Jackie Perry (2:10)

And so basically what you're trying to say, people be singing that song with you and not really realizing they are in for sure.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (2:16)

They definitely because who wants to be

Jackie Perry (2:17)

saints and yeah yeah.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (2:19)

You know something else. Thinking about this really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really random. Really, really random. But we were watching something the other day where some somebody's house. Did you take the dog out?

Jackie Perry (2:29)

I did.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (2:30)

Okay.

Jackie Perry (2:31)

We he tweaking.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (2:32)

We was watching something the other day with somebody's breaking to somebody else. I was Like, I don't know if you ever told that story. We don't have time for you to tell the story, but one day we going to tell the story again about how Preston broke into that man house and how that man was there.

Jackie Perry (2:43)

Yeah, yeah. Story time with Preston Perry. I was doing some. A lot of crazy things.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (2:47)

But the Lord redeemed you, and now you worship just like Tripley, huh?

Tripp Lee (2:52)

Hey, I like that. I like that scene.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (2:54)

You're so light skinned.

Tripp Lee (2:55)

I know. God made me like, no.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (2:58)

Are you biracial?

Tripp Lee (2:58)

I really look like this? What happened?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (3:00)

Who's white in your family? Somebody's white.

Tripp Lee (3:03)

I. I've never met them. Now I am. Now, look, I know black people always say this, but this is real. I have receipts.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (3:12)

Okay.

Tripp Lee (3:12)

I am 18 Cherokee.

Jackie Perry (3:15)

Okay.

Tripp Lee (3:16)

My grandmother was half Cherokee.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (3:18)

You are a little red.

Tripp Lee (3:19)

Yeah, my grandmother's half Cherokee. High cheekbones, no beard. See, that checks out.

Jackie Perry (3:23)

Jackie just be saying the darnest things.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (3:26)

No, the lighter you are. I'm like, you got some white up in there instantly.

Tripp Lee (3:30)

I haven't met them. They hiding. I ain't met them. Anyway, I would like to at some point, maybe when we're done, hear this story about you breaking in somebody's house in Nate Earth. Because I was engaged by that. I did feel like I was just sitting at y' all in the living room for a second. I thought I was just watching the podcast.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (3:45)

I feel like he's told it, but I just kind of. I think we got new people that haven't heard it.

Jackie Perry (3:49)

You want me to tell it now?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (3:51)

We have a guess. It's up to. Up to the gas.

Jackie Perry (3:53)

You want to hear it?

Tripp Lee (3:54)

I would love to hear. I don't have to be on the podcast. Up to y'.

Jackie Perry (3:56)

All.

Tripp Lee (3:57)

I'm a guest afterwards.

Jackie Perry (3:58)

I'll tell it afterwards.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (3:59)

I'll tell y' all next week. How's that?

Jackie Perry (4:01)

Yep.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (4:01)

Okay. Trip Lee. Well, you got a new album coming out. What's the name of your album?

Tripp Lee (4:06)

For your glory.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (4:07)

Okay.

Tripp Lee (4:08)

Brag. Worship is the umbrella for the worship stuff I'm doing. And the title of the album is for your glory.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (4:14)

Are you singing a little bit.

Tripp Lee (4:18)

Not mostly, though. So on a couple songs, I am.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (4:21)

Okay.

Tripp Lee (4:21)

Cause there were a couple demos where people were like, nah. Because my goal was like, I'm just Kirk Franklin. This without being a generational. You gonna be the heads of King Genius. But I'm like, I'm gonna. I'm going to write, produce these songs, and then I'm going to just get people to sing them Because I don't want people being able to see them in a worship space to be limited by my limited vocals. But it was a few of them that people were like, nah, you got to stay on this one. So it's a couple.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (4:46)

Most of y' all know Tripp as an author, a pastor. I don't know if you're pastoring now.

Tripp Lee (4:52)

I'm not pastoring now. Yeah.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (4:54)

Pastoral gifting, Bible teacher and rapper. This seems new for you to be venturing into the work.

Jackie Perry (5:03)

Speaking of rapper, I wanna just quickly say, I told y' all this before the podcast started. I wanna say it in real time. Our first out of show show with one another as friends.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (5:15)

Out of town.

Jackie Perry (5:15)

Out of town show that wasn't in LA or Chicago, was in Ohio at a Trip Lee concert.

Tripp Lee (5:22)

Oh, what?

Jackie Perry (5:24)

And this had to be.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (5:24)

We were openers.

Jackie Perry (5:26)

Yeah. So, like, no, I wasn't actually.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (5:27)

I think I was a porter.

Jackie Perry (5:28)

No, you know, we were openers. Like, so. So I tell people all the time, when we first started off, when we first started off with spoken word poetry, especially in those early days when our poems went viral, people didn't know how to place us. And we came, like, second fiddle to the Christian raptors. So, like, people would literally book us just for y' all breathing room. Like.

Tripp Lee (5:50)

Like, you.

Jackie Perry (5:51)

You needed, like, space. And Thor pulled up there.

Tripp Lee (5:54)

That's funny.

Jackie Perry (5:55)

And that was the first time I met you. That had to be, like, 2011, dang, a long time ago. And you was just real quiet. And they told me, like, you're introverted. So I was like, all right, I ain't gonna talk to him. And so I got to know you.

Tripp Lee (6:06)

If I gave off, don't talk to me energy, I apologize.

Jackie Perry (6:08)

Nah, it's all good. Throughout the years, I got to know you. You know what I'm saying? And, like, you just like my wife. Y' all are. Y'.

Tripp Lee (6:13)

All.

Jackie Perry (6:13)

Y'.

Tripp Lee (6:14)

All.

Jackie Perry (6:14)

Y' all personalities are like. But yeah, I remember that. It was like the first out of town show me and Jackie had together.

Tripp Lee (6:19)

That's great.

Jackie Perry (6:19)

It was Ohio. That dude. What was his name? Opposition in my face, trying to play the fence. Sound bigger than this dude. This. I Air Jordan on it.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (6:27)

You know what I said?

Tripp Lee (6:28)

K Drama.

Jackie Perry (6:29)

K Drama.

Tripp Lee (6:29)

Yeah, K Drama.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (6:30)

You had a little person there.

Jackie Perry (6:32)

Yes. And the promoter was a little person.

Tripp Lee (6:36)

Yup. You remember this? I do, yeah. Because I remember them being at other events, too. Other stuff around that. Yeah. That's crazy.

Jackie Perry (6:43)

It's the first day I met you, man.

Tripp Lee (6:45)

2011. That's crazy.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (6:46)

Yeah. I was telling Tripp that when I became a Christian, I was immediately introduced to him. Lecrae, Flame, Dizzle. Not even the truth. The truth came later. What I liked about you, I was like, oh, he country and he sound worldly. Telling the truth. And it was like it was a 2020 album. Cuz I just remember it looked like you was. You was on Mars or something.

Tripp Lee (7:08)

It was like a little.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (7:09)

Little space bubbles.

Tripp Lee (7:10)

And I was like, oh, that's a

Jackie Perry (7:11)

great album, by the way.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (7:13)

He sound like us and so shout out to.

Tripp Lee (7:15)

I appreciate. I appreciate that now, you see, but, you know, there may be lots of things that I do, but y' all too. I mean, I can think of many different eras. I was like, oh, I didn't know they did this too. Oh, I didn't know they also did this. I didn't know they also did this. I love that. So it's dope.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (7:31)

It's kind of like the Lord.

