Legalism, Sexual Immorality, and Heaven: Listener Q&A

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Legalism, Sexual Immorality, and Heaven: Listener Q&A"

Podcast: With The Perrys
Hosts: Jackie Hill Perry & Preston Perry
Date: May 25, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this lively listener Q&A, Preston and Jackie Hill Perry tackle a range of spiritual questions with their trademark blend of honesty, humor, and deep biblical insight. Topics span from dealing with insecurity as a man and spiritual “pace” in dating, to the reality of heaven, balancing legalism in addressing sin, and practical advice for battling sexual immorality. Personal anecdotes, especially about their marriage and spiritual journey, offer both laughs and thoughtful reflection throughout.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Story Time: Evangelism, Legalism, & Awkward Moments

[01:16–06:26]

• Jackie recounts a memorable (and awkward) evangelism experience in her late teens, feeling compelled by a legalistic church culture to street-preach in a way that did not fit her personality or gifts.
• The pressure to evangelize was driven by fear (“I don’t want to disobey God, cause I don’t want to go to hell”) rather than authentic calling.
• The story, involving a partner who unexpectedly lost all memory, highlights the damage and anxiety legalism can cause for sensitive personalities.
• Both discuss how their evangelism approaches now align better with their unique wiring and gifts—Jackie focuses on relational, perceptive conversation rather than pressure-driven apologetics.

Memorable Quote:
"I just know y’all told us to go preach the gospel...I don’t want to disobey God, ’cause I don’t want to go to hell. And so I’m out there with this girl...she had a seizure and lost her memory some kind of way...what am I supposed to do with that?"
—Jackie, [03:36]

---

2. Insecurity in Manhood

[08:11–13:06]

• Responding to a question about male insecurity, Preston opens up about his own struggles in fatherhood, marriage, and leadership.
• Jackie frames insecurity as a universal human experience—since we are not God, security is always partial.
• Both stress that spiritual honesty, vulnerability with God, and community support (especially for men) are key to moving from insecurity to security rooted in Christ.

Notable Quotes:
"A righteous man and a wise man never really gets tired of running to the Lord for help, but also too, lean into those insecurities...Instead of, like, meditating on your weaknesses, ask the Lord how you want to use my weaknesses to show the world you." —Preston, [11:18]

---

3. Spiritual “Pace” in Dating

[15:09–21:24]

• The Perrys dissect what it means to be on the “same spiritual pace” in a relationship.
• Jackie clarifies it’s more important to examine spiritual maturity, desire, and honest pursuit of God than to match exactly in “pace.”
• They caution, especially to women, against dating or discipling someone who isn’t self-motivated in their faith, warning it leads to dysfunctional dynamics in marriage.
• Community and wise counsel are offered as protective measures for discernment in relationships.

Notable Quotes:
"If you have to lay down the foundation of ‘no, we’re not going to have sex,’...then I don’t know how you expect him to not only lead your home spiritually, but then to lead your children spiritually." —Jackie, [19:12]

---

4. Will We Know Loved Ones in Heaven?

[22:29–33:13]

• Drawing on Randy Alcorn’s book “Heaven,” Jackie explains her paradigm shift: heaven is embodied, social, creative—a “new earth” without sin.
• Relationships persist in heaven, but without earthly categories—there will be recognition but not marriage as we know it.
• The conversation lightens as Preston jokes about the possible awkwardness of seeing ex-spouses as “just siblings in Christ.”
• They reflect on how the fullness of home, peace, and purity in heaven will likely negate any awkward transitions or loss.

Notable Quotes:
"If I see my children, I’m going to be reflecting on the fact that they were stewardship for a season. Thank you, Lord...But it’s the people within that family I knew on earth that actually are the reason that brought me here." —Jackie, [25:31]

[29:05] Jackie: “If it’s home, there isn’t an adjustment. It’s like a sigh.”

---

5. Temptation, Deliverance, and Sexual Immorality

[36:18–44:34]

• Question: "How to get deliverance from sexual immorality? What scriptures do you recommend?"
• Jackie redefines ‘deliverance’ as a positional change—being moved from darkness into Christ’s kingdom—rather than the eradication of all temptation.
• Preston shares from 1 Corinthians 6: “The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord…”
• Both emphasize that struggling with temptation does not mean you aren’t delivered or loved by God.
• Practical strategies include: understanding your body’s value, identifying needs beneath temptation (e.g., loneliness, desire for comfort), and pressing into God’s promises and community.

Notable Quotes:
"Deliverance is being framed as a positional change...If you are in Christ, you have been delivered...as sexual temptation comes up, it does not have to have dominion over you." —Jackie, [37:33]

---

6. Marriage’s Impact on Individual Ministry

[44:44–51:49]

• Both reflect on how their marriage has shaped, encouraged, and humbled them in their ministry work.
• Preston praises Jackie’s ability to challenge him and recognize his gifts; Jackie appreciates Preston’s confidence and freedom, which allows her to fully embrace her own calling.
• They discuss navigating pushback between spouses—confirming that God uses their unity, discernment, and even disagreement for their good.

Notable Quotes:
"If God is calling me to do something, he’s not going to go around you. He’s going to confirm through you." —Jackie, [50:35]
"...God is actually using your spouse to draw you to him in ways that no other relationship can." —Preston, [53:36]

---

7. Prophetic Dreams & Discernment

[61:01–68:18]

• Jackie addresses why she’s guarded with sharing her prophetic dreams publicly: concern for biblical boundaries, spiritual wisdom, and potential misinterpretation.
• She affirms God can and does use dreams, but never in contradiction to His word, and warns about trusting gifts over scripture.
• Preston notes caution is needed to avoid extremes: denying God speaks at all, or centering all spirituality on prophecy.

Notable Quotes:
"We are not communicating new revelation. We are simply saying that God uses prophetic utterances and prophetic dreams to confirm, to confront, to convict. And it should never and will never contradict the word of God." —Jackie, [64:24]

---

8. Addressing Sin Without Slipping Into Legalism

[68:20–80:00]

• Legalism is defined as “methods…in which we try to obtain righteousness apart from the power of God and through works” ([68:43] Preston).
• Jackie describes how legalism is often a response to shame and misunderstanding of the gospel, referencing Adam and Eve hiding after sin (Genesis 3).
• The solution to both legalism and “antinomianism” (too much comfort with sin) is continually turning to Christ rather than efforts, and letting love inspire obedience.
• Practical steps: keep the Gospel central, let spiritual disciplines soften rather than prove something to God, and walk by the Spirit.

Notable Quotes:
"If you see sin in your life...the legalistic posture is ‘okay, I’m going to do better’...but notice you’re leaning on you...Rather than saying, ‘let me get on my face—Lord, I’m sorry, I actually cannot be strong...can you please change my heart?’" —Jackie, [77:55]
"Law keeping can never make you righteous in the same way a mirror can never make you clean...turn to the one who kept the law perfectly on our behalf." —Preston, [77:03]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Preston joking about heaven:
  "Would it ever be a temptation where you walk past and look at your butt? I’m like…Like, I used to look at her, but all the time on earth. And it wasn’t sin because you my wife. And so, like, now I’m in heaven...it would actually be sin up there because we’re not [married]." ([26:09])
• Jackie on prophetic caution:
  "I think sometimes people talk about gifts in a way that’s unbiblical...even the way people approach it feels immature and unwise and even unbiblical." ([62:59])
• On community’s role in discernment:
  "Community gives you additional eyes...sometimes can be like, yeah, I see this in him, or I see that in her..." —Jackie, [21:24]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Start | End | |-------|-------|-----| | Evangelism & Legalism Story | 01:16 | 06:26 | | Male Insecurity | 08:11 | 13:06 | | Spiritual Pace in Dating | 15:09 | 21:24 | | Knowing Loved Ones in Heaven | 22:29 | 33:13 | | Temptation, Deliverance, and Sexual Immorality | 36:18 | 44:34 | | Marriage & Ministry | 44:44 | 51:49 | | Prophetic Gifts & Discernment | 61:01 | 68:18 | | Addressing Sin & Legalism | 68:20 | 80:00 |

---

Tone & Style

The Perrys blend playful teasing, vulnerability, and biblical depth, engaging with listeners both intellectually and pastorally. Their candid stories and practical theology create a welcoming yet challenging space—making this episode both accessible and thought-provoking for any Christian interested in pursuing authentic faith.

---

This summary captures the heart, insight, and lighthearted moments of "Legalism, Sexual Immorality, and Heaven: Listener Q&A," offering a rich guide for listeners wanting to review or those interested in the episode’s practical and theological wisdom.

Transcript

[Jackie]

So good, so good, so good. Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love like Vince, Sam, Edelman, Frame and free people. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack ready. To soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer. Hey, how you doing?

[Preston]

Why you say hey all timid?

