Deep Dive: The Gospel, Evangelism & Making Disciples

Summary

Podcast Summary: With The Perrys — “Deep Dive: The Gospel, Evangelism & Making Disciples” (August 10, 2026)

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Episode Overview

This episode of With The Perrys is a rich and practical conversation on the gospel, evangelism, and making disciples. Preston Perry, Jackie Hill Perry, Brian Perry, and special guests dive deep into fundamental Christian truths: what the gospel actually is, how to effectively share it, how discipleship should look, and how every believer is called and equipped in unique ways. With their signature blend of honesty, humor, and biblical insight, they challenge common misconceptions, share personal stories from their own journeys, and offer nuanced guidance on sensitive issues like calling out sin, family evangelism, and healthy leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Gospel (01:16–08:39)

• Foundation First: Before discussing evangelism or discipleship, the Perrys emphasize returning to a clear, biblical understanding of the gospel.
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “I think we hear the gospel presentation all the time, but you can never hear it enough, right?” [01:16]
• Not Just Bad News: The gospel begins with God’s good creation and intention, not just humanity’s fall.
  • Brian Perry: “It is wiser not to begin the gospel with, ‘you are sinful and you are bad,’ but to begin with, ‘God is good.’” [05:05]
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “If the Bible message doesn’t start off that way, why are you starting off that way?” [05:31]
• The Fall Explained: Humanity became “so unlike” God because of sin, hence the need for rescue and restoration through Christ.
• Inheritance of Sin: Romans 5 used to frame why all inherit sin from Adam but are also personally accountable.
  • Brian Perry: “If Adam sinned, why am I the one judged? It’s like, but you’re sinning too.” [11:17]

2. God’s Promise of Redemption (13:34–17:16)

• Genesis 3 and the Proto-Gospel: The ‘bruise your head’ promise to the serpent foreshadows Christ’s defeat of Satan.
  • Brian Perry: “If I bruise your head, I break you. I render you lifeless... No offspring from the woman was able to defeat Satan because they were born under a dominion of sin... except Jesus.” [14:40–15:49]
• A Complete Gospel: It’s not just the cross, but the resurrection, ascension, and ongoing empowerment of believers.
  • Brian Perry: “The gospel doesn’t just end with the cross. The gospel also has a resurrection attached because it means nothing if Jesus just dies, right?” [17:16]

3. The Gospel and Personal Identity (18:23–22:35)

• Internalizing the Gospel: True gospel-centered ministry flows from being defined by the message yourself.
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “If the gospel is not a part of your daily meditation... then it’s not gonna show up in your ministry.” [19:16]
• Power for Living: Meditating on the gospel provides the ongoing power to walk in holiness and resist sin.
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “Who I am in Christ is a position and maybe I’m struggling in my walk because I have not meditated and reminded myself of who I’m in and who has the power.” [21:35]

4. Grace & Truth: Addressing Sin in Evangelism (23:34–37:12)

• Grace and Truth in Balance: Sin must be addressed, but with gentleness, patience, and respect.
  • Brian Perry: “Preaching against sin humbles us under the mighty hand of God so that we can now see that we actually do need Jesus.” [27:10]
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “A difference between beating somebody over the head with their sin and showing them...you fail from His perfection and these are all the problematic ways in which is keeping you from Him.” [23:58]
• Wisdom in Correction: Nuance in how, when, and to whom sin is addressed—differentiating between believers and non-believers.
  • Brian Perry: “The way I address [sin] as a sister, as a family member… is different than how I address a person that's an unbeliever.” [31:33]
• Gentleness and Respect: Referencing 2 Timothy 2 and 1 Peter 3, the importance of being “kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.” [32:50]
• Method vs. Message: Authenticity and love matter more than having a cookie-cutter method.
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “People care. They don’t care what you know until they know that you care.” [35:08]

5. Evangelism & Temperament: God Uses Who You Are (37:51–44:31)

• You Don’t Have to Copy Others: God works through individual personalities and circumstances.
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “It’s not about being like the evangelist that you see, but it’s about being ready.” [47:20]
  • Brian Perry: “I just carried a lot of anxiety...because I thought that to be faithful, I had to be like other people.” [42:06]
• Examples in Practice: Stories of Preston boldly approaching strangers vs. Jackie’s quieter, situational style highlight this diversity.
• Obedience Over Style: The key is being ready and willing, not conforming to others’ strategies.

6. Adapting Evangelism to People’s Stories (47:20–53:09)

• Tailoring Approach: Sharing the gospel demands discernment and listening to each person’s unique backstory.
  • Preston Perry: “As I was talking to her, I felt like the Lord was saying...she just hate what she knows. And so now I have to find a different vehicle to get to the Gospel.” [50:00]
• Ask Questions to Hear Their “Cry”: Effective entry points often come from understanding people’s intellectual, emotional, or cultural barriers.
  • Melody Fabian: “If we find our identity in the information we know and not the God we know, then we’ll treat people like projects and not image bearers.” [47:37]

7. Boldness with Love & Honoring Christ (53:09–59:41)

• Bold but Not Brash: True boldness is Spirit-empowered and always clothed in respect and love.
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “Boldness without the Spirit just makes us fools. Boldness without the Spirit makes us insensitive.” [53:14]
• Defending with Gentleness: 1 Peter 3:15 cited repeatedly: "Always be prepared to make a defense...but do it with gentleness and respect."
  • Melody Fabian: “This defense part is literally sandwiched with a heart that honors the Lord and then...goes back to conduct.” [58:27]
• Don’t Give Truth in a Garbage Bag: Delivery matters as much as message.
  • Melody Fabian: “If you give the truth in a garbage bag, they didn’t reject the truth—they rejected the way you gave it.” [54:11]

8. Family, Fear, and Slow-Cooked Discipleship (59:41–64:42)

• Evangelizing Family Is Harder: More fear, more attachment, and harder to have “bold” moments with those who know your past.
  • Melody Fabian: “It’s nothing wrong with having cowardly moments at times. Just don’t die that way.” [61:04]
• Slow Cook Approach: Sometimes the best witness among family is simply living—waiting for “natural conversations” to pop up as life happens.
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “If you live a life worthy of the gospel, natural conversations will pop up.” [62:34]
• Real Consistency Over Time: When hardship comes, people remember those who have lived authentically.

9. Discipleship: Real Life, Real People, Real Time (64:42–85:01)

• The Power of Discipleship: The depth and normality the Perrys exhibit are attributed to years of intentional, humble, often unglamorous discipleship.
  • Pastor or Mentor: “We look for the finished product... We don’t see the potential in the midst of the shadows.” [67:46]
  • Jackie Hill Perry: “The fruit of your discipleship in our life has really... rooted me. I feel rooted.” [84:49]
• Jesus’ Making Disciples Command: Matthew 28 interpreted as an invitation to “make" disciples—not just find, but invest and shape lives over time.
• Pickle Analogy for Baptism: “You baptize a cucumber in vinegar and it becomes a pickle: it’s changed, it doesn’t taste like a cucumber anymore.” [74:54]
• Discipleship Is Slow and Local: The platform must flow from local, lived-out ministry—not the other way around.
• Individualized Approach: Like parenting, discipleship needs to adapt to each person's growth state and needs.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It is wiser not to begin the gospel with, ‘you are sinful and you are bad,’ but to begin with, ‘God is good.’” — Brian Perry [05:05]
• “If you give the truth in a garbage bag, they didn’t reject the truth—they rejected the way you gave it.” — Melody Fabian [54:11]
• “The fruit of your discipleship in our life has really...rooted me. I feel rooted.” — Jackie Hill Perry [84:49]
• “If we find our identity in the information we know and not the God we know, we’ll treat people like projects and not image bearers.” — Melody Fabian [47:37]
• “Obedience is the real measure of evangelism—not imitation.” — Jackie Hill Perry [42:06]
• “Boldness without the Spirit makes us fools.” — Jackie Hill Perry [53:14]
• “Preaching against sin humbles us under the mighty hand of God so that we can now see that we actually do need Jesus.” — Brian Perry [27:10]

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Timestamps of Crucial Segments

• Gospel Clarity & Definition: [01:16–05:31]
• Inheriting Sin & Romans 5: [09:37–11:29]
• Sin, Judgment & the Garden: [13:34–17:16]
• Gospel & Christian Identity: [18:23–22:35]
• Addressing Sin with Wisdom: [23:34–37:12]
• Different Styles of Evangelism: [37:51–44:31]
• Adapting to Individuals in Evangelism: [47:20–53:09]
• Family Evangelism Challenges: [59:41–64:42]
• Discipleship Principles & Practices: [64:42–85:01]
• Pickle Baptism Illustration: [74:54–76:06]

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Start with God’s goodness, not just human sinfulness, when sharing the gospel.
• Embrace both grace and truth: address sin, but always act with wisdom, patience, and gentleness.
• God uses diverse personalities and temperaments—obedience, not mimicry, is true faithfulness.
• You don’t need a platform or specific gifting to evangelize; you just need to be open and ready.
• Method matters—how you present the truth is often as important as what you say.
• Discipleship is slow, local, individual, and driven by love, not flashy results.
• Consistency and authentic living are deeply powerful, especially in family contexts.
• Humble mentorship and community leadership are vital for grounded, long-term growth.

