How to be a Christian When Persecuted

Summary

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With The Perrys: "How to be a Christian When Persecuted"

Hosts: Preston Perry & Jackie Hill Perry
Date: June 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Preston and Jackie Hill Perry dive into the nuances of what it means to be a Christian in the face of criticism, opposition, and persecution—especially in the age of social media. Sparked by a recent online controversy during Pride Month, the Perrys reflect on how Christians should respond when their faith is challenged or maligned. They blend biblical insight, personal anecdotes, humor, and honest self-reflection to explore the practicalities and spiritual realities of being persecuted for your beliefs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Social Media Kerfuffle: How It Started and Their Initial Responses

• Jackie recounts a social media post where someone wished her "Happy Pride Month," sparking a heated online exchange between Christians with varying views on sexuality and faith (04:00).
  • "There was just a big kerfuffle because someone said happy Pride month to Jackie Hill Perry. And it just started this, like, thing." – Jackie (03:32)
• Both host and co-host agree that social media often exaggerates controversies that quickly fade away.
  • "Social media has this ability to make things way bigger than what they are." – Preston (05:46)

2. Persecution, Opposition, and the Christian Mandate

• Jackie notes that while dramatic opposition online is not the norm for most Christians, every believer will face some measure of pushback for their faith (05:28).
  • "Every Christian will in some capacity [face opposition]." – Jackie (05:14)
• Responding to persecution is less about self-defense and more about leveraging every opportunity to point people to Jesus (04:15).
  • "We're supposed to preach the gospel, leverage these opportunities to point to Jesus, point to what he did." – Jackie (03:50)
• They underline the importance of not nurturing a victim mentality or seeing every criticism as persecution (10:40).

3. Social vs. Physical Persecution: Recognizing Privilege and Perspective

• Jackie draws a distinction between American "social persecution" (job consequences, social ostracism) and the life-threatening persecution faced by Christians in some other regions (16:00).
  • "Our persecution is social... That's different than you gonna get your head chopped off if you claim the name of Christ." – Jackie (16:00)

4. Personal Stories: Early Encounters with Opposition

• Jackie shares about her assertiveness in sharing her faith as a new Christian and the first time she faced backlash from someone in the LGBTQ+ community (17:50).
  • "Because I knew for a fact I was a different person. It didn't matter what y'all thought." – Jackie (17:32)
• Preston recounts his own experience being doubted as a “real” Christian because he didn’t fit in with church norms (21:48).
  • "I was so... I grew up so differently than them. I was still rough around the edges. I was a hood baby." – Preston (20:04)

5. Biblical Models: Paul, Peter, and the Early Church

• The hosts discuss how Paul and the early apostles responded to persecution: always using it as a springboard for gospel proclamation (09:12; 11:09).
  • "Every time Paul got persecuted, it positioned him to preach every single time." – Jackie (09:01)
  • "God always used persecution to point people back to the gospel." – Preston (08:57)

6. Healthy vs. Unhealthy Responses to Persecution

• Jackie warns against both timidity (never facing opposition) and self-manufactured persecution (provoking people unnecessarily and calling it a spiritual badge).
  • "If there's never any opposition, I think that's... time to interrogate and ask the Lord, am I timid, cowardly..." – Jackie (13:08)
  • "You're just offensive... So you're not actually sharing the gospel, you're being mean." – Jackie (12:36)
• Their advice: Live faithfully, let opposition come naturally, and respond with humility and love.

7. The Human Side of Opposition: Empathy, Not Condemnation

• Jackie stresses understanding the "human component" behind opposition—seeing those who critique or persecute Christians as image-bearers of God, not simply adversaries (24:06).
  • "If you see somebody just as an idolater and not as a person, you gonna treat them that way." – Jackie (25:16)
• This posture shifts interactions from argument to compassion and keeps evangelism "gentle and respectful" (1 Peter 3:15, discussed at 37:29).

8. Spiritual Blindness and Spiritual Warfare

• Referencing 2 Corinthians 4 and Romans 1, they stress that non-believers are often “blind”—unable to grasp the gospel without divine intervention (31:42).
  • "When you are talking to a person who is not a Christian, you are talking to someone who is categorically blind." – Jackie (32:08)
  • "Sight is a gift and a grace that comes by preaching the gospel." – Jackie (34:45)

9. Conduct as Witness: Not Just What but How

• The manner of response to attack or slander can itself be a powerful witness (36:26; 37:02).
  • "Our witness is not just in what caused the persecution, our witness is also in our response to it." – Jackie (36:26)
• Preston highlights biblical apologetics: defend the faith with "gentleness and respect" so that slanderers are put to shame by Christian conduct (1 Peter 3:15-16, 38:29).
  • "Apologetics is not just about winning arguments, it's literally about winning hearts." – Preston (39:01)

10. Persecution From Within: Legalism & Church Hurt

• Not all opposition comes from outside: much comes from "the world within the church"—especially from those with a form of godliness but lacking grace (40:48, 41:38).
  • "Sometimes we assume persecution only comes from the world outside... you also will deal with persecution from the world within the church." – Jackie (41:02)
  • "If you point at a legalist's actual motives, they're not going to like you." – Jackie (47:18)
• The most challenging opposition often comes from those convinced they “see” but are spiritually blind (John 9, discussed at 42:20).

11. Judging Fruit, Not Just Arguments

• Preston encourages discernment not just about who argues loudest, but who is truly bearing fruit in the Christian life (50:17; 51:24).
  • “Let’s pay attention to who’s actually being fruitful. And then we might start... to identify who's actually being used by the devil." – Preston (50:45)
  • "Because you will know a tree [by] its fruit, it bears." – Jackie (51:24)

12. Practical Encouragement: Build and Defend Simultaneously

• Jackie closes with the metaphor from Nehemiah: faithful Christians must build (spread the gospel, serve, create) with one hand and be ready to fight spiritual battles with the other (55:30).
  • "They were building with one hand, and they had a weapon in another hand. And the weapon is not to fight people who disagree... The weapon is to fight the devil." – Jackie (55:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Purpose of Persecution:

  • "They swinging on you because God wants you to talk about them." – Jackie (10:40)

• On Responding to Critics:

  • "If the person who made that tweet or that thread is blind, Jackie responding giving her the smoke would not help her see." – Preston (35:56)

• On the Danger of Manufactured Persecution:

  • "You're just offensive... So you're not actually sharing the gospel, you're being mean." – Jackie (12:36)

• On Ministry Impact:

  • "Anytime you attempt to be a faithful disciple of the Lord, there will be some degree of opposition. And that opposition is something that we leverage to preach the gospel." – Jackie (54:06)

• On Fruit vs. Critique:

  • "There’s a distinction between [people who] got a lot to say, or do they have a lot of fruit?" – Jackie (50:44)

• Memorable Testimony:

