On Leadership, Assignment, and Brokenness with Dr. Crawford Loritts

Summary

Podcast Summary: "On Leadership, Assignment, and Brokenness"

With The Perrys featuring Dr. Crawford Loritts
Release Date: April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode of With The Perrys, Preston and Jackie Hill Perry conduct an in-depth, engaging conversation with Dr. Crawford Loritts—a respected pastor, author, and leadership teacher—about the true nature of leadership, the dynamics of calling and assignment, embracing brokenness, and the unique challenges that come with leading in the modern, often individualistic, culture. The discussion is rich in wisdom, personal stories, and practical examples, making it a must-listen for anyone wrestling with their own leadership role, calling, or spiritual maturity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Organic Nature of Leadership Callings

(03:27 – 05:57)

• Dr. Loritts describes leadership as something that often emerges organically from character and calling, not merely from ambition or desire.

• Leadership gifts are best developed when focusing on character and godliness:

  "Your gifts are most developed when you focus on your character and your godliness. The anointing is on the person, not on the performance, not on the platform, it’s the individual."
  — Dr. Crawford Loritts (04:45)

• Warns against self-orchestrated opportunities, emphasizing authenticity and allowing God-given influence to develop in its own time.

2. The Role of Others in Leadership Development

(05:59 – 08:12)

• Loritts shares deep appreciation for the mentors and leaders who saw potential in him, often before he recognized it in himself.

• The danger of hyper-individualism is addressed, as is the importance of being an extension of others’ investment and trust:

  "The hyper individualism that's in our culture today is a little sickening... That creates an incubator for arrogance that's out of control."
  — Loritts (07:07)

• Pouring into the next generation is seen as both a responsibility and joy.

3. Markers and Models of Real Leadership

(11:27 – 16:09)

• Jackie asks how to discern genuine leaders—it's not about being "bossy" or gifted at communication.

• Loritts insists leadership is not more important than other gifts; spiritual leadership must be rooted in discipleship and character:

  “You can identify it, you can help develop it, but you're not going to produce it. God will produce the leadership.”
  — Loritts (12:30)

• Leadership is about driving for solutions and movement (“living in the verb”) and is fundamentally tied to assignment and conviction, not mere position or information.

4. Conviction & Assignment—the Why of Leadership

(14:13 – 16:09)

• Leadership always involves stewardship of a specific assignment. Clarity of purpose precedes courage:

  "Leadership in the Bible means nothing apart from assignment... Clarity precedes courage. You're courageous for something, you're leading for something."
  — Loritts (15:12)

• Leaders often feel and move with conviction—even when they can't fully articulate the 'why.'

5. Dangers of Misplaced Leadership and the Importance of Gifting

(17:13 – 20:53)

• The discussion turns to common pitfalls: promoting people to leadership who lack the gift or calling just because they are present or talented communicators.

• Willingness ≠ readiness:

  "The worst thing in the world is to give someone with a desire to do something, but they don't have the gifting to do it, a position."
  — Loritts (18:31)

• Sometimes, it's better to have a gap than place the wrong person in leadership; otherwise, you risk identity issues and organizational harm.

6. The Seasons of Leadership: Learning, Leveraging, Legacy

(23:10 – 30:22)

• Loritts introduces his framework from Leadership as an Identity: The three 20-year seasons of life:

  • 20–40: Learning (obsessed with self-actualization, collecting experience, learning resilience)
  • 40–60: Leveraging (fruitfulness, facing the temptation to equate identity with accomplishments, maintaining humility)
  • 60+: Legacy (letting go of platforms willingly, championing the next generation)

• Notable quote:

  "Wisdom is the product of an endurance ride... You can Google knowledge, but you can't Google wisdom."
  — Loritts (24:28)

• Effective leadership is about adapting with each season and learning to release power and responsibility to others.

7. Brokenness as a Leadership Essential

(30:27 – 37:01)

• Loritts explains the crucial distinction between woundedness and biblical brokenness.

• God uses “holy handicaps” to keep leaders dependent on Him, and desperation becomes “a delightful friend” (not despair):

  "You have to embrace the reality that you need holy handicaps to keep you dependent upon God... Desperation is a wonderful sense of God neediness."
  — Loritts (30:51 & 31:06)

• True brokenness is marked not by celebrating pain, but by testifying to God’s provision in that pain.

8. Embracing Weakness & Dependence

(38:40 – 45:59)

• Using Peter's story, the group discusses the tendency for leaders to hide vulnerability out of obligation to "be strong," and the necessity for true dependence on God rather than self-reliance.

• Transparency, dependence, and humility—rather than perfection—mark biblically faithful leadership.

• Loritts:

  "Never underestimate the power of humility and the courage to say I’m wrong and the power of your repentance."
  — (45:59)

• Apologies in leadership should lead to real repentance and change.

9. Endurance and Sacrifice

(50:29 – 53:40)

• Leadership is not just about rewards and accolades but is measured by sacrifice and perseverance.

  "People will give you awards for what you accomplish... but they only truly honor you for what you sacrifice."
  — Loritts (52:44)

• Biblical examples show faithful leaders endured much hardship.

10. Christlike vs. Worldly Leadership

(53:42 – 55:38)

• True leadership is modeled after Christ: service, sacrifice, faithfulness.
• Power should be used to remove obstacles and empower others, not for self-aggrandizement.

  "Your credibility to lead is in direct proportion to your ability to serve."
  — Loritts (55:24)

11. Failure as Formational

(55:38 – 57:13)

• Failure is inevitable and necessary for Christlike character; leaders must own their mistakes and protect others.

  "Failure is the opportunity for Christlike character to shine forth." — Loritts (56:34)

12. The Unique Qualities of Female Leadership & Marriage Dynamics

(57:13 – 61:55)

• Women bring intuition, a “how-to” sense, and complementarity in leadership.
• Successful marriages and leadership partnerships require humility, celebration of each other's strengths, communication, and mutual submission.

13. Rethinking "Followership" and Worldly Measures

(62:03 – 66:12)

• The proof of leadership is not always followership, especially in a biblical context—many godly leaders saw their followers vanish.

  "Proof of moral leadership is not necessarily visible fruitfulness."
  — Loritts (63:19)

• Leadership in the Bible is prophetic and incarnational—not formulaic:

  "A leader is the portrait of the desired destination at which all things need to arrive."
  — Loritts (64:38)

14. The Blessing of Inadequacy—Uncommon Communion

(67:46 – 70:11)

• When God gives an assignment, He leaves a gap to force leaders into deeper reliance (“uncommon communion”).

