Sex, Sexual Trauma, and God’s Design with Dr. Juli Slattery

Summary

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With The Perrys: "Sex, Sexual Trauma, and God’s Design" (with Dr. Juli Slattery)

Release Date: April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply honest and engaging conversation, hosts Preston Perry and Jackie Hill Perry welcome psychologist and Christian sex educator Dr. Juli Slattery to explore the intersection of sex, sexual trauma, and God’s design for intimacy. Through candid stories, scientific insights, and biblical wisdom, the trio takes listeners through the complexities of sexuality, brokenness, healing, marital expectations, and the transformative, often challenging journey toward vulnerability and intimacy within Christian marriage. The discussion is rich with practical advice, empathy, and a call to bring God into even the most vulnerable parts of our lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Juli Slattery’s Journey into Sexuality Ministry

• Background: Dr. Slattery shares how she became a psychologist with a passion for making God’s word practical, focusing on marriage, family, and women’s issues from a biblical view (04:00–05:00).
• Entering Sexuality Ministry: About 15 years ago, after a spiritually intense season, she founded “Authentic Intimacy” to address pain and brokenness around sexuality in the church (10:44–13:09).

“He began to like literally give me a pain in my chest that just felt heavy... And he just made it really clear... that he was calling me to speak on this topic of sexuality, that there was so much pain and brokenness that the church wasn't acknowledging.”
— Dr. Juli Slattery (11:22)

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2. God’s Design for Sex: More Than Procreation

• Sex as Covenant: Sex is a “living metaphor” for God’s covenant love—depicting intimacy, faithfulness, and commitment between Christ and the Church, not just procreation or pleasure (13:09–15:59).
• Biblical Metaphors: Just as parent-child relationships teach us about God, so does the sexual union between spouses, pointing to spiritual truths (17:09–18:44).

“God created sex to be a living, living metaphor to show us what covenant is and how he loves us with an intimate, faithful covenant love.”
— Dr. Juli Slattery (15:59)

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3. Cultural Distortions and the Power of Sex

• Vandalization of Sex: The world’s perversion and the enemy’s attack on both sex and marriage stem from their power to reveal God’s love.
• Unnatural Understandings: Even in the church, sex is reduced to duty, procreation, or sin-avoidance, missing the deeper beauty of God’s intent (16:17–19:13).
• Entitlement & Emotional Connection: Sex in marriage is often wrongly seen as a right or fix-all, overlooking emotional intimacy and vulnerability as core to the marital sexual bond (19:16–23:13).

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4. Physiology & Gender Differences in Sexuality

• Bonding Hormones: Men and women experience oxytocin, the “bonding hormone,” differently—women get it more often, men primarily after sex, which helps explain why sex feels bonding to men (21:44–22:43).
• Initiating vs. Responsive Desire: A helpful framework is distinguishing between those who initiate desire and those who respond—challenging damaging “high/low libido” labels (28:14–30:01).

“This is something you both want in marriage, you just have a different way of approaching it.”
— Dr. Juli Slattery (29:33)

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5. Dealing with Sexual Trauma and Abuse

• Trauma’s Prevalence: Over half of women and a third of men experience sexual violence—trauma is common and deeply disruptive (30:32–31:04).
• Lasting Impact: Trauma stores “somatic memories,” often triggered in marriage, which can lead to shutdown, dissociation, or re-traumatization if not processed (31:04–33:15).
• Creating Safety: Healing requires identifying triggers, providing agency, and rebuilding intimacy at a gentle pace (31:44–34:06).

“It’s not stored like normal memories... being touched a certain way or a certain smell or sound or sensation that brings a memory and the fear associated with it back.”
— Dr. Juli Slattery (31:15)

• Jackie and Preston openly share their own experiences of abuse, modeling vulnerability and emphasizing the need for safety in marriage (34:06–36:32).

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6. Pornography’s Destructive Influence

• False Narratives: Porn damages both men’s and women’s understandings of themselves and each other—teaching men that women are objects, and vice versa (35:13–36:32).
• Psychological & Spiritual Consequences: Porn fosters shame, inhibits real intimacy, retrains the brain’s sexual response, and can create hidden strongholds even for believers (60:42–62:20).

“They can live their whole life with that secret cloud of shame that keeps us from intimacy with God and receiving his love.”
— Dr. Juli Slattery (62:00)

• Both hosts describe how pornography fostered insecurity, confusion, and self-protective behaviors (33:32–36:32).

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7. Biblical Misinterpretation and Sexual Entitlement

• 1 Corinthians 7 Misused: The command that spouses’ bodies belong to each other is often used wrongly to enforce obligation. Dr. Slattery emphasizes:
  • First, every believer’s body belongs to the Lord.
  • Second, marital sexuality is about mutual ministry and unselfish love, not entitlement (37:31–40:50).

“Your body, your sexuality, belongs to the Lord... Not looking out for your own interests, but to the interests of the other.”
— Dr. Juli Slattery (38:56)

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8. Emotional and Sexual Intimacy: Getting Naked on Every Level

• Beyond Transactional Sex: True intimacy requires both spouses to be emotionally vulnerable, honest, and to pursue each other's hearts—not just bodies (46:40–49:19).
• Selfishness vs. Self-Care: The conversation explores how to navigate legitimate needs alongside the call to lay down selfishness (46:07–48:27).

“Part of what [your husband] needs is to know how to love me. And until I can be vulnerable and vocal about what's going on inside... I'm never calling him to that space.”
— Dr. Juli Slattery (48:12)

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9. Practical Wisdom for Husbands & Wives

• Communication & Pursuit: Men need a vision beyond sexual entitlement—becoming students of their wives' hearts and needs, showing non-transactional affection (51:08–53:46).
• For Women: Christian women are called to pursue understanding their own God-given sexuality, move beyond passivity, and embrace the joy and holiness of sex in marriage (53:47–54:50).
• Purity Culture’s Damage: Purity teaching often made women feel sexuality was shameful or dangerous, contributing to passivity and brokenness (54:50–56:17).

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10. Desire, Expectations & Cultural Lies

• Cultural Messaging: The false ideal that true fulfillment is found in constant sexual gratification is challenged, citing Psalm 37 as a call to trust God’s path rather than envy “evildoers” (69:49–71:12).
• Empathy & Mutual Understanding: Both spouses must learn each other’s vulnerabilities, pressures, and the power dynamics at play in a sex-saturated culture (73:19–74:07).