Tripp Lee (7:32)

Yeah.

Jackie Perry (7:32)

Well, speaking of that, you said something about the worship. You said you wrote these worship songs.

Tripp Lee (7:37)

Yes.

Jackie Perry (7:38)

Wow. So that's. I'm really intrigued by that. Have you always kind of had a gift of writing songs, or is that something that you developed over the years?

Tripp Lee (7:48)

This is something I developed over the years. It was something that I wanted to do for a long time, but felt like I don't know how to do this.

Jackie Perry (7:55)

Wow.

Tripp Lee (7:55)

When I was in college, I was part of a urban church plant, you know, was real young, hip hop influenced. And the songs we sang together, the worship songs, felt like they were so at the center of our time together. It was like when we were evangelizing, we were singing these songs. When we were in small groups, we were singing these songs Sunday morning. It felt like some of our richest time together. And this church had from the beginning, which church mats normally don't have, they had amazing musicians that could take those songs and make them feel like us. So they was like, taking CCM songs, making them feel more like us. They was taking, like, traditional gospel stuff, making it feel more like us. And I was just always like, man, I wish there were more songs that felt more like us. I wish that the categories didn't always feel so firm. But at that time, I was like, but I don't write worship songs. And I was like, I'm not gonna ask somebody to send me a trap beat to write worship songs to. Cause I don't even know where I would start. We had a couple people in the church who was starting to write stuff, and so that was just something that had been on my heart mind for a long time. You know, I also was at a church in D.C. for a season, about four years. This church, completely different. No drums, old hymns. Took me a very long time to be able to connect with those. But again, I was like, man, there's some rich truth in these old hymns. Now I would, you know, sometimes getting disagreements with the disagreements. Sounds strong, but I would be like, hey, Pastor, this song has beautiful truth and the melody is a funeral. And I wish that. Yeah, I just wish that there was a way for this to connect more to me and how I'm interacting with it. And when I helped plan a church in Atlanta, we didn't have amazing musicians at first. And, you know, so it was hard to have songs that really felt like us. So, anyway, through all these seasons, I'm like, man, I would love to. I just see the gift that songs are to God's people when they gather together. And I wonder if I could ever do that.

Jackie Perry (9:47)

That's dope. That's dope. I love seeing people who've been known musically in a different space to kind of venture into another space. Cause it just shows you how complex and how creative God has made us. That's dope. I'm excited to hear it.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (10:01)

What's ironic is I was listening to this sermon before I came downstairs from John Mark Comer about Jesus in the wilderness. And he quoted this passage from the Screwtape Letters where the, you know, senior demon is telling the little, you know, intermediate demon that two things that Satan hates is silence and music. And I guess I'm wondering how. What do you. What do you think about worship? How is that developed? What is your theology of worship? And how has that led you to this point?

Tripp Lee (10:33)

Yeah, I think. I think initially when I was first I became Christian, I was like, 14. And, you know, I knew I didn't really like the songs that they sang in big church. What I was calling at the time, we was going to youth church. And in youth church, we would. There was stuff that felt more like stuff I liked. But, you know, it was Kirk Franklin stuff. He said it was Fred Hammond stuff. Still some of my favorite songs. And then remixing random songs. I remember, you know that Gap Band song, Outstanding.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (11:07)

That was the Offering song.

Tripp Lee (11:10)

I never knew it was a Gap Band song because we sung the Christian version of it. And then one day I was like, charlie Wilson stole this from my worship leader.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (11:19)

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Jackie Perry (11:42)

That's genius. I tell you, I love cereal growing up, especially those cereal that you had like when you're watching cartoons, okay. And so my favorite Magic Spoon cereal reminded me of my favorite, you know, childhood cereal is the fruity kind. And I'm really excited to try their treats cause their cereal was off the chain.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (12:00)

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Tripp Lee (13:20)

But I didn't think, I think, I thought maybe it was just another fun moment of services that happened. I think it was when I was in college and was part of that church plan and I started to see how important it was to kind of the life of what we were doing. That's when how I thought about it began to change. And I think I've been saying like if there was one thing that this project did and it just gives me opportunity to have these conversations is I think we undervalue the importance of singing when God's people Gather together. I think we do not fully appreciate the importance of that.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (13:55)

Tell us more.

Tripp Lee (13:56)

I think we. Yeah, I think some of us treat it like it's like a fun, fluffy part that happens before the serious gospel work. You know, I had a friend who's like, drew, like, do we have to sing in church? I was like, why? He was like, I don't like it. I don't like the songs my church sings. I don't think they sound that good. I don't connect with these songs. Can I just show up when it's time for the sermon? And I think a lot of people, even if they don't say that, that is kind of how we think. We think. Like, oh, if I'm running a little bit late, I'll still be there for, like, the message. That's the main part. I think some of us think almost like the Western church. We added all this stuff. We got lights and fog, and we sing songs, and it's like, well, no, no, no, no. That part is not a Western. That's not a new thing. That is something God commands us to do. So, yeah, we do have to sing songs. And it's also not just an emotional part of the service. It's not. I think even pastors make this mistake where they, like, think about shepherding every part of the conv. Of the life of the church, and they think about all the discipling, and they're like, oh, but, you know, worship leaders used to do your thing, and then we'll get to the serious go. The Bible, I think, is treating the songs we sing together as how God is discipling his church. In some ways, it's part of the big gospel work. So I think of, like, Colossians 3. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly teaching and admonishing one another through psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, and sing with gratitude to the Lord. So it's like, if the word of Christ is supposed to dwell in us richly, one of the ways we're teaching and admonishing each other with that word is. Is singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. And so sometimes I want to encourage dudes especially who don't like to sing in church. What you're doing is you're not just kind of opting out of the part of the service you don't like. You're disobeying God's clear command. You're not just robbing God of glory, you're also robbing other people in the congregation of getting to hear God's people sing to him, because it is a us singing with gratitude to God, but it's also singing to one another. There's something that happens when we're singing God's truth to one another together. And so that, like, over time, has just become a really strong conviction of mine. Even pastoring, you know, like, while pastoring, I'm sin. No one is ever going to. I don't know. Music has access to our whole self in a way that just words don't. I mean, and we know this kind of instinctively, you know, I could. There's songs that you haven't heard since you were seven that you remember all the words. No one is ever on a Thursday morning, like, driving to work and reciting the words to my third point of my sermon. They just not doing that. There's a way that music gets in us. Like, there's something special there. And I'm like, that's a tool in my tool belt to help God's people grow that I don't want to let go of. I was talking to a girl one time. She was like, hey, Tripp, you know. You know, I struggle with depression and anxiety. I've been struggling to read God's word, and I've been struggling to pray this week. And she said, but on Sunday, when we came and we were singing these songs, and I got to hear hundreds of people singing God's truth, I was reminded that, oh, God's goodness. That I've been wrestling with sin. This is a reminder we all walking in this together, and it was almost like a way for us to bear each other's burdens, you know, to sing God's truth to one another when we're having difficulty doing it ourselves.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (17:18)

Yeah. I do think you. You bringing up the point of men struggling in worship. I think it can be a temperament thing. I think it's gender, but temperament. Because I think worshiping or singing out loud has a vulnerability to it.

