I Believe, But Help My Unbelief

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Believe, But Help My Unbelief"

Podcast: With The Perrys
Hosts: Preston Perry & Jackie Hill Perry
Release Date: March 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid and insightful episode, Preston and Jackie Hill Perry (frequently referred to as Amanda in the transcript, but commonly known as Jackie) dive deep into the theme of faith, belief, and especially the lived reality of wrestling with unbelief as Christians. Through real-life anecdotes, biblical exploration, humor, and practical advice, they seek to answer:

• How does one grow in faith?
• What does it look like to struggle with belief?
• How do spiritual disciplines and heart-level repentance interact with trust in God?

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Key Discussion Points

1. Banter & Setting the Tone (00:10–08:02)

• Opening Jokes: Episode starts with playful banter about sports team loyalties (Chicago Bears vs St. Louis Rams) and city pride, laced with typical Perry humor and back-and-forth ribbing.
  • Memorable moment (03:12): Preston jokes, “Next time when we have prayer at church, I want you to be just as loud for the Lord as you are for the Bears.”
• Transition to Main Theme: The laughs set a relaxed, relatable tone before they shift to discussing faith.

2. What is Faith and How Does it Grow? (08:04–15:41)

• Defining Faith (08:04): Preston reads from Hebrews 11, emphasizing, “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen…” (08:18).
• Personal Growth: Jackie shares that her faith initially grew under good leadership and through discipleship, but stresses that mere head knowledge isn’t enough.
  • Jackie (09:13): “How I grew in faith initially was getting under good leadership who taught me how to read the Scriptures... but you can be under good leadership and read the Word without actually walking in faith.”
• Learning Through Failure: Jackie describes how God allowed her to encounter failure so that she'd learn to trust Him, not her own wisdom or strength. (10:58)
• Faith vs. Works: Preston observes, “Faith isn’t just a bunch of ideas that are true in my head... my faith is put into practice when my reliance and surrender to that truth shows up in the things that I do.” (13:34)
• Root of Sin: They emphasize that “at the root of all sin is unbelief” and not just pride.

3. The Internal Struggle: Unbelief & Self-Condemnation (11:55–18:32)

• Identifying Doubt: Jackie discusses her early Christian walk: “I didn’t really believe God saved me holistically... I often condemned myself instead of running to Christ.” (11:55)
• Practical Outworking: Both discuss that genuine faith becomes visible in our decisions, our behavior, and especially when challenges come (suffering, trials).
  • Preston (15:05): “Underneath so much hustle is unbelief that God will provide. Underneath a desire for fame is unbelief that God sees you.”

4. Mimicking Faith vs. Authentic Faith (15:41–18:42)

• Performing for Acceptance: They explore the dangers of externalizing faith—trying to “mimic” faith through works without heart transformation.
  • Jackie (16:01): “Our works are filthy rags to the Lord without faith.”
• Evidence of Faith: Galatians 5 and the fruit of the Spirit are presented as indicators; lack of fruit exposes areas of unbelief.

5. Unbelief, Sin, and the Heart's Desires (18:32–28:33)

• Describing Temptation: Preston unpacks Genesis 3, stating, “When we are tempted to sin, we are being tempted to distrust something about God’s nature.” (21:03)
• Both reflect on Eve’s temptation: Was something inside her (curiosity, desire) that led to unbelief even before sin?
• Human Condition: “Our natural disposition now is not to trust God. We’re born trusting everything else but Him.” (27:13)

6. Covetousness, Idolatry & the Practicalities of Doubt (28:33–31:09)

• Modern Examples: Jackie names how “lust of the eyes” and coveting (“you start looking at God with a side eye because you’ve been looking at so many other things”—29:54) drive practical unbelief.
• Romans 1 Connection: Preston explains how we take good things (food, friendship) and turn them into “God things” through disordered love.

7. Apologetics and the Role of Evidence in Faith (31:09–36:38)

• The Place of Evidence: Jackie links apologetics to faith-building, not just winning arguments.
  • “Apologetics is ultimately meant to increase our faith because we study the evidence...” (31:32)
• Sharing Faith with Others: They discuss strategy in evangelism—moving from argumentation (head) to Holy Spirit-led encounters that reach the heart.

8. Deep Repentance: Going Beyond Surface-Level Change (38:38–46:32)

• Getting Underneath Behavior: Preston emphasizes the need to address not just “what” people do, but why—they share how true heart change happens when we root out underlying beliefs. (e.g., lying rooted not in the act itself, but in fear of man or people-pleasing)
• Legalism vs. Faith: They critique superficial righteousness and explain how real repentance is specific, rooted in accurate self-knowledge, and always leads back to Christ.
  • Jackie (45:20): “In our communication and discipleship, getting to the soil and replacing the lie with faith is necessary for people to have deep and lasting sanctification.”

9. Works, Justification, and True Motivation (46:32–52:21)

• Works as Worship: Jackie argues that good works should flow from a place of faith and acceptance, not to “earn” God’s love.
• Illustration (54:01): Jackie’s soda bottle and Mentos analogy for the Holy Spirit’s transformative work—good works “erupt” naturally when the Spirit lives inside.

10. The Role of Spiritual Disciplines (57:54–63:54)

• Repetition and Remembrance: Jackie compares working out physically to spiritual disciplines—“If you can discipline yourself to go to the gym four days a week, you can discipline yourself to read the Scriptures.” (57:54)
• The ‘Memory Problem’: “At the core of our unbelief... is also we have a memory problem. We need to be reminded of God’s Word.” (59:14)
• Dependence, Not Self-Sufficiency: Preston references a John Piper illustration about needing to “fill up” every day and how daily spiritual disciplines force us to depend on God, not ourselves (61:54).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Preston (13:34): “Faith isn’t just a bunch of ideas that are true in my head... my faith is put into practice when my reliance and surrender to that truth shows up in the things that I do.”
• Jackie (45:52): “All good spirit-led teaching, all good spirit-led evangelism helps people with their faith. Because what it really does, it gives people the right language to learn about themselves, to repent to God.”
• Preston (46:32): “Faith is us coming in alignment with reality.… Unbelief is disagreeing with what's true.”
• Jackie (54:01): “The Holy Spirit is like the Mentos dropped into the soda. Our good works pour out naturally, not from our own effort but because something changed inside.”
• Preston (57:42): “God is very much after removing every opportunity for boasting. Walking by faith means saying ‘I didn’t save myself. I’m not saving myself. Only God gets the glory.’”
• Jackie (59:14): “We have to train ourselves. At the core of our unbelief and our lack of faith is not just sin—it’s a memory problem.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:10–04:00] – Opening sports banter and humor
• [08:04–09:19] – Introduce topic: “How does one grow in faith?”
• [10:58–13:34] – Jackie/Preston on personal journeys of trust and failure
• [15:05–16:34] – Dangers of mimicking faith via works; root of sin is unbelief
• [21:03–22:48] – Parallel between Eve's temptation and ours; identifying what about God we distrust
• [28:33–29:56] – Lust, covetousness, and their effect on faith
• [31:09–34:19] – The place of apologetics and evidence
• [38:38–46:32] – Deep repentance & getting to the root of heart issues
• [54:01–56:39] – Soda bottle/Mentos illustration of Spirit-led works
• [57:54–63:54] – How and why to practice spiritual disciplines

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Concluding Thoughts

The Perrys close the episode by reiterating the central role of faith: authentic Christianity is not about behavior modification but heart transformation, a daily, humble, and specific alignment with God’s reality, and a reliance on the Holy Spirit. Spiritual disciplines are essential not for earning approval, but for reminding ourselves of God’s truth and stirring up faith.

