Let’s Talk About Deconstruction

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Let’s Talk About Deconstruction"

Podcast: With The Perrys
Hosts: Jackie Hill Perry & Preston Perry
Guest: Pastor Jerome Gay
Date: July 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Perrys sit down with Pastor Jerome Gay to dive deep into the topic of deconstruction in the Christian faith. They explore what deconstruction means, why so many believers are going through it (especially recently), myths around it, and how to faithfully navigate seasons of doubt, disillusionment, or church hurt. With sensitivity, scriptural insights, and humor, they discuss suffering, syncretism, sexuality, spiritual abuse, slavery, and more as common factors prompting deconstruction, and pastorally encourage listeners on how to process, heal, and find community.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Defining Deconstruction

[07:08 – 08:34]

• Deconstruction is broadly defined as a process where believers dissect, question, and assess their faith—often resulting in either a rebuilding of biblically rooted convictions or the adoption of new beliefs.
• The term gained popularity in the last 5–6 years, especially during the pandemic, due to personal suffering and exposure to diverse ideologies online.

“People were confronted with—not, is God real?—but the question became, is God good?”
— Pastor Jerome Gay [08:13]

• Deconstruction often leads people toward one of three outcomes: atheism, agnosticism, or a selective, syncretistic spirituality.

2. The Importance of a Theology of Suffering

[09:37 – 12:57]

• Many deconstruct when suffering strikes due to lacking a robust biblical understanding of suffering.
• Jesus and Scripture promise suffering is part of Christian life (John 16, 2 Tim 3, Rom 5).

“The founder of our faith suffered. So an aspect of Christlikeness is suffering...suffering produces character, endurance, and hope.”
— Pastor Jerome Gay [12:15]

3. The Seven 'S's Causing Deconstruction

[13:06 – 14:06] Pastor Jerome names seven main areas (all beginning with 'S') that trigger deconstruction:

• Satan: The problem of evil.
• Suffering: The problem of pain and loss.
• Slavery: Perceived divine endorsement of oppression.
• Sexuality: Conflicts with LGBTQ+ issues.
• Sexism: Perceived misogyny in Scripture or the church.
• Spiritual Abuse: Church hurt or leadership failures.
• Syncretism: The pull to merge multiple worldviews.

4. Syncretism & the Dangers of Spiritual ‘Smoothies’

[14:16 – 17:29]

• Syncretism is mixing religious beliefs or worldviews; described as a "spiritual smoothie" that dilutes Christian distinctiveness.
• The conversation highlights the inconsistent logic of combining mutually exclusive faiths or practices.

“Jesus does not do spiritual polyamory. He is not doing an open relationship."
— Pastor Jerome Gay [17:03]

• Christianity’s claim of exclusivity is a common reason for deconstruction, especially in a pluralistic society.

5. Relativism & the Myth of 'No Absolute Truth'

[18:24 – 21:12]

• The irony that deconstructionists often claim Christians are supremacist or intolerant, but then assert their own worldview as superior.

“...To attack the Christian worldview is to say, y’ all are wrong and I'm right. And so if there is no absolute truth, if all truth is subjective, you have no real reason to be mad at anybody.”
— Preston Perry [20:31]

6. Sexuality, Shame, and Spiritual Abuse

[22:20 – 27:29]

• The church has often mishandled conversations around sexuality, shame, and sin, sometimes shaming or ostracizing people instead of walking with them.
• Jerome Gay urges balanced, compassionate care—being welcoming but not affirming, and challenging all forms of sin equally.
• Love is scripturally defined as: a person (God), a choice (obedience), and an action (the cross)—not merely a feeling.

“For the Christian, love is a person...a choice...an action.”
— Pastor Jerome Gay [26:30]

• Redefining sin based on harm leads to emotional, not biblical, definitions of morality.

7. Harm, Consent, and Offending God

[28:29 – 33:21]

• The cultural logic that whatever feels good or is consensual isn’t sinful is countered by Paul’s teaching (1 Cor. 6, Romans 1).

“Just because it's consensual does not mean it’s not harmful.”
— Pastor Jerome Gay [30:43]

• Sin ultimately offends God, not just people.

8. Whitewashing, Slavery, and the 'White Man’s Religion' Critique

[38:54 – 48:43]

• Many deconstruct because of historical misrepresentations: Ephesians 6 and slavery, whitewashing of biblical figures and theology, claims that Christianity is "the white man's religion."
• Pastor Jerome clarifies the context of slavery in the Bible (indentured servitude vs. race-based chattel slavery) and the diverse, African roots of early church fathers.

"These were African men who helped lay the foundation of what we believe...Tertullian, who coined the word Trinity, was an African."
— Preston Perry [44:47]

• Knowing church history—and starting from the imago Dei in Genesis 1—helps affirm the dignity of Black and Brown believers, countering the wounds of whitewashed Christianity.

9. Spiritual Abuse and Church Hurt

[53:48 – 62:04]

• Personal stories reveal how spiritual abuse and unhealthy church leadership can devastate faith.
• Validates the reality of church hurt—“the church is made of people”—and the need for repentance, counseling, and careful, slow return to community.

“Don’t blame Christ for what Christians do. Christians don't always represent him well, but he will never fail you.”
— Pastor Jerome Gay [56:06]

• Healing often requires risking community again—with hope and time.

10. Navigating Deconstruction with Community and Honesty

[64:03 – 67:03]

• Deconstructing alone is dangerous; it’s healthier to process doubts around authentic, honest Christians who admit their own struggles (Ps 77, Habakkuk, Imprecatory Psalms).
• The best support is found in real people who aren’t afraid to say, “Sometimes I struggle, too—even as a pastor.”

“The beautiful thing about Jesus is He's a surgeon, not a butcher. Both cut, but the surgeon cuts to heal you.”
— Pastor Jerome Gay [66:58]

11. The Four A’s of Deconstruction

[67:10 – 69:07]

1. Assessment: Evaluate your beliefs; healthy if you’re examining unhealthy forms of Christianity (e.g., fundamentalism, prosperity gospel).
2. Adaptation: Are you adapting based on Scripture, or personal preference?
3. Adoption: If not scripture-based, you may adopt a “Christianity” disconnected from biblical orthodoxy.
4. Abolish: There’s a place for abolishing unbiblical baggage, but abolishing Scripture itself leads to a hollow faith.

“Rather than deconstruct, let's renovate and stay in the house, stay in the church and let’s renovate it as opposed to deconstructing and leaving.”
— Pastor Jerome Gay [69:03]

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Notable Quotes

• “Jesus does not do spiritual polyamory. He is not doing an open relationship.” — Pastor Jerome Gay [17:03]
• “We are called and we're told not to forsake the congregation of the brethren... You cannot separate Christ from his bride.” — Pastor Jerome Gay [58:25]
• “If there’s any scheme of the devil, he don’t want us to believe again.” — Jackie Hill Perry [63:53]
• “Don’t blame Christ for what Christians do. Christians don’t always represent him well, but he will never fail you.” — Pastor Jerome Gay [56:06]
• “The beautiful thing about Jesus is He’s a surgeon, not a butcher. Both cut, but the surgeon cuts to heal you.” — Pastor Jerome Gay [66:58]
• “Let’s renovate and stay in the house, stay in the church.” — Pastor Jerome Gay [69:03]

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Section Timestamps

| Segment | Time Range | Summary (Key Moments) | |----------------------------|---------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Introduction | ~01:05–07:08 | Sleep, spiritual sensitivity, the context for the conversation | | Defining Deconstruction | 07:08–09:37 | What deconstruction is and how it rose in prominence | | Theology of Suffering | 09:37–12:57 | Biblical suffering—missing from most people’s faith foundation | | The Seven S's | 13:06–14:06 | Main areas prompting deconstruction | | Syncretism | 14:16–19:46 | Spiritual "smoothies," exclusivity of Christ and conflicting worldviews | | Relativism & Truth | 19:46–21:15 | Relativistic culture, absolute truth | | Sex, Shame, Spiritual Abuse| 22:20–27:52 | Sexuality, love, and church mishandling of sin and shame | | Harm & Consequences | 28:29–33:21 | Redefining sin, offending God, biblical definitions of harm | | Race, Slavery & History | 38:54–48:43 | Whitewashing, slavery, African roots of the Church | | Church Hurt | 53:48–62:04 | Stories of abuse, validation, pathways to healing | | Healthy Processing | 64:03–67:03 | Importance of community & authenticity in walking through deconstruction | | The Four A’s | 67:10–69:07 | Pastoral conclusion: assess, adapt, adopt, abolish |

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Closing Takeaway

This conversation offers an honest, compassionate look at deconstruction, validating pain and questioning, but urging listeners toward biblical faithfulness, community, and hope-filled restoration rather than solitary abandonment. The core message: Don’t run from Jesus or His people—bring your questions, hurts, and struggles, and let God, Scripture, and healthy community lead you to wholeness.