Jackie Perry (17:35)

And I was gonna say that, too. Yeah, I was gonna say that, too. Cause it's like, I don't mean to be funny, but, like, some people sound like a coffin motorcycle when they sing.

Tripp Lee (17:42)

Yeah.

Jackie Perry (17:43)

And it's not like, why are you saying that? Some people just don't sound good. And so, like, what that got to do with you?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (17:49)

What got to do with you lifting up your ass and giving God glory?

Jackie Perry (17:52)

What? I'm. I. I feel like I listen. I know the Lord probably receives it, but I don't. I don't feel like my singing is joyful. Like, it doesn't sound joyful.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (18:01)

Oh, so you're embarrassed.

Tripp Lee (18:03)

It's.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (18:03)

It's.

Jackie Perry (18:03)

I feel like it's a distraction when you.

Tripp Lee (18:05)

When you get it.

Jackie Perry (18:06)

You know what I'm saying?

Tripp Lee (18:07)

I think it's a fair.

Jackie Perry (18:08)

Like, that's true. Cause I had a family member. I. So I. I applaud him. Cause he had no shame.

Tripp Lee (18:18)

Yeah.

Jackie Perry (18:19)

But the way he sung, we made fun of every week because it sounded like somebody was snatching his big toe off every time he hit a note. He sounded like a. He sounded like a. He sounded like a dolphin or a dog.

Tripp Lee (18:42)

Yeah, that. You know what I'm saying?

Jackie Perry (18:43)

Got hurt. You ever heard a dog got hurt?

Tripp Lee (18:45)

And they had a.

Jackie Perry (18:47)

That's the note that he.

Tripp Lee (18:50)

And that was the only note.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (18:51)

That's the only note that reinforces so many people's insecurities.

Jackie Perry (18:54)

So, listen, what I'm not trying to do, I'm not trying to say don't sing in church. I'm just saying if you can't sing well, probably, like, low.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (19:01)

What do you got to say?

Tripp Lee (19:04)

No. So. And I'm not gonna say no names. I have a really close friend who we. Anytime we. And we didn't live in the same city, we would go to conferences sometimes, but anytime it would be like, in Christ alone, our hope is fine. And. And me and my other friend were always, like,

Jackie Perry (19:24)

in all serious. In all ser. Yeah. Can it be a distraction? That's what I'm saying.

Tripp Lee (19:27)

Is that a distraction? It can, but I think. Oh, man. I think the part that makes it a joyful noise is not that it sounds good. It's the heart that it's coming from.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (19:40)

Tell us.

Tripp Lee (19:40)

And, you know, if it was necessary for us to have singing talent to obey this command, then God would have made very specific, you know, all the commands in Scripture to sing to the Lord a new song, to sing praises to the Lord. None of them are. As long as you have these particular gifts. Yeah. So I want to go so far to say is music and singing is an important depart. Is an important part of your following Jesus that you cannot ignore. Music has to be a part of how you follow Jesus because he commands it.

Jackie Perry (20:14)

That's convicting.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (20:14)

Why do you think it's one? I think it's helpful to define terms. So what is worship and why is it important?

Tripp Lee (20:22)

Yeah. The way one of the things that I. And I even wrestle with, whether I wanted to call this brag worship or not, because I think, you know, I even talk about this with my daughter. You know, when we were talking about Sunday, Sundays, and I'm like, oh, how was service day? She'd be like, oh, I like the worship. I like the. And we. I've already started saying, hey. So let's just be clear when we say that what you. What you're meaning right now is the music. There's nothing in the Bible that talks about singing as more worship than the rest of us worshiping Jesus. But it is a way that we worship Jesus. People call it worship music. We know what we mean by that. Worship is so it's not like music. It's not like a genre of music. It's not a particular sound. Worship is responding to God's greatness. Worship is acknowledging the greatness of God. And we know in the Old Testament, the kind of groups of words that they use for worship, you know, some of them had to do with service. Some of them had to do with bowing and reverence. And, you know, some of that had to do with the ways that God commanded his people to worship in the Old Testament, in the temple and in the tabernacle and in the New Testament. When it talks about worship, it, as we know, is saying, let all of your life be a reasonable service to God so that every ounce of every day is us trying to acknowledge the greatness of God.

Jackie Perry (21:44)

That's good.

Tripp Lee (21:45)

When I wake my kids up, I want to do it in such a way that acknowledges how incredible God is. And so even when God's people worship come together, we want all of it to be worship. That's what God has made us to do, is to make much of him. I call it brag worship. Because the Bible, you know, that's been the theme of my music for a long time, talking about bragging on the Lord. And then hip hop is so boastful. You know, we know how rappers are. If there was like bragging Olympics rappers gold medal every year. Absolutely. It's very impressive, actually, how good rappers are bragging. And so I always felt like if this is a boastful art form, I want to boast in the Lord. Scripture's clear on that. And I thought that's a good way to talk about what we do when we sing together in worship is making much of God.

Jackie Perry (22:35)

Yeah, that's. That's. You got a question I want to

Tripp Lee (22:38)

ask, does that answer you? I mean, you can. I'm trying not to, like, talk too long.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (22:42)

I want you because you done did all the work. But I guess I'm really interested on why God has created and instituted music as a form of worship, because I was even thinking about it Yesterday, music means a lot to me. It just always has. And yesterday I was really processing some really hard things. And what was helping me process well was music, you know, it was. But it was. I think the difficulty is that the music was producing certain emotions that, like. That wouldn't have been produced by a sermon, per se. But it also was leading me into prayer because those emotions were present. And I was like, I think this is one of the reasons why we have the Psalms, because it just gives us language for what's happening within our bodies.

Tripp Lee (23:34)

That's good.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (23:34)

I think that's an aspect. And I'm just curious on what you think about that.

Tripp Lee (23:42)

Yes, that's definitely an aspect. I wish I could remember a couple passages off top, but there are passages where the Psalms are talking about tuning instruments to mourning. It's like, what is it about music that, like, accesses our emotions in some unique way to actually be a part of how we mourn? In times when, you know, musicians playing for David as he's in a season of mourning, it's like, it's not something that we came up with. There's some way that God has made us in a way where. I mean, where for whatever reason, sounds and rhythm in time have a profound effect on us. I mean, and we see it like one of my favorite passages in the Red Sea, Pharaoh chasing after Israel, right? They're behind him, Red Sea in front of them. God splits the Red Sea miraculously. They walk through on dry ground, the wall of. A wall of water. Wall of water. They just walk. God made a little streak, they get through. And then God crashes the Red Sea in on them, which is miraculous. Incredible. And the first thing they do when they get to the other side, they don't just talk about it. They don't just say, man, God is good. They don't just send it to the group chat. They sink and they sing these beautiful words like, our God is a man of war. Pharaoh and his chariots have been thrown into the sea. And it's like there's something about the glory of what God just did, that just saying words wasn't enough. That there's something about the beautiful poetic language and the singing together that is able to praise God in such beautiful ways. And we notice in all of culture, like music and. And especially singing together is in stuff that we enjoy. You go to a concert, obviously people singing together, and it, like, you feel something emotionally. Basketball games, defense, you know, just chanting together. This is a unifying thing. And that's not by accident. And God Is like one of the reasons I gave you all that is so you can make much of me. Yeah. And it just connects to us in a unique way.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (25:46)

That's.