Jackie (63:40): “We need God’s help to please God...That could be a humbling thing.”
Preston (63:54): “And right there is where faith grows.”

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This episode offers a raw, relatable, and deeply practical look at faith’s challenges and joys, providing language, strategy, and motivation for both questioning believers and those seeking deeper trust in God.

Transcript

[Preston Perry]

All right. Hey. Hey, babe. Greetings.

[Amanda Perry]

I had a hat.

[Preston Perry]

Nope.

[Amanda Perry]

They worked last time.

[Preston Perry]

What you got on? Oh, Atlanta. What you had on the Bears had last time? Yeah. Fit.

[Amanda Perry]

You said, what?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Amanda Perry]

What's crazy is the last time I did that, I said, can I have that bear's head? You said, yeah. And then the next time I wore it, so many people in the comments was like, oh, that's the head. Jackie K. You on the podcast. I'm like, y' all be watching this spot. Y' all be.

[Preston Perry]

I only like the colors. You have, like, an affinity for the team. So it just felt like. Go ahead. Like, it's, like, personal for you.

[Amanda Perry]

I kind of feel like this is what I feel, babe. Cause I'm starting to get offended how you kind of dissed my team, but this is what I feel.

[Preston Perry]

Do you own them?

[Amanda Perry]

No.

[Preston Perry]

This is.

[Amanda Perry]

No, this. Let me submit. This is what I feel. I feel like. Because I'm from Chicago, you from St. Louis, and y' all ain't got no teams, y' all ain't got no football team, y' all ain't got no basketball team. The fact that you we both Midwest babies and your husband is from Chicago, I just kind of feel like you should be fans of the Bears and the Bulls. Just off gp. You should.

[Preston Perry]

So then what happens when I start throwing your hats in the trash? Like, what happens when I just start throwing them in the trash? Why would you ever do such a thing? I feel like you're talking crazy to me. I know.

[Amanda Perry]

I'm saying. I'm saying it's that you ain't gonna do this. Is that a reality?

[Preston Perry]

It's. I'm sorry that we are of low economic power.

[Amanda Perry]

Is that a reality that y' all

[Preston Perry]

can't afford to keep the Rams? I'm so sorry. Y' all had to turn it into East St. Louis.

[Amanda Perry]

By the day y' all had, the Rams traveled out West.

[Preston Perry]

I don't know what to do.

[Amanda Perry]

And y' all LA Rams knock my Chicago Bears out of the playoffs. And your mama down here talking about some. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like they're not even St. Louis no more.

[Preston Perry]

So you need to take that out on her. You understand? That's because I was upstairs. Just because the Ram has a horn

[Amanda Perry]

don't mean it's about.

[Preston Perry]

I was upstairs feeding your four children while you are yelling to a screen for some people that don't pay your rent. I don't know. I don't know.

[Amanda Perry]

First of all, we don't have rent.

[Preston Perry]

We have Mortgages. Mortgages. I don't. I don't know.

[Amanda Perry]

We're owners, bucko.

[Preston Perry]

I don't know what to tell you. They don't know you. They don't have no ads on here. They ain't sent you no jerseys. You just. You just wearing a hat and you're proud. For what?

[Amanda Perry]

First of all, do I. Do I.

[Preston Perry]

The Bible says all of that's gonna burn up. That's gonna burn up.

[Amanda Perry]

No. Do I say that? When you be all investing in big brother, like, why would you make that move? That's such a done move. That is such a done move.

[Preston Perry]

Why would you go there?

[Amanda Perry]

Why would you tell that to me?

[Preston Perry]

I wanna know. I wanna know. Next time when we have prayer, big brother, next time we have prayer at church, I want you to be just as loud for the Lord as you were. I would love to see it. Because you are charismatic when the Bears are playing. You are Pentecostal when the Bears are playing at church. Not quite. So we can keep going.

[Amanda Perry]

The Lord.

[Preston Perry]

We can keep going.

[Amanda Perry]

First of all, the Lord know my heart.

[Preston Perry]

He does. He sees the difference.

[Amanda Perry]

Look, look. Do I. I don't.

[Preston Perry]

Do you need to say, ignite my heart to feel fear your name.

[Amanda Perry]

That's what the Bible says. First of all, I don't do for the Bears. That I do the things that I do.

[Preston Perry]

See how loud you got?

[Amanda Perry]

I don't do for the Bears the things I do. I evangelize for the Bears. Do I teach the Bible for the Bears.

[Preston Perry]

That's what the last 10 minutes have. I.

[Amanda Perry]

Have I committed a podcast?

[Preston Perry]

The last 10 minutes was evangelism for the Bears. You said you would buy French tips for the quarterback. That's a tithe. That's a tithe. Get your money.

[Amanda Perry]

You're such a jerk.

[Preston Perry]

I'm saying, you cover me, I'mma cover you back.

[Amanda Perry]

Anyhoo, you just making sure. I ain't got no team.

[Preston Perry]

Don't care. I am on underlay.

[Amanda Perry]

Mama E, I, E, I, O, what's poppin?

[Preston Perry]

At least our rappers stay alive. Okay?

[Amanda Perry]

Why would you say such a thing?

[Preston Perry]

Nelly is alive and well. Him and Ashanti are doing it.

[Amanda Perry]

Why would you say such a thing?

[Preston Perry]

Your rappers, My God, I hit you

[Amanda Perry]

like this and you go, ugh.

[Preston Perry]

I'm just saying. Teardrops everywhere on everybody's faces.

[Amanda Perry]

Hey, man, shout out to Chief Keefe. He for believe he's the only one.

[Preston Perry]

Ah, man, you got the. You got the one. First of all, you got the one pulling down oranges. He like, I am so Scared that let me like he turned into comedy.

[Amanda Perry]

First of all, our legends are alive. Kanye is alive. Twista is alive. Lupe Fiasco is alive.

[Preston Perry]

Are they are they are they are. Kanye, Are you sure?

[Amanda Perry]

He is amongst the land of the living.

[Preston Perry]

He is in the Lord. He's in the sunken place. He's not here, Preston. He's not here. Lupe. You don't know one Lupe song Except the skateboard one. That man be on social media with a sword.

[Amanda Perry]

Kick Push.

[Preston Perry]

Have you looked at his social media?

[Amanda Perry]

Kick Push was a hit.

[Preston Perry]

He has a samurai sword on his social media. That's what your legends is doing.

[Amanda Perry]

But you don't even have a list. Yeah, Nelly. That's it.

[Preston Perry]

Are you sure?

[Amanda Perry]

Some say I'm wrong with messing them gone if you ain't mouthing money with mess Big gone Cause I'm flashy why you walk past me? I drive fast Call me Jeff Florenno.

[Preston Perry]

You know his songs, though. You know his songs?

[Amanda Perry]

We got one legend.

[Preston Perry]

I want you to sing one Clark Sister song. Go. Maverick City Elevation. Andre Crouch. Let's try it.

[Amanda Perry]

I can sing him.

[Preston Perry]

I'll wait.

[Amanda Perry]

Receive me, oh Lord.

[Preston Perry]

Who is that?

[Amanda Perry]

Receive me, oh Lord. You don't know.

[Preston Perry]

None of us do any of us know that song? None of us. He's just making it up.

[Amanda Perry]

Some say I'm wrong. I'm messing up. I know you know.