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This episode is a practical, heartfelt roadmap for Christians passionate about sharing their faith and making discipleship a real, sustainable part of their lives—no matter their personality, gifting, or sphere of influence.

Transcript

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[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, for sure. Before we even talk about that, I mean, I think it's important for us to lay a foundation of what is the gospel. I think we hear the gospel presentation all the time, but you can never hear it enough, right?

[Brian Perry]

When I used to work at this nonprofit in Chicago, I was so my job was to interview and manage and lead a bunch of volunteers. And the volunteers were mentors to inner city youth or whatever. Inner city youth. I don't even like that term because it, it just implies a lot of things. But anyway, I, I had added to the interview process because they didn't have this. But I added to the interview process the question what is the gospel? It was astounding to me how many volunteers who came, who were Christians, who I would ask, what is the gospel? And they could not answer that question. One girl in particular, I said, what is the gospel? And she was like, well, I think, I think it's safe to say that the gospel is like the book of Matthew and Mark and Luke and John. I was like, those are the gospels, but what is the gospel that they contain, right? And she couldn't answer the question. And so I think the gospel not. I think the gospel is the message of salvation and what Christ has done for us. Good news, all the things. Now, how does the gospel begin though?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because I think that's a good question.

[Brian Perry]

We have a habit of either going Straight to good news, but also straight to bad news. But the Bible doesn't actually begin with bad news.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, it doesn't. Yeah, and I'm glad you said that, because the gospel story is essentially about the. It's the story of God. Right. It starts off with a good God creating His creation and calling it good. I think that's how the gospel starts off. And so I think before we think about the fall of man. Right. Cause I think a lot of times people, the gospel starts off that we fail from grace, and you know what I mean? And it's like. No, it actually starts off with, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was our form and void and the darkness. You know, it starts off with this creator, us. And so God created mankind for. For his glory, for his purpose. And. And then after that, that's when the, you know, the news kind of gets bad. Well, not kind of get bad. It gets bad when. When. When we sinned against God regarding causing

[Brian Perry]

horrific, tragic, scary, horrible, insidious, diabolical. Okay, anymore discouraging, Sinful, unrighteous. All right, licentious.

[Melody Fabian]

Licentious.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You so petty.

[Brian Perry]

Go ahead.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. When we sin against God in the garden, I mean, causing God in His righteousness to judge the world and judge all, unrighteousness, you know, that's when it. That's when it gets bad. We fail from his grace. We fell from his perfection. But because he is a holy and a right righteous judge, the good news is that he is also a loving God. And so he didn't judge the world without first promising to save. And he did so by sending His Son into the world who knew no sin to become sin, so that we can become the righteousness of God.

[Brian Perry]

I want to slow down a bit, though, because you just preached the gospel because I think it can be a habit again to go to preach the fall first. And I get it. It's just like, you know why you need the good news? You know why you need Jesus? Because you sinned against God.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Brian Perry]

But sin actually only makes sense up against some kind of communication or instruction about the nature of God.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right, Right.

[Brian Perry]

And so it is. It is. It is wiser not to begin the gospel with, you are sinful and you are bad, but to begin with, God is good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

Because you only understand sin when you understand righteousness and holiness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right.

[Brian Perry]

Is that you fail from a sin standard that God has set in himself. He's good, he's righteous. And Adam and Eve were too. But they wanted to listen to the devil.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I can understand.

[Brian Perry]

Here we go. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I can understand the pressure that some, sometimes people have because we live especially for people who just want to stay true to the gospel and who don't want to be so, like grace heavy where they don't give truth. It's like, I think sometimes it can be a overemphasis on the fall because so many people lack truth. And so I think the gospel is a beautiful balance of both grace and truth. And so I think we, we won't. We want so desperately for people to understand you are a sinner, you this, you're falling. But it's just like, no, if the Bible message doesn't start off that way, why are you starting off that way?

[Brian Perry]

It undermines God's intentions, though, you know what I'm saying? Because it's really just bad anthropology. It's like we inherited sin, but we were not created to be sinful.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right, right. Yeah, absolutely.

[Brian Perry]

And so, so what? So what? Like the whole idea of even being born again and putting on a new nature is that God wants to redeem and restore his original intention for us.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Absolutely.

[Brian Perry]

Which is for us to mirror and image him.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But as, even as, you know, as an evangelist and given the gospel, I used to go to like very atheistic environments or whatever.

[Brian Perry]

Atheistic. Come on here.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I like that you so cr. I saw the power in, you know, letting people, helping people understand how they were originally created, how we as a, as a, as a creation was originally created.

[Brian Perry]

How was it helpful?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It was very helpful because I think a lot of times when somebody walk up to a person that's an atheist or agnostic or somebody who's just really cool on God and they understand that I'm a Christian, I kind of can see their eyes and their postures, like, okay, you about to preach at me. You about to tell me how sinful I am. And so one, it shocks them that instead of coming for their sin right away, I tell them, no, that you were created with a purpose, that I don't know you, but I know why you were created.

[Brian Perry]

That's good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You were created for glory. You were created by God who has you in mind. You were created, you know, with a purpose. And because of sin, a lot of us don't know that purpose. But God and his righteousness came to the world to dwell amongst his own creation, to restore us back to our original state. And so I think having a framework of how the Bible starts helps us even in how we evangelize the world. It's like No, a lot of times we can focus on sin and we can miss the fact that God sent his son to restore us back to what we once were. Does that make sense? And so I've just found it in my personal opinion, to be powerful when people be like, oh no, like, this is the reason why, you know, the world is messed up. This is the reason why, you know, my father rejected me. This is the reason why the church rejected me. Because, you know, we live in a fallen world, but God wants to restore not only me, but all of mankind.

[Brian Perry]

When you say that, what do you mean?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, we were, we were originally perfect. We were originally, you know, not perfect. Our first parents, our first parents, you know, you know, Adam and Eve. And we were created to mirror into image God. And I think what happened in the, in the fall, in the Garden of Eden, we, we felt, we became so unlike him because of our sin. And so when it says that every man born after Adam will, will, will be born inheriting this particular sin, we will, we were, we were born with this, this propensity to, to love the things that God hates and to hate the thing that God loves. And so I think that's what, I think that's what fallen is to have a fallen nature. We like the, the so unlike him, which is the reason why Jesus had to come to, to be the propitiation for our sins. And so I, I think that's what, in a nutshell, what, you know, being fallen, fallen is. What would you say I wanted?

[Brian Perry]

Yeah, we, we fell from a standard because I think Romans is top tier when it comes to understanding the gospel and just kind of even the storyline of humanity for sure. Because some people will often, I think it can be confusing to even think about how like, yeah, Adam sinned. Why is it my fault? Right? Like why, why did I have to be considered sinful when he's the one who did it? But scripture, I think Romans 5 kind of helps us frame this. Romans 5:12 says, Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sinned, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned, for sin indeed was in the world before the law. Dah dah dah, verse 14. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one to come. It's this sense in which there's this theological term for it. I don't remember what it's called. It doesn't even matter. But it's like if he was our first parent. Right. Then in the same way that you inherit traits and, you know, ways of being from your father and his father and his father in the same way, like he was the first human being. So he set the pattern for what the rest of humanity would be like. And so because we come in his lineage, we also inherit his sin. That's cool. But we also have this, like, self righteousness about us where it's like, if Adam sinned, why am I the one judged? It's like, but you're sinning too.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, right.

[Brian Perry]

Like, you. You. You still choose to sin, and so you still are very much accountable for what you have chosen to do, even if you didn't sin in the same way that Adam did.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, for sure.

[Brian Perry]

Does that make sense?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It makes a lot of sense. And I think that's. I think, you know, instead of us focusing on Adam, I think it should really make us focus on. On God, because God in his goodness, right away, right away planned a way of escape for us.

[Brian Perry]

You want me to read it?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Go ahead and read it.

[Brian Perry]

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[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's good.

[Brian Perry]

Instead of going to God to save us from God, which is the gospel. So in Genesis 3, God, he gives curses to Adam, to Eve, and to the serpent. And to the serpent he says, verse 15, chapter 3. I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. Listen, listen. You listening?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm listening.

[Brian Perry]

He pronoun shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. I'll read it again. I will put enmity.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Why are you reading like the Hebrew Israelites read?

[Brian Perry]

That's what you're gonna say. I will put enmity between you and the woman. This is God talking to Satan. And between your offspring and her offspring, he shall bruise your head. And you. He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. I think this ESV is not really getting at what God is saying because he says that the. Technically, that the offspring that will come from this woman will not just merely bruise in a way where, like, I injure you, but if I bruise your head, I break you. I render you lifeless, ineffective, inefficient. Right? And no offspring from the woman was able to defeat Satan because they were just as. Not just as sinful, but they were born under a dominion of sinfulness and humanity that didn't allow them to actually have the moral power to defeat Satan. Because why. Everybody was born in sin except Jesus. So Jesus comes, and we already know that he is obviously the. The consummate. I don't think consummation is a good word. We know that he's like the promised seed when you get to stuff like Luke 4.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

Because Jesus, he goes into the wilderness. Who. Who show up?

