Discipling Our Kids with the Krugers

Summary

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Podcast Summary: With The Perrys – "Discipling Our Kids with the Krugers"

Date: May 18, 2026
Hosts: Preston Perry & Jackie Hill Perry
Guests: Dr. Michael Kruger & Melissa Kruger

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Overview

In this engaging episode, Preston and Jackie Hill Perry are joined by Dr. Michael Kruger and Melissa Kruger to discuss the joys and complexities of discipling children in the Christian faith. Drawing on years of parenting experience and their new devotional for families, the Krugers share wisdom, practical strategies, and encouragement for parents at every stage, from toddlers to college age. The discussion delves into the importance of grief as a spiritual practice, creating sustainable family rhythms, teaching apologetics from an early age, and encouragement for single parents or those in spiritually mixed marriages.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Value of Grief and Lament in Christian Life

• Jackie opens with a story about appreciating the place of grief in spiritual endurance, referencing Melissa’s view:

  “Yeah, I cry a lot.” – Melissa Kruger (03:06)

• The hosts and guests agree that healthy lament is valuable for adults and children.
• Melissa shares her mother’s advice:

  “Babies are going to cry. And it’s okay…sometimes it’s just like, oh, you’re a teenager. They just need to cry.” – Melissa Kruger (04:06)

2. The Kruger’s Family Background

• Married almost 29 years (05:03), with three kids spaced three years apart (08:34).
• Their first child was born in Scotland, which came with unique challenges and joys (08:43).

3. Creating Family Devotional Resources

• The Krugers wrote a Good News Family Devotional—52 weeks through the Gospel of Mark (10:19).
• Why Mark instead of another gospel? Mark is story-driven, concise, and ideal for family engagement (13:21).

  “It has this real rapid sort of way it moves through the narrative. Each story is short and containable and it moves along quickly.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (13:54)

• They designed the devotional with different approaches for younger and older children to meet varied developmental needs (15:18–18:23).

4. Adapting Discipleship to Different Ages and Personalities

• Melissa outlines an educational approach using observation, interpretation, and application—customized for age and learning style (16:09).

  “Observation, interpretation, application, but also giving it age appropriately so that everybody gets to answer.” – Melissa Kruger (18:05)

• Dr. Kruger highlights the value of group study and sibling influence:

  “The different learning styles of the kids actually feeds one another horizontally...It’s not always bad to not meet every individual need.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (19:25)

• Preston notes how traditions and rhythms must be developed by parents who didn’t grow up with them (21:28).

5. Practicalities: Building Lasting Rhythms

• The Krugers didn’t grow up with family devotions, so they learned themselves and started small (23:35–25:53).

  “Kids only know the house they grow up in.” – Melissa Kruger (24:24)

• Family devotions shifted from night to morning as kids’ schedules changed, leading to a simple, achievable pattern (28:39).

  “Keep it really simple and achievable. Those are the two words I like to use.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (26:48)

6. Long-Term Fruit of Faithful Discipling

• Now empty nesters, the Krugers see their children thriving spiritually (25, 22, 19 years old), with examples such as missionary work and street evangelism (30:31–31:47).

  “The fruit has been amazing...just watching how they’re grown theologically and how their instincts are driven by scripture.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (30:31)

7. Developing Thinkers and Apologists

• Dr. Kruger advocates teaching apologetics young, roleplaying as “skeptic” to sharpen kids’ critical thinking and faith (35:13–36:11).

  “I would play skeptic with my kids...What would you say to that?” – Dr. Michael Kruger (35:15)

• The goal: Faith that can stand up to college-level challenges.

8. Early Exposure to Other Worldviews

• Krugers purposefully introduce opposing perspectives so the kids are equipped for real-world debates.

  “As parents, we’ve got to expose our kids to these non-Christian worldviews in small doses so they can be inoculated.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (38:12)

• Analogy to immune systems: Too much sheltering leads to susceptibility.

9. Sustaining Diligence When Tired or Discouraged

• Discipline and patterns help discipleship persist through exhaustion or hardship.

  “Place, plan, and a pattern...habits become the very helps that we need when we’re tired.” – Melissa Kruger (42:23)

• Encouragement to not be derailed by missing days—discipleship is bigger than one activity (41:23).

10. Encouragement for Single Parents or Spiritually Divided Homes

• Points to Timothy’s mother and grandmother as models (44:38).
• Stresses the role of community and local church support, mentorship, and leveraging every available resource (45:31–46:40).

11. How to Give the Gospel to Toddlers

• Focus on modeling faith and family rhythms:

  “It’s actually our example that is the most influential on them.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (48:08)

• High frequency, low depth for young kids; and as they grow, shift to deeper conversations with less frequency (50:14, a Jen Wilkin principle).

12. Memorable Family Anecdotes and Quotes

• Jackie shares a story about her 5-year-old daughter’s struggle with unanswered prayers, leading to real gospel conversations about God’s sovereignty and honesty in prayer (50:56–52:13).
• The importance of parents admitting mistakes and modeling repentance (49:54).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Grief:

  “Yeah, I cry a lot.” – Melissa Kruger (03:06)
  “That’s actually a really underestimated spiritual discipline.” – Jackie Hill Perry (03:13)

• On Family Devotional Rhythm:

  “My biggest parenting secret is kids only know the house they grow up in.” – Melissa Kruger (24:24)

• On Keeping it Simple:

  “Keep it really simple and achievable...because it’s not trying to do everything.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (26:48)

• On the Fruit of Labor:

  “Just watching how they’re grown theologically and how their instincts are driven by scripture...it set a trajectory that’s really been life changing.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (30:31)

• On Early Apologetics:

  "I would play skeptic with my kids...to sharpen their ability to answer real questions." – Dr. Michael Kruger (35:15)

• On Exposure to Other Worldviews:

  “Dirt is good...as parents, we've got to expose our kids to these non-Christian worldviews in small doses so they can be inoculated.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (38:12)

• On Starting with Toddlers:

  “They pick up a family vibe, a family feel. They also pick up the parental example.” – Dr. Michael Kruger (48:08)

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Practical Takeaways

• Start small and be consistent. Engage in simple, achievable devotionals regularly instead of waiting for ideal circumstances.
• Model faith honestly. Children learn more from observing parental faith in action than from perfect lessons.
• Foster open dialogue. Encourage questions, debate, and curiosity, adapting conversations for children’s age and maturity.
• Anchor routines in habits. Choose a place, time, and plan, so faith conversations happen naturally as part of family life.
• Prepare for real-world challenges. Expose children to objections and other worldviews in age-appropriate ways before college.
• Lean on community and church. Single or spiritually solo parents: it’s valuable to connect children with mentors and a supportive church family.
• God saves – parents nurture. Ultimately, only God can save your children. Your role is to plant seeds, pray, and trust the Lord.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its combination of deep theological wisdom, practical guidance for all kinds of parents, and candid storytelling. The Krugers’ experience and encouragement demystify family discipleship, making it approachable and achievable for everyone—from new parents with toddlers to those preparing teenagers for the wider world.