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11. Inviting God into the Bedroom

• Original Design: Dr. Slattery encourages couples to recognize God’s presence in their sexuality, citing Song of Solomon as evidence that God celebrates marital intimacy (77:29–79:37).
• God as Healer and Redeemer: The conversation closes by challenging listeners to invite God’s healing into their sexual stories, letting Him “reclaim” this part of life from shame, secrecy, and the enemy’s grip (74:40–76:13 / 80:57).

“It’s a spiritual battleground... Why do we ever think we can win a spiritual battle by eliminating God’s presence? It’s by inviting Him.”
— Dr. Juli Slattery (80:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We all learn these ways to cope with the bad stuff in us and the bad stuff we experience in the world... when you bring that up, a lot of what a good therapist is going to do is peel back layers to get you to discover what are your root fears...”
  — Dr. Juli Slattery (05:11)

• “For some reason, we never call Christian married people to self-denial... this isn't about me, it's about learning to love the way God loves me.”
  — Dr. Juli Slattery (36:10)

• “Just because I enjoyed it, doesn’t mean I wasn’t molested.”
  — Preston Perry (42:58)
  (on the confusing feelings around male sexual abuse)

• “Repentance takes courage. To say, ‘this has been a good drug, but not a good drug. Sin is fun until it’s not.’... Giving Him you even in that place, but also being willing to try Him...”
  — Jackie Hill Perry (67:11)

• “I think you want [God] to be there, just because... my mind can be very busy... you want him to push back against the darkness so you can be present with your spouse.”
  — Jackie Hill Perry (79:38)

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Timestamps & Highlights

• Dr. Juli’s background and call to sexuality ministry — 02:04–13:09
• Why did God create sex? — 13:09–16:16
• Sex as metaphor for covenant love — 15:13–19:13
• Physiology, bonding, emotional intimacy — 21:44–23:13
• Initiating vs. responsive desire — 28:14–30:01
• Sexual trauma: impact & healing — 30:32–36:32
• Pornography’s damage & shame — 60:42–62:20
• 1 Corinthians 7 and sexual entitlement — 37:31–40:50
• Emotional nakedness & honesty in marriage — 46:48–49:19
• Practical tools for men & women — 51:08–54:50
• Purity culture and feminine desire — 54:50–56:17
• Envy, bitterness, and Psalm 37 — 69:49–71:12
• God’s presence in the bedroom — 77:29–80:57
• Closing prayer for healing and hope — 74:26–76:13

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Tone & Takeaway

With warmth, humor, and raw vulnerability, Jackie, Preston, and Dr. Slattery offer an uncommonly honest, biblically rooted, and compassionate dialogue around sex, brokenness, and healing. The episode stands out for its blend of scientific insight, theological depth, and practical wisdom—calling listeners to pursue holistic intimacy, reject cultural and religious distortions, and invite God into every corner of their sexual selves.

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Connect with Dr. Juli Slattery & Authentic Intimacy:
See show notes for resources, books, and further avenues for learning.

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Final Practical Challenge (76:33):
For all the husbands: “Go rub your wife’s feet and don’t expect nothing in return.”
— Preston Perry

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

How are you?

[A]

What up with y'?

[B]

All? Hope you're having a great, grand, beautiful, probably hard, difficult, complicated, complex, nuanced day.

[A]

It wasn't until we started that I realized what hat you had on. It reminds us. Reminds me of our anniversary.

[B]

Did you enjoy that?

[A]

I did, I did.

[B]

You sure?

[A]

I did. No, I really did enjoy it because the first time we went. So we went to Disney World for our anniversary. The first time I went to Disney World, my life was like, what, two years ago? We took all of our children and it was miserable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't enjoyable because it was like 115 degrees.

[B]

I mean, it was. It was enjoyable. Like you have moments where your kids are looking at Mickey Mouse.

[A]

Like, oh, yeah, when my three year old, he was three at the time, he saw Mickey Mouse and he literally, like, thought he was. He, like he was in a different world. That brought a lot of joy to me. And then 10 minutes, the in between, wanted to go home.

[B]

I personally think. And this ain't even an ad. I wish Disney would pay us. I think more people should go to Disney World as adults. Like, it's just a different experience. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I thought it was funny that our kids felt some type of way that we went to Disney World without them. It's like.

[B]

And they ain't gonna see it. I said, august is sage. They gotta grow up a little bit. I can't do that again with toddlers. I just. I just can't. I will say, here's a teachable moment. Even people like, why'd y' all go to Disney World? Cause life is hard. And I was like, we need to have fun. I don't wanna. I love beaches. I enjoy beaches, but sometimes you just have to have some fun.

[A]

I was shocked, though, when you introduced the idea to me. Cause, I mean, we were always going to, like, Mexico or Dominican Republic or Costa Rica.

[B]

She's like, let's go to Disney World. I said, I need joy. I need natural, holy ways to give me some dopamine and some serotonin. I was like, I just need to go down somebody's roller coaster.

[A]

Scare you. Scare you to life.

[B]

Speaking of dopamine in serotonin, I just wanna welcome Dr. Julie Slatter. How are you?

[C]

I'm doing really well. I love Disney, too.

[B]

So, Julia, when the last time you been?

[C]

Oh, man, maybe a year ago. Oh, that was recent, but I got another trip scheduled. Just me and my husband are going very soon.

[B]

What parks did y' all go to? Y' all Went all of them.

[C]

We have been to all of them. I think most recently, we went to Magic Kingdom and Epcot. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the hard part.

[A]

So we're not.

[B]

It is a world.

[A]

I was, like, very encouraging to me.

[B]

Cause I'm like, yeah, we went to three parks. No, I'm saying, oh, that they went to Disney World. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, we used to take the kids, but it is more fun as grownups. You actually can enjoy it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You ain't got nobody begging you for. You know, every teddy bear they see, they want all the funnel cakes. It's like, go to bed.

[B]

And it was at some point, I don't know if y' all experience. We walked through the park. I said, honestly, we had been there, like, three hours. I said, we can go. Like, I just wanna lay down and

[A]

I'm not gonna cry like my son. I'm like, yeah, I wanna lay down, too. My knees hurt.

[B]

My ankles are in pain.

[C]

There you go. Just wait. It only gets worse.

[B]

I was trying to describe. Are you a. You're a psychiatrist? You're a therapist? Like, what, what, what, what? I know you're a doctor. I don't know exactly what kind.

[C]

Yeah, I'm a psychologist.

[B]

Okay. So what's the difference?

[C]

Psychiatrists are medical doctors, so they go to medical school, and then they specialize in psychiatry. So they're going to be dealing with prescribing medication and depression and psychosis. Psychologists are more like. We get our degree in helping people talk through trauma, manage anxiety, depression, relationships. So it's like a talking doctor.