[Jackie]

How are you? Hope you're good, Hope you're blessed.

[Preston]

You acting like Autumn our seven year old.

[Jackie]

Hey, hey.

[Preston]

I be like, say hey Autumn.

[Jackie]

Hey. I was thinking about different stories that we probably haven't shared and I speaking

[Preston]

of that, we haven't did a story time with Preston or story time with Jackie in a long time.

[Jackie]

I don't really have that many stories.

[Preston]

You actually do have a lot of stories. You just forget about them. I don't forget about your stories. You forget about your stories because I don't.

[Jackie]

I just think compared to yours it's just not as interesting. However, this one is what happened, I told when we was at that conference, I brought it up because I forgot it. I did forget it happened. We was at this like evangel evangelistic mission conference and they were like training everybody to like go out into Atlanta to go preach the gospel. Gospel on campuses. And I told you about how when I was in la, well one I, I was telling Preston how like one of the things that I just really didn't enjoy was that for a long season I was a part of a church where like our everybody had to evangelize. But we weren't trained to evangelize in a way that was suitable to our personality or honoring of our gifts. And so they had me out there like it was bold tv. Like I was Preston Perry. I didn't even know you yet, but I was just, I thought I was like a bad evangelist when it's like you're just not that person.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

So anyway, because it's a legalistic church, you gotta do it lest you go to hell. And so they sent us out. It was like a festival or something. And they connected us with, like, they had us in pairs, probably trying to be like Jesus when he sent the people out in pairs. And I had never met the girl I was with before. Understand, y' all gotta follow the story. Never met her before. So mind you, she's a stranger. I'm an introvert. I'm not. I'm not an evangelist. At that time, I didn't know I was a teacher. I didn't know what my gifts were. I just know y' all told us to go preach the gospel. I know Matthew 8:28 is a thing. I don't want to disobey God, cuz I don't want to go to hell. And so I'm out there with this girl and I'm trying my.

[Preston]

I'm trying not to laugh because I know what's coming.

[Jackie]

I try my best to. To be faithful to the Great Commission. And at some point, the girl turns to me and she's like, where am I? Where am I?

[Preston]

I'm sorry, I got something stuck in my throat.

[Jackie]

Where am I? And I said, we had. We had the fest, giving the gospel. And she started looking around like she was lost. And I'm like, girl, we've been. We've been out here like Paul and Barnabas. I don't. I don't know why you confused all of a sudden. Come to find out she had a seizure and lost her memory some kind of way. And so I'm like, why y' all not. Y' all already got me on a commission. I'm not called to, but called to. And this girl don't remember me. She doesn't know who I. And so what am I? You know how awkward I am? What am I supposed to do with that? And so I go to the. Like the. To Levi. I don't know he.

[Preston]

Levi.

[Jackie]

I said, she. She don't. She don't remember me, bro. Like, she don't know. She don't know where she at. And she need to go home. And so I said, you need to wear a lanyard. Like, you need to have something on your neck or something around your wrist to let people know what happened. And I'm like, is it demonic? Like, what happened to her?

[Preston]

Listen to me. When you first told me this story, I laughed so hard.

[Jackie]

Imagine my face when she told me, where am I?

[Preston]

That's what I was just about to say. I would have. I would have paid any kind of money to see frantic.

[Jackie]

I am 19, awkward, not knowing I. I was gay seven months ago. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know why you can't remember. I just met you, so I can't even give you any descriptions about who you are either. I don't know who you are.

[Preston]

Hilarious, bro. I would have, I would have paid all kind of money to see your face because I. Cause when Jackie gets. When Jackie get like awkward and don't know what to do, she just has

[Jackie]

one of those like, I'm going home, I'm going home. Put me on whatever shuttle bus. We got to go, we got to go. So that was it.

[Preston]

Apart from the girl losing her memory. I'm preaching, lost it, lost it.

[Jackie]

Did not know where she was.

[Preston]

I'm just.

[Jackie]

Do I give you water? How do you return memory back to somebody?

[Preston]

I would have paid any kind of Money to see 19 year old Jackie out there evangelizing, just talking to strangers.

[Jackie]

If I was a salesman, I wouldn't make no commission. If I tap you on your shoulder. Do you know Jesus? No. I want to know. I'm back. Cool. Like, I'm not finna. I'm not finna. Keep going. Now my method, because I don't know if I told you when we was going on. When I was going on trips to New York with Megan and Jordan stuff, I would, I just had random moments where I would give people the gospel. But it's like I have a confidence now that's different because I'm not trying to not be myself. Yeah, for sure. I'm not trying to be you. I'm not trying to be Ray Comfort. I'm not trying to be none of these people. I'm going to ask you a question. And I have a. I have a. I'm very perceptive. And so I'm able. I felt like the Lord is able to help me get underneath the reasons people are responding to my questions. And so I would more so interrogate that than try to get into some apologetic conversation.

[Preston]

Jackie would come back from our trips telling me about, you know, the gossip conversation she had with the Uber driver and people like that. And I would just feel like a proud dad. Even though I'm not her dad.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Cause they talking about, you know, the second stanza of the Quran. I don't actually. I just know that Jesus. Lord.

[Preston]

But what's crazy is one thing I thought about, I was like, she ain't never had these gospel presentations when I'm on a trip with her.

[Jackie]

Why? I barely want you to. I want us to Sit down and eat. And you. But you don't do it as much as you used to.

[Preston]

I don't do it as much as I used to, but I still.

[Jackie]

What happened? What's that about? You discouraged?

[Preston]

No, I'm not discouraged. I just crazy. I just came back from Chicago. I had some really great gospel conversations with my Uber driver. But I don't know, man. I feel like in this season, the Lord is really gearing my heart to minister to men. And so, like, I'm still an evangelist, but I think a lot of my heart and my attention has been, you know, geared toward, like, building up men. So I haven't been having a lot of evangelism conversations as much as I used to.

[Jackie]

That's sweet. Well, we're gonna do a Q and A episode. Cause we didn't know what to talk about. That's why we'd be having all these guests low key. We don't know what to say, which is fine. Huh?

[Preston]

We said a lot over the years.

[Jackie]

I mean, we've been doing this since 2018. 2019. 18. And we have a lot to say. I just think we tired, so we're just tired. And so it's just like we don't. I don't feel like thinking about no topic. So Q and A episode works. And speaking of men, this man said, it's very broad, so take this however you want to. But he said, ain't even a question dealing with insecurity as a man, period.

[Preston]

Right.

[Jackie]

Take that where you want to.

[Preston]

What's the question? Can you ask it again? Because it was right, right there when you had. It was like, right here. And I was like, thinking about that and then thinking about the.

[Jackie]

What you had said, dealing with insecurity as a man.

[Preston]

You insecure broke.

[Jackie]

Yeah, they all are.

[Preston]

Don't say they all are.

[Jackie]

Theologically speaking, we all are human and frail.

[Preston]

Okay?

[Jackie]

And finite. And therefore insecurity is a common point of experience because we are not God, therefore we are not secure. And so in our maturing and our trust and our faithfulness, then we're able to find security in him. That then is expressed in gender specific terms.

[Preston]

Now that you put it that way. I agree. I agree.

[Jackie]

That wasn't like me being condescending. It's just, I think it seems as if women are more comfortable with acknowledging their insecurities than men are.

[Preston]

Yeah, yeah. I think insecurity is a real thing that we all go through. But. And I think a lot of times we're attacked with insecurity because of Our call to be leaders, to be husbands, to be fathers. Because if he can make us unsure, environments become unsure, okay? Communities become unsure, societies become unsure, churches become unsure. And I think that, you know, God wants humble men, but he wants secure men, men who are secure in Him. And so I think the way you deal with insecurity is with leading, with honesty. The more honest we are with God, and the more honest we are with ourselves, the more he helps us with our insecurity. And so there were times in which I just. I can't even count how many times I felt insecure in my manhood. When we. When you first got pregnant with our first child, I felt so insecure as a father. When I, you know, became a husband, I felt so insecure as a husband. I still feel insecure as a husband at times. And I think a lot of times it's me just going to the Lord with my insecurities and saying, lord, help me, you know? And I think that a righteous man and a wise man never really gets tired of running to the Lord for help, but also too lean into those insecurities. I think God wants to, because one thing that I've seen in the Christian faith, you have men on two sides of the extreme. You have men who are really haughty and. And prideful. You have men who are really insecure. And a lot of times those men who are really haughty and prideful, they're just hiding insecurity. And men who are really insecure, they're on the borderline of being prideful. And it's like God wants us kind of like in the middle, where he wants us to be aware of our weaknesses. He wants us to be aware of our shortcomings, but he wants us to have a dependency on him that displays to the world that we're not perfect and we're not strong. We just trust in a perfect and a strong God. And so for me, instead of, like, being. I think what I'm trying to say is I think a perspective probably needs to change, right? Instead of you focusing on your weaknesses, which is making you insecure, to say, man, how is God want to utilize my weakness to show the world him that's good? You know what I'm saying? And so for me, it's like, yeah, I'm weak. Yeah, I struggle with this. Yeah, I struggle with that. Which is the reason why I felt like the first podcast that the Lord wanted me to do was my confession about how I struggle with porn. I wanted to. I feel like he wanted me to display to the world a weakness that I had in my faith of a world that looked at me like this spiritual leader to. To. To display to the world world like, no, I'm actually trusting in a holy and a righteous God for my strength. And so instead of, like, meditating on your weaknesses, ask the Lord how you want to use my weaknesses to show the world you.