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Transcript

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

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[Dr. Michael Kruger]

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[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

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[Dr. Michael Kruger]

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[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

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[Dr. Michael Kruger]

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[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

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[Dr. Michael Kruger]

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[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Hi, saints and eight, how are you? I hope you are good. Blessed, happy, sad.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

You hope that they sad?

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I mean, they might be. I'm not happy or sad. I don't hope you're sad. I just know that that might actually be a reality. And so I. I hope.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Well, we have been talking about healthy lament lately and how it. How it's.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

We've been talking about that.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

We had a couple of guests on here talking about lament.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Oh, got it.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, about lament and how, you know,

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

you said it like it was recent. I was like, we. We wouldn't talk about this.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

It was the last podcast shoot. Oh, whatever, man. You're making me confused now.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

No, it's okay.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Whatever.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I don't know what I was just

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

trying to basically say, you know, it's good to have, you know, healthy sadness.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah, I'm sad all the time. No, you don't say, you know, speaking of sadness. Jackie, what the hell?

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

What did you say? You gonna say something?

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I was just. We got the Krugers here. Hey. Hey, How y' all doing?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Hey, good to see you all.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I pivoted because I gotta tell a real quick story I've been telling. I told it on the stage, I told it on threads, and I'm gonna tell it here. It ain't. It's actually really powerful.

[Melissa Kruger]

It's the sad story. Yeah, see, I know what you're gonna

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

tell, so I was on it. So me and Melissa, we used to do a podcast together. What was it? You never remember the name. We need to talk.

[Melissa Kruger]

Let's Talk.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Let's talk.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I even remember the name.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

My bad. We used to do a podcast with Jasmine Holmes called let's Talk. And so Melissa's one of my favorite people. Really wise, light, beautiful, theological woman. And we were on the phone about something, and I don't know what we were talking about. We were just talking about the difficulty of the Christian life. And you were saying how somebody asked you how you've endured it or how you have navigated the Christian faith and, like, all the things. And you would expect Melissa's answer to be some deep and like, you know, I just endure by, you know, looking to Christ, who is my kinsman, redeemer, or something.

[Melissa Kruger]

She.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

She was like, yeah, I cry a lot. And I said, that's it. Like that, That's. That's actually a really underrated spiritual discipline. It's just grief. And what that actually does cultivate in us as it relates to, like, being able to stay near to God. So I just, I. That's been a. That been in my pocket ever since we talk.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Cause that's the thing. She came home and told me, and I was like, huh, I cry a lot. Cry a lot. But then the Lord started to show me how healthy it is for us to cry. I even wrote a poem about it.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah. When you look at Jesus, when you look at Jeremiah, when you look at all these people, they had some grief. So thank you for that nugget.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah, well. And you know what I mean. Cause I know we're gonna talk about kids and stuff in a minute. It's also good. My mom, I remember this. This was her piece of advice to me. I had this newborn, and I remember I hated it when she cried. Advice. And I realized it was good advice for a baby, but it was good advice for a 10 year old. It was good advice for a teenager. She was like, babies are going to cry.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's simple.

[Melissa Kruger]

And it's okay. Like, we want to fix it. We want to make them stop crying. And sometimes it's just like, oh, you're a teenager. They just need to cry.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah, that's good.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah. Or whatever. And then adults, we just need to cry.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And Christians.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Anyway, thank y' all for being here. We appreciate they had a real mishap with the flight. Was on that thing for four hours. I don't, you know, I don't know if the devil wanted to make y' all irritated or something. I don't know what that was about. But you came in here full of

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

joy, so we appreciate that.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Because a lot of people came here with an attitude.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I love you, melissa. Love to Dr. Kruger. It's like a real Mike. I don't.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I know. You gotta call me Mike.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's the rule.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

That's the rule of our conversation.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

We talked last time we were together. We did a panel together at the Gospel Coalition. We did, yes.

[Melissa Kruger]

On marriage.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

And I just remember getting critiqued because I had, like, slides on like this on the stage. People like, how dare you get on that stage with slides. I'm like, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be myself.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long are y' all have y' all been married?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Coming up on 29 years.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Wow.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

So 28 years right now. It'll be 29 in July. I better get the month right. I guess I never can. Yeah. I don't. I actually remember our anniversary more than you.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yes. It's. It's a number thing. It's 7, 26, 97. I need it to be 7, 27, 97.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah.

[Melissa Kruger]

I needed. I should have got married on Sunday rather than Saturday because it's.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Would have been cheaper, too.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

It would have been cheaper.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Oh, wow. So, no.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

So it's 20. Well, we'll be 29 years. Yes. We're coming up on the big three zero next year, which we're excited about. We're going to try to take a fun trip somewhere and celebrate.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

What is that like to be married that long?

[Melissa Kruger]

And we dated for five years.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah, we dated for five years before that.

[Melissa Kruger]

I've known him since I was 18. You know, it's like we grew up together.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I think, in some sense, being married for that big a chunk of your life, I mean, you really realize that the reason you're tuned out the way you are is largely because of the person you've been with for so much of your life, you know, and the reason I'm me and not, you know, certainly a lot better version of me than I would have been is because we get to be together and shape each other and love each other over those years. And so, I mean, I think if you get. It's not that getting married later in life is a bad thing. I mean, great. When God brings you a spouse, that's wonderful, but you don't have the backstory of all those years of shaping looks good.

[Melissa Kruger]

I think the best thing is just the contentedness of sitting on the back porch together. I mean, we're, you know, all of us. We travel a lot. We do a lot of stuff. And the thing I think I Love the most is. My favorite place to be is on the back porch with you.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah.

[Melissa Kruger]

And just talking. And he's still the person I want to talk to about things. Like, did you hear this? Yeah. What do you think about this? And, man, I mean, that's. I just am so thankful for that.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

One of the things we're getting to do more in recent years is actually travel together, which is really great because, you know, lots of times we're just. Apparently traveling together is cursed, if you go by today's standards. But, I mean, lots of times we're just off to different places every weekend. We have a funny story we tell years ago when we were traveling places and we were getting our schedule straight, and I told Melissa, I said, hey, just so you know, I'll be in Dallas this weekend. And Melissa's like, you're going to be in Dallas? I'm like, yeah. She goes, well, I'm going to be in Dallas this weekend. And I'm like, no. And, like, you're going to be in Dallas, too. Turns out we were on the same flight. I didn't even realize it. So we both leave Dallas on the same flight, Took Ubers to two different events. Didn't even realize it.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Y' all ask somebody to move so y' all could sit next to one another.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I don't think we were able to sit next to each other. I think the flight was full.

