Let’s Talk About Covetousness

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: With The Perrys

Episode: Let’s Talk About Covetousness
Hosts: The Perrys (Preston & Jackie Hill Perry)
Guest: Melissa Krueger
Date: June 1, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this engaging and honest episode, Preston and Jackie Perry sit down with author Melissa Krueger to explore the often-overlooked topic of covetousness—what it is, where it manifests, and its impact on our relationships, spirituality, and society. Drawing from Melissa’s book, The Envy of Eve, and their own experiences, the trio expose covetousness as a deeply pervasive heart issue, discuss how Scripture addresses it, and share practical tools for cultivating contentment in a culture of constant comparison.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Covetousness and Its Roots

[02:29–05:30]

• Melissa shares the personal origins of her book, The Envy of Eve, written after noticing patterns of discontentment despite having what she once desired.
• She highlights a pivotal biblical pattern: see, covet, take, hide, tracing it from Eve in Genesis, to Achan in Joshua, to David and Bathsheba, showing how covetousness is woven throughout Scripture.

Melissa Krueger [05:50]: “It’s the exact same pattern … She saw that it was desirable … she took and she ate it. And what did she do? She hid.”

2. Covetousness as a Distortion of Desire and Trust in God

[07:57–09:47]

• The conversation wrestles with why we desire what we shouldn't have, exposing the root as often a suspicion that God is withholding good.

Melissa Krueger [08:30]: “Is God keeping something good from you? … It’s not simply, oh, I have a desire… it’s normally not about my circumstances, but what I think about God.”

• The hosts connect covetousness with the core of other transgressive desires—be it sexual sin, greed, or jealousy.

3. Covetousness, Envy, and the Human Heart

[12:12–13:06]

• Melissa makes an important distinction: envy is a type of covetousness, but covetousness is the wider umbrella of “inordinate desires.”
• She distinguishes between desires that turn sour (wanting a good thing too much) and desires that are wrong from the start (wanting what isn’t ours).

4. Covetousness and Our Relationship with God

[15:27–17:33]

• The hosts probe the idea that covetousness is ultimately about unbelief—a failure to trust God's goodness.

Melissa Krueger [16:21]: “If you want a down payment on—Is God promising He’ll be good?—He’s given it to us…Every single thing in this world is a penny compared to the fact that Jesus Christ gave His life for me.”

5. Covetousness in Community—How It Robs Relationships

[19:36–23:01]

• Covetousness breaks and blocks connection: Focusing on what others have prevents true friendship and empathy.

Melissa Krueger [20:52]: “It’s a double-edged sword… It vertically makes us not trust the Lord. And horizontally we start looking at someone else as the sum of what they have.”

• We can’t “rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn” if our hearts are consumed with jealousy.

6. Recognizing and Addressing Idols

[24:02–25:56]

• Melissa details her own conviction about how everyday frustrations (wanting a washer/dryer) can reveal idols—sometimes even turning good things into ultimate things.
• She emphasizes self-examination and repentance as keys to freedom.

Melissa Krueger [24:48]: “I was really sour. I wasn’t joyful…my inner desire to live in a different place and to not be here is robbing me of what is here.”

7. Covetousness and the Love of Money

[26:11–33:51]

• The discussion explores Judas as a tragic biblical example, and how money feeds core idols of comfort, approval, control, and power (Tim Keller’s “Counterfeit Gods”).

Melissa Krueger [28:27]: “Money kind of can solve any of those [idols]… If you’re hungry for power, money’s gonna give you power. If you like comfort, money’s gonna give you comfort.”

• They highlight the soul-saving discipline of generosity and tithing as strategies to loosen money’s grip.

8. The Antidote: Biblical Contentment

[33:51–36:57]

• Drawing from Paul in Philippians 4, the crew underscores contentment as the ultimate weapon against covetousness—and also a learned behavior, not a natural instinct.

Melissa Krueger [34:28]: “Contentment is…the good fruit of fighting [covetousness]…it’s something I learn. And tomorrow my classroom may be different than today’s.”

9. Practical Tools for Combating Covetousness

[37:25–41:23]

• They discuss social media’s role in amplifying comparison and provide practical advice: turn your eyes from worthless things (cf. Psalm 119:37), abide in Christ, and root yourself in Scripture.

Melissa Krueger [39:15]: “Turn my eyes from worthless things and give me life in your ways.”

• The necessity of regular gratitude is emphasized multiple times.

Melissa Krueger [47:48]: “The act of giving thanks… turns our eyes onto what we’ve been given rather than what we’re missing.”

10. Covetousness, Thanksgiving, and the Power of Perspective

[48:29–54:30]

• Giving thanks reframes our perceptions, countering envy with appreciation and softening our hearts toward people and circumstances.

Host Mike Perry [51:24]: “When you start to try to train your heart to be thankful, you realize how everything is actually a grace.”

11. Coveting Seasons, Not Just Stuff

[54:34–59:15]

• They explore how it’s easy to covet not just possessions, but easier or past life seasons, and how God uses difficulty for growth.

Melissa Krueger [56:19]: “Covetousness is not just stuff. It could be seasons.”

• The prosperity gospel’s subtle, functional lure is exposed—not just about money, but about expecting ease in the Christian life.

12. Assignment, Contentment & God’s Providence

[59:15–End]

• The conversation ends by encouraging listeners (and themselves) to embrace their current season as God’s “assignment,” trusting His purpose and provision.

Host Mike Perry [60:21]: “That place is the assignment. … Us finding God in it is what He’s saying and calling us to do.”

---

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• Melissa Krueger [05:50]: “It says, she saw that it was desirable. That word is the same word ... kamad ... that is used to be translated covet.”
• Host Mike Perry [11:21]: “Even lesbianism is covetousness ... I’m pursuing something outside of God’s design for me.”
• Melissa Krueger [16:21]: “Every single thing in this world is a penny in comparison to the fact that Jesus Christ gave His life for me.”
• Melissa Krueger [20:52]: “If you set your desires ... on what belongs to your neighbor, you will never be able to love the person well ... you will think of them only in terms of what they possess instead of who they are.”
• Melissa Krueger [34:28]: “Contentment is the good fruit of fighting—you know, it’s something I learn.”
• Host Mike Perry [51:24]: “When you start to try to train your heart to be thankful, you realize how everything is actually a grace.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Melissa’s Story & the Pattern of Covetousness: 02:29–07:57
• Covetousness, God’s Character, and Unbelief: 07:57–11:21
• Covetousness, Envy, and Idolatry: 12:12–15:27
• Covetousness and Interpersonal Relationships: 19:36–23:22
• Tracing and Repenting of Idols: 24:02–25:56
• Money, Judas, and Idolatry: 26:11–33:51
• Contentment and Spiritual Growth: 33:51–36:57
• Battling Covetousness in the Age of Social Media: 37:45–41:23
• Thankfulness as a Weapon Against Envy: 47:48–54:30
• Coveting Seasons, Enduring Hardship, and God’s Assignment: 54:34–End