[B]

What got you into that? I feel like I asked you before, because it's just a fascinating thing what causes people to journey in today.

[C]

It is. Yeah. So I think I probably decided to go into psychology when I was a young adult, maybe 18 or 20, in college, and just always wanted to make God's word really practical for people. And there's a lot of psychology in the Bible, but your psychology has to be rooted in the fear of the Lord. You know, Proverbs says that the fear of all or the beginning of all wisdom is the fear of the Lord. And so just noticing, like, I had an interest in that field, but noticing how quickly we can go off track when we just pursue wisdom the way the world does. And so just a real passion to speak in spaces of, like, marriage and family and women's issues from a biblical perspective.

[B]

That's tough.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think most people are crazy?

[C]

I think we're all crazy.

[B]

Okay. I just wanted to know.

[C]

It's just by degree in how well we mask it.

[B]

So there we go.

[A]

Yeah, I know we're gonna talk about a particular subject, but, you know, I asked my therapist this one time, is it ever frustrating when you're. When you're working with someone and you feel like you can't help them because they don't know how to be honest?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

You feel like you're wasting your time.

[C]

Yes. So, like, when you ask the question, are we all crazy? I mean, you gotta kind of define that. We are all hiding, you know, like, we're all. We all learn these ways to cope with the bad stuff in us and the bad stuff we experience in the world. And so we have, like, what psychologists would call, like, defense mechanisms and ways that we survive. And so when you bring that up, you know, a lot of what a good therapist is going to do is peel back layers to get you to discover what are your root fears, like, what drives you, what's your motivation. And so what you're talking about there, Preston, is, you know, people that you meet with that they don't want to go there, they just want you to fix their problem, or they just want to be validated in their current situation, but they're not ready or they're not able or they're not willing to do that hard work. So.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah, it just. And I think that there are therapists who will just keep taking your money and listening to you, but I think somebody who really wants to see people flourish will be like, come back when you're ready.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Don't waste my time. Don't waste yours.

[B]

That's so funny, because me and Preston talked about that this morning, just about the fear of being known and just all of the work we put into over the years to keep ourselves from that. And just. The Lord was showing me just parts of my life, even presently, but in the past that I've just learned how to find just really fancy dope fig leaves. And it's like in deep seasons, I think wilderness seasons and pruning seasons, it's like. He's like, yeah, that doesn't work for you anymore. You know what I'm saying? And that's a scary. It's a hard process to learn how to trust him to cover you.

[A]

But it's also like a double conundrum. Cause what we were talking about is how the enemy, the devil, can kind of make you feel. Like in the world, those relationships were easier because you cope with people who you hid in front of all the time. But in Christ Christ forces you not to hide. He removes those fig leaves. And so even though you might have been comfortable more in your past life, you wasn't known at all because you were presenting a version of yourself that wasn't really you, you know? And so I think that's the beauty. Beauty about, you know, serving the Lord. The Lord forces us to be bare and vulnerable before people. And so.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So true.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So we want to talk about sex.

[A]

Let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you.

[B]

I don't know if they'll flag us. I would hate to be flagged as a Madonna. That would be something. I would be like, you know what's crazy?

[A]

I didn't even know whose song that was.

[B]

That's her song, ain't it? Isn't that Madonna? No.

[C]

Nobody know. You mean a fact checker?

[B]

Like debates?

[A]

I just remember hearing it when I was a young kid.

[B]

I feel like it's her. I don't know. I think it was, like, about AIDS or hiv. I don't. I don't know. I don't know. I don't. I do know that Dr. Julius Slattery is here, and we want to talk about sex. 1. Y' all are obsessed with it. Every. Every conversation we have ever had. Where sex is in the heading, the views go up. That's why we don't talk about it,

[A]

because we are not joking.

[B]

We're not going to itch our ears like that, and we don't know what we talking about. Secondly, I do think it's a helpful, necessary conversation to have because it's pivotal. Like, we are sexual beings. We are married, we're engaged, we're dating, we're widowed, we're divorced. We're all this stuff. We're traumatized. And I just think you would be the best person to talk about.

[A]

I just want to say on air, Jackie has talked about you a lot.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Through the years.

[B]

I have.

[A]

Yeah. Every time she comes back, she just brags about how much she learned.

[B]

You ministered to my soul.

[C]

That's encouraging. I feel the same way about you, Jackie. Every time I interact with you, I just am like, that woman just speaks the truth.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

So with so much courage.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

Yeah, well, that's a million dollar question right there. I certainly didn't sign up for it or think that this would ever be what the Lord would call me to. It was really only about 15 years ago that I intentionally entered this space of, I guess, being becoming an expert on sexuality from a Christian standpoint. And so I had spent a lot of years as a therapist and then as more of a generalist in terms of helping people with marriage and family issues. I worked at Focus on the Family for a time and I just went through a season of about maybe nine or 10 months of the Lord just really drawing my attention to himself. And I was pretty wrecked for that season. And maybe you've gone through something like that or, you know, our viewers have gone through that where it's like God is just calling you to seek his face. And so yeah, it was like a wrecking of the Holy Spirit in my life. So for about that period of time, nine or 10 months, I couldn't watch TV, I couldn't read a magazine. Like, I couldn't do anything but take care of my family, work and seek God. And he began to like literally give me a pain in my chest that just felt heavy. It would wake me up at night, it would just cause me to get on my knees and pray. And I was being mentored by a woman who was discipling me through this. And she just said, you need to start asking the Lord, like what he is calling you to. What is this pain? And so I started like, asking him and went through some seasons of, like, prayer and fasting and. And he just made it really clear through the course of, like, a month that he was calling me to speak on this topic of sexuality, that there was so much pain and brokenness that the church wasn't acknowledging and wasn't addressing. And so it was like, just. It was one of those seasons where all, you know, to do is wake up and do the next thing that God puts in front of you. So started this ministry called authentic intimacy about 14 years ago, and. And I have been on a learning journey ever since of just seeking the Lord and working with people and entering into these very difficult and painful conversations around sexuality.

[B]

Yeah. Why did. Why did God make sex? Why is that a thing?

[C]

Well, let me ask you first. What's the answer that comes to your mind like a good psychologist? I got to answer your question with a question.

[B]

No, I got anxiety, I think. Well, I mean, I think it's couched. It has to be couched in Ephesians 5, you know, that marriage is a reflection of his gospel. And I think sex seems to be the way we experience oneness in the same way that the Trinity experiences oneness. And so I think that has to be. It can't just be procreation.