[Pastor or Mentor]

The devil.

[Brian Perry]

The devil. And he tempts him with the same stuff. He came to Eve and was like, hey, don't that look good for food, girl? What? He go to Jesus and say, hey, I know you hungry? Yeah, turn on stones into bread. He trying to get Jesus to sin against God with the stomach, but he defeats that and he defeats the whole, like, go up on the mountain and throw yourself down. And he defeats the other stuff. And so now, like, Jesus's victory over sin his entire life proves that he was the one who had come to crush the serpent's head.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, that's really good. That's really good.

[Brian Perry]

I do want to add some clarity to the fullness of the gospel, which is God created us good or created human. He created us with the intention to be good in the same way that he created Adam and Eve. They fell from that standard, sinned against God, and therefore God was required to judge them because he's just right. And then we, we are born in sin and shaped in iniquity. So we inherited that stand same propensity and desire to love and want everything other than God. And so the problem is we can't work ourselves into God's righteousness. We can't earn it. There's nothing we can do. And so God in his grace, sent Jesus to live the life that we couldn't live and die the death that we deserved. But the gospel doesn't just end with the cross.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

The gospel also has a resurrection attached because it means nothing if Jesus just dies, right? If he just dies, we're still hopeless. If there is no resurrection, we still don't have life. And so the fact that he rose from the dead confirms that the Lord 1 accepted his death as an atonement, as a sacrifice for our sins. But it also shows that he has the power over death. And so when he then says, come to me, all who are heavy laden and of burden, I'll get your rest, it's like, no, in him I can have freedom from sin. In him I can conquer death. In him I can bruise the head of the serpent. Right? But not only that, he also promises his spirit to fill us so that we can walk, walk righteously. And so I think that's a fuller picture of the gospel. Now, how you engage the culture with that, I think one, the gospel has to. The gospel really has to be something. How do I say? Has to define you? You know, like, I don't think you can engage culture with the gospel if the gospel isn't a part of your own identity.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Explain that. Explain what you mean.

[Brian Perry]

So really practical example, when I started to be discipled, before being discipled, I was probably I was 19, new to Jesus, and I went to a church. I've said this before, that really esteemed gifts a whole lot. And so because I'm gifted, they esteem me, gave me all this honor, all these things. But they weren't discipling me. They weren't showing me how to read scripture. They weren't showing me how to like, walk worthy of the calling to which I had been called. And I was struggling just in my mind and my heart with sin and immaturity and lack of wisdom. And Santoria, when she started to disciple me, I came to her to tell her about how I was struggling with this particular lust issue. And she was like, jackie, what you need to do is you need to meditate on the gospel. I'm like, what? Because again, I come from a context where I'm thinking she's gonna tell me to fast, to tarry, to go get some hands laid on me, which is helpful. But for her to say, meditate on the gosp, that didn't seem like power. Yeah, that didn't seem good enough. And I'm like, why would I do that? And she was like, because this is what she said. She said the gospel didn't just save you, the gospel also keeps you. You have to continually remind yourself what Jesus accomplished on the cross for your sin. And there is where your power is. And so that's what I mean by it has to define you. Like, if the gospel is not a part of your daily meditation, if the gospel is not a part of how you do life and why you do life, then it's not gonna show up in your ministry. It's just not. What's gonna show up in your ministry is works. What's gonna show up in your ministry is legalism. What's gonna show up in your ministry is even the other end of that, which is licentiousness, low key, where it's like, God loves us, so, you know, we could just kind of do whatever we wanna do. The gospel centers you where it's like, no, I've been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. There is grace, but there's also a response to what Christ has done, which is holiness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's good. That's good. Because I think what I hear you saying I had to fight with early on in my Christian walk is I think a lot of times some church coaches try to push us to how to obtain a particular power, but it really is about reminding yourself of who has the power.

[Preston Perry]

Come on.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And who you are in. Right? Because that's what's going to sustain us. Because a lot of times we just lose sight of Jesus, that He came and defeated all sin, that he was the propitiation for our sins. Which means propitiation. Propitiation means the process in which God's wrath has been removed from us. Right? And so like because of our sin and rebellion against God, God's wrath was upon us. And so it isn't that God's God stopped being loving when we sinned. He's always loving. Just like the sun is always consistent, right? But if we go outside and all we see is utter darkness, it isn't that the sun isn't shining. The sun is consistent. It's always shining. It's just the earth has to rotate, causing the sun to shine on us. And so Jesus being the propit. Propitiation for our sins.

[Brian Perry]

I never heard you do that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Maybe it's the Lord, but Jesus.

[Brian Perry]

You just made that up.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, well, I thought.

[Brian Perry]

I'm cutting into it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I thought about it before, but. Yeah, but that's what propitiation is. It's literally like Jesus being the propitiation for our sins is a process in which Jesus came, took the full wrath of God in exchange, gave us his righteousness and took our unrighteousness. And now God's consistent and holy love is being able to be shifted upon us, taking us out of darkness and bringing us into his marvel, this light. And so like I think when we meditate on the fact that like, no, who I am in Christ is a position and maybe I'm struggling in my walk because I have not meditated and reminded myself of who I'm in and who has the power, right? And all power is in the right hand of Jesus. And so I think meditating on the gospel gives us the confidence to walk righteous and holy before God.

[Preston Perry]

You know those tiny back to school emergencies that somehow become your problem? That's why I love Uber Eats. You can order school supplies, snacks and lunchbox essentials for $5 or less. So when your kid casually drops I don't like peanut butter anymore or I need five green highlighters for a project due tomorrow, Uber Eats has you covered. Get everything you need for back to school today from your favorite brands like Aldi and Staples on Uber eats. Order now ends 97. $5 a or less before taxes and fees. Select items only. Availability varies. See app for details.

[Olivia from Ollie]

Hey friends. Olivia from Ollie. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Ollie comes in. Start your mornings off right with multis made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut supporting probiotics and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement. For example, stock up on ollie.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Brian Perry]

We left off by saying that in engaging and discipling and giving the great commission in the gospel, sin has to be addressed.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, for sure.

[Brian Perry]

How do I say this? Do we. In what way do we do a disservice to the people we minister to if we do not talk about sin?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, I think because in the first episode we talked about laying the foundation of what the gospel is and not starting with sin, but starting with the glory of God and how God created us in his image and his likeness and all of that. But I do think that, that there has to come a time where people sin is addressed because the Bible addresses people's sin. And so I think it's, I think it's a difference between beating somebody over the head with their sin and showing them no, the God who created you, the God of the universe, you fail from his perfection. And these are all the problematic ways in which is keeping you from him. Because I think, not think I know what sin does, is it separates us from the Lord. And so I do think that if we do it with grace and truth, letting people know, like man, this is the reason why you are separated from God. Because this jealousy in your heart, like God wants to nip it in the bud. This, this anger in your heart is preventing you from seeing the glory of God. This, this, this covetous in your heart, right. This idolatry in your heart. And a lot of times we just become idols of so many things in the world. And we realize why it's a disconnect, why we haven't felt close to the Lord in months. It's because it's the sin in our life. It's preventing us from being close.

[Brian Perry]

We, we, we have to address that because that's the reality of the human condition.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

Is that our heart hearts are wicked and sinful and depraved. And because of it, we make up things about ourselves, we make up things about God. And I think the preaching, preaching against sin is, it benefits people in that they need to know what's in the way of fellowship with God for Sure. But it also brings people low. So, like Romans 1, for example, you have Paul going on this, what seems like a long rant about how the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness. Right. And how all men, all men have fallen short of the glory of God. And then he goes on to detail particular sins that are a part of this falling short. He talks about homosexuality. He talks about. Let me read some of it since we're here. Can you hold my coffee? God bless you. He talks about maliciousness, strife, murder, evil, covetousness, slanderers, gossipers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. And then chapter two, why does he do this? Therefore, connecting to the previous chapter. You have no excuse. Oh, man. Every one of you who judges, for in passing judgment on another, you condemn yourself. Meaning the Jews are over here thinking, oh, that's the Gentiles. Like. Like the Gentiles, they. Underneath the wrath of God, we. We, Abraham, people, we. Good. But it's like, nah. If. If you have practiced these things, you actually. Ha. You're not even in the position to judge anybody because you're just as needy.

[Pastor or Mentor]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

And so you. I think this is. I think preaching against sin humbles us under the mighty hand of God so that we can now see that we actually do need Jesus.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Brian Perry]

So we preach sin so people know the reality of their state before God. And we also preach sin to cultivate and nurture a desire for a savior. So you get what I'm saying? Like, how will you know that you need saving if you don't realize that you need saving?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, that's good. That's good.