[Melissa Kruger]

I need to work on the flight.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

You probably were. You're probably like, I don't want to talk to you. I got too much to do.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And that's where, you know, there's some trust and longevity, because I feel like there are some younger men where they would feel a type of way about not sharing the same thing or, you know, hey, I gotta work, man. I ain't. I don't. I don't. I can talk to you when we get to the house. Like, to be able to say that freely without it being there being a consequence is.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I ain't gonna lie. A couple times, though, I sat when you was in a different seat. I just waited to see if it was like a creepy person finna sit next to you. Cause I'm like, ah.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I mean, you always tell people to move.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, I always. I'm gonna sit next to my wife.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Gotta get up, bucko.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And you say it kind of aggressively, so it's like. It's not even, like, an option. I do question, how long between getting married, did you have children? And did you have children intentionally?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I think it was about Three years.

[Melissa Kruger]

And it was three years between all of our kids.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah. So apparently the number three is a big factor in our family's planning.

[Melissa Kruger]

Three, three, three.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Okay.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

So we got married, and then it wasn't long until we moved to Scotland because I was doing my PhD there at the University of Edinburgh, and we were trying actively, and we're excited to see what would happen, and we were thrilled to get pregnant that quickly. So. Yeah, it was about three years into our marriage that we had Emma, and she was born in the Royal Infirmary in Edinburgh, Scotland. So that was a crazy experience because obviously, your first child. No one's there. We were born. She was born in a foreign country, and we were completely alone, and there was no phone to text with back then. No one in the United States even knew we had a baby. And we were there alone with her for a long time before. Even.

[Melissa Kruger]

Even though he had to use a calling card, that's how you had to call from the hospital. Like, our cell phones couldn't call at the time. They were just like.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Flip phones.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah, flip phones. And so he. He had to find a calling card to be able to call the States, you know?

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Okay.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah, it's like the Dark Ages.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Is that dang. Like, how old are you guys? Is that what that dang's about? It's like, did they have electricity back then? Yeah, this was late 90s.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

She said the 80s.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Well, I'm saying, why is that a shock? Why is that crazy?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Well, we moved to Scotland in the late 90s.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah. But she was born in 2000.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

She was born in 2000.

[Melissa Kruger]

She was Born in 2000.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Well, 2000 in my mind was yesterday. Until I think about 2001. And everybody thought Jesus was gonna come back.

[Melissa Kruger]

Exactly.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I remember how.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, we was buying crackers and water and sardines.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah. I was at a party and I went in the bathroom at, like, 11:50. I said, Lord, just in case. I don't know. And I didn't know you. I don't know you. Can you. If you come back, can you take me with you?

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I just remember my uncle buying five cases of water. Like, that's really gonna last us.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's ridiculous.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Anywho, get you out of the gate.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

We have written a devotional together called the Good News Family Devotional.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

The Good News.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And it's a 52 week. Am I right? 52 week devotional on the book of Mark.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

52 weeks is diabolical.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Is that a year?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

It's a year.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

How long did it take y'? All to write this.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Well, it took us a while, but we also drew upon some Bible studies he had done before and so that helped.

[Melissa Kruger]

He had taught at RTS where he works for Forum Theological Seminary. He had a women's Bible study. He taught for years with a bunch of women in there. And for over two years you taught the Gospel of Mark. Yeah, so the devotionals are actually pulled from all of that teaching. So he, you know, he had a lot of material already, but he spent two years teaching it

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

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[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Mores.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

You ate a lot of cereal growing up?

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah, I ate it for dinner, lunch, breakfast snacks Magic Spoon Treats different than cereal but just as as good for you. They are crispy, airy, protein packed snack bars with 12 grams of protein, 7 grams of fiber, 0 grams of added sugar and 2 to 3 grams of net carbs. And they too are gluten free. They are good for tossing in your bag, keeping in your car, grabbing in between meetings. Flavors include Marshmallow, Chocolate, Peanut Butter, double Chocolate, Salt caramel, caramel however you say and more. These feel like a treat but they actually function like a protein bar.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Personally, my favorite flavor is the fruity flavor because I've always liked fruity flavors growing up. But I also like that it's packed with protein because you can eat it and then go straight to the gym. You ain't gotta have all the extra stuff.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Look for Magic Spoon on Amazon or at your nearest grocery store. And if you wanna try something new, check out Magic Spoon's Protein pastries. They are packed with protein and taste like the nostalgic toaster pastries you grew up with, but without all the sugar. You can get $5 off your next order including the protein past [e-mail] perry that's magicspoon.com perry for $5 off. What I like about it is like, you know, I've. I haven't seen one a lot of family devotionals, but if I have, it's not through a book of the Bible. And so I guess why Mark? Of all the. We had 65 other options, why that book?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah, it's a great question. So we thought about the idea of doing a family devotional and the importance of that. And what kind of book would be really useful to do with your kids that could put you right in front of the core teachings of the gospel and the person of Christ. And obviously a gospel comes to mind. I mean, what's not to love and enjoy about any of the four gospels? You get to meet Christ, you get to see his teachings, his activities, his death and resurrection. And then it was a matter of then picking which gospel. Part of the reason that Mark was an obvious favorite is because I'd done all this work on Mark that we just talked about. But the other thing is that Mark actually functions as a great family devotional because it's so quick and so to the point. It has this real rapid sort of way it moves through the narrative. Each story is short and containable and it moves along quickly. It doesn't drag. And for a family, that really worked. Now here's the funnest part of the story though, is that Melissa and I were on different pages about which gospel. We had this little intra family debate.

[Melissa Kruger]

Basically. He won.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah, I won the debate, but she was pulling for Tell them which gospel. John. The Gospel of John. Everyone's like, Mark.

[Melissa Kruger]

Why'd you pick Mark's favorite gospel?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yes.

[Melissa Kruger]

Except yours.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I love the underdog gospel. You gotta love the underdog gospel.

[Melissa Kruger]

It's all inspired.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I love that.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

It's all inspired.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah. And I just can't. I mean, maybe going through Matthew with all the parables with kids, that could be. I could see good or bad.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I think the obvious is kind of John, but I think I could see Mark.