---

Practical Takeaways

• Recognize and Repent: Covetousness is often subtle—start by tracing your desires back to what you believe about God and honestly confessing them.
• Practice Gratitude: Deliberately give thanks, especially for small, “everyday” graces.
• Abide in Christ: True transformation comes from abiding—remaining—in Jesus, meditating on His Word, praying, and trusting the Spirit to shape desires.
• Guard Perspective: “Turn your eyes from worthless things”—limit comparison (especially online) and recalibrate often.
• Embrace Your Assignment: Trust that the particular “season” and circumstances you’re in are part of God’s loving providence and purpose for you.
• Loosen Your Grip: Generosity—freely giving of your resources—is a practical way to combat the idolatry of security and control.
• Reframe Trials as Growth: God uses hardship, not ease, to mature hearts and bring lasting contentment.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode digs into the heart of covetousness with both biblical depth and everyday relevance, reminding listeners that the antidote isn’t more striving, but a deeper resting in the sufficiency and kindness of God. Through transparency, humor, and Scripture, The Perrys and Melissa Krueger offer listeners hope, empathy, and practical tools for escaping the trap of endless comparison and learning true contentment.

---

Transcript

[Red Bull Summer All Day Play Announcer]

Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer. Capture your favorite summer feeling with Pandora Jewelry. Discover a collection inspired by the sunshine, freedom and moments that make the season unforgettable. From sun kissed metals to personalized pieces ready to be engraved with your summer mantra. Each design moves with you from beach days to golden nights and every memory in between. Shop Pandora Jewelry's new summer collection in store or [e-mail] and let your summer unfold.

[Host Mike Perry]

Hello. How are you?

[Co-host Preston Perry]

What's good with y'?

[Host Mike Perry]

All? Kind of just want to get started in the conversation.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

You're excited about this one, huh?

[Host Mike Perry]

I shouldn't be.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

You should be.

[Host Mike Perry]

Freedom.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Freedom.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Host Mike Perry]

Because we got Melissa Krueger with us again, y'.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

All.

[Host Mike Perry]

Y' all saw Melissa earlier a couple weeks ago when we sat down with her and Mike. Not Dr. Krueger, Mike Krueger. To talk about Disciple and our kids. But now we're talking to Melissa about something that people don't talk about enough. I've been telling Melissa that she need to rewrite. Not even rewrite. Do put some addendums on there or something like to just this book. Let me tell the story. Can I tell the story?

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Go ahead.

[Host Mike Perry]

Okay. About six months ago, there was like some stuff I was wrestling with, primarily jealousy. Anytime I'm wrestling with stuff, it's a weird thing. It's like I want to understand it so I can fight it better. So I just start looking at books about the subject. And so I started. I started reading about jealousy, which took me to this idea of contentment, which took me to this idea of covetousness. I said, huh, that's weird. I didn't even know there was a connection there. So I'm googling books about covetousness. I see this book called the Envy of Eve written by Melissa Crook. I said, melissa, you got a book about covetousness? I was just going have called you, girl. And I did call you.

[Melissa Krueger]

I know.

[Host Mike Perry]

So Melissa has a book that she wrote a long time ago that is so relevant.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

How long ago?

[Melissa Krueger]

It came out in 2012.

[Host Mike Perry]

You had baby.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's my baby book. It's my first book. Is it yes, the first book I wrote. And I was. Yes, I was writing it.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Melissa Krueger]

I was writing it around 2009, so

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I've been reading it all morning. I thought it was a new book.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah, it's relevant. It's called the Envy of Eve Finding.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's pre Instagram.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Was it?

[Host Mike Perry]

So you was on Twitter?

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, there was actually. I wasn't even on Twitter. I wrote a book before Twitter. I was on Twitter or Instagram.

[Host Mike Perry]

We need to read it.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

So you just promoted it by going to, like, Barnes and Nobles and stuff? Yeah, read my book.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, it was a different world.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

It was a different world.

[Host Mike Perry]

Why is your first book about covetousness? Of all the things to talk about, Melissa Krueger.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, that might get into personal places.

[Host Mike Perry]

Jackie, you don't have to be transparent, but you gotta be.

[Melissa Krueger]

No, that's it, you know.

[Host Mike Perry]

Cause that's diving off the deep end.

[Melissa Krueger]

It is. That's a good question. 1. I would say what I was seeing in Scripture was intersecting my life. So you have that moment when you're like, huh, I'm studying. I was actually studying the Book of Joshua, you know, completely not the book. You think, oh, this is a book on envy. I was studying that. But what I was realizing was I had finally, what I would say, gotten what I wanted. You know, you think, oh, yeah. You spend your life thinking, oh, yeah, I want to one day get married and one day have kids and, you know, one day have the house. And we had spent a lot of time moving. We had lived overseas, which at different points was really hard for me. And I had my first baby overseas. And I remember thinking, if I could just do this in America, it'd be a lot easier. You know, you're constantly comparing your situation with someone else's. Well, then finally, I was back in America. Mike had a job because at that time, when we. We had Emma, he was in school. So, you know, money was. Yeah. In Scotland, so money was really tight. All these things. I thought, once I get those things, my life will be fine. And then the Lord gave me those things. And then I realized I wanted more. And I realized I started having to deal with the fact that my discontentment was not about my circumstances, but it was about my heart. And what I was looking at in Joshua and seeing some connections with Eve, I started seeing this pattern in Scripture, and I really saw it as the pattern of the enemy. That played out in my life so much is that see, covet, take, hide. And I was just confronted with the circumstances of my Life and the scriptures in this beautiful way. And so I wanted to explore it more. And what I saw was, it wasn't just me. I could look around and say, wow, this comparison game is just robbing us all of joy.

[Host Mike Perry]

And so, wow, what did you discover about Eve? Or how did. Because, I mean, I think when people read Genesis 3, we easily identify deceit and pride. But I guess, what about that exchange with Satan and even how she viewed the tree showed you covetousness?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes, well, it was actually so when I was studying. Ach. So if you remember the story, they've just had the battle of Jericho. The walls come down, and they were told. The Israelites were told, when you go in, everything's dedicated to the Lord. Don't take anything. Well, then the next battle against AI, they go out and they, you know, they get defeated. And Joshua's like, what's happening? What's going on? And basically, the Lord's like, you've got somebody in the camp who has sinned. And they go tribe by tribe. And now we get there with Achan, and Achan confesses, and he says, when I saw basically the stuff, there was a robe, some gold, some silver. He goes, I coveted. I took them and I hid them. And there's actually a little note in my Bible that said, this is the same pattern in the garden. And I was like, huh, Is it? And so I looked it up, and I did a word study on the word covet. And it's the exact same Hebrew word. It says, she saw that it was desirable. That word is the same word. Word kamad. I'm probably saying that incorrectly, but that is used to be translated covet. So it's like she saw that it was covetable in some sense, and then she took and she ate it. And what did she do? She hid. You know, so it's the exact same pattern. And then once you see a pattern, you start seeing it everywhere, because then you've got David. So, and this is what's interesting. First garden. See, covet, take, hide. Then we're in the promised land. First victory. See, covet, take, hide. First king of all kings. I mean, he wasn't the first king. Saul was the first king, but David was the king after God's own heart. What did he do? Oh, he saw Bathsheba. He coveted. Cause lust is a form of coveting. He took. And what did he do? He hid what he had done.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah, he did.