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Resources, recommended authors/books, and further support are listed in the episode notes.

Transcript

[Perry]

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[Pastor Jerome Gay]

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[Preston]

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[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Come join us. Sam's Club.

[Perry]

Hey saint tonight, how are you? Hope you bless. Hope you all stuff. I'm getting tired.

[Preston]

What, what up? What up with y'?

[Perry]

All? I'm getting tired cuz you know something happen. Be real honest, be real transparent. So life has been just stressful on, on many levels. And so I've been taking sleep medicine to go to sleep and to stay sleep. And I was like, you know, I don't want to be them like sleep medicine addicts. So I was like let me like get off of it.

[Preston]

And now I need them sleep medicines every day.

[Perry]

I. I've been waking up at like 4 or 5. But here's the crazy part. Every time I wake up, it's people and things to pray for. And I'm not even trying to think about it. It's just like I'm just seeing and hearing that like and I, I was driving to kids school, I was like when I was like lord, I won accept those prayers cuz it be on some help on God. And then I fall asleep and give him vision.

[Preston]

Father be like sense you up. Yeah.

[Perry]

But I was like, like do you want me to get up? Or like is it acceptable in your sight to kind of like toss it your way and then like doze off again? Do you think that, do you think he accepts that?

[Preston]

Absolutely.

[Perry]

I mean I don't know if he does.

[Preston]

No, seriously, like literally Hebrews 4 lets us know that we have a great high priest who sympathizes with our weakness. Meaning like we have a high priest

[Perry]

who like literally became you can watch and pray too. Like, why are you.

[Preston]

But what I'm saying is we serve God who knows what it feels like to be sleepy like you, if you really think about that, like Buddha can't say that. Like the Mormons can't say that. Like we serve a God who, who got sleepy. So he empathizes with the fact that you was like, all I got is help him, Lord.

[Perry]

He's so holy. I, I just, when you look at, when you look at the priesthood, just the way they was doing the incense, it was like perfect and stuff. So it's just, I mean, he did

[Preston]

rebuke the disciples in the garden for falling asleep. I mean, he was about to die. He was like, yo, they about to come get me.

[Perry]

Pastor Jerome Gates, you tell me, does God accept our little raggedy in between sleep prayers?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

I would say he does.

[Perry]

Why?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Romans 8. Romans 8 walks through three types of groanings. First are the groans of creation. Then secondly are the groans of God's children. Then it's the groans of the comforter. And so the Holy Spirit is able to interpret even our jacked up prayers by the time it gets to the Lord's ears, which is a, you know, anthropomorphism, ascribing humanity, human aspects to the Lord.

[Perry]

So he still heard it.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

He still heard your Lord, help him pray? I think he did.

[Perry]

Oh, okay.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

I think he did.

[Perry]

I got to get up then. That's basically what you said to me. I, I could just because the way

[Preston]

you sounded, you sounded like you didn't even have the ability to get up when I lit.

[Perry]

I can't explain. I'm literally, I wake up and stuff is on my heart and so I'm just like, it literally could, it's like, it could be a person and it's like sin they need to repent of and pride they got that they don't know about. And I'm like, okay, so Lord, help them to see their pride and their sin. And I literally turn over because I want to go to sleep now. And then I'm woken back up with another scenario. Like, and so I don't know, may

[Preston]

the Lord want you to get up and walk around.

[Perry]

I'm not doing that. And so I just, I want to

[Preston]

say, you ain't doing what you got to do.

[Perry]

Everybody who's being woken up in the middle of the night and you tired by 2pm I empathize. Jerome Gay.

[Preston]

Welcome Master Jerome Gay.

[Perry]

I was finna call you doctor, but

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

I was like, do you got a PhD? Nah. I do not.

[Perry]

You look like you got a PhD.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

There's a lot going on in the. You got master's degree? I do have a master's.

[Perry]

What you got a master's degree in? You know, some people say they doctors.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

They ain't doctors. Exactly, exactly. So I am not a doctor at all. No, but just Christian theology and ethics. Christian studies.

[Preston]

That's dope, man. Pastor Jerome Gay has been, you know, a person that we've done ministry with, and you've done such great work the last, what, what, five, seven years I've known you. Yeah. I actually just left your conference the other day in Raleigh. His Reforma Urban Reformation Conference. If you want a solid theological conference to go to next year, go to the Urban Reformation Conference at his church. And it was one of the most theologically dense but also helpful and intentional conferences I've been a part of, so thank you for allowing me.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Praise God, man. Thank you for being a part of it, man. Vision Church. Vision Church in Raleigh, North Carolina. Yeah, Vision Church in Raleigh.

[Perry]

I, I, I think I spoke at y' all Women's Sunday.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

You did?

[Perry]

And what was like, I told you this in the office. I was like, I have never heard of a church that gives room for the gifts, but in such an orderly way. Because you were expressing how y' all was gonna have a worship night. And, like, y' all created a pamphlet on some. Like, if you have a word of knowledge, then this is how you go about it. We meet with the elders. We testing that prophecy.

[Preston]

I love that.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And I said, I've never heard of

[Perry]

nobody actually doing the opposite of First Corinthians.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

You know, it's right there in First Corinthians 14. Just do what it says.

[Perry]

I love that.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Do what it says.

[Perry]

I just was like, you need to do a podcast about how to function in the like. Because y' all aren't quenching the gifts.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

No, because that's.

[Perry]

That seems to be the extremes. It's either we are, like, letting all of the gifts roam free, including their perversions. Right. Or we're quenching them right where the Holy Spirit has no room to do what he does. And so I just, I don't know if y' all need a church that's just orderly. And y' all got a lot of men in there, too, if you're single. I'm playing. I'm not.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

No. No, I'm not. We want godly relationships. Amen.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Perry]

There's a lot of men in your church. That's not that's not common.

[Preston]

Yeah, man. One of my closest disciples back in the day from years ago, I used to disciple in Chicago. He ended up moving to rally, and he popped up, and I'm like, where you going? He like, I'm going to this church. I was like, thank you, Lord. Because he need a good church and a good. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm just seeing so many people who have found your church and how. How much of it's been a blessing to them. Dope. So what we talking about today, though?

[Perry]

Okay, so deconstruction, it's like. It's. I think it's a. A word or phrase. It's not. I feel like the last five, six years, it's kind of been in the Christian lexicon. And so we want to define it, we want to talk through it, and primarily we want to disciple y' all through it, you know, because there's a lot of people, particularly online or books that are being written, that what they're calling deconstruction is heres, and it's false teaching, and it's leading you to hell. But then there is a thoughtful, I think, biblical, godly way to parse through what you should and shouldn't believe, what you should and shouldn't do. And if you want to call that deconstruction, okay, but let's define it according to the Bible so that we can actually walk wisely. So that's ultimately what we're trying to do. So what. I guess, when were you introduced to the term and how, like, what meaning was communicated with it?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

So to your point, about five to six years ago, I saw the term being used a lot during the pandemic. So during the pandemic, people were confronted with not, is God real? But the question became, is God good? My grandmother died, and I had to do her funeral on zoom.

[Perry]

Wow.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

How is he good?