[Brian Perry]

What other. What other way is there?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Let me ask you this, though, because I think, you know, people who probably watch your sermons or watch my YouTube videos of evangelism, stuff like that, they. They. They've seen us kind of address sin. Right.

[Brian Perry]

Got to.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. It is not just saying, go out and just spew truth out to everybody who will listen. Right. Because even, like, I think we. We quote that scripture a lot, but we don't meditate on the two creatures, the serpent and the dove. It's like, what is he. What is he talking about? If you pay attention to a serpent, a serpent is cunning. A serpent is not seen until it wants to be seen. A serpent is not loud. Right. And neither is a dove. A dove is gentle. Not only is a dove gentle, it is not even nature to Be malicious, right? In any way. And so I think what God is saying is like man, like be cunning, be wise, be discerning. You don't always have to be loud, you don't always have to be seen. And when a snake is seen, it's because he wants to be seen and it's effective when it's seen. And so a lot of times we are just not effective because we just, we just out and about or whatever. And so I think what you just said is just so much wisdom in that. And one of the ways in which I felt like the Lord, when the Lord started to improve me being an evangelist or me just being a light in people's lives around me, is when I start to move with that particular wisdom, a wisdom that says, you know what, how can, how can I be more discerning in showing this person that they're life and the way they live in their life is a little, little problematic. What that might look like is God may lead you to be, to be humble before them and to explain all the problematic ways in which you fell into sin so they can be receptive to when you correct them. And so I, I, I, I, I've even had times like that where, you know, because I think a lot of times people expect Christians to just rebuke, rebuke, rebuke, right? And we have this, you know, holier than thou stands. And this is like, like no, like even reminding somebody that man like, no, I struggle with sin too. Not only am I going to tell you that I struggle with sin, I'm going to tell you the particular 10, the particular sin that I've struggled with and how it's still a wrestle and how I submitted to the Lord so they can be more receptive to, to you when you call out their sin.

[Brian Perry]

I also think that to back up a little bit in praying and seeking wisdom, we don't wanna stay there, right? And so just because you pray doesn't mean that you also don't address, right? Because I think there is a time and a place for everything. There's a time to speak and there's a time to be silent. But I also think that the state of the person determines the wisdom in what you address. Meaning how I address a person who is a believer about their sins is going to be different than how I address a person. That's an unbeliever about their sin, right? Because as a believer, they know God, they are filled with his spirit. There is the assumption that you already have the power to do right so the way I address is, as a sister, as a family member, it's, hey, you have confessed that you know him, that you love him, that you will serve him. Therefore, if I see these things, even Paul says, you know, like, bring it to your brother. If they don't repent, bring two or three, then bring it before. Like, there's a whole structure to how you address sin for a believer. But the unbeliever, I'm not gonna nitpick a particular sin. Like, oh, they curse all the time or they gamble. They don't know him.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, they don't know him.

[Brian Perry]

The bigger issue isn't these individual sins. The bigger issue is how do I help this person know God?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, that's actually one of my big pet peeves.

[Brian Perry]

Go ahead.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

To be honest with you. Which is what I do not like when Christians complain about what the world sinners are. Yeah, it's just like, didn't you act your nature out when you. Before you came? This is like, like. And like, I even had people on my YouTube video say, Preston, they shouldn't be cursing in front of you. I'm talking to, like, I have a YouTube channel talking. Yeah, it's just like, you know, and I. And I, you know, I think that we just become so detached from our old nature, you know, to the point where we feel like, you know, the world ain't gonna be the world.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah, yeah. Like, we're surrounded by unbelievers. And so the way I approach them is actually I do. I put more energy into the big picture. Yeah, that's good. Of putting Jesus before them, what he came to do, and how he is calling them to himself. I'm not gonna, like. Cause I'm not. I'm not discipling you in Jesus because you're not in him, but I am evangelizing you towards Jesus, which is to

[Jackie Hill Perry]

say, hey, that's a good distinction.

[Brian Perry]

It's just so the way I navigate. But I wanted to read this verse when it comes to addressing sin, because I think if we could get this verse in our hearts the way we do, things would change. It's 2 Timothy. You're gonna know what I'm reading. 2nd Timothy 23:26, it says, have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies. You know, that they breed quarrels. That. That should include all these social media accounts that are just controversial all the time. Heresy hunters and the Lord's servant, the Lord's slave. Doulos must not be quarrelsome, quarrelsome, argumentative, always trying to have a fight over doctrine and over all the things, but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will. Notice the character traits that Paul draws out when it comes to how we address sin. Right? Not quarrelsome, kind, able to teach, patient, enduring, gentle. Right. So that means that the way you address sin in the congregation or even with unbelievers believers requires dependence on the Holy Spirit. Because gentleness is a fruit of the Spirit. Kindness is a fruit of the Spirit, Endurance is a fruit of this. Like, like, like it. You can't do it in the flesh.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me of 1st Peter 3, 15 when it says, always be prepared to make a defense of why you believe what you believe, but yet do it with gentleness and respect. And I think a lot of times people think, oh, this, this scripture is only referring to apologetics, but it's no, it's, it's really just talking about be prepared to give the gospel. Give, give, prepared to give the reason why you believe what you believe. But if we don't have gentleness and respect and kindness, we make the God that we talk about look, look like a liar. Right? And so like, this is the reason why God in his scriptures has put sometimes more emphasis on how we say things other than what we say. Because, you know, people care. They don't care what you know until they know that you care. And so like, our conduct and our behavior matters to the Lord.

[Brian Perry]

It really does.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It does. Like, if we, if we, like. Because a lot of times people be like, I just gave them the truth. Yeah, you gave them the truth in a garbage bag.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah, you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And you want them to accept it. It's like, take this truth and it's like, no, like, cause we be thinking

[Brian Perry]

we can abuse people towards Jesus.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We have to understand that we, we, we fight against a real devil who wants to pervert how God has made us and wants us to be, Wants us to give so much grace at times that we lack truth and wants to give us so much truth at times that we lack grace. Jesus and the gospel is the beautiful balance of both. And you know, and yeah, so for me, like, I'm a direct person as well, you know, I'm not afraid to speak truth, but sometimes I can lack wisdom of when I say things. And so also too, like, truth given at the wrong time can be just as harmful. And so my discipler, you know, our discipler told me, like Preston, you, You're.

[Melody Fabian]

You're.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You're Peter in a lot of ways. You are very impulsive. God has made you to speak truth, but he wants to give you. Like, you don't naturally lean towards wisdom. You have fearlessness, but your fearlessness, I don't want you to mistake your fearlessness for boldness. That's good, because boldness is not doing what men are afraid to do. Boldness is about obedience. Boldness is doing what God told you to do. And so for me, I just had to. I had to balance that. You know what I'm saying? I had to bal.

[Pastor or Mentor]

Really.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay, Lord, I see something. Let me. Let me seek you so I can know how to say it.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I think God wants to use you how he has uniquely made you. But I also think that God wants you to trust in him, so you to. To clean up all that messiness. That's good because I think. I think that's. That's what happens in our ministry. We, like, we. We operate in how God has uniquely made us, but if we don't submit that to him and give that to him, we just. We sloppy with it.

[Olivia from Ollie]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

That's why. Good that to see the beauty in your temperament so that you don't try to become something you're not absolutely, you know, like, there's beauty and goodness in your fearlessness because that's literally what the Lord intended. But the sanctification process is God removing the hindrances to his glory through your personality. That's good. And so for me, just as the Lord continues to purify and sanctify me, he's continuing to growing me in the clarity of my communication about truth, but also in love for people.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's good.

[Brian Perry]

So that as I walk in my natural temperament, it's still undergirded by the love of Jesus that I don't naturally have. Speaking of temperaments, a common discouragement that I've seen among women, and this might exist among men that I've just experienced is people feeling like to give the great commission, to engage culture. They put themselves in a category of how they can do that, Right? So one time we had a friend a long time ago when me and you and others used to do poetry all the time in Chicago. She felt like she wasn't as useful because she wasn't creative and she was more administrative, more logistical. And we was like, you ain't got to be a poet to be faithful you know what I'm saying? But I see that often where it's like, like, oh, like I have to preach or I have to, I have to go out and give the gospel on the street where you, where people miss, like, no, how has God made me? How has God gifted me? And where has God put me? How do I engage and give him glory with all of those.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

What do you think about that?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I was going to ask you what do you think? Because I, I would love to hear. Well, I can, I don't, I didn't want to speak for you, but I, like, I, I, I think looking at our own lives, like, like the private lives that we have is a good example because, you know, I'm a poet. You know, I'm a speaker. You're, you're, you're a speaker, preacher, teacher, all of, all of these things. But I tell people all the time, like I said before, God will use you how he has uniquely made you. And so, like, I think one way I see you, you know, being used in your private life and giving the gospel, I think is a, a good picture for people because you're not like me. You won't go up to a stranger and give them the gospel.

[Brian Perry]

Nope.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right.