[Melissa Krueger]

And so you start to see that pattern all over scripture, and you're like, maybe. Maybe this is A problem for me, too.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah. Another thing that you pointed out in your book as it relates to Genesis 3, is that Adam and Eve was provided with everything they needed. Like, he literally gave them all that they needed to flourish, gave them the garden, told them to tend over it, gave them two trees. Right. The knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. And what is it in us that makes us want things to covet things that. That's not ours? Like what? Like what is that? What do you think that is?

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, I think the first thing that happened in the garden is really informative for us because the first thing is basically Satan is coming to them. And when we hear the question he asked them, and the underlying assumption is, is God really good? Isn't he keeping something from you? Cause you know, if you could eat of it, you know, you'd be like God knowing good and evil. And so I think there's this question that comes to all of us. Is God keeping something good from you? And I think that's at the heart of my coveting is it's not simply, oh, I have a desire. Because here's the reality for all of us, which was not true of Adam and Eve. We all live on the other side of the fall. So I always wanna say having desires isn't wrong. There are really good desires we can have. It's when it turns covetous, it's normally actually not about my circumstances and about actually what I think about God. And it gets into two ways. Are you good and are you able to make a difference? And in some ways, that's exactly what Satan was saying, because it was kind of like, surely you won't die.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, God's not really gonna care about this. You know, I know he said he was, but he's really probably not gonna. Who cares? And that's, I think, how he tempts us. Like, God doesn't care about your little inner desires.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was sharing with Preston earlier how. Cause covetous is the last command.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Host Mike Perry]

And how I was listening to this podcast, I always mentioned Tim Keller. Cause I listen to Tim all the time. But a sermon about contentment, and he talks about covetousness and how it's kind of bracketing the command to love the Lord, not make idols and stuff like that. And then it's ending with covetousness. And how it's like when you covet, you break the first command, which inevitably causes you to break all of them. And I think knowing that, you realize how covetousness influences so many of the sinful decisions that we make. You know what I'm saying? Because I think. We think, oh, yeah, I. I'm lustful, as you say. But you don't realize that that lust is being produced by covetousness. I remember telling you, I was like. When I started to think through all the ways covetousness manifested in my life, I was like, even lesbianism is covetousness. I'm. I'm. I'm pursuing something outside of God's design for me. I'm trying to grab at something that I'm actually not supposed to have. I would dare argue that transgenderism is a form of covetousness where I. You are in a male body or a female body grabbing at a. That does not belong to you.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

And not only that, lust. I mean, I think a lot of men. I've said this before on podcasts, but a lot of men watch porn vicariously living through men who are not being rejected. And so it's not just the mere lust, but it's also this idea of not being, like, being the man, being wanted, being desired, especially if you feel rejected in your marriage sexually. And so it covers so much.

[Melissa Krueger]

And covetousness is kind of that umbrella, right? So you've got types, you know, you've got lust, which is normally sexual in nature, but you've also got greed. We see the world, right? I mean, it's all, you know, I mean, I think. Was it Emerson who said, how much is enough? He's like, well, just a little bit more. I'm not sure who said it, but, you know, and then you've got envy, which is a little bit like your neighbor, you know.

[Host Mike Perry]

So is covetousness different than envy?

[Melissa Krueger]

I think envy is a type of covetousness. So I call covetousness the big name for all types of what they would say would be, like, inordinate desires. Like desires, I just like to say, like desires that have soured. You know, desires that just. Either. And I think you bring up a good point. Either they're on. We can have a desire for a good thing that turns sour, or we can have a desire for something that's clearly outside of what scripture says. So, for instance, like, if I have a desire for a husband, that's a good thing, but we've all seen that desire turn sour in people. But now if I have a desire for your husband, that's a bad thing altogether. So the desire in itself is bad. And so that's where, you know, we've got to. It's helpful to understand there are two different ways we can kind of go off the rails.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Host Mike Perry]

Marriage is a beautiful thing. It's a covenant that God himself created. A covenant that we are called to honor and uplift and esteem and value. But it's also difficult. Sorry, I got caught in my throat because I was talking about the difficulty of being married to a sinner. And that's why we need help. Whatever season your marriage is in, whether you need rescue or renewal, a weekend of intentional time together can be the turning point that changes everything. Weekend to Remember has helped millions of couples over the last 40 years with 80 plus events across the country. So there's likely one near you.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

My personal experience with Weekend to Remember was a lovely one. I think seeing the intentionality that they put in all of the activities, allowing married couples to connect, I thought was really dope. Not only that, we know some of the speakers and so being able to, you know, fellowship with them over the weekend was really good. And just seeing that God has really put it on the heart of people in the body of Christ who really care about marriage and support into marriages around the country was a really dope thing to see. So I definitely will be returning to Weekend to Remember because I think it's beneficial and vital to every, every marriage.

[Host Mike Perry]

Learn practical biblical tools for communication, conflict and connection and come home closer than when you left. Register now with Code Perry to save $100 on any getaway at weekendtoremember.com that's weekendtoremember.com Code Perry. I wanna connect this to God again. Cause it's connected to him. Because the root of covetousness even as you communicate in the book is unbelief. And I think somet there's a lack of awareness of how our desires are influenced by our frameworks. And so I guess I want to flesh out more what like the consequence of just not trusting him is and you know what I'm saying, and helping people think through if I'm greedy or naturally. Even when you were in Scotland, you alone, you want your friends, you said you wanted a washer and dryer, like all of that. You wouldn't think that just wanting the washer and dryer is a manifest that's of unbelief. Somebody would say that's dramatic.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Host Mike Perry]

You understand what I'm saying? So like talk about the unbelief part of all of that.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes. And that's where there are days I held that desire rightly and I could say, lord, this is your will for me. You should have to walk down five flights of stairs to do my laundry. I'm gonna trust you with it. But then, you know, it can turn sour, you know. And we know that in our own hearts. When I'm grumbling and complaining, look at the Israelites. They always got in. Cause they grumbled and complained about God's provision. Because basically, at some level, my unbelief is saying, God, you haven't been good enough to me. And so I think it's this battle in our souls. And here's the saddest thing to me, if we want a down payment on. Is God promising he'll be good for us. He's given it to us. And Romans tells us this. He says, basically, this God, if you wanna know for sure if he loves you, he says, well, actually, I came into this world, I became a man, and I suffered and died a terrible death on the cross so that I might be with you. And then he's like, can you trust me with everything else? And I'm basically saying, well, yeah, I know you came and you died for me, but you did that for her too, and you gave her the minivan I want. What that is saying is I knew nothing of what was done for me. It's kind of like this. The example I like to give is if I gave you $100 million and you $100 million, and then I gave Jackie a penny and you were like, I can't believe you're not good to me. I gave you both $100 million because then you understand what that gift was. So, you know, the every single thing in this world is a penny in comparison to the fact that Jesus Christ gave his life for me. I mean, I have eternity. And so it's my unbelief in that home that makes me try to make this world my home.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

That's really good.