  "Your inadequacy is a good thing... as long as it fuels desperation for God." — Loritts (69:08)

• The leader is changed in the process as much as the assignment is accomplished.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Character and Anointing:
  "The anointing is on the person, not on the performance, not on the platform."
  — Dr. Crawford Loritts (04:45)

• On True Leadership:
  "Nobody’s ever produced a leader. You can identify it, you can help develop it, but you’re not going to produce it. God will produce the leadership."
  — Loritts (12:30)

• On Brokenness:
  "God does not do double billing. He does not exist to pad your resume, to sustain your brand or whatever. It’s all about him."
  — Loritts (31:00)

• On Sacrifice:
  "They only truly honor you for what you sacrifice. Sacrifice and leadership go together."
  — Loritts (52:44)

• On Servant Leadership:
  “Your credibility to lead is in direct proportion to your ability to serve... Your power is given to make sure you identify the banks of the river, what is true and what is right, and you protect them from the wolves.” — Loritts (55:24)

• On Leadership and Family:
  "He gives us family as a primary means of sanctification to make us holy. And conflict... can be a gift from God, depending on how you respond to it."
  — Loritts (49:23)

• On "Uncommon Communion":
  "There’s always a gap between what God calls you to do and so that you have to press into God to get the resources to translate into reality what he’s called you to be about. So on your way to doing something, you become something."
  — Loritts (68:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:27 – The organic emergence of leadership and focus on character
• 07:07 – The danger of hyper-individualism in leadership
• 11:27 – Defining the true metric and origin of leadership gifting
• 15:12 – Leadership as stewardship and the necessity of conviction
• 18:31 – Pitfalls of misplacing people in leadership roles
• 23:10 – The three seasons of leadership: learning, leveraging, legacy
• 30:27 – Brokenness, holy handicaps, and dependence on God
• 38:40 – The curse of self-reliance and the blessing of transparency
• 45:59 – The power and importance of apology and repentance in leadership
• 52:44 – Sacrifice and enduring hardship as the marks of true leadership
• 55:24 – Leadership as service and empowerment, not self-protection
• 63:19 – Visible fruit is not the measure of moral leadership
• 64:38 – Prophetic, incarnational leadership: a biblical portrait
• 68:38 – Embracing inadequacy as spiritual formation (“uncommon communion”)

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Tone & Style Highlights

The conversation is warm, candid, and full of humor (especially between Preston and Jackie). Dr. Loritts delivers his insights with humility, gentle authority, and vivid storytelling. Throughout, the focus remains on Christ-centered, biblically-grounded principles, challenging the world’s common ideas of leadership, success, and strength.

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For Listeners

This episode is an enriching resource for anyone navigating leadership in family, church, or public life—especially in seasons of pressure, inadequacy, or brokenness. It offers both practical advice and profound encouragement to embrace callings with humility, to persevere through difficulty, and to let God—not performance—define both your leadership and your legacy.

Transcript

[Preston Perry]

Foreign.

[Jackie Perry]

How are you?

[Preston Perry]

What's up with y'?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

All?

[Jackie Perry]

I hope that today is a good day. And if it's not a good day, then I hope it'll become a better one.

[Preston Perry]

I like your Blameless hat.

[Jackie Perry]

Thanks.

[Preston Perry]

Who made that hat?

[Jackie Perry]

You forgot about that. Fold apparel, technically, but Lincoln show note.

[Preston Perry]

It's a nice head shout out to Blameless. It's a great album. I appreciate that and a great concert.

[Jackie Perry]

Thank you.

[Preston Perry]

Jackie just did her first concert, rap concert in some years. And it was a time. It was a time we had a time.

[Jackie Perry]

It was fun.

[Preston Perry]

It was fun, yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Stressful. Exhausting.

[Preston Perry]

I was so proud as your husband, seeing my introverted wife up there. And you did a little shimmy. I was like, look at her doing a little shimmy. Moving. You know what I'm saying?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I see you.

[Jackie Perry]

I feel uncomfortable.

[Preston Perry]

You feel uncomfortable?

[Jackie Perry]

A little bit.

[Preston Perry]

I reminded you of your little shimmy.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, a little.

[Preston Perry]

I said, okay. She feeling. She getting out the little shell a little bit.

[Jackie Perry]

No, I genuinely prayed freedom and joy.

[Preston Perry]

No, but it was.

[Jackie Perry]

And so I think I experienced that.

[Preston Perry]

It was great. It was a great concert.

[Jackie Perry]

The sound wasn't the greatest. The venue was a little unhelpful, but

[Preston Perry]

sound wasn't great to see you, but in the house, it sounded amazing, man. That's typically how it goes.

[Jackie Perry]

Well, you know, leadership as identity, we have with us Dr. Crawford Loritz. How are you, sir?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I'm doing well. Doing very well.

[Preston Perry]

It's an honor to have you, sir, on the couch. I might call you Brian.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Cause I talk to your son more often than I talk to you. Both of you guys are brilliant. But, yeah, it's an honor to have you on our couch.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

He's brilliant. I just. My dad would say when he saw his grandkids, how well they did, he would say, it skipped a generation.

[Jackie Perry]

Dr. Luritz is just wise in a really special way. I had a seminary class. I think it was summertime, maybe wintertime. And it was like a week long, intensive on the subject of leadership. And I think, one. I think I was coming home all the time, processing what I was learning with you. Because one, it felt like I was hearing a lot of lived experience mixed with obviously, like, theological depth. But it also felt like prophetic at moments, which can be rare in seminary spaces, where it would be moments where it genuinely felt like the Holy Spirit was speaking through you, which would scare me sometimes. I'm like, I didn't think I would be so provoked and challenged and encouraged and inspired. And I was sharing with Dr. Luritz, like, that class really was a paradigm shift for me when it came to how I understood leadership in just so many ways. I kept putting it on my Instagram live, not my live, on my stories. And people kept saying, like, I want to hear the whole class. I'm like, you got to read the book. The whole thing is in the book. And so we just want to have a conversation about leadership as identity and all that you've learned and all that.

[Preston Perry]

Speaking of the book, this is the book we're referring to, Leadership as identity.

[Jackie Perry]

Did you dress like that on purpose?

[Preston Perry]

I did not. But, you know, it's working.

[Jackie Perry]

Cause it's giving.

[Preston Perry]

It's giving intentional, but it wasn't intentional. Great book. Great cover.

[Jackie Perry]

When did you. This is a weird question, but I guess when did you start or feel called to leadership, and how was it like embracing that?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Well, you know, looking back over your life, it was more organic than anything else. A lot of it has to do with my personality. I think just growing up, there's some natural things. My dad was a great leader. You know, I was no head of anything, but just a great, great leader. And I think so. You know, just growing up, people tended to gravitate toward, you know, what I was saying or doing or that kind of thing. But it wasn't, I guess, in my teen years especially, it took off. I gave my heart to Jesus when I was 13 and a half years old. And I believe in spiritual gifts. I think everybody, if you're living, you do have the functions and tasks of leadership. That's true. But I think that there are certain gifts, and for whatever reason, reason I. You know, the Lord would just orchestrate opportunities and platforms for me to. I saw things and stepped in to exercise them and that kind of thing. So I'd say it all came together when I was in my teen years, and then I began to realize it, and then positions of leadership. I was president of classes in college and things like that, and that just came. But with it came a warning, though. However, I learned early on that you got to be careful of orchestrating your own opportunities. You know the old line that my mother used to say, good meat makes its own gravy? Well, you need to not concentrate on making the gravy. You need to concentrate on being a good piece of meat. And it's in that. And that's really the development. Your gifts are most developed when you focus on your character and your godliness. Because the anointing is on the person, not on the performance, not on the platform, it's the individual. And I think my walk with God helped me to appreciate that and some failures along the way. And I tried to do it in my own strength. You know, they say experience ain't always the best teacher, but it is the only school a fool will attend. So, you know, for sure learning that stuff. So, I mean, you didn't ask me all that, but that's out.