[Brian Perry]

Anxiety.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Anxiety. Right. But I think that sometimes people taking over me. Yeah. I think sometimes this why I be losing my thought because she always singing. But I think sometimes people think that, like, you know, I have to be evangelistic in this way. Right. I have to be evangelistic like Preston, Like Preston does, which evangelism video. I have to be evangelistic how? Like, Jackie gives the gospel in her sermons, and it's like, no, like, are you being used? How God has uniquely made you? I tell this story all the time of how when we was coming back from Virginia, I saw some Jehovah's Witnesses in the airport, and I'm like, yo, I feel, not only do I feel called, but I feel this compulsion, right. Because God made me like that. And so when I was like, jackie, I'm going to go get a gospel to these Jehovah's Witnesses, you was like, okay, I'm going to go get some food. Right. Like, I didn't feel the need to be like, no, you're a Christian too. Come, come with me. Sometimes I have encouraged you to do so, but it's like, no, like, that's just not your thing.

[Brian Perry]

I actually ended up getting in your way.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. When I did it, absolutely. But when I left, right. And, you know, found you at the, at the, at the, at the restaurant. You were sitting there praying with the waitress, and I was like, wow. Come to find out, the lady, you know, asked you, who you ordering food for? My husband. Where's? He's over there talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, I came from a family of Jehovah's Witnesses, and they did XYZ to me. You was able to share the gospel with her and pray with her. And so you didn't seek out a conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses, but you didn't deny one either. Right. And so a lot of times, God is going to use you to be a pursuer. Right. A lot of times God is going to use your gifts to be a preacher. Right. But being an evangelist and being a disciple and making disciples is more about obedience than anything.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah. Being ready.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Being ready for the season. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's like. And I think that sometimes people look at other people's gifts and feel this need to be what they are. And it's like, no, like, God made you unique and he's going to use you. The question is, are you obedient? That's good.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah. I think, because you don't know how long. I just carried a lot of anxiety and. And fear and discouragement because I thought that to be faithful, I had to be like other people.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think that we missed the purpose of God creating a body. When he talks about how a toe can't be the knee and the knee can't be the shoulder, it's like he created us uniquely different for a reason. And so I think a lot of times a church might have a particular mission and they want everybody to conform to their mission. But I think what leadership has to do is leadership has to notice the giftedness in certain people and cultivate that gift in them. Right. Cause so what I used to do when we co led a church in Chicago, I was the head of the evangelism team. Right when I started, I made everybody go out. Not because I felt like everybody was called to go out. I made everybody go out so I can notice who ain't. And so, yeah, you don't need to be out. I don't think that this is. And as a leader, that was my job, to be prayerful and to discern people's gifts. And so what we did, because we co led a house church, I understood the people who had the gifts of hospitality. And so I was like, you know what? The people out here who are evangelists like me, they might not have the gifts of hospitality. And so when we given the gospel to them. I know where to point them back to where they can be served in a different way.

[Brian Perry]

That's good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. And so I think that if we understand that everybody is not called to serve in the same way, we won't be trying to force people to be an evangelist because we are an evangelist in the same way that we are evangelists. But we're all created to make disciples.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah. And don't hear us saying that God won't make you uncomfortable. That's not what we're saying.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No.

[Brian Perry]

Like there will be times where you have to play a role that you don't feel especially equipped for. There will be times where God will call you to obey him in a way that you don't feel like you're gifted for. But the overall emphasis is there are also ways in which God has equipped you, you, gifted you and placed you that actually serve the overall call that he has on your life. Identify that and walk in it.

[Preston Perry]

You know those tiny back to school emergencies that somehow become your problem. That's why I love Uber Eats. You can order school supplies, snacks and lunchbox essentials for $5 or less. So when your kid casually drops I don't like peanut butter anymore or I need five green hives highlighters for a project due tomorrow, Uber Eats has you covered. Get everything you need for back to school today from your favorite brands like Aldi and Staples. On Uber Eats. Order now ends 97. $5 or less before taxes and fees. Select items only. Availability varies. See app for details.

[Olivia from Ollie]

Hey friends. Olivia from Ollie. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science backed solutions that work with your life. That's where Olli comes in. Start your mornings off right with multis made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut supporting probiotics and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one Gummy supplement brand. Stock up on ollie.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Brian Perry]

If people didn't know me, somebody could. Like let's say I. I didn't have a public ministry. It could look like a copy for me to say, I'm gonna let my husband go do evangelism while I sit here on the sidelines. Right?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

But I do think that it's been interesting in our marriage to explore the distinctions between our gifts because I do Evangelism, I just don't do it like you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Melody Fabian]

And so that's. That's really good. So one of the things that I wanted to do a lot of things with this book, but one of the things that I wanted to do in this book is I wanted to destroy this idea that evangelists. Evangelist. That evangelism has to look one way, because I want to give people the freedom to know that God will use you, how he has uniquely made you. Like, Like. Like, period. Like, I think a lot of times we see people do evangelist evangelism, and we think we have to do it that way. And so what I want people to know is that I'm not teaching you how to do evangelism like Preston here. I don't. I don't want to create.

[Brian Perry]

I opt.

[Melody Fabian]

Yeah, I don't want to create more me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I want.

[Melody Fabian]

I want God to use you. How he has uniquely made you. And one of the stories that I wrote in the book was when we were in the airport leaving Virginia for your. Your brother's retirement ceremony, I saw some Jehovah's Witnesses in the airport, and I felt compelled to go talk to them. And there are people who feel compelled to talk to people from different religions or the loss. And that way. And I was like, yo, Jackie, you want to. You know, I'm about to go talk to these Jehovah's Witnesses. And you was like, okay, I'm about to go get something.

[Brian Perry]

Breakfast, peace. We better catch this flight. I will pray for them on the way back to Atlanta. Right?

[Melody Fabian]

And you, and you. And you left and. And got something to eat. I think I told this before. I think we tell a lot of diff. A lot of the same stories on our podcast. But what.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What.

[Melody Fabian]

What encouraged me is, was after I got done having the conversation with the Jehovah's Witnesses, I came. Came, and I saw you with your head down praying with the waitress. And I'm like, okay, if my introverted wife is praying with somebody, it's for a reason, right? Because like I said, you don't have conversations often like me. And afterwards, you was like, yeah. She was like, where your husband is? Where's your husband? I said, he's over there talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. You was like, yeah. She was like, yeah, I used to be a Jehovah's Witness, but they disowned me, yada, yada, yada. And you was. You were able to give her the gospel through that. And I use that story to encourage people to know that it's not about being like the evangelist that you see, but it's about being ready. Like God will use those who are ready. And so you don't have to be like me. But the question is, are you ready? I tell people all the time, the moment you tell somebody that you are Christian, you are an evangelist, the moment they start asking questions, you become an apologist. And the moment they're willing to follow you, you become a discipleship maker. And so think that, that if we are going to share our faith, it looks different. But when we share our faith, know that we might have questions and then, you know, apologetic conversations, might, might have. And then when people are willing to follow us, I think that's how we can start making disciples. And so I wanted to just let people know, like, no God is going to use you. How, how he uniquely made you. And I, I, I talked, I talk about that a lot in this book because I think, think I say this all the time. If you ever went to a workshop for me, I say that if we find our information, if we find our identity in the information we know and not the God we know, that we'll treat people like projects and not image bearers. And so I do think that there is, that there is helpful methods, right? But if we try to use the same method with every single person, it stops to be, it's not as effective. Effective. Yes, I'll say. And so one of the things that I want to teach people is man, when we go out, we really do have to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and how we should approach each person. But also, too, you still have to have a, a general understanding of the different type of people that you, that you, that you talk to. For example, when I talk to an atheist, because an atheist has a high emphasis on intellect and reason, I have to, I have to drive another vehicle to get to the same destination, right? But when I talk to somebody who worshiped her ancestors, especially a lot of black women in Atlanta and in a lot of our inner cities or whatever, the main component that drove them to their, their, their worldview is hurt and pain and rejection and this and feeling like they've been stripped of power and so they're trying to gain some type of dignity. And just so quick example, like when I talked to the lady who worshiped her ancestors or whatever, the first thing that I thought about was all the scriptures that dealt with ancestry worship. She told me she worshiped her ancestors. But as I was talking to her, I felt like the Lord was saying Preston, she knows all, all this. She just hate what she knows. She just hate what she knows. Right. And so now I have to find a different vehicle to get to the Gospel. Right. And so I started to ask, ask her what happened, you know, did you come from the Christian church? And so asking good questions will allow you to get to, to, to that destination, you know, and so I think you have to discern. But I, I don't believe in you using the same methods with every single person. Right. Because I think that every person that you talk to has a, has a cry.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah.

[Melody Fabian]

You just have to ask the right questions to hear it.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah, right. Jude asked, actually kind of recommends that in the book of Jude, which I have a Bible study on, by the way. I'll be forgetting I did that. But he begins his letter telling people to contend for the faith.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right, Right.