[Host Mike Perry]

Do you think you know how Romans 1, it says, where is it at? I can't find it. But where they thought themselves wise. Do you think there's a part of us where we think ourselves wiser than God? It kind of has this sense of like, we are low key. Not like obviously, but like we're low key accusing God of some type of injustice.

[Melissa Krueger]

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I realized actually, Mike, he has this example that he put on a board. And it wasn't about this topic, but he drew a big circle on this whiteboard. And he was like, if we were to greatly limit God. And we said, this is everything God knows about everything. And that's obviously limiting because we know he's infinite, all knowing. But if we said. And then if we were to overestimate ourselves and put a little small dot on that big circle, that's how much we know about the universe. And here I am, the dot saying to the master of the universe, I really know better how my life should run. And think about how terrifying it would actually be if we were in charge of our lives. It would be like giving full reign to a toddler in the house.

[Host Mike Perry]

Horrific.

[Melissa Krueger]

And we all look at the toddler, we know when to say no, and we know when it's not better. And I think it's really hard for us. That's where the unbelief comes in. I can't believe that this might be for my best good. But he promises that actually everything he's doing, he is working for good. It doesn't mean everything's good. I always wanna stre we can mourn. That's why there are psalms of lament. I mean, you know, I talk about crying all the time. I mean, there's a right thing to mourn, but I think it's a really different thing to complain to God than to complain about God. So that's where I think the difference. The heart of the difference.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

One thing I love about the book is I think you do a really good job of explaining how the Enemy wants us to covet things. Not to just question the character of God, but also to rob us of relationships. And one quote that you said in the book that I read about.

[Host Mike Perry]

I want y' all to keep talking, but because this is our podcast, I feel like I have the right to interrupt and let y' all keep talking. Cause it's getting hot and I just want to turn the air up. Go ahead.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

All right. You said, if you set your desires or your affections or what belongs to your neighbor, you will never be able to love the person. Well, you will think of them only in terms of what they possess instead of who they are. I was like, oof. And I've had, you know, very heartbreaking friendships that kind of ended, you know, of people who I felt like, it's weird. Like, I feel this weirdness between us. And I know you like me, but I feel like at times they wasn't able to love me because they looked at what I have. Just explain how that go deeper in how the Enemy wants us to cover things, to ruin the relationships in our lives. And what does that practically look like? And how to avoid it, yeah, it's

[Melissa Krueger]

a double edged sword, this sin, because it vertically makes us not trust the Lord. And then horizontally we start looking at someone else as the sum of what they have. So let's say, you know, I mean, in my case I could say, okay, let's say I'm a woman and I desperately want a husband. Well, you have one. And now you can't get how hard my life is. So there's, you know, and when you have a struggle, I'm kind of like, well, yeah, but you have a husband to help you out. Totally missing that actually. Sometimes your husband might be the cause of your struggles. Never. I'm sure that never is the case.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

No, it is.

[Melissa Krueger]

But we miss each other, right? I can't listen to your story because I'm so obsessed with what's lacking in my own story that I miss you because it's just complete self focused. Like, you know, you have the one thing I want, so therefore you must have no problems because I've made it an idol. So therefore that's the one thing I would trust for my security, my safety, whereas that should all be on the Lord. And then if we both have the Lord, I can love you even when you have the thing I very much desire. Because I know we both have the better thing.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah, it robs us of like real true connection. Because I think what you're essentially saying is when we covet after other people's possessions or things, we never really see them. That's right, we never see them. And so you, because you don't see them, you never really connect. And I think I've been guilty of that, you know, in the past. I think we've all kind of been guilty of that. Cause I think it's hard not to like see somebody else and not compare yourself at times with other human beings.

[Melissa Krueger]

And I think the verse that really struck me about that is rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn. And what I find when I'm coveting in some way, I really find it hard to rejoice. Oh, she got one more good thing. Okay. Or I find it really hard to mourn. I'm like, yeah, they're talking about something that's really hard in their life. And you're like, it's not that hard.

[Host Mike Perry]

I mean, that's her problem.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, I judge them on both counts rather than say, hey, maybe what she's going through wouldn't be hard for me. But that's exactly what the Lord's Using in her life to make her more like Jesus. So can I mourn with her? What's hard in her life? And it just blocks that.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Host Mike Perry]

You said something that I think is actually a helpful tool when it comes to us searching our hearts is how where there is some degree of jealousy or envy or covetousness, I think we can trace it to some kind of idol. And I guess for you, I'm gonna keep using Scotland as an example. You wanting an easier way of washing clothes on the surface is not a problematic idea. But how did you identify what the idol was? And how did you exchange the idol for faith?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, well, it hit me like a ton of bricks one day. I was actually. Maybe I was reading the Bible throughout a year or doing something like that. And I came to this verse. Do not be like the horse or mule who have to be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you. So I was kind of. I was pretty prideful. You know, I had come to Scotland to support my husband as he was getting his PhD. So I was being the good Christian woman who had done the right thing. So I had every right to be angry and mad when it was hard, you know, in some ways. And to be quite honest, the person I took it out on most was Mike. And so, you know, I'm sorry, Mike,

[Host Mike Perry]

you made it through.

[Melissa Krueger]

And what causes fights and quarrels among you, James? Is it not your desires which battle in you? And I remember just feeling. Just hit. It was like the spirit took that verse and just automatically applied it to my life of. Yeah, you've come, you've obeyed, but you're like the horse or the mule who's being controlled by bit and bridle. And so you're angry and you're chomping at the bit, so to speak. And so what I really saw was I was really sour. I wasn't joyful in what I was doing. And the Lord had to really confront me with, hey, your inner desire to live in a different place and to not be here is robbing you of what is here. So I was missing this amazing experience. Cause I was just like, I don't have a car. I gotta walk everywhere. I mean, you can either grumble about things or you can look around and be like, wow, I get to spend a couple years in this amazing city. And I was definitely choosing the latter. And it made me miserable. And I'm sure my husband was probably pretty miserable. It was not fun. Yeah.

[Host Mike Perry]

He said, I'm gonna just Keep working on this paper.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Host Mike Perry]

Why are you doing all of that over there?

[Melissa Krueger]

That's good. It gave him a lot of time on his research things.