[Jackie Perry]

No, we want to hear everything you have to say.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, you talked about, you know, giving your life to the Lord when you was 13 and getting opportunities to be leaders when you were younger. But you talk about some of the leaders that you had that helped developed you as you grew and how instrumental their leadership was. We know every good leader has to be led, right?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, Preston, that's a great question. And I feel a huge indebtedness right now at this stage of my life. I look back over my life. I'm the product of people who saw things that I didn't see it myself. I mean, my pastor, I went to a tiny church. I mean, like, Good Sunday was like 50 people, 60 people there. My pastor was bi vocational, but, boy, he believed in young people. I started preaching when I was 16 years old because he saw things in me. Now. I wouldn't listen to anything I had to say until I was in my 20s, but he believed in me, and that marked me. And each step along my development, God would send people into my life to help prepare for the next. The next level. So. And I think what. What that did in me, and of course, I had seasons in which I battled with. I battled with entitlement and arrogance and this kind of thing. The platform was too big for me and all this stuff. But I think what kept me anchored was realizing that, you know, I'm the extension of the trust of other people. And that anchored me a bit. And so I think, you know, the hyper individualism that's in our culture today is a little sickening, I think. And that. And that creates. That creates an incubator for arrogance that's out of control, just completely out of control. Then you add social media to all of that, then we all think that we're as good as the way God uses us, which is never the truth. And so other people in my life who nobody knows but who sacrificed, keeps me a little grounded when I get beside myself. And also what I'm doing right now is pouring into the next generation. It's a great deal of joy. That's good.

[Preston Perry]

That's good. That's real good.

[Jackie Perry]

I Think identifying leadership is interesting because I think there has to be some type of wise metric for what those traits are, because I think even with me and Preston, I never necessarily saw myself as a leader. I just was me. And I think our pastor Brian, he was probably the first. Well, no. Yeah. As soon as I got. Yeah, I forgot about that when I became a Christian at 19. I'm not saying it was wise. They made me the youth leader maybe a month later, and I was just like, I don't actually know what I'm doing, but apparently y' all see something in me. And then I moved to Chicago, and then Brian would put me in these positions that felt too big for me and too large for me, but he saw something in me. And I remember one of the first things that Brian said to me that has stayed with me is that he wanted me to. I was a leader, over 35 mentors, and I'm like, 24. It was a non for profit organization, and he wanted me to interact with him. You know, after like a meeting or something. I was like, I don't want to. And he was like, that. That's your job. I was like, I don't. I was like, I don't want to talk to them. The meeting is over. And he was like, jackie, do you know what leadership is? I was like, I don't know. He was like, it means you die first. He was like, so you can't be communicating to them about humility and service and you not do it. I said, now, I didn't know that that was what I signed up for. I thought I signed up to tell people what to do. The story of Easter is the most beautiful story ever told. But sometimes, because we know it so well, we know that Jesus died and rose and all the things, we just move past it too quick and we forget what it actually costs. So what if this year you slowed down? If the Tree Could Speak invites you to experience the Crucifixion from a perspective that no one has ever heard, which is from the cross itself. Written by Tim Tebow, it is beautifully illustrated, and every page invites you to pause and reflect and feel the weight of that moment. It's a way to experience Easter differently, intentionally, thoughtfully, and with a fresh perspective. Even if you heard the story a hundred times, even if you heard it twice, this book will help you see it with fresh eyes. What you get from this book will stick with you long after you put it down. And you'll want to pick it back up year after year as you prepare to Celebrate Resurrection Sunday.

[Preston Perry]

I personally think that this concept is dope. Seeing the cross and the crucifixion from a different angle, I think would allow us to see things that we never saw before in the text. And so I love this type of personification. And I say kudos to Tim Tebow for writing. I think the body of Christ needs a new perspective and a fresh perspective.

[Jackie Perry]

So step inside the story of the crucifixion, hear the witness, and experience Easter like never before. With if the Tree Could Speak, available on Amazon. We encourage you to check it out. It's if the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow, available on Amazon or see the link in the show notes. I say all that to say, what is the metric you use to determine actual leadership gifts? Because it can't just be that you're bossy.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That's exactly right. But I want to take a step back before that.

[Jackie Perry]

Take us back.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I think that this is going to sound crazy because we're talking about leadership, but I actually think we've made too much of leadership, meaning that we focus on leadership as if it's better than other gifts or it's more valuable than other gifts. I think we need to follow the pattern of Jesus in the New Testament. You make disciples and then you appoint leaders. I think the idea is allowing the character to form a bit and seeing the responsiveness to the Lord in their lives and seeing their desires get realigned. And it's from that that leadership emerges. See, Jackie, they saw something in you when you were 19. He saw something in you. It emerged. And I think that's the reason why it's more art than science. And I tell these people all the time, I think it's a tad bit arrogant for any grad school or seminary, this kind of thing, to put on their, you know, the website or whatever it is that, well, we produce leaders. That's a lie. Nobody's ever produced a leader. Nobody's ever produced a leader. You can identify it, you can help develop it, but you're not going to produce it.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

God will produce the leadership. And so particularly Christian leadership. It's all about gifting, anointing, his favor and opportunity. Now, the way it manifests itself, Leaders have a tendency toward solution and movement. That brand that is typically solution and movement, keeping things going. They live in the verb. Position managers are very important, but their tendency is the orderly implementation of process.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

How to do something better. Leaders are driven by what and why, what and why, what and why, what and why. And sometimes they can't always articulate the why, but there's this intuitive sense that we ought to or we have to. So looking back, that's what I look for in terms of people that maybe want me to mentor them or this kind of thing. I want to see if they're aggressive followers, if they are aggressive followers, meaning that they will make changes to get what they really need or want. That's an indication to me that maybe they have something in them that calls a leadership. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Hmm. That's really good.

[Jackie Perry]

Got your wheels turning.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. The what and why. I kind of want to explore that a little bit, because. Are you saying that a good leader is not just someone who knows information, but one who has conviction?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Absolutely. Preston, I think you just nailed it. And that. That a leader. Leadership in the Bible means nothing apart from assignment. You lead for something. Leadership in the Bible is never a position. Now, there are positions of leadership, but the position is defined by clarity. It's defined by clarity. It's the why. And so you lead because you feel something deeply. There's a stewardship that rises up in you, and that sometimes is hard to articulate that this has to be done. And so when God calls a Moses or he calls a Paul or whatever, clarity precedes courage. You're courageous for something, you're leading for something. And so that's the signature of leadership.

[Preston Perry]

That's really good.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

And that's the reason why, if you're a spiritual leader, people are waiting for you to hear from God. Leadership is not just about the stewardship of good ideas, but what needs to be done during this moment in history. And so that's what I mean by the what and the why. And sometimes leaders can't always articulate the why up front, but they feel something so deeply that they move with it.

[Preston Perry]

That's really good.

[Jackie Perry]

Sounds like you.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. He in my business a little bit. Yeah. This is really good. This is really good. I don't. I have so many ways I want to go. My mind is going. I'll say this. So the same pastor that Jackie was just talking about, shout out to Brian Dye. Brian Dye. I think you know Brian Dye.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yes.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Brian Dye had the Legacy conference for all those years in Chicago. We all connected. That same pastor soft some stuff in me where he put me over the evangelism team of the conference, and I had to, like, lead this national conference in evangelism. And I was terrified. And one of the reasons why I was terrified of being the evangelistic leader is because this conference was a national conference. And A lot of people at this conference knew way more information than I did. Just honestly, I was just like, there's so many brilliant people here. I asked Brian why. Why me? Right? And he encouraged me and told me I'm the man for the job. But I want to talk about the flip side of that because I think a lot of times in our society we make anybody leaders who have a communication gift, who know how to exegete scripture, or if they just are communicating, we automatically make them pastors, you know what I'm saying? And so can you talk about that and maybe the dangers or some of the things you see why that's problematic or if that's problematic at all?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, you know, I think the way you phrase the question is the answer to the question too, isn't it? The insight is that, you know, you don't grab a person because they are available or because they want to do something. I can tell you the number of people that I've taught preaching in some of these seminaries as a visiting professor, and some of the students who want to be pastors, who want to be preachers haven't been called to preach. They just have a desire to do it. And just to have a desire to do something does not necessarily mean that you're gifted to do it. And so it takes insight, it takes. There's got to be the evidence of fruit, there's got to be the evidence of affirmation from spiritual leaders around you, you know, And I think when you get those things together, then that's when you start giving people platform and opportunity. And this kind of thing, the worst thing in the world is it gives someone with a desire to do something, but they don't have the gifting to do it a position at best, they're gonna be C minus at it at best, but most of the time it's gonna be D minus and F plus. It's just that I think we make too many assumptions about that. And.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's good.