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And so people begin to go through this process of assessing their faith, and that's essentially what deconstruction is. It's not something that's immediate. It's a process to. When you begin to dissect, question and then assess your faith, and then from there, you determine if do you believe the scriptures or not? Now, if you read, like, Elisa Childer's book on Christian deconstruction or what is deconstruction? They connect it to postmodernism because people are not using the Scriptures to your point, when they're not using the scriptures as part of their assessment, then they're going to deconstruct. To either atheism, where they no longer believe agnosticism, where now they're saying they don't know if God is a he or she or an it, but they believe in spirituality or what we're seeing more now is a form of godliness. That second Timothy where I'm going to pick and choose what scriptures I believe, but I'm going to use an esoteric hermeneutic where I look within and if it feels harmful, then I resist, reject it, but if it make me feels good, I accept it.

[Preston]

That's good. I have a question though, what you just said, because I do think people did start to deconstruct their faith when things got hard, when things hit the fan. And how much of how much is it that we as a church should kind of teach people the theology of suffering? Yeah, that can help them not even go through the process. Because what I hear, like people deconstructing their faith because they had to do their grandmother's funeral on zoom. It's like, do they not have an accurate depiction of suffering? Speak to that, like preparing Christians to do this life. Well, I don't know about y', all, but growing up, I wasn't taught about life insurance. I wasn't taught about, you know, leaving an inheritance for the next generation, for my children and my children's children. But one thing that we all know about this life is that we're not gonna be here. And so if we start thinking about how we can leave our family in a better position than when we came here, I think it would be helpful for us to start thinking about these things early.

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[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah, that's one of the reasons. And we can talk about the seven reasons people are deconstructing. But, yeah, so, you know, we have to. For believers, we got to ask, you know, like, what Bible are you reading? Right. And I don't. And I don't want to say it in a pejorative way, but seriously, like Jesus says, in this world, you will have trouble. That precedes, but I have overcome the world. Those who choose to live a godly lifestyle must endure persecution. If we suffer with him, we will reign with him. Christ suffered. He endured the cross scorning its shame.

[Perry]

That's the book.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And so the founder of our faith suffered. So an aspect of Christ likeness is suffering. And so we have a good. We have to get a biblical theology of suffering. Not that celebrates it, but Romans gives us a framework. Romans 3, where it says, you know, hey, not that we rejoice. You don't rejoice in a miscarriage. Right. You don't rejoice in the suffering. But it says, what does suffering produce? It tells us character, endurance, and hope. That's what we rejoice. And so we have to tell people, yes, you're going to go through. But the difference between the Christian and the atheist when they suffer is we know that our suffering is producing a deeper appreciation of the fruit of the spirit in us.

[Perry]

Yeah, yada bah. What are the seven reasons? I didn't know that there were more. Like, I didn't know there were all these reasons for deconstruction.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah. And so when you listen to what's being said, it pretty much boils down to seven. And then I'll follow your lead on how deep you want to go into these. And they all begin with S. I'm a pastor, so I love alliteration. Right. So with Satan, how much power does he have suffering? Why did God allow it? And how could he send people who suffer to hell? Slavery? Does God side with the oppressor? Sexuality? Does God hate lgbtqia people? Sexism? Does God hate or dislike women? Is Paul a misogynist? Spiritual abuse. Why do we keep platforming tyrannical leaders? And then syncretism. Why is there only one way? So those are the seven S's. When you begin to examine, if you listen to different people, it's gonna fall under one of those seven categories as to why people are deconstructing wow, man, it's so much.

[Preston]

Cause I wanna tackle four of them.

[Perry]

Yeah, I was gonna say I'm about three to four.

[Preston]

Yeah, I'm about three to four too. I mean, you wanna talk about secretism?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Let's go.

[Preston]

Because define it. Yeah, it's just this merging of ideologies, ideas, worldviews that we feel like we can take this, take that, take that and make our worldview almost. And I do think that a lot of heretics have, have popped up on the scene. And I think with the emergence of TikTok and threads and Instagram, of course, and Facebook, you have so many different ideologies out there.

[Perry]

You have so many heretics on Facebook.

[Preston]

Yes, there are.

[Perry]

Yes, I'll be on there.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Perry]

I didn't know it was my aunties now.

[Preston]

Yeah. And so like that's what syncretism is. It's this merging of so many ideas. And it's like we try to. And the gospel just doesn't work that way. And so talk about that, talk about the danger of that and talk about like how we're led astray by really just false teachers who just don't want to submit to us.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah. So I like to use the analogy of a spiritual smoothie. That's what syncretism is. So I want the love of Christianity, but I don't want the lordship of Christ. So I'm going to leave that there. So I do want the love. So God is love. And I put that in my spirit. But I also want some sage because I want to smudge these spirits out. So I want to put that in my smoothie. Then I want some African spirituality because Christianity is a white man religion. So I need to go back to my roots. I want that in my spiritual smoothie. And so we begin to pick and choose these aspects. Let me throw my horoscope in there because I'm a Pisces.

[Perry]

That's nasty.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

So you get all of these different aspects and you make this spiritual smoothie. But if you just think critically. And this is why apologetics is so important, right? Because when we read first Peter 3:15, it lets us us know. It says, give a reason for the hope that lies within you. That's the what. Yet do it with gentleness and respect. That's the how. So it lets us know that faith and reason can and should coexist. So if we do that as Christians and we just begin to examine, we say, well, how. How are they leading to the same place when they're not on the same Path. The Mormons believe in something known as progressive exaltation, that a man can become God. That's a different path. Islam, there is no assurance. So when you stand before Allah, you still don't know if you're getting in or not. You have to hope that your good outweigh. That's a different path. Christianity, we have assurance and we have eternal security. The Jehovah's Witness does not believe in the personhood of the Holy Spirit, even though Jesus uses masculine pronouns in John 14 and John 16. Right. The Buddhist is trying to reach nirvana, and they want you to live without desire and reach this place of nothingness. So if you just put those four together, how can those be leading to the same place when they don't even have the same destination? So when people say that we want to bring these, how could there only be one way? I let people know that Jesus does not do spiritual polyamory. He is not doing an open relationship. My wife and I are getting ready to celebrate 25 years. It's me and her. There is not an open relationship. And most people aren't into polyamorous relationship yet. They want to tell the God of all creation that he can't be exclusive in a relationship with him. So it's actually duplicitous and hypocritical, but it's not. Those paths do not all lead the same way.

[Perry]

Wow.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Even if we just look at it critically, it does not make logical sense. Even if you're not a Christian.

[Preston]

That's so good.

[Perry]

So how would syncretism and deconstruction relate?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Well, because we're making the claim and we gotta own it, and we don't run from it. We're making a claim that there's only one way. And so I tell Christians all the time, if we're gonna make the claim that there's one way, yeah, we gotta be able to defend it. There's one book and there's one path for 9 billion people. We need to be able to defend it. And so the issue with deconstructing is to say, well, they think of relativism. Well, truth should change. Truth cannot be absol. They use the example of, well, what about that person that lives in the boondocks in this place? What about that person? How could they go to hell? Or how could they? We're only a Christian because of America. And so they have all these different views. And so they say, well, because Christians claim exclusivity, this cannot be a faith because it's not tolerant or inclusive. Enough. So I'm gonna deconstruct away from Christianity because I don't like the idea of exclusivity.

[Perry]

Yeah, that's good.

[Preston]

Yeah. I've often talked about. I talked about that at your conference. It's the pluralistic society, this society that says every worldview, every ideology is equally valid just as long as you respect one another. But it's just like, no, like, for the person who stands on their worldview, what they're essentially saying is that the Christian worldview is wrong. And so you cannot properly refute the Christian worldview if you don't do to the Christian what you claim the Christian is doing to you and say, you're wrong and I'm right. And so that just also points that there is an absolute truth. And that's the reason why I love that you said we have to be able to defend it, because if we don't know how to defend it, we make these heretics who are trying to preach that we can have this smoothie with all these worldviews. It makes them seem right.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah. That's what I call deconstructionist duplicity. Is the claim they'll make is they're against Christian supremacy. Right. Because we claim exclusivity and we claim eternal security and we claim to have absolute truth, which, again, we own and we don't run away from. But they're presenting their view, saying their view is better. So the duplicitous aspect of their view is you're claiming to see more clear than we do. So you're actually claiming the same supremacy that you're accusing us of. And you just think your view is more inclusive and tolerant, but you're doing the very thing that you complain about Christians doing. You're doing that to us.

