← With The Perrys
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- [00:02]
Lehmati Navarro
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- [00:25]
Tony Navarro
You.
- [00:26]
Lehmati Navarro
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Tony Navarro
Cause there's always something new.
- [00:46]
Lehmati Navarro
Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. We walk with couples now that go through, that have gone through infidelity. One of the things that we tell them is that if you decide both of you have come to the place of we want to work on restoration in our marriage, then you need an incubator season where you close off the voices of the naysayers, because they'll be there. They'll tell you, girl, you're dumb. Like, you should not stay with him. They'll tell him, man, you know what? What you did was because of this, right? And so you have all these voices, even people who love you, who are biased. And that's why you need wives like your mama and your mama and your
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Tony Navarro
mama, the way my mama be.
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Host 1
Like, you out your mind if you
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Host 2
go back to mama always. I mean, you ain't never been there. You didn't cheat when you was in seventh grade. It's a reason why you cheated.
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Lehmati Navarro
Yeah. Yeah. It's like, right away, mom will be like, well, you know, his mom, all of that. But. But I didn't tell my mom. I'll just be real honest. I didn't tell my mom for a season. Not until it became a testimony. Listen, I didn't even tell my sister, my older sister. There were certain people. It's almost like the Lord was leading me. There were certain people that I told. Sometimes I was venting, and sometimes I was telling people because I just needed them to be praying for us. And if you could picture, like, a couple, and this is true for every marriage, if you could picture a couple, you need a community of strong couples holding hands surrounding your marriage. That when you guys are drifting, they're like, no, get back in there. No, we believe in you. Nope. And we need that even without infidelity.
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Host 1
Yeah.
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Lehmati Navarro
So you especially need that if you're choosing to restore your marriage. And so we do. There's just that incubator stage where you're listening to the right counsel, the people who are like, I know you want to leave, but you said you wanted to fight. Let's do this together. Yeah. You're going to have triggers. Let's talk about those triggers. Like, you know, and so there comes that. It's a very. When you're an incubator, you're very fragile. The marriage, once there has been an affair, it's very fragile. I mean, we were like ready to kill each other at times.
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Tony Navarro
Yeah.
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Lehmati Navarro
But we had the right people in our lives telling us, get back in the fight. I men telling him, hey, Tony, you, you made your bed, go lie in it. I know she's angry. Go back home. Like, you know, it's kind of like you need those people.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Lehmati Navarro
Who are a part of your story.
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Tony Navarro
I agree with you. And I think for right now, when we, we coach couples that are going through this, the sad part is that not all of them, but a majority of them don't have a church family. And we're hearing that more and more is like a lot of people are doing this online church or they just go to a place that they visit, but they're not in community, you know. And so I know that that's super important for them to have longevity. And like Lamati said, when they're in that season of the incubator stage of where you're trying to control the environment for growth, when you start letting things in, voices that are not lining up with scriptures. You need the scriptures.
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Host 1
Yeah.
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Tony Navarro
You need people just sharing the scriptures with you.
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Lehmati Navarro
Like minded people.
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Tony Navarro
The promises of God and, and what he can do. The gospel. Just revisiting the gospel continually. I mean, you look at even the Lord's Prayer within the Lord's Prayer, he says, forgive me as I forgive those. I mean, there's almost. There should be a. That should be part of our nature to forgive others or to be patient, regulate ourselves when we're angry and then give grace or revisit it. Not to just sound off decisions on. I'm out of here. I'm grabbing the kids. You're this and that. I'm done. I'm going to moms, I'm going to dads. And it's like, hold on. When it first comes out, there's two things happening. When it came out for me, I'm like, it's finally out. You know what I mean? Like, it's finally out. And so I'm feeling, in a sense, somewhat of a little bit of freedom because it's out there. I'm not hiding it anymore. But then she's feeling hurt, anger. Right. Distrust, being betrayed. I mean, all these different things. So two people marry together, one act of sin causes two different responses that want to both pull you apart, you know? And so it's very vital that we get grounded on the truth, we be patient with each other for a season before we start making some crazy decisions and to have the right voices that we can walk this out together. Because a lot of those marriages are going to either smother it up, try to cope with it on their own, and it never gets dealt with. Years go by and they're still in the same place, or they try to deal with it and they fall apart in the process of trying to make it work on their own, because there's shame tied to that as well, for sure, where you don't want everybody to know. And so they're just trying to cope with this on their own kind of thing. And. And I know Lamotti wanted. And there's always going to be the one that it happened to them, the one that was betrayed. They're going to want to share because they want people to know that, like, look what this person did to me. But that's also hurting the other person. Like, oh, you're just throwing it all out there to everybody and to the ones that probably shouldn't be hearing it right now. And so it's really vital. Like, again, when we talk to couples and coach them, it's like, okay, we. What's happened so far? Like, give us what's the damage on everything, what's happening, and trying to get them to see how important it is to focus in on your covenant, focus on each other. And when we get to the place where we can even communicate, we start talking about, well, what condition is your marriage in? Because a lot of times, like you said, Jackie, they'll find out that, like, their marriage really wasn't that great. You know, one wasn't really feeling loved, one wasn't feeling respected, One wasn't feeling safe. One was dealing with a personal addiction that wasn't being shared. I mean, there's these things that come out after that.
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Host 1
Yeah.
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Tony Navarro
And it's just to show you, like, listen, there is. There's a mess here. We need to work on this.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
You know, what happened when y' all left the room because you didn't hit him.
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Lehmati Navarro
I didn't hit him.
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Host 1
Okay.
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Lehmati Navarro
I went home. I'm going to say it. We had not been intimate for a whole month. And there was a part of me that. That felt like. And I talk about this in our book, in chapter nine, which was talking about, like, how do you restore the marriage bed? And I had intimacy with him. Cried through it, was feeling all kinds of emotions, triggered. I don't know what he was feeling, but I had not been with him for over a month.
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Tony Navarro
I was crying, too, and I thought it was okay. It's like we were both. She wanted to do it. I really didn't want to do it. I don't even know what was going on, like, during it, because my mind was just being triggered by other thoughts and stuff, too. And also crying. Cause I'm like, what's going on here? You know what I mean? It just came out. I've been in an affair. I'm already thinking, I'm moving in with moms now I'm back in my bed, and I'm with my wife. And it just, like, it doesn't even make sense to me what's happening right now.