  • Preston recounts a powerful testimony from a woman who left a same-sex marriage after reading Jackie’s book and is now thriving in a church community (53:38).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:32–05:28 — Description of the social media incident and general introduction to the theme
• 10:40–13:39 — Healthy and unhealthy attitudes toward persecution
• 16:00–18:50 — Jackie's distinction between Western “persecution” and what Christians endure globally; her first experiences with opposition
• 24:06–26:00 — Empathy and understanding the "psychology" of those who oppose the faith
• 31:42–35:21 — Spiritual blindness, 2 Cor. 4, and the necessity of patience and prayer
• 36:26–39:38 — How your response to persecution is a gospel witness; apologetics with gentleness and respect
• 41:02–47:18 — Facing persecution from within the church, legalism, and the roots of opposition
• 50:17–51:24 — True Christian fruit vs. online criticism
• 55:30–56:39 — Nehemiah’s “build and fight” model for modern Christians
• 57:41–58:18 — Prayer for the woman who began the social media controversy, exemplifying the encouragement to love and pray for those who oppose

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Tone and Style

As always, the Perrys weave their characteristic blend of humor, real talk, raw honesty, and strong biblical conviction—as when they poke fun at each other's names (02:32), recount awkward moments, or get serious about spiritual realities. Their dialogue is marked by empathy for opponents, encouragement for the church, and the deep sense that Christians ought to be countercultural—especially in how they respond to adversity.

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Summary Takeaways

• Persecution—whether major or minor—is part of following Jesus.
• Christians are called to respond not in the flesh, but with gospel proclamation, prayer, and love—never through retaliation or self-pity.
• Empathy for those who oppose the gospel (seeing them as spiritually blind but image-bearers) is vital.
• Opponents can come from both outside and inside the church; discernment and humility protect against pride in persecution.
• True fruit—changed lives, not just arguments—is the mark of gospel effectiveness.
• Build God’s kingdom with steadfastness, keeping one hand on the work and the other on spiritual vigilance.

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For anyone seeking practical and spiritual encouragement for living out their faith amid opposition, this episode of "With the Perrys" offers both realism and hope grounded in Scripture and real life.

Transcript

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And we're live on matchday as Doug reaches for a buffalo wing. He's got it. Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi, too. What a finish. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match Days deserve Pepsi. Howd.

[Preston Perry]

What up? What up?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Hello, Jackie Hill.

[Preston Perry]

Perry. I was gonna say your middle name, but I was like, I don't know if you want me to say that long.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Can you put your. Like, your neck back?

[Preston Perry]

My neck all crazy.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. It just look loose. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Which is.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Which would be fine if you were standing on the couch. You look hungry.

[Preston Perry]

The sweater is actually really hard. It's probably not made for, like, sitting down.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, it's not. It's not made for sitting down. That's made for, like, standing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Oh, my goodness. I look like I'm one of the 1980 men.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Tuck it here.

[Preston Perry]

This is real time. We ain't gonna take none of this out.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

There you go. You keep tucking, and then pull it back out. You do it for me?

[Preston Perry]

I don't know.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't need to do it.

[Preston Perry]

I don't know what you want me to do. I can't see myself.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm saying, if you grab the back of your shirt and pull it down and then sit on it. There you go. You kept pulling it back down.

[Preston Perry]

I ain't know what you want me to do.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm just. Cause them clips. Sometime your neck, chest be out, it don't be looking. You be looking like you just woke up. And I know you don't mean to look that way, but it's just the positioning of your shape.

[Preston Perry]

Thank you for helping me. Thank you for being a helper.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay. I just wanted to say, when we be out in the street, sometimes y' all be coming up to us, and y' all call me by my first name, and then y' all call Preston Perry. And by. By that, I mean I've heard people

[Preston Perry]

call you Perry, too.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's very. Most people know my. My name. There's no alliteration in my name to be a confusion.

[Preston Perry]

I've heard people say Perry twice with you, but most times, they say Perry with me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. 98% of the time, I don't have to correct it. That's why it's such a unique experience. However, with you, it's.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, y' all be calling me Perry like I'm in the military.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, what up, Perry?

[Preston Perry]

I'll be like, why?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think maybe it's anxiety and fear where Perry Preston just gets flipped in their Mind. I don't know. A little bit of dyslexia.

[Preston Perry]

And then I've had a couple of people call me Pearson. I'm like, why? I don't look like a pierced thing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You don't like Preston either.

[Preston Perry]

That's true.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, you look like DeAndre. But anyway, what.

[Preston Perry]

What is that supposed to mean?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You look like your name should be black. No one is shocked by that assessment.

[Preston Perry]

What is a black name?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

DeAndre, we live in 2026.

[Preston Perry]

That is unacceptable.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

John. John Little. Something like you. Preston. Preston. Preston. You're from the south side of Chicago. You grew up in the projects. Preston.

[Preston Perry]

I think you need to be canceled.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Speaking of cancellations, start. I'm glad your mom named you Preston. I think it's a really.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. She was like, my son gonna grow up in the hood, but he's not gonna have a hood name.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. I think we are always fighting against white supremacy. And so we are always trying to make sure that on them resumes, they might not know what color this child is. So let me name them a name that's gonna get them heading.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, my mama was smart. My auntie Nana was like, why you name that boy Preston? She was like, job interviews. Duh.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's a thing. Anywho, we had a interesting situation on. Well, really? I. I don't know. I said we. I had an interesting situation on social media a couple weeks ago where there was just a big kerfuffle because someone said happy Pride month to Jackie Hill Perry. And it just started this, like, thing. And I think what's so funny is that social media is so. What's the word? Easily distracted. Cause I knew I was like, this gonna last maybe three, four days. And literally it did. Like, it's like, it'll be so big, big, big, big. And then somebody talking about something else. And so. But I think in light of that situation and kind of the back and forth between the Christian community and those who would probably call themselves a part of the Christian community, but affirming. And those that are totally affirming, those who are part of the ex gay community, those who are part of the actively gay. Like, there was just a lot of conversation happening, and I responded simply with the encouragement that we're not supposed to defend ourselves. We're supposed to preach the gospel, leverage these opportunities to point to Jesus, point to what he did, that he saved sinners. We're supposed to be curious about what God does when these types of situations come up. And we're supposed to pray for people that are lost. And confused and blind and legitimately don't understand why somebody could hold a position that says, no, I'm going to take up my cross daily and die. And I think the shock or surprise or even encouragement that came from it was like, oh, I think we should talk about how to handle persecution, how to handle opposition for our faith, because I don't think the average person will go through opposition in the way that I do or that you do. That's not average, but every Christian will in some capacity. And so.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That was a really long introduction. I'm really sorry.

[Preston Perry]

No, I think it was good. I think it was helpful, indeed. Not everybody. Not everybody saw it. But one of the things that I wasn't frustrated with the little thread or whatever, you know what I'm saying?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, I really wasn't offended.