[Melissa Kruger]

I have to say, John 1 is tricky if you start, I mean, so Mark gets right into it. I will say, which is nice for kids.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

They love stories.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

It's a great story.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

It's very story centric. And so there's teachings of Jesus in Mark, but they're not really long extended teaching blocks in Mark. And so you can kind of get lost in a long teaching block with a kid. But they really grab a story that has a short teaching at the end. And we found that to be really useful and they really grab a hold of it.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I love that. I got a question. You want to Go.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

There you go.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

One of the interesting ways or the way you structured it, which I think is helpful, is that you have like, observations and questions and approaches for younger children and for older children, which I think is. I think we feel that because our kids are 11, 7, 5, 4. So with Eden, she's kind of moving into this range where she can handle more, I guess not lofty, but heavier subject matters. But then you got Sage in August where it's like, God is real. That's all we got. And so I guess even in your experience, tell us how many children you have, their ages, but also that process of how y' all learn to navigate, teaching them when they were younger and teaching them when they were older. So that, like, people who have kids in different stages know how to approach discipleship according to ages.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah, that's right. So our kids now are 25, 22, and 19. You know, I still think when I meet people that age that I'm like five years older than them. So it's always shocking when you're like, oh, you're my daughter's age. Okay, okay. But so we kind of had arranged, there's a six year spread and we faced that same thing. We'd have a 12 year old at the table and a 6 year old at the table. And so that was actually part of what I was trying to do is how can you study the Bible together as a family and yet have different ranges? And so my background is education. And so one thing I know about younger kids is they need really concrete questions. Well, you know, in our lingo, we call those observation questions. You know, if you're looking at observation, interpretation, application. And so kids can actually listen to a story and be like, oh, okay. And you can even tell them beforehand, hey, I'm getting ready to read the story. I want you to be listening. Where did it take place? You know, who's in the story? And then afterwards, you know, you can say, hey, who was in this story? Who are some of the names? Did anybody remember who are the names? And doing that kind of interaction with them. Well, there are a couple things I love. One, it gets them talking rather than you talking, but it helps them engage and listen in a different way. So if you give them a little prompt beforehand, then they're like, oh, I'm supposed to be paying attention. Well, that's just helpful anyway. And then with the older kids, it can be a little bit more, okay, well, so why do you think Jesus got so upset when Peter, you know, said, you know, you're not gonna go to the cross. Basically, that whole interaction. Why did Jesus rebuke Peter? You can ask the why question more, the interpretive questions with an 11 year old. And then we put a family application question and why we did that was they need to see I'm growing. It's for everybody.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's good.

[Melissa Kruger]

Like, who do I, you know, how does mom need to obey differently? How does dad need to obey differently? Like, we're still learning too. And so it's kind of teaching them that basic observation, interpretation, application, but also giving it age appropriately so that they can. Everybody gets to answer.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's great.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's really good. I have a question. So you guys have multiple kids, like we do, right? And we know that every kid is not the same. They all are different. And so, like the way this one thinks is not the way that this one thinks. The way this one processes is not the way this one processes.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Cause this is the way you could talk to Eden and she's locked in. Autumn is like, come back here, come back to Earth. She think about unicorn somewhere.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yes.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

And so oftentimes I find myself having really sometimes great apologetic conversations from my daughter Eden. She's very thoughtful. And then sometimes I'd be like, oh, I didn't actually pour into my other daughter today. And so what is the balance of adjusting to each child and how they're made differently? What is the balance? And also this temptation not to leave one behind or like, I'm pretty sure some kids can be lost in some families and so talk about that.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah, I mean, one thing to remember and all that, and those are really great questions, is that when we think about how we disciple our children, the family devotional is not the only thing we're doing right. So the first thing to remember is that that's one part. It's a key part of what we're doing, but not the only thing we're doing. So when we worry about leaving a child behind, it's not necessarily all having to be solved in that one study, but one of the things that I found over the years and that we found together over the years is that the different learning styles of the kids actually feeds one another horizontally. In other words, it's not just that the kids are learning from us, they're actually learning from each other. And the way they respond differently and the way they engage a text differently, the other children will listen to them maybe in ways they don't listen to us, and they'll resonate with things. They observe that even that they may not even resonate if we were to say the same thing. And so one of the big takeaways we've seen over many years of doing this with our kids is how. How it's bound them together. It's really made them a tight unit. Now, of course, their friendships and their relationships are bigger than just that. We did family devotionals together. We're not suggesting that's the whole thing, but we really think that spiritually, they're really, really united because they spent time studying God's word as a unit. And there's something different about studying God's word as a unit, as a group than doing it independently and in isolation. And I think that's really the key thing you're taking away is, of course, if you do it in a group, you're not gonna be able to meet every individual need. But, you know, it's not always bad to not meet every individual needs. Sometimes it's good for people to absorb to the group and respond to the group and realize that it's not only just about their individual needs.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's really good. And that's actually very.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah, that's great.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Excellent. Yeah. Because I think also, too, it's like church.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Well, it is. It's like a little picture of church. Why do we go to church? Why? Don't get anything out of it. Well, okay. You may not get anything out of it, but you realize you're there for more than that. You're there for. You're trying to give as well as gat when you go.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, that's good. Because I think one thing I've noticed, our children, they have their own relationships with one. And so the things that I kind of pour into Eden. I think Eden has her own unique ways of kind of passing what I pour down to her daughter. I mean, to her sister, which is a great observation. I didn't really notice that.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah. I think a learning curve for us is that we were not raised in Christian homes. And so it seems as if we are trying to create traditions and rhythms and patterns that we didn't see. And so, like, for me, sometimes I feel lost. Like, how do I do this? Like, I know how to disciple people that are 20 and up. I don't know how to disciple as well. I don't know how to be as consistent when it comes to these kids. When I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to make sure y' all stop fighting. I'm just trying to make sure you got your homework. I'm just trying to make sure it was pajama day for one of y'. All. Another one of y' all got a science project. I'm actually, actually thinking about all the other stuff that sometimes I miss Jesus in a way.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

And I'm trying to stop my son from jumping down 14 flights.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah, I'm trying to keep you alive.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah. You're in survival mode.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And so the whole rhythm stuff. The rhythm stuff is. Is something. So I guess. Did y' all learn this growing up or was this something that y' all just developed as a family unit when y' all got Marri.