[Jackie]

Yeah, I think when you were talking, I thought about Moses, you know, and how the Lord had called him to lead Israel out of Egypt and to communicate that whole thing to Pharaoh. And he over here like, yeah, I don't talk good, though, you know, and the Lord is like, but who made man's mouth?

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

And so insecure. Like, to imagine Moses being insecure should be encouraging. Especially when you finish reading Exodus and Deuteronomy and you see that his insecurities did not keep him from being useful. His insecurities actually put him in a position to experience God's sufficiency. And I think that's just a word for all of us.

[Preston]

Yeah, yeah. And also too, for the men out there who struggle with insecurity. Pray that the Lord will send the right people in your life. Pray that the Lord will send people in your life that will encourage you in your manhood who won't always. Because you don't need people around you who see your weaknesses more than they see your strengths. You know, you need people who want to encourage you, remind you who you are in Christ and who will love you. Well, because, you know, a lot of times we just need love. Unfortunately, a lot of people leave this earth and leave their families with a lot of debt, a lot of bills to pay. And when we leave this earth, we want the insurance to know that our family is not left with a whole bunch of stress and bills. And that's why I think thinking about life insurance right now while we're on this earth is so important.

[Jackie]

Fabric by Gerber Life is termed life insurance. You can get done today. Made for busy parents like you, all online, all on your schedule, right from your couc couch, you could be covered in under 10 minutes, often with no health exam required. If you got kids, and especially if you're young and healthy, the time to lock in low rates is now. If you have life insurance through your employer, it may not offer enough protection for your family, and it may not follow you if you decide to leave your job. Fabric actually has flexible, high quality policies that fit your family and your budget, like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. So there's no risk. There's a 30 day money back guarantee and you can cancel at any time. They have nearly 20005 star review Trustpilot with a rating of excellence. Join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] perry meetfabric.com perry and use our link so they know that we sent you. What is it again it is me. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Second question. Should we only date someone who is spiritually at the same pace?

[Preston]

Spiritually at the same pace? That's a good question. I mean, I, I wouldn't say spiritually at the same pace. I would love to ask that person what they mean by that because I don't necessarily think it's the pace, but I think it's the heart.

[Jackie]

Okay.

[Preston]

Meaning like, I think if a person is a believer and has the desire to know God and to make him known in the earth, I think technically y' all are on the same pace. Now what that looks like can look different depending on stages of life. Like you can marry somebody and then a year later he might be on a. Or she might be on a quicker pace than you. So I would be curious to know what, what is, what did he mean by pace?

[Jackie]

She might mean levels like as spiritually mature as you pursuing God in the same way that you do. Maybe because pace kind of communicates something different than quality.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

But I will say one, I think usually God kind of connects people who might, they might not be the same, but the gap isn't that far. So that's, that's what. Because I think that's also. Can't. That can be a part of the attraction in a sense. I think spiritual maturity matters. That's not to say that you should not date somebody who, like, they ain't got to be a beast, ain't got to be Apostle Paul I think what you said is perfect. Like their motive. Are they pursuing God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength? Are you pursuing God with all your heart, mind and strength matters? I think what I usually am more concerned about is if you are aware of the, the spiritual immaturity. Because I think if there's an unawareness of spiritual maturity, then you as a woman don't know how to pray, don't know how to challenge, and also don't know how these little, these little things when married will actually become big. And so I think there has to be some degree of awareness and discernment when it comes to the particular weaknesses and maturity that the other person has. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

[Preston]

For sure, because for me, when I hear that word pace, you know, because I don't know the person who asked the question, but it can be. It can be legitimate when she say pace. But then it's also people who, I think uses language like that to. To give areas. To give grace in areas where they shouldn't be giving grace.

[Jackie]

Correct? To correct.

[Preston]

And so I would just want to investigate the word pace. What do you mean by pace? Because if I come around him and I'm like, this ain't. He's not even running. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, what do you mean by pace? And I think a lot of times, you know what I've seen my sisters in Christ do? And I love my sisters in Christ, but I see my sisters in Christ do is because they like a person, they try to place them in the faith and say, they're just not where I'm at. And it's like, no, they're just not in the faith.

[Jackie]

They're just not there.

[Preston]

They're just not there. And I think because you like them, you're trying to make him a part of this race when he hasn't even put on his shoes yet.

[Jackie]

And let's be clear. And we are taking of this question beyond what her.

[Preston]

I'm saying we just covering all areas that might be out there.

[Jackie]

Let's be clear. Because I remember having a conversation with somebody. I don't know who it was. It might have been somebody at an event. And she was just saying how her boyfriend, you know, he doesn't read the Bible as much as she does. And he just started going to church. And you know, but like all the stuff. And I was like, so you're discipling him basically. And I was like, you don't want to even begin having this rhythm of being responsible for his discipleship because that will be a real hindrance in your marriage. Because if you have to encourage him to go to church, if you have to encourage him to read the Bible, if you have to encourage him to die to self if you have. If you have to lay down the foundation of no, we're not going to have sex, if you got to do all of that, then I don't know how you expect him to not only lead your home spiritually, but then to lead your children spiritually. And so there needs to be some kind of Conviction that's independent of you for, I think, a relationship to be.

[Preston]

Yeah. Because I think one thing that's not helpful is for us to think that it's our job to help deliver the person that we're interested in.

[Jackie]

Hello.

[Preston]

Or help that person come into spiritual. Well, you gotta check your own heart. Do you really want him to come to spiritual maturity because you wanna be with him, or is it because you really love him? You know, as a sister in Christ, you know, that's one. But then two, I think that when we try to put somewhere where they're not, we're just setting ourselves up for failure, for heartbreak, disappointment. Disappointment in all the things. And I think the helpful thing for us to do, and it might be hard at first, but I think it's to say, instead of me thinking about, you know, me in a relationship with this person, this guy, even for the sisters, me, relationship with. I mean, brothers in relationship with this girl, how can I, as a brother or a sister in Christ, place them in and encourage them to go in community to really help their growth? Right? Because I think men are going to thrive and grow spiritually amongst other mature men. And I think the same thing for women. And I think that we just need community. And so instead of you thinking about, how can I be this person to help them? It's like, no, how can I create environments where this person can grow in the community? And I think how a person responds in community shows you who they are.

[Jackie]

Oh, yeah.

[Preston]

If they don't love the people in their community, don't get surprised when y' all get in a relationship. Year two, he don't love you. And it's like, I mean, community is actually a good measure of who you. Because a person can kind of show you, like, whatever they want to show you when y' all dating. But it's like, okay, you don't want to submit to no leaders. You don't want to.

[Jackie]

Community gives you additional eyes, right? Like, it really is hard to discern. I mean, you can discern alone. But even where you even to ask that question communicates that your discernment needs help. Right? And so I think other Christians, wiser, older Christians that have been around the block sometimes can be like, yeah, I see this in him, or I see that in her, or, I see. And you probably ain't seen it. You know what I'm saying? And so somebody else could say, nah, the pace is, they all right. They good. They chilling. You probably need to move this way. So I just.

[Preston]

And when you get a Spouse. A golly spouse. Your spouse be seeing stuff. I'm telling you. Men. Listen to your women.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Preston]

Listen to your. Listen to your golly wives. Cause Jackie done told me. Yeah, this person. Jackie be reading people in 5.3 seconds. I know.

[Jackie]

And it's like, people don't be believing me.

[Preston]

I be like.

[Jackie]

And it just always. It always happens.

[Preston]

Yeah, she. She read. She read a couple of friends that I am like,

[Jackie]

it's just. No, you don't want me to be so cool.

[Preston]

It's a blessing and dang right.

[Jackie]

I just wish people trusted my discernment more. You do. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Anyway, let's see. When we get to heaven, will we know our loved ones, who our loved ones are, or get to see and know it's them? I like this question because I really enjoy talking about what heaven might be. And you know what's crazy?