Jackie Perry (25:46)

That. That's fire. That's fire, yeah. My next question.

Tripp Lee (25:49)

Oh, can I say one thing I just forgot about? Cause my 5 year old yesterday, when something scary is on TV, so he. I applaud him. He knows himself. So he knows when he's finna get scary. His name is Silas. He got glasses. I never wanted none of my kids to have glasses when they were little. Cause it can look a little crazy. But he's very cute. And he. When something scary's on, he doesn't cover his eyes, he covers his ears. And so sometimes he thinks something is about to be scary. Because like we were watching America's Funniest Home Videos yesterday. The music they put under was kind of ominous. And it's like there's something about how that music sounded that like made him think, like, oh, here comes a scary thing. And I just think it's interesting that we have an innate sense for what certain kinds of music do to us emotionally. And I think the more like, I don't know, depending on what kind of theological circles you in, you may think that anything emotional that comes along with worship must be suspect. Like if it does something to us emotionally that it wouldn't do without music, then that must be negative. As if God didn't create us to teach you.

Jackie Perry (26:58)

Teaching, boy.

Tripp Lee (26:59)

I think what we should be more concerned with is that those things are matching up and what they're producing in us is a love for God and a brokenness before God and not something counterfeit. And we're not convincing ourselves because we only had an emotional experience. But yes, that's on purpose.

Jackie Perry (27:14)

Can I say something here?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (27:16)

Because I wrote a paper, I might have said this on the podcast before a couple years ago, and I was trying to answer the question is, are there like, is God's presence dependent on the worship styles of the church or something? And one thing I started to discover is that there are some musical styles that feel more oily, feel more. Feel more powerful. And it isn't necessarily that it has more power or more oil. Because when God's people are gathered, God's presence is there regardless. I think what we're experiencing is. I think there are some songs that give more room for Selah and then more space for what feels like presence. Cause some songs lean more intellectual, I think some lean more emotive. Both are beautiful. But I think we sometimes Depending, like, especially you grew up Pentecostal like me, I think you'll be like, nah, oil is on that. Oil ain't on that hymn. Oil is on that. Oil ain't on that liturgy. It's like. No, it's like one is tapping into different parts of your brain and your body. It doesn't make it less.

Jackie Perry (28:22)

That's very interesting to me. Yeah. Cause what's crazy is when you were listening to the guy you just said you were listening to John. John or whatever, and he was like, two things that the Enemy hates is music and silence. I was brushing my teeth, but I was like, low key. That part, you know, caught. I listened to that part and then I think what he said next, he was like, because the devil, he hates, like, he loves chaos. He loves things to be noisy and disorderly. And so I think with that being said, I think to what you just. I think I never thought about that. You know, I think creating an environment for people hearts to kind of be bare. To be still, to be still, to be reflective. And so it's probably not more so about necessary music, but how music helps us and prepares our heart to be.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (29:12)

Yes. To respond.

Jackie Perry (29:14)

To. Respond to the Lord. You know, I'm just processing, but I think that's deep to me.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (29:19)

Yeah. How has pain, I guess, developed your relationship with worship?

Tripp Lee (29:26)

That's a great question. I think some of the vulnerability, even though we were just talking about that, comes with singing, especially with other people. There is. Yeah, I'll say this part of it is when I look in the Bible and I see the songs that we have in here, like there's a whole song book in the Bible.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (29:48)

Right. What's it called?

Tripp Lee (29:50)

The Psalms. And that songbook is not. It's full of pain. You know, I say sometimes you might go to church on Sunday and all the songs sound like the LEGO song. Everything is awesome. And it feels like if we're gonna engage with God honestly and talk about how good he is, we kind of have to like, forget about all the hard stuff and the pain. And then we have this moment, which I think we can treat engaging with God like that sometimes. And I don't think that's what God wants do us to. I think God wants us to bring that pain in with us and then stand it up next to him and his goodness and to think about how he speaks to it. And so, like, for me, when I. So that's helpful for me because when I begin to write, even in how I want to worship God and wanting to lead People to worship God. It feels inauthentic if I'm not being honest about how hard life is. You know, so much of my last. I don't know how long it's been, 17 years that I've had a chronic illness. So much of how I begin to write and express anything, it's almost like I can't not talk about this. That's here, too. And then I look in the Bible and I'm like, well, there's all this pain that's there, too. You know, I was thinking about Asaph. Like, there's these 10 Psalms of Asaph, right? When the. In the third book of Psalms, it's like, 73 to 83. And all of them are just, like, heartbreaking. Like, let me read them. 74, you know, like, you know, sometimes people, like, want to just open up to the psalms, like, it's a happy devotional. And I'm like, you may open it up and just pick one and be like, everybody hates me. I wish I was never born, you know, but. Psalm 74, why have you rejected us forever, God? That's the first verse, Psalm 77.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (31:43)

I don't think that would get a double war.

Tripp Lee (31:45)

I cry aloud to God, aloud to God, and he will hear me. I sought the Lord in my day of trouble. My hands were continually lifted up. All night long, I refused to be comforted. I think of God, I groan, I meditate. My spirit becomes weak. He goes on and on about how he's in this deep distress. And I want people to find comfort in the fact that this is what the songs in the Bible sound like. Because when you get to the end of all of them, you know, like verse 16, he says, the water saw you, God, the water saw you. It trembled. Even the depths shook. Right? Verse 13. God, your way is holy. What? God is great. Like God, you are the God who works wonders. I just read that to say, we can say life is hard and God is good in the same breath. And if we feel like we have to ignore one to do the other, there's a problem. So for me, in my worship of God, my pain, my difficulty, my trials are always filled. I don't know at the forefront of how I begin to engage them. And one thing that pastoring did for me at least, is. I don't know, it just gave me a clear picture of what's going on in lots of people's lives all the time. And so when we gather on Sunday morning, you see people singing, like, there's a lot of people going through Lots of stuff that we don't know about. And so we want the songs that we sing to be able to have space to be honest about that at the same time. And I think even being able to lament together. Lament so not just like, oh, I'll deal with my pain when I'm alone, but when we come together, we just say happy stuff. I want us to be able to say sad stuff together too and talk about how God can speak to it.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (33:17)

That's good.

Jackie Perry (33:17)

How is your, your condition? For those who don't know your condition, I think if you want to explain some of the things that you went through over the years, but how have your condition kind of helped your worship and influence the way you worship, whether that's rap or writing, you know? Yeah.