[Preston Perry]

You know every bear statistic, don't you? No. 17 Scriptures.

[Amanda Perry]

What we talking about?

[Preston Perry]

Faith in the Lord. You got my flesh up like. I just wanna. I wanna.

[Amanda Perry]

Some say I'm wrong with messing them go.

[Preston Perry]

I wanna cover your neck. I really do. But I'm not.

[Amanda Perry]

What we talking about? Babe. Talked about her little Louie. Because you feel me messed up.

[Preston Perry]

You open.

[Amanda Perry]

Hey, but y' all got some good fried rice.

[Preston Perry]

Okay.

[Amanda Perry]

Y' all got some good fried rice with the gravy little egg foo young. Y' all do that real good.

[Preston Perry]

The Bible says that love doesn't rejoice in evil or wrongdoing, but love rejoices in the truth.

[Amanda Perry]

Why did you just say that?

[Preston Perry]

That's how you get your heart right. Is you quote script? Why are you laughing?

[Amanda Perry]

Cause I got like five jokes about St. Louis. But I know it's gonna make you mad.

[Preston Perry]

No, I'm actually perturbed, but I wanna do it. Let's not do that.

[Amanda Perry]

I wanna Jones St. Louis.

[Preston Perry]

Okay, I'm gonna stop because I wanna walk by the spirit.

[Amanda Perry]

No.

[Preston Perry]

Can you. And not by the flesh.

[Amanda Perry]

Okay. All right. Before we move on. What the arch Mean.

[Preston Perry]

Cause to.

[Amanda Perry]

What the. I just want to know. That's a real question. I can explain to you.

[Preston Perry]

The bean person. All right. Hebrews chapter 13 talks about faith. Okay, turn to.

[Amanda Perry]

I'm gonna stop laughing.

[Preston Perry]

Cause we can cut. We can cut these cameras right now. I can go pick up the kids.

[Amanda Perry]

Okay, okay, I'm gonna stop.

[Preston Perry]

I'm out of school.

[Amanda Perry]

I'm a stop. Babe, I'm a stop. I'm a stop. I'm a stop.

[Preston Perry]

We. Y'. All. Y' all can have a 10 minute with the berries. It is fine with me as long as we got four ads bracketing the whole thing.

[Amanda Perry]

Oh, man.

[Preston Perry]

To pay our mortgages.

[Amanda Perry]

You keep making me laugh. I'mma keep going.

[Preston Perry]

All right. Hebrews 11 says, now faith is the assurance of things hoped for. And then you get on your phone.

[Amanda Perry]

No, I'm Turning to Hebrews 11 on my.

[Preston Perry]

On my app. Okay. You couldn't find it?

[Amanda Perry]

I can't find it. I just want to do it on my phone.

[Preston Perry]

Okay. Now, faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it, the people of old receive their commendation. By faith, we understand that the universe is created by the word of God so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith able, offered to God more accepted. Yeah, we just want to talk about faith because the thing the Bible says, the righteous shall live by faith. And so it seems important to figure out how to grow in faith. That's the specific question that I want us to answer is how does one grow in faith? I'll let you start Chicago, boy. You know, it's the greatest south side,

[Amanda Perry]

greatest city in the world. How I grew in faith initially was getting under good leadership who taught me how to read the Scriptures. And under good leadership was good discipleship. And reading his reading His Word.

[Preston Perry]

How does that produce faith, though? Because you have a lot of people who are under good leadership who read His Word but don't necessarily have faith.

[Amanda Perry]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a good question. So, yeah, the reality is this life is a vapor, meaning one day we will all die. And a lot of times we leave our families with nothing. Not because we don't love our families, but because we're just not educated on the importance of life insurance and how important it is to leave your family with something where you're gone. And so that's why we're thinking about as we get older, as our children get older, how can we leave our children something to work for and work with when we are off of this earth.

[Preston Perry]

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[Amanda Perry]

So I think for me, the Lord had to allow me to fail and do stuff on my own to really trust Him. That's my story. I think for me, when I first became a Christian, the Lord saved me. He did a work in my heart, converted me all the things, but I still wanted to do a lot of things on my own. I still trusted in my own wisdom. I still trusted. I was very prideful, very haughty. And I think God allowed things in my life to happen to show me that I can do it on my own and that I can actually trust him to be the God that I need and not myself.

[Preston Perry]

How do I go ahead? Yeah. Yeah. How do. How did you know? Even as a new believer, how do you know when you have a faith issue? Because is the presence of faith a feeling? Is it a conviction? Is it a. Like, how do you know?

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, I can only speak for myself. I realized that especially early on in my walk. I feel like when I think about my faith journey, it's in seasons. Early on in my walk, I didn't really believe that God saved me. Holistically. I believed that I didn't have faith that God was the God who can save me from anything. And so I often trusted in my own self. I often fell in sin or whatever and God had to show me. No, I pressed on. I didn't save you in portions. I saved you holistically and so what it looked like for me when I would fall in sin, I would condemn myself so much because I didn't believe that God actually, I didn't have faith that God actually defeated the sin for me. And so I think I struggle with a lot of self condemnation because I really didn't. My faith wasn't really rooted in the Lord like how he wanted it to be. And so I condemned myself instead of just running to the cause. I believe that when you truly believe that you have like your faith is rooted in Jesus, when you fail, you will run to him and not run to shame, run to guilt, run to pity, run to all the things. And so for me, I think my confidence started to grow and my faith started to grow when I realized, no, I'm actually being forgiven. It's just me not exercising that faith, not me not exercising that forgiveness, me not exercising that power. And so I think that's one of the first lessons the Lord kind of showed me. He's like, preston, no, I've saved you. You can actually trust me with your life more. Yeah. What about you?

[Preston Perry]

Well, I kind of want to speak to like, how people can assume that faith is just the acknowledgement or awareness of a biblical doctrine or truth, where, you know, that is a part of developing faith. Faith, like what does the Bible say? Faith coming by hearing and by hearing of the word of God. And so you need to know truth to develop and grow in and walk by faith. But faith isn't just. I got a bunch of ideas that are true in my head. If when I do things, I rebuke that, I actually don't trust what I know, I don't believe what I know. Like, I can have biblical truths and ideas in my mind, but my faith is put into practice when my reliance and yielding and surrendering to that truth manifests itself in the things that I do. Faith without works is dead, right? So if I believe that God is a provider, then that should inform my I hustle or the lack thereof, right? Because you have people who got like major hustle energy. And when you interrogate the reason why they are so ambitious or the reason why they work so hard, underneath that is unbelief that God will actually provide daily mana.

[Amanda Perry]

That's good.

[Preston Perry]

You have those who may idolize fame, you know what I'm saying? And the reason why they idolize fame is because underneath that is unbelief that God sees you and, and loves you and delights in you and knows you. So the way that manifests is you want attention from other people. When, if you dealt with that faith, then it actually would help you relinquish control. And so I just, I don't know. I don't want people hearing us talk about faith and think just stuff that stays up here. It's like, no, it has to be stuff that moves out into the way we live our lives.

[Amanda Perry]

When you say that, though, I often think. Think about. Because I think that's true. You know, if we have faith, I think it should. That faith should reflect. Yeah, right.

[Preston Perry]

Or you don't have faith.

[Amanda Perry]

It should be evident. But I think that also can play a part of why people do a whole bunch of work to try to mimic faith.

[Preston Perry]

Explain.