[Host Mike Perry]

Easier.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Do you hear that? Sounds like breakfast is ready. Because Quaker's coming in hot with morning nutrition. 100% whole grain o notes and a good source of fiber to fuel the rhythm of your morning and kick start your day. And that sounds absolutely delicious. Fuel to start whatever's next. Quaker, official sponsor of FIFA World Cup 26. I think the thing that we can covet. Well, not, I want to say the most, but I think one of the most common things is possessions, particularly money. The Bible says the love of money is the root of all evil. And that's the reason why I love. Like in chapter four of your book, you talked about Judas a lot. And you. You made me look at Judas in ways that I never really looked at before. And I've read, like, stories like when he was in Bethany or whatever. And, you know, Jesus, after, you know, Mary anoints his body with oil. Judas gets mad because he's like, you could have gave this to the poor and yada yada. He's like, nah, you really just mad because you love money more than you love thief. You a thief. You know, And I started to think about that, you know, and when I think about Judas, I love the show the Chosen, because I love how they kind of. Kind of give color to, like, what they probably was going through. Because I think a lot of times we find love and money because we don't trust that God will provide or we want to just security. It's something that we are not trusting the Lord for. That makes us kind of fall in love with money or whatever. So I think I want you to talk about the dangers of falling in love with money and the temptation to trust in our resources and covet our resources over the Lord.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's great. I think it was Keller. He had four kind of root idols that he often talked about. Comfort, approval, power. I'm always gonna forget the other one.

[Host Mike Perry]

Oh, no, this isn't. Counterfeit gods.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes, counterfeit gods. And here's the thing. In those four, Power, power, control, approval, comfort. Okay, those four.

[Host Mike Perry]

I know those four.

[Melissa Krueger]

And in those four, I know. Cause I always laugh. I'm like, well, between Mike and I, we have all four of them covered. That people tend to go toward one. And here's the thing. Money kind of can solve any of those. If you're hungry for power, money's gonna give you power.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

If you like comfort Money's gonna give you comfort. If you like approval. Guess what? Everybody always likes the person with money.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I don't remember what it says. I think in the Bible it says money answers all things. Somewhere in the scriptures, I forget where.

[Host Mike Perry]

Does sound like a proverb probably.

[Melissa Krueger]

Proverb, yeah. And so the reality is a lot of our idols, the root idols, which we all have. So I might want it for a different reason than you want it, but we see it as the solution to whatever problem we may have. So it just becomes, you know, it's fascinating.

[Host Mike Perry]

Right?

[Melissa Krueger]

There are coins saying God, we tr. When we, as a people in money, we trust. Like I find, I mean, it's so easy to be like, oh, I'm okay, we have a 401k.

[Host Mike Perry]

Oh yeah. You feel secure?

[Melissa Krueger]

I'm okay. We have, you know, all the, you know, our house is secure, whatever. It's so easy just by being responsible, to start slowly trusting in it. And I think that's what makes it so dangerous because it's just so easy to be like, I'm safe, not because the Lord's gonna take care of me, but because I've got enough room, resources.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah, I think what's, what's, what's really good is when you was talking about Judas in the book, you talking about how the scripture says he, he's a son of destruction, like, you know, and all the things. And you said that, you know, Judas love of money didn't prevent him. No, no. Didn't. Didn't make him stop believing in God. It prevented him from seeing God as savior in the first place. And how like our, our love, how we covered money, it can literally make us miss the Lord and not see him for who he truly is. And I was just like, wow, that's

[Host Mike Perry]

really, really deep to me this weekend. I was, I think last weekend I was watching, I just been re. Watching documentaries. I need to send you some of them.

[Melissa Krueger]

I was gonna ask, I was like, any good ones?

[Host Mike Perry]

I think you've seen this one. It's about Madoff. Have you seen that one on Netflix?

[Melissa Krueger]

I don't know if I've seen that one.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah, I watch it. Okay, so there's a documentary on Bernie Madoff. Bernie Madoff was. I did, I did see this. I know you did. Because me and, me and Melissa will talk about documentaries and we've always watched all of them already. Bernie Madoff was like a so called Wall street investor. And he basically ended up being exposed as running one of the largest or the largest Ponzi scheme in History where he accumulated or like basically stole in essence, $69 billion. It was insane.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, ruined people's lives completely, like,

[Host Mike Perry]

because people would enjoy invest their money with Madoff and he was promising these super unrealistic, but high returns.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I remember you telling me about that.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah. And so when he got exposed, they realized because it was a Ponzi scheme, he would take money from Melissa and give that money to Preston. So there actually wasn't any investments. So you got people that put 100,000 people, that put 500,000 people that put their retirement, people that put their kids education, so that when he went to jail, that money is gone. And what was fascinating to me is that there were a lot of red flags. Flags. And I kept thinking about, why did people ignore the red flags? And it's because of the returns. You're getting such high returns back, you're getting all of this money back that you start to ignore the red flags because of what it's doing to your pockets. And I was just thinking about how greed and for many, it wasn't even greed, it was security, how it kind of messes with our vision a little bit. And I was just like, lord, so much of this is just idolatry being made manifest in particular ways. Security agree has. And that's not everybody. I ain't saying they ain't pray about it and all this stuff, but I am saying that there was a culture of idolatry that led to that type of dynamic. And so I just think. I don't know, I just added that. Cause I just watched it well.

[Melissa Krueger]

And I think it's one of the reasons the Lord invites us to give generously. And some people really would say to tithe regularly or whatever. I realize it's a check on my heart.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah, it is.

[Melissa Krueger]

You know, it's actually good for my soul. And we know that all of the Lord's commands are good for me to do.

[Host Mike Perry]

That's good.

[Melissa Krueger]

And so that act of giving is actually him loosening my grip on what I'm trusting in. We tend to think, oh, how lucky they are I gave. It's actually, no, no, I'm protecting you by asking you to be a generous giver. It's a good discipline for my heart. Because sometimes, I mean, we'll be down at the beach and I'm looking around and I'm like, who has all the money for this stuff? Because I'm like, how could all these people have boats and houses and all of this stuff? And Mike sometimes will be like, well, just think about 10% of all of your earnings. And that's a lot of money. And I'm like, okay, how much better? The Lord invites us to an eternal investment that will never spoil, that will never fade. And we have to keep that at the front of our mind. Like, being generous in our giving is for our soul not to get too focused on this world.

[Host Mike Perry]

That's good. Philippians 4. Paul says, not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound in any and every circumstance. I've learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance in need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me. Would you say that that contentment is really what cuts at the heart of covetousness, is if we learn contentment, then we actually will learn how to resist all forms of covetousness.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's the good fruit of fighting, you know?

[Host Mike Perry]

Say it again.