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Tripp Lee (34:08)

So I've had an illness for the past. What year is this? 2026. Dang. 18, 19 years, man. 2007. And when I first got, you know, like, it was after my first year of college, I went to Bible college because I found out you didn't have to do math in Bible college. And the only thing I cared about when I was 18 was Jesus saying hip. And I met some dudes. I was like, wait, you went to a Bible college? Like you can go to college and study the Bible? They're like, yeah, so went to Bible college. Coming back from my second year, I just felt horrible. I wasn't sure what was going on. Felt like I had like a virus or something. I was starting to sleep like 18 hours a day and I was still exhausted for the other six hours that I was awake. My roommates calling me a bum. He's like, you're squandering your education trip. God is not glorified in this. And I'm going to the doctor. They're like, I don't know what's wrong. It's a virus. Take this. You're good. And long story short, it just continues. And I see doctor after doctor after doctor. They test me for every single thing they can think of. And they said, you know, if it's all of these things, I think you have chronic fatigue syndrome. And I was like, all right, bet. What do I do? It's like sleep. Nothing. There's nothing you can do. Try to live a healthy lifestyle. We don't understand it that well. And doctor after doctor after doctor. And there's stuff to treat, symptoms that you do over time, but. So in different seasons, it's affected me more or less in different ways. Some symptoms have come and gone, but it's been the hardest part of every part of my life for the last 18, 19 years. Hardest part of my marriage is my health. Hardest part of my relationship with Jesus is my health. Hardest part of parenting is my health. Hardest part of my work. Yeah. And so it's a constant challenge. It's something that feels in some ways good, Some ways maybe not good, but it feels like a shadow, a kind of a cloud over every minute of everything I'm trying to do. Never know how I'm gonna feel, you know? So I don't know how many good hours I'll have in any given day, and I don't know what time of day those good hours would be. So, yeah, that's just hard. That's why I'm not pastoring now. It was just hard health wise. So, yeah, that has. So when I've. The songs that people talk to me about that I've written, like, a sweet victory, that the songs that have meant the most to them, they're always the ones where I'm talking about the heartbreak of trials and God's goodness in the midst of it. The number of people who have said, hey, Tripp, I have a chronic illness. And just this song helped me to know that there's still hope and Jesus in the midst of it, or I was gonna take my life, man. Seeing that there's victory in Jesus changed my life. My mom was dying of cancer. This is the song she listened to every single day in the hospital. Those are the songs that have done that. And so it even felt like as I'm writing these worship songs, I definitely don't want to push that out because we don't want to think of that as if it's not compatible with worshiping God with other people.

Jackie Perry (37:12)

Yeah, that's good.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (37:13)

I think what I've found is that, I guess the things that God puts us through, the ways he disciplines us, the ways he trains us. Us and prunes us, it makes our worship that much more authentic, you know what I'm saying? Because it becomes more than just a word. It becomes colored by experience, you know? So if I'm. If I'm saying that God is. Is good, I'm, like, really saying that from my heart.

Tripp Lee (37:45)

Amen.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (37:45)

You know what I'm saying? And so I do think. And I think that's all up in God's plan is, like, in my life, he wants my confession to be authentic. And even in my worship, he wants it to be authentic and sincere and just real, even for the joy that I experience in that whole dynamic of singing a song that is actually true for me and not just words. And you have seasons where it is just words.

Tripp Lee (38:08)

That's right.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (38:09)

Where it's like, let's talk about that. You know the psalm where he says, like, my mind is getting mixed up with gospel. Cause I remember when I first started going to this church in St. Louis when I was a new believer. And you know how, like, you got that one person there, like, the worship leader. They don't sing. They're just exhorting y' all to get prepared.

Jackie Perry (38:30)

Yeah.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (38:30)

And she would get on the mic, and she was like, and I command my soul. And I would be like, why? But I ain't went through nothing yet. And so I didn't understand why she was so adamant about having to talk to herself before she worshiped. Talk about that.

Tripp Lee (38:45)

Well, I think it feels like another honest, the way that the psalmists are processing the world honestly for him to say, bless the Lord, oh, my soul, telling himself to bless the Lord even in the midst of all the hard stuff. It just feels like the Psalms being honest. And to me, that's very helpful when I'm struggling and I open up God's book and it understands where I'm at.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (39:05)

Wow.

Jackie Perry (39:06)

That's. That's. That's Psalms 103, 1:5, by the way. It says, bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is in in me. Bless his holy name. That you talking about that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tripp Lee (39:18)

And then he says, my soul, bless the Lord and do not forget all his benefits. And then he starts to run through. He forgives your iniquities. He heals you your diseases. He redeems you from the pit. It's like, I don't know. I want Christians to know, like, sometimes this isn't what your soul is going to feel like. And that doesn't mean to withdraw and pull away. That means lean in, remind yourself of his goodness. Remind yourself of his forgiveness. Spend time with people who see it, sing about his goodness. I don't know if y' all ever, like, have not really believed something when you started singing a song, and by the end of it, you did. That's what I love about some of the songs that have more. More, like. More. More depth in the amount of word, like dense. That's what I'm looking for. More dense lyrically. You know, like, it is well or something. Them songs that, like, take you on this journey and remind you of things within it.

Jackie Perry (40:06)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The commentary from Psalms 103 is dope to me. It says, commanding your soul refers to actively instructing your inner being, emotions, mind, and will to praise God.

Tripp Lee (40:18)

That's good.

Jackie Perry (40:18)

That is what Psalms 103 is pointing us to, too.

Tripp Lee (40:21)

That's good. St. That's good.

Jackie Perry (40:23)

That's dope.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (40:23)

That's hard to do.

Tripp Lee (40:24)

There's a joint you were talking about, like, our trials giving us more. I don't know, it being realer to us. There's a song on the album called Fortress with Naomi Rain. She can sing.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (40:39)

She don't sing.

Tripp Lee (40:40)

Oh, my goodness.

Jackie Perry (40:40)

No, I'm saying her voice is so pretty.

Tripp Lee (40:45)

It's very pretty.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (40:45)

It's magical.

Tripp Lee (40:46)

We was writing. She was like. Cause everything we were writing, it sounded amazing. She was like, yeah. People telling me, don't sing it, because it's gonna trick us. You know, it sounds better than it is right now, but we wrote this song, fortress, based on 2 Corinthians 12. When I'm weak, I'm strong, which was a passage for me specifically that meant more to me while going through trials where I feel like I cannot depend on the strength of my body at all. And so when Paul's like, I boast all the more gladly. And my weaknesses. It's not like a. It's not like an intellectual question. I'm asking to be like, how? Why is he boasting in weakness? It's a no. I need to know what's happening in your heart. I need that because this feels like it's ruining everything. I need to know how this is something you boast in. But anyway, that song Fortress starts, you know, I'm weakest when I'm strongest in my eyes I'm hopeless When I rejoice in my highs Lord, keep me low until I recognize I'm feeble Till my fortress arise. And I just, like. I wanna put that kind of honest about weakness, rejoicing in God's truth in God's people's minds and hearts.

Jackie Perry (41:53)

I had two questions, but I'll do the short one now. I think about your condition, and I think about your giftedness when it comes to rap. And I can imagine how being a hip hop artist can be very hard with that type of condition. You know, Throw your hands up. Throw your hands up with chronic. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (42:13)

Yeah.

Jackie Perry (42:13)

And so I guess. I guess, you know, when I'm thinking about what you're doing now, it seems.

Tripp Lee (42:18)

Why you laughing, J?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (42:20)

That was enough. If he performed like me, he wouldn't have to worry about it.

Jackie Perry (42:25)

No. Cause I've been to your concerts and they live, and I've always saw you. Cause we cross paths through the years a lot. Right. And I always thought about your condition and, like, how hyped your crowd's been, how taxing that may be on your body. And now I think about what you're doing now. It's just. To me, it's beautiful that you can still do music and don't have to jump around the stage. So is this a beautiful. Is this a more.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (42:49)

I like that.

Jackie Perry (42:50)

Is this a better season for you? Even physically, mentally, spiritually, still being able to do music and not have to be so taxing on your body?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (42:59)

That's interesting.