[Amanda Perry]

Because it's like how the Bible tells us that our works are filthy rags, doodle rags, Scubalon. Right. Like, you know, that's what he really meant. It's like rags they used to wipe their butt with. That's our works to the Lord without faith. Right. And so I think a lot of times people be working. Like when you see the Hebrew Israelites out there, it's like they're trying to pretend that they have faith by their works. Right. And so what is the difference?

[Preston Perry]

Well, the difference is the object. Because they don't have faith in Christ. Yeah, they have faith in some other thing.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah. But what I'm saying, so they have faith.

[Preston Perry]

They just don't have faith in the right object. And so because you don't have faith in the right object, the right person, then that faith doesn't justify, sanctify, save.

[Amanda Perry]

I guess a better question is how can the Christian know that their faith, that their works is produced by faith and not by themselves.

[Preston Perry]

Fruit. So in Galatians 5, it tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, self control, kindness. Da da da da da da da da. If I have faith in Christ in his Word, then it's going to produce spiritual fruit. You know what I'm saying? And so if I'm not producing spiritual fruit in different areas or components in my life, then that actually reveals to me the areas where I don't actually have faith.

[Amanda Perry]

That's good.

[Preston Perry]

And so I think that's why Jesus or God says, you worship me with your lips, but your heart is far from me. The reason why there's a disconnect between the lips and the heart is because there's unbelief there. You know what I'm saying? And so it is much easier for me to praise God by singing a song than it is to identify the parts of that song that I actually need to believe Monday through Friday, you know what I'm saying? So I'm like, God is good all the time, but every week, every day, I'm complaining. I don't actually believe he's good, because if I believed he good, I probably wouldn't be complaining. I would be rejoicing. And so I think I'm always kind of thinking through, processing and interrogating the places in my life where there is unbelief or even where there is increasing and growing faith, so that I'm not always discouraged because I think it's important. And I'm gonna say this. I remember I was listening to Paul Washer when I was a new believer, and he was the first person for me that made the connection between unbelief and sin. Because he was basically saying, at the root of all sin is unbelief. I had been taught, and it's true, I have been taught at the root of all sin is pride, which is true, but pride is a manifestation of unbelief.

[Amanda Perry]

That's good.

[Preston Perry]

You know what I'm saying? And so I think a lot of times people are attempting to be holy without dealing with the. The faith component that keeps them from growing in holiness. Does it make sense?

[Amanda Perry]

It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. Like, because. Like, what makes. Because I think God wants all his kids to have faith in him. But the reality is, even the strongest Christian, sometimes your faith is going to affect.

[Preston Perry]

Waver, for sure.

[Amanda Perry]

Struggle. What does it look like for your faith to waver? And in those seasons, how do you cling to the Lord?

[Preston Perry]

My brain is so specific that I'm thinking about what wavering looks like rather than.

[Amanda Perry]

Or just struggling. Struggling.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I'm being too literal. I think one faith is. There's a struggle for faith every day. I think there are seasons where faith is a little harder, particularly seasons where there's suffering, seasons where there's difficulties, seasons where there's an intensity and increase in trials. Like, surely the faith of Jesus was being particularly tested in the wilderness versus when he was being baptized by John, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's a different level in which his faith was being practiced. And so I think. I think the biggest thing is, again, what is it about God that I am struggling to believe? That has to be the question. Because our faith is in a person, not just these doctrinal beliefs, but how these doctrinal beliefs inform what I believe about him. And so, for example, I'VE been saying this for a long time, but I feel like it's important. In Genesis 3, before that, God told Adam, hey, eat from every tree in the garden. The day you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die. What is that? That's God's word. That's a manifestation of his character. He is truth telling, he is wise, he is good. Satan comes to Eve, says, you will not surely die the day you eat of it. You will be like God, knowing good and evil. Now we have two supposed truths. We have God's word and we have Satan's wor word. At that point, she has to believe somebody.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

At that point, what she does is she relies, trusts, and surrenders to the word of Satan, which implies that she does not believe that God is telling the truth. She does not believe that God is just. She does not believe either that God is for her. And so when we are struggling with unbelief, when we are tempted to believe the words of the evil one, it is. He is causing us to doubt something about God's word and God's nature. So for me, me, if I am struggling with, Lord, we have two mortgages. You know what I'm saying? I would love for us to be able to get this or that and pay for this or that or be generous and this. Like, if the issue is a financial anxiety, which I think a lot of people can relate to, then the question is, do I believe him when he says that the birds neither sow nor, nor reap nor gather into barns, but your heavenly Father, like he, what does it say?

[Amanda Perry]

Provides for them?

[Preston Perry]

He provides for them. How much more value are you? Do I believe I'm valuable to God to the point that he actually is gonna supply all of my needs? You know what I'm saying? And the reason I'm able to stir up faith is because I've identified the area of unbelief as it relates to God's nature. And I found something in the scripture to replace my doubt with. You know what I'm saying? And so what am I doubting? Let me search the scriptures. Let me get in. Because I think some people think the way I grow in faith is by just talking about my unbelieving. It's like, no, you got to get in the book. You got to read the book. You got to meditate in the book. You got to be around friends and people and family and music and tv. Not tv. Well chosen is helpful. That helps stir up faith. That's good.

[Amanda Perry]

I Have another question for you.

[Preston Perry]

I said a lot.

[Amanda Perry]

I know you said a lot, but

[Preston Perry]

I think about faith a lot.

[Amanda Perry]

I know. And that's the reason why I got so many questions for you.

[Preston Perry]

Some stories are so familiar, we almost forget what they cost. Have you ever wondered what it would be like if the cross itself could tell its story? That's exactly what. If the Tree Could Speak, written by Tim Tebow does this beautifully written narrative walks you through Jesus's crucifixion from the perspective of the wooden cross, the closest witness to that day. And this isn't the kind of book you rush through. It's one that makes you pause to feel the weight of his humanity, to consider the mercy in his suffering, and to see the redemption of something once meant for shame become a symbol of hope. Even if you've heard the Easter story a hundred times, this helps you to see it with fresh eyes. What you get from this book will stick with you long after you put it down.

[Amanda Perry]

I personally think that the art of creative storytelling is lost in a lot of ways. And what better way to tell a story from the perspective of the tree when it comes to the cross? And so I think this is a great book to grab our imaginations, our attention, and help us to meditate on the cross in a way that we've never meditated on the cross before. So I think this is dope.

[Preston Perry]

Step inside the story, hear the witness, and experience Easter like never before. With if the Tree Could Speak, available on Amazon. I really encourage you to check it out. If the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow, available on Amazon or see the link in the show notes.

[Amanda Perry]

Because I do think that the reality is you taught on Genesis so much. Right.

[Preston Perry]

That.

[Amanda Perry]

Right. That. That Satan did kind of make Eve doubt what the Lord said.

[Preston Perry]

Make.

[Amanda Perry]

Not make, but like. Like tempt. Right. But I guess my question is how much of our lack of faith is able to be tempted by Satan due to our desires?

[Preston Perry]

Huh? Huh?

[Amanda Perry]

And the things that we really want. Because Satan has something to work with.

[Preston Perry]

Right?

[Amanda Perry]

And so I think that, like, when it comes to our lack of faith,

[Preston Perry]

does it make sense? Yeah. Like, I understand if you feel like you gotta.

[Amanda Perry]

No, no, no. If you.

[Preston Perry]

If you.

[Amanda Perry]

If you got me.