[Jackie Perry]

What that reminds me of is like when I've had to curate conferences or experiences, I've made the mistake of putting people in positions that were willing but not able. And it usually came from a place of desperation where there's a lack. And I'm like that. You, you love the Lord, you can fill the role, but it complicates things, it makes it worse. And now I gotta have a hard convers and all the things, I guess, how do you. What is the wisdom when you. You are in a position where you have to get something done. You don't seem to have the resources to do it. And you got the people raising their hand, but it's like, ah, you know. Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Sometimes it all depends what it is. I mean, we've, you know, this sounds. All of this stuff sounds nice and cut and clean. On a podcast when we're talking to people, it's messier than that, Right?

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I've planted churches before, and sometimes, you know, you got to go with what you got, but at the same time, you're looking to see what emerges. So I wouldn't. Pete. It all depends on what you're asking them to do. I mean, if it's some menial task, and I shouldn't say that that sounds condescending, but it's something that is not, you know, you just have to do it, then it's got to get done. However, if it's a leadership position in which you're in charge of people, there's a gifting that's required that you got to be careful of. Sometimes it's better to go without then to get someone that's insecure, highly threatened, not gifted. But you give them that platform, now you got a problem. You got a big problem. Because they're going to lob a lot of grenades in if we. When you tell them it's time to move on or this kind of thing, because it's core to who they are. And this. That became their surrogate identity. And you gotta unravel everything. So, you know, that's just the way it is.

[Jackie Perry]

Identity. Go ahead.

[Preston Perry]

Oh, that's so good. I love the way you phrase things as word people. As word people. Poets and writers. Writers. We love that.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah, you would done great on. What was the thing called? Twitter. Was you on Twitter?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, but nevermind. That's a. We can get sidetracked.

[Preston Perry]

You had to get off Twitter too, huh? Did you get off Twitter?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

You know, I had a problem with, you know, Matt, I got a new phone and they weren't working right. And then I said, I really don't want to be on this anyway, you

[Jackie Perry]

know, so I'm just saying your words are tweet, tweeterful. I hope y' all are making time for your annual checkups. I hope y' all are going to the doctor, especially you men. I hope y' all are your labs and your blood work.

[Preston Perry]

Why do men only women, too?

[Jackie Perry]

Because statistically, y' all don't go to doctors.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That's a good point.

[Jackie Perry]

That's why y' all die early.

[Preston Perry]

That's A good point.

[Jackie Perry]

So for us, we have kids, so I prefer if this one and me stay healthy for them. Even though people, humans don't look forward to an annual checkup. I understand, I empathize. But what you do before your appointment does matter. So before your next checkup, you could just make one health change that your doctor would notice or you get your money back. I would say you should make it field of greens. Doctors today look beyond calendar age. They look at what we call biological age. How healthy your your cells are and your vital organs are. And field of greens was designed with that in mind. Each fruit and vegetable is doctor selected to support your cells, your heart, your lungs, your kidneys and healthy weight.

[Preston Perry]

What I've learned the last couple of years is your gut health informs your whole body. If your gut is not healthy, your body is not healthy. And let's be real, it is easier to drive into a fast food joint than it is to eat fruit and vegetables. And so this is the reason why I think field of greens is so important and why I use it. Because when you need that vegetable intake, it's so easy to put it in a cup and drink all of the stuff that you need for your body to stay healthy.

[Jackie Perry]

So going to your next physical, your next checkup, your next labs with confidence, one scoop once a day. Done. Make field of greens your one smart change this year. You could check out the university study and get 20% off at field of greens.com promo code Perry. That's field of greens.com promo code perry.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Speaking of words, in your book you have this alliteration that I like. It's learning, leaving and leveraging. Yes, yes, break that down.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah. So now this is the upgraded, what do you call that when you.

[Jackie Perry]

Expanded edition.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, yeah, whatever. I felt like I needed to help. It would be helpful for us particularly if you're in that 20 to 40 year segment in your life. It's good to stand back and look at your life. I think all of life, particularly in ministry, but all of life can be viewed through the lens of three 20 year periods. Now I'm nervous saying that right now because if you know me, I'm averse to typecasting people I think, you know, you end up with. But then you get these self fulfilled prophecy and stuff and you know, not. But, but I do think this is fairly accurate. And from 20 to 40 is that season of learning. And I don't mean that God's not using you in a very significant way. He is, I think of, you know, I had all kinds of leadership positions when I was in my 20s and 30s and what have you. However, the thing that you have to, you have to remember, it's during that time that most of us are obsessed with self actualization. Who am I?

[Preston Perry]

Who am I?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Who am, who am I? This kind of thing. And in recent years, there's a little bit of complication that's layered with that too, with social media and with Google and all of that stuff. I mean, you know, you can Google anything and you can make the dastardly assumption that exposure is the same thing as experience. And because you have this voluminous amount of information just flying through your head, you can figure it all out. You make the. And it rolls off your tongue. You actually think that you have vicariously experienced everything you know as a false sense of wisdom. And whereas, you know, you can Google knowledge, but you can't Google wisdom. Wisdom is the product of an endurance ride. And the most important lesson between 20 to 40 is to finish something, to finish something, to face hard, because hard produces resilience. Hard tests your knowledge and translates that into wisdom. And you can't run from it.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

You've got to embrace it. Then when you hit around the, oh, you know, again, I don't want to typecast. You get in your late 20s, and I mean your late 30s, around 40ish, you wake up one morning, you look inside the mirror and say, you know, I've gotten a snot knocked out of me, but I'm still standing. You know, I've got some bruises and knocks and this kind of thing. And your decisions begin to morph into a nuanced wisdom. You're not as brittle and frail as you used to be. There's a delightful toughness that is set in, and I mean it that way. A delightful toughness.