[Melissa Krueger]

You know, it's. And this is what I think. Everybody takes that verse and they're like, I ran a marathon. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And Paul's writing that about contentment. That's the highest mountain. I mean, you know, back in the day, in the 1600, I mean, the Puritans were always writing about contentment because it was the picture of the Christian life. Psalm 1 is basically this image of this tree planted by a stream. Whatever he does prospers. And who is that man? Oh, he's the man who delights in the law of the Lord. And on it, he meditates day and night, you know, and that picture of just abundance. And our problem is in our flesh, we chase abundance in the stuff. And he's saying, oh, no, no. The abundance is actually having the inner strength so that circumstantially you can have plenty or nothing, and yet you're abounding. That's strength. And then Paul admits, and it's strength he doesn't have. Yeah, it's. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So that's that stream from which we're drawing from is Christ. But I love that Paul says he learned it. It didn't descend upon him. You know, I think. We think, oh, does this mean as soon as I become a Christian, I'm gonna be immediately content and never struggle? No, it's something I learn. And tomorrow my classroom may be different than today's classroom, and that whatever our classroom is, is our life circumstances and the lor. Hey, I'm giving you these circumstances today, and I'm going to prove my strength to you in them. And sometimes it means we have to be completely out of our own before we see that.

[Host Mike Perry]

And what's encouraging about that even is considering that Paul names covetousness as the sin that the law revealed in him that showed him that he actually wasn't righteous. And so for covetousness to be the thing he struggled with and for contentment to be the thing that he eventually learned means that none of us are actually without help and growth. You know what I'm saying? Like, that the Lord is kind like that the Lord can actually bring us out and bring us to a place of a sufficiency in him that is altogether strange, you know?

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah. One thing that I also also hear saying a lot, especially even when you gave the analogy about the husband, is a lot of things that we covet. We really just want security. We. We want safety. We want. But I think the enemy does. He perverts natural desire, like God given desires, and makes us kind of, you know, like. But what are some practical tools that we can use to believe and to know that God is actually better?

[Host Mike Perry]

Right?

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Because I think a lot of times it's hard to not meditate on what you don't have to believe that God is withholding something from you. And so for the person saying, man, I hear what y' all saying, but like, how. How can I. What are some practical tools to remind me that when I'm struggling that God is actually better?

[Host Mike Perry]

And.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, and I feel like our world got a lot bigger. Meaning. You used to look at your neighbor, neighbor's fence, like, the grass is greener. Well, now our neighbors are like 3,000 people on Instagram, right? It just got. We can see, oh, look at her house.

[Host Mike Perry]

That's true.

[Melissa Krueger]

Oh, look at her yard. Oh, you know, we have a much bigger garden.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

That's what Jackie was saying earlier when we was getting ready. She was like, yeah, Instagram, to make it better. Like, Instagram, skinny people making people who have bigger weight, like, want to be small. And you, you said something along on that.

[Host Mike Perry]

I said, you got, you know, skinny people that want to be like, you got vain people, you got skinny people, you got voluptuous people, you got rich people, you got families, you got singles. Like, you got the married people covered in the single life. You got the single people covered in the married life. You got. It's. But it's all. It's. It really is a replication of of Genesis 3 is our eyes are seeing these things that are, like, really doing something to our eyes.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

And it's harder in this generation because everything that we don't have is so ever before us.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

It's just like, it seems possible. Yes, yes. It seems obtainable.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

And you get irritated when you actually don't.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes. I mean, obtain it, because we actually have more than most generations available. Like, we can go turn on a faucet and get water. I'm not walking a mile.

[Host Mike Perry]

That's true.

[Melissa Krueger]

To a creek or to a well to get. I mean, we have things fairly easy, but. So there's a verse that says, turn my eyes from worthless things and give me life in your ways. And I do think there has to be this turning our eyes. And the Lord promises his power will be in us. He says, you know, his divine power is. Oh, it's Peter.

[Host Mike Perry]

Granted to us all things we need

[Melissa Krueger]

for life and godliness. And it says, we'll put that passage in the show. So his power is available. But I like to describe it like our cell phones. That little thing is powerful, but if it is not plugged in, it does not work. It just becomes a little box that just sits there and can't do anything. And so the creator of our phone created a means by which it receives power. And so the power, for us as Christians, the Lord tells us, you know, hey, you have to abide in me. I mean, Jesus, right before he's getting ready to go to the cross and die, the last words he gives his disciples are, abide in me and my words abide in you, and you will bear much fruit. And then at the end of that passage, he says again, he's getting ready to go to the cross. I've told you these things so that my joy may be in you and my joy may be full. Jesus is getting ready to go suffer and die. And he cares about their joy. And he says, the way you do it is you have to abide in me and my words abide in you. And he says, apart from me, you can do nothing. You're like a dry, withered branch that can do nothing. And so I think so often what we'd spend our time on is chasing the thing we want.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Melissa Krueger]

Rather than chasing the contentment we want, which would actually happen by planting ourselves in the word, Spending time with the Lord, you know, it's kind of the answer no one wants to hear. But that's the means by which he says, my power's gonna be, you know, Unleashed in your life is to abide in me. That's where you get the nourishment.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah, because the crazy thing is, you know, a lot of times a friend was just telling me that I have a friend who he's friends with a lot of rich people, and he was saying they're some of the most unhappiest people ever. And I think a lot of times we think if we obtain possessions, we obtain wealth, we'll be happy. But really our souls are just going to continue to search and search and search, because what we're really searching for is God. I think that's what the gospel tells us. And so we're just searching for all of these things. We're never going to be fulfilled. And I think that's when people hit the hopelessness role. It's like I've been searching and I'm still not satisfied. Because you were created for a person, you were created for God. And I think when we covet things, it just robs us of what we were really created for. These things are beautiful, but they're just add ons.

[Melissa Krueger]

I think that's such a good point, though. It's when someone finally gets to the pinnacle, they often crash and burn.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, just the most famous people, you think you finally got all the hits, you finally got all the money you want, and then something. It's not like they're sitting around saying, oh, this is the good life. It's great. Then they turn to drugs or they turn to alcohol. You know, they often go down a path because it still isn't soul satisfying.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

It's fascinating to me that when I read that more millionaires and more millionaires commit suicide than poor people, it's people who chase. And I'm not saying every person that's a millionaire chase money, but I'm just saying, like, a lot of people chase things feeling like like they're gonna be happy. And then when they get there, and even with the transgender thing, I think a lot of times, you know, people, they covet wanting to be a man or wanting to be a woman, and then when they actually get it, they're still not satisfied because you're actually not finding the one you were created for.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's right.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah. It's a lot. Like, I talk about this often, but probably because it's been ministered to me, It's a lot like Hannah in First Samuel, you know, like, she is really grieved and sad and vexed because she doesn't have a child. And I'm not saying she coveted a child. I'm not saying that at all. But what I am saying is that for her to go into that temple, petition the Lord for the child, and then immediately make a vow to give that child back, has to communicate that she is satisfied in the Lord in such a way that she is willing to give away what she always wanted. And I think that is ultimately what even the exposure of covetousness should produce in us is a dependence and an intimacy and a trust in God's sufficiency that allows us to hold all the good gifts really loosely. And I think in my own life, I think the frustration is that you. I think sometimes I would rather be able to take a scalpel, go in here and just cut that thing out. You know what I'm saying? Like, because we're talking about desires.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Host Mike Perry]

We're talking about feelings. Like, I can go work out and get some muscle. I can, you know, know, wash my car to make it feel a little more important. I can do certain. But I can't change my heart. And so it puts us in this position where the mountain will only be moved if God strengthens us to move it, which circles back to your point, which is abiding, feels like an unpractical practice, but is actually the only way to change. It's the only way to change.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I got a question for both of y'.