[Melissa Kruger]

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[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

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[Melissa Kruger]

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[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

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[Melissa Kruger]

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[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

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[Melissa Kruger]

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[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah, we both grew up in churchgoing homes, so. And we're so thankful for that, but we did not. Neither of us grew up in a home that did family devotions or really studied the Bible together as a family. So we kind of felt the same way. We knew we wanted to do this, but we were like, how do you do this? You know, what do you do? And so, honestly, when they were little, you would just read one of the storybook Bibles or something with the kids and talk with them about it. And that was just a daily. Like, you're reading books with your kids doing that. And then when the kids got in elementary school is when we started doing family devotions in the morning. And I want to say, this was so far from perfect. I mean, it was like 10 minutes. But here's my biggest parenting secret is kids only know the house they grow up in. Like, they don't know. It's weird that you're spending 10 minutes talking about Jesus at the breakfast table and opening your Bibles. They just know that that's what your family does. So that was kind of My. Oh, well, we can just make. We can make our family normal. Whatever. We wanna make our family normal. And so we would meet and we would read a passage and we'd pray for each other. And I look back and I think about those prayers for each other, them learning to do that every day of the week. Cause we had five. So, like, on Monday, we might pray for Kate On Tuesday, we might pray for Emma on Wednesday, we might pray for mom on Thursday. And we prayed for each member, but somebody else around the table prayed for them. And so just those little habits. You realize you're building community just by doing what God asks you to do. And that binds you. Because you know, a kid, if you say, hey, how are you doing? They might grunt at you. Especially as they get older. I just prepare for the boy grunting. Like that's what they kind of speak at that age.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

It's grunt language.

[Melissa Kruger]

It is. I was like, I don't speak grunt. John. Could you, like, use words?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Articulate me? Yeah.

[Melissa Kruger]

But when you ask, hey, how can I pray for you this week? They do share. And you get more in those moments than you really start to hear a little bit about how they're doing or they're worried about a friend or, you know, whatever. And so I look back and I'm like, oh, these were really, really sweet times together as a family.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's dope.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Was there a reason for. I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

No, I was just going to say one of the things about sort of feeling like I don't know how to do this, which is, I think, what everyone feels, and I think we felt that too. There's, I think, an instinct in a lot of people that think, well, if I'm going to have a family devotion, well, I should just go all the way and make it the greatest family devotion that there's ever been. And I'm going to make it a little church service, and I'm going to study all week and prepare a message. We're going to make this really wonderful. And the analogy I give is, like, is when someone decides they want to start getting more fit and working out, what do they do? They always try to bite off more than they can chew. Right. So they're like, well, I'm going to go and I'm going to run five miles a day, and I'm going to work out at the gym. Never lasts because they've just tried to push it too far. And so what I always tell people is, if you're going to start a family devotional, Keep it really simple and achievable. Those are the two words I like to use, simple and achievable. So that you're like, I can do this reasonably every day because it's not trying to do everything.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, that's good.

[Melissa Kruger]

And I think the way. Okay, so the devotional on this one is actually set up for the parent. So it's based on Deuteronomy 6. We didn't see anything like this out there which says, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength. And then it says these commands are to be on your heart. Teach them to your children. So the devotional is actually kind of like devotional commentary. He wrote it, but he wrote it for normal people. And so it's the cause I think a lot of times as parents we feel like, well, what if they ask me a question I don't know how to answer? You know, because kids, you know, when

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

you're teaching, they got angles.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah. When you're teaching you get to just say what you want to say. And you're like, I might miss that part about why he got so mad about the fig tree. You know, but like, kids are going to be like, well, did Jesus have a temper tantrum with the fig tree? You know, they're going to ask those type of questions. And so we're trying to create a resource that actually makes a parent feel like, well, I know a little bit about what's, what's going on, maybe more so that's helpful. But then, and we really want just the kids to start talking like, so that the parent doesn't feel like, okay, I'm gonna tell you for five minutes something about Jesus. It's the Word's gonna tell em and then we're gonna talk about it as a family. And that just lowers the pressure like rather than us feeling like we have to have all the answers or know everything, it's a little more like, hey, we're learning alongside you. But God's word is what we want you to know. And you know, the only way you learn language is by speaking it. Like when you have little kids, you talk to em even though they can't understand you. So you know, your youngest kids will be sitting at the table, they might get half of it, maybe they'll get a quarter of it. That's okay. That's how you learn. You know, you pick it up as you go and then all of a sudden it's 15 years later. And you know a lot of Bible stories.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's good.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I Got a real practical question real, real quick, which is, why did y' all pick the morning? Cause I think in the morning, I'm like, I'm tired. I got to get y' all dressed, get y' all fed, get y up out of here. Why was morning best for y'? All? Rhythm.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

It used to be at night.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Okay.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

And it used to be right before they went to bed. And that worked for a while when all the kids went to bed at about the same time. But once the older one got older and had soccer practice activities. Activities.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That makes sense.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Then it sort of split up the moment, and we decided that we had to pivot and move it to the mornings. Believe me, and Melissa can attest to this, I am not a morning person. I do not like mornings.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Wow.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

And we had to do it this morning. We got up really early this morning. So I, you know, I didn't want to have devotionals in the morning, but it's kind of like one of those things. You're like, well, if not now, then it won't happen. And so we decided that we were going to do it in the mornings now because we did it in the mornings. We had to. Had to follow my. My own advice there. Had to be simple and achievable.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Because you're not going to get kids out of bed 45 minutes earlier than they have to be.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

For something like that.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's good.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

You guys now are empty nesters.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Oh, that word. I feel so old. Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

You guys, like, have just seen your kids in every stage of life almost. Right. You have a child in the 20s.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

A 19 year old.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah, 19, 22 and 25.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

And what I hear, though, when you guys are talking, I hear, like, labor. Like you guys labored. And a lot of long hours. All of these hours kind of accumulated over the years. I guess my question is, what are the benefits? Like, what are the fruit that you saw that produced in your children with all of these mornings that you were tired? Because it could be encouraging to young kids, people with young kids now it's like, okay, I hope this produces some fruit.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I think that's really the heartbeat behind why we even wrote this book is because I think we were shocked, shocked at the fruit of faithful regular time in the Bible as a family. We thought, okay, I know I should do this. And of course, we believed that it would do good things in general, but I don't think we really apprehended what it would do. And the fruit has been amazing. And I don't Think it's amazing merely because we're so excited about where our kids are spiritually. But we are excited where they are spiritually. But just watching how they're grown theologically and how their understanding of the Bible works, how their instincts are driven by scripture in a way that we just look back and they're so thankful. So it just set a trajectory that's really been life changing.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's good.

[Melissa Kruger]

It's unbelievable to me. Our oldest is on the mission field and she's in a predominantly Muslim nation. And I realized she just knows stuff. And it just, you know, it's like she just marinated in it so long. And our 19 year old is at a large public university. College. University. Every Friday she goes up on the main street with her roommate and she does street evangelism.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

You got a bunch of evangelism.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I love it.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah.