[Preston Perry]

You did it again. Delightful toughness.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, I'm gonna put it in the program that's in. And then also, what should have happened or should happen, should have happened in your 20s, 20 to 40, is that you developed a healthy distance between how God uses you and your personhood. In other words, you don't take everything personally. And so it's at this time, I call that the leveraging season of your life. You tend to be more fruitful. Now, the danger, however, during that time, the danger is that you can start. You know how to do things. If you're a preacher, you've learned how to package a message You've learned how to communicate. You learn what works and all of this other kind of stuff. You can get sucked back into thinking that you are what you do, and that can create some problems there. You got to watch your. You can make assumptions about your marriage, and you can get married to what you're all about and all of that stuff. And there are landmines that you have to walk through there. And then, you know, then when you start getting your late 50s or so, around 60, you realize you got more out of rearview mirror than you do in front of you, right? And you should make a delightful shift into legacy building in terms of, you know, what's noble by that point. You know, the difference between a trend and a fad. You know, you know, the difference between. And you understand that the rudderless pursuit of relevance will make you irrelevant, but what makes you enduringly relevant is a passion for the noble. What was right 2000 years ago and what will be right when the wardrobe changes. He's talking about my son, Brian. You know, just remember this. Forgive my little ADD here, but it does relate, I think. Brian, you know, I'm older now, right? You know, I'm 76, and so I still get asked to speak at younger stuff. And I'd say to myself, you were always that passion.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I said to myself, do these people know how old I am? I'm old as dirt, man. So there for a while. A couple years ago, I was asking Brian, I don't even know what to wear anymore. You know, what do I wear? I said, you know, I can't be wearing no skinny jeans. You know, some things you just can't unsee. Right? I can't do that. He got so tired of me asking them. So one day I called and I said, brian, you know, I've got this thing they want me to speak at. What do I wear? He said, dad, stop. Just stop it. Look, man, you're old. Just do you. And they'll understand. What he was saying was, it ain't the package, it's the content. And that's what happens when you get close to. It should happen when you get close to 60. But the worst thing in the world is to see older dudes holding on to something that they have to let go. They ought to let go joyfully and turn around and become cheerleaders for the next generation. That's good to help them and give them standing ovations, put your arm around them, open doors for them, stop competing with them, and let them be who they need to be. So I wrote those, I put that in the book to say, okay, there are seasons of your life and you just have to learn how to adjust to those seasons. And by the way, that also is a key to effective leadership. Leadership is about change. If you do not change, you'll kill what you're leading. Wow.

[Preston Perry]

And know how to adapt to the change.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That's exactly right.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

And understanding when your season is up.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's real good.

[Jackie Perry]

I think one of a really useful frame you offer in these discussions and even I've watched you have sermons about it that like are independent from the leadership conversation. But just about brokenness.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Cause I imagine that between 20 and 70 and on there are seasons of brokenness. Can you talk to us about that?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah. Oh yeah. You have to embrace the reality that you need holy handicaps to keep you dependent upon God. You have to. God does not do double billing. He does not exist to pad your resume, to sustain your brand or whatever. It's all about him. And so he has to send you through these seasons of brokenness where I hope I'm not misunderstood here, where desperation becomes a delightful friend. I didn't say despair. Despair is hopelessness. Desperation is a wonderful sense of God neediness. But you only learn that in the darkness. We had a daughter that died and, and I mean when there's, there's a two year season and early on in our marriage all this stuff just went wrong and the pain that was there. And yet out of those two years there's some, there's some defining convictions that God gave Karen to myself and where, where needing God was not a hobby, it was your existence. It was your existence. And so brokenness, I don't mean woundedness by the way. And by the way, let me just make the distinction. And you heard me in the class talk about that. I think we pass off woundedness as brokenness and that is not biblical brokenness. Woundedness is unhealthy. It's, you know, you can be wound, you can be wounded without having been broken, but you can't be broken without having been wounded. Wounded people have a tendency to celebrate the hurt and the pain and they want everybody to know that they've been hurt and their pain. And they sanitize that by saying they're wounded, they're broken and this kind of thing. Well, if you are the thesis of that, then you have not been broken. Brokenness, they've been wounded, but they celebrate how God has met them at their point of pain. It's Not a statement of perfection. You may still wrestle with the pain, but the subject of the sentence is God. It's not you.

[Preston Perry]

That's really good.

[Jackie Perry]

I mean, I want to lean into the desperation of it all, because even we just had a conversation with Matt Chandler and just talk. Talking about how it is the difficulties, it is the hardships. But it does seem like brokenness can be. It's not like. I don't know how to say, like, it can be an intense season.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Where it.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

It.

[Jackie Perry]

How does somebody learn to not fight against it when they're in it?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I know this is a circular response. You learn how not to fight against it by fight against, fighting against it and losing.

[Jackie Perry]

I got it

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

by being frustrated. Frustrated to the point where you say, I yield. I yield. You know, and you gotta, you gotta. You gotta trust God.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

In the moment. In the moment. Each step of the way. And, you know, and God has his. I mean, he's got his. His eye on the clock and his hand on the thermostat. He knows how much, but he. He's got to get through. With you in this one season, you got to learn some things and, and you don't. Don't try to bail yourself out prematurely. Don't try to name and claim yourself out of the situation. You got to stay there and trust that God's going to deliver you. You. You have to learn how to enjoy God in that moment. You know, it's a cliche, but I actually think that in our. Everything happens like that culture, we have to really embrace the reality that faith has three dimensions, that God will deliver us from it. He'll deliver us through it, but sometimes he won't change the circumstances, but deliver us in it. But you got to be okay with whatever God wants to do. And it's. When you're at that point, that's when it. That. That's when there's a sense of. There's a sense. Okay, this is becoming me, that the background music of my heart and life is I need thee. Oh, I need thee Every hour I need thee. And somebody said, they asked me an awful lot about, you know, do you ever struggle with your personal devotional life? And I said, well, yeah, I mean, I, you know, you struggle with a lot of stuff. I got, I got a lot of. I got latent add. My wife says sometimes it ain't so latent, but, you know, so you go back and forth with stuff. But I'd say the older I get, the less I struggle with that. That's not a Statement of perfection. It's a statement of the reality of what I have been through. That I know, I know, I know, I know that I'll be a royal screw up and that I need him every hour. I can't make it without his word. I can't make it without talking to him. That I'm just a quarter inch away from stupid in any given moment. And once that becomes not just a cliche, but a heart reality, that's when brokenness has transitioned to a delightful gift of desperation. Wow.

[Preston Perry]

Good.

[Jackie Perry]

Wow.

[Preston Perry]

Oh man. So you got my brain going, I guess still in this vein of brokenness. I've been reading a lot about Peter because I see myself in him a lot. My old disciple of Brian Dye, he used to always say I remind him of Peter. But I've been seeing myself a lot in Peter. And just reading John 21, John 2019, all of these scriptures about Peter. Later on in Jesus earthly ministry, when he was about to die, Peter made some bold claims, right? We all know, like when Jesus said, y' all all will fall away from. And Peter was like, no, no, Jesus, I'll follow you both to prison and to the grave. You know, if they all fall away, I would never fall away. And I started to think about these bold claims that Peter made. And I started to ask myself, like, why? And one of the things, the text doesn't say this, but one of the things I did think about as it relates to Peter, because Peter was a leader, maybe he felt some type of obligation to be strong and not to be weak, right? Not to. Not to. Not to show brokenness or weakness. And I think a lot of times as leaders that can be a scary thing for us to show weakness to the people there because he was. Peter was a leader amongst the disciples, right. In a sense. And so can you speak to the leader out there who feels this pressure to not necessarily be perfect, but not to. It's almost scary for them to be broken because they feel like this obligation to be strong for the people around them. Them, if that makes sense.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

You know, Preston, that's an intriguing insight you have about Peter. I never quite thought of it that way, that actually Peter's natural leadership, natural leadership bent caused him to make the right statement without the right dependence. He was depending upon himself rather than. But he met what he said was right. I mean, it was a truthful thing that he said. It was, it was. Well, it was an aspirational statement that he made, but he didn't have what it took to really sustain that.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, and this rabbi just happened to be God who knew his heart more than he knew.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That's exactly right. That's exactly.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Which you ought to preach a message on that man. That's.