Tripp Lee (43:00)

Honestly, I hadn't thought of it that way. There are some things about making these songs that is harder than.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (43:06)

In what way.

Tripp Lee (43:07)

It's a completely different way to write songs, for one. So I feel like I had to learn how to write songs over again in a new way. Rap, as y' all know, we get lots of words.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (43:16)

Yeah.

Tripp Lee (43:17)

You can, like, meander your way to a point, too.

Jackie Perry (43:19)

Yeah.

Tripp Lee (43:20)

For the art. For the art of it.

Jackie Perry (43:22)

Yeah.

Tripp Lee (43:22)

You can't meander your way. Yeah.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (43:24)

There's so much space. Yeah.

Tripp Lee (43:26)

And, you know, like, I had a song, Supernatural, where I say I wish the. And I'm just talking about we need God's supernatural grace. But I'm like, listen to a bunch of stuff I wish was different in the world. I wish the forbidden fruit was bitter. I wish we all would get banned from Twitter. I wish hip hop didn't root for me. I wish police didn't shoot the killers. I wish that I could dance like Thriller. I wish everybody knew my guy, the Hilla, the cancer killer. Wish I could switch Dr. Pepper for liquor, protect some livers. I'm just going through all this stuff, Some of it serious, some of it light. But the point at the end is, you know, we need God's supernatural grace. We can't fix all this by ourselves. I can't put that in a worship song. I can't ask your mom to sing that on Sunday morning. So I had to figure out, okay, how can I say these things in universal ways, but not take the beauty or interesting character out of it? I just say that to say there's also. If I know that some vocals need to be done for my album, I just go record those vocals. Y' all know the hardest part? What's the hardest part of an album? When you're finishing up, what's the thing that's like. I don't know. When Ace is like, oh, Jackie, we almost. It's usually features.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (44:32)

I feel like I would be wrong.

Tripp Lee (44:33)

Okay.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (44:33)

Yeah, go ahead.

Tripp Lee (44:34)

Like, you're like, yeah, yeah.

Jackie Perry (44:35)

That's what I'm saying.

Tripp Lee (44:36)

Now. Features is like, because you're not just working with your schedule. You're working with other people. Other people gotta get stuff in. And the reason you want other people on your stuff is. Cause they're good at it, and they're

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (44:46)

doing lots of stuff, and they usually lack urgency.

Tripp Lee (44:48)

Yeah. Yep. And this is like, all of the songs are features, all of the content. I have to have other people a part of. This is not 100. You know, it's a. So there's lots of extra elements that make this harder. So there are times where, during the making of it, it feels like it's taking more of my energy.

Jackie Perry (45:06)

But I wonder when it's finished, how relieving it would be. Yeah, you ain't gotta go on the

Tripp Lee (45:10)

road to perform it. Yeah. I actually haven't thought about it like that yet, but that's interesting. You know, I'm about to go on tour with KB and Terry, and this is the first time on a tour I'm gonna be doing some of these songs live. And. Yeah. So it'll be interesting.

Jackie Perry (45:23)

That's dope.

Tripp Lee (45:24)

It'll be interesting. But, yeah, I mean, I was. I'm naturally laid back, too, so, I mean, I had to make myself be more, you know, like, crazy is all the energy in the world.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (45:35)

They love to jump.

Tripp Lee (45:36)

Yeah. And mind you, I'm like six. I'm like 15.

Jackie Perry (45:39)

With the more calm. You're the calmest calm one out of the. Out of the group. I wanted to shift gears, but if you wanted to kind of.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (45:47)

You said you had two questions.

Jackie Perry (45:48)

Well, my next question is kind of shifting gears.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (45:50)

That's fine.

Jackie Perry (45:51)

Okay. So a couple of years ago, Tripp, I was invited to this, like, this private influencer meeting or whatever. And I was like. I didn't know why I was there. I was just flying the wall. An interesting conversation kind of kind of broke out between, like, the Older generation from, like, historical black churches. And a lot of the Christian hip hop artists that were in the room. And I didn't even know a lot of this conflict because I didn't grow up in a church. So I was just ignorant to a lot of these things. And one of the things that, you know, some of the older, black influential pastors said how they felt like, you know, back in the day, they felt, like, slighted by CHH artists because they went into white evangelical spaces and kind of just lived in those spaces more than the African American church. Right. Because back in the day, especially when we was doing LEXI conference every year, it was predominantly white reform type spaces, inviting Christian rappers, even poets. And then some of the rappers pushed back and was like, y' all all called our music demons. Y' all said y' all can't worship with. And I think both can kind of be true at the same time. And so I think I would want you to speak to both. Speak to the person who says. Cause it's even. Jackie was saying, like, it's even like this kind of this ideology emerging.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (47:13)

There's a resurgence of criticism around Christian

Jackie Perry (47:17)

hip hop that it's unredeemable, that you can worship through it. And for me, that's, you know, like the first time I heard about Christian hedonism was a Christian hip hop song.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (47:29)

Yeah.

Jackie Perry (47:30)

The first time I heard sin broken down is when Flame was like, the Bible calls it sin. Yeah, bro, you see this odd nature? It's like a pig in a pen. They'll pass a steak up just to eat slop. Cause that's what. You know what I'm saying.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (47:41)

Who is that?

Jackie Perry (47:41)

Flame.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (47:42)

Okay.

Tripp Lee (47:42)

Flame.

Jackie Perry (47:43)

You know what I'm saying?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (47:43)

They taught everybody theology.

Jackie Perry (47:44)

Oh, my goodness. Back in the day, y' all songs were so theological. Like, 2020 was such a theological, like. And I'm not even trying to gash you. It was like a theological, like, piece of art work. Right? And so speak to the people who say Christian rap is not redeemable. We can't worship God through it.

Tripp Lee (48:03)

Yeah, yeah. I think we. I think we take our cultural preferences and then we just baptize them and we look for passages to make them true. I remember one time I was talking to this. I was at some conference I had spoken at, and it was a dude who had not been around hip hop before, really. And he was very skeptical of me. And then he heard me teach, and he was like, oh, this was good. And he was so confusing to him. And what I realized as we talked, he Was like, you know, cause what about it makes you want to dance and blah, blah, blah. And how can that have serious themes in it? And I'm like, you know, there's like, slow rap songs, too. Like, you know, there's a lot of different. I think the more foreign it feels to people culturally, the more they just read in their biases and what they just hear when they hear it. And I think I would want people to, one, allow space that for cultures that aren't yours, there's a lot you don't understand. There are things that mean something to you that that's not what they mean to other people. Things that sound aggressive or ungodly to you that are not. And we have to be curious enough to actually learn and care for each other. Even the thing about worship music, it sounds different everywhere.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (49:14)

Yes.

Tripp Lee (49:15)

Everywhere sounds so different. And other ages in the church, it's like, do we think that, like, these light, airy pads is just what Christians have been doing the whole time? Like, no, that's not. Nah, that's not.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (49:28)

They turn them pads on. Y' all think the Holy Spirit walked in.

Jackie Perry (49:30)

I see the sound, and it works,

Tripp Lee (49:34)

and it gives people that space. But that's not what God's presence sounds like. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I mean, one of the things that was helpful for me early on is cross movement. They were really, at the time when I was first getting into Christian pop, they were really doing a great job helping people understand that God redeems all peoples from all cultures and the parts of a culture that don't look like God. That's the part you gotta get rid of. But everybody's not trying to turn into one kind of culture. That's not helpful.