[Perry]

That reminds me one time, I don't know who was sharing about this, where they were talking about people who said that they won't teach their children any particular religion because they don't want to indoctrinate their children, the world will. And it's like, no, but even that position is an indoctrination.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yes, exactly.

[Perry]

So, like, you're.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

You are indoctrinating.

[Perry]

Yeah. You're still creating a framework and a perspective for how you believe your child should move through life, which is like, free form or whatever. And I was just like, oh, like, so good. We all are kind of innately hypocrites.

[Preston]

Yeah. Yeah. It's such, like, every time somebody attack the world, the Christian worldview online, I'm like, they don't See how hypocritical they're. They're being?

[Perry]

No.

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying? Because to attack the Christian worldview is to say, y' all are wrong and I'm right. And so if there is no absolute truth, if all truth is subjective, you have no real reason to be mad at anybody.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Exactly right.

[Perry]

It's Romans 1. It's this. Where is it at? Yeah, somewhere in Romans 1, where he talks about how they exchange the truth for a lie and they think themselves wise. But it's like, it is this belief that my perception of how life should be lived and how God should exist is, in fact, wisdom. And it's only through Scripture, the revelation of the Holy Spirit, that one realizes that it's other foolishness.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Perry]

You know what I'm saying? And I say that sympathetically.

[Preston]

Okay, you want to talk about any other other Ss? Spiritual abuse, I think. Say it again, babe.

[Perry]

I think.

[Preston]

It was really dope to see so many married couples from around the country coming together to talk about their problems, but also the different age groups and just seeing people in all different walks of life.

[Perry]

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[Preston]

So when we went, you know, I didn't know honestly what to expect, except for, you know, we have some mentors who speak at A Weekend to Remember. And one thing that I enjoyed is that they gave us very practical tools to work through our marriage. And the intentionality and the practical tools that they provided was really good. You can tell that that's their heart. It's the focus on helping marriage flourish and to thrive. And so it was just dope to

[Perry]

see learn practical biblical tools for communication, conflict, and connection and come home closer than when you left. Register now with Code Perry to save $100 on any getaway at weekendtoremember.com that's weekendtoremember.com Code Perry. I have to process this because it's not something that I've articulated well, but it's something I've been thinking about is clearly sexuality is a big thing that leads people to just have to wrestle, like with Christianity. And something I'm ask your perspective, but something that I want to write about and study is how much of the deconstruction is actually from a place of despair. You know, what I'M saying, like, I think there's a lot of people who tried to be straight or tried not to be, not to lust or try to be holy. And like, even Paul goes as far as to put to death whatever's earthly in you. And you're like, well, how do I take out the feelings and the temptations and the desires? And I think the, the attempt to do so feels like a failure where it's like, oh, I have to do away with this faith because it did not give me what it promised, which was freedom. And so I, I think, I don't know. I think shame is an underlying thing that should be explored more. That could be another when it comes to.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

I definitely agree with that because we have to admit that the church has allowed the heterosexual fornicating drummer because of his talent, but then shunned the homosexual unless he could sing and exploited his talent. And so when you have that type of environment, and I say this like, there are some aspects of the deconstructionist critique of Christianity that are accurate, but they have to stop broad stroking the entire church and saying all churches that are that way, as opposed to wheeling it down to their particular experience in the church. So that is something we need to own. Which is again, which is why spiritual abuse is one of those S's those usually go hand in hand. Like, I do want to wrestle. Hey, I have these desires. Help me figure this out as opposed to immediately sending me to hell and not having a discussion with me.

[Preston]

Yeah, that's good, I guess.

[Perry]

What is your like, even as a pastor, have you had experience with people deconstructing because of that one category? And what did that look like?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah, it looked like a lot. Sometimes, you know, and I have to keep anonymity, but, you know, parents coming to me, you know, about their children. And so we go right at it in terms of having the discussion about it. And I have some success, what I'll call success stories as well. So our approach has been we are welcoming but not affirming. So what does that mean? It's like, can a gay couple come to our church? Absolutely. Because they're gonna get the gospel at our church, they're gonna get community. They're gonna see the fruit of the spirit displayed not perfectly, but so we're like, hey, you're welcome to come here, but we're not affirming of the lifestyle of any heterosexual or homosexual sin. And we want to equally give the smoke on both and not be heavy handed on one. Now back to your question. I'm sorry. What it looks like is we want to enter into that person's pain and ask them questions. And we want to explain that your feelings are real, but they're not always right. Your feelings are a gauge, but they're not a good guide. Our feelings, even heterosexual, we've had feelings for toxic people because they look good or because they have a way, they're charismatic. And so I want to help people to go through that. But then what does it mean to cast down imagination, imaginations and thoughts to. If you're claiming to be a Christian, this is an aspect of spiritual warfare. So now how do we fight? And then coming back to how are we defining love?

[Perry]

That's good.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

So like the culture is saying, this is the phrase that's been out recently is I'm choosing to lead with love. And so the question for us is, what's love and how are we defining it? And so I want to tell people, for the Christian, love is three things. Number one, love is a person first. John 4:7, 8, God is love. Number two, love is a choice. Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commands. John 14, 15. And third, this gets us back to the gospel.

[Perry]

You know, all the addresses.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And then the third thing, love is an action which gets us back to the gospel. God demonstrated his love and why we were yet sinners. Christ died for us. Romans 5:8.

[Preston]

Because the world tells us love is a feeling.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Exactly. And if you notice in that definition, it's not a feeling because our feelings are fickle. Love is a person. Love is a choice. Love is an action. So for the Christian, since God is love, then he defines love and he determines how and who we love.

[Preston]

That's beautiful.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And that's the issue is. And which is why they have to demean the word of God. Because there are certain scriptures they just can't wrestle with. So let's say. So they'll say either they don't like Paul or they want to question the veracity of the Scriptures. So we got to have a biblical definition of love. But I do think it's important that we present this and approach people with curiosity and compassion, not assumption.

[Preston]

That's really good.

[Perry]

One second, folks like, I don't know if he's actual.

[Preston]

No, I was just affirming what my brother said.

[Perry]

I felt it in my spirit. Folks like Matthew Vines and others have attempted to make the argument that to consider homosexual activity as sin is in and of itself unloving. Therefore proving that even that theology must be wrong or false. And it's this Idea that if what I'm communicating is harmful, then what I'm communicating isn't Christian. I have a response, but I'm curious to know what you would say to that.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah, so this is one of the things about. So it's again, more alliteration. Right. So deconstruction has four things. Number one is assessment, so they assess what they believe. The second A is they then adapt. Now, the question is how that adaptation is taking place. Am I adapting the scriptures to me, or am I adapting to the scriptures that leads to the third A they're going to adopt. And so what you find with a lot of deconstructionist Christians is they started off engaging other deconstructionists, but then they begin to indulge into the ideology. Right. And so after you go from that adoption, you're going to then abolish the scriptures. When you abolish the scriptures, which is that fourth A now it's. We're gonna redefine sin as harm. And so they're gonna say, what's really harmful is thinking that something is wrong with you. That's what's harmful. And so, because that's the premise. So we disagree with their premise and their presupposition, we gotta first unpack that and say, well, what about you harming me with your position? See, we have to show them the harm only goes one way. From their perspective, it's only the Christian doing the harm. The Christians aren't being harmed. And so we gotta put a mirror, because their presupposition is not defining sin or harm biblically, but defining it emotionally. Does that make sense?

[Preston]

Jackie, you're seeing a lot of that now that Christian theology, Christian ideology is harmful. Right. I've seen this one particular guy on the Internet saying, is the homosexual community doing anything harmful to anybody? So aren't Christians the one harming? And I'm like, that's. That logic is so flawed. But it is this notion being kind of, like, taught that Christians are just. The Christian worldview is the most harmful worldview out there. And it's just like. No, like, actually, religion has added way

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

more to the world than it's taken away.