[Brian Perry]

The faith, meaning the essential fundamental doctrines that make up Christianity. Contend for it, fight for it, wrestle about it. Right. But then he shows us, towards the end, one of the ways we apply that, which is we apply these truths in different ways depending on the need of the, the person. You can be bold and be loving. And I think that love actually is the root of boldness. I don't think boldness is the source of going out and making disciples or evangelizing and apologetics. I really do think it's love, primarily love for God and love for neighbor. Because I think love makes you selfless. You know what I'm saying? Because if I'm out and about teaching or whatever the case may be, if I'm, like, turned in on myself myself, that means I want security, I want safety, I want to relax, I want to chill. Like, ministry is everything other than that, you know what I'm saying? Like ministry, you gotta die to yourself. You gotta care about people, you gotta ask questions, you gotta think about them, you gotta discern, you gotta pray, you gotta do all the stuff. And so, like, what does it look like for somebody to love people in their evangelism? Does that make sense what I'm saying? Because. Let me, let me share it this way. We watch this clip one time of somebody giving the gospel at. I don't know if it was Planned Parenthood, but it was some type of abortion situation.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

And you say how the woman said that she was raped, and what did the evangelist do?

[Melody Fabian]

The evangelist was like, so should your baby die just because you were raped? And I was like, oh, man, did he really just drop that ball?

[Brian Perry]

He did.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I, I, I, I, I think

[Brian Perry]

he thought that Was boldness, though.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Melody Fabian]

Because I think, I think. I think boldness without the Spirit just makes us fools. And I think boldness without the Spirit makes us insensitive. And I do think that there's a possibility to do more damage with speaking if it isn't done with. With Christlike love, which is the reason why the Bible tells us, because even when we think about First Peter. Can we go back there? Right, real quick? It says, always be prepared to make a defense. And you know, which, that, that. That's what the Greek word apologetics comes from. You know, apologia means to make a defense. And I think a lot of people park there. I need to be prepared to give a defense. And so they, they only focus on argumentations.

[Brian Perry]

That's good.

[Melody Fabian]

Right. And so they only park at the argumentation part, but then they ignore the rest of the sentence when it's said. But. But do it with gentleness and respect.

[Brian Perry]

That part.

[Melody Fabian]

Having a good conscience. So when, so when those revile, your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. Right, Because. Because what people have to understand is if you give somebody the gospel or if you give somebody the truth in a garbage bag and not. Not on a dignifying platter, they didn't reject the truth, they just rejected the way you gave it to them. And so when she rejected him, you know, he called her out for rejecting the gospel. I pray you, reprint, repent, and my heart for you, whatever. But it's like, no, like, she just literally gave you her story on a platter, and then you wrapped up the truth. You gave her the truth, but you put it in a garbage bag full of trash and you said, take it. And it's like, no, like. And so first Peter 3:15 lets us know that we always have to be prepared to give a defense. But the way we give it. It to it. But the way we give it to people matters. Yeah, it matters to God. And so this is the reason why I named the book, to be honest with you, how to tell the truth with the assistance of my beautiful wife, as you know.

[Brian Perry]

Who came up with that name? You did. You did.

[Melody Fabian]

Because, like, literally, Jackie came up with the name because that's what the heart. That's like, that's, that's what the book is about. That's the heart of the book. It's like, how can we learn how to give people the truth? But it. But. But in a dignifying way that's palable so they can receive it. Because if we have the truth, if we Know the truth? How can we give it to, in a way that, that people can, can accept it?

[Brian Perry]

I kind of want you to explain this verse a little bit more. I'm going read it and I'm going ask you a question first. Peter 3:15 says, but in your heart, honor Christ the Lord is holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason, for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. What would it look like for an, an evangelist to honor Christ the Lord as holy? Like what does that actually mean?

[Melody Fabian]

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Well one, I think context, Peter is talking to the persecuted church.

[Brian Perry]

Okay.

[Melody Fabian]

He's talking to people who have been persecuted, right. And so one, he's talking to people who might be confused about why you're even still a Christian.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right?

[Melody Fabian]

Be prepared. People are going to ask you questions, right? And so I think, you know, when you, when, when people ask you questions, sometimes they might disagree. And so then there was, will be kind of an argument, you know, confrontation there.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right.

[Melody Fabian]

But it's really about just being prepared. Right. And so I think what it would to answer your question in your heart, right. I think it's very important for us to understand that that scripture start first starts off with a heart issue, not an intellectual issue. It doesn't start, it doesn't say in your mind, it doesn't say what your thought process it says in your heart. And so apologetics is an heart issue, not a mind. So that's the first thing that we have to understand that Peter is addressing the heart in your hearts honor Christ the Lord. Right. And so one, if you, it's a reason why he said honor Christ, right. So if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, right. You should be prepared to give a defense of why he is that. Right. Which brings me back to what I said earlier is that people will acknowledge that Jesus existed, but they will deny

[Brian Perry]

his deity, my God.

[Melody Fabian]

Right? And so if, if, if, if our hearts want to honor the Lord.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah.

[Melody Fabian]

We then have to, to, to, to, to defend the fact that he is the Christ, that He is Lord over all our bodies, the way we show up, how we treat people, how we, how we use our money. He's Lord over all. We have to be able to, to defend that and, and, and to tell the world why He's Lord of all and not just Lord over me, but Lord over you too.

[Pastor or Mentor]

Yes.

[Melody Fabian]

Right. And then we, and then we have to honor him as holy, sacred. Right. And so he Then starts off, then he ends, was saying, but do it with gentleness and respect. He goes back to conduct. So look, this defense part is literally sandwiched with a heart that honors the Lord. And it's. And then, then it goes to the defense. That's the meat. And then it, it, it. It goes back to conduct.

[Brian Perry]

Right? That's part of the bun.

[Melody Fabian]

But, yeah, but do it with gentleness and respect. And so I think when an evangelist and an apologist goes out there, it's like, man, how can I honor this Lord? How can I honor God as Christ, as Lord, as holy, in a way that gives him. That gives him honor while dignifying the people that he created? And so I don't think that we. A lot of times, I think we drop the ball. I think that we want to honor the Lord at the expense of boo. Booing on people, people. And God is saying, that's actually not honoring me because you're actually making the gospel look like a liar with the

[Brian Perry]

way you give it.

[Melody Fabian]

And so if you give people the truth, put it on a garbage bag. Right. They can still walk away not believing your message because the way you gave it to them. And so that's that. I think that's what first Peter is letting us know. Like, you, you, you, You. You gave them a reason to reject truth. Truth because you were a jerk. And so we have to figure out how to tell the truth in a way that gives people not a. Not an excuse to reject it at all. Right? And so I think that's. That's what I'm trying to teach people in the book.

[Brian Perry]

I imagine that sometimes it's hard for people because your family, they know you. They know where you came from. They even know what you still struggle with.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

How would you encourage people who. They ain't got no issue giving the gospel to people at school, school or at work, but when it comes to their parents, when it comes to their siblings, when it comes to their cousins, it actually is just more difficult.

[Melody Fabian]

Yeah, quick story. That's a good question, babe. Quick story. When I, When I came to the Lord, I. I was led to Christ by an evangelist. And so I got out there and I started sharing the gospel fast. When I first became a Christian, people thought I was the boldest little thing that you. That. That you've ever seen. Like, I was telling. Telling everybody about Jesus. Jesus. But the first time I went to my first family reunion, I was a coward. I grew up with 16 boy cousins,

[Brian Perry]

and

[Melody Fabian]

God quickly showed me that, no, you still want to fit in, in this space. You don't want to create this awkward environment. You know, you don't want your cousins to think that you think that you're better than.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Than them. And I knew they all heard I

[Melody Fabian]

had changed, and I still wanted to fit in. I didn't, I didn't. I didn't know how to. How to give the gospel to them.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And God quickly showed me that it's nothing wrong with having cowardly moments at times.

[Melody Fabian]

Just don't die that way. Just don't die coward.

[Brian Perry]

That's terrible way to die.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Melody Fabian]

Because the Bible says that coward won't inherit the kingdom of God, right? Because a coward, when a coward is who you are, it's, it's. It's impossible for the Lord to use you, and it's impossible for the Lord. It's. It's impossible for you to see the Lord when you're a coward. Because you only, you're only thinking about yourself. You're.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You're only.

[Melody Fabian]

You're only thinking about your own comfort. And it's hard for you to even think about the will of the Lord, let alone people, right? And so God had to quickly correct me, you know, And I think God freed me when it came to giving the gospel to my family members when he showed me that everything doesn't have to look the same. I don't have to go. And the first time I see my cousin say, man, let me show. Sit down. I'm going show you how to repent. I didn't have to do that. Right? Because sometimes we see Jesus doing both. We see Jesus giving the gospel and revealing himself to the woman at the well. That was evangelism.

[Brian Perry]

Yes.

[Melody Fabian]

Right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But we see people.