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Lehmati Navarro
And we know not a lot of people do that. Like, some people.
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Host 1
I've never heard of this in my life.
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Lehmati Navarro
Okay. There was a part of me that was like, I got a woman up. I don't know. I just. I just felt that, like, just. And. But at the same time, I'm like, this woman had his affection, he had. She had his thoughts, and I'm taking him back.
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Host 2
Wow.
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Lehmati Navarro
That was one. That was one thing I did. Do I recommend that? No. I mean, there's some marriages that need to heal in that area where trust needs to be rebuilt and safe. So, no, I don't always recommend that, but that's what we did when we went home.
- [09:15]
Host 2
Well, I want to ask, too, because I can understand how that can be so emotionally confusing for you, because I think sometimes the world tries to paint it like men aren't emotional beings, but we are. And I think what that shows us is you were. You had all of these emotions. You feel relieved that this thing is finally out, but you also dealing with trying to handle your wife's emotions of her being broken and hurt and all the things. But then also, too, you just experience this grace, and you're trying to understand, like, this grace is just. It's new for you. And I can imagine that there was still a great deal of shame. And so not only do you think, man, this woman shouldn't have forgave me the way she did, but she definitely shouldn't be sharing her body with me. Right. And so was it shame that you were still holding on to that to be weird or was it just you have like, so you. You've been so withdrawn emotionally from your wife that it was kind of hard to connect with her in that way or was it a bit of both? In this day and age, it's really hard finding things for your kids to watch. Even when you're watching YouTube, there are ads that are inappropriate. So this is the reason why I think having apps where your kids can go and find godly, Christ centered, you know, shows is very important.
- [10:40]
Host 1
Meno makes it simple for families to grow in faith together. It's the number one spot for Christian content made just for kids, packed with shows that feed their imagination and their understanding of who God is. We are talking about favorites like Laugh and Grow Bible, Young David, the Dead Sea Squirrels, God's Greenhouse, Veggie Tales, and more. Every show, every devotional is designed to fill their mind with what matters most. And here's the best part. It is ad free. No distractions, no craziness, no no junk. Just truth and creativity. With Minnow, kids don't just watch something good, they grow in it. They laugh, they learn and they start to see God in everything they do. I think it is helpful and exciting to know that Menno exists. Us having four children, many of them who still want to engage in content that is entertaining. And our greatest burden burden is to make sure that it's not merely entertaining but also exhortation or edifying instructive. And so Menno is cool in that way. Visit gomeno.com to start your free trial today. Plus you can use the code PERRY to get your first month free. This is a web only exclusive offer so make sure to sign up on the Goldmenow.com website with code PERRY to get your first month free.
- [11:54]
Tony Navarro
We call it intimacy. But it was sex because I felt emotionally detached from my, my wife and at the same time emotionally detached. I knew I just hurt this woman deeply, right? All this came out. I felt like at sex it was something that you got if you did something you're doing good, you know, like things are going great and it wasn' going great. So all these different emotions at the same time where I mean the body's physical, it'll do what it does naturally, how God designed it. But just even afterward, feeling so far apart, even though we just had sex so far apart in the same bed. And she's crying and then I'm trying to show that I'm not crying because I don't want to add to her and just not knowing what's, what's the next step for us after this, really feeling lost in all of this, within all the emotions and direction and so thankful that we had the right voices to like, we can call and say, what do we do? Like, what's the next thing that we need to do here? But yeah, that's. And I think you're right. It's like with, in marriage, I mean, men want to, want to feel desired still by their spouse, but we know that we're not going to have, you know, five course meal sex, like all the time. You know, we understand. I understand that. I understand that. And then, you know, you start to look at it like it, why are we doing this? You know, I mean, sex to us now, and we teach, is a result of you already having intimacy outside of the bedroom with your spouse. Like you're already connecting at a very intimate level, friendship level. You're experiencing fun. I like to have fun and these other types of things. And so we get to celebrate that, that covenant together in the bedroom. We weren't at that place at the time. We weren't.
- [13:42]
Lehmati Navarro
And so, and I think the reality set in when we got home. The truth of what was happening. I'm a detective. I missed my calling. I started doing research. I started looking for everything, all the clues. And it was like little puzzle pieces were just coming together. And I was like, oh, that's where he was. Oh, that's what that was. Oh, that's why he went into the bathroom when he got home. Like, it was just like all these parts. So triggers, a lot of triggers. Another part of infidelity is grief. And there's grief work that needs to be done. And when you think about the five stages of grief, they're not linear, they're not up and down, They're a ball of yarn. Okay, so you're like, one day you're angry and then the next you're bartering. And then you're okay, and then you're back to anger. Like, you know, so like it's all this grief that we're both going through. Because the way I describe it is infidelity is like the loss of something you cherish. And so I had lost the fidelity of my marriage and so I was grieving. And that's hard when you don't. I didn't know how to do grief. I wanted to run from grief. I wanted. And so a lot of running was happening. And I think when in the book, when we wrote about our story and how we were going through it, what people are gonna witness is that it was us being sanctified. God was doing just a deep, sanctifying work through this. That's good. But I started praying, and because he said it happened once, and just once, that was all, you know, I think he was just trying to soft pedal the whole affair. And I went to sleep one day, and God speaks to me often through dreams. And so I was awakened by this dream. And in the dream, I saw who she was. I knew what she looked like. I knew what car she drove. I knew how long it had been happening. She's telling me in the dream she loves my husband. She shows me where it all happened, and I wake up and I said, I had the strangest dream. For somebody who told me it only happened once. I just met the other woman in my dream.
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Host 1
You married a prophetic person. That's hilarious.
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Tony Navarro
The Holy Spirit. That's exactly what I felt like.
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Lehmati Navarro
And so I tapped him on the shoulder and I told him the dream. And he's like, that's weird. Shrugs it off. And he's like, that. You know, that's just your mind or whatever. Yeah. But I went to sleep, and I could feel the Holy Spirit like, I'm talking to you. There's more. And I was like, okay. And so I just started praying. I said, lord, you say that everything that is done in darkness comes to the light. Bring it all out to the light. I need to know the full truth. I need to know how long this has been happening. I mean, there was things I didn't need to know. But, yeah, I did want to know, and I did get that knowledge, but I don't recommend that. But I started praying, and slowly everything started coming out.