[Preston Perry]

No, because with Jesus, one thing that

[Amanda Perry]

always

[Preston Perry]

ministers to me about him is that when he says that the God of this world is coming, but he has no claim on me. Right? And so we say that Jesus was tempted in all respects, yet without sin. And Jesus was in fact tempted, but his temptation was external, not internal.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah. Because you study Genesis. Well, Genesis 3 more than me. Because you taught on it a bunch. But what was in Eve that even wanted her to be like God?

[Preston Perry]

Well, at that point she was sinless. Nothing was in her.

[Amanda Perry]

I'm saying that curiosity though. I'm just wondering, like, because look, God gave you the command. He didn't give you the command. He gave you. He gave Adam the command. Right. And he entrusted Adam to uphold the integrity of his family. Right. And so he.

[Preston Perry]

They.

[Amanda Perry]

You, you know what God said.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Amanda Perry]

Right. And here comes a serpent.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Amanda Perry]

Telling you, God, I want you to eat from this tree knowledge. Because he know if you be eaten, you know, you, you'll become like God, knowing good and evil. Like, like what is that? That, that, that knows the word of God, knows what God said. And what is that in her? I'm not, I don't know if it's sin. Like what, what is Satan able to work with? Does it make sense?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if we could parse through all the different elements of what was happening in her int. Internally just because we know that sin enters into their condition when Adam eats the fruit. But there is obviously unbelief and doubt and a untethered curiosity at play in her interaction with the devil. And I was comparing us and Jesus because there was nothing in him that would be. Because even the word temptation, it has this idea of being drawn away from. We see that in James being enticed, being dragged away. And there's nothing in him that can be enticed or dragged away towards a sin. And that's why I say there's a distinction between his temptation and ours because his was external. Ours is external and internal. Like the devil can tell us something and entice us in a way where it came from outside of us. Man, you should do this or you should do that. But it also appeals to something inside us. And I think that's why the Lord tells us to put to death what is earthly in us. That's why he tells us to guard ourselves from those passions that wage war against our soul. And so what was happening her, I'm not sure what is happening in, in us. We know from the Scriptures which is born sin. We, our natural disposition now is not to trust God. Yeah, that, that's. We're born not trusting him. We're born trusting everything else but Him.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah, yeah. And I, and I know she wasn't born insane. I know they were. Their condition was way different. But it's always fascinating to me how she was like. She was able to be deceived to believe that God was withholding a good thing from her.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Amanda Perry]

Which is scary, you know, but it's us. And now we live in this condition because of. You know that, but.

[Preston Perry]

Cause I want people to understand when you are tempted, you are literally being tempted to distrust something about the nature of God. And so it was revolutionary for me when I heard Paul Washer make the connection between unbelief and sin. Because now I knew how to fight sin better. Because it's like, if you don't make that connection, then you're gonna be punching the wind instead of punching the right enemy. You know what I'm saying? And so for her to. You're like, God is holding something back for me. That. How much stuff do we get into? Because we ultimately believe that God is not for us. Like, you ain't for me. You ain't on my side. You know what I'm saying? And so you go into that relationship because you think that human being is more for you than God. You know what I'm saying? We get into all kinds of practices because we look at God with these really skeptical eyes. And it's Jesus that has to undo that.

[Amanda Perry]

And the reason why we look at him with those skeptical eyes, the lust of the eye. A lot of times we doubt God's goodness for us because we're lusting after so many other things. It's like we lusting after that marriage or that job. And it's like you not even meditating on what God has already given you.

[Preston Perry]

Covetousness.

[Amanda Perry]

And so now you start looking at God with a side eye because you've been looking at so many other things with the buckeye.

[Preston Perry]

Covetousness, you know.

[Amanda Perry]

And so, yeah, that's where idolatry and doubt kind of starts. It's like, God, you don't love me because you're not blessing me like this. And it's like, I'm blessing you in a way that I'm not blessing anybody. But you can't see it because you

[Preston Perry]

got the lusty eye, the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh. And that was at play in the garden. You know, it says that she looks at the tree and she sees that it's a delight to the eyes, that it's desired to make one wise, and that it's good for food. And in Genesis, chapter one, it tells us that the tree was a delight to the eyes, that it was good for food. And so there's a sense in which her perception of the tree is accurate yet inordinate. And it becomes inordinate because she sees good qualities, but then she. She exaggerates their benefits for her. And that's Romans 1, where it's like, yeah, food is good, food does taste good. But at the point that we turn into glutton, we've made food a good. Like, we made a good thing into a God thing. You know what I'm saying? Like, friendship is good, but at the point that we exaggerate that friendship, where it fills us and sustains us and quenches a thirst, we made a good thing into a God thing, which again. And faith is the reason that's not.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah. I think when it relates to faith, I think two things that we obviously need. It's actually in the scripture, one of the most famous descriptions about faith, when it says faith is the substance of things hopeful and the evidence of things not seen. I think that a lot of times when we think about faith, we need to meditate on that word hope, and we also need to meditate on that word evidence.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Amanda Perry]

And that's the reason why I love apologetics so much, because I think people look at apologetics like this intellectual or deep theological thing that Christian nerds do, and I wanna. I hope that kind of narrative changed because the evidence that God wants to. Has given us is supposed to increase our faith.

[Preston Perry]

I have a question.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

So if you, when you, like on BotV, were having conversations with a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon, how does. Cause. How does your argumentation, like, how does that lead to faith? Like, what's the strategy to get them from just understanding the argument into believing the Lord?

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah. So when I talk to, like, okay, so before. Before we even get there, I'll answer that. But let me just say this. I think primarily God wants, like, when he says faith is the substance of things hopeful and evidence of things I've seen. He was talking referring to believers. He wants us to have the evidence before for ourselves. I think the mistake that people make with apologetics, they want to. To tear down somebody else's faith before they actually have real faith in their own.

[Preston Perry]

Interesting.

[Amanda Perry]

Right. And so I think God wants us to have faith first. And I think apologetics is ultimately meant to increase our faith because we, like, we study the evidence because one, this book is a divine book, but it's also a historical record that can be proven with so many outside sources. Right. And so there's a reason why they found chariots and, you know, horse's bones at the bottom of the Red Sea because it was actually a flood, Right. It's a reason why, you know what I'm saying? There's over 3,000 scrolls of physical evidence of the scriptures and none of them contradict one another because of God has given us evidence. And so this historical work is supposed to increase our faith.

[Preston Perry]

That's good, right?

[Amanda Perry]

Before we go out and defend our faith with anybody. And so it starts with us first, but I think then when we have those apologetic arguments with Hebrew Israelites or Jehovah's Witnesses or even that even atheists or agnostics, I think the evidence is ultimately geared towards praying that they will come to faith. I know people don't like debates, but healthy debates is necessary. And I also think it's biblical, right? It says Paul sat outside the synagogue and debated them for hours. You know what I'm saying? And so I think what he was doing was he was, was providing their, the evidence that he has because he was a brilliant man even before he came to faith. And so he knew their poetry, he knew their literature, he knew their history. And so now as a Christian, what he was doing was he was providing evidence and hope that they might come to faith.

[Preston Perry]

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[Amanda Perry]

We went to a Weekend to Remember and it was very impressive how intentional they were with helping marriages flourish. We saw marriages from all walks of life, older marriages, younger marriages, and it was just dope to be in a room to see a ministry geared toward helping marriages. Yeah, to be better.

[Preston Perry]

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[Amanda Perry]

Because I have faith in mind.

[Preston Perry]

Yes. Because if, if it's just transmission of knowledge, your argumentation will be curated a certain way. But if it' to get at.