[Host Mike Perry]

All.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

When it comes to challenging our hearts, right, to not covet out the things, not just possessions, but relationships, whatever, how much of it is our perspective and how we see things? Because I think. Because I do think that at the root of our faith problem, it's a psych problem. We don't have faith because we don't see. And it's not that we don't necessarily see. We just don't see properly. And so, like, how much of it is like is. And I know God changes our perspective, but I think it can also be very practical as well. And so what are some tools and some muscles that we can kind of build up to help change our perspectives, to help us see? Does that make sense, what I'm saying?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes, because I mean, the invitation, you know, when you go back to Isaiah 50, he says, come, come to the waters, you who have no money. But then the question is, why are you spending your money on what is not bread and your life on what will not satisfy? And so there's this perception problem. You think you're gonna eat that, and it's bread, and it's not actually gonna fulfill you. That's really good, you know, And I think one of the biggest ways is the act of thanksgiving, you know, um, pray without. See. What's the verse?

[Host Mike Perry]

Some prayer and supplication with thanksgiving.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's first Thessalonians.

[Host Mike Perry]

Oh, I don't know that.

[Melissa Krueger]

Be.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Be thankful.

[Melissa Krueger]

Rejoice always. That's it. Rejoice always. Rejoice always.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Again, I say rejoice, and I don't know.

[Melissa Krueger]

Rejoice always.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I don't know what you.

[Melissa Krueger]

My brain sounds.

[Host Mike Perry]

Philippians 4, we go to it.

[Melissa Krueger]

Rejoice always.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

But everything should be received with thanksgiving. If it's done with prayer, y' all are just.

[Melissa Krueger]

Rejoice always. Pray. No, no. Give thanks in all circumstances, for this is Christ's will for you.

[Host Mike Perry]

And we need to do.

[Melissa Krueger]

What's that sword drill?

[Host Mike Perry]

I don't know.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I don't know what scripture she's referring to.

[Host Mike Perry]

Rejoice in the Lord always. Again, I would say rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving. Let see.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's how bad I butchered it. I think it's first Thessalonians 5.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

It is first Thessalonians 5.

[Host Mike Perry]

That's how bad this is. Like, what's that game they used to play in? I never played it. What the young people say, like, they do the, like, Bible trivia.

[Melissa Krueger]

And I'm.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I'm going to read it. It's First Thessalonians.

[Host Mike Perry]

And keep this in. I want people to see us searching God's word.

[Melissa Krueger]

Oh, goodness.

[Host Mike Perry]

18.

[Melissa Krueger]

We gotta look better than this.

[Host Mike Perry]

I know that it ain't.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

It says, give thanks for all circumstances, for this is the will of God in Christ, in you, in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the spirit. Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything. Hold fast to what is good.

[Host Mike Perry]

Just let that be. It just.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

That's.

[Melissa Krueger]

But giving thanks.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

It's somewhere in the Bible.

[Melissa Krueger]

Giving in the scriptures, Circumstances. Yes. Because it's his will for us. You know, like that. Like to. Actually, I do think the act of giving thanks and choosing it turns our eyes onto what we've been given rather than what. What we're missing. And, you know, to say, lord, even as I wait on this thing, I thank you for. You know, that I have food today to eat. I thank you that I have these kids who I might need a break from. But I thank you for them, you know, and to. To. To really spend time. Because what it does. It then is reminding me of what I do have.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

And I think what coveting does is it blinds us to what we have and it makes us hyper focused on what we don't have have.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

And I want to say this too. I honestly, because I've thought about this in my own life, my fathering, marriage and everything, because I've always talked, I talk to people like my dad. I think it, it, I think it blinds us with what we do have and it makes us focus on what other people have. But I think a tactic from the enemy is to shame us in the future.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Of what we missed out on. Because my dad used to always say so. Me and my dad had a hard relationship. And when I got connected back with my dad, my dad, he just wanted to live his life. He was like, you know, I love my kids, but I want to do this, I want to do that. And as we got older, he really wanted that relationship with me that he didn't cultivate, that he didn't foster. And I think my rejection of him was shame for what he neglected. And I think, you know, all of the people that he chased, you know, all the relationships that he chased, all of the, like the life that he kind of coveted, like, it, it didn't really give him anything in return and the life that he wanted now as a, as an older man, he just didn't have it because he didn't, he didn't put it where it needed to be. And I think that brought my dad a lot of shame to say, man. It reminded him of all the things that he neglected when he was younger. And I think the enemy wants us to be shame, shamed, you know, and it's, it's not, it's not going to be rewarding in the future if we covet certain things in the. And so I think just remembering that, yeah, that's good.

[Melissa Krueger]

And it just shows. It's Satan's tool to destroy us.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's not. You know, he wants to steal, kill, and destroy the Christian. He's not playing nice.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah, that's right.

[Melissa Krueger]

And so you think, oh, so he's gonna get me trapped in a big sin. Well, how does he do that? It starts with coveting. It starts with an inner desire that then takes life.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah, that's good. I started thinking way more about thankfulness a couple months ago, and I was just listening to some Ann Foskamp content. What's the name of her book?

[Melissa Krueger]

A Thousand, A Thousand Gifts. It's good.

[Host Mike Perry]

And one thing I realized is that when you start to try to train your heart to be thankful, you realize how everything is actually a grace. Because things, it's. It's like you start to see all the miracles. And it's a grace because you realize you don't actually deserve it. Thank you Lord for this bed. I was a sinner. I don't. I don't deserve a comfortable rest. Or thank you, God that I got to work and my car didn't crash because people's cars are crashing all the time. Like there's actually so many things. And I think that's the thing about what happened in the garden is that God was so profoundly generous. Them being distracted by this one tree that they could not have actually kept them from seeing all the things that they should be thankful for. And I think the same thing is happening today where you don't realize that that conversation you had, like when you laughed, that was a grace. You know what I'm saying? Like the Lord just. The Lord created this weird noise that comes out of your body so that you can have joy. So when you scrolled up and you had a laugh, that was a grace. Thank you. You know what I'm saying? Like, you like, you become a little more creative even in a things that you could be thankful for all by practicing thankfulness. So I don't know, that's just been a really interesting thing for me to discover.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

For me, it's just pausing and just like. Cuz sometimes my kids can get on my nerve. Oh yeah, they can really get on my nerve. And then just. And like y' all are in it.

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, y' all are in it.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah. And just like, you know, and like. And like just really pausing, meditating on the goodness of them. And. And God's blessing me with my children. And then. And it's like, not only do I feel thankful, but then you start to realize, oh, I actually enjoy you like I enjoy my children when I'm just so not wrapped up in the inconvenience. The inconvenience. And everything that I'm coveting, right? Like, it's just little things I found myself doing that it's just like, okay, yeah, I hate going to bed at night. Cause I'm a night owl. But I'm like, I love the way my wife smells. I'm like, lord, thank you. Like, so she.

