Christ.

[Preston Perry]

That's good. What would you. To end? What would you want, people? The main thing, or if you want to name a couple of things, to walk away from reading this book.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. Be passionate about being responsible for the Christian faith. Own it. That's good for me. That's really what apologetics is about. Owning the faith. And when I say own the faith, take it seriously. Take it. Look at it as your craft. You know, I like Kobe Bryant. You know, I got a couple of pair of Kobe sneakers. You know, the whole Mamba mentality. And when you look at, you know, Kobe Bryant, everybody loves him because of how serious he took his craft.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You know, and I just want to see. I want to see us to be some. I love to see people just be Jesus geeks.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Just a nerd of the Savior, you know, And I just would love us to be in that place where, you know, Paul says in one of his doxologies, he says, now unto him who is able to establish you according to the preaching of my gospel. And he says, I want you to be established in the gospel. Well. And that we go from milk to meat and demand righteousness, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Yeah. All right.

[Preston Perry]

Well, y' all need to go out and get this book.

[Jackie Perry]

Cut my finger off.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Sorry.

[Preston Perry]

All right, take your finger. Urban Apologetics by Dr. Eric Mason. Cults and Cultural Ideologies. Man, it's a great book.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I haven't read it yet, but I.

[Preston Perry]

Know it's a great book. Cause I know him. Thank you, brother man. I love you, man.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Love you all.

[Preston Perry]

A big brother in the faith to me. Love you, love you, love you, love.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You, love you, love you.

[Jackie Perry]

With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing B. McBride. Editing by Xavier Fairley, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell. Artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. If you'd like to support the Perrys, you can visit the link in the show notes. This is with the Perrys. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.