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Host 1
Well,
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Tony Navarro
your turn. She was spot on, though. She was. I was. I brushed it off because I was like, I heard about this.
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Host 1
So when she rolled over you, I would have been like.
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Tony Navarro
I'm like, yeah. I was like, this is like, whoa. Like, what is going on here? I felt like the Lord was tricking on me and really was spot on on everything. And. And after that, I had a voicemail as well that was sharing a lot of the things that she had already witnessed in the dream. And so it blew up another level. And so we was just. Everything then started to come out even more about how long he was trying to hide. He was listening to her voice saying, like, these. These Damage control. And that woman's at work. And so it's just like, all right, what's. What else is going to come out from this? And so we were having these up and down fights all the time. Walking on eggshells. We talk about that in our book, is that we're walking on eggshells. But then things turned Memorial Day weekend in Chicago, and we had a ugly fight. We talk about this in the book as well.
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Lehmati Navarro
Physical, like, I really.
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Tony Navarro
She was.
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Host 1
I didn't hit smoke on him.
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Tony Navarro
Yeah, she was just going at it.
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Host 1
And you seem so nice now. I would never think that that's a part of you.
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Host 2
Just.
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Lehmati Navarro
Jesus.
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Host 2
The only reason she told you she's from Humble Park.
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Lehmati Navarro
I'll show you some pictures that you. You.
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Host 1
I want to see some evidence. I want to see bc look at Levi.
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Tony Navarro
Good. So, yeah, she. You want to share that part?
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Lehmati Navarro
Yeah. So it. So when he was on, he. We were at a business meeting. He walked out, said he had to go to the car. He's on the phone. I'm behind him. Snatch that phone from him. And I started listening, and it's the other woman, and she's describing everything that I had. I had heard in the dream.
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Host 2
On a voicemail.
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Lehmati Navarro
On voicemail. I love you. I need closure. Don't let the last two months go, you know, just out the window. I know you have children. You have to stay with her because of the kids. And she's going on, she's crying and I'm here. And when I tell you my heart was to hear her voice and her anguish, my heart was literally taken out of my chest and just thrown to the ground. And Tony is. He's just angry because that's how he was trying to, you know, he's trying to control everything, but everything was coming out. And I looked at him and I said, look at the sun right now. This is like everything you do in darkness will come to the light because God is light. Live in the light. And I walked away. And I was just. I mean, crying and talking to the Lord, and I was like, I don't want to stay. I know. I said I wanted to grace him, but I want out, God, I want out. And that night, he picks me up, we get to the house, we're fighting, like, I mean, I physically attacked him, but I talk about this in the book, but I drive off and I was ready to try to take my own life, but God encountered me through a cop. And a woman who saw me far from home pulls me over. I get pulled over by this cop. Because I'm driving erratically. I had a plan to drive my car off of. Just drive it. And I didn't care who was going to hurt, which is crazy. Now I think about it, I was passing up red lights. I was just driving. I just didn't. I wanted the pain to end what I was feeling. And she pulls me over, and she comes into the car, and she's like, do you have your license and registration? So I give her my stuff, and she puts her flashlight through my car. And you could see I had a booster seat in the back, a baby seat. And she's like. And I'm crying. And she goes, you're far from home. You need to go home. And I was like, officer, I just had a fight with my husband. I'm trying to talk to her, and she looks at me and she says, you're far from home. Go home. And I remember that day, and I felt the Holy Spirit say, stop running, le Mari. Like, you know, you got to face this. And I just began to just. Well, I was just crying and praying and just shouting to the Lord. And I was like, God, you know, I think we all need a song when we're going through something. There was a song that I. That ministered to my heart during that season. And it's called if youf Want Me to. It's a very old song. And I said, if youf want me to go through this valley, God, I'll go through it. But you need to be with me. I need to know that you're here. I need to know that you're directing me. So I get home, we. We make up. And then the next morning, Memorial Day, 2000, our church was having a picnic, and we didn't want to go, but our kids knew about it and got wind of it. And so you know how kids are. They're like, we want to go because there's a pool, food, right? Friends, they love it. And so we ended up showing up, but we were disheveled. We were a mess. And our church community saw me, and they're like, you guys good? I'm like, I'm good. I'm good. Looking like a hot mess, hair in a bun. You know, we. He look a mess, too. And my cousin comes up to me, and she's like, hey, let's go for a walk. I feel like the Lord has given me a word for you. And I'm like, okay. And we're walking, and she's like, limari, you need to stop fighting this battle. The way you've been fighting it. You need to fight this in prayer. You need to surrender your husband to the Lord. This is not your battle to fight. And she walks away. She read me a scripture that says, vengeance is mine, says the Lord, I will repay you. Do good. And it's like heaping burning coals on your enemy's head. And now he's not my enemy, but boy, he felt like my enemy. And so I'm left there and I began praying and I said, God, I can't do this anymore. I'm losing my mind, I'm losing my. I'm just all over the place, my health. I was skinny, wasn't eating. And I'm crying out to the Lord. I'm like, I surrender him to you, Lord. I'm not going to fight this anymore the way I've been fighting it. And I said, but, but God, this is your son and you love him. And he's running and he's doing things in dark, in the dark. I pray, Lord, that you grab your son and you break his leg. In the name of Jesus, break his leg, God. Cuz that's your sheep and you love your sheep. And he's wandering and I want you to put them over your shoulder and I want you to talk to him until he recognizes and knows your voice. In Jesus name, amen. That was my prayer and I don't know, but God took me at my word. No. And I just. We just started playing. We're there and I, I walk, I walk with him. We're on the basketball court. And I told him, I'm surrendering you to God. I'm done fighting this the way I've been fighting it. I'm losing my mind. And he goes to go play. One of our other cousins is like, hey, I'm going to go grab some food. They're playing softball on the side. And he's like, I'm going to go grab some food. Can you take my turn so I can go get some food? And I said, go ahead, go. I'm going to go get some food too. So Tony goes and he plays an inning and I'll let him just share what happens from there.