[Preston]

Can I cut you off real quick? My last event that I did, I just did an event in Chicago, and I was taking pictures with people, and these girls walked up to me, and she said, on one of our y' all podcasts the other day, you and Jackie went on a rant about heaven one time. I don't know what they were talking about. And they used to start saying all the things that we was talking about about heaven, and they was like, y' all need to do an episode about that. Can y' all please do an episode about that?

[Jackie]

That just happened about heaven.

[Preston]

Yeah, we went on a rant about heaven. I think I kind of remember that we was talking about, like, how heaven is gonna be normal. Like, we gonna be, like, living.

[Jackie]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Preston]

I think that was probably, like, two, maybe three years ago, probably.

[Jackie]

And I'm probably gonna say the same thing, which is a big part of my. The paradigm shift for me when it came to how I view and understand heaven was when I read Randy Alcorn's book on heaven, because he talks about how we often think of heaven in these super, like, these terms that aren't even in the Bible. Like, we all just gonna be floating in the clouds with white dresses or whatever on and just looking weird and just not doing nothing productive, just up there. That's boring. Like, I just can't imagine just floating around in the cloud, like. Like the. You remember the game Super Mario where you jump up the box and get in the cloud? I don't want to do that. And Randy talks about how it's not as though Earth is its own replica. It's that Earth is Mirroring what the new heavens and the new earth will be. Except the difference is heaven will be earth without sin. It will be cleansed of sin. It will be made new, it will be redeemed. And so all that we experience here, just imagine that in heaven or without sin, without wickedness, without Satan, without demons. So community, cities, culture, art, books, music, all of that is present. So when asking the question of, do we think we'll see people we know? Why wouldn't we? That's what community is. I think I personally, and I don't got no scripture for this. I just think it's possibly true. I personally think that we will know the people we've known because that too is a part of why we worship. So if I see my children, I'm going to be reflecting on the fact that they were stewardship for a season. Thank you, Lord. If I see pastors that preach to me and encourage me, that becomes a part of the worship. So to me, I think having access to and being familiar with people, like, we won't be husband and wife. I won't be their mother. I won't. Like, we are all just sisters and brothers in Christ, a part of this big family. But it's the people within that family that I knew on earth that actually are the reason that brought me here.

[Preston]

That's very interesting.

[Jackie]

Does it make sense?

[Preston]

No, it makes sense that we've had conversations like this throughout the years, me and you or whatever, and it makes sense. But, you know, like you said, we won't be husband and wife, unlike what the Mormons think. They believe in celestial marriages, and they believe they're going to be married for all of eternity.

[Jackie]

I'm sorry, here to.

[Preston]

Yeah, but we won't be husband and wife. And I'm like, man, because I know you used to be my wife on earth. I mean, like. And I know I'm not going to handle sin, but, like, I don't know, would it ever be a temptation where you walk past and look at your butt? I'm like. Like, I used to look at her, but all the time on earth. And it wasn't sin because you my wife. And so, like, now I'm in heaven

[Jackie]

till death do us part. It would actually be sin up there because we're not.

[Preston]

So I'm not gonna lie to desire.

[Jackie]

It's not gonna be there.

[Preston]

That's crazy to think about. Yeah. I'm just saying I'm on how to. Because I'm gonna be without sin.

[Jackie]

That is so typical. That. That's. That's That's a part of what comes to your mind.

[Preston]

No, no, I'm saying like just normal thing.

[Jackie]

Not time with God and freedom from sin and.

[Preston]

No, no. When I think about heaven, the thing that I think about the most is communion with God, fellowship with God for all of eternity. Like, man, it's 10,000 years gonna be. And I'm gonna still be with Jesus.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Preston]

But as it relates to our marriage, the reason I thought about that. Cause I'm like. Just little things. Like, you know, when I walk past you in the kitchen, I be like, you wanting to like, you know, and like, look at you. And I'm like, nah, she's just my sister. That's crazy to think about.

[Jackie]

You will just be my. I mean, I technically am still your sister.

[Preston]

That's kind of weird because we got four kids and I'm saying. And people know how we got those

[Jackie]

in the family of God. I technically am a sister in Christ that is also your wife. And then when we die, we shed those earthly categories and we just exist in the spiritual categories, which is, you are my brother in Christ and I'm your sister in Christ.

[Preston]

Yeah, I know.

[Jackie]

And we were brought together for a season.

[Preston]

I think what I'm trying to say is.

[Jackie]

I know what you're trying to say.

[Preston]

No, no. I want to kind of explain deeper. I know we're going to be void of sin. Right, But. And I know we're not going to struggle with sin, but because we still have the memory of Earth. If we do still have the memory of Earth in the way, would it be an adjustment? I think.

[Jackie]

I don't think so.

[Preston]

Yeah. So in my mind, I'm trying to wrap my head around what does not having an adjustment look like.

[Jackie]

It's like, hey, mama, you can't tell

[Preston]

me what to do no more. You know what I'm saying? Like. And just functioning as like in heaven. Not like, that's just weird. I don't know. We don't know until we get there. But just that adjustment. If we are aware, how do we not have that adjustment?

[Jackie]

That would be interesting to think about that as an adjustment. Because the way I've always imagined heaven is like going home, literally, where you actually feel more normal there than you have ever felt here.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

And so I'm not saying there won't be adjustment. We don't know. We're arguing possibilities. I'm just saying if it's home, that's actually really. Then there isn't an adjustment. It's like a Sigh.

[Preston]

That's actually so deep. I'm sorry? That's so deep.

[Jackie]

That's just a hunch. I don't know.

[Preston]

No, seriously, like for us to get to heaven and be like, oh, we feel how we supposed to feel the whole time?

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Preston]

Like, oh, this is how I supposed to think the whole time?

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Preston]

Like this is how.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Yeah, Girl. Winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. I think about heaven a lot because I have to. But I've thought about the idea. I might have said this before, but I was like, a lot of times we think about heaven simply in terms of there's no more sin. But I'm like, to have no more sin means there's also no more anxiety. Not to say that sin, anxiety, all forms of anxiety are sin, but anxiety is an experience we have because we live within a broken world that was broken by sin, Right? And so I'm thinking about what would it be like to move around people and not have social anxiety? What would it be like to be in conversation with people and not have to be curious about their motives because now all of everybody's motives are pure. What would it be like? Like that when you get down to the nitty gritty of how sin has affected our bodies, affected our communities, affected our minds, affected our emotions, affected our brain. Like, when you think of all of that being lifted.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Is insane.

[Preston]

That's. That's really dope. That's really dope because like when we think about sanctification here on this earth, it is essentially being slowly conformed into the image of Christ being perfected, right? And our perfection really won't be complete until we get to glory till we die. And so until that day, we're consistently being perfected. But when we are in heaven, it is like, it is like we are perfect. We are, we are literally. Like, literally. And so like our minds, our thought processes, even Paul says that our resurrected bodies will not even look like our earthly bodies, even, even trauma bodies would be perfected.

[Jackie]

It's like a glorified body.

[Preston]

Like I'M not gonna have no crooked teeth. My teeth is gonna be straight. No, I feel like that's a result of the fall because I'd be looking at my t. All. This is the fall. This is the fall. I'll be looking at acne. I'm like, this is the fall.

[Jackie]

Okay. I. I think even considering, like, cellulite, that's the.

[Preston]

That's the.

[Jackie]

Imagine life where trauma is no longer a reference point.

[Preston]

That's crazy. That's crazy.

[Jackie]

My whole life now is. Trauma is a reference point for how I show up in my marriage, how I discipline my kids, why my thoughts think the same thing. Trauma is always being traced. But now it's like, yeah, I'm just new. I'm just. I'm just new. Yeah, it's. I. I don't know. I just. I think that. I really, really believe that's why God does not give us a lot of information about what that in between. Between death and resurrection life is or what heaven will be like. Like, we have descriptions like the heavens coming down and all this, but we don't actually know. And I think it's because God wants to surprise us. I think he's being a really good father. And he's like, nah, I wanna. I want this to be a gift to you that really can't even be explained without being experienced.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

So.

[Preston]

Yeah. You know, one thing I'd be thinking about often, it's just like. Because I can. I can sit and I can think about things for a very long time. Ponder over things. Acapano was something for hours or whatever.

[Jackie]

Rumination.

[Preston]

Yeah. And like, how much God just kind of wants us to be in wonder. I think wonder sparks curiosity, but also worship. And I think we have the temptation to just want to know everything. And I'm like, when I think about little things, like, I know this is gonna sound random, but just follow me when I think about, like, I love oceanography. I love, like, like thinking about the ocean. The fact that we only. Only 5% of the ocean has been explored, that 90 of the ocean has not been explored. Do you know, it's probably. It's sea monsters down there with 19 eyes that we've never seen.

[Jackie]

Oh, for sure.