[Melody Fabian]

We see Jesus walking with his disciples, having a relationship with people. That's also in some ways evangelism. Right? And so we see that it looks different, right? And so with the family members, a lot of times it's a slow cook. Like, I think a lot of times we want to try to fry fish before we catch it. And this is like, no, like, if you're, like, if you are around your

[Jackie Hill Perry]

family members and you live a life

[Melody Fabian]

that's worthy of the gospel, converse, natural conversations will pop up, right? And so I had this pressure when I first became a Christian Christian to go around my family members and to always think, like, how can I give them the gospel?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What if they do this?

[Melody Fabian]

What if they do that? And it's just like, nah. God was like, no, just go amongst them and live. Just go amongst them. And live and be ready when they have questions. And so that freed me. And I saw that I was a coward because I was overthinking.

[Brian Perry]

Interesting.

[Melody Fabian]

I was just overthinking a lot. Right. Um, but, but I, I do think that there is a natural fear of losing friends and family members because of what you believe. Yeah, that's just a natural fear.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah.

[Melody Fabian]

But at the same time, one thing I'll say this and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll end this little rant. What, what God has shown me through, through the years is people might,

[Jackie Hill Perry]

people

[Melody Fabian]

might have a problem with what you believe, believe. But when life, start life in, if you are consistent, they, they'll double back and come back around. And so one of my close cousins hated the fact that I was a Christian. Would ask me questions like, man, like, you feel like the Christian Christian people more your family than we is. I saved your life multiple times. Like, like I wrote about it in the book. Like, like he was upset, right? And I told him, I was like, man, I, I, I love you, but I can't ride with you like I used to ride. I don't believe what you believe. I don't believe that, you know, Christianity is the white man's religion. Yada, yada, yada. And when life started, life in, yeah, when he went through relationships, problems, when he got arrested, guess who he came to?

[Brian Perry]

You.

[Melody Fabian]

He came to me. And so I think that should encourage people to know that it might be rocky in the beginning it, but if you live a life worthy of the gospel, you ain't got to, you, you ain't got to force the gospel down people throat. They'll come back to you.

[Pastor or Mentor]

Well, first of all, like, back in that day, I mean, you had some Chicago fame, I guess, some local fame, but, but you're not, you weren't Preston Perry as you are now. Right. But whether or not you had a stage or a platform, you know, my, my heart was, here's a young individual who, who needs community, who needs discipleship, who needs pastoral care. And so, you know, so again, whoever you were, you know, I think God has given me a burden to see young people. And I think of Jesus when he saw Simon Peter. He says, you are Simon, the son of John, but you shall be Peter. Right. And we all need somebody. And I had this in my life when I was younger, somebody who could see the potential in us that we can't see ourselves able to walk with us to, to that fruition, to that sanctification point. And so that was, that was my whole heart. In, in the relationship is just man, here. Here's an individual who needs, who needs to be fine tuned, who, who needs continued walking with.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And man, was I rough around the edges. Oh, my goodness. Like, I think, you know, your discipleship has really helped me throughout the years because back then I was, I had this zeal, I had this passion for the Lord, but I was very reckless at the mouth. I was very still rough around the edges. And I think that you just came in at such a pivotal time and just begin to help mold and shape me and disciple me into like a mature believer. And then, you know, just to give people context for you really quickly before we go on to, like, the next thing, it's like, man, when I came into your life, shocked me how many men you were discipling. Like, so Jack, not Jackie, Heidi, his wife Heidi and Brian, they live in the heart of the west side on one of the worst blocks on the west side of Chicago. And I think when you guys first moved in, somebody shot in your house. A bullet almost hit Heidi. And you dedicated your life to praying for that block.

[Brian Perry]

And they live there on purpose.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And they lived there on purpose. Like, they, you know, they chose to live on this block on purpose. And they don't have children of their own, right? And so they just dedicated their life to just taking in young men for years. And so as long as we've known them, I mean, I, I can't even count how many young men from the block or from the neighborhood or from other neighbors in Chicago that has lived in your house. And so when I came and saw that, for me, it was just, it took Christianity, it took the, like, Christianity to another level for me. It was like transformational for me because I was like, man, Christians actually dedicate their whole lives to the dedication of discipling others. And I was like, this is the guy that I was running from the whole time. I was like, no, like, this is his heart, you know, and so I just thought, you know, you was fascinating. And so you just came into my life such a, such a pivotal time to help mold me and shape me.

[Pastor or Mentor]

What I always appreciate about you, Preston, though, is in the midst of your, your rough edges, whatever, there was a desire to learn, to grow, to be challenged. And so I think that's what a lot of times we miss when we're investing in people. We look for the finished product. We look for the person who's fully made into a disciple, right? And we don't see the potential in the midst of the shadows. We all have strengths and shadows, and they're really just two sides of the same coin, our shadows. So, you know, you're a bold person. Right. And so the. When. When our sin nature corrupts, that boldness, it comes out as brashness. It comes out as hurtful. It comes out as not thinking before we talk, so forth. Right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You used to always call me Peter.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor or Mentor]

But when it's sanctified, right now you're speaking truth and a way that. That falls on. On ears that are ready to listen to it because it's. It's. It's coming with love and grace and compassion and so forth.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's good.

[Pastor or Mentor]

So, again, it's been great just in the. I mean, we're talking 20 years of seeing this continuing God doing a work in you, the Holy Spirit doing a work in you to make you into the man you. You are now.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's encouraging, Man.

[Brian Perry]

That's encouraging.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm encouraged.

[Brian Perry]

I. Me and Preston were talking. Talking about just our relationship with you this morning. And I was saying how. I think the early part of my walk, there was someone who helped me to know how to be a disciple. And then Melody Fabian, she. She just taught me how to be a wife and a mother and a friend. And I think you have taught me how to be a leader, because when I started to work under you, you just were, first of all, the reason I even came to Chicago in the first place.

[Pastor or Mentor]

We got to tell the story because

[Brian Perry]

Brian texted me and like, do you want to. Would you want to work in Chicago at a nonprofit or something like that? And I'm like, I'm not going to leave St. Louis, like, for why. And then I feel like you gave me the salary. And I said, I will pray about it now. But I didn't know that behind this, I guess Preston and Brian had been having conversation, and Preston had been praying that God would send me to Chicago.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

So.

[Pastor or Mentor]

And Zacky, you were working at Wendy's. You were flipping burgers.

[Brian Perry]

I learned a lot.

[Pastor or Mentor]

And so Preston started. Preston started talking about you. Right. And like, you know, I'm interested in this. This girl has been my friend, and people know the story. And so I needed a position filled. And so I was like, oh, let's offer a position.

[Brian Perry]

Absolutely crazy that you put me in that position. You put me in a position to be a leader over this swath of women. Mind you, every single one of them were older than me. I didn't know what I was doing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What's crazy is and this is the reason why I tell people the science, discipleship and good leaders is so pivotal in the body of Christ, because the people like how you and Jackie become good leaders. I really think when what. What a leader job is to do is to help cultivate you. But they have to see something in you that you don't see in yourself. And so I was working at Radio Shack, you were working at Wendy's.

[Melody Fabian]

This guy, you know what I'm saying?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I go to him and be like, yo, he just started discipling me. I just let him in. I'm like, yo, not only, you know, do I like you, but. But I, you know, not like that, right? But I like this girl.

[Brian Perry]

Why would we even.

[Pastor or Mentor]

Thank you for clarifying that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Cause I was talking about how I like you intimately. And I don't want nobody to get it twisted, right? I was like, I like this girl named Jackie Hill. He's like, yeah, the poet. And I was like, yeah. I was like, I really think God is calling me to pursue her. And he was like, I can see how God is calling you, yada, yada, yada, to that to her. I'mma offer her a job. And so you offer her a job.

[Brian Perry]

That's insane.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's the Lord, right? You offer her a job to Shakar Chicago. You know what I mean? And then you see something in her. You put her over the.

[Melody Fabian]

The. The.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

The women's branch of the. Of the organization to mentor mentors. And then you freaking make me like the evangelist kind of like, person in the church. I'm like. And so I. I said it to say this, like, I feel like you saw something in us that we didn't see in ourselves. When I was working at Radio Shack, when she was working at Wendy's. And I think that's how we kind of, you know, saw that God was calling us to. To greater, I think. And so that's just dope. I never would have, you know, pursued her in that way if she never came to Chicago.

[Brian Perry]

So Matthew 28, go therefore make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching that's them to obey all that I commanded you.

[Pastor or Mentor]

Lo.

[Brian Perry]

I will be with you until the end of the age. That's like a mission statement, I think, for your approach to ministry. Do you mind explaining that text for us?