[Melissa Kruger]

And I'm just sitting there and I'm like, okay. I mean, but what she'll say is she was kind of surprised. She was like, mom, I actually know how to answer people.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's good.

[Melissa Kruger]

And you know, we so think, I think we felt a little bit like, are we going to be too much for these children? And is it just. I almost had a negative view of. This is gonna sound terrible of Christians growing kids growing up in a Christian home. Because I kind of came to faith apart from my family. And so I became a Christian through a high school ministry and I felt like it was my own. And I almost grew more in that way because my faith had become my own. And so I was like, is this gonna just make the kids hate this stuff? Well, and some kids do, you know, the Lord's gotta save our children. We always wanna say aren't saved through or parenting. They're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, you know, Ephesians. But what I would say is if the Spirit's at work in their life and they become Christians, what an inheritance they have. Think about it. If you had been learning little verses all your childhood. It's just in there.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's beautiful.

[Melissa Kruger]

So if the Spirit awakens their heart, they've got riches galore. Just because of all these 10 minute little things you tried to do imperfectly along the way. Way. But all of those years add up.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I got one quick, quick question because I'm, I'm just intrigued by what you said when, when your daughter said, I know how to answer people. I, I love that as an evangelist because I love evangelism. But one of the reasons why I love that I do A lot of, like, apologetic and evangelism conferences. And one thing that I've noticed is that a lot of sometimes mothers, sometimes fathers come there looking for answers for their children who left the nest, went to college, and got rocked by a different ideology or a different worldview. And sometimes it can seem like the Christian faith. A lot of people in the Christian faith, they have like this reactionary faith that says, let me try to look for resources when our kid stumbles upon a false truth. And so what was the process of developing, I think, good thinkers?

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Oh, yeah, you're great at this.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

This has been a passion of mine for a long time.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Talk about it.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I'm glad to hear you say that because this is something that's been on my heart for years. And this actually is related to a different book, one that I wrote a number of years ago called Surviving Religion 101, which was a book for college students on how to navigate the complexities of intellectual challenges they would face in college. And I wrote that for my daughter Emma when she was headed off to be at a big university. And so I wrote this book. It's actually a compose of letters to her about how to keep your intellectual and sort of worldview intact while you're at a big university. But here's what I realized as I wrote it is that even though the college students were using it and being blessed by it, and I was so excited for that, the people who were coming up to me the most were parents. And they were like, hey, I gave that to my kids kid for, for at college. And that's great. But I realized that I've got these younger kids still that are coming up through the ranks. How do I prepare them so that when they get out of the house, they're ready for this? In other words, let's dial it back. Let's. Let's not wait till they're 18 to give them a resource.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Let's.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Let's start working on this earlier.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

And that's good.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

So one of the things we did in our house, and this is just something I love to do, is I would play skeptic with my kids. So I would be. I would. I would put on the hat of non Christian professor, and I would start. Start making claims and, and challenging what they believe and poking holes in Christianity. And I would, I would, I would say, okay, what would you say to that?

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I love that. On.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

We'd have debates around the table where I would be the skeptical professor and they would be.

[Melissa Kruger]

He would be a really bad non Christian yes, exactly.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

My kids one time said, dad, you make a really good non Christian. I'm like, I don't know what I think about that.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

That's not good.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

So.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

But we would do it in car rides and I would do it around the dinner table and I would just sort of challenge them and say, well, what would you say about that? And they would say this. I was like, well, that doesn't work because it's this. And we just go around and around, around. And it got them to sort of own it. They couldn't just be a faith where you can repeat back a catechism. Although I think there's usefulness to that. It had to be a, A faith that you could think on your feet and actually deal with the kind of.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I love that. Yeah, that's really dope.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah.

[Melissa Kruger]

And one of.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I found myself, I could see myself doing that.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

You could totally. You, you would be great at that.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I know, but I do, I, I kind of do it with my 11 year old. She's really fun to talk to.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

But I, you know, I want to, as my kids get older. My son is 4. I can't really do it with him

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

right now, but yeah, it's actually been in my heart to do that.

[Melissa Kruger]

I think everybody, you know, gets so negative about the teen years. It's actually really preferred a little bit.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Jackie said that a lot. She's like, I feel like they're gonna be more friends, like.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Cause I don't really wanna talk to you about Bluey for too long. You understand what I'm saying? Like, I just, I don't know how to engage that, that with excitement for too much time.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, my son thinks he's Spider Man. He like, he is real cute.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

But yeah, I don't know. I think what I love about that is that I've always seen that what you did, me and Preston doing that just because in our experience with people that go to college or like the universities that we speak to, it's like they get to school and they lose their mind. And I'm like, oh, y' all never knew that there were other worldviews outside of the ones that you were probably raised in. I've always felt like, I don't know if I told you this. My plan is that when they get in high school to read certain secular books and they gotta write a paper about it, whether that's sexuality, whether that's agnosticism, whether that's like black Hebrew Israel, I don't care what it is, it's like, I want you to be aware of what you're going to face when you get out in the world. You know what I'm saying? Because I just. Some of the stuff is legitimate and some of the stuff is like, like convincingly legitimate. You know what I'm saying?

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Cause I've been thinking about my children a lot because I've been going to Alabama State University and talking to and doing Q&As with the crowd this year. And just some of the questions I'm getting, I'm like, yo, like, why are y' all being rocked by these? You know? And so like, if we can start helping our children think early, I think it can be really, really great.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Here's an analogy you guys might love in this regard. Years ago I came across this book from a microbiologist and it caught eye because of the title. And the book's title was called Dirt is Good. And his argument, which is about an unrelated subject, but it fits the bill as an analogy, is that the reason kids immune systems can be so bad and not kicked in is because their parents had protected them from germs for so long when they grew up using hand sanitizers and special soaps and keeping them from ever getting any diseases. By the time they turn 16, they've never been sick a day in their life. And it turns out they get sick and they get really badly sick because they never had their immune system kicked in because they never had germs along the way. And I use that as a spiritual analogy, is as parents, we've got to expose our kids to these non Christian worldviews in small doses, so to speak, so they can be inoculated.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's a really great analogy. Gotta catch Kobe one so it won't kill you in the second.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Yeah, don't bubble up, you know, and you think you're doing your kid a favor if he's never heard of a non Christian before he's turned 18 and you're not. You need to give him some insights or her some insights on what to expect.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Wow.

[Melissa Kruger]

And when you have those conversations, this was the most fun thing just last week. Our daughter is coming back. They, you know, in college you all take, they all drive to the beach. This is North Carolina because we're close to the beach. So they've driven for the day at the beach, they're in their car and there are five college kids and they're talking about evolution and they're talking about, I don't know, all the different topics.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Speaking in tongues all kinds of stuff.