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Tony Navarro
Well, I like when you share. They ran up to you.
- [24:32]
Lehmati Navarro
Okay. So anyways, I'm like, I'm going to get some food. And not even five minutes, guys. I didn't even make it to the food area. Somebody comes running to me and they're like, your husband? And I go, he broke his leg. And they're like, how'd you know, and I said, praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. And so I walk over and I see Tony sprout out on this grass, and his leg is like, you know, like this. Yeah. Like, you know, and he's just, you know, in pain. And we had known.
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Host 2
The Lord gave you the right wife.
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Host 1
That's what I'm saying. It's like, y' all be going to witches and things. Y' all just need somebody to know how to pray.
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Tony Navarro
You understand what I'm saying?
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Host 1
Pray to the Lord. What? The story of Easter is, in fact, the most beautiful story ever told. But sometimes, because we all know it, we all done been to the Easter service with our pastels and shiny shoes on. We move quickly past it, and we forget what it actually means. If the Tree Could Speak, written by Tim Teague, invites you to experience the crucifixion from a perspective no one has ever heard from the tree itself. Fashioned into an executioner's tool, the tree's dreams of becoming something great turned to shame. Until it found itself holding up the King of Kings. Its purpose had been redeemed. It's beautifully illustrated, and every page invites you to pause, to reflect and feel the weight of everything. The cross wasn't just wood. It was the place where shame met mercy, where death met life, and where the love of God was put on display for the world to see. This is more than just a book. Meaningful way to prepare your heart and revisit the story of Easter in a new and very thoughtful way.
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Host 2
As a poet, I love this concept. I love poetry, and I think the Bible has a lot of poetry in it for a reason. Personification allows us to dream and imagine in ways we wouldn't if we were just told something plainly. And so the fact that he wrote this book from the perspective of a tree, I think will allow us and force us to see the crucifixion from an angle that we never saw before.
- [26:33]
Host 1
Step inside the story of the crucifixion, hear the witness, and experience Easter like never before. With if the Tree Could Speak, available on Amazon. I encourage you. We encourage you to check it out. It's if the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow, available on Amazon or see the link in the show notes.
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Lehmati Navarro
And he. I look down at him and he tells me. He's like, I'm wrestling with God. That's the first words that come out of his mouth. Wow. And I said, and God always wins. That was my. We're literally. I can tell you, everybody's around. You could hear the Ambulance. There's chaos. Everyone's. You know, the people are coming, and people are like, is he okay? All I can see was Tony and Tony. And I knew this was about to change everything. It just felt like a moment. Now, did God punch him in the leg? I'm not saying that that's what happened. Jackie got on the.
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Host 1
I mean, Jacob, he touched his hip, he broke the leg, and he had a limp.
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Lehmati Navarro
Disciplines of children he loves.
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Host 1
There's biblical precedents, but.
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Lehmati Navarro
So I'll let you. I'll let you chime in from that moment unless you guys have any questions.
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Host 2
We want to know about the leg.
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Host 1
I truly just need popcorn.
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Tony Navarro
The leg is we. I do believe it was from God. I do believe God disciplines those he loves and his children. He talks about that in Hebrews 12. We have people that do not believe that God would do any type of discipline. But I think that's just their view of God is off. Not scripturally, because we're in a society that doesn't want pain, doesn't think that discipline is something. But, I mean, I'll get off of that. But the other thing I would say, though, is when you're going through it, it really is about you and your spouse. She just described everything else happening. But even though you're in places together, you're thinking about what's happening in your marriage right now. You're thinking about, how are we going to get through this? And I knew that I was wrestling with God. And just like you said, that came to my spirit. Jacob and the deceiver, right. Deceiving his brother and his dad. And so I was deceiving people, still trying to control the situation, trying to not have both. I wanted to end the other one and to work on my marriage, but trying to figure out how to make this where not everybody's hurt as much, in a sense. Right. But then here I am on the ground, and I knew it was bad because I can see the bottom of my right foot, you know? And so I'm like, okay, that's not good. And it broke rope. Oh, it was. I shattered my knee in, like, 18 different places. And so why we say we believe it's God too is because the kid was only like, £80. It was like a skinny little kid that I ran into.
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Lehmati Navarro
Yeah.
- [29:20]
Tony Navarro
And everybody said it looked like I ran into a brick wall. And so when I get to the hospital, the doctor's telling me that, I mean, at best, you can you walk with a cane, you know, but like playing basketball or anything, or Anything like that, You're. You're done. So now I'm feeling like I'm just, wow, how did I get to this place? And we share this in. I think it's chapter eight. When everybody left, it was after surgery and I had the room to myself. I was just. It was quiet. You can smell the hospital disinfectant. You hear the beeping, the window there with the rain on the glass. It was just. I'm thinking to myself, how did I end up with a broken leg or broken marriage and a broken relationship with God? And the choices that we make add up after a period of time to disaster, or you can prosper in your life. But I was crying, and I was really calling before the Lord. I said, God, I'm sorry. I started to read Psalm 51 and looking how David described repentance and how even before I sinned against Lehmati, against this other woman, against people in my community, I sinned against you. Like, you saw all of this. And I need to be right with you first. I'm sorry that what I've done. I don't want to stay in this anymore. And I remember making this. This kind of like this indirect vow to the Lord, because at the end of Psalm 51, David's saying that if you restore the joy, I will tell everybody of how good you are and how you can change and restore and redeem. And so I'm like, lord, I'll be your man, you know, if you would just restore what the broken bones in my body, in a sense, and my broken spirit. And so there was, like, this of kind, this vow I was making before the Lord and really feeling for the first time, because everything stopped. Like, I couldn't go to work. I couldn't go anywhere. I was just stuck in hospital. And I had a chance to really think and to listen and to lament on what was happening in my life right now. And I still do that today, though, because life gets busy.
- [31:36]
Host 1
Yeah, it does.