[Host Mike Perry]

I told you something about the kids.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

That's what I'm saying. I'm just, I'm just thinking about everything. Like she'll tell you This. I have. I have this thing with, like, smells right? And like, I just. I be. Sometimes I get into bed at night and I'll be like, I love the way our bed smells. Cause she just smells so good.

[Host Mike Perry]

Praise God. Thank Lord. One thing I'm never gonna be is stinky. She smells so good.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

It's just like, babe, this is a gift.

[Host Mike Perry]

I love that it's a gift. I love that you love that it makes me sleep. Praise God.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I tell a woman at a hotel I can't sleep. Cause I can't smell her.

[Host Mike Perry]

Oh, should I get your kerchief with my scents on it or something?

[Melissa Krueger]

I know you could just. You could get. Send them with a pillowcase.

[Host Mike Perry]

Apparently, it's a bunch of different Louis Vuittons. Okay.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I get excited when you take showers,

[Melissa Krueger]

but sometimes taking the time to be thankful.

[Host Mike Perry]

Thank you, Marie.

[Melissa Krueger]

For something small like that reminds you of how much you love the person. Whereas I'm sure as you go through the day, sometimes it's easier to think of the things that are. Are annoying you. Like, we are, like, in our spot. Oh, you know, that got left. Like, I am a constant cabinet opener. Like, I leave them open and my poor husband has to come behind me and shut all the cabinets.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

It's the reverse with us.

[Melissa Krueger]

Okay. You know, and so, you know, you could sit there and be like, if this person wasn't in my house, my house would stay cleaner all the time. Or whatever. You know, I mean, it's easy to complain.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

And so rather than to remember and be thankful.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

That's amazing.

[Host Mike Perry]

Yeah. What just came to my mind is most likely more for me than anybody else. I got you. It's when Peter. It might be second Peter when he tells us to rejoice when we are faced with trials. I cannot find it. Yes. In this, you rejoice, though now for a little while if necessary. You have been grieved by various trials so that the tested genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. I'm just saying this out loud. I. I think there can be. For me, in this season, there's been a covetousness of ease, of just wanting a break from trials, from the Lord's discipline, from the pruning is just like.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Host Mike Perry]

I just remember a time in my life where it just. Christianity wasn't as hard. And it's like, I get it. You want me to mature, but can we chill for a second, you know what I'm saying? But I think it makes sense why Peter is saying that you can rejoice. Because what is actually happening is that God is purifying you and changing you. And ain't that what you always ask for? God make me like you, God, I want to know you, God, I want to see you, God, I want to honor you. And he's answering your prayer, just not in a way that you would have preferred or expected. But I think having our minds on what God is doing in the lack and what God is doing in the discipline and what God is doing in the trials actually allows us to praise him and rejoice in it. I'm more so talking to me than I am to anybody else. I just had to say that out loud.

[Melissa Krueger]

So.

[Host Mike Perry]

Cuz covetousness is not just stuff. It could be seasons.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

And that the season y' all are in with young kids, I mean, I just remember. I remember deeply desiring just to go to the bathroom by myself and just shut the door and just have a moment of quiet. Like it's so hard. When you were reading that verse, I was reminded of the verse. It's like you will have much need of endurance. And I think. I think I. And I'm gonna say this, and I wanna explain what I'm saying. I think I suddenly buy into a prosperity gospel sometimes. And what I mean by that is not, I would say, a functional prosperity gospel. I'm like, well, it just should be easy, you know? And when it gets hard, I start thinking, what am I doing wrong? That's my first question. What am I doing wrong? Rather than, oh, yeah, the Christian life is described as a race, a battle, and childbirth. Yeah, it is hard, but they're all hopeful. And I think that's the thing, every one of those things. You fight a battle hoping for peacetime. You know, you run a race hoping for the finish line and childbirth is the hope of new life. And so, yeah, they're hard, but they're not run in vain. I mean, they're not labored in vain. You know, it's like a hopeful thing. And so the thing for me about this whole sin and even concentrating on what has changed for me in the years since I even started thinking about it was I used to think the problem was my circumstances. I can't battle that, actually. I can't control what happens tomorrow. Everything about my life could change tomorrow. I don't know anything. But what I can control is I can choose to know the Lord. He invites me to do that. So those things I can beg him to change my heart for whatever I face. Will you strengthen me for what tomorrow brings? That's what we can do. And so I was spending a lot of energy in the wrong place.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

This is actually very convicting for me because I. I didn't tell you this, but a couple of days ago, I just ministered in Chicago, my hometown, where we moved from. And I rolled past our old apartment at High park, and I was just. I traveled with one of my young guys. And I was just telling him. This is kind of ranting about how easy our life was. We had one child.

[Host Mike Perry]

What we thought was hard wasn't hard.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Yeah, but it was way easier than significantly, you know, one child. We didn't have as much slander on social media. I mean, you know, we have more businesses, so it's more. More responsibility, all of the things. But I think everything that the Lord is bringing us to, like, in five years, I'm gonna have so much probably to give to the world because of what he's allowing me to go through now. And I think I gotta just think about that. Cause I've been thinking about that the last couple days. I'm like, man, that one child life

[Host Mike Perry]

covered in that season. Covered in that season, But I'll end with it. I was reading, I think I said this in another podcast, this Elizabeth Elliot book where she was talking about her widow, the second one, because her first husband was a missionary that was killed, and then her second husband died from cancer. And so she's been widowed twice. And she said what she learned in her second widowhood that was different than the first was that it was her assignment where she was, like, what brought her contentment. It doesn't mean she didn't grieve, but she realized that the place that she was in was the assignment for her. And so I think that also is the word. It's like God's providence is something that we have to trust. Especially when we understand that he's not just sovereign. He has purpose with all that he allows. And that purpose is always for our good. So the place in which we are in, we are in Atlanta. You are in Charlotte. We have four kids, you have three that are out and about doing their thing. We all have our different burdens, our different cares, our different issues, but that place is the assignment. And so I think us finding God in it is what he's saying called us to do.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Way to bring it home, pretty face.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's so good.

[Host Mike Perry]

The envy of Eve we going to have this book in the show notes. She wrote this thing a decade ago but run them numbers up because you all need to do some Bible studies. I don't care you a a man or a dog. It might be saying about Eve but I think every human being and animal needs it now.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Real Talk is a good book.

[Host Mike Perry]

No, it's excellent.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

Buy it. If you don't, you'll lane so thank you.

[Host Mike Perry]

Thank you, Melissa.

[Co-host Preston Perry]

I love you.

[Host Mike Perry]

Thank you for doing the work writing all this down. We also did an Ephesians Bible study. We might as well put that in the show notes too that y' all can check out the things. So appreciate you. Bye. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by hob. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.