[Melissa Kruger]

And so she's like, hey, let's call my dad and ask him. I can't tell you. I mean, like, of all the things like, oh, you want to call your dad and ask him? And I really believe.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I mean, my daddy was Professor Krueger, too. I call my daddy, too. I FaceTime you every day.

[Melissa Kruger]

But, you know, you think, oh, but I really think you fostered such good conversations. Not forcing answers, but fostering conversations, you know? Cause if you just always say the answer, they're going to stop talking to you.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah.

[Melissa Kruger]

Rather than like, no, let's dig in together.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That teaches him how to think, though.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

It does teach him how to think.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

You mentioned Deuteronomy 6, and I just want to read it with a question starting at verse four. It says, hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you shall today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently. Let's hold that word in our mind to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk, by the way, when you lie down and when you rise, you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorpost of your house and on your gates. I bring out the word diligently because how did y' all develop the discipline to disciple when you're tired? And not even just tired with life, but tired. You might have something going on in your marriage. You might have something going on with your job. You might be wrestling with some mental stuff. You might be. You know what I'm saying? Like, and it can become easy to lay that to the side in light of what you're going through.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Well, I mean, one thing I'll add. I know Melissa's got things to add, too. Is that a reminder that part of creating this culture in your home is not solely on the devotional time. The devotional time is what you might call the anchor for it. But as the passage you just read indicated, you're kind of always teaching your children in life when you're standing, when you're rising, when you're walking, when you're going knowing. And so I would encourage parents to realize that, you know, don't, don't. Don't hinge everything on this. Realize there's a bigger system of how they're going to learn from your example, from the way you interact with people in. In the world on a daily basis, that's going to help sort of deal with some of these things. So in that sense, you know, sometimes you can feel like if I miss a family devotional, I'm. My family's doomed, you know, or something like that. I'm like, well, no, it's bigger than that. And there's more to be said than that. But then, in fact, in terms of speaking about how we keep going on the family devotionals, I'll let Melissa say a word about that.

[Melissa Kruger]

I might give three P's.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Oh, my. You're pulling out alliteration.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I don't care.

[Melissa Kruger]

I am.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Come on. Teacher Melissa.

[Melissa Kruger]

I think place a plan and a pattern. And here's those things actually help you when you're tired. Because it was every morning in the same place at the kitchen table. The kids were just there. And so it wasn't like I had to drum it up. It's kind of just what the ha. It was the habit. And then having a plan for. For what you do that just makes it that much easier when you're tired. Because here's the reality.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

You don't make it up every time.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Brand new. Yeah.

[Melissa Kruger]

Yeah. And then it just becomes such the pattern that kids just expect. This is what we do on Monday morning or whatever. Like, I remember we were on vacation one time and we were on vacation, so we weren't necessarily gonna go to church that Sunday. We advocate going to church on Sunday. And our kids were like, what do you mean? Mean we gotta go to church. It was such the pattern that they actually were taking us to church. And so I think sometimes the habits become the very helps that we need when we're tired.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's good. Yeah.

[Melissa Kruger]

You know, they pull us along, but it is the hard part. It's just like exercise. It's beginning. But I will just challenge our, like, culturally. We are getting our kids to soccer practice. We are getting our kids to dance practice. We're getting our kids to later on to all these things. And so sometimes we may have to also. I'll give another P word. We may have to purge. We may have to get rid of something. And I did not have any of those in my mind. We may have to get rid of something so that we can make it happen. But at some point, every family has got to say, what is this family going to be about?

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, that's good.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I'm thinking about. About the single parent.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Wow.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And how you. Because I mean, that could, it's, it's a little bit easier because we're sharing a good burden. Right. Like, and we're, we're both able to like manage and steward the home together. But I'm thinking about the woman or the man who is taking care of children by themselves and working and doing all the things and now saying like, ah, I got a disciple too. And it's like, I guess what would be encouragement to them.

[Melissa Kruger]

My biggest encouragement is Timothy. You know, I mean, when Paul writes the second letter to Timothy, he said, you know, the faith that lived in your mom and your grandma. The dad's not mentioned. We don't know what his story was, but just that encouragement that, that a single parent can really have a lot of power to pass on faith from one generation to the next. And he says you've known the Holy Scriptures since infancy. Well, it must have been his mom who was teaching those. And then that became Timothy who became this great disciple of Paul. And so I think just be encouraged the Word and the Spirit again, that's how the Lord's going to make your child wise for salvation. And I think a lot of prayer.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's great.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah. I also just want to add too, because I grew up with a single mom who didn't necessarily raise me in church, but because she knew she couldn't give me a lot, she made sure she always tried to put me around godly men. And I think that's what the role of the church, local church kind of comes in.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

That's a great point. I was going to say that, which is that you've got to utilize the tool, tools available to you that might be outside the home and make sure you put your child in a place where they can find a mentor, find a voice that adds to you. The other thing that's interesting too, you mentioned single parents, but there's also people who are married to people who aren't Christians. So they effectively are single parents as it pertains to raising your kids as Christians. Even though they're actually married, their spouse doesn't share their faith. And that actually may be what's going on with Timothy's mother and grand. Because we have a lot of evidence from the ancient world that women converted to Christianity in great numbers in the early stages and lots of times their husbands did not. And so you have a lot of mixed marriages in these early stages, interestingly, where you have a lot of women who are converted but the husbands aren't and they have to raise their kids following Christ. And Timothy is the Poster child for that.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Wow.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah. I feel like we were part of a conference one time, and somebody from the Q and A asked that question about how they would teach their child something and then Daddy would contradict it. And just that constant wrestle of like, what do I.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

That's hard.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

What do I do with that? Have y' all ever counseled somebody with that?

[Melissa Kruger]

That's hard.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

I don't know if I've ever had a person that I've tried to counsel about that, but I certainly know of many cases like that. And these mixed marriages are really hard. Sometimes the unbelieving spouse just sort of lets it be so they don't sort of get in the way of it. Right. Because they're not. They're not. They don't really care about religion. Do what you want. But then other times, they do what you just described, which is they're actively opposing what you're to your child, and the child is in a tug of war, theological and practical tug of war, with. With. With the parents. That is just really, really difficult. And that's going to take a lot of prayer, a lot of perseverance for. For a single parent, effectively a single parent, to. To work their way through that.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Wow. Yeah. I think that's when your character shines.

[Melissa Kruger]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

You know what I'm saying?