[A]

And that's not her saying, like, some weirdos, actually, like, you have this ideology and theology that the Trinity is intimate in what.

[B]

They're one.

[A]

They're one.

[B]

And so I think one of the closest means of oneness in relationship with another is through the sexual union. And so I'm not. Yeah, I think the oneness of the Trinity is something that is mysterious and deep, and so is sex. And so I just. I guess that's one reason.

[C]

Yeah. So in Ephesians 5, it's not specifically talking about the Trinity, although there's a lot of theology around that. But it's talking about a husband and wife being a representation of Christ in the church. So I think when we step back. And I'm so glad you brought that up, because a lot of people are like, oh, it's how we make babies or how we show love. But that really isn't the depth of what the scripture teaches us. The Bible really shows us that everything God created, he created to reveal himself ultimately. So like a tree, you know, it's not just to give us shade. We see all these scriptures that refer to plant life to help us reveal something about God and our relationship with him. And so if you pick up your Bible and you open any page, you're going to see physical created things that reveals spiritual truth.

[B]

That's good.

[C]

And so we have to look at sex and we have to look at marriage to say, okay, what did God create this to reveal about himself? And what we see throughout scripture is that the one flesh union between a man and a woman that the scripture would call marriage is revealing something called a covenant, a covenant relationship that God has with his people. And we see this metaphorical language both in the Old Testament and New Testament that essentially is connecting the idea of sex and marriage with God's covenant love. And so ultimately, God created sex to be a living, living metaphor to show us what covenant is and how he loves us with an intimate, faithful covenant love.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Wow. And this is the reason why the scriptures talk about, like, you know, if a man joins body with the prostitute, you know what I'm saying? Like, how offensive it is to a holy and righteous God when we give our bodies to somebody that we're not in covenant relationship.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

It's deep.

[B]

I think what's scary about that is how unnatural that understanding is. You know what I'm saying? Because even when you say it, I know it's true, but that's just not communicated on TV and music. That's not what we were raised on. Because I even think in Christian spaces is, you do this because you're supposed to, or you do this because you don't want sin, you don't go to hell, or you got to make babies. But that vision for it is just deeper, you know what I'm saying? But also beautiful. Yeah, it's very beautiful. It's like, oh, no wonder this. This thing is, like, being used and abused in crazy ways. Like, would you. Would you say that you like, oh, I want to go so many places. Why do you think sex is so powerful in light of the way Scripture defines it?

[C]

Because it is one of the most powerful living metaphors we have. Okay. So, like, if you look at the predominant metaphors in scripture that help us understand God relationally, one of them is a parent child, which talk about a powerful relationship. You never get over who your parents are, good or bad. It's so imprinting on who you are. And God created that to be a powerful relationship because it is a primary way we understand who God is, is understanding family, understanding father children. And that. That provision, that protection, that discipline. And the second one, and I guess they would be equal, is that relationship of a husband and wife. It is throughout Scripture, like from the very beginning, Genesis, when God creates Adam and Eve, has Them naked in a garden. And we have the verse, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two become one flesh, which is sex. All right, so that verse that Paul Repeats in Ephesians 5 all the way through to Revelation, where we're told, mysteriously, that there's this wedding feast of the lamb and his bride, and they're joined together. And so this metaphor is, by God's design, so powerful, because his love, his covenant love that pursues us, that is faithful to us, that knows us intimately, is so powerful.

[A]

Yeah, that's really good.

[C]

So we have to look at what are we meant to experience on earth and what does it reveal to us about God? And, you know, Jackie said it's so unnatural. But what is unnatural? The fact that we can't grasp that because Satan has so vandalized it, or the statement that that's what it was always meant to be? You know, I think we're living in the unnatural state of not being able to integrate our sexuality with who God is.

[A]

Wow. That's really profound.

[B]

That's a fact.

[A]

Sheesh. Wow. So some years back, a lady at our church, she said something that always stuck with me. She said, when you're not married, the devil wants you in everybody bed, but when you are married, he don't even want you in your own.

[C]

Yeah, that's so true.

[A]

And I was like, wow, you. And we obviously know that the enemy attacks not just sex, but just marriage because it is a great picture of the gospel, Christ's relationship with his church. Right. So with all that being said, when it comes to the way the world perverts sex and the enemy attacks marriage and sex, like, what is a good way for a man and woman to connect? Because I can hear some men, and I have disciples, some men who say, you know, if sex is good, we should do it. It don't matter how we feel like it. Almost as if the sex is the thing that fixes a marriage, a relationship. Right. And so I like, how important for us. How important is it for us to, like, emotionally connect on a level to even get to the place where. Am I making sense a little bit?

[C]

Absolutely, you're making sense. And I have heard a lot of guys say that so you're not alone. And, you know, I will say that there's something to that.

[A]

Something to do what?

[C]

To what the husband is saying. You know, even when we look at the biology of it, you know, God designed sex, particularly regular, monogamous sex. I almost said monotonous that can be that too. But he designed it in such a way that your brain gets hits of dopamine, which is a pleasure hormone. You get endorphins, which is that sense of feeling good and at peace with the world. But there's also a hormone called oxytocin that bonds you together. So women have tons of oxytocin in our bodies at any given time. And a lot when you give birth, when you're breastfeeding, because it helps you bond with this little creature that is going to destroy your life, basically. You know, it makes you feel connected. And so women will get oxytocin in their bodies at high levels when they go on a date with their husband or he holds their hand. Men only get high doses of oxytocin right after intercourse.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And so a man will get like a 500 time dose of oxytocin right after intercourse, which makes him feel bonded to his wife. And so when a husband will say, that's how I feel close to you. Like there's science behind that.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

But. And I say big but here because that's not all there is to the gift of sex. It's not just a physical act. If you've been married any length of time, you realize that that physical act is only going to go so far in terms of keeping you close. And it actually can become a source of conflict because you're so different. And so you have to switch to understanding the gift of sex, to actually being more a journey of intimacy, not just an activity. And there are times in marriage where the activity is going to break down for one reason or another. And you have to take the invitation to go beyond what's happening physically and get naked emotionally.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And a lot of couples can be married for decades and they know how to do the physical act, but they can't be vulnerable about the shame, the fears, their longings, their desires, even navigating how they feel rejected when their spouse doesn't want sex or how they feel objectified. And so it's really an invitation to go that deeper level of what is the journey of intimacy that we're on, not just physically, but beyond that.

[A]

That's really good.