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying? Like, in the fact that human beings, we find probably four to five new sea creatures every single day, that lets us know that God doesn't want us to know everything. But what if God just wants us in awe? It's like, what if he just wants us to, like, to be like man

[Jackie]

it's like when you've planned a little outing for your kids, and while they in the car, they like, where we going? Where we going? Where we going? It's like, you'll find out.

[Preston]

You'll find out.

[Jackie]

And when they get there, the joy is felt differently because they had to find out.

[Preston]

Wow.

[Jackie]

But not only was the joy felt particularly different for them, but it's also something that we, as their parents, share in. It's like we see the awe, we see the excitement. We see. See even the thought, like, they're. They don't even know, but they're happy that you thought of them in that way. And we take joy in that. It's like, it's a gift. And I just. I think heaven is a gift that we have not earned. It's a gift that we do not deserve. But through the just kindness and compassion of God, through the gospel, is something that we will receive.

[Preston]

Yeah. And the thing that I was thinking about, I was watching this show about the ocean, and then that sparked me reading about the ocean all night. And, you know, I was just exploring how, like, we can't go below the seabed because if we go, like, below the seabed, our heads will explode because of the pressure. So God, like, literally doesn't want us there. But in heaven, there's no death. And I was just wondering, like, would God allow us to dive below the seabed to see all the skill, the ocean animals that we've never seen before, and. I don't know. And life swim with whales. And I know we're gonna be living, live. But we can technically do things that we didn't do on Earth because there's no.

[Jackie]

I still think I'll be uninterested, but if you. I'm so grateful that the Lord might set that aside just for you.

[Preston]

No, what I'm saying is, like, people, we scuba dive right now, right?

[Jackie]

Ain't no we.

[Preston]

I'm saying people. But, like, you don't do it because you can't swim. Cause you'll die.

[Jackie]

No, it hasn't.

[Preston]

But in heaven, it's no death, so you can't.

[Jackie]

I just have no interest in it.

[Preston]

You wouldn't want to go down to the bottom of the ocean to see animals that you've never seen before.

[Jackie]

I'd rather have a conversation with Paul.

[Preston]

I'm saying you could talk to Paul. You got eternity. I'm saying, like, one day, just go to the bottom of the ocean. That's not interested in you.

[Jackie]

Maybe when God lifts the. I just. I Don't care.

[Preston]

Okay, what's the next question?

[Jackie]

All right. How to get deliverance from sexual immorality, or what scriptures do you recommend? I. I think I particularly like that question because I think it communicates a lot of things. One, I think we have to define deliverance. I think sometimes the framing of deliverance is the removal of all temptation. And that's not how Scripture often defines deliverance. The Bible talks about how we have been delivered out of the domain of darkness and into his marvelous light. Even when we think about Israel being delivered out of Egypt, in both of those cases, you see that deliverance is being framed as a positional change. And so there is truly, in a sense, that if you are in Christ, you have been delivered. Even Romans 1 through 7 talks about how we've been delivered from the power of sin and death. Meaning that if I'm in Christ, I can look at my sin and say no. However, we still have this thing called indwelling yourself. Are you looking text? Yeah, we have this thing called indwelling sin where there is still a part of our old nature that we are constantly having to wrestle with, constantly having to deal with, constantly having to be put to death. And so I think knowing that you are in you ha. You've had a positional change. Where you are delivered already gives you confidence to know that as sexual temptation comes up, it does not have to have dominion over you. Yeah, I say all that to say because that's important. What would you have to say?

[Preston]

I was just going to read 1st Corinthians 6, starting at the 12 verse. It says, all things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but not all. But. But I will not be dominated by anything. Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy both, one one for the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but the body is meant for the Lord and the Lord for the body. And he and God raised the Lord and he will also raise us up with the same power. And so one like truly getting in your psyche, your mind, your heart, that your body literally was not created for sexual immorality. Your body was created for something way more glorious. Way like, way better. Right. And so I think a lot of men, especially men I talk to about this. It's like you need to look at yourself like you are devaluing your body and the purpose in which your body was created for the society and the world that we live in. Don't really teach us that. But it's like, no. Like, you wouldn't treat your possessions in the way that you treat your body if you truly understood what sexual immorality does to the body and to the temple of God. And so. But also to read other ways in which the men of God.

[Jackie]

That's a woman.

[Preston]

Oh, that's a woman. Well, mankind struggle with lust. Like Job. I love how Job, in the book of Job, he said, I made a covenant with my eyes not to look on a woman with us. Meaning a binding agreement. And so there is practical things. And so every time I've been tempted to look on a woman with us, I think about those words. And so putting the word in your heart also helps as well.

[Jackie]

And I think identifying what you are needy of because a lot of times we don't discern the need underneath the sexual activity. You know what I'm saying? So you got people who are. They are engaging in certain practices for comfort or for identity or for encouragement or for like, there are reasons. It's not just lust. There's something underneath that, that you're after. And so I think that's also an element of freedom, is identifying the neediness that you're trying to satisfy immorality rather than turning to the Lord with. And so, you know, I've talked to women who talk about how they're most tempted to masturbate when they feel alone. And so they weren't even horny like that. They just felt lonely and so wanted comfort. Yeah. Because they don't have community. They turn to that and then they dealt with the shame and da, da, da, da, da. And so it's at that point where the loneliness has to be turned into intimacy rather than. And immorality, where it's like, okay, I have to go through some texts that talk about how God will never leave me nor forsake me. How he is a shepherd and who walks with me even in the valley of the shadow of death. He is with me. His sprout and his staff will comfort me. That he will comfort me in all of my afflictions. Like he is a refuge in time. Like, go through that book and find promises to help you in your time of need so that you can cling to that more than you cling to lustful thoughts. That's how you press in. Because I think even when deliverance is considered as like some spontaneous. And I'm not saying God don't do that. He does. But I'm saying if we only look at deliverance as the immediate removal of a temptation or the immediate removal of a struggle, then you will actually find yourself really having a hard time when it don't go away. You know what I'm saying? When you realize, like, oh, I got to actually wrestle the angel. I actually got to. I got to wrestle. I got to wait. I got to fight. I got to. Terry. I got to invite other people into this to pray and intercede with me like that. That freedom from sin and godliness takes work, and deliverance sometimes is framed in such a way where it's. It's. It can be communicated like a prosperity gospel. God got to take this away. How am I obey him? Well, what do you think Gethsemane was? Gethsemane was God coming before God, saying, can you please take this cup away? He obviously wasn't fleeing sin, but he did not want to take that cup. But he submitted himself to the Lord and said, not your will, but my. You will be done. And the Bible says that the angel strengthened him. So there might be times where the thorn is not taken away, where the cup is not taken away, and you are still called to obey, but you are strengthened as you labor for God.

[Preston]

Yeah, that's good. Pretty face. Cause God knows what will destroy you, and God knows what will stretch you, you know, and so he's not gonna put nothing on you that you can bear. And so I think this goes to a lot of Christians to say, if you're still struggling with this, you're not delivered. It's like, no, you're actually not biblical,

[Jackie]

because you're really not.

[Preston]

Because God does not take away all temptation. Sometimes God uses temptations to help conform us into the image of Christ. And you see, he did that with men in the Bible. He'll do it with us. And so if God is allowing you to go through something and say, God, okay, you're not taking this thing away from me. What do you want me to learn in the process? That's a great question to ask the Lord.

[Jackie]

Yeah, I'm going to just give one scripture real quick, just because I don't want people to mishear what you just just said. Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown, crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, I being tempted by God. For God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted. When he is lured and enticed by his own desire, then desire when it has conceived, gives birth to sin. And sin, when it is fully grown, brings forth death. And I. I just wanted to say. But God is sovereign and providential, and so he allows us to go through tests. He allows us to experience trials, temptations being a kind of trial. But he does not tempt us. He himself is not tempting us. It is our own desires. It is our own issue. And what I'm saying is, get underneath those desires, interrogate them, deal with them, lay them before the cross, and what will happen is you will discover that you have power. You really do have the power to fight. And so that's it.

[Preston]

That's good.

[Jackie]

All right, next question. How has Yalls marriage impacted your individual ministries and vice versa?

[Preston]

Oh, man. I'm so sick of you, bucko. I'm just playing.

[Jackie]

So you want me to be honest?

[Preston]

Oh, my gosh. The shade.

[Jackie]

Go ahead. Unless you want me to talk.

[Preston]

No, I'm thinking. I'm.

[Jackie]

It's.

[Preston]

It's so much because I think I. I've been on record saying this, you know, a lot, but I think that God bringing you into my life to be my wife has confirmed there's so many gifts that God has put in me. And so, yeah, I mean, I can't really go. I can't really go anywhere with people talking about my evangelism, you know, and how bold TV blessed them. But it was my wife. It was you who told me I need to do that and saw me on an everyday basis and saw that gift and saw that the world needed to see that gift. You know, it was you that made me stop doing poetry and was like, no, you need to stop doing poetry and traveling, doing poetry and write a book.