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Where it's like, I want to live up to or live out everything that I'm communicating in such a way that it actually reveals that what I'm saying is true. True. You know, I think there's some. Some power in that dope. We got a question yesterday on Instagram, and we've kind of answered it, but we haven't answered. It's really simple. But, like, how do you start giving the gospel to toddlers?

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

That's interesting. I. I think, you know, one of the things we learn as parents, and you guys have learned this too, and anybody who's a parent knows this, is that kids pick up things a lot quicker than you think they do. Yeah. So the term toddler is a vague term. I mean, what exactly counts as a toddler, somewhere between one and four probably, is the general age that people consider a child to be a toddler of some sort. Four is probably way on the upper end of that. But kids can really pick up a lot more than we know. And I don't mean just intellectually, but they pick up intangibles. They pick up a family vibe, a family feel. They also pick up the parental example. And so lots of times we tell people it's not even just what we say and teach our kids from the Bible. That is the most influen them. It's actually our example is the most influential on them. They're going to end up looking like us, which is scary. And we tend to think our kids don't pay attention, don't listen, don't watch. They really don't want to be anything like mom and dad. On one level that's true. But also studies have shown. On the level that's not true, they actually try to emulate you in ways that are not surprising. And toddlers are really good at emulating their parents. You can see them follow dad around the room or mom around the room, trying to look and act like them. So one thing I would just say is that don't be discouraged by thinking they're not picking up on anything. They're actually probably more perceptive than you realize.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah, that's good.

[Melissa Kruger]

I would also say have rules, and this is gonna be surprising. How do you teach grace? How do you teach the gospel? Well, the law came first so that we might understand our inability to keep it and our actual need for grace. So I think sometimes people think, oh, a gracious home. That means they're, you know, we don't have rules, we don't have standards.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Let's see how that goes.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah. Ye.

[Melissa Kruger]

I mean, it's actually okay to have a standard. But then when the standard's broken, how do we walk them through that?

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's great.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

That's good.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's excellent.

[Melissa Kruger]

You know, and so, I mean, I would say one of the biggest discipleship things is how do you say you're sorry and how do parents say they're sorry to their kids and all of those things? But. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Jen Wilken, I don't know when she said this, but it's been a framework for me where she's like, when your kids are young, it's high frequency, low, low depth. The older they get, it's high depth, low frequency. And so that's just kind of eased my attention when it comes to. Yeah, it ain't got to be that deep. You know what I'm saying? And one example is I was telling the person this the other day.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Sage, I was just about to ask you that question.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Talk about it.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah. Because I don't remember what she said. I was like, I just wanted to ask you, what did Sage say?

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

So the other day, Sage, she just woke up. She's been randomly talking about the Lord.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And she old, is she?

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Five.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Five.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And so she, she was trying to do something or whatever. And I was like, we should just pray about it. And she was like, I don't want to pray. God doesn't answer my prayers. I was like, what do you mean he doesn't answer you? And I'm like, this is already deep to me. I'm like, what do you mean he doesn't answer your prayers? And she said during nap time, I couldn't go to sleep. And I asked him to help me go to sleep, and he didn't let me go to. He didn't make me go to sleep. So he doesn't answer my prayers.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Wow.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

And I said, it's good. I said, well, you know, when you ask me something, I. Some I say no sometimes. And she was like, yes. I said, so sometimes God says no, but that's also an answer. And she was like, okay. But it was like, but it's, it's engaging her world, but also communicating a truth that even adults don't understand is, is that God can say no. And we not even dealing with the fact that you probably, you got adhd, ADHD tendencies from your daddy, and so that's why you can't go to sleep. But I think that's kind of just been a rhythm, I think, in our life is me like, engaging them where they are. But even for her to have a conception of prayer, a concept of God, is her picking up on us in church and us talking about the Lord and us praying, you know what I'm saying? Like, for her to even pray during nap time, I was just like, oh, I ain't never told you to do that.

[Melissa Kruger]

And what a grace to have that answer for. Because you're right, there are a lot of adults walking around saying, yeah, I'm not praying because God doesn't answer my prayer. And here she is at 5 learning a deep truth that she's gonna actually take all of her life. She will remember that.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I hope so.

[Melissa Kruger]

She will. And it's. That's good, you know, and so it's this, but that's that along the way.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Yeah, it's.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Parents are the first theologians your kids will ever meet. And the issue is, you know, are they intact? Are they in contact with a good theologian or not? Right. And the better theologians we can be, the better biblical reasoners we can be. I mean, our kids are going to really be blessed by that. So what a great answer you were able to give her.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That came off the hip. It's 6:45. I don't know what to say.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

God answered you. It was no, bucko. Try to go to sleep.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Such a good question.

[Melissa Kruger]

It's a deep theological question.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Our kids always, all three of them ask really good questions. And our joke around the house is they're actually pretty. Pretty unimpressed with my answers for most of the time.

[Melissa Kruger]

Super unimpressed.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

They might think, dad, aren't you a Bible scholar? Aren't you a professor? And I'm like, well, yeah. And they're like, that wasn't good. The answer's not living up to the hype.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

That's funny.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

So I feel like I'm a perpetual disappointment to them in terms of these complex questions. Wow. These kids ask tough ones.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

They do. And this is fascinating, but we are thankful that y' all have created a resource from lived experience for us to just be able to create homes where Jesus is central, you know? And so I just.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I don't know.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I'm just. I'm thankful. I've been challenged. I've been encouraged.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I've been super challenged by this conversations to have. Absolutely.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

We got to get the book, sit at the table, start going through Mark. You know what I'm saying? I don't want to go through John. Well, I love John, but I don't know how to respect cosmology.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

I love John.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

I don't want to go there.

[Melissa Kruger]

The I am statement.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

Maybe our next one could be on John.

[Melissa Kruger]

I know.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

No, it should be make. Make it 30 days.

[Co-host (possibly Sage Perry)]

Stick with the synoptic gossips now.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Well, thank you, Kruegers.

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

We.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

We love y' all and we appreciate you.

[Melissa Kruger]

Thanks for having us.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Bye, y'. All. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hob thank you for listening. Now go with Go.

[Melissa Kruger]

Stitch Fix. Stop shopping. Get styled a plus on the outfit. Ms. Turner, you are about to slay parent teacher conferences.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Oh, these just the most perfect fitting jeans my stylist sent me.

[Melissa Kruger]

Oh, hello, you who didn't set one

[Dr. Michael Kruger]

foot in a mall and still looks amazing.

[Melissa Kruger]

Just share your size, style, and budget and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. Stitch Fix, get started today@stitch fix.com to my stylist. This look is dedicated to you.

[Host (possibly Jackie Perry)]

Thank you.

[Melissa Kruger]

Thank you.