- [31:36]
Tony Navarro
It gets so busy that you don't get that chance to really cherish and say, I ain't going nowhere until I hear from you. Like, I'm not trying to be no place else. And I really feel that that was from the Lord. And so receiving his discipline at the time was the best thing that could have happened to me at that point. I needed that. I needed everything to stop. Like, everything to get to a place where I know that he wanted me to be at. But, yeah, so it was just me and him now and that journey. And when we Got home. That started a new journey because I took. I was a very prideful guy. I mean, I think we all have pride, but, I mean, I took pride in a lot of things. And so when we were there, it was just hard to get back to a rhythm because she had to take care of me. Right. My kids had to help. I mean, I could barely get to any place she put me. Wherever she put me is where I stood for the whole day, unless she were able to move me again. And I was just at first feeling good because, all right, I don't have to go to work right now. I can work on things here in my marriage. People are calling me. You know, I got a. I got a home visit here and there. But then when a couple months go by.
- [32:52]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [32:53]
Tony Navarro
And you don't get those calls as much anymore. You don't do this. That you start to see your wife working more, you know, and you see your kids picking up things where you couldn't do. I'm feeling like a gut shot right now, you know, I'm not feeling good. And I started feeling depressed. I know now that what it was. And I didn't want to. I didn't want to get up. If she left me in the bed. I'd stay there the whole day. Just leave me right here. I don't want to go nowhere. And she'd go off to work, take the kids, I mean, and then just be at the house. And I just started entertaining thoughts, entertaining thoughts again of your worth. You're better off dead. You're holding them back. You're going to do this again, Tony. You're not going to change. Wait till you start walking again. You'll be doing it all over again. I mean, all these different things coming at me. And then I started popping all the pain medicine. So now the addictive behavior came back, and I started just numbing myself again, numbing myself again, numbing myself again. And then one night, There. There's men that are feeling right now like there's no way out. Like it can't. Anything they do is not going to change. And I got to that point where I'm like, I'm done. They're better off without me. I got a life insurance policy. They're going to be fine. Right? And she left. I know she was going to be late that night. I watched Crazy. Was it the Last Supper or something at vhs? And they're going through Judas, you know, betraying the Lord. And I felt like, oh, man, I'm a betrayer. That's Me. And so Judas hung himself. So I said, I'm hanging myself. So I tied a loose and hobbled my way to the bathroom. And we lived in an apartment where like they strapped everything down in the apartment. I mean, there was like a, it was like a gas line that was tied to the studs that I was doing pull ups on when I was in shape, you know. And so it was like, I know that that could hold, that can hold me up. And so I tied myself up and I. And I let go of the crutches and just let it squeeze my neck. And then I had this moment where I'm like, oh, no, Lord, no, I don't want this. And I'm trying to pull myself up and I black out. And then when I wake up, she's standing on top of me. And now I'm feeling, oh my gosh, you know, this woman, I just tried killing myself. And now she's not going to be able to leave the house or something. She's going to think, every time I leave, this guy's going to do this. But I told her, babe, I feel like a Judas. I betrayed you. I betrayed God, I betrayed everybody, My kids, my family, him. Piece of trash. And she told me, babe, you're not, you're not Judas, you're Peter. And God's got Bennett's build his church with you to that extent. But she says, peter, and he's not done with you. And she helped me off the floor. We went to bed and started really working on our relationship. And I was being more open about my thoughts and where I was at, what I'm going through. Reaching out to men again, not waiting for them, but me reaching out, being proactive to really help me process my thoughts and these lies that I was starting to believe to get me to that place. But I think it was a year or two after that is where we went to our first conference weekend to remember. We begin to remember. And for the first time, even though we were working on our relationship, we were kind of maintaining the relationship. And when we went to this retreat for marriages that we were gifted by one of the elders, it was like, holy cow, the bigger picture. The like the aha moment of like, wow, this is what marriage is about. And I got the pleasure of talking to Dr. Crawford Lewitz at our last retreat because he was speaking at that one about 20 years ago when we went. And I just leaned in when that man started just sharing the role of a man, a husband, a father, a husband. And I was just, just zoned in on that. And I was like, man, so moved. And so I. And it also was a moment of like, we didn't know really what marriage really was about.
- [38:00]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [38:01]
Tony Navarro
The vision of it. The legacy aspect. Yeah. The issues that, like how to. How to deal with the adjustments of communication, arguing, sex, Satan. I mean, all these different aspects was all like. It was kind of like dumped on you. And so we walked out of that conference really feeling hopeful, excited. We didn't even get to read everything. But we started inviting people to go through materials in our basement because we were just like, let's just get people together because we know they messed up and we messed up. Let's just go ahead, be messed up together. And we didn't go through. We kind of slopped it up. And we just wanted to get marriages on board with that. But it took us going through those moments of the ups and downs, really downs. Repentance, accountability, and being committed to each other and now to our marriage. But that's kind of like the book in a sense where we share that too. And. But yeah, I don't even know if I answered the question or what I
- [39:04]
Host 2
just did right now.
- [39:05]
Host 1
Yeah. So there's a lot of questions.
- [39:07]
Host 2
Man, that was beautiful. That was beautiful, man. I think one of the things I'm walking away with when it comes to you guys story, but mainly you, Tony, is that even though the Lord brought you to himself, I think through your experience you really learned what grace and mercy is. And a lot of times I think the Lord allows us to go through things, of course, to help our marriage, but also to see him properly. And it's just like I think God wanted you to experientially understand what grace and mercy is. And so all of these things like you didn't deserve. You didn't think that you deserved her. To say, I choose grace in your pastor's office. And you don't. You didn't think that you deserved to wake up and see her. You didn't think that you deserved her to take care of you when you. When you couldn't walk around. And then when you tried to kill yourself, the first person you see is the one that you hurt. And I think it's just beautiful how God uses our spouse to show us him, to show us like, this is what grace is. This is what mercy is. This is what my love is. Which is. Which is beautiful. It's a beautiful story. Really beautiful story.
- [40:23]
Lehmati Navarro
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- [40:47]
Host 1
This was 20 years ago.
- [40:50]
Lehmati Navarro
25. Over 25 years ago. A little over 25 years ago. Yep.
- [40:55]
Host 1
What is the difference in your marriage now?
- [41:00]
Lehmati Navarro
So 25. It took us about a good maybe four, seven years after the affair to really start pouring into other marriages where it was like when the Bible says, after I've comforted. After I comfort you, use that comfort to comfort others. And so God started bringing people into our lives that we could minister to.