[Jackie]

Book.

[Preston]

And so I think the way you've impacted me in my spiritual walk is you just seeing my giftedness, you seeing, you know, what God has placed in me and kind of putting legs to a lot of the things that the Lord has given me. And so, yeah, you've been. You've been great in that way. Oh, sweet.

[Jackie]

Thank you. People won't like that response. They want me to climb over the couch or something. But I.

[Preston]

But I. Since I know you, I actually know when you appreciate something. I appreciate that people don't know you, but I.

[Jackie]

He's so affirming. And she just be sitting, and she's like, relax. We've been married 12 years. And what about you? But anywho. Yeah, I think you. Preston, has. How do I say it? You kind of have given me a lot of freedom to do me and not do me in a self oriented way. But if I feel like the Lord is like, oh, you should do this or consider this, like you're rarely, you're not insecure. That's one, two, that's a big thing. So even if you have counsel, that counsel is never coming from a place of insecurity, you know what I'm saying? Because that would be difficult to be in partnership with somebody where they are, they express some type of critique or counsel and you don't know what motive that counsel's coming from.

[Preston]

Yeah, no, I just trying to help you out.

[Jackie]

And so I think it's helpful to know like it's never coming from insecurities. It might be, you know, have you considered this option or what that would do? And da da, da, da. And so I just think you've given me a lot, I've said it before, you just give me a lot of freedom to fly and walk in the gifts that God has given me. I think secondarily, genuinely, I think our marriage is not merely your activity that I think has served my ministries, but it's the context of the marriage. And what I mean is if y' all listen to us long enough, you know, I've said I was the only child and so there was, there's selfishness in me and, and I think I would not be as fruitful if I did not have a context that required me to serve. You get what I'm saying? Like, so to have a husband, to have four kids, that means constantly I am having to serve someone outside of myself. I'm having to consider the kids, I'm having to consider you, I'm having to pray, I'm having to do all this stuff. If I was able to preach and just go home, I would be so arrogant. I wouldn't have to deal with stuff. You understand what I'm saying? I would just be able to be self absorbed in the same way that I grew up. And so I think the context of the marriage actually influences the humility in which I'm able to present myself in, in ministry. And that's not to say I'm humble, it's to say I've been humbled. And so I just have a servant orientation that I would not have if I wasn't married.

[Preston]

I'll be getting on your nerves sometimes.

[Jackie]

You always do this coughing is getting on my nerves.

[Preston]

Sorry.

[Jackie]

You don't see me kicking the bucket, do you? So, yeah, I think we serve each other in manifold ways. You have more to say?

[Preston]

I'm not gonna say it.

[Jackie]

Go ahead. The people wanna know. Now,

[Preston]

when I be

[Jackie]

you about to say something really

[Preston]

giving you pushback on things. Do you. How do you. How do you think a young couple, young married couple should deal with their spouse giving them pushback on certain things?

[Jackie]

Sometimes I'll be like, as a woman or as a.

[Preston]

As a woman, as a husband. Cause I can give the husband, husband's perspective too.

[Jackie]

Um, yeah, it's hard because especially if you feel like God wants you to do something, if you have legitimate reasons for it, if it's a strong conviction, it can feel as if your spouse is opposing that vision, which then develops this idea that your spouse is somehow an enemy to God's call. And that's never a reality. It's just literally never a reality. I think it took time for me to realize that if God is calling me to do something, he's not going to go around you, you. He's going to confirm through you.

[Preston]

That's good.

[Jackie]

And so. And that's just having some type of conviction that Ephesians 5 is true. Right. That the husband is the head of the wife and the wife is submit to the husband as the church submits to Christ. And so it's like I have to consider your perspective in the sense that that just kind of is the order of this whole thing. But that's not to say that you might have a husband that. That is insecure. Or maybe I didn't communicate the vision clear enough. Or maybe they have concerns that they don't know how to articulate well. Like they're afraid that you might get distracted away from the kids or afraid that you might. Da, da, da. And so I think that's when you go into intercession and say, lord, if this is from you, I've often prayed this all the time. If this is from you, confirm it through Preston. If this is from. From you, comfort Preston. If this is from you, give Preston wisdom and perspective on this issue. So that already kind of sets the stage where now you're trust God to expose any sinful motives in the criticism or the council, but also to comfort where there might be legitimate anxiety that only God could quench. And so I think having the conversation, talking through all the things, but also being in the background praying and interceding, all of that matters.

[Preston]

Yeah, and I want to. That's good, babe. And I want to talk from a man's perspective, because I think a man needs to submit to his wife in a way that's. That will serve him in his home as well. Because even in our relationship, I kind of give you maybe challenges or things that I see and make you mad or whatever, but you always do, like, a great job of saying, okay, I don't like this, but I'm gonna submit to the Lord, yada, yada, yada, submit to you. I appreciate that. But then you come to me, and I think sometimes men can have this struggle because it's like, technically they're the head of their home, and it's like, no, you also, like, a big part of trusting God is trusting that, trusting the wife that he's giving you. Trusting in her discernment, trusting in her. And when I say trusting, not putting her a voice above God or even becoming passive, because you can trust in your wife without being passive at the same time. But what I am saying is, I think men who don't truly consider how God is speaking through their wife's voice, they end up messed up. You know what I'm saying? And so for me, yeah, some certain things, just certain challenges, certain things you shown me about myself, and I had to just sit and pray and ponder about it. And then the Lord kind of just showed me eventually, like, she's right. This is me talking. You know what I mean? And so, yeah, just, you know, listening to your spouse, considering your spouse. And I think really what it boils down to is you and your spouse being on the same accord, same page. Like, being on one accord, and y' all being in sync with the Lord and being in sync with one another, it's actually a powerful tool. And it's to serve you not to. Because what the devil wants to convince you, the devil wants you to convince you that your spouse is your enemy. Oh, yeah, like, that he's not for you, that she's not for you. And it's just like, no, like, God is actually using your spouse to draw you to him in ways that no other relationship can. And that's the reason why you being lied to so much. And so, yeah, just trust that God is speaking to your spouse.

[Jackie]

Yeah, I'll share even this quick story because I think clear communication with each other, but also intimacy with God is what makes the difference. For example, when we moved, Preston found his house somewhere that I ain't want to be, you understand? I had a size, a look, a location in my mind, and what he was suggesting and what he was giving me completely clashed with what I wanted. And so we came and looked at a house, and I'm like, I mean, it's cool, but it's not.

[Preston]

I don't like this house.

[Jackie]

It's not what was in my mind

[Preston]

and your face all the time was like this.

[Jackie]

Yeah, I just, I wasn't a fan. And so the thing the, the Lord knows me. He knows I, I be needing some confirmations. Low key outside of Preston. He knows that. So I walk in the kitchen and it's a sign on the pantry door that says, welcome to the Perry's home. Why? Because the previous owners were named Perry. I said, that's not confirmation. That's just, that is just a coincidence even I don't even believe in coincidence. I said that. I don't mean nothing to me. And so I'm like, yeah, it's cool, but it's. I don't want to live out here. So I think some weeks go past and this house keeps coming to my heart. And I'm sitting here like, lord, I don't want to live there. Like, I, I, I really don't want to live there. And I promise you, God took me to when he was talking to Abraham or no something with Abraham. And how like the Lord is like, I decide where you live. I'm like, okay, don't know what that means. But again, I'm telling myself, maybe I'm thinking that and it ain't actually the Lord. So then we go look at some other houses and you like, hey, can we just go back and visit the house again? Because the president know I need to process. And so we come back and there's a trail behind our house. And it was this strong sense that dropped on me, like, this is your house. I was like, all right, we can put in an offer, dude, it's cool. Like, I'm not gonna acquiesce in a way that is the most. Like, I'm gonna just be like, all right. Cause what I'm gonna do is obey the Lord. All right.

[Preston]

Yeah. And what's crazy is I'm gon. I want to quickly tell my perspective just because I think it, I think it may be helpful for men who are, who trying to lead. Because God wants us to be leaders, but he wants us to be leaders in gentle, not domineering ways, but in ways that will help your wife actually hear from the Lord. Like you heard from the Lord, if that makes sense. And so for me, before I even found this house, I knew the Lord wanted us to live in this area. And so I knew you was going to. I knew you was going to be give me pushback because I knew, I knew what kind of area you want to live in. I'm like, I don't think God wants to live in that area. So we come and see this house. And I'm like, I think this is the house, right? So I'm like, okay, Lord, I think you want us to live in this area. I think you. I think this is our house. But there's Jackie.

[Jackie]

Yes, there is.