[Jackie Perry]

You got one.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I just wrote it. I just wrote a sermon on it.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Is that all right? Well, I need to listen to that, brother. That'll be work. It might end up in a classroom someplace. But you know, I, I think you're absolutely right. And that's the reason why, particularly those of us who have both natural person and personality, natural tendencies toward leadership, sometimes, you know, we're a little bit more self reliant than we should be because we can make accurate observations and this kind of thing. But who are you really trusting?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Who you really trust. And it's not sustainable. And that's the reason why when Peter gets Jesus, puts him back together, he puts them back together. Peter now has what he needs to die for. The Savior.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

And that's where our strength is, you know, that's what it's all about. So. Yeah, I mean that's, that's an amazing observation.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

But again, there's another thing with Peter too. I think sometimes our boasting is more of a reaction to our fear.

[Preston Perry]

Break that down.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Well, as soon as he denies Jesus, I mean, as soon as he makes that statement, he denies Jesus. Not only does he deny Jesus, he throws the disciples under the bus. I'm not one of them. And not only that, he throws, he throws his heritage under the bus. I'm not a Galilean. No, you didn't see me down there. Yeah, I mean, he is scared spitless. So empty claims without substance, without a connectedness. And so that, that fear and. But you know, I often make this observation that fear is necessary even for godliness. It's not the absence of fear, it's the direction of your fear. Fear. If you fear God more than you do people, you always come out courageous. But if you fear people, you're going to make bogus statements. You're in cave every single time, ultimately speaking. So I don't know how that's a bunny trail, but yeah, you're forcing me to look at Peter's life here.

[Preston Perry]

That's good, that's good.

[Jackie Perry]

You got more.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I mean, you can go.

[Jackie Perry]

No, I kind of was intrigued by that, you mentioning pressure and just how I imagine just as husbands and as leaders, as fathers, that that comes with some level of pressure.

[Preston Perry]

It does.

[Jackie Perry]

And so I guess I kind of want to hear from y' all how y' all process that.

[Preston Perry]

This man got a mountain of wisdom.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

You know, if my wife was here, she would say the most secure she feels ever is when she sees me on my knees with an open Bible. Perfection is not the goal. But again, it gets back to this whole dependence thing, right? And I think as fathers, as husbands and stuff, you know, don't get me wrong. I mean, you know, I'm not. I'm pretty strong and pretty resilient about criticisms and things like that. You know, you don't pass a whole bunch of people without having a little bit of a thick skin and all of that. But anything having to do with my wife and my kids, you got my attention. Or my grandkids. Now you got my attention. Right. I typically, you know, don't play them games. No, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I remember one time a guy that was working on my team when in another situation, my wife was over some type of. She has great administrative abilities and this kind of. She was over. There's a national conference. We were doing something. He was reporting to her. Well, he came to my office, and after our meeting, he said, crawford, I got a problem with your wife. I said, no, you need to rephrase that. No doubt.

[Jackie Perry]

That's a crazy way to.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, you need to rephrase that, because you got a problem with her, you got a problem with me. You don't want to have a problem with me. But I think we feel. Yeah, that's right. We feel those. We feel that. Yeah, we feel that. And I think appropriately so. But it's what we do with those feelings. If it drives us to our knees to. Drives us to go back to the scriptures, if it drives us to an appropriate sense of biblical courage and dependence upon the spirit of God to. To lovingly lead our wives and to lovingly model the destination for our kids and to step into those hard spaces, then that's a blessing. But if you're not depending upon God, then you're gonna be a carnal mess. You're gonna melt down. You're not gonna be. You're gonna go back to, you know, you're gonna inflate the dysfunction even in our backgrounds. And this kind of thing, you're gonna be reacting to one another and what have you, but it's a place of dependence.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah. And so that's how I. I mean, I handle the pressure there and then the constant communication. You know, we're not the fourth members of the Trinity, man. And we. We're imperfect people.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. If I'm just being honest. I mean, when I first got married, I, I talked about this before in our podcast. I just so desperately wanted to be a, a good leader. I, I, I pushed Jackie too much. I pushed myself too much. I was very hard on. And when I started to learn to trust in the Lord, I think the Lord started to grow me, grow me in my leadership. And I thought, you know, early on I was like, okay, I got over that hump. Now I can just live my life. But what I've, but what I've learned is crazy. But what I've learned is even in different seasons of marriage, you're gonna have to relearn how to be a leader in a whole different way when your daughter gets older. And it's like, I have to learn how to lead you in a whole different way. I have to, to learn patience in a whole different way. And so it's just crazy how the Lord kind of orchestrates this life for you to have that. You just always have to be dependent. It's like I always have to be dependent in order to lead. Like, it's not like you learn one thing and it helps you for the rest of your life. It's like an ongoing, consistent consistency in learning, you know, how to be dependent on the Lord. And it can be frustrating, but it's fruitful.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

And that's what you bring to the table, right? I mean, it's this ongoing process. You know, it's just kind of like, I mean, I'm an empty, we're empty nesters now. So, you know, even now, I mean, but you learn how to be more gracious. I mean, the stuff that my wife used to try to take me on over, she just looks at me and says, that's just Crawford being Crawford, you know, or whatever. But never underestimate the power of humility and the courage to say I'm wrong and the power of your repentance. I was listening to my son Brian on the podcast. Well, he wrote a book about my impact on his life. And there's another story. He writes his book. His mother knew that he was writing a book and I didn't know he was writing a book. And so then the publisher calls me and asks me to write the floor of the book. I said, what's the book about? He said, well, it's about your impact on Brian. I said, said, it's about me and you want me to write the floor. It's a little self serving, isn't it? Say how great thou art. I mean, it's kind of. And so I called that knucklehead. I said, man, I. I know you write. I don't know what stories you told in this book, first of all. So I had to read the whole thing. So he was being interviewed about this book. And then he. And when I was, I heard him say this, I. I started to weep. He said, I remember my dad's apologies more than I do his sins. And I think as fathers and as men, that's counterintuitive for us. But I think the transparency of modeling to your family what you do when you screw up your own sense of God, neediness, God works from weakness to strength, not from strength to strength. And I think it's the acknowledging of that. I know that's counterintuitive, but it's the acknowledging of that that creates a bond. Now, you don't excuse it. You know, I mean, kids will say, well, dad, dad, I'm sorry. So I don't need to get a spanking now. You need to remember this. And I appreciate your apology, but, you know, moving on down the road.

[Preston Perry]

So, yeah, yeah, I've had to learn that as well. Cause I think it's not to throw my dad under the bus. But I didn't really get no apologies from him, you know, And I've tried to kind of correct that in my fathering. Because I think when we think about the gospel, how God condescended to become a man to relate to our humanity, I think that's what apologizing does. And I think that's probably why he remembered it, because he saw your humanity. And like a lot of times when we were leaders, we forget that our leaders are also human. And so because we forget they are human, I think it's hard for us to relate to them and to, like. For us even to empathize with them or be on the same, like, for that connection to happen. And I think it's something beautiful that happens when a leader apologizes. Because it's a leader coming down and kind of meeting where you are, like, I'm a leader, but I'm still human as well. And so I think it's great for connection.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I also want to say, though, too, that apologies are meant to be the gateway to repentance. And it's. To just apologize without making the adjustment to change is not only disingenuous, it's hypocritical and becomes. I mean, we've all seen people say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, it's just to get you off my back or whatever, but I think as long as that's anchored in what we're doing and it becomes a gateway of changing. And that's why God gives us family, right. He gives us family as a primary means of sanctification to make us holy. And conflict. This sounds crazy, but conflict can be a gift from God, depending on how you respond to it, what you do with it, and this kind of thing, and if it causes us to keep moving. So. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Have there ever been. Oh, you had a question? Have there ever been seasons in your life where you was just like, I don't want to be a leader?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Oh, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

And like, what does that look like? Because leadership can be exhausting. Yes, it can be. It can wear on your heart.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yep.