[Preston Perry]

I know.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Genuinely.

[Preston Perry]

But that's the thing, though. I was about to say, like, as soon as. Well, after that, I started traveling. Like, I just got back from rally and stuff like that. And so everywhere I went, people was approaching me like, tell Jackie to hold on. And I'm like, what are y' all talking about? Like, I think social media has this ability to make things way bigger than what they are. And if everybody's talking about something, people are like, jackie must be going through it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm like, I mean, I could be. I wouldn't. I wouldn't.

[Preston Perry]

But I. But I feel like.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I feel like I wouldn't, like, discount the fact that, yeah, you got a bunch of people talking. A part of the reason I wasn't as discouraged to the degree that they might have assumed is because I didn't engage with the conversation. Because I've learned that over the years, when you read comment after comment after comment of people disparaging you, you will be discouraged. But I've also learned how to guard my heart when it comes to these types of things. And so I literally read that comment. And in another, the one comment that made me feel a type of way is from somebody who literally shouldn't have been talking. But other than that, like, when I say I wanted to say the smartest thing, but other than that. So I think it's fair for people to be empathetic.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I just think that, like, you know, when I. When I think about. Because I wasn't even thinking about the comments. I was just thinking about the initial comment. I'm like, that initial comment in comparison to you being protested at Harvard and you still taught anyways. Like, you literally taught in a room Full of liberal people, actual hate you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

You know what I'm saying? Like, and so, like, cursing me out. Happy Pride Month, Jackie Hill Perry. Whoa.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What is that gonna do? What's funny is I saw the comment when it had, like, a couple comments, and I, like, I remember I was on the toilet, and I smiled. I was like, oh, that's funny. And then I forgot about it. And then we.

[Preston Perry]

Not that fragile.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

A couple days later, Dr. Sarita had responded to it. And because I follow her, her response pulled it back up on my thread. And then I saw that it was doing numbers. I was like, oh. And then I was seeing that there are some, like, cats with, like, larger platforms that were a part of the conversation. And so I was like, oh, this is becoming a thing.

[Preston Perry]

Can I tell you what I told my homeboys? So, like, the day afterwards, I was kicking it with my homies, three of my homies, and we was at one of my homeboy spots at. He brought it up the day after, it kind of blew up. And I said. I said. I said, what y' all gotta understand about one of them acts? Like, how's Jackie holding up? How's she doing? I said, what you gotta understand? Jackie is a discipleship maker. She's gonna capitalize off of this. She's like, okay. How many souls?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I preach the gospel. Thanks.

[Preston Perry]

I'm like. I'm like, appreciate it. Jackie's at home researching stuff, trying to figure out how she can, like, use this to point people back to the gospel, how she can use this to point people back to Jesus. And I was just like, you know, I told one of my homeboys. Cause one of my homeboys was like, that's really dope. And I was like, yeah, but if you look at it, it's not just dope. It's biblical.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Preston Perry]

God always used persecution to point people back to the gospel.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's how the church grew.

[Preston Perry]

That's how the church thrived. It was through persecution. And so, like, I think people gotta really understand that when the enemy does something, God is always doing something greater.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Ye.

[Preston Perry]

And he's sovereign. And so, like, yeah, just keep that in mind. And so give in to.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I think to. To say that I didn't have moments of discouragement would not be true. During that week, I had incredible moments of discouragement. But it wasn't in light of the persecution. It was in light of the trials and suffering I'm already going through. So it felt like that was an attempt from Satan to just try to swing on me again. Like, if anything, it was just like, you really, like you really trying to come from my neck. And so that was a larger thing. But I think immediate, immediately when I started to pray and ask the Lord what he wanted me to do about it, I felt like I just remembered Paul in Ephesus and Paul, and particularly in Ephesus and how like he. Over here. Is that when he came from Artemis or something? I don't know. I just know in Acts, when you read the book of Acts, every time Paul got persecuted, it positioned him to preach every single time. Whether that was to the jailers, whether that was to Roman authorities, whether that was to people in the synagogues. His persecution always, like, he never saw it as, oh, wo is me. I'm such a great Christian, and now they don't want me to talk about the God. That is so ridiculous. Ridiculous in American to spend time for preaching for pity. And I think people, like, I think people get. They thrive off of feeling like a victim. It's like, no, this actually ain't about you. They swinging on you because God wants you to talk about them.

[Preston Perry]

That's so good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Period. It ain't about you. That is.

[Preston Perry]

That is so good. You're right. Not only did Paul use every persecution moment to, to preach, he really just used every moment. Yeah, every. Like, even in Acts chapter three, when he healed the man that was lame in the, in the synagogue outside the beautiful gate. I mean, he started preaching the gospel immediately afterwards. And then they threw him in jail. And then the.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Peter, they healed the man outside the gate.

[Preston Perry]

Oh, yeah, I was talking about Peter. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's okay.

[Preston Perry]

Paul and Peter. Yeah, yeah, all of them. They used the apostles. The apostles, yeah, they all used the gospel persecution. But any, any moment. And I'm like, like, because Pastor Phillip Mitchell always saying time is running out. And in a lot of ways it is. And because time is running out, like, how can you utilize persecution, healing, whatever it is, to preach the gospel and point people back to Jesus?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so which, while we're here, it's not going to be natural to preach the gospel when persecuted if you don't preach it at all, but you also won't be persecuted if you don't preach it at all. And so maybe some of us are sitting listening like, oh, I don't think I've ever been persecuted. I don't think I've ever been talked crazy to because of my faith. I don't think I've ever been mistreated. And it's like, well, maybe you're not wearing your cross. Like, there has to be some way in which you show up in the world where if you show up and there is nothing about your witness that's offensive to darkness, then you're, there's too much enmeshment with how you move and how scripture demands you to move.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And that's not to say I think some people try to provoke persecution, which is still self centered and narcissistic. Like, you're just offensive.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So you're not actually sharing the gospel, you're being mean. And then people respond and you're like, I'm being persecuted. It's like, no, you are a hole.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Because I think some people do that on purpose. Some people like make it seem like people are just coming for their neck so they can be like, I'm a giant in the face.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

They're literally disrespectful.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So no, it's not even, it's not even merely. I don't like the gospel. I don't like you.