[Preston]

You know, and so. And so I just prayed. When I was praying that you liked the house, but I just prayed and you didn't like the house, I was like, okay, I'm not gonna get discouraged. I'm just gonna pray. So what we did was we looked at a house in the same area and I said, I think it's gonna irritate Jackie, but I'm gonna ask her anyways. Jackie, you wanna go back to the house that we looked at that you didn't like? He was like, okay, if you want to. Yada, yada, yada.

[Jackie]

Sure.

[Preston]

And when we came back, that's what you need. When we came back, that's when we saw the sign that said walk upon Perry.

[Jackie]

I saw that the first time you did it.

[Preston]

I didn't. That's crazy.

[Jackie]

I saw the first. It made me mad.

[Preston]

I. I saw it the second time.

[Jackie]

I saw it the first time. That's why I wrestled with God. Because to those two weeks we didn't come back. Cuz I'm like, I can't shake how obvious that was.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

You know what I'm saying?

[Preston]

Yeah. That's crazy. And so like, for me, I'm sitting. I'm be sitting in the basement with our real estate agent, and I'm sitting there like, Lord, I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm like, like, not frustrated, but I am like, lord, I feel like you showing me that this is the area that we supposed to live in. This is the house we wanna live in. And Jackie don't like it. Like, why? Well, you know. And so what's crazy is my real estate agent got up and said, y' all go, go. Y' all haven't walked the trail yet. And as soon as she said that, I felt like Lord was like, I want you just to pray. So I just stopped praying that if God, this is your yada yada, your will or whatever. And as we walk in, you stop. And I'm like, why you stopped me? Like, let's make an offer on the house. I said, that was quick, Lord. I said that was quick. And so I think I say that to say this leadership does not always Mean bogarting your decision or, like, bogarting your way with your wife. Sometimes it's about just trusting in the Lord and trusting that the Holy Spirit also lives in your wife. Because you did this. The same. The exact same thing happened. It was vice versa.

[Jackie]

Moving to Atlanta.

[Preston]

When it was came to move to Atlanta, I was like, I'm staying in Chicago till I dare die. And you was like, no, I think we supposed to move to Atlanta. I'm like, I don't. The Lord didn't tell me that.

[Jackie]

No, I didn't even say that. I just said, have you ever thought about moving to Atlanta? And then you gave your whole diatribe about nothing. No, I was like, okay.

[Preston]

And then God just.

[Jackie]

I was just like. Because also, again, if the Lord is saying it, he's going to confirm it through you. He ain't going to go around you. So I'm like, well, I feel like the Lord wants us in Atlanta, but Preston doesn't seem to. So I'm g. Just keep praying.

[Preston]

Yeah, and I think that's really good because I. Because I just addressed the man and how the man should. Should lead. But I also. I think women should also be encouraged because you're strong. And I think a lot of times we measure strength wrong. So people, like, see a teaching gift and see you being used in certain ways, and it's like, but you actually are a strong woman. Not just because you teach well. You actually are a strong woman. But, you know, strength is also submission. And so the fact that you don't. You won't move. You won't try to force your way to move to Atlanta and try to force my hand. If I don't hear from the Lord, that's actually strength. You know what I'm saying, too?

[Jackie]

Because if I'm forcing your hand, there's actually no grace for the journey. Like, I want there to be.

[Preston]

You better talk pretty face.

[Jackie]

No, true. I want there to be.

[Preston]

You better talk pretty face.

[Jackie]

I don't want to move if there's no favor there, if there's no blessing there. And so if you're resistant to that, that actually might be because God's timing is perfect. Even your process of processing it is God orchestrating the timing by which we arrived. You know what I'm saying? So it all matters.

[Preston]

Yeah, that's good. That's good. All right, next question.

[Jackie]

Why is Jackie not open to talking more about her prophetic dreams? You're nosy. Kidding. I don't. I guess I must have talked about them kind of like, when do I talk about them at all? I guess with the whole August and me having that dream and stuff like that is a thing. I think people. People, I don't know, I think people get weird when you start to talk about certain spiritual giftings or experiences. And so I think there's a carefulness that I have now, especially because I remember even when I was on Twitter back in the day and I shared about the situation with August. I'll share real briefly. The Lord had told me we were going to have a son. And I specific like, I heard him. It's not audible, but there was a strong unction that we were going to have a son. I wrote it in my phone. We got pregnant with Sage. I thought I was a false prophet. I said I must didn't hear from God. That must not have been true, et cetera, et cetera. Had to really grieve that for a second. And I realized that I was putting my own interpretation on what God said. It's like, just because he said you were going to have a son doesn't mean that you weren't going to have a daughter. And so we ended up in between that time. You ended up finna go get a vasectomy. The night before your vasectomy, I had a dream that I had a baby in my hand that was half alive. I say half alive because the baby wasn't dead or dying. It was like the baby was being kept from life. In the dream, I heard a voice say, do you trust me to have four kids? Do you trust me to have a fourth child? I woke up, I text you to dream. You told me how you had a dream where you sitting on the porch rocking back and forth as an older man, grieving the son that you kept yourself from having. This is all while Preston is in the parking lot about to get his vasectomy man. And so that dream was God.

[Preston]

That day was crazy.

[Jackie]

The dream was God communicating to me that he wanted me to trust him enough to give him my or surrender my womb again. That happens. I'm not gonna say often, but a lot. Like, I have a note in my phone of dreams of people getting pregnant that end up being pregnant or things that are happening. Like, I've had dreams about my children and stuff happens or warnings and stuff and all this stuff. And so I think I'm careful because one, I think sometimes people talk about gifts in a way that's unbiblical. I think sometimes people don't practice wisdom like you think that every dream is a God dream when it might not actually be like, it's like, nah, you got people like, I dreamed he was my husband. Yeah, because you was on his Instagram feed for two hours. It's in your subconscious. And so I think even the way people approach it feels immature and unwise and even unbiblical. But I think what has affirmed it is one, God used dreams to talk to Joseph when. What's that man name? Solomon. When Solomon asked God for wisdom, God didn't just show up in the kingdom. That whole covenant and that whole not covenant, but that whole prayer and exchange happened within a dream and he woke up and then somehow he got more wisdom. The way God communicated to Joseph when it came to Mary was with a dream. There's even a psalm that talks about dreams being visions of the night. And so I think with that, I think God does communicate to some people through dreams. We have to say for the theolog publicly minded, again, the canon is closed. We are not communicating new revelation. We are simply saying that God uses prophetic utterances and prophetic dreams to confirm, to confront, to convict. And it should never and will never contradict the word of God or even undermine the word of God if it is in fact from the Lord. And so I don't talk about it for that reason.

[Preston]

But I want to quickly add, I think it's a lot of wisdom of not always talking about what the Lord shows you. Because I think a lot of times the Lord because the canon is closed, because God is not revealing new things about himself as it relates to how we read this. Right. A lot of times the prophetic things is for our own personal journey and for the people in our lives. And sometimes it could be for the public as well. But I think because you, you have so much surrounding prophecy, you have the super theologically dense people who say God doesn't speak anymore. We're not on that side of the extreme either. It's like, no, God still speaks. And just because he doesn't speak to you in that way, you're trying to say that God doesn't use prophecy. And I just don't think that that's true. He's not creating new scripture. But I don't see nowhere in scripture where he doesn't say he doesn't speak to his people anymore. But then you have the other side of the extreme of people who abus use prophecy and they act like that's the most powerful gift in the body of Christ and you can't question them and all of the things. And so because of the abuse of it and because of how it's undermined. I think we just got to be careful of how we, like, even communicate the way the Lord speaks to us. Because, yeah, it could just be unwise to talk about that all the time.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Because even in Jude, one of the false teachers that Jude wanted, wanted them to confront. It said that they relied on their dreams, meaning that they were people that trusted their dreams more than the revealed word of God. And so I think that's. That's something that we have to be careful about. And so I think if you're a person who does not value the word of God, who does not esteem the word of God, who does not believe that it's inerrant, that it's authoritative, that it's sufficient, then that will lead you to lean into spiritual gifts as a. As a source of communication more than the revealed word of God. Yet at the same time, I want to read this verse if I can find it by the grace of God without using my phone. Yeah. So one text that I think is helpful is 1 Corinthians 14. It's talking about tongues and prophecy in the gathering of the saints. But it says, if therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? Because they don't. It's unintelligible. They're not knowing what's being said. But if all prophesy, an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all. The secrets of his heart are disclosed. And so falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among us. I say that because it's to say that in the gathering in the church, in the body, there is a biblical and beautiful use to prophetic utterances, which is that your heart is exposed, you're convicted, you're confronted, but you're also made aware that if this person has a dream or if this person has a prophetic utterance regarding something that should be a secret, it actually reveals to me that God knows my heart too. And so I think, yeah, I just. It's a gift that I have. And just walk in with discretion and so wisdom.

[Preston]

What's good?