[Preston Perry]

To be quite frank, you could just feel abused.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Absolutely.

[Preston Perry]

And so speak to the people who feel like I've been a leader and I've just like. I just feel like God just want me to be beat up all day.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah. Yes. I mean, yes, there were times when I didn't want to be a father. Yeah. Especially knucklehead teenagers, man. So, you know, boy, you done lost your mind. I mean, it's kind of all this. I can tell you stories. I mean, there are times in which, you know, season. Which Karen didn't like me too much. I didn't like her too much. We love each other, but, you know, so I don't. This Pollyanna thing. And you look at all the great leaders. There are seasons in which they were catching it, Jack. I mean, you know, Paul getting the crap beat out of him, people turning on him, you know, Moses, all that stuff. I mean, Moses striking the rock instead of speaking to the rock. And I thought, God, you know, every time I read that passage, oh, God, man, that's a little cold blooded, man. I had done some crazy stuff with these people a long time ago. So that's all a part of it. In fact, really biblical leadership really demonstrates itself sometimes just through that. You stick around long enough to stick and it's. There's no affirmation there. None of that stuff. It's hard. It's. It's just difficult. So. Yeah, but that's part of it. Yeah, that's a part. You know, people will give you awards for what you accomplish, Right? They'll give you awards. I mean, for. They'll give you award stand, ovation, all that kind of stuff they give you, but they only truly honor you. Think about this for what you sacrifice. They Only truly honor you for what you sacrifice. And I think sacrifice and leadership go together. They really do, because you have, by the grace of God, proved that you're worth following. You know, my. My dad. My dad, you know, he. He showed up, man, every day. He worked. The hardest working dude I ever met in my life. And at the end of his life, I mean, near the end of his life, he would be sitting on the front porch. They retired to Virginia, got the big old house with his drop around, poisoning. We'd have his grandchildren there. And all this. You know, the thing he talked about, he talked about the privilege of having been able to work, provide for his family, to buy your daddy his first car. He talked about that it was a badge of honor for his endurance. And that's the honor we get. It's a sweet thing to press through and not quit. And that's, you know, and to me, that's the essence of leadership.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jackie Perry]

What. What comes across, I think, even in this exchange is how Christ like leadership looks, as opposed to, I think the world's definition of leadership, which is conquer, dominate, control rather than serve, die, sacrifice, you know, and so it seems as if even in this discussion, I hear this is what Jesus did.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, yeah, Jackie. And it's. See, leadership in the Bible is fueled and driven by a radical faithfulness. Yeah. Faithfulness is its own marketing strategy, its own brand. And it's not that you're. It's not that you're trying to compete with anybody. It's not about market share. It's not about this or that. It's about doing the best you possibly can for the grace of God, for him and the people that you serve. In fact, I say this in the book. You know, your credibility to lead is in direct proportion to your ability to serve. And leaders do have power, but the power is not cul de sac. You have power. And the reason why. You have power. Your power is given to remove barriers and hindrances from the people that you're serving, for them to be everything that they possibly can be. Your power is given to make sure you identify the banks of the river, what is true and what is right. And you protect them from the wolves.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Well, that's why the power is given. It's never about you.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

And a leader is driven by the reality that what God has for me, no mortal being can take from me. So I don't need to compete nor compare.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I just make it do what it do.

[Preston Perry]

You know, you said it's never about you, but through the years. How, as a leader, how. How have you coped with failure?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Oh, my gosh. Don't like to fail, you know, but it's a part of it. It's a part of it. Without failure, you ride too high in the water. Failure is necessary. And I, you know, you learn. I tell you, I can give you chapter and verses. I remember having this conference where we didn't. The numbers didn't show up, and I had to raise a whole bunch of money after the conference was over and all of this kind of stuff, and I had a little string of successes and stuff. And, you know, you kind of get used to stuff, and then all of a sudden you get this oops, but you own it. You don't make excuses for it.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Failure is the opportunity for Christlike character to shine forth. And it's the opportunity to say to yourself, okay, it's not about me. I made some bad choices and some bad mistakes here. I own it. I own it. And I think coping with failure has to do with not running from it, not hiding from it, not excusing it. Not. Yeah, but. Yeah, but. Or he did or whatever. True leaders own the stuff. In fact, to be honest with you, true leaders will own the failures of the other people and protect them.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. I got more questions, but I just

[Jackie Perry]

want to ask, in your experience, I guess, what do you think is the unique quality present within a woman that's a leader? Just because women, we're built different and so our leadership should look different.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Wow. Yeah. This is when I wish Karen was here because she's a leader, you know, I mean, which has made our life, those early years pretty interesting because, you

[Jackie Perry]

know, tell us about it.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, she. She ain't passive, brother. You know, neither is this one. I know, man. It's like, you know, these young dudes, when I was at the church, we had this residence program. These guys would come after they get out of seminary, spend several months with her. They would say, Dr. Lorenz, does your wife ever give you honest feedback? I said, son, you have no idea. So you know that, you know. But I think it is if God's called your wife to lead or called a woman to lead, she needs to be in a context in which that is served and empowered. And I think women who are in leadership, they bring. My wife brings an intuitive sense that I don't always have, that I've learned to trust. She brings an intuitive sense. She brings a certain high level how to. That I don't always have and so it's standing back and encouraging that and not being intimidated by it that I would say. And I would say that like anything else, just because she's a woman doesn't mean, I think, the ability to ask God to show you the arena and the assignments that you have. And then at the same time, being as, you know, as a husband, I view my role as helping to translate that vision of reality that we are team, we're one. And that oneness means not just oneness in terms of, you know, sexual unity and who we are here, but oneness in terms of calling that it's not a competition, but a completion and understanding that. But then, you know, helping to understand seasons of life and all that stuff. I don't know if I answered that question.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah. It's a dance. Me and Preston are learning still how to navigate because we had our anniversary. What was that? Two weeks ago. And we were at Disney World. And he was just talking about male leadership and how a lot of men have just grown weary with leading their wives. And I was asking the question, do you think that there's a different kind of weariness when you're leading a. A leader? You know, because I have a temperament that is different than someone who just says yes easily. And so I just think it's an interesting discussion.

[Preston Perry]

Yes, it definitely.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I think it requires constant communication.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, it does. It does require constant communication. It requires navigating some things. It requires understanding different personalities. So, you know, Karen was. When we're working together and doing projects and this kind of thing, you know, I got in trouble in the evening. I said, look, we lay down. And she wanted to continue to talk about this thing and that thing. So I said, I don't go to bed with people I work with. That wasn't a good thing to say that evening.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I said it wrong. I'd be putting my foot in my mouth.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

That was bad. Yes, it was bad. Yeah, it was. I didn't know.

[Jackie Perry]

But I think it takes just profound humility to recognize that even if I'm a leader in a particular sphere, my dignity as a woman isn't threatened by his leadership. And I think that's the wrestle is recognizing that God does have a order and that there is safety and wisdom in submission. And I think having a man who loves you and cares for you and wants to see you flourish gives you room and space to even wrestle out loud.

[Preston Perry]

Aw.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Love you.

[Preston Perry]

Buck up.

[Jackie Perry]

He's seasons of brokenness. He's changing me.