[Amanda Perry]

That's such a good question.

[Preston Perry]

Thank you. If it's the. I'm setting you up for your book, if it's to get at the heart and faith, how do you, you know what I'm saying?

[Amanda Perry]

You know what, what bothers me when I know a whole bunch of evangelists around the country, right? And a lot of apologists. And the more people learn, you know, what they talk about less what the Holy Spirit, the leading of the Holy Spirit. It's fascinating that the more you learn, the less you stop talking about the third member of the Triune Godhead, who God literally says, he's our helper.

[Preston Perry]

Good, keep going.

[Amanda Perry]

Right. And so even when Jesus, you said, help her. Even when Jesus commissioned them out in two. So even when Jesus was about to be crucified and ascend to heaven, he told Peter, he, Peter, he says, don't worry about what you will say, but in the moment the Holy Spirit will give you utterance. He will give you the words. And I think a lot of times when we're trying to bring somebody to faith, sometimes we can either be two sides of the extreme. We can be so like, faith, faith, faith, faith. God is going to do a work, but we don't explain nothing that's good. And then we could be so intellectual when we actually don't even hear the Holy Spirit saying, be quiet and hug her, you know what I'm saying? Like, and so I think it's a balance. And I think the Lord wants us to move in this balance of saying, no, like, I want to bring people to faith. It is not your words, but I can use your knowledge and wisdom that's good, you know what I'm saying? So I think it has to be a balance.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I think it's helpful to talk about because the reason I ask that is because we not only have to stir up faith in ourselves, but that's actually the job of a disciple, maker and an evangelist is to cultivate stir up faith in each other. Even in Hebrews it says, exhort one another every day while today is still today, so you will not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. And then around that same area it says that unbelief is evil. And so when I'm teaching, for example, I think a very particular strategy I have, and that strategy comes out of my temperament and how I deal with myself, which is I am always trying to help you see your heart, see the stuff that's in there, and then replace it with Christ. And so the way I do that is I usually will get to the bottom of stuff.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

You know, I never just talk about what you do. I'm talking about all the possibilities of why you do it. And in talking about why you do it, I'm also dealing with the belief systems that are underneath the behavior and then replacing that belief system with Christ.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

You know what I'm saying? And so, for example, when I talk about it could be like sexuality, you know what I'm saying? One of the belief systems is, yes, you have this passion, you have these desires, you have these affections, you have these attractions. But there are belief systems under that that govern the reason why you think you can walk in it. Right. And so you think you can walk in it. Most likely because you believe you're lord of your body, you think you can walk in it. Maybe because you're despairing. You, you, you try to stop, you try to think differently. You tried to be attracted to something else and it didn't work. So your weariness, your discouragement has affected your faith and God's ability to help you obey him. Like, there's all kinds of reasons for why we don't trust God. And so I think a reasonable way to disciple people and to evangelize with people is to discerning eye for why they do what they do and not just what.

[Amanda Perry]

Didn't I encourage you about your preaching, that you do that really well the last time you talked? Because I think that you do a really good job of getting underneath the behavior of people.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Amanda Perry]

And I think a lot of times, especially apologists, not all. I know some great apologists, but like, we focus so much on argumentation. You said this, but this is what the scripture says. And it's like, okay, telling people mere information a lot of times just won't cut it if you don't explain to them why they're doing what they're doing. Yes, because that's what Jesus did. See, but Jesus did it because he was God. He knew.

[Preston Perry]

Yes. Right.

[Amanda Perry]

So he met the woman at the well, where's your husband? She had five. Right. And so one, we're not even investigative enough to actually know people enough. And so I think that studying, like studying people behavior, studying why they do what they do, not just knowing information, but truly seeking to know. People will help you help other people in their faith. Yes, because I think that's what you do. You do it very well in your teaching. It's like you read a scripture, you talk about us, and then you get underneath our behavior, bring it up to the surface, and then give a solution with Jesus. And I think that's what teaching is

[Preston Perry]

because we have to see people have reasons for their disobedience. There are reasons and we're not robots. We are very logical, reasoning people. One of the, when you look at Jesus, he is always telling the Pharisees, yeah, you do that because you think this or you do that because you want that. And it's like he's exposing the heart he's in. If a person wants the Lord, that exposure will draw them into repentance and faith.

[Amanda Perry]

Right.

[Preston Perry]

If that person wants to love themselves and maintain their own idolatry, they will suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, therefore coming up with more reasons not to believe.

[Amanda Perry]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I love when you taught on false teaching. The Timothy. The Timothy sermon.

[Preston Perry]

Itching ears.

[Amanda Perry]

The itching ears sermon. Because one thing you talked about how people, they run to false teaching and sometimes people would just park there. You just want to listen to false teachers. And that's why the scripture says you accumulated teachers for yourself. But then you got underneath that. One of the things you told them, you said, man, one of the reasons why we run to false teachings is because we're trying to, to restore our dignity.

[Preston Perry]

Correct.

[Amanda Perry]

We want our dignity to be restored.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Amanda Perry]

Now, now if you just shame people, the scripture says you run into the fault and you just stay there and not get underneath. No, you, you, you, you want to be dignified.

[Preston Perry]

Do you know why I love this conversation?

[Amanda Perry]

Now you don't know how to. Now you know how to minister to that.

[Preston Perry]

I'm so glad your thigh isn't juicy. That would have made me feel away if when I touched it and it like went in, I would have been like, oh, you need to do some.

[Amanda Perry]

Every day I'm around you. I understand why 11 year old think she thinks just like you. What do you mean Eden is just like you? The fact that you touched my knee and you thought that because it was

[Preston Perry]

firm and I was like, oh, that's dope. If it went like in.

[Amanda Perry]

I've been doing my squats.

[Preston Perry]

Just one. Like we could.

[Amanda Perry]

You don't like, you don't like juicy men? No, dude, no.

[Preston Perry]

Did it we gotta change the subject. What I was gonna say was, what was I talking about? Oh, one of the potential consequences and disadvantages of only dealing with the what, what? And not dealing with the why is that you don't actually help people to repent on a deep level. And so what happens is people listen to your messages and they have. They have superficial fixes because they don't realize how deep the lie goes. So you have to get to the bottom of the thing so you can uproot it and then replace it with a truth that goes deep into the soil. Like, I'm dealing with soil, I'm not dealing with surface. And so I think when you, you know, I think that's what legalism is. Legalism is dealing with surface level righteousness.

[Amanda Perry]

You're doing this. Stop doing this. Yes, but if I don't know why I'm doing it, I really cannot repent.

[Preston Perry]

Especially when you understand the comprehensive nature of sin. Sin is so deeply rooted in who we are that it will manifest itself in me finding, like, how do I say it? Because John Owen talks about this in his book, if I tell you to just stop lying, and I don't deal with the idolatry to people pleasing that keeps you from being honest. You will just find, like, the people pleasing isn't fixed. For example, Tim Keller talks about surface idols and root idols. The surface idol is lying. The root idol is people pleasing. If I deal with the surface idol and you stop lying, but you're still a people pleaser, you're still not righteous,

[Amanda Perry]

it's gonna manifest itself in another area.

[Preston Perry]

So it's just. It's just gonna. It's gonna. You took out that flower petal, but it's gonna grow in a whole bunch of other ways. So you might not be a liar, but you're a manipulator. You might not be a liar, but you don't wanna be honest and be bold. You might not be a liar, but you're not courageous. Why? Because the root issue hasn't been dealt with.