[B]

Yeah. It seems as if a part of the function of being in the world is that sex is, you know, like it's useful to serve and meet all of our needs in a way, you know. And so I think it can be an undoing to get married and realize that this act isn't solely about me. You know, what I'm saying

[A]

as parents, a lot of us have experienced our children watching something and then something pops on the screen to add that we didn't want them to see. It causes all this anxiety in us. And we also experience trying to find, you know, outlets for our kids to watch godly content on a consistent basis. And so this is the reason why I think Menno is such an important tool for our children as they develop and grow in Christ.

[B]

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[A]

Because what's crazy is when I think about just our society, it's really hard for anybody, whether you came from a Christian home, went to Christian, you know, private schools, for you to grow up in this world, become an adult and not experience some type of sexual brokenness.

[C]

100%.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, it's literally. No, it's like, it's like enthralled in our community, like in our communities, in our shows and our movies, on our billboards and in our churches and I

[C]

mean, even through like purity culture and like you can grow up in churches and Christian schools and get a different kind of brokenness around sexuality.

[A]

Yeah. And to me, it kind of speaks to the power that God has behind the intention of sex. That the fact that the enemy attacks it that much?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? It must be a very powerful tool.

[C]

Yeah. There's a Catholic theologian who says, if you want to look at what is most holy, just look at what Satan most readily desecrates. I'm kind of paraphrasing him, but referring to sex, like, why does Satan come after this? Because he knows how powerful of a metaphor it is. And so if he can keep us from experiencing the fullness of that metaphor through pornography, through shame, through trauma, through selfishness, then he'll do that. So, you know, you said something earlier that I wanted to pick up on, Jackie, that it has to be more than selfishness. I've had about 15 years to think about all these different topics around sexuality. And one of the things that I realized is we have been so discipled by our culture to think of sex as an expression of me, even if it's not self. An expression of how I feel about you. And I think, unfortunately, in a lot of church settings, instead of challenging that assumption, we just kind of put Christian guardrails around it. Like, as long as you get married, it's an expression of how you feel. But God never designed sex to be an expression of how we feel, even in marriage.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So if you are like, oh, I'm not attracted to my spouse anymore. I don't feel loved. It's not about how you feel. It's about remembering and celebrating the covenant promise that you made.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Which is a paradigm shift because, again, we don't talk about that in the church.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, my mind immediately goes to, I think for. And I ain't studied it. I'm just going off of conversations. It seems like when you have a low libido or a high libido, that does kind of dictate the, like, sex. You know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like doing it. I don't feel like doing it. Like, how do you make sense of that when it comes to that experience?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. If I could sort of reframe that a little bit. In a way, that has been helpful for me in my marriage and then I think has helped a lot of other couples. This is just stuff that I've learned along the way. We typically talk about sex and marriage in terms of high and low libido. And what I think is more helpful is to talk about in terms of initiating desire and responsive desire. Okay. Because that reframes it to say you have sexual desire, it just is different than your spouse's. And it's different in different seasons. And so initiating desire, which is what probably about 70, 75% of men have, is they're gonna be the one who's thinking about sex more often. Who's thinking. This is the way I connect to my spouse who is pursuing sex, who is initiating in the marriage. The wife, about 70 to 75% of the time, particularly when you've got kids in the home and she's tired, is gonna be more. This is the furthest thing from my mind, but if you take me to Disneyland, if you get me away from the kids, if you romance me, like, if you give me time to get in the mood, I can actually engage in this and enjoy it. So what ends up happening is you usually have one of each in a marriage. Not always, but the initiator is always asking, and the responsive person is always sort of caught off guard and kind of develops a muscle of resisting, like, I'm not ready. Leave me alone. And so you have a dysfunctional dance. And then it becomes defined as high libido and low libido. Instead of the fact that this is something you both want in marriage, you just have a different way of approaching it.

[A]

Wow, that's really good. I have a lot of questions.

[B]

Can I ask them? Right there. In our experience, that's legit, and I think a part of what has complicated it is sexual trauma and abuse. Can you speak to, I guess, what sexual abuse and sexual trauma does to all the things and how to work through that as a couple?

[C]

Yeah. It is not only profoundly disruptive, I also think people need to know how prevalent it is. So there was a report by the CDC that came out. I mean, these numbers just astound me, that said that over 50% of women and 30% of men have experienced sexual violence involving physical contact. So we're not talking about, like, just, you know, a few people that have experienced this. This is over half of women.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And a third of men. So this is impacting a lot of people, a lot of couples. And so it's important that we talk about it. And the more we learn about trauma, and this includes all trauma, but especially for sexual trauma, it doesn't go away. It's not stored like normal memories. It's stored in somatic memories, like being touched a certain way or a certain smell or sound or sensation that brings a memory and the fear associated with it back. Okay. So a lot of people who have experienced sexual trauma, they can kind of bury it for a while, and it tends to resurface like around the 30s, when they have their own kids or when they become sexually active, they get married. And so you're not looking for it to come up, but it gets triggered. And so this will mean that if there's an initiation of sex and something happens that's triggering, you've got a couple of different choices. You can either just shut down, or you can go through the physical act, but dissociate and kind of distance yourself psychologically. And so a lot of couples don't identify this. And they just keep saying, well, the Bible says we're supposed to do this. So they go through the motions, and they actually are retraumatizing the individual as trauma. So there's a lot of work in terms of identifying what those triggers are, working through the memories so that they're processed in a healthier way. And then also, like, stepping back as a couple and. And learning to reintegrate touch in a way that feels safer and where the person who has trauma feels like they have agency instead of just feeling like they're supposed to endure this.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's important because, you know, I don't think I realized how messed up in the head I was until I got married, you know, because it's in my book. Yeah. Just being sexually abused at 5, 6 in high. In middle school. But I also think the doozy that pornography did on me when it came to. I think it. I didn't think I knew this, but I think it trained me to believe that my body legitimately was an object for just a man's pleasure. And so I think one thing that we worked through that was really helpful, and people would probably think strange is that we've had to have seasons where that is not an obligation for me, you know, where it's like, no, I want to connect with you. You know, your curiosity. Let's play games. Let's find other means of intimacy so that when we do come together in that way, you feel safe. Because I think when that stuff is taken from you, safety is like a huge thing. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[A]

And that's something that, you know, it's crazy how the Lord allows you to go through things, because what I've learned about the Lord is he's never going to waste anything. And so, like, I went through things early on in my marriage, even now, now I'm discipling young men, and they're going through the same things that I'm going through. Right. And so because so many women are. Have been abused growing up Men aren't taught to even going into a marriage having a hard posture that would even allow their wife to feel like she has the autonomy to ch when she wants to receive sex. Right. And even have the emotional maturity to do the extra things. Right. Because I think vice versa. In the same way that Jackie was taught watching pornography that porn kind of informs you that your body is an object, I think for men, I think it actually teaches us that women bodies are an object. And so we even go into

[B]

our

[A]

marriage with this sexual brokenness and false ideology that, you know, this woman is for my pleasure and not from, like not to, for me to lavish my love on.