[Preston Perry]

Ms. Luritz, speak to the temptation. One leader might have to feel like they're not a good leader when the people around are not following.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Oh, yeah. One of the things, Preston, I'm glad you raised that. One of the cliches that I've been hearing, I've been hearing for over the last few years that, you know, the proof of leadership is followership. You know, I suppose that's true. It all depends if you're on the marketplace and head of some corporation and this kind of thing and you're not hitting your numbers and what have you. Yeah. That ain't true biblically.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That is absolutely, categorically not true biblically.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

In fact, the lion's share of leaders, near the end of their lives, their followers dissipated. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jackie Perry]

That's true.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

They left.

[Jackie Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I mean, Paul's dying. Not only he's in jail, dying, man, but these dudes are pimping off his platform on their dis. You know, all this. I mean, just so. So you. You got to be careful. Moral leadership is not necessarily the measure of moral leadership, and proof of moral leadership is not necessarily visible fruitfulness.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's so good. And I might pick your brain about this because I've been obsessing over this for the last couple of weeks, because my next resource, my next book is on biblical manhood. And I don't know if you know, but in our society right now, especially on social media, there's this new ideology or this new framework that a lot of these secular platforms, these men empowering podcasts, kind of teach this idea that if you do xyz, women will. The right type of woman will automatically fall in line. Almost kind of treats male leadership like this.

[Jackie Perry]

Something like a math equation.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, like a math equation. Or like this magical potion. Like if you. And if you're not this type of man, you're not this type of man. That's the reason why women are not responding to you in this particular way. And as if we're not complex nuance human.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, well, see, that's pragmatism going to seed right there. It's just like. It's a quid pro quo kind of thing, you know? Leadership in the Bible, by the way, is prophetic and incarnational. It's prophetic and incarnational, meaning that a leader is the portrait of the desired destination at which all things need to arrive.

[Jackie Perry]

Write it down.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That is leadership in the Bible. It is not necessarily some little scientific process.

[Preston Perry]

Can you say that one more time?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Leadership in the Bible is prophetic. It's the Destination at which others need to arrive. And so it's incarnational. It's the aspiration to be that. And I would argue. I would argue that to be created in the image of God, let us make man in our image. There is an incarnational aspect to the imago dei.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That. And so as a leader, I'm the portrait of the destination I aspire to be. Now, I'm not perfect or this kind of thing. That's why I'm depending upon God. So it's not just some little quid pro quo thing. It's adjusting to everything that God gives me to steward.

[Preston Perry]

Steward.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

And it's empowering the people around me. And if, if you want somebody to. To bleed, then you got a hemorrhage, Jack. I mean, this is the reason why leadership is courageous. You know, if, if, if you don't want to lead, just get out of the way.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Wow.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

But you own this thing, man.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

I mean, that's that.

[Preston Perry]

You.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

You own it. And to me, that's true. Godly manhood, this other stuff, I mean. Yeah. I mean, a leader is not the loudest person in the room, but the leader is the one who's willing to pay whatever price necessary for his family or others to be what they need to be.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

They'll do whatever they have to do.

[Preston Perry]

That's good. Not forcing people. Leadership is not. What I hear you saying is leadership is not forcing people to go to a particular destination, but it's showing them that there is a destination and this is how we get to it.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That's right. And see, you, you are benchmarking your kids, man. I tell people all the time, they say, I don't want to be no. I ain't leaving no legacy. I said, that's a stupid thing to say. You're going to leave one regardless. Yeah, you're going to leave one. I mean, if you're breathing, going to leave one. The issue is what kind and godly parents. You cannot determine how your kids are going to turn out. I mean, they quote Proverbs all you want to turn child on the way, she goes, oh, shall depart. Well, number one, it's a proverb, not a promise. Right? So under most likely circumstances, generally speaking, this probably will happen. But there's no guarantee. But in the Hebrew there. It's also about proclivities. And so you can't guarantee, but what you can do, you can be the model of the destination. You can set the atmosphere in your home, and you can set the table. And that's what benchmarks the future. And I used to tell our kids all the time, say, y' all go out here and make some stupid decisions. You want to, but don't lay on some Christian counselor's counselor. I didn't know you're gonna be in form center.

[Preston Perry]

That's good. Yeah, bro, that's hilarious. That's good.

[Jackie Perry]

I think we probably cause my mom. If y' all saw me texting, it's cause my mom was asking who picking up the kids. So she's gonna pick up half of em, I gotta pick up the rest. So we gotta wrap up some.

[Preston Perry]

It's real life over here.

[Jackie Perry]

But one thing you've communicated before that has really stuck with me and just kind of been like a framework is the idea of uncommon communion and how I've kind of used it to encourage people about their limitations. A lot of times because people will come and say, hey, God has given me vision for this and God has told me to do this, but I don't feel adequate. I don't feel this, I don't feel that. And I'm like, great, that's awesome. And I quote you because one thing Dr. Lurid says is that God will give you assignments that you don't necessarily have all the resources to fulfill to accelerate your own sanctification.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

That's exactly right.

[Jackie Perry]

Did I say it good?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

You said it excellent.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jackie Perry]

It's in my spirit and my heart. And so can you talk about that?

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah. So listen, there's no such thing as wasted material when it comes to God. Okay? When he gives us an assignment to do, there are at least these three transformative things that are taking place. Number one, the assignment is going to be accomplished. So that's a miracle. Number two, the people involved in. In seeing it happen, their hearts are transformed. But guess what? The leader is changed. So there's always a gap between what God calls you to do and so that you have to press into God to get the resources to translate into reality what he's called you to be about. And so the point is, so on your way to doing something, you become something. And so you shouldn't look at the assignment as a competitor to your time or an anchor. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. People get burnt out. Not necessarily because they're doing too much. You can. That can be the case, but not necessarily because they're doing too much, but because they're doing what God called them to do the wrong way. And they're the self reliance. But it's the spirit of God. That gives you the existential insights and bridges the gaps and gives you what you need. So your inadequacy is a good thing? Yes, it's a good thing. As long as it doesn't paralyze you. As long as it fuels desperation for God, it's a healthy thing.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jackie Perry]

I think that's just a good word for everybody, because I think we want to feel competent before we obey. And oftentimes that's just not gonna be a reality. And so.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

[Jackie Perry]

You got more.

[Preston Perry]

I know. We gotta pick up the kids. I'm gonna hit you on my off time. Cause I need some. I need some more of this wisdom.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Well, I need this Peter thing now. I need to find out how to get that from you.

[Preston Perry]

You know my sermon. I just wrote a sermon on John 21 Peter's restoration. And I might just pick your brain because I want to add to it and kind of tweak it. I've only taught it once, so.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

It's been an honor, man.

[Jackie Perry]

Thank you, Dr. Larit.

[Preston Perry]

Thank you. Show the book one last time.

[Jackie Perry]

There you go.

[Preston Perry]

Leadership as an Identity by Crawford Loritz. Great resource. Go out and get it.

[Jackie Perry]

You got a good name. That's one of them resume names right there. Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

If I could just leave y' all with anything, Pray for Crawford. Loritz is a brilliant guy. Him and his son Brian, Larissa. Brilliant guys. If you just pray for them about one thing. They both kind of act like LeBron James is not the greatest player of this generation. That's the only thing I feel like the Lord got to correct them in. In this stage of life. And so just pray that they get deliverance in that area. But other than that, keep serving the Lord.

[Dr. Crawford Loritz]

Thank you and my grandchildren thank you for selling the book.

[Preston Perry]

Love, y'. All. Peace

[Jackie Perry]

with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by hob. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.