[Amanda Perry]

That's so good.

[Preston Perry]

And so in our communication and our discipleship, getting to the soil and replacing the lie with faith is necessary for people to have deep and lasting sanctification.

[Amanda Perry]

Absolutely. Because what I essentially hear you saying, and I think this is the reality. I think all good spirit led teaching, all good spirit led evangelism helps people with their faith. Because what it really does, it gives people the right language to learn about themselves, to repent to God.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Amanda Perry]

It's saying, like, I'm not just Gonna show you what you're doing. I'm going to explain to you the manifestations, like the root manifestations of why you're doing it. And so now you can actually go with the right language and say, lord, Lord, I'm doing this because I have a unbelief problem, or I'm insecure, or I'm not just merely a liar. I'm a liar because I have a fear of man.

[Preston Perry]

Correct.

[Amanda Perry]

Deliver me from me.

[Preston Perry]

Your repentance becomes very specific.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah, that's so good.

[Preston Perry]

It becomes very specific. And in it becoming specific then your neediness and your dependent. Because really truly faith is us coming in alignment with reality.

[Amanda Perry]

Right.

[Preston Perry]

So for me to believe that God is good is for me to actually agree with reality. And so unbelief is disagreeing with what's true.

[Amanda Perry]

And for you to, and for you to come in agreement with reality, you have to come into agreement reality about the state of your life, about you, about you.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Amanda Perry]

It's like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna stop doing this. And this is the reason why a lot of people be walking around thinking they righteous because they stopped doing a whole bunch of behavior things.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Amanda Perry]

And it's like, no, it's your heart changed. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Why is tombs?

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah. Because Christianity is not about behavior modification. It's about, it's about a heart change. And so I think God is, he's always after the heart. He's not merely after behavior.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Amanda Perry]

He wants behavior to flow from a heart that has been changed.

[Preston Perry]

Yes. Because, because if, if it, it was. Yeah, yeah. He wants behavior that's rooted in faith. That's the reason why it says that anything not done from faith is sin. God, like, so what you, you are nice to that homeless person. That is beautiful. That was a good work. But it was a good work that will be burned up because it wasn't rooted in faith. So that is why the argument where people look at non Christians who are really moral and really ethical and say like, why wouldn't they get into heaven? Because everything they did had nothing about Christ at the center of it in their affections. And so he would, how can he be ignored, be blasphemed, be unloved? And, and not only was God not at the center of their affections in their so called good work, but also they were at the center of their affections because they want you to see that they did something good. Because when you read the book of John, for example, when God is talking about hypocrites, they pray because they want people to see them. They fast because they want people to see them. They do this because they want people to see them. Their Lord is people, not God. So even though they did these outwardly moral, ethical religions, God was not pleased because it had nothing to do with him in the first place. I think that's offensive to the Lord. For you to be over here patting yourself on the back for doing something

[Amanda Perry]

good that ain't Godly, but that's so good. But another. Yeah, that's so. That's so good. But another reason why I feel like faith done apart, like works done apart from faith, is extremely disrespectful for the Lord. Because the Bible tells us that faith, that we're saved by grace through Jesus Christ, by faith, not of our works. These any man could boast. Because when we do things for the Lord, that is not done in faith. It's actually a spit in the face of the finished work that he did for us on our behalf.

[Preston Perry]

Explain.

[Amanda Perry]

And so Jesus finished the works for us. Like, he came to do a work that we cannot do and to live a life that we cannot live. He did that for us. And so this is why the Scriptures, Paul tells us that any works that's added on to the works of Christ, let that works be accursed. He said, I don't want that works. Your works and God works together. I don't want. I want you to trust in the finished works of my Son alone.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Amanda Perry]

When you place your faith in the work that he did for you, now you are saved and forgiven through the work that he did. Now, your works is not because you're trying to work to please God, but it's really done out of what you said, faith. And I think anytime we try to add on to the works that God completed, it's kind of like, no, I came to work for y', all, and I actually completed that work for y'. All. Like, why are you working on your own? You know what I'm saying? I would be very frustrated if I did a work for my son out of sacrifice. And instead of him just resting in what I did for him, he's trying to add on to what I did. It's like, no, just accept what I'm giving you.

[Preston Perry]

I feel like you've had this discussion with Hebrew Israelites often, and I kind of want to touch on it here because it feels like on Brand, which is like, how do you respond to the person who's like, okay, Jesus Christ, finish a work. He wants me to have faith in him. Are you saying that I shouldn't work because I have faith?

[Amanda Perry]

Say that again.

[Preston Perry]

Some people could hear you say Jesus finished the work, and so just rest in his work and hear you saying, so. Are you saying I shouldn't work?

[Amanda Perry]

Yes.

[Preston Perry]

I should do nothing because I have faith?

[Amanda Perry]

That's a good question. No, what I'm not saying is that the Christian should not work. I think what the scripture says that, you know, we're saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is not about works. Least any man can boast. I think God wants every Christian to have good works. Our works is not the thing that justifies us in the eyes of God. That's the difference. When we do a work and to be justified on our own, we're trusted in our works alone to justify us as God. And so when the Bible says that faith without works is dead, it's not saying that if we don't work, our faith dies. It's saying that if we actually don't have good work, we probably never had faith to begin with. That is evidence you were never alive in Christ. And so what? So our good works is not what justifies us in the eyes of God. Our good works is evidence that we have been justified in the eyes of God.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Amanda Perry]

And it's a complete difference.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Amanda Perry]

And, and so now our work is done out of faith. Our works, it's evidence. Our work is an outpouring of the finished work that has been done in us through the person of Jesus Christ. And so when you look at it that way, you know, oh, I'm not working to be accepted by God. This work is actually worship.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Amanda Perry]

That's what real work's supposed to be for the Christian, not evidence. Not to justify us. Not to say, okay, you did this for me today.

[Preston Perry]

Good.

[Amanda Perry]

It's to say, know what? You saved me, you finished the work on my behalf, and now I'm good. I can worship you with good works.

[Preston Perry]

I. I think a very practical example of this is devotions. You know what I'm saying?

[Amanda Perry]

Break it down.

[Preston Perry]

You wake up in the morning, let's say you got an hour of time before you got to do something and you like, okay, I'mma pray and I'mma get in my work. Word works would say, I'm going to pray and I'm getting going to get in my word to make sure that God knows I love him. To. To make sure that God is good with me. To know that God has a smile on his face and gives me a thumbs up like, good job. You spent 45 minutes in Leviticus. You are, you are my favorite. That's works. Faith says, I'm going to get up. And when I got up, I was accepted. I was accepted before I prayed. I was accepted before I worshiped. I was accepted before I read this book. I. I am in Christ, the righteousness of Christ. I am united with him, so I am fully accepted before I do anything. I am much like Jesus when he was baptized, before his ministry started, he said, this is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. Before he fought the devil, he was well pleasing. Before he did anything, he was well. So when you woke up up, teach us. He was already loving you and accepting you. So that means that when I open up the Scriptures, I open up the scriptures from a place of rest and not retribution. I'm not trying to pay God back. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just here because I love you.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