- [41:25]
Host 1
So did it take time to rebuild?
- [41:26]
Lehmati Navarro
It did. It took so much time to rebuild. We have a whole chapter called the messy middle. Sometimes you hear the story right. Tony tried to hang himself. Then we started going to a weekend to remember and it was great. And you know, know. No, there is definitely messy middles where, you know, we. We use a lot of construction analogies. We love to. I do interior design. He loves to do like the. Well, you don't love it. He loves it. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like that.
- [41:59]
Host 2
I love that.
- [42:02]
Lehmati Navarro
And so it's kind of like when you're in the middle of the mess of a reconstruction is dusty, you're moving around tools, you're looking at half built walls, and you're thinking, is it ever gonna be beautiful? But there is a process that brings progress. And so for us, there was so much process in between that was happening of God just tearing down my idols. There was a part of it that I. Idolatry. I idolat. Help me with the word idolize. I idolized. Thank you. Same thing I said. I messed you up.
- [42:48]
Host 2
That's a word. That's a word. I know it's a word.
- [42:51]
Lehmati Navarro
It's idolatry. But I was trying to say idolatry. I idolized my marriage. I idolized the fact that, you know, girls in the hood, they don't get married. I'm married. I got a man, I got my kids. And God was like, all of that. All of that means nothing if you don't have me. All of that's empty if I'm not central to your affections. And it's an overflow of the blessing. So God was ripping that from me. God was showing me, how do I care for a man who just hurt me? That wasn't easy because he felt like the enemy. I mean, there was A. There were times where I'm, you know, washing him or helping him and I could feel myself wanting to, like, just. I just want to just a little, you know, just a little punch. God, I'm sorry, you know. No, I didn't do it. Or I'll kick him out of the car. I'll be like, get out the car. And he'll be wobbling. And I'm like, holy spirit. Be like, go get your man. Like, what are you doing? And I'll turn the car around.
- [43:53]
Host 1
Kicking a crippled man out the car is diabolical.
- [43:56]
Lehmati Navarro
So there was so much that God was showing, like, you don't know how to love. You think you know how to love. You think you know what care is? I'm going to show you what it looks like. But how our marriage looks different now, is that so? We need a high and lifted up view of or even a spread out perspective of marriage. I always say, like, we need microscopic vision and we need telescopic vision. Microscopes take things that are invisible and make them visible to the eyes. We have an enemy who hates our oneness. Who hates your oneness. He's trying to get in between it. He's trying to create holes in your marriage, in your family, because he's after something bigger than just you. And so the way I see it is that when we did go to our first weekend to remember, we were able to see the purpose of marriage. We were able to see that marriage is bigger than us. And then our marriage can make an impact. And I want to say serving together, growing together in our intimacy with the Lord. My surrender has grown, his surrender has grown. But Tony's a transformed man. When I say like he's Tony 2.0, I mean, you know, God has really, when he changed him, he changed him. He came home to be a man that like, like he serves our family. He's the cook in the house. I just gotta tell you, he's a servant leader. He's a man who's very broken. I love that he's always broken before the Lord, that he always has a word that the Lord is showing him that he's very sensitive in the presence of God, that he leads me in, like, what is God showing you? And we do devotions with our kids. But the enemy was after that. He was after what we represented, our legacy. And when I say telescopic vision in First Chronicles 17, King David said when he was telling God, I want to build you a temple, I want to build you a sanctuary. God is like, it's not going to be you. It's going to be your son, Solomon. And then David says, what is my house, O Lord, that you've shown me a future generation. David had vision to see that it wasn't just about what he was going through. God had. He had a vision to see that everything I do right now will impact my children, their children, and obviously us, Right? And so we need that telescopic vision. And so I think our purpose changed, our vision changed, our ministry changed. Now we have a heart for the broken marriages that are hurting. And we've walked with so many couples. And so I think our marriage has changed. Now. When you ask our kids, like, I like to say that when you walk through the Navarro home, it used to be a fixer upper. And a before and after picture tells you a big thing, right? Like, it tells a story. The before is how messed up it was. The after is like, I wouldn't believe that it looked like this unless you show me a before picture, our after picture. And I'm not saying our marriage is gravy or all of that, but we have a very, very good marriage. And the fact that we have a great friendship, our intimacy is better than ever. So God can restore your marriage bed. We have a legacy of our grandchildren and our children that they're all following the Lord. That doesn't happen unless the Lord literally intervenes. Like, we are a miracle story. That should not be our lineage, guys. That shouldn't be our story.
- [47:34]
Host 2
That's so beautiful.
- [47:36]
Lehmati Navarro
But what I like to say is that. That God can put in where there used to be a line that would have said the narrative is divorced, broken, that he can put legacy, that he could put transformation, that he could put miracle stories. Like, that's what God does. So how does our marriage look better or different than 25 years ago? It's completely different.
- [48:00]
Host 2
Wow.
- [48:01]
Lehmati Navarro
Completely different. And that's not because of us. It's because of. Of Jesus. And we all need in every season of our lives, guys, a yes, a surrender. There's things that God is still doing in me that he's saying, hey, this is new level. I need that too. And you're like, wait, God, I didn't think that was that bad.
- [48:22]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [48:23]
Lehmati Navarro
And that's what he does even in marriage.
- [48:24]
Host 2
Yeah. That's so beautiful.
- [48:26]
Lehmati Navarro
I'll let you ask your question.
- [48:27]
Host 2
That's so beautiful. No, I had a question for Tony because, yeah, I've discipled men for, you know, a number of years, but not only that, I have a men's patreon that I get up with these guys from around the country, you know, and some of these men have, you know, dealt with infidelity in their marriage, cheated on their wives and stuff like that. And I, you know, earlier I heard you talk about how, like, you had become emotionally disconnected from your wife. And I don't really know, we don't know all the details that happened with you and the other woman, but obviously there was some type of emotional connection that she had with you and vice versa. But I just kind of want to expose the lie that the devil tells men when the devil tries to tempt him to cheat, that you can find this emotional fix outside of your marriage and how the enemy often wants us to pursue what we really don't need. Because even though you probably had some type of emotional fix with this woman, obviously she wasn't the woman that would pray for you after you hung, tried to hung yourself.