[Preston Perry]

Right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't like you as a person

[Preston Perry]

because the way you deliver the gospel, it just your so called truth you delivered in a garbage bag, not on a dignifying platter.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Correct. So I just, I don't know, I want to call out if there's never any opposition, I think that's, it's time to interrogate and ask the Lord, am I timid, cowardly, Am I not living a certain kind of way that would warrant demons to hate me? But also if I am always basking in and boasting about persecution, it might be that you're trying to, you're trying to draw that out of people. And you're actually not even, you don't even care about souls. You just like how good it makes you feel for people not to like you.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I do think a lot of us have to be like Peter. I love what Peter wrote to Timothy when he was in prison. The second time he got arrested in prison, he said, I, Paul, I'm in prisoner, I'm in prison, labeled as a criminal, literally mean evildoer. And so like, and then he says, but the gospel is not bound. The gospel is not in chains. He says, therefore I do all things for the sake of the elect, that they might obtain salvation through Jesus Christ with eternal glory. And when I hear things like that, it's like, you were so gospel minded when you were arrested in prison for something that you did not do. And you still have this gospel minded I just don't know if the average Christian, even myself will be thinking about salvation if I'm in prison for something that I didn't do.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't think we, I don't think because I think we're really self centered. I think Paul, but particularly obviously Jesus, they had a mission and they had a mission and a knowledge of God that says that God is so providential that everywhere I go on this path is not a distraction from the mission, it's a part of the mission. So if that's in jail, I'm still on the mission. If that's in the synagogue, I'm still on the mission. If that's while I'm on the boat and the ship is about to sink, he over here praying and he's like, yeah, the Lord told me that we ain't going to die, we just got to throw everything overboard. Cuz he still got people to say every single moment was a missional moment. And I, I, I think, yeah, that just matters. I think as long as we think we're just living for ourselves and not living for the gospel, then we're going to be not used as greatly as we could be.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah. We were talking about this before we started and you said that she was gonna ask me a question, but I'm gonna ask you the question first.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay.

[Preston Perry]

You know, I'm still your question.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's fine.

[Preston Perry]

You did say something in the beginning. You said persecution here, you know, persecution. You're persecuted in on levels that probably like the average Christian is not. And I am can't relate. Right. But when you first became a Christian, just for the Christian who might be listening, who's still persecuted to some level.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

What was the first time you could remember as an early Christian you were persecuted and how did you deal with it? How did the Lord stretch you? How did the Lord grow you through it? And all the things.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I want to put a small caveat. One, one thing is even the word persecution or like sometimes I like broaden it out to opposition for your faith. Even though persecution is a more succinct way to say it. And I say that because I'm always really sensitive to how in other nations and other countries that are a part of the church are going through persecution that we cannot fathom. Our persecution is social persecution. They talk about you on threads, they unfollow you, they bash you, you might lose your job, you might, you know, your family might not like you. That's different than you finna. You gonna get your head chopped off if you claim the name, like the name of Christ. So I just, I'm always sensitive to like what we going through is light work compared to that. But anyway, I think. When I first became a Christian at 19, even the day after I became a Christian, I got on Facebook, I put my prom picture on my profile picture, cuz that was the only picture that I look like a girl. And I put on my status like I'm free in Christ or something like that. And I just started telling the truth immediately. Like it just wasn't like my temperament was already really bold in a way.

[Preston Perry]

And so he was ready for the smoke immediately.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

One, I didn't know there was smoke. I didn't know. But I also knew what I experienced. And so because I knew for a fact I was a different person. It didn't matter what y' all thought. It was like the sky is blue. Like y' all want me to say it's green. I can't say it's green. Like I've experienced it's blueness. And so I think, I feel like the first time I experienced some type of opposition was I went to a poetry event. And I think I did my life as a stud. I'm sure I did. I don't know. And this older stud came up to me, mind you, I'm 19, I look like a child. Talk about you could be delivered. And she was trying to sun me, talk to me like, oh babe. Well, not even that soft. Cause she was student know God love us all. And I'm like, I'm not arguing that he doesn't love us all. And she. I just remember praying and not feeling intimidated by her height, by her position, even by her demeanor. I just remember I was just so convinced. And I remember she said something like, you just young, you got to live a little bit. Like you don't. You don't know what you talking about. You just got to live a little bit. I said, but the Bible says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So it's possible.

[Preston Perry]

Apologist, a young apologist.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I was like, it's possible that I actually know more than you because I fear God. Maybe I didn't even say that real nice. I'm pretty sure I didn't. But I remember that scripture coming to my mind.

[Preston Perry]

I wish I was there.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't, I don't know.

[Preston Perry]

That would have excited me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I think, I think that's the first time that I, I realized that people, it's not that they want to just argue with your position, it's. It's like they hate you. Does that make sense?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's what makes it different, is that we're not just talking about ideas here. You got beef with me, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, you talking to me like you

[Preston Perry]

wanna fight me because your position threatens their idolatry. Idolatry or who they are or their identity. Who. What they think is our identity, what is really idolatry. And I get it. You know, I remember feeling judged by Christians when I was in the world. It was just like, I used to hate when they used to come to our neighborhood and evangelize. It's like, bro, we selling weed. Like, go home. You know what I'm saying? And so I get it. I do think that when light shows up and uncomfortable with darkness, it's uncomfortable. It's like, why you shining the light over here? Like, we cool over here. And so I completely get it. I think when we think about persecution, we think about bogus people. I know sometimes I do like people who are just sinful. But a lot of times the enemy uses very natural means.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think most people are very reasonable.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like people. The enemy use very natural means to persecute you. For example, like when I first became a Christian in my early days or whatever, you know, I left from being on my mama's side, which was all hood people, you know? So I grew up with my mom to my dad's side, and I ended up giving my life to the Lord and my family, a family church. And I mean, they was, like, deeply Pentecostal, you know, And a lot of them loved me. Well, but when I first became a Christian, I was so. I grew up so differently than them. I was. I was still rough around the edges. I was a hood, baby, you know? And when I gave my life to the Lord, I gave my life to the Lord in a very untraditional way. And looking back now, I can see that was the sovereignty of the Lord. He didn't want me to do, like, the whole. A lot of the. What seemed to be antics in. In the church, you didn't say.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, you know, like, it was like

[Preston Perry]

this thing where we had to, like, run. And, like, the Lord knew I wouldn't have done that. As a matter of fact, like, a week later, they tried to make me run. And I was like, that's crazy. I don't feel like running. Like, there's nothing in me that wants me to be like, ah, you know? What I'm saying, just like, you know, but I had a real encounter. You know what I'm saying? I had a real encounter with the Lord in my room. Like, he really met me. Like, I was really, really broken over my sin. And I just remember feeling the love of God, the peace of God, the conviction. I stopped doing all the things. And I remember the first, earliest times of persecution is when I felt like nobody believed that I was a real Christian and just criticizing me. And. And even.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's like the Apostle Paul in some of Corinthians and Galatians.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like this. Or even Acts, when he first got saved. Nobody believed that because of how terrible he was.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think because I didn't have, like. I didn't sound churched. I didn't sound. You like them. I didn't talk like them. And I think a lot of. And I actually saw that, like, even some people who, you know, stray away from the church, they came to their church and became Christian. And it's like they. It was like. It was almost like uniformity was like unity to them. It's just like, y' all talk and act, and I'm like, I just don't. You know what I mean? And so even then, I had a lot of just my own individualism, you know, and just. I had to have the evidence of speaking in tongues. I had to look a certain way. I had to act a certain way. Not with everybody in the church, but with some people. And I remember feeling really depressed early on, and the Lord had to show me, you know, later, like, no, this is. This is your test being tried. Immediately.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Your test, your faith.