[Jackie]

How do you guys balance addressing sin in your faith without drifting into legalism? I like that question.

[Preston]

I like that question, too, because I think anytime you address. Reason why I'm answering this question so quickly is because I just thought about this the other day.

[Jackie]

Real Quick, can you define legalism way

[Preston]

so methods, strategies, ideologies in which we try to obtain righteousness apart from the power of God and through works?

[Jackie]

Yep.

[Preston]

Yeah. Like having a checklist of do's and don'ts in order to be made righteous and not truly believing what Christ is doing done. And so I think when we, when we correct people. I'm glad you asked that question because I think that actually helps my answer because I think when we correct people out of. I don't do this. So you're not righteous because you do

[Jackie]

this,

[Preston]

that's automatically legalism, because we're correcting somebody off of what we don't do, not what Christ has done on their behalf, if that makes sense. And I think one way to correct people when it comes to sin while not falling into legalism is to have your sin like ever before you, because it's one.

[Jackie]

I don't think they're talking about correcting sin. How do you balance addressing sin in your faith without drifting into legalism?

[Preston]

Oh, your sin.

[Jackie]

So your own sin.

[Preston]

Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, like I think the same thing, but you just gotta do it yourself, you know what I'm saying? I think for me it is thinking about Christ more than I think about my own failure. Like thinking about Jesus more than I think about my own flaws. Because I think God wants to correct my sin. He wants to correct all the ways in which I'm not like him, but he wants to consistently remind me that I'm imperfect and my only hope is putting my faith in a perfect God. That's literally our only hope is as Christians. And so I think that if we remember that, I think that we won't have this pity party or even. I don't even know if I fall into legalism more than I fall into shame. That's an interesting question, because I think a lot of people fall into shame.

[Jackie]

It leads to legalism.

[Preston]

It can lead to legalism, especially if you don't want to deal with shame anymore and you actually don't know how to turn to Jesus, you'll start turning to works in order to be made righteous. Okay, I got guess that's. Yeah. What would you say?

[Jackie]

Yeah, you know, I've been studying legalism, so I won't say a lot because I'm still figuring it out. But at its core, legalism views God and the gospel in a way that isn't true. So for example there, like, I think it's a good interview image. You got Adam and Eve in the Garden, Genesis 3 He sinned against God by eating the fruit that he told them not to eat from. Immediately, what they do is they hide behind a tree because they hear God coming. They assume that this created thing will cover them. And so instead of turning to the Creator for forgiveness and for grace, they turn to something he made as an atonement thing. It's like the tree becomes the mediator. And I think ultimately that's what we all do when we don't have a real grasp on the gospel, is that we turn to ourselves, we turn to works, we turn to ministry. And it's. It's an attempt to hide behind the tree. Maybe if I get behind him, he won't see my pride. Maybe if I get behind this, he won't see my envy. Maybe if I get behind behind this, you won't see my covetousness. And it's a really heavy yoke. And so what Paul writes to the Galatians in Galatians, chapter three, he says, are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Ultimately, the way you deal with your sin is not by trying to work your way into God's graces. If you are in Christ, you are in grace. If you are in Christ, there is no condemnation. For those who are in Christ Jesus is that we turn to him and say, you know what? You died for that sin. You died for these sins. Can your blood or will you allow, like, will you forgive me and can you please cleanse my empty conscience immediately? You don't turn to your spiritual disciplines. You're turning to Christ, you're turning to him, you're turning to the Gospel. And all of the spiritual disciplines are not a means of proving something to God. All of the spiritual disciplines are used to soften your heart, to know him more, more, and to love him more and to honor him more. So then you start to walk in righteousness and holiness and godliness from a place of love that, like that love inspires the obedience rather than fear of wrath. Because I think that's underneath a lot of legalism, is there? It's this fear when the Lord is like no perfect love casted out all fear. And so I would say read the book of galatians, read Romans 1 through 9 and just always keep the Gospel before you at the end of the day. You could read the Bible all day long. But ultimately is what you see about Christ in this book as empowered by the Holy Spirit that gives you the power to say no to sin?

[Preston]

Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like ever in your walk, you've been tempted to be. You've been tempted with legalism.

[Jackie]

Yeah, at the beginning of my walk, because I didn't have a grasp on the love of God or the grace of God or the good news and how the good news, the gospel, was the only, only, only way to walk righteously. I think, if anything, I've struggled more with what they would call. It's not antinomianism that I struggle with, but antinomianism is anti law. So it's the opposite extreme. It's the person who says, well, you know, God is gracious, so we could just do whatever we want to do. Again, that was what Jude was coming at. He was like, they are saying that God's grace gives you license to sin. That also is a perverted view of God because it's as if to say that a holy God would allow you to live any kind of way, and he won't deal with it. And so I think, if anything, I've experienced a lot of seasons in my life where I get comfortable because he's gracious or I get comfortable because I'm saved. I get comfortable because I know what to do. And it's like, the Lord is like, just because I don't want you to be a legalist don't mean I want you to be lazy. Because that, that laziness or cedia, as some people would say, leads you into a kind of drifting and complacency and dullness of heart and mind that is just as unhealthy as the legalist. I think the legalist can look externally righteous and be internally flawed. While the antinomian is a person or the person who is a little lazy in their faith. Their stuff is a lot more obvious. But at the end of the day, both views are like, y' all both don't see the gospel correctly. The gospel saves and fills and cleanses, but it also demands that we live according and worthy of the repentance that we. Worthy of. Of the. What's it worthy of? The calling to which we have been called.

[Preston]

Yeah, that's a really. That's a really good point. And I think also, too, I think what you're saying and what I hear when I think a lot of.

[Jackie]

Am I making sense?

[Preston]

You're making. You're making a lot of sense. Because I think what Christians really need is a correct epistemology of law and grace. Like you. Like, if you truly understand the law, you won't fall in legalism. Right. Because the law, like, because if you understand why the law was given to us in the first place, you actually know how to apply it to your life in a righteous way. Because the law was given, Romans tells us, Paul tells us consistently, while the law was given, the law was given to us as a school teacher, as a school master, as a mirror to show us our righteousness. It's not given to us to prove our righteousness, it's given to us to show us our unrighteousness, to show us ourselves, sin. And so I use this analogy all the time. Like if I walk up to a mirror and the mirror shows me that my face is dirty, I am not to blame the mirror for my dirtiness, right? And so when Paul says, am I saying that the law of sin, God forbid, for if it had not been for the law, I would never known that I was in sin. What he's saying is, we can't blame the law because it shows us our sin, but because the law shows us our sin, right? In the same way a mirror shows us our dirty, we're dirty. We're to turn from the mirror and run to the person and run to the source that can clean us. We should not look to the mirror to clean us because the mirror is not the source that cleans us. So in the same way, law keeping can never make you righteous. In the same way a mirror can never make you clean. It is to show you that you are unclean. And it is to show you your need for the one who can clean you, right? And so in the same way I look in the mirror and I see that I'm dirty, I have to go to another source which is a shower to be made clean, clean. The same way the law shows us that we are unrighteous, we have to turn from the law because we can never keep the law perfectly. And we have to turn to the one who kept the law perfectly on our behalf. And when we place our faith in him, then we are made righteous to the finished works of Jesus.

[Jackie]

That's good.

[Preston]

And so that's how God wants us to apply the law.

[Jackie]

I feel like I should summarize that if you see sin in your life, you are struggling with a particular weakness. You got some thought patterns that's a little crazy, you got some character flaws, your mouth a little wild mouth a little while the legalistic posture is to say, okay, I'm going to do better, I'm going to read my Bible, I'm going to go to church, I'm going to keep the Sabbath, I'm going to do it. But no notice you're leaning on you. You're trusting in your strength. You're even trusting in your self determination to keep you rather than saying, let me get on my face, Lord, I'm sorry, I actually cannot be strong. I actually am very weak. These thoughts are actually really interesting to me. I feel strong when I talk to people in this way. Can you please change my heart? Can you please help me? Can you please give me the grace to love you and to love my neighbo? And as I read your word, please open up my understanding so I can see beauty in your word and beauty in your son. As I gather with the saints, please like notice all of the thoughts and all of the work is a work of faith. All of it is depending on him to produce in you what you cannot produce in yourself. And that is why a part of Paul's whole argument in the book of Romans when he is dealing with legalism, the way he deals with legalism is by continuing to communicate the spirit. Spirit you need, like legalists do not walk by the spirit, they walk in the flesh. It just looks spiritual. But the person who walks by the spirit, they are the ones that do not gratify the flesh. And that's the difference. And so I think what happens is we need to incline our hearts in prayer, in intercession and fasting to be filled with the power of the Spirit so that we can then walk righteously before God. And that is the difference. That's how you resist legalism while dealing with your sin.

[Preston]

Yeah. And I just want to quickly say, anytime we talk about the law,