[Preston]

Yeah. Taking away all atheism, agnostic. You know what I'm saying?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

It made me think about pressing 1 Corinthians 6. Right. Which is addressing primarily heterosexual.

[Preston]

That's what she just turned to.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Okay.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston]

In the spirit.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah, yeah. First Corinthians 6. Because just because it's consensual does not mean it's not harmful. Yes. See they are equating conflating consent with comfort and consent with it being good. But what Paul is saying.

[Preston]

Or just being happy.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Oh, yeah, exactly like Romans 1, because they'll say, well, it was really about pederasty. It was about abusing male young boys. But Romans 1, Paul is saying, no, they exchanged natural relations for each other. That's consensual. And he's calling it harmful for 26 women. Exactly. Yep. And 1 Corinthians 6, he's saying it's consensual, but it's still harmful. And so again, because we're not letting God define it. And the deconstructionist that is deconstructed away from Christianity, anything that goes against this idea, what Jesus told us to do is if any man would be my disciple for Matthew 16:24, we must first, what, deny ourselves. So self denial is harmful because it gets in the way of sex actualization. And they believe that God exists to cater to them, not to counsel them.

[Perry]

Wow. I'm gonna read what is being referenced. First Corinthians 6, 18. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body. But the sex immoral person sins against his own body. So in essence, sin harms you. But also, I think in this conversation, what's always so interesting to me is that the nature of even that position is revealed when all you could. Like, you're not even considering that God is offended. We're not harming anybody. God is offended. You know, like he. He made heaven and earth. He. He's the create. Like, and, and he sent his son to die for that same thing. And so if there is any harm being done, it's to God's glory. And that's why it's a problem that's so deep.

[Preston]

Because. Yeah, what you're saying is sometimes from the people who make these complaints, they could just be so people focused, them focused, Christians focused. Because I have you considered God don't

[Perry]

matter, and that tells you everything you need to know.

[Preston]

Yeah, that's good.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Well, they're spiritual and some of them are admitting it now, which I appreciate. They're spiritual humanists. So humanism centers humanity. It's anthropocentric. It's man centered. So the focus. And some have even said, I'm not trying to be a great Christian, I'm trying to be a great human. So they're saying, look, any way I can center humanity. So it is not Christocentric. And that's why they operate the way

[Perry]

they Do I actually appreciate that. I really hope y' all are making time for your annual checkups. Get your blood work, your lab work, stuff like that. You know, some of y' all are rounding around 40. You need to get your prostate checked, things like that.

[Preston]

Why you have to look at me when you say a prostate check?

[Perry]

I don't have to get my prostate checked. We personally have kids, so I want to stay healthy for them. For us. We recognize that what you do do before the appointment does matter. So before your next checkup, make the one health change your doctor should notice, or you get your money back and make it field of grace. Doctors today, they don't just look at your regular age. They look at your calendar age, how healthy your cells are, how vital your organs are. And field of greens was designed with all of that in mind. Each fruit and vegetable is doctor selected to support your cells, heart, lungs, kidneys, and a healthy weight.

[Preston]

And I don't know if you know, but a lot of our health problems starts with our gut. And a lot of our gut problems happen because we don't eat a lot of vegetables. And sometimes we on a run, it can be very tempting to just go get some french fries and a hamburger. But feel the green allows you to eat vegetables on the go.

[Perry]

Go into your next physical, confident, one scoop once a day. Done. Make field of greens your one smart change this year. You could check out the university study and get 20% [e-mail] promo code Perry. That's fieldofgreens.com promo code perry. I value honesty. Like, if you say I hate God bet like we could. That's why I like going to Portland. Them I could work with that. It's y' liars in South Carolina that I don't. That I be having.

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying? I think the tricky part. Tricky part comes in is when you have syncretism. You have people who actually try to do both. Try to be humanist but also try to be Christian. Because the guy who just the guy who criticized me, we was talking about it like he tries to be both. It's like you really can't do both successfully and serve the Lord. You know what I mean? And so I think he tries to focus on human dignity and then. But at the same time, he's calling himself a pastor. And so, like, it's just. It's confusing. I do want to move on to another S, but if y' all still on this S, we can, we can.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

I'm following y' all lead I just want to.

[Perry]

I think, I wanted to say something. I think, again, I just. I think God's glory is the thing that our human nature despises. And I think a lot of people attempted to live a Christian life without the power that animates it. And so I think some of the shame and some of the despair could be not merely just that you love your sin more than you love God. That's the thing. But it's also that you try to stop love and sin without power. And so I think people have to interrogate was like, it's like, I tried to be a Christian. That's the problem. Like, you try to be a Christian. Jesus makes people Christian. And so I just. I don't know, I just feel like there's some frustration sometimes where it's like, I tried that. I did that and I was like, yeah, I think you was trying to live and you was still dead and you frustrated by that. And it's like, that's. You get mad at me when I'm like, no, like, he actually made me alive. So, I mean, I have power and I am frustrated and I do struggle, but I have power. And so that's always the difference between.

[Preston]

Yeah, we also kind of talked about this last podcast that we.

[Perry]

We.

[Preston]

That we recorded was the first podcast we recorded today. But, you know, I, I do think that's what the Christian has to have some type of empathy.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Empathy, absolutely.

[Preston]

To say, you know what? Because they tried to do something on their own power, it's probably a reason why they think I'm a liar. It's probably a reason why they think I'm a liar. I've experienced something that they haven't. And so because they tried to experience it and didn't get to their destination, I probably just look like a huge counterfeit to them. Because the Bible tells us a natural man doesn't understand spiritual things, for they are spiritually discerned. And so I do think that it's frustrating.

[Perry]

Yeah, I totally understand.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Or they will lie too. Like, if you under a prosperity gospel type leadership and they're telling you you can speak things into existence, or you can sow a seed and spin around three times and your husband is coming, or your deliverance is coming and that you can buy this and you literally believe it and you do, and it'll happen, and it doesn't happen, they're like, well, I've been lied to. So we gotta realize that some people, which again, which is why spiritual abuse and church hurt is again, one of those Reasons we need to be empathetic and ask questions. What was your experience? And not just assume that everyone's not deconstructed' cause they just wanna have sex. Like there are some legitimate church hurt, spiritual abuse concerns. People aren't encouraged to ask questions in certain churches. So these are things we need to explore. So I do want us to keep a. A loving disposition, even if they throw the smoke at us. Jesus says, Jesus, when he was reviled, he didn't revile in return. So now we're not afraid of the smoke. But we need to make sure again, 1st Peter 3:15, that we're gentle and respectful even as we rebuke some of the things that are coming at us.

[Preston]

Yeah, I want to talk about this next s Right. So I know that me and you can nerd out about this next s. Probably not so much my wife. I just did your podcast and we talked about it. We don't have to talk about it in depth.

[Perry]

Sure, I'll be intrigued.

[Preston]

But, you know, we talked about it in the podcast I just recorded with you and Rally because I want to talk about it because I don't think the Christian church understands how much people are leaving the faith because of it. And I think because we sometimes. So in house, us Apologists and evangelists, we know, like, slavery is a huge thing.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Absolutely.

[Preston]

How much is a huge thing? And so I just want to talk about this idea that Christianity is the white man's religion and slavery. I also want you to talk about your book, the Whitewashing of Christianity. You got it with you?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah. Right here. Right here.

[Preston]

One of the Whitewashing of Christianity.

[Perry]

Hardcover.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah.