[Preston Perry]

Your faith being tested. I'm sorry. Immediately, like, this is immediate opposition. So that was like, some of the earliest days of what I feel like opposition and persecution for me, that I had to wrestle with. But I think the Lord, in his sovereignty, used it to. To show me that he, in a lot of ways, never wants me to change because of the people that he wants me to reach. And so I've never lost that. I've never. I've always kept it in mind. But God used that persecution to shape me into the person that I am now. And I think because of that, you know, now you have a book called how to Tell the Truth, where I'm not ashamed to talk about the south side of Chicago and so many people I've been blessed by because I didn't conform to what I think of a black Christian supposed to be. And so, yeah, I think God wants to Use opposition and persecution for his glory.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, I think. I think I want to dig into kind of the human element happening when people oppose people of faith. You understand what I'm saying?

[Preston Perry]

Because to me, are you talking about, like. Like how the. The real emotions of the person that's actually doing the persecution?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, basically the psychology. What's happening in the opposer. Because to me, having an awareness, a sensitivity to the human component behind people offended by the gospel gives me empathy for people who are offended by the gospel. Let's go there.

[Preston Perry]

That's really good, you know what I'm saying?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because I've seen in some spaces they talk about people who are offended like they're degenerates or unable to think or unable to reason. And it's like, are they sinners? Yes. Is there depravity? Yes. Is there hardness of heart? Yes. Are they idolaters? Yes. But they are also made in the image of God. They are also gifted with graces from God. They also are still under the dispensation of grace and therefore available to change or repent if only we love them well. And so I think holding both of those realities. Realities together, it changes how we show up. Because I say that, like, if you see somebody just as an idolater and not as a person, you gonna treat them that way.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. That's good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

If you see them just as a sinner and not as somebody who also has rational capacities to have a reasonable conversation, I think we need to see people as whole beings. And so that's why I'm able to talk to anybody. Like, you could have had sex with a horse.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Preston Perry]

Beast theology on here.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You could. You could be in love with bumblebees. And I'm still going to talk to you with no ounce of judgment because I'm interested in you as a person. But I also have a knowledge of God that gives me a precise way to talk through who you are, why you are the way you are, and who he is, and let those bring those things together. Does that make sense?

[Preston Perry]

It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense because, you know, I teach just a lot of my evangelism workshops because I tell people all the time, when you say, preston, you could never be bold like me, or you could never do evangelism like me. I tell people all the time. Often what I hear is I'm really not prepared for the persecution that comes with sharing the gospels of the world that hates it. That's what I often Hear. But also what I hear is like, either I'm not ready for the persecution, or I'm just not prepared to handle people.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Are you talking about something different than what I'm talking about?

[Preston Perry]

No, I was going in.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You're about to connect it.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I was about to connect it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, or I, I hear people saying like, I'm really, I, I, I don't really know how to handle sinners. I don't know how to handle. Which is funny, people, even, even though I used to be a sinner, I just don't know how to sit under the weight of somebody who is obviously not rocking with the Lord, obviously hating the Christian church. I just don't know how to handle that. And so one, one thing I'll try to do is throw scripture at them, you know what I'm saying? Or I just have a lack of grace. And I think the Bible and I think God wants us to sit in the tension of people sin. It's like, how do I meet this person where they are, even if the person hates me? That's the hard thing, you know, I'm saying. And so in evangelism, I had to deal with persecution, I had to deal with people not liking me, but I had to push past why they don't like me, me. And it's really, you don't like the Lord. And it's like, I had to dig. I have to, I have to investigate. And then once I dig, it's like in the conversation we find a middle ground. It's like, oh, you really, you, it's really mean that, that you don't hate. It's, it's the, it's the Lord you have a problem with.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, but it's also like there's some of this is natural. Right. So it's like if I'm having a conversation with anybody that's guarded about anything, how I show up in my aff can play a part in them letting down their guard. So as I'm communicating hard things, I've built some degree of trust. Even if it's a 10, 15 minute conversation that allows the gospel to be heard and considered simply because of how I am showing up. The Bible is telling the truth when it says to be harmless as a dove and crafty as a serpent. You know what I'm saying? Crafty is wise. I'm being thoughtful, I'm being intentional. But harmless has to do with my demeanor. And so if I feel harmful, like the words I'm saying are not actually harmful if they're true.

[Preston Perry]

What say no, absolutely. Cuz everything you're saying is so true. Like, and that's why I be trying to tell you, you a great evangelist like you, like you the, the stuff you be knowing stuff you. That's so good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay, what's your response?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah. What I'm, what I, what I was going to say is I think what people got to realize is that Christians, we are like, like we're confusing to the world. That's you, you, you really have to understand how confusing the Christian worldview is. Like when you talking to an. And they actually are living in a very human reality to say that we have been received the Holy Spirit, that God has given us the power to overcome sin, that we have the, you know, the power to defeat sin and death, that we have the power to say no to our temptations. We kind of, we kind of seem like we're not human to people who are actually just living in their reality

[Jackie Hill Perry]

because a lot of people but, but a lot of people have not met Christians. They've met people with a form of godliness.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so you presume that the chur and the arrogant and the egotistical and the super pretentious and pompous way of life where we don't do this and we don't play cards and we don't go to the casino and we don't do this and like they know more about what you're against than who you love. And so if you think that's Christianity, then of course they don't want you.

[Preston Perry]

Absolutely.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I think some of the work we got to do is that we are following up a whole, about behind a whole bunch of people that have made Christianity something other than what it was actually created to be, which is about Jesus.

[Preston Perry]

That's good. Yeah, true. And that's why I loved, that's why I just got excited when you said, you know, going to situations with, talking to people who oppose your faith with like with confessions and leading with your humanity. Because I do think a lot of times we prolong our persecution still trying to talk to non Christians with Christian lingo, Christian scriptures and it's just like no sometimes unbeliever needs to hear. You know what? I still struggle with that, bro.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

For sure.

[Preston Perry]

I still struggle with this. Even though when you talk about how you still have some temptations stations, they still try to like pursuit, but it

[Jackie Hill Perry]

is what it is. And, and mind you, I was on the phone with somebody, I said they over here making all this Rica Moreau around Same sex attraction. I said, the sin I'm struggling with the most is pride. I said, pick the right one to talk about. Like, we gonna talk about, like, what I struggle. Like, struggle, like, it's arrogance. But anyway, I think it's like, y' all are picking on the wrong thing. Facts. That's how you know they're not discerning.

[Preston Perry]

That's your husband.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I know they being followed by the devil. Okay. I wanna. I wanna give some scriptures that I think are helpful frameworks in how we should approach unbelievers. And I think it gives us a bit of, like, empathy and just, like, it's okay. Okay. So one is Romans.