That's the difference is I'm, I'm, I'm engaging with my spirit. So that means I don't have to feel bad if I only did it for 10 minutes. I don't have to feel great if I did it for 45. Either way, I'm accepted.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah, that's. That's so good. That's so good. It's. Speaking of Hebrew Israelites, I had a conversation with them one day and we were talking about the same topic because, you know, Hebrew Israelites, they believe that we can keep the law perfectly. That's what they truly believe. Even though the scripture says that if you break one law, you've broken them all. You know what I'm saying? And so like, but they think they can keep the law perfectly. And so I was trying to explain this concept to them and they couldn't, they just couldn't hear me. And I believe that the Lord gave me this analogy. We was outside little Five Points and it was a soul soda bottle right there. And I felt like the Lord gave this to me. I was like, no, God does want our works, but he wants our works like this. And so I told him, I said, imagine that you are this soda bottle, it was empty. I picked it up or whatever and I said, imagine that the soda in out of here is good works. And God wants those good works to come out. And I said, I said, and that's how your faith, he wants you to display your faith. Now the way you're trying to display good works is you're manually pouring this thing over and allowing good works to flow out that way. God said that works is a curse. Any good works done on your own power, your own strength. He said, I don't want. Those works are filthy rags to me. So then he said, well, how are we supposed to get good works? I said, have you ever seen these YouTube videos where they put, like, this Mentos candy inside this soda thing and then shake it up and then all of the soda can kind of just pours out? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, I think that's what the Holy Spirit does to us. The Holy Spirit comes inside of us.

[Preston Perry]

So he's Mentos.

[Amanda Perry]

He's Mentos. That was the only thing that I can think of. I was like. I was like, notice that? Nothing. Like, nobody manually poured the soda out. But when this Mentos dropped down in this soda bottle, something changed on the inside. And I was like, that candy, whatever's in that candy, start messing with this little suds. And I said, and that thing opened and it just poured out. And I said, that's what the Holy Spirit does with us. When he comes inside of us, something changes on the inside. And so now our works is not done because we're trying to be justified by God. Our works is a natural response of the work that has been done inside of us. And he was like. I was like, the Lord, like, literally gave me that, like, right. Right then and there. And I think that's what it is. Like, God wants work, good works to flow out of us. But when good works flow out of us through the accepting his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit coming inside of us and changing us, he says, wow, those good works I could delight in because they're through my son and not your own work.

[Preston Perry]

Because God. I've said this before. God is very much after removing every opportunity for boasting.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

When we do anything apart from faith, we are creating space for us to boast in ourselves instead of in the Lord. And so that is one of the problems with legalism in all of its forms, whether that's with false religions or whether that's with Christian versions of Pharisees, is that we are. Because Pharisees are alive and well, we are doing things that give us room to take pride in ourselves. And that's why we love. We want to rely on our good work because we want to pat ourselves on the back. But to walk by faith is to say, I didn't save myself. I'm not saving myself. I'm not going to glorify myself so that when we get to heaven, it's all glory to you. Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive all glory and honor and praise and wealth. And why? Because you did it.

[Amanda Perry]

That's so good.

[Preston Perry]

You did it, so that's good. I also want to add, I want to ask the question, and then we can end. How do spiritual disciplines help you grow in faith?

[Amanda Perry]

Man? I think in the most practical way. We were talking about this. I was with one of my disciplees in Alabama last night. This event I had. And after dinner, we was at dinner literally talking about this, about reps, about getting, like, disciplining yourself to sit in the presence of God. Like what I've been doing lately, I've been going in the basement, working out and then getting in my word, working out, getting in my word, working out, getting in my word, doing things when you don't feel like it. Because even if you don't feel like it, you can't tell me that if you read a word that is alive, it is not going to change you. And so, like, I don't be feeling like reading my Bible, but every time I read my Bible, I see something in that scripture that helps me. And so I think disciplining yourself and saying, if you could discipline yourself to go to the gym four days a week, you could discipline yourself to read the Scriptures five days a week. Right. And so I think that discipline just reminds you of the goodness of God, like at the core of our unbelief and our lack of faith is not mere sin, but it's also we have a memory problem. And because we have a memory problem, we need to consistently be reminded of God's Word. And so we have to train ourselves.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's good.

[Amanda Perry]

The scripture tells us to train ourselves

[Preston Perry]

for godliness, for godliness.

[Amanda Perry]

And so it doesn't say, I'm gonna wake up every morning with you and give you the desire to read my Word. It does not say that. It's saying, no, you need to train yourself to have a discipline, to read my scriptures, but also you need to run to community. I don't think that God wants. Wants us to be on the island. I think that amongst the saints and amongst the brothers and the sisters, we'll be reminded of his goodness through hugs, through reminders, through care, through, you know, all the things.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I agree. I think prayer, Bible reading, fasting, fellowship, these spiritual disciplines, some would add even communion as a sacrament. All of it serves to grow you in the faith. And some came to my mind then it Went. When you start talking about reps and working out, oh, it's that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

And I think we all tend to move towards anything based on feeling. That's kind of how we function. I want a snicker, so I'm going to have it. I want this friendship, so I'm going to have it. I want this man, so I'm going to have him. I want, I want, I want. And it confuses us when that same degree of affection wanes with the Lord. And so because we don't feel like reading or feel like praying, we don't do it. And I would argue that even underneath that affection, or lack thereof is unbelief, unbelief. In your dependence, there is the presence of self sufficiency that is driving how you move. Because if I genuinely, genuinely believe that there is no good apart from you, if I genuinely believe that I can do no good thing apart from if I genuinely believe that if I abide in him, if I believe that I will bear much fruit, then there's an impulse to be like, I can't do anything. If I don't pray, it becomes like a, yeah, I gotta. You know what I'm saying? And so I think identifying that part of us that feels like we are good without God every day is necessary. And I'mma say this. John Piper has this clip where he talks about why our tanks are empty every day. Because I think that's irritating too. I think for me, I don't want to be that reliant.

[Amanda Perry]

Why not?

[Preston Perry]

I don't wanna, like, I don't want to be so needy. You get what I'm saying? So if I feel like I gotta pray before I got to do the podcast, I got to have this conversation. I need wisdom. I got to answer these emails. I got to go meet with this person. I don't really like them like that. Like, I would rather not have to depend on God to be godly. I would rather want to just do it myself because that just feels easier and more convenient. But every time I do it myself, it's just. It's just never. It's never pleasing. So I think, think that's the reliant thing is a thing. But so what Piper talks about is like, we would rather be able to run on last week's gas. I had a good prayer time with the Lord and Bible study with the Lord, and we don't like that on that Tuesday did not carry into Wednesday. You woke up Wednesday morning, you like, Dang, I still feel empty. And he was like, the reason our tanks get empty is because every day now you have to go to the station. And he's like, that is what God is up to, is that he wants us in the station every day so that at any point we don't think that we are running on our own fuel. And I think that's what spiritual disciplines and faith and all of that.

[Amanda Perry]

You know what that just reminded me of? It reminded me of our daughter Eden. You know, oftentimes she wants to please me, but she doesn't want to ask me to help her in the thing, right? And it's like she wants to please daddy. And it's like, why you didn't ask me?

[Preston Perry]

I wanted to do it by myself.

[Amanda Perry]

And I think a lot, lot of that is me. It's like I want like. But the reality is we need God's help to please God, correct? Right. So we just need his help. You know what I'm saying? That could be a humbling thing.

[Preston Perry]

It's like, like cuz you can't please him and pat yourself on the back at the same time. And that's what we want. Just. Just surrender to your helplessness and your neediness.

[Amanda Perry]

I think, I think we can hit with that.

[Preston Perry]

And right there is where face Gross.

[Amanda Perry]

Yeah. We need God.

[Preston Perry]

Bye. And it was Convicting with the Perries is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop thank you for listening. Now go with God.