Jackie Perry (50:04)

Do you know, I put on my IG the other day? God didn't save me from my culture, but God saved me for my culture to reach my culture. And on Facebook right now, I was reading comments this morning. It's like 300 comments of people saying that it's sinful that God does not. God wants to boot culture out of the window. It's not about culture. Kind of just dissing culture as if culture is wrong. And somebody in the comments, ironically brought up Christian hip hop. They was like, but y' all listen to Christian hip hop? And I'm like. Cause I think people can sometimes be so heavenly minded where they know earthly good. And when you look at Christian hip hop, that's all it is. It is God redeeming people that come from a particular culture.

Tripp Lee (50:49)

Amen.

Jackie Perry (50:50)

And so we can engage in this artwork that started on the streets of the Bronx. It did not start in the church. Right. But because all music comes from God, it is redeemable. And so for people who think that hip hop can't be redeemable, it's like you were born in sin and shaped in iniquity. He redeemed you. Why he can't redee.

Tripp Lee (51:08)

And you assume that your culture is neutral. You assume that you don't live in a culture that's different than other people cultures.

Jackie Perry (51:15)

Absolutely.

Tripp Lee (51:15)

There's stuff about your culture that looks ungodly to people. It's like you're not the standard. And I think there's just a lack of curiosity and a cultural arrogance that I think, yeah. Keeps us from thinking wisely about it. So I encourage people before they're like, ugh, I don't understand that, to just ask questions, say, tell me more, Help me understand.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (51:35)

Yeah, it's all really fascinating, especially since I re entered into the Christian rap space and my sound is a particular sound. And I think some of it, and I say this gently, I do think some of it is ignorant in the sense of when you listen to even ccm, they are pulling from a lot of secular artists and secular sounds. But because you're not familiar with Coldplay, you don't know that that's the referen.

Jackie Perry (52:05)

You know what I'm saying?

Tripp Lee (52:06)

That's right.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (52:06)

But because you're familiar with three, six or whatever, your ear is attuned to what the influence might be. So it's quicker or easier, I think, to say that's wrong. Cause it reminds me of this, not knowing that we need to apply that to everything.

Tripp Lee (52:22)

Absolutely.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (52:23)

Also, I wonder if it's much like, you know, when you come out of the world, you do want to naturally reject everything that reminds you of that space. And so I think some of that. Some of that is legitimate. Where it's like, I don't want to be reminded of when I was in the club. I don't want to be reminded of when my Daddy listened to KRS1. If that was a thing. I don't want to be reminded of da da da da. And I think that's where we have to really do some work in understanding what convictions are. You understand what I'm saying? If it is sin for you, it is in fact that.

Jackie Perry (52:57)

And that's the reason why, you know, I've been patient for the most part with the people on my IG and Facebook or whatever, because I think it is an attempt to be whole, right? And I told this girl the other day and this guy the other day, I think the problem is when we come out of the world, I think we give the world too much credit for the church handling their things. It's like, I think we have to understand that the world doesn't create. It perverts. And so all things come from God, right? And so we look at something and be like, that's the world. It's like, no, that's not the world. You're looking at the way the world abused things, and you're saying that the church shouldn't use it because of the abuse, not because they have it in their hands, right? And I think that if we understood that, it's like, no. Like, no. The world abuses wine.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (53:48)

Yes.

Tripp Lee (53:48)

Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Perry (53:49)

That's not the wine. Doesn't belong to the world. They abuse it. Music doesn't belong to the world. They abuse it. Right? And so when God redeems it and restores it, Christians then bring it out to the world and represent.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (54:04)

Because drums harms are not inherently sinful. High hats are not inherently sinful. Harps are not inherently holy. You understand what I'm saying? And I think when we really distill it down to instrumentation and the way we are gathering these instruments to curate a certain particular sound, I think we need to get real specific. That's all I'm saying. Because I remember when I started to really pray and when I felt like the Lord was drawing me back into music. Music. I was at reach. And I distinctly heard. I'm not saying the Lord spoke to me audibly, but there was this strong burden of I am giving you. I am sending you into different territory where there are people that will not listen to your podcast, will not read your books, will not listen to your sermons, but they will listen to your sermons in a song. And so I think when you do, I think we have to trust that God is using Christian rap music to draw people to himself. Because at the end of the day, like you said earlier in the conversation, people listen to music more than they listen to the audio Bible. People listen to music more than they fellowship. People listen to music more than they're in the text, and that thing is ministering to them.

Jackie Perry (55:17)

This is the Lord. This is the Lord. Because as soon as you said that was very declarative. As soon as you said that, I thought about this had to be like 2014. No, it had to be before then. I think it was during grip season. Me and Jackie was part of this non for profit organization, mentored like inner city youth from the projects in Chicago called GRIP. And it was this 14 year old boy who came to Faith through one of your songs.

Tripp Lee (55:43)

Oh, wow.

Jackie Perry (55:44)

I would never forget that. And we brought him to the LEXI conference. I think he met you. He was supposed to meet you, but it was that song.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (55:56)

How does it go? I thought he was doing church class.

Jackie Perry (55:59)

How does it go? Yeah, I know it was a song. You had the good news. We was born in sin. Good news, we can be born again. The good news. And then you just really just broke down sin and you know, worldliness and God's righteousness or whatever. And he came, he came to faith through that song.

Tripp Lee (56:19)

That's incredible.

Jackie Perry (56:20)

And so like. But here's what I'm saying. This is a project. He lived in the Stateway Gardens in Chicago and he probably wouldn't have came to faith on some. Yeah, CCM and Maverick City.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (56:34)

We love Maverick City.

Jackie Perry (56:36)

I'm saying God has, God has a diversity of people to reach different, you know, demographics. And I think that we just undermine the sovereignty and the all knowingness of God when we try to put God in our own boxes. You know, I just, I think it's sad.

Tripp Lee (56:52)

And the number of people that I. This is one thing about having done this for too long is people make you feel old. But the number of people that I talked to who said, hey, I never knew anything about any theology. Your music made me read and study these things. I had a song called Beautiful Life where I was talking about the sanctity of human life. Even in the womb. Someone said, I heard this song and decided not to abort my children.

Jackie Perry (57:23)

Wow.

Tripp Lee (57:25)

The number of people who said, me and my wife came to a Christian hip hop concert. We would both gravitate toward it. And that's how we met and that's how we got married. The number of lives changed. Scriptures read people who've met Jesus through Christian hip hop. That to me, I want to give people pause and how quickly that they discount things. Cuz like you're saying the Lord is at work.

Jackie Perry (57:43)

That's so dope. That's so dope.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (57:45)

I still want to, I want to lean back into real quick because I think that's meaningful. The embarrassment and the insecurity of worshiping in the public gathering. Yeah, I think that's a thing.

Jackie Perry (57:57)

And so you saying I should sing?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (57:59)

You do sing to yourself.

Jackie Perry (58:02)

I'm saying in church, in front of people. You think I should do that? What Tripp said, you do do it. I don't do that.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (58:07)

You don't sing?

Jackie Perry (58:08)

No. Like, real low.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (58:10)

We need to explore this, you know? I guess I felt you sing.