[Preston]

Yeah. It's a really good book. Talk about that. What are your initial thoughts?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

So one of the things when we talk about deconstruction. So a couple books I also want to suggest. I want to suggest the Great Dechurching because it gives us the sociological data as to who's leaving and why. And then church refugees. All right. Both of those books aren't so that way, pastors aren't just making up stats. It's like, all right, here's who's leaving. And it's primarily from the great dechurching white women close to 50 leaving. Right. There is a resurgence of young men general of all races coming back for the first time. Young men are coming back to church more than women. So more women are leaving than men are coming in a sense. Now the connection there is more have left in the last 25 years than all of the awakenings combined. And when you dig into that, one of the reasons for why black and brown people primarily is slavery because of Ephesians 6, 5 and the way some Reformed theologians have not really presented providence and slavery properly and presented like, well, God wanted this or y' all should just accept because that's how y' all found Christ. And it's like, no, we have to dig into that. So deconstructionists are looking at and saying, your God affirmed slavery. And so it appears that God is on the side of the oppressor and is contributing to oppression. And so some have concluded that Christ is on the side of the oppressor. And they have determined, hey, this is a white man's religion. So I'm leaving the faith. And that's why I wanted to write it. I wanted to say, hey, you're right about whitewashing because they did paint all the church theologians, all the African theologians white. All the angels, man, they made all the angels white. They made David white, Moses white, all these African, they made the Egyptians white. We might get Samson cause he had locks, but other than that, the Prince of Egypt.

[Perry]

I said, why are they speaking British?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah, so white. So I wanted to affirm their concern but disagree with their conclusion because the conclusion was to walk away from the faith. So there's a difference between white washing and white man's religion. So that's why I wrote it. Now when it gets to slavery, we have to deal with, hey, Ephesians 6:5, slaves obey your masters, right? Paul uses the term doulos, which he's talking about a servant. So Paul has indentured servitude in mind. He wrote this around 60 AD in a Roman prison, long before the transatlantic slave trade of 1619. So Paul does not have race based chattel slavery in mind at the time. The Holy Spirit has given him this revelation. He also talks about a different form in his letter to Timothy where he calls the ungodly who won't inherit the kingdom of God within that category are enslavers. So that should let us know that there are two different ways that word is used. So if we don't dig into biblical etymology, then we're now making an eternal decision to walk away from Jesus based on misinformation. And I wanted to address that in this.

[Perry]

It sounds like Genesis 3, don't it?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

That's what it sound like. Sound back to the book. And so that's what I wanted to do is kind of dig into that and say, hey, that's what's actually happening. There. And last thing, why don't they get to verse nine, Ephesians six, five. They stop there. Slaves, obey your masters. But then he adds something to the master, and he likes a master over everybody. Right. So he's making it clear that when you understand indentured servitude, some people actually sold themselves to pay off a debt. So he's not talking about beating, he's not talking about the translated slave trade. Exodus 21:16 says kidnapping is punishable by death. A lot of the transatlantic, while some Africans did sell each other out, it also involved kidnapping, which Jesus does not. God does not. Yahweh does not affirm. Yeah, so we have to dig into that. So I want to dig into that. I dig into that with people.

[Preston]

Yeah, but oftentimes when people say that Christianity is a white man's slavery, they have very poor history. And so they try to point back to, you know, 325 AD the Council of Nicaea. They try to point back to these times in history, and they just get the history just all wrong. But it's just like.

[Perry]

And then.

[Preston]

But when they want to talk about, you know, white church fathers, they. They go Back to the 1700s, John Calvin, but it's just like. But if you. Yeah, Martin Luther. But. But if you pay attention to a lot of the people that they were quoting, they were quoting African church fathers, you know what I'm saying? And so even in 325 A.D. during the council of Nicaea, like, it was a debate of like, you know, is Jesus eternal? Is God? J. And it's like, these were Africans. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, Tertullian, the one who coined the word Trinity, was an African. Clement was an African. Athanasius was a North African. And so I do think that they critique like the 17, 1800s. But then if you just go back to 325 A.D. these were African men who helped lay the foundation of what we believe and why we believe it and even fall for it at the council of Nassian, 325 AD and so,

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

yeah, yeah, so a couple things on that. One of the things, and this is my challenge to black deconstructionists, is you can't oppose white supremacy and use their hermeneutics at the same time. So if you believe that Paul did had the enslavement and degradation of black people in mind, you're now agreeing and affirming how white enslavers use that verse against black people. So now you're actually siding with their Hermeneutic on the test, on the text. You can't have it both ways. So if you just did a little homework on it, then you will now find yourself siding with the white supremacists based on their view of the text. Which is why we gotta know. The slave Bible, they removed 38 chapters from the book of Exodus. I wonder why? Because it's something about freedom and walking through a red sea. So if you just do a little homework right quick on the councils, three councils that people need to know about. All right, The Council of Jabna in 90 A.D. yeah, 90 A.D. that was a Jewish council to get us the 39 books of the Old Testament. All right, so this is before the Council of Nicotine, because they say Nicaea, they created Jesus at Nicaea. They created Christianity at Nicaea.

[Preston]

Christinity.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

No, I'm like nicaea. So now, 325 A.D. what happened there was the essence of Jesus was debated between Athanasius and Arius, the primary voices. So Christianity was not created there. And then The Council of Carthage 397 was the closed canon for the 66 books that we have. These councils did not create any. The councils were about debates, not creation. And that's a very important distinction that people need to know historically, because when they think that things were created, they're ignoring all that rich African history that preceded it and the African voices that were present at the council.

[Preston]

Yeah, yeah. Cause it's like saying it was. That's when doctrine was created. It's like saying the murder happened at the trial. Trials happen to figure out exactly who murdered the murder.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

That's a great analogy.

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying? And so, like, you fundamentally misrepresent what the council was even held. If you believe that the trinitarian doctrine or Jesus being God happened at the Council of Nicaea, it's just so far from the truth. Also, just one last thing. A lot of people have this idea that. Why did his name come back to you? Constantine.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Preston]

Constantine was the one who kind of like, pushed Christianity forward, but it was like, no, he's the one who gathered the bishop to come to the Council of Nicaea to vote on this debate between Athanasius and Arius. And so he was not even a theologian. He didn't care.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

He was an opportunist.

[Preston]

He was an opportunist. And if you look at Constantine's words, he's like, y' all just decide. I don't care.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

You know what I'm saying?

[Preston]

And so people like, I've heard people use that argument too, that Constantine is the one who made Christianity popular, and

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

that's all created it. And again, that's what's called an anachronism, which is a timeline era. So I just always ask people when they say, man, Christianity was created in 320. Okay, so what about the Edict of Milan? The Edict of Milan was 3 13. Where they legalized Christianity. Right. So how can you legalize something you ain't invented yet? So we just, again, we, as believers, we need to know some history. We do need to know more than just our scriptures because a soul is worth it. And so we gotta be able to make historical arguments, not just biblical arguments. Again, I'm not demeaning the word of God. All right, so don't nobody put something crazy in the comments. Comments. But I'm saying a soul is worth knowing history. And I've seen. I've done a lot of evangelism at the barbershop because I was able to debunk some of these assumptions because I knew history. And again, a lot of these deconstructions, while some are educated because they went to seminaries and things like that, a lot are using Google and TikTok for their research. And that's just not scholarly.

[Preston]

Yeah. And what you're just saying is basically just no outside sources so that you can help prove your primary source, which is the scriptures. And so. Yeah, that's good. That's good.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah.

[Perry]

While y' all were having a great discussion, I was thinking, it's a good discussion. I gotta study this stuff in class. I'm like, okay. But I think when it gets into dates and history, I'm like, all right, whatever, whatever. But all I could think of mainly is the. I'm always considering the emotional human motive underneath our research, you know, because I do think we're people who are prone to confirmation bias. And so even when it comes to people who are deconstructing, constructing because of white supremacy or because of slavery, I think underneath is the desire for their dignity to be affirmed.

[Preston]

Absolutely.

[Perry]

And I think that has to be highlighted. And so I guess, yeah, speak. You be talking to the black Hebrew Israelites and all that.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Perry]

I mean, let me say this because somebody could hear this, and all of this is legitimate and necessary information, but they think that the information is sufficient to save their brother. And so it's like, we need to get underneath how that information is actually disproving the lie that you're not worth anymore.

[Preston]

That's good, babe. Good way to bring it back. To the heart. No, I think that's really good. One of the things that my brother, Pastor Jerome just said is affirming fears and not affirming, but concerns. Concerns and not ignoring the fact that Christianity has been whitewashed. And so I think that one. That acknowledgement is great. In my time of talking to Hebrew Israelites, the Nation of Islam, I mean, you saw in our old neighborhood, just I was able to build with the nations of Islam is because I just wasn't a liar about what this country has done with Christianity.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Absolutely.