- [49:37]
Tony Navarro
Like God was.
- [49:38]
Host 2
Actually, I thought, like the Holy Spirit working in your wife is what got you here. You see what I'm saying? And so, like, I want you just to talk about, like, how her love, not just merely her love, but the, like God working through a godly woman and like, how that exposed a lot of the lies that the enemy told you in the past and how you can potentially help men who are tempted with this lie that, oh, my wife doesn't love me, my Christian wife doesn't love me. I can get this emotional fix outside of my marriage. I'm not seen, I'm not loved. Just talk about that. And what did the Lord expose and show you on that whole process?
- [50:20]
Tony Navarro
Wow. I guess. Well, let me say for, for me and I think for, for men. Well, this is what I share with men, is that the, the scriptures. The Bible has to actually be the framework, the, the context of your life. If this is just a, let me see what God has to say, opinionated book, then there's not going to be any transformation in your life. There are more commands of the Lord deliberately telling us what to do that has nothing to do with your emotions, has nothing to do about how you feel. It's just a command. And so when we look at Ephesians, right, and he says, love your wife as Christ loved the church, is he suggesting that? Is that like a suggestion? Yeah, it's like, it's like a command.
- [51:13]
Lehmati Navarro
Right.
- [51:14]
Tony Navarro
And so I realized early on that I had created also the distance for my wife and I wasn't being obedient to what God had told me to do. First of all, in My own home was to love my wife. I think that every man has an emotional capacity, but the issue is that who are we going to share that emotional or thought with? So if I'm sharing it with her, the other woman, then I'm obviously not sharing it then with her. And so what happens in our brains neurologically, that the easy button is always chosen. If it's easier to share this with this person, then this is who I'm going to share this with. And it can be another man. Like, it's just somebody. We're talking about people that are in an affair right now. And we live in a culture as well that is all about throwing out the old, the used, right? Let me just say this. The used and getting something new. I mean, half the people now don't even buy cars. We just lease them. They're just like, I'll just get a new one in three years. I get a new TV in three years, right? I'll get a new house in three years. I mean, we just don't understand, like, covenant commitment to stay, even in churches. I'll just visit this church for a few months, then I'll go to this church. There's no, like, commitment to.
- [52:35]
Host 2
Or restoration.
- [52:36]
Tony Navarro
Restoration, right. You need time for it to grow. And so for men, I always like to. I like to question, like, what are the thoughts first, right? Tell me what you're thinking. What lies are you. Are you believing? I'm already calling it a lie? Because a lot of times it is a lie. And so. And then we come back to the scriptures to bring out truth and also the reality of their life right now, right? Because when you start to only hear that, it's easier, then you might choose that. But when you start to hear real testimony from people that are like, no, it wasn't easier. It's really hard. I'm in my third marriage. I'm trying to raise, like, a family from two different moms. I mean, you start to hear from them, you're like, okay, maybe it ain't so easy, right? And so maybe you're listening to the wrong voices in that time. But the emotional aspect of it was it was easy for me to talk to this lady. It was easy for me to share with this lady. It was easy for me not to feel like corrected by this lady that I can just share. And so that became an ongoing thing that anything then I wanted to share or something new I didn't want to share with her. I said, I'll just hold onto this and share it with this other person instead. And then what that was doing was also inviting her into a relationship beyond the sexual part, you know, and so it gets messy, but it gets easy to do that. That's why even in our book, we share this. And I don't think everybody's on the same page with this either these days. But I don't believe men can really have a really deep friendship with the opposite sex, especially if they're attracted to the opposite sex. I think that it can be a friendship. I don't think that you should be sharing everything of your heart's desire to a woman.
- [54:21]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [54:22]
Tony Navarro
That you call your friend. And I think that it started with Friends, the TV show, then to New Girl, and into these other shows where it's like everybody can just hang out and have sex with each other and we can all still be friends. And that's not the case. That's not really how it is. Right. And you talk to a divorced man. Right. That is has to bi culturally, like, accept and be okay with the new guy in the relationship. He hates his guts. Yeah, I don't like that guy. I can't stand it. He's even around my kids, you know. But I'm called to, like, try to, like, make this work out. And probably wishing that they would have just went through it first to try to work it out. We talk also, Preston, I don't know if I'm going too much into this, but, like, we talk about the three grits of finishing. You guys maybe have done this. Have you ever tried a house project before?
- [55:07]
Host 2
No.
- [55:08]
Tony Navarro
You repaint something, it's all wrong. Yeah. Oh, like a house project.
- [55:13]
Host 1
It's a house project.
- [55:13]
Tony Navarro
Oh, wow. So when you sand something, there's normally three stages to sanding. It's 80 grit, 120 grit, 220 grit, coarse, medium, fine. And there's a process that you have to go through because if you skip it, you won't get the finish that you're really looking for. And so in the Lord, we want to skip the 80 grit, 60 grit. Well, maybe sometimes we'll go to the medium grit. But no, God wants to go through all three. In sanctification, the coarse grit takes out the obvious blemishes on the. On the. The wood or whatever it is that we're sanding. That's the obvious things. Things that you need to correct in life. Like, maybe it's not a good idea to do drugs no more. Maybe you shouldn't be, like, hanging out at night at the bars. Maybe you shouldn't all these should watch for all these different. Those like the 80 grit when you get to 120. Now we're talking about maybe you shouldn't react that way to this person. Maybe you shouldn't lie about that. Right. Maybe you should be more, you know, graceful, whatever, with your family. Then there's the fine. The fine is the one I feel like is the one where you want to give up and say, you know what? It's already good enough. But the fine is the really. It gets the stuff that you can't even see, and it smooths it out. And those are the things that are in your heart. And the only person that knows the heart is the Lord. And so that's what David says. Search me and know me. Make me whiter than snow. You ever seen snow in Chicago?
- [56:33]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [56:34]
Tony Navarro
Before people start driving, it's beautiful when they drive. It's all nasty and ugly, Right. It just looks like slush, but it's a beautiful color. It's all by itself, something magical about it. And he's saying, I want to be like that. Like that's what I want. And so I was talking to men, I was like, that's the goal, man. The goal is that you want the Lord to work in your heart, because in you, there are still things in the deepest parts of your heart that are still wanting to please yourself. And when you wanted to please yourself, then you're basically saying you're more important than what God says, than what anybody else thinks, than what your wife says. And if you think like that, then you're going to choose those decisions for your life as well, which are only going to be about yourself, but you're also causing damage to everybody around you.