[B]

We're both traumatized.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

So true.

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy how both men and women are traumatized. It just looks different and it shows up. It manifests itself in different ways.

[C]

I'm so glad you're discipling men in that. You know, I, I think there's a lot of sexual entitlement in Christian marriage where you feel like, hey, I've been waiting for marriage and this was sort of promised to me and so my wife is going to be the fulfillment of everything I want sexually and everything I need so I don't have to look at porn anymore. And that whole paradigm is wrong. And so guys and women, we need mature people to disciple us through. When you hit that wall and you realize that married sex isn't what you think it's going to be, and it requires a lot of self denial. You know, like we call Christian singles to self denial, but for some reason we never call Christian married people to self denial to say, this isn't about me, this is about learning to love the way God loves me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I think ultimately it's a heart issue, you know, and sex can't fix a heart issue. And so I think your wife denying you actually exposes. Yeah, your heart issues. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do.

[C]

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[A]

but can you speak to that really quick because you Said there's a lot of entitlement. And we talked before the episode about men and even some women, but mostly men use the Scripture. Your body is not right, so your body actually belongs to me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you explain that? And what do you think the Scriptures were trying to communicate in that?

[C]

Yeah, for sure. So we were talking about 1 Corinthians, chapter seven, the first five verses. And Paul says, you know, basically, if you're married, your body isn't your own. It belongs to your wife. If you're a guy, if your wife, your body belongs to your husband. You know, that you are to meet each other's needs, essentially. And if you've been in church any length of time, you might have heard somebody preach on this. And the conclusion they come to is if you're married, you owe each other sex. And if you're not having sex, then Satan's gonna tempt you to have an affair or use pornography. Cause that's sort of what Paul seems to be talking about there. But you know. Cause you guys are biblical scholars that in order to understand something, first of all, you gotta back up and look at it in context. And if we read the verses that precede First Corinthians, chapter 7 and 1 Corinthians chapter 6, we find an interesting thing. Paul first says, do you know that your body is not your own? Your body belongs to the Lord. The Lord. Okay, so before we even start to talk about what marriage is, we gotta say, as a believer, I don't go into marriage with a sense of entitlement. My body, my sexuality belongs to the Lord. And Paul says, therefore, honor God with your body. Bring him glory. And then he begins talking about, what does that look like in marriage? And a lot of people would just interpret that verse as, the person who has the higher sexual need should get their needs met. So let's say stereotypically, not always, but stereotypically, let's say the husband is like, yeah, I want sex. Wife, you've gotta meet that need. Let's look at 1 Corinthians 7. That's what it's saying. But really what we have to look at is Paul is saying you both need to minister to each other sexually. And so, guys, you need to minister to your wife sexually. Her brokenness, her nuance, her complication, you know, her hormones gone all over the place, her exhaustion in raising kids. Don't look out for your own interests, but look out for the interests of the other. And wife, you need to minister to your husband sexually, understand his brokenness, understand his history, understand why sex is an important connection point for him. And together, you're working out what it looks like to love with Covenant. You need to prioritize the sexual journey, not the sexual act.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

And when we put it in that context, it fits within the whole of scripture that tells us to love with an unselfish love. You know, if we Fast forward in 1 Corinthians, we find that Paul is defining love in 1 Corinthians 13. Patient, kind, not looking out for his own interests, not holding a record of wrong. Apply that to the bedroom. You know, love is patient in the bedroom. Love is kind. It does not demand its own way. It doesn't keep a record of wrong. So when you read First Corinthians 7, you gotta put in the context of all of how the scripture defines love.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

That's really good.

[B]

Yeah, I think you've done a good job with that. Aww.

[C]

Aw.

[B]

Little word of affirmation. I'm trying to love, you know? No. Cause I think it has been a journey. You know what I'm saying? Cause I even remember I might have shared this before, but how? When I had therapy, when I was. I don't know. I think we were dead. No, I was pregnant with Autumn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my therapist was like, do you remember. Yeah, I said this before. She was like, do you remember the first man that touched you? Or. Yeah. Like, do you remember the first time your dad touched you? Or something like that? I was like, I don't know. I was like, I feel like the first man that touched me was my abuser. And she was like, that's kind of significant that your first conception of affection from a man was not your father, but the man who, like, abused you. You know what I'm saying? And so I think the Lord has used our marriage and is using our marriage to undo whatever that did to my brain. Because I was like. At some point, I remember praying to the Lord, I was like, my brain needs to be fixed. It's like, I know the scripture, but my brain has been wired in such a way where I just respond crazy. So, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And, you know, and I have my own. Cause I think the truth is, a lot of men, we go into marriage with a lot of sexual brokenness, but it's masked under so much crap and false masculinity and all of the things. And I had my share of sexual brokenness. I lost my virginity when I was 12 to one of my grandmother's foster children who was Very sexually active. And so her coming in my room every morning, not even knowing what I was doing. You know what I mean?

[B]

And you didn't even consent?

[A]

I didn't even consent. You know, half of the times I was asleep, you know, and so that's how I lost my virginity. Being woke up out of my sleep one day when I was 12.

[C]

And that's abuse.

[A]

It's abuse. And so, yeah, I even wrote in my poem, just because I enjoyed it doesn't mean I wasn't molested.

[C]

No.

[A]

And so I think men going into marriage with that type of trauma, I think what the. If the. If they're not. You know, I think some men are led to, you know, be, like, homosexual or whatever. But I think for a lot of men, we're taught that we are only men if women desire us. We are only powerful if women find us irresistible. I think that's what pornography teaches us. I think that's what girls in our neighborhood teach us. And so when you come into this covenant marriage with this nuanced, complicated, beautiful woman.

[B]

Human. Human.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And you actually have to do life, it becomes super hard when society tells you you're a man if a woman doesn't deny you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. And so now you have to. You have to create a whole different framework around you. You have to say, man. Okay, Lord, how do you really want me to love your image bearer, which is my wife? And I think doing that work is hard, but I think it's necessary.

[C]

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that vulnerability, both of you. That's not easy to do. I remember hearing a guy named Dr. Archibald Hart, who. He's no longer with us, but he was a Christian psychologist who was writing on this stuff way before I was. And I heard him say something once that caught me in my track. He said that he believed men had more unwanted sex than women do.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And I'm like, what?