[Preston Perry]

Unbelievers who persecute you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. I mean, unbelievers in general, but. Yeah. Especially when they persecute you. 2 Corinthians 4. Paul says, Even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case, the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Pause.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I love this scripture. I found this scripture when I. I was like, a newer believer, and it just stayed with me because of the following verses. But when you are talking to a person who is not a Christian, you are talking to someone who is categorically blind. And I remember in a poem, I said, how do you explain the Son to someone who can't see?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. If someone is Eyes Like Judas is a really good point. Y' all should go look at Eyes Like Judas by Jackie o'.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Paris. If no one has ever seen the sun, then that means even in my explanation of the Son, that requires patience. They don't know what you're talking about.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That all they know is darkness. And Romans 1 tells us that what they think they know is like, what they know they think is actually wise. And so even their assessment of the darkness to them makes more sense than your, like, confession of the light. It doesn't. They are clashing. And so I think knowing that you're talking to a blind person is a part of the thing that should give you not only patience, empathy, but also a prayer. Where did the book go? Because if I'm talking to somebody that's blind.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Press the Perry. If I'm talking to someone that is blind, I can't make them see.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So not only in this conversation do I need to be patient, do I need to have empathy. I also need to be prayerful because it means that I am actually participating with God in helping them see. But I'm not God.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah,

[Jackie Hill Perry]

yeah.

[Preston Perry]

And can I just. And can I. And can I just bring it back to. And this is not.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Then I want to read the following verses.

[Preston Perry]

Okay. You could read it first and then I'll say what I want to say.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

This is important because this is. This, I tell you like everything I do when it comes to ministry in the world, this is my framework. And so remember, in their case, the God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of glory of Christ. So when you preach the gospel to your family, to your cousin, and you don't understand why they don't get it, it's because they're blind. Like the enemy is keeping them from seeing Jesus. And what you're saying, however, comma Paul says what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as servants, for Jesus sake. Meaning when we preach, we preach Jesus, we don't preach law, we preach Jesus, we don't preach prosperity, we preach Jesus, we don't preach. Preach hell and damnation unless it's a part of what happens when you reject Jesus. And so making Jesus the centerpiece of our preaching is our call. Why? Because God in his grace, uses the preaching of Jesus to do verse seven for God who said verse six for God who said, let light shine out of darkness. That's Genesis has shown in our hearts to give. That's a grace, that's a gift. The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So preaching the gospel is the means by which God gives people the ability to see him. So it means that sight is a gift and a grace that comes by preaching the gospel. So you can't just say, oh, well, I can't save nobody.

[Preston Perry]

No.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

God has set you on mission because he wants to use you to bring light.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's so good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so we are always, we are always dependent on God to attend the preaching of his word so that blind people can actually see Him.

[Preston Perry]

That's so good. And I, what I was going to say was I want to just, I. To want. I wanna go back to the girl who made the thread. Cause like, when I just came back from a conference, people were like, I'm so. I was so surprised how Jackie responded. Could have been me. But I'm like, no. Like, if that, if the person who made that tweet or that thread is blind, Jackie responding Giving her the smoke would not help her see.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No.

[Preston Perry]

It just won't help her see.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No.

[Preston Perry]

And it's just like if she's.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Cause that's fighting with carnal weapons, if

[Preston Perry]

she's blind, she actually needed you to respond in that way because that was the only way that she will be able to see the light of the gospel. And that's what we have to understand. The enemy always wants us to respond in our flesh, not just so that we can be in trouble with the Lord. So the, the people that's mad at us won't be able to see.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because. Go ahead.

[Preston Perry]

I'm. I'm sparking your mind because I'm. I'm going to say something else. If you want to say it real

[Jackie Hill Perry]

quick, I'll just say it quickly. Because our witness is not just in what caused the persecution, are witnesses also in our response to it. Like, do you know how strange it was for these apostles and these disciples to be beaten and thrown in jail? And for them to rejoice and be in jail singing, it's. It's because Paul and Silas are in jail singing that cats are like, how can I be saved? It's the response to the persecution that is as much a witness as what caused the persecution.

[Preston Perry]

That's so good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And it communicates I am dealing with someone who is actually not natural.

[Preston Perry]

Ooh.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. And so you see me responding and you see Christians are responding in ways that say, I don't think I'm dealing with, like, they're not acting like humans act. And it's because I'm being led by the Spirit who is not human.

[Preston Perry]

That's fire.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I think we need to see that how we deal with offense is also a part of our witness.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. But that's so good. What I was about to say. You know, everybody know I love apologetics. And the, the most famous apology other than Jude, most famous apologetic scripture is 1st Peter 3:15. But it's really talking to, like, what people don't really realize is that that scripture is talking to the persecuted church. Right? And so, like, we know that apologetics derives from the Greek word apologia, which make, which means make a defense. But in 1st Peter 3:15, it says honor the Lord is holy, always being prepared to make a defense for anyone who actually for the reason, for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect. So it talk gentleness and respect. But this is when he Talks about the persecution. The next sentence it says, so that when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. And so that's what people don't realize. And so yes, it is talking about an apologetic argument, being ready to be prepared. But it's saying, he's saying being ready to be prepared with people who persecuting you, with people who are slandering you. Do it with gentleness and respect. So that when it happens, your conduct, your behavior, your not being natural, but being spiritual in moments like that will put their behavior to shame. And that shame will eventually lead them to Jesus. That's what he's saying. And so he's not saying have like an apologetic debate. He's saying, no, be missional, be evangelistic, you know what I'm saying? And that's what people gotta realize. Apologetics is not just about winning arguments, it's literally about winning hearts.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Cause what Satan wants is for in your cause. I'm thinking of people who probably the most wrestled they got is probably with people in their family, you know what I'm saying? And that can be the place where you feel the most irritation because it's just like, tasha, why you acting like that? But I think what Satan wants most most is for you to, to respond to sin with sin. That's what he wants.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so it's like your irritation, your lack of impatience, your like all of that. Like you have to, when that comes up, you have to put some boundaries probably around the conversation. Be like, you know what? I'm starting to get an attitude. I don't think that's holy. I'mma go pray. Can we revisit this? You know what I'm saying? Even that shows somebody humility where it's just like, oh, I would actually know, never go pray because I was mad. And so the Lord can use even your honest humility in those moments. But I think just be aware of the schemes of the evil one and be aware of your own flesh. And know like, maybe this isn't a conversation I can engage at this moment, because I'm going respond to you crazy.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's good. That's real good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

One thing I want to hold on. Let me go to one more scripture, John 16. Jesus is about to die. He's having a conversation with his disciples. Disciples, verse 1. He says he, he starts to talk about how the world will hate him. Please hold that in your mind. The world will hate you. We all think world, we think people at the club the strippers, guys like

[Preston Perry]

that so called church folk.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He says, Verse 1. Huh.