[Preston]

And so because I was able to sit in the tension of what they were frustrated with, they were able to hear me out more. And I was able to reach them and talk to them because I'm like, no. You know, and when they ask me questions like, so why are you still a Christian? I'm then able to then explain, this is the reason why I'm a Christian. It's because when I open up the Scriptures, I don't see the scriptures that. A scripture that has been whitewashed, I don't see that. You know, I don't. Like, I'm not a part of a religion or faith that has been whitewashed. And so what America has done has not tainted how I view God. And so then I'm able to point them to the real scriptures because I'm able to identify with their struggles, their pain. So I think. I think owning it.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

No, absolutely. And I think we have to. Now, again, I'm not. Before I say my. Let me preface my statement. Right. So I'm not against Reformed theology. I don't consider myself that. I don't embrace all five points of Calvinism. But I think one of the damaging things about a lot of kind of Neo Calvinists and stuff is they start with Genesis 3. So they start with the downfall of humanity. And when we're talking to deconstructionists, I'm starting with Genesis 1. That you're made in his image, that's good. And because you're made in his image, you deserve dignity, value and respect, even if you don't trust him. So I'm gonna give whether you. If the Holy Spirit converts you, because I don't convert. John 6. A man is not saved unless the Spirit draws him. So I want to start with, I'm having this conversation because you have value and that's an attitude for the gospel. And so while you may disagree and you may think that calling sin sin is harmful, the beautiful thing about our God is that he took on the harm that we did deserve Himself by going on the cross and becoming sin. 2 Corinthians 5, 21, for to give us redemption. Then he sends us out on mission to do the same, to tell people about him. So what you see as harmful, I see as beautiful because I start with chapter one, where we all deserve dignity, honor and respect, including the homosexual. Deserves dignity, honor and respect, including the atheist. Right. And so we have to start there. When we start just here. And we don't say there was some brokenness. That's what sin brought in, brokenness from God's original intent for us. If we start with chapter three and not chapter one, then it affirms this. This idea of degradation of humanity and not the dignity of humanity.

[Perry]

That's great.

[Preston]

Yeah, that's excellent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really good.

[Perry]

Me and Preston went on a cruise two weeks ago and we were talking about. It was lit. We were talking. I was trying to. Yeah, we were, because I was about to get my review. We were talking about a church that I was discipled in when I was a new Christian and how I think as far as members were concerned, probably three to 500 people as far as like people that would attend in the close to a thousand since that church was disbanded because the leadership was revealed to be sinful, just super legalistic, dare I say, spiritually abusive. And I was telling Preston, I was like, I think me and maybe one other person is still a good Christian. Nobody else is that I know of. They might be out there and they just like not on social media.

[Preston]

I know two of them might, so probably four. Yeah.

[Perry]

But I was talking about how I. I think some of. I think some of it is we weren't. We were getting a gospel, but not discipleship, not grace, not leaning on the Holy Spirit, all this stuff. But I also think the way everything came out, it's just like. Cuz Even for me, for two years, I was like, yeah, I'm pretty good on church. Like, we can just have go at the crib. You know what I'm saying? Dr. Coffee is part of something. And I think spiritual abuse and even just unhealthy churches play such a significant part on how people process the Lord.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yes.

[Perry]

Like, it just, it's.

[Preston]

It does something to our psyche.

[Perry]

I think I hear about that more than anything.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Thank you so much, Jack. I. I was hoping we could talk about that because we have believers denying that church hurts is a thing. And I saw one guy, he was like, well, if you go to gym, is your gym hurt? I was like, well, the church Is

[Perry]

a people breaks your muscles.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

What are you talking about? You got gym hurt, Right? But the church is made of a people. And so I'm reminded of Psalm 55, right? Where it says, it's not an enemy who hurts me, but it's a friend that we used to go to the congregation. Psalm 55, 12, 14. We used to go together.

[Perry]

That's good.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And that's where the hurt was. And so church hurt is hurt inflicted on members and attenders by leaders or the members of that church. And sometimes it distances people from God. That's how they feel, because that's where my fellowship. That's where I'm known, and I get to know people. And so we have to deal with the fact that the church refugee book deals with the Duns. And we have to go at this and say, spiritual abuse is real. I mean, I'm getting stories at my church, man. The pastor tried to holler. I was on vacation. He brought a cake to the house. He knew I wasn't there. We getting these stories. I shake hands in the lobby. We did a series in Second Peter exposing false teachers.

[Perry]

Did you have, like, a spiritual abuse knight or.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Well, no. So we have church hurt, small groups. And I was gonna say, one of the ways we can go at this is to help. And we've had a waiting list where we have a counselor leading that. We believe in Christ, in counseling. We have counseling firms. We work with our church, and we're not demeaning the scriptures and anyway, but we have to get at the reason that some people don't want to go is because they went and they had a terrible experience when they went. And so. But what I want to say to the person teetering on deconstruction is, don't blame Christ for what Christians do. Christians don't always represent him well, but he will never fail you. So I think it's important. And that was the other book. I wrote a book called Church Hurt, and the subtitle is holding the Church Accountable and Helping Hurt People Heal. And that's essential because I wanted to own it. And so, unfortunately, I've been on both sides as a pastor. I have hurt people. And we got to admit this for those of us in leadership, because one of the best things we can do as pastors is repent in front of our people and say, hey, I'm wrong, and apologize to people. And I've had to do that. So I've experienced it, but I've also caused it. And we need to also recognize that pastors get Hurt, too, because we're put on a pedestal. And we don't know we didn't meet your standard until we felt. And we didn't even know you was looking at us to do something like that. So it's just important that we do not deny that people have legitimate hurt.

[Preston]

Pastor Jerome, what do you say to the person who just heard you say, the church failed me, yada, yada, yada, but all I need is, like, Christ and not the church. What do you say to the person that says, yeah, that's the reason why I don't go to church. Amen, Pastor. That's the reason why I don't rock with the church no more. And I just deal with Jesus in my crib. You know, I have service by myself. I don't think that Christ hurt me. The church hurt me, and that's the reason I don't mess with his people.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

I want to. First again, I want to affirm their hurt. And I think we do two things. Either we dismiss church hurt, or we deny the hurt, deny the abuse. So I want to first acknowledge that person. Like, hey, let me get your story. Like, what happened before. I just invite you to my church because that's what a lot of people. People do. My church different. Hold on. This person just shared some deep stuff. And you went straight to. We got a 9, and we got an 11. Hold on, slow your roll. And let's hear the person's story. So I want to first do that, and then I want to say, hey, how long you and Jackie been married?

[Preston]

12 years.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

12 years. So something tells me, Preston, that a person cannot walk up to you and say, preston, I'm good with you, but I can't stand you. Your wife.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And Jesus.

[Preston]

A couple of those people, huh?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Jesus says the church is his bride.

[Preston]

I just told you that.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

You can't say, I'm cool with you, but I can't stand your wife and his wife. Because it's us, the church. She jacked up. She got some issues, but that's still his boo.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And so we are called, and we're told not to forsake the congregation of the brethren. So I want to enter in that pain that I'm for us at our church. Hey, we're not asking you to hop and do a whole bunch of stuff. Hey, let's get in one. Get in one of our church hurt groups or get in one of our trauma groups, and let's process your pain. But you cannot separate Christ from his pride. As imperfect as she is, the church is Jesus plan A. And he don't need a plan B.

[Preston]

Yeah, we have to know the Lord in that way. Cause like I was just telling Pastor Jerome at the church, there was, he was asking about a friend that I used to have. I used to have. And this friend didn't like Jackie and anymore. And cuz he.

[Perry]

They deconstructed, they deconstructed.

[Preston]

It ain't like Jackie no more. And the last thing I heard from multiple people, he was like, I love Preston. I just know I'm not, I'm not even gonna have a conversation with him because I already know if I'm not rocking with Jackie, he not rocking with me. And I'm like you, you run skipping exactly like you know what I'm saying? So. But like, because he knew me, he already knew that you don't. Don't come to me trying to have a conversation about how much more the Lord.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Exactly.