[B]

Sheesh.

[C]

Yeah. And he, like, he peeled it back, and he's like, men are having sex because they've been told that this is what proves their masculinity.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And they have performance demands, and they're supposed to always be wanting it and always be ready. And when you really peel back those layers of why they're pursuing sex, it has nothing to do with desire or intimacy. It's all about, this is what men do. This is what I'm expected to do. And so you're absolutely right. In the crucible of marriage and particularly the sexual area of marriage, if you're willing, it is going to reveal so Much of the dross that the Lord just wants to burn away, the lies that we believe about what it means to be male or female, what it means to be human, what it means to be whole.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's why it's sanctifying. You know what I'm saying? Like, God uses all the things to purify. Because I do think for me, I think what trauma has done, it made me. It makes me very self protective. Therefore it makes me have a bent towards selfishness. And so there's a lot of honesty and vulnerability. I gotta walk in to even be able to say yes from a sense. And that's not all the time. I mean, we go on a trip, it might be a different thing, but you got kids and you got business, you got ministries. It just be a lot of things.

[A]

Yeah, I like trips.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

When you remove the distractions, it's helpful.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So can you speak to. I know it's a lot here and everybody got a case by case basis, but even for the woman, how to navigate that line between selfishness and. I don't know how to say.

[A]

That's a good question, baby. Because I got a.

[B]

Because it gets weird after you answer.

[A]

I got a question about men.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Because we could be selfish, but we also need to be cared for.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So it's like.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it is selfish.

[A]

No, I'm just playing ba.

[C]

Okay, so I think again, backing up and looking at the bigger picture.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

You know what you really want in marriage is you want to be known and you want to be loved and you want to know your husband and you want to love him. Right. And so there's elements of sex, I think, particularly in difficult seasons of marriage and when there's trauma where we want to love our husband without being known, you know, and you said something right there, girl. I mean, that can feel like, oh, I'm being such a good wife. But in the long run, you're really not building intimacy. You're really not inviting him to pursue the deeper layers of who you are and you learning to be vulnerable about even revealing those deeper layers. And so yes, there are seasons and there are times where it's like we don't have the energy to work through all this stuff. Let's just do what we need to do to get through the day. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But if you stay there and a married couple can either stay in that kind of negotiated transaction where it's like, oh, we gotta do this. Cause we haven't done it in a while, and they stay stuck. Or they can stay in a rut where they're not having sex at all, they're not working on anything. Both of those are unhealthy. But the trajectory of the marriage of women is, yes, I want to be unselfish in understanding and meeting my husband's needs. But part of what he needs is to know how to love me. And until I can be vulnerable and vocal about what's going on inside of me and the complexity of me, I'm never calling him to that space.

[A]

That's good. That's really good.

[B]

That is excellent. Because, in essence, it's getting underneath the yes and the no. Yeah, yeah. Cause I think we. Okay, I'll give it to you. Bet. But it's like. Or, no, I won't. But why? Why? What's happening?

[C]

Why am I resisting? Is it that I'm tired? Is it that I feel like you just want me for my body and I want you to want me? Is it because I'm afraid you're looking at porn and I'm insecure? I mean, what's going on? Is it because I hate my body and I don't wanna show you something I think you're gonna reject? And so those deeper levels are intimacy. You know, they're where a couple gets beyond the physical act and actually starts going on a journey where they're getting naked at all levels.

[B]

Wow. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love this conversation.

[A]

That's so good. Cause I think you talked about the oxytocin thing, right? And I think. Because from a man's perspective, I think what. I think what a lot of women don't understand is a lot of men, good men. I'm not talking about men who are just out there just being trash, you know, Good men who love their wives. I feel like they're all chasing that feeling after sex.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They're chasing this man. I feel close to her. I feel. You know, and so I can understand the frustration of a lot of men who are accused of just wanting somebody's body when it's actually, I want to. You know, if I want somebody's body, I can go out there and cheat with a whole bunch of bodies. But I want you because I want to feel close to you. Essentially, what you're saying is men want what women want, but we just receive it at the end in a lot of ways.

[C]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But they don't have words for it.

[A]

They don't have words for it. And so this is my Question to you.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

What are some practical tools that men can have to, one, actively communicate that to their wives, Display that, how we can love our wives. Because I've even heard young men that I disciple go through. What I went through was I don't even wanna feel like I'm doing this just because I don't want her to think I'm doing all this just cause I want sex. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah. Like washing dishes and stuff.

[A]

Yeah, like, that's definitely like a deposit, but it works.

[B]

It feels like an investment.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? And so, like, what are some practical tools to kind of communicate our hearts and our motives to our wives about our expectations when it comes to sex?

[C]

I love that question. I mean, I think first of all, they need a vision for something greater than what they have. Because again, even good Christian guys who listen to podcasts and read their Bibles, they can still have the limited vision of I want sex. God says sex is supposed to be in marriage. I'm married, therefore I should have sex. And they don't think beyond that.

[A]

I used to think like that.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I mean, that's how we're taught to think in the world. And it's just sort of sanctified instead of blowing that box up. And so when a guy has people in his life, whether it be somebody mentoring him or reading books or discipleship, to see God has so much more for you. Like, this is actually a journey of intimacy that is going to take you deeper even in understanding yourself than you ever realized. But more importantly, deeper in a understanding how God loves and when he can see and talk to an older guy who's like, let me tell you, 20 years down the road, the things God has taught me about love and how I've learned to love my wife and how I've learned to receive her love, he's got a vision for something. Because then the road towards that is going to require some uncomfortable things that go against that sense of entitlement. So it's going to require. I just want to give you a back rub without expecting anything, you know, not even this lingering if you're in the mood. No, I just want to minister to you, you know, and if now's not, if you're not, if I initiate and you're not interested, I can take that without being pouty, you know, Like, I just can take that as all right, Lord, teach me to love like you do and teach me to love. The complexity of my wife read A good book like one by Cliff and Joyce Penner. They have a number of good books. One called Restoring the Pleasure, another called the way to love your wife, I think it's called. It helps you understand your wife physically, emotionally. Because your wife is a complex creature. Female sexuality is far more complicated than male sexuality. So become a student of her. You know, those are some of the things. And then use language that says, you are the most beautiful woman in the world to me. And she'll argue with you. No. You know, like, I've got this going on. Like, just convince her that you want her. She's not an outlet for you.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

You want her.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you want to learn to love her. And that is a long road. Like I said, that requires discipleship. But when you have that vision of what it can look like, and women do respond in time to that because they feel safe, they feel loved, and they feel the freedom to pursue you. And that's the other thing I would say to both men and women is women cannot be passive in the sexual relationship. And I think a lot of times the dynamic is the husband is initiating and the woman is just passive. She has to go after her own sexuality. Like you read the Song of Solomon, and the woman isn't just waiting around, like, she's going after it. And I think Christian women don't hear that message that you. This is not a spectator sport. Like, you have to actually, you have to actively pursue understanding your own body, the desires God has given you and how that can be beautiful and holy in marriage. Because a lot of women still feel like sex is dirty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think purity culture or the way the church has navigated the sexual discussion as a part of that?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

In what way?