[Preston Perry]

A lot of times the world be like people who acting like Christians, but

[Jackie Hill Perry]

they not verse one. I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do these things because they have not known the Father nor me. I think sometimes we assume persecution only comes from the world outside of the church. When you also will deal with persecution from the world within the church with people who think they're a part of the church. So with Jesus and Paul. Paul, when you read those letters, when you read the Gospels, who was Jesus main beef with? The Pharisees, the Sadducees, who was Paul's main beef with the Jews?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like it wasn't the world who had the biggest issue with the gospel. It was usually people who were still slaves to the world acting like they was Christians that had the biggest beef with the gospel. And dare I say, I think it's the legalist and the people with a form of godliness that are the hardest to reach because they are so convinced that they know God and you don't. When you sitting here like you are, you're more blind than the gay person.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Who's submitted to their sexuality because you're less self aware than they are.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

They done been to church and heard all the things about what they deserve and all the things they like. I don't like it, but I get you over here like I'm a good person. I tithe.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. That's going to be the hardest persecution that I didn't deliver. Yeah. Because the hardest person to reach is the person who believes that they're both blind, believes that they can, they can see, but they're actually real blind. That's the, that's the whole end of John 9, which I love. I reference that scripture all the time. But it's like, you know, after Jesus healed that man in blind in John 9, the Pharisees asked Jesus, Jesus, what are we also blind? And Jesus says, no, if you were blind, you would not have no, no, no guilt. But now that you claim you see, your guilt will remain. And so because they, they were so blind, but they convinced people that they see so much, they're the ones who were motivated by the devil to persecute Jesus the most because they were utterly blind. And now Jesus just healed a man of physical blindness and a spiritual blindness in John 9. And Jesus asked the man that he healed of a physical blindness, do you know who the Son of Man is? And the man says, no, I don't know who he is. He wasn't acting like he could see. And so Jesus says, I'm the one you're speaking to. The man who healed you early of a physical blind blindness is actually the one who wants to heal you now with spiritual blindness. And so Jesus was able to open up that man's eyes because he wasn't acting like he could see. And so I think that's the problem that we have on social media. You are being persecuted by so many people who are walking around blind, but they act like they can see. And those are the people who are making the response videos. Mostly those are the people who are attacking Christians. And I'll say those are the people, people who have a lot of, who have a lot of things to say about Christians, but they have produced very little things in the Christian community that has been mon. Like, like they're not really writing books

[Jackie Hill Perry]

or they don't gotta be a metric.

[Preston Perry]

No, but what I'm saying is when you see, when you see, when you see the average person, and I'm talking about this is my assessment over 15 years, the average person who is, is attacking people online, you cannot be really doing a work for the Lord if that's your main aim, if that's your main goal. And I think a lot of times throughout the years, I'm not even just talking about us, I've looked and saw certain persecution that some Christians or I felt like done a work for the Lord are receiving. And I'm like, they've actually done a lot for the body of Christ. And I'm looking at the person that's persecuting them or talking about them, and they haven't really given anything to the body of Christ except slander, except accusations, except videos. And so I think that's something to look at because when you look at the Pharisees, the Pharisees really didn't any. They didn't contribute anything to the body of Christ like that. They just contributed like, like laws, restrictions, you know what I'm saying? Rules. But they actually didn't give anything of value, the substance of the body of Christ. So even pay attention to who's producing something for the Lord, because those who are producing something for the Lord, that's, that's probably the ones that's being attacked.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Interesting.

[Preston Perry]

Does that make sense?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It does. I don't know if I, I think there's more nuance to it, but.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, of course there's more nuance to it. I'm just saying. Not in every case. But what I'm saying is if, if

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't, I say that because there have been a lot of people who have been productive in Christ and they did, they didn't know him either. I, I, so, so I, I feel like it's a little.

[Preston Perry]

I, I, I, I, and I do. That's why I said, like, you gotta take it like, with a, you know. But what I'm saying is, like, in a situation where, like, the average, just look at the average time people are being attacked online and just, just look at the person that's attacking.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I guess I want to bring it out of online and into local church and relational stuff.

[Preston Perry]

Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you're talking about local, I think it's different. I'm just saying a lot of times the persecution does come from people who are not doing anything.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, sure.

[Preston Perry]

That's what I'm saying.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Sure. Yeah. I think when I look at Paul and Jesus in particular, I think when you are being opposed by people who have a form of godliness within church systems and institutions, I feel like there are two categories usually where that opposition will come from, which is when your preaching of the gospel exposes their hypocrisy. And so you see that with Jesus, where he's like, yeah, y' all mad at my disciples. Cause they ain't washed their hands and your heart is wicked. Like, it's, it's out of, it's out of the heart that defiles a man, not like what goes into a man doesn't defile him is what comes out of him. They got beef with that because they're like, they're thinking, because I wash hands, because I got circumcised, because I keep all the laws, because I do all the things, then that, that, that somehow dis, like, absolves them from the reality that their hearts are a problem. And so I think at any point you point you poke at a legalist's actual motives, they're not going to like you.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But two, I think they're the, the, I feel like if we do talk about social media, I was like, I feel like there's a lot of law being masqueraded as holiness. And I think if someone had the audacity to simply say that we are saved by grace through faith alone and to stand 10 toes down on that, we're going to be accused of the same Things that Paul was, you're giving people license to sin. And he's like, no, you actually don't know the gospel if you think that that's what grace produces. And so I, I, I, I think, I like, I think when you see, when you experience that persecution, I think though, are those are two avenues by which you've poked the bear.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Is grace and hypocrisy being exposed?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, and I get it. I think we're saying the same thing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I wasn't responding to you.

[Preston Perry]

No, I know you, I know, I know you wasn't. But even when you just talked about legalism, the thing that popped in my mind is when I've, it was, it was a time in my Christian walk when I was, I was, I was like legalistic. And in those moments I produced very little for the body of Christ because a lot of my aim was to expose, was to critique. And it wasn't until I understood grace for myself where the Lord was able to truly use me. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm thinking like just, just, just know that the person who, who's often being used to persecute the body of Christ a lot of times are very legalistic and they're being used to actually attack people who are actually free in Christ and producing in Christ because they're impacting the world. And so I think that we have to understand.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Can I push back? Okay, push back because I, okay, I don't disagree. I don't want you to be misheard because the assumption can be that I have to produce a lot to be impactful. And I don't think, I know that's not what you're saying and I know that's not true.

[Preston Perry]

So let me clarify.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because a stay at home mom is producing a lot.

[Preston Perry]

I know that's what I'm saying. So when I'm saying a lot, I'm not even saying online, I'm just saying an effective Christian.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm just saying so you can be clear.