[Preston]

You know what I'm saying? Like we really gotta understand that the Lord is like, yeah, you can't be dissing my bride if you think that you're cool with me.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And so yeah, deconstructions are adept at compartmentalizing.

[Perry]

Yeah. I think one thing about pain and trauma, even when I was listening to Dan Allender this weekend and he was saying how through trauma we experience shame. And a fruit of shame is connected contempt. And I think with pain and contempt and shame we actually experience a degree of hopelessness. And I think post my situation with that church, it was the scriptures that reaffirmed the hope that I should have in this body because it's his body, you know what I'm saying? But also because it's his body led by him, him empowered by him. There's also like I, I'll read it. 2 Corinthians 3, Paul is talking. He says, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort. I think it's easy to stay there cuz it's like I'm hurt. All I need is God. But then verse four, who comforts us in all our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves have been comforted. And when I read that, I was like, O, some of this pain won't be mended if I don't get back in the church. Because it's the church that God then uses as a, as a means, as a conduit of the comfort that he has available to me. And it's that same comfort that he's then going to use me to comfort somebody else. And so I just think, I think it takes hope to believe that it's possible to be healed in the places that hurt you.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

I like to use the analogy, Jackie. We're all parents. And I remember when my son had to get his shots, right. He had to get his. And I'm trying to distract him. So I got the little airplane flying around, and he's looking at the airplane, and while they're looking at the plane, bow, they got him. Then when they got him before he cried, he looked at me like, you set me up. And then he started crying. But so I allowed the pain, but he reached for me to be healed from the pain he was feeling.

[Perry]

That's good.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And so the same one who allowed it, I was also the answer for his healing. And that's how God, our Father. We're not God, but we go through him. But he. So even though certain things have happened, you will find your healing through God. It's the Holy Spirit, through God's people. So the Pope hurts, but that same place can be a place of healing.

[Preston]

Yeah. That's the hard thing, though, when it comes to just deconstruction. But even just being church and church hurt. Like God want to use flawed human beings to help heal you, and flawed human beings was the one who hurt you. That's difficult. And one time you was talking about how the scripture says, do what it's hard or do what is difficult. It's like, that is a difficult thing to do. But it's when we do it, it's actually, you know, when we receive the, the, the healing, it's scary.

[Perry]

And, and I think pray like, you know, like, tell the Lord that, like, I don't like these people. I don't trust them. I'm mad, I'm angry, I'm sad, weep. And I, I, I just have consistently found that when I am really, really broken before God about whatever, the thing is, clarity, wisdom comes, but also power, you know what I'm saying? And I think we gotta be like Hannah gone to that temple and let them emotions out. You know what I'm saying? And she left the temple and her face was no longer sad. Now, for some of us, that might take two years to get to that place where joy is so evident and so prominent in our heart. But at the same time, don't neglect him as you grieve. And I think it's in that intimacy and it's in that place that Gives you the ability to show up in ways that are altogether strange. You should not want to return back to a church after they hurt. You should not want to get married after that man cheated on you. You should not want to love your ch like you shouldn't want to. But God, that's what resurrection power does. It does impossible things.

[Preston]

That's good.

[Perry]

And so I just. I don't know. I just want to be. I want this to be a place where we actually believe again. Because if there's any scheme of the devil, he don't want us to believe again.

[Preston]

Yeah, that's good. I do have. I do have a question that made me think about something, just talking about community. Like what? Like what is a healthy proximity that someone who is deconstruction should still have with believers and the church? Because when you're deconstructing from the church.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah.

[Preston]

It can be this temptation. How can I properly deconstruct if I'm just hanging with y' all in Christian, around Christians and the Christian worldview and so. But if we stray away from Christians, we can be led astray. So what does a healthy deconstruction look like for now?

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Yeah. I did. I did a video called 5 Mistakes Christians make with Deconstruction.

[Preston]

You've done a lot of five.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

One of them. One of them, though, I'm just gonna talk about. One of them was not admitting our own crisis of faith. And so let's be real. Like, you telling me it never crossed your mind, man, what if I die and it's just black?

[Perry]

Oh, yeah. Mm. What a waste.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

It never crossed your mind, like, man. Man, what. What is.

[Perry]

So I could have started. I could have.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Did I could. I could. Oh, I missed out on you. I missed out on. Right. You know, so I gave up that weed, that good weed for blackness, not glory. I point them to the impregatory psalms.

[Perry]

That's great.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Where it's like, these people are being uncensored. There's a question you. A two word question you see frequently in the Old Testament. How long? How long you gonna allow this? Habakkuk asks, how long? David asks. Right. And so I want them to be around people who are real.

[Perry]

That's good.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Who are authentic. And we're able to say, yeah, sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't feel like going. And I'm the pastor.

[Perry]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Like, yeah, yeah. So I say this in my pulpit, like, most of the time, 95% of the time, I do genuinely love the people of God. Some days I'm. I'M tired. Some days. Some days I just. Because this is a calling. I didn't choose this. No one in their right mind do this. Right. Right. It is a calling. So I think I want them around people who are real and authentic. That's good and that's what they need. Because that's what you see in the scriptures. Like, yo, I'm struggling with you, God. Psalm. It's a psalm singing. Psalm 77. He says, Jackie, to God, he says, I think of you, and I groan. He's telling God that I think about you and I get depressed and God, don't strike him down. And so that's. We just got to get back to the book. Like, if you know your Bible, I can be uncut with God and he ain't trying to cut me in a bad way. The beautiful thing about Jesus is he's a surgeon, not a butcher. Both cut, but the surgeon cuts to heal you.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And that's what he does. So, yeah, I want to bring Pat. I want them around authentic, real people.

[Preston]

That's fire.

[Perry]

Can you close with reminding us of. You gave a bunch of A's with all the A's.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Oh, for deconstruction.

[Perry]

The A's of deconstruction and just a closing, I guess, exhortation about anybody in that process how to do this.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Well, yeah. So the four A's. The first one is assessing. And there's nothing wrong with assessing the version of Christianity perhaps you were presented with because it could have been a legalistic one. Were you going to hell as a woman for wearing hands? It could have been a prosperity one where you pray for your mom to get healed, but she still died. And then they told you you didn't have enough faith. That's hurtful. So there's nothing wrong with the A of assessment. The second A is adaptation. The question is, how are you adapting from what you've assessed? Are you using the Scriptures as part of your adaptation? Because if you're not using the Scriptures, when you go to the third A, which is adoption, you're going to adopt a version of Christianity that is not biblically orthodox.

[Preston]

That's good.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And then it leads to that fourth A. Abolish. Now, there's nothing wrong with abolishing aspects of fundamentalism that are legalistic and not Christian. We should abolish those things. There's nothing wrong with abolishing the Republican Jesus or the Democrat Jesus. There's nothing wrong with that conflation of conservatism and Christianity or again, liberalism, because both sides, neither side has a true kingdom agenda. There's nothing wrong with abolishing that. But once you abolish the scriptures, well, now you're now cherry picking to where again, you want his love, but you don't want his lordship. So I just want to encourage people to come back to him. Like, he went through all this. The reason he didn't just fast forward to the cross is because he had to live in our place. To say yes when we said no and to say no when we said yes, he lived. And through him, now you get that imputed righteousness. So I want to encourage you to, rather than deconstruct, let's renovate and stay in the house, stay in the church and let's renovate it as opposed to deconstructing and leaving.

[Preston]

That's beautiful.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

And through the Holy Spirit and the community of faith. That can happen because salvation is personal, but it's not individual. You need community.

[Preston]

That boy good.

[Perry]

That's the doxology right there.

[Preston]

Yeah.

[Perry]

Well, we gonna have all the resources in the show. Notes. Thank you, pastor. Master's degree, bishop, apostle doctor, theologian. Jerome Gay. Apologies all things and appreciate you.

[Pastor Jerome Gay]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Perry]

Bye, y'.

[Preston]

All.

[Perry]

With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hob. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.