[Pastor or Mentor]

Yeah, yeah. So obviously, I think we. We all know this is Jesus went to the cross. He died, was buried days and early Sunday morning, he rose again, right? And now he starts to appear to the disciples, to the women disciples first, and then to the male disciples. He tells the 11 male disciples that were left, right, to meet him on the mountain in Galilee, which is a three day walk from Jerusalem, where they were right. And so they journey there and Jesus gives them his last words, is his words before he departs are those words right? And the emphasis, the crux of it is to make disciples. And you know, I always use the illustration like most of us don't like to make food from scratch, make a meal from scratch. We like to go uber eats it or go to restaurant and enjoy someone else's labor. And that's how I feel like a lot of churches do, we look for disciples, we search for disciples rather than do the work that it entails to make them right. But Jesus, that's what Jesus does for three years. He invests his life into these individuals that will go and grow the church. And in there you have blue collar workers, you have fishermen, not highly educated, you have a thug, Simon the Zealot, you have James and John who are like brats, want to cast down fire from heaven. So these weren't like the cream of the crop. These were people again whom Jesus said, I see what's in you and I will bring it out of you, right? And so he walks with them for three years and now he calls them to do the same thing with others, right? So go make disciples. Go find people who aren't disciples yet and shape them, walk with them, invest in them, teach them, you know, live life. That you, you kind of alluded to that the. When it says baptize, the idea is more than just dunk someone in water, but it's this idea. If you immerse people in the character of God, the way you do that is by opening up your life for them so that they could see God in you.

[Brian Perry]

Give us, go give us the pickle illustration.

[Pastor or Mentor]

Give you the. Yes, so we all.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Pickle illustration.

[Pastor or Mentor]

You know, if you grew up in hood, you love pickles, right? Maybe in some other context they look like cucumbers, but they're the same thing really. But this guy named Nicandor wrote a recipe of how to make pickles 150 years before Jesus was born. But he wrote it in Greek. And so there's a lot of clues in it. And so he says, you take a cucumber, he says bapto it, you dip it in water, right? So that's the word. When Jesus says, the one who dips his hand in the bowl with Me is the one who's going to betray me. So you. You wash the cucumber to get the dirt off it, right? It becomes moist for a little bit, but eventually, if you just put it back on the table, it's going to get dry again. It's still going to be a cucumber, right? But then he says, you baptize it. That's the Greek word, baptize, right? You baptize it in vinegar solution. And so you let it soak there for days, you know, and now it starts to take on the object that it's in, that is submerged in, right? And now you. You take that. That object out, and it's no longer a cucumber. It's been changed, right? The oldest past, the new has come. Doesn't taste like a cucumber anymore. It doesn't smell like a cucumber anymore.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So that's my story.

[Pastor or Mentor]

So spending. Spending the time, right? Now, Jesus also says teach, right? So there's three commands. There is go, right? So we're. We're to. As we're going be active and making disciples, right? Wherever we go, so to the gym. So it's not. It's not necessarily about adding things to your schedule. A lot of times what me and Preston would do is just, you know, hey, I'm going to run here. Come with me. You know, Jackie, me and you, we grabbed lunch together, right? And had a staff meeting. So as you go and make disciples, right? And you do it by, again, baptized, by immersing yourself in the lives of other people. And then you do it by teaching, right? Open. Now you open up the Scriptures and you explain what people are seeing in your life. Why do you care? Why do you love? Why do you sacrifice? Why do you serve? Right? This is why.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, talk about that. Talk about the dynamics of knowing how to, like, lead people. Well, when you're discipling them, it's.

[Pastor or Mentor]

You guys have three kids who are four kids. Three kids. Four. Four kids who are very different, I'm sure, right? And so it's in the same way, you know, education world, you call it an individualized Education plan, right? Some kids need to learn through rote memory. Other kids need to be active. Other kids need a discussion about something. So in the same way, I call it idp, right? Individualized Discipleship Plan. So you got to know the individual and know how to best approach them, how to best speak to them, how to best engage them, so forth. First, Thessalonians 5:14 says, we urge you, brothers, admonish the Idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.

[Brian Perry]

That's right.

[Pastor or Mentor]

So when someone's just being lazy, you know, it's like, okay, I need to give them a little push or hurt a little push, right? Like, hey, you need to spend time with the Lord. You need to date your spouse, right? You need to do X, Y and Z. But then if I admonish the faint hearter, that's going to crush them, right? Because they want to do what's right, but they're just, they're. It's failed so many times before, right? And they just need to be encouraged in it and then help the weak, right? Some people just don't know, right? So, okay, let's, let's talk about it, you know, let's talk about how to love your, your spouse. Let's, let's talk about how to, how to study the scriptures and so forth. So I don't want to beat you up with something you don't know already, right? But be patient with them, all, right? And, and it takes time. Took Jesus three years spending 24 hours with his disciples. So the thought that I could, we could disciple someone, help someone grow in a matter of weeks or in a matter of days is, is foolish. That's good.

[Brian Perry]

When you look at, you've been in Christ how long, 30 years?

[Pastor or Mentor]

Yeah, 30 plus.

[Brian Perry]

When you look at ministry, like discipleship in churches and in communities, when you are earlier believer and look at it now, would you see, would you say that encouraging a discipleship culture is harder now?

[Pastor or Mentor]

Yeah, I think, you know, social media obviously kind of builds within people, this shock culture, you know, it's like what gets the likes, what gets the attention. Discipling people doesn't get that right. And, and so you're literally teaching people how to be patient, how to be long suffering, how to walk with people. And so I've discipled however many people over 30 years of my life. When people look at it like a Billy Graham, let's say, right, who's led hundreds of thousands of people to the Lord, it seems more significant, right? That's more, more sexy. Or the person, again, who has 100,000 YouTube followers or whatever, right? It looks like bigger, right? But what gets me is God always works slowly, it appears throughout history, right? He always chooses the low, the weak, and he's patient with them and he walks with them, he endures with them. And so Jesus could have came down and been the biggest father pop star, you know, he, he could have came today and had the biggest social media Following. He chose not to. He chose to come at a time where. Where, you know, we didn't have phones, you know, and. And he simply again walked with 12 people for three years. And then he said, deuce, you know.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's. That's deep. And those 12 people help, you know, spread the gospel to. Throughout the whole earth.

[Pastor or Mentor]

And I don't want to, obviously, you guys have a platform, a stage and so forth. So I've told you guys in private before, the national needs to follow the local. What starts in the home needs to spread out. And so it's cool to have the national platform, the broad reach and so forth. But when Jesus. And I think it's Luke 5 crowd is pressing into Jesus to hear the word of God, it says that Jesus saw two fishermen cleaning their nets. And he goes. He leaves the crowd and he goes to them and he tells them, hey, let me get in your boat. And he pushes out. He teaches the crowd for a little longer, but then he pushes out with those two, which are Andrew and Peter. And that's where he goes, right? It's like, okay, there's a time for. For the crowd, but then there's a time, okay, let me. Let me observe who's in the crowd, and let me identify one or two that I could go deeper with.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's deep.

[Brian Perry]

Brian probably hates this because he feel like we gas.

[Olivia from Ollie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Melody Fabian]

No.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But a pastor came over here Sunday and met Jackie for the first time. You know, we chopped it up. We kicked it. And he was like. And this is. I'm. I'm not telling this story to big up me and Jackie or to make us look important. I'm really not. But one of the things he said said was he was like, how are y' all so grounded? He was like, how are y' all so normal, being that you guys have like a platform and all of this stuff, yada, yada, yada. And then Jackie. I was gonna respond and say the same thing, but Jackie responded first, and she was like, honestly, we. We would disciple well. And, you know, she was like, our. Our pastor Brian died. Like, like, literally disciple discipled us well in humility. And what I love about the way you discipled us well in humility. And what we told the pastor is I think sometimes people try to disciple you and humility by trying to be your Holy Spirit, right? Which means, like, you don't want to be the Holy Spirit in nobody else life except the. The era of the. The area of humility it's like you don't want to be the, you don't want to help me try to, you know, make me manage my money well and all that, you know, I mean, you want to make sure I, I don't fall in pride. But with you, it was like a, it was like a real genuineness to, to, to see us love the Lord, to love his people and to not be haughty because of the, the, the, the, the, the platform that God has given us, a steward. And I remember when we first started doing the PIA tour, it was me, Jackie, Joe Solomon or whatever, and we all, you know, went to the church and we would come home Monday, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays we would go back on the road for the tour. And every single Monday you did heart check with us. And you would just remind me of the things that was important, you know, you remind me. You would say, are you dating Jackie? Are you loving your wife? Are you in your scripture, are you thinking that you're more than what you, more than what you are? You know, and so you just reminded me. And so I think what, what you did was you were able to instill good character in me because you had good character.

[Melody Fabian]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You were able to instill good character in me, which I think in so many ways has preserved us. And I think because that has preserved us, us, I think God has given us more. Right. And so I, I, I think just the fruit of your discipleship has helped us just to be grounded in a way that is, I don't know that, that, Yeah, I can't even really explain it. I, I, I think, I think the, the fruit of your discipleship in our life has really root, like rooted me, like I, I feel rooted.

[Brian Perry]

It saved our lives. Lives.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

Yeah. And I don't mean that to be exaggerative. I think pride is destructive.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Brian Perry]

And satanic and isolating and unhelpful and joyless. But it's easy and it's convenient.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's good.

[Brian Perry]

And I think we have so much context and so much teaching and so much of an example for why it's not worth it. Worth it to To Exalt Yourself with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley edited by the team at Tread Lively Artwork by Hob thank you for listening. Now go with God.

[Preston Perry]

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