[Preston Perry]

That's what I'm saying. So even if you're online or if you're in your local community. Right, because, and when I, oftentimes when I think about producing a lot, I'm not thinking about the Jesus who's preaching on a sermon on the mound. I'm actually thinking about the Jesus who's pointed to 12 men who eventually changed the world. And so one, we gotta understand that God does a lot in the, not in the public eye. And so that's what I mean. I'm talking about just like the enemy wants to affect the effect of Christian.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So let me put close on what you're saying. Ultimately you're saying that help me wife. That there are people within the body, whether online or in local church or in local churches who will persecute through criticism, through accusation, through slander. Usually guys under some discernment ministry or whatever the case may be. And in essence they are opposing people who are actually fruitful.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So that's the distinction is they're hypercritical, but this person is actually bearing fruit because it's only in Christ that one can bear much fruit. So there's a distinction between do they got a lot to say say, or do they have a lot of fruit? And that's how we distinguish between who we're listening to.

[Preston Perry]

Absolutely.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's what you're saying.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing that we have to do online is just develop a discernment to say what has truly been fruitful. Who has truly being fruitful. Stop looking at the arguments, stop looking at who talks the best. Stop looking at who can string a video together. Let's pay attention to who's actually being fruitful. And then we might start seeing. Okay, now we can start to identify who's actually being used by the devil. That's all I'm saying that if we, that if, that if our discernment helps us to recognize fruit. Good, then we can recognize who the enemy is using.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because you will know a tree, it's fruit, it bears.

[Preston Perry]

That's in the local community, that's online. And I think we don't know how to recognize fruit. So we don't know how to recognize people who are being used by the devil. And so it's like, okay, like if a Jackie Hill Perry has written a book called Gay Girl. Good God, no. I gotta bring you up because we talked about the thread in the beginning of the thing. You literally wrote a book that has broken up same sex marriages around the world. Why wouldn't somebody say happy Pride month, Jackie Hill Perry and have all the secular people mad? You literally God used you like. And it's not even to praise you. It's this is to say, that's obvious, guys. That's literally obvious. Like you meet women all the time.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't think people are ignorant of why and how people in the world persecute. I'm saying I think we're ignorant of when that comes up from the church. Can I tell this because we don't know that people in the church Ain't in the church.

[Preston Perry]

Can I tell this story real quick? I want to tell the story of what happened just in the conference that I just left. Actually, the. No, seriously.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Trying to talk about the legalist.

[Preston Perry]

This is so powerful.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay? I want people to discern Legalist.

[Preston Perry]

This is so powerful because I think. Because the pastor who and we got lease appeals here.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We get what we.

[Preston Perry]

The pastor who church that I was at, he's coming next. He's doing our podcast next. But I was at this church or whatever, and I was in the hallway going to the green room, and they walked me up to this lady in the hallway and they was like, I want you to meet somebody. And so she walked up, she said, they gonna have to get off my girl Jackie Hillb. It was real funny. And then I was like, what you talking about? And then she told me she was talking about the thread. And then she got emotional, she started to cry. And I'm like, what's wrong? And she was like, Nine years ago, seven years ago, I read Gay Girl, Good God, and I broke up with my wife. And I've been in this church ever since. And I just thought that was so powerful. It was very beautiful. Shacky hates stuff like this. When I'm like, I hate it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, you're overstating.

[Preston Perry]

I just. I just kind of feel like that's what I'm talking about. We have to understand, it's. It's bigger than you, it's bigger than me, it's bigger than anybody else out here preaching the gospel. The enemy hates the glory of God. He hates the glory of God, and he hates people who have. Who God has used to snatch people out of darkness. And so I think that we just have. Have to remember that, y'.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

All.

[Preston Perry]

That's all I'm saying.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I want to close in saying that, yeah, any. Anytime you attempt to be a faithful disciple of the Lord, there will be some degree of opposition. And that opposition is something that we leverage to preach the gospel. I think that opposition is something that also God allows to prune us and to disciple us. I've experienced where certain levels of opposition within ministry made me want to stop, which then revealed that it's like there's parts of me that only want to do it, wants to be faithful when it's easy. And so I think it also prunes selfish ambition and self centeredness out of you. I say all that to say, like, opposition is gonna happen, but you gotta keep building. And that's why I wanted to turn to Nehemiah. Cause I think reading Nehemiah has really been helpful for me when it comes to building anything of eternal value. While you do that work, you gonna have to face some st. So while Nehemiah and all the people, they over here trying to build the wall back, they got some opposition from Sand Ballot and all these people who don't want them to build the wall back because they don't want God's glory to be built back up in Jerusalem. And one of the sentences I Love is verse 23 and no, chapter four, verse 21. So we labored at the work, and half of them held the spears from the break of dawn until the stars came out. I also said to the people at that time, let every man and his pass the night with them at Jerusalem, that they may be on guard for us by. By night and may labor by day. So neither I, nor my brothers, nor my servants, nor the men of the guard who follow me, none of us took all off our clothes. Each kept his weapon at his white hand. That actually ain't even the text I was trying to reference. Ultimately, you'll find it is while they were building the wall, they were building with one hand, and they had a weapon in another hand. And the weapon is not to fight people who disagree. The weapon is not to fight people who don't understand. The weapon is to fight the devil. We. We fight with spiritual weapons because ultimately, he does not want what you have to offer to work. He does not want what you have to say to reach the people. And so we don't look at people like enemies. We look at people like, you just don't see. Like I didn't see. And so the same grace that I had or the same grace God gave me is the same grace I got to give you. And so I'm. I'm a work. I'm a work with one hand, and I'm a fight with another hand. And so that was it.

[Preston Perry]

That's really good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Expect it. Don't be surprised by it.

[Preston Perry]

That's really good. I just feel led to do this, you know, I want to. I think we should end because in the beginning, we talked about the girl who made the thread. I'm going to pray for her only because, you know, when she made the thread, I mean, a lot of people kind of start, you know, riding for you, and everybody didn't respond in the same way. And so I think in light of all what we talked about, I just want to pray for her and just pray that the Lord would just meet her, you know, and so let me just pray real quick. Dear Lord, we thank you Father, for your goodness. We thank you, God, for your grace and mercy. We just pray, Lord, for the young lady who made the thread. We don't know what motivated her to make the thread. We don't know what she's going through. We don't even know if what was DM to me is true. But we do know that she's made in your image that before the foundations of the earth that you knew her and probably not knew her in a way that you know salvation, but you created her. And so, God, I just pray that you, God, in your sovereignty, will meet her exactly where she is. I pray, God, that in all of this situation that you will reach her and that this can be turned into a testimony one day of your faithfulness and your goodness. I just pray that people who are listening to this podcast will know how to respond to people in the world who are not just responding with persecution or slander, but also they can see the hurt and the pain that they would meet people where they're at, respond in a way that's glorifying to you, and it will ultimately lead people to your. To your fold. And so we love you, we thank you, we believe you for all we have. Acts in Jesus name Amen with the

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hob. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.