- [57:13]
Host 2
Wow, that's so beautiful. Well, I know. I want you to come on my men's patreon and talk to the people.
- [57:17]
Host 1
80 grit and 120 grand. You can bring the things with you and show the little differences.
- [57:23]
Host 2
That would be great.
- [57:25]
Lehmati Navarro
I want to share this real quick, this definition of an affair real quick. And it's from weekend to remember, the definition is an escape from reality or a search for fulfillment apart from God's purposes for your marriage.
- [57:41]
Host 2
Wow.
- [57:42]
Lehmati Navarro
So when we look at that, people will say about us, like, oh, it's clear you guys had a physical affair. There's emotional affairs. Those make sense. But it's the thing that takes your affections, your time, your resources, if it's taking first place to your spouse and the purpose of your marriage, that thing is an affair. And so I think even the things that occupy our minds. And so that's what we have to constantly war against, this drift in your marriage, because that can become an affair, an escape for reality. So Tony was. There was an escape from reality. I have my own escapes from reality. And that's why I have to constantly do a check in. Like, where am I at? Is this an escape from reality? This is my priority, that my husband, you know, to be his wife, to be called to him, to my children. Anything else that's taking that, that thing becomes an affair. I'm walking with a woman who was telling us about her depression. So she was in a depression for a very long time. God healed her after years of depression. She said she woke up and she realized she was reading our book. And she said depression was the other person. I woke up and my husband, his heart was cold to me. I mean, everything has changed around me. My kids don't even know me because depression was the other person. I have another woman who told me her husband's a collector of whiskey. And she says, the bottle. And he's not even a drunk. Okay? The bottles are pretty. It makes him feel good. I can't compete. They don't talk back, right? And that thing becomes an affair. So we all. We have to constantly guard our marriages from the things that get in between our marriage.
- [59:40]
Host 2
Wow.
- [59:41]
Tony Navarro
I even tell people that you're even having an affair at Michael's because you're on the nitty committee. And all you think about is what you're gonna knit next, spending all that money. The closet's full of different type of yarns you're never gonna use. And it's like we just dive in to something because we're not experiencing oneness. Oneness in our marriage. And we're getting more thrills outside of our marriage. And so I don't believe that's what God wanted for our marriage when he designed it. And so I think it's just for us. We always look at whatever we're going to do. How is this going to affect our time together, our time as parents? I mean, because we were young parents, but we had like five at one time, all in the house, you know, and so different ages. And that always brings different dynamics as well to that. And so it was just really like, how am I going to be so I've made, made hard choices. I left my job, right? I worked only around men. They went straight into construction and automotive. I took jobs that I can be around and be available at services, at church with my children. Then I Had another job that just went out and got swept out from underneath me, but I felt like it was the one, but didn't realize I was being out of town for three months at a time. So I was like, this is probably not the one for me. So I took a job. They paid less, but I was home every day. And whenever I clocked out, it was done. I was able to focus in on that. Serve, be available, be there. And so I made really hard choices to continue to have oneness and availability and presence in my marriage that I feel like at times when we talk to couples, like, they're not willing to do that. They're not willing to give it all up. And what does the Bible talk about? That when you're trying to save your life, you actually are losing your life, but when you actually lose your life, you actually find your life, right? And so giving it all to the Lord, making the adjustments that you need to do, which are normally hard adjustments, and being available and present, I think out of that, you will start to experience oneness, right? You will start to maybe have the same vision that you want for your marriage and at the same time for your kids. They need you. I mean, I started picking up my kids from the bus stop and said, you know what, I'll just pick up from school and your mom will drop you off at school or be there, because you know how it is in the city. Tall, a Puerto Rican guy, he got a hat on with some baggy pants. You know, he's gang banging or something, right? And so I was like, no, I'm not going to let that happen. So. So I had to sacrifice to be there for that. So it's all about for men too and for women, but for men too, it's like, how am I present, man? How am I pastoring my home? How am I providing? How am I leading in that sense? And I shouldn't be expecting everybody else to make the sacrifices that I'm not making myself. So I do that.
- [62:19]
Host 2
That's beautiful, man. Well, you guys story is such a great picture of restoration, redemption, and how the Lord wants to not just to reconcile us back to the Father through the gospel, but also to reconcile us back to one another. And so this is. God does beautiful things with broken things. And so, man. So thank you guys for sharing your story.
- [62:45]
Tony Navarro
Yeah.
- [62:46]
Host 1
If you, if you want more, because I know for a fact y' all didn't even touch on half the wisdom, insight, practical instruction that they have. And so look in our show notes to get from ruin to renewal. Y' all should get a little small group of wise couples to go through it. You know what I'm saying? Open up the scriptures, talk to your spouse about it. All the things even if you high key, if you even single. I'm starting to become a proponent of single people reading things like this so that you go into marriage with more instruction and insight than you might have thought.
- [63:19]
Host 2
And you guys speak at Family Life. Yeah, too.
- [63:22]
Lehmati Navarro
Yeah, we're Family Life speakers and we speak at marriage events.
- [63:25]
Host 2
So you can always catch them at a Family Life speaking about their story more in depth.
- [63:28]
Host 1
They gonna place an ad in here somewhere to get y' all a little discount code. I. I already hear. I hear the email coming now.
- [63:35]
Host 2
Well, man, thank you guys.
- [63:36]
Host 1
Appreciate y'. All.
- [63:37]
Tony Navarro
Thank you guys for having us.
- [63:38]
Host 2
God bless y'.
- [63:39]
Lehmati Navarro
All.
- [63:39]
Host 1
Bye. Peace with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairly edited by the team at Tread Lively Artwork by Hob. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.
- [64:02]
Lehmati Navarro
Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho. Look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling. Ross. Work your magic. The UPS Store is making packing and shipping Easter gifts quicker than ever this year with upsa.
- [64:23]
Host 1
How quick?
- [64:23]
Lehmati Navarro
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