Jackie Perry (58:16)

Have you ever heard me sing it in church?

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (58:19)

Yeah, a couple times.

Jackie Perry (58:20)

That's why I thought probably cuz you're sitting right next to me.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (58:22)

Right. I thought it was a thing. So why don't you.

Jackie Perry (58:24)

I'm not going to sing how my cousin be singing.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (58:26)

Don't do it, don't do it. Don't do it, don't do it. I don't want my concealer to. To. To get messed up. Why don't you do it?

Jackie Perry (58:32)

That's that song. Shabbat Hallelujah.

Tripp Lee (58:35)

Shabbat Praise the Lord. Shabbat Hallelujah. Lift up your hands.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (58:43)

I. I had a Jewish. Jewish roommate one time. I was playing that song. She was so offended. She was like, it's not Shabbat Shabak. Like, she said, like, real Hebrew. I'm like, I didn't. I didn't know.

Jackie Perry (58:54)

I just. I just like. And cie. Yeah, I was like, Barack.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (58:58)

She just was so offended.

Tripp Lee (58:59)

And we took words.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (59:01)

We need to talk about this, though. Like, what. What's happening internally that is preventing people from worshiping in the gathering and how do we exhort and encourage. Encourage them to do that?

Tripp Lee (59:13)

Yeah.

Jackie Perry (59:14)

For me, I don't even think it's. I don't know how we got back here. I don't even think it's.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (59:19)

I felt like we need to circle back.

Jackie Perry (59:21)

I don't even think it's like an insecurity. I think when I hear you rap, when I hear you rap, I'm like, man, they gifted for this. When I hear Naomi Rain and Cece Winans sing, it's like they're gifted for this. I think when people hear me write a poem, it's like, I know I've been gifted to write poetry, right. And when I see people that don't, it's like, no, that's not a poem. You just wrote down your thoughts and said it out loud. It's not a poem. And so for me, it isn't like,

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (59:46)

so you think people will judge you?

Jackie Perry (59:47)

I don't think people would judge me. I just don't think it'll bless nobody. It's just like, what am I doing with this publicly if it's not gonna bless anybody in the public square?

Tripp Lee (59:56)

And I think it will.

Jackie Perry (59:59)

You think it will?

Tripp Lee (60:00)

Yes, I think it will because it's a thing we're doing all together. So there's one thing.

Jackie Perry (60:06)

So my cousin not blessing Me was my heart. That was my heart.

Tripp Lee (60:08)

Well, he may need to turn the volume down a little bit. You know what I mean? Maybe he need to sit in the back. But no, there is a, like, there's a collective thing that we're doing. There's like a unifying thing. It's different than the other ways we encourage each other. Like a sermon, someone talks and we listen. Maybe we talk back a little bit. Or when someone's praying, one person is praying, the rest of us are praying along, saying amen. Or if we're all praying at the same time, we can't hear each other. There's this unique part where we are all singing the exact same words, the exact same truths about God, the same celebrations, all together with one voice is just really unique. And I think us hearing each other, I just think the value of her rapping, you doing poetry is like, that's performance. So you being gifted at it, that is what the blessing is. When we're singing all together, us being gifted at it is not what the blessing is. Maybe singing to God. We don't want your cousin pray for you.

Jackie Perry (61:06)

You pray. I think we. I think everybody can join in that I love you.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (61:10)

No problem singing on this podcast. I'm not seeing why we can't find.

Jackie Perry (61:13)

I'm not singing. I'm not that song. You don't have to hit no notes. You got to stay there. But it's like certain cc's mining songs.

Tripp Lee (61:19)

Oh, yeah. But I think that's why a lot of worship music is very singable with simple melodies so that everybody can sing along.

Jackie Perry (61:26)

I'mma sing more in church. I'm convicted.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (61:30)

I think the encouragement is one. You can be moderate, you know what I'm saying? So it's not like you have to sing out loud. You can mumble to the Lord.

Jackie Perry (61:40)

I'll be mumbling. I'll be singing to the Lord.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (61:41)

I just think also in the public gathering, not only are we being encouraged communally because we're hearing the words being sung to us, but I think there's a special experience in us saying things back to him. You know what I'm saying? And so I just wonder how he. He could minister to you.

Jackie Perry (62:00)

This podcast was for me.

Tripp Lee (62:02)

I don't think it's good to be vulnerable like that.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (62:04)

Yeah, you're very.

Tripp Lee (62:04)

Just be like, sometimes I can hear myself not singing that good. And I'm like, and that's okay. That's what we doing. That's what we doing right now. Now my wife sings beautifully, and so I'm like, I am extra blessed when I hear her singing.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (62:17)

Good.

Tripp Lee (62:17)

So. But. And I be trying to make my son sing. Yeah.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (62:20)

I be sitting there trying to. I get distracted. Cause I'm listening to the band and the bass, and I'm like. And if I hear one flat note, I'm like, so anything. Sometime I have to divest myself from the creative joy of it to just worship.

Jackie Perry (62:35)

That's interesting.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (62:35)

Yeah.

Jackie Perry (62:36)

Y' all got me thinking.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (62:38)

So for all the people.

Jackie Perry (62:39)

Can't wait till Sunday.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (62:40)

All the. All the people who. Who share that same. Those thoughts about, you know, can I sing? Should I sing? Don't want to sing. I don't think you have to pressure yourself into being something you're not or sounding in a way that you're not gifted for. Just see it as an opportunity to commune God, and people will see you and be encouraged by you. And so. And it's discipleship, even for your children.

Jackie Perry (63:09)

And so what we're not saying is join a worship team. If you ain't got to go, oh, no, sing it. Sing at your seat.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (63:14)

It's some people. I'm like, yeah, they mic ain't even on. They just told y'.

Jackie Perry (63:18)

All.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (63:18)

Yeah. Because you was willing. But that mic is off. I know it is. I don't hear anything.

Jackie Perry (63:23)

I don't want nobody to be like, oh, I'm joining the worship team tomorrow.

Tripp Lee (63:26)

Trip said, everybody can say. And that is distracting now. Sometimes we got what we got, but. But there have been times I'm like, lord, help me focus.

Jackie Perry (63:34)

Sure. Yeah.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (63:35)

It's a fight. Well, thank you, Mr. Tripley, for inviting us to worship. We will have your album in the show notes. Y' all listen to that. Y' all sing it out loud as long as you want to.

Jackie Perry (63:47)

In the car before you go, just, you know, tell them the name of the worship.

Tripp Lee (63:52)

Yeah. So Bragg worship. And the name of the album is for your glory. And it's. You know, there's Naomi Rain and Doe and Madison, Ryan Ward and Leah Smith and Jonathan Trailer. It'll feature an artist on this one. Then there's more to come.

Jackie Perry (64:08)

Dope lineup. Well, man, thank you for your service for the kingdom, even, you know, serving the Lord with your. Your condition.

Tripp Lee (64:14)

I appreciate it.

Jackie Perry (64:15)

That's admirable, bro. Love you.

Tripp Lee (64:17)

Peace.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (64:17)

Autoimmune unite.

Jackie Perry (64:19)

I'm kidding.

Tripp Lee (64:20)

Wow. Bye, y'.

Jackie Perry (64:21)

All.

Co-host (possibly a friend or fellow podcaster) (64:23)

With the Peries is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by master Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hob thank you for listening. Now go with God.