[C]

Yeah, in so many ways. Because I think, you know, like, there's a lot of. There's a lot of stuff being said about purity culture these days. Some of it's fair, some of it's unfair. I was alive during a lot of that and know some of the people who were writing about it and speaking about it back in the day. And the intentions were good, but the messages were way too simplistic. And so when we simplify something complicated, it becomes legalism. And so women heard, not just don't have sex before marriage, but you shouldn't be a sexual person, and your body is dangerous. So cover it up. Don't make your brothers fall and stumble. And so women really internalize messages that my sexual body is bad. Sexual desire is wrong always. Sex is about men. It's not about me. There was victim blaming. Like, if a woman was abused, it was, what were you wearing? Why were you with that guy? Men were not taught. Men were mental. The responsibility of them stewarding their own bodies. So those are some of it, but it just. We could spend a whole hour talking about that.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. I know. I'm thinking about. So context. I have a monthly meetup Patreon men's group. And so when I'm even talking to you, a lot of their questions and a lot of the things that I talk with them, that's popping up in my head. I know pornography kind of gives us a false sense of manhood, of, you know, this false masculinity that says I'm wanted by women.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I do think, in many aspects, I think it's something healthy there for a man to feel wanted by the woman that he loves. And I feel like a lot of men want their wives to pursue sex.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they want to feel like they're desired. They want to feel like they're, you know, like, you want me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I think it can be perverted. It can become perverted. But at the same time, I do think in a lot of ways, it's natural for us to want to feel wanted or whatever. And so I think, what are some ways for men to help distinguish the two to the point where it's perverted or this is a healthy wanting. And in the healthy wanting, how. How can I get my wife on the same page?

[C]

Well, you're saying a lot of it, which is just identifying it. And I think what you said that is so key is, you know, Satan just takes everything God made and twists it. He doesn't invent new things. And so, like in Proverbs 5, Solomon is talking about this woman who is going after the guy and is saying, come lie with me. And it's really. We have no description of what she looks like. It's just the fact that she wants him and she's luring him in, you know? But then Solomon says, like, instead, like, drink water from your own cistern, like, be intoxicated by your own wife. And so Solomon isn't saying the desire for that is bad. He's saying that desire needs to live in the right place, and it's a choice. And so I think a lot of it is recognizing the kernel of goodness in that desire, which you said a lot of guys who struggle with pornography, they'll go through, you know, integrity ministries, which are great, but they come out of those integrity ministries and the way they deal with their lust is they just kill all sexual desire, and they don't know how to re enter and reintegrate intimacy and desire in their marriage in a healthy way.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So it's recognizing some of those lies underneath that working through the fear of, where will my desire take me? What does holy desire look like? What does it look like to focus on my wife? Not that I want to consume her, but that I love her and I want to show her love. So, again, it's discipleship, but just sounds like you're doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think men and women watch porn for different reasons?

[C]

Good question. Yes and no. I think they're initially maybe drawn to it for different reasons. For a lot of men, you know, they get exposed to it before they can even really think it through, you know, in the early teen years. And it's the visual stimulation, it's the cultural discipleship, that this is what boys do. This is what makes you manly. Women like the storyline. They can get drawn in either through erotica or through a guy they're dating who's like, watch this with me. And they get the same dopamine impact on their brain that then gets them hooked. But where I say it's the same reason is porn is a medication for something. So it actually works like a drug on your brain, where you're gonna get that dopamine, you're gonna get those endorphins that temporarily make you feel good. And so men and women will use porn to combat loneliness, depression as a way of coping with trauma, as a way of rewarding themselves. And so there is probably more overlap, even though they might be drawn into porn for different reasons Initially.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Can you talk about the psychological impact and even the spiritual emotional impact that porn has on us, especially when we watch it at a young age?

[C]

Oh, wow. There's levels to it, because I'm watching

[B]

that stuff at five.

[A]

Five, yeah.

[B]

Now that I have kids, I'm like, that is horrific.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. You know, we can talk about this psychological impact. There's all kinds of studies that will show, like, the hit it takes on self esteem, depression, anxiety, how it impacts relationships, intimate relationships. It even impacts sexual functioning because your brain is wired to respond to something that's unnatural. And so you have trouble responding in a normal relationship, which is why, to be honest, a lot of people get married and their bodies are connecting, but their minds are thinking about porn. So it's not intimacy. And that creates huge wedges when we look at spiritually. I think it's hugely significant because there's so much shame. And most people, particularly if they're exposed to pornography when they're young, they can't get off it themselves.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And so they might love God, they might be in ministry, they might love their spouse. They promise, I'm not gonna look at this again. And they find themselves going back to it. And they're like, I don't even know if I'm a Christian. If I can't stop looking at this and God can't love me, God can't possibly bless me. And so they can live their whole life with that secret cloud of shame that keeps us from really, intimacy with God and receiving his love.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I mean, would you. I know you're not like the freedom from porn guy.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

I just think because our experiences are different in that, you know, I watch porn. I don't think it was five. I think it was seven. From seven to 19. And when I became a believer, that was just something that was snatched from me immediately. There was a lot of things I had to. A lot of sins I had to work through, work out. That one was just gone. And so that's why I always lean on you for wisdom on how to process that. Because one thing I do remember, I was in discussion with some people recently. We were talking about it when I used to watch porn in high school. I remember I would always feel this weight. I didn't know it was shame, but it was this heavy feeling of badness and guilt. And I was like, why do I feel. And it was like, I see it in all kinds of ways, and I don't feel guilty. But with this one, it was in. I think it was a darkness, you know what I'm saying? And so, I don't know. I just. I think of the women and the men because I think a lot of women have also commented, like, no, we need help too, who just feel like they can't get out of that cycle, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I think. I think getting out of that cycle is one. The first step is being honest with God about your expectations. Because I think. Because I think the human condition, I think the human heart. We're all searching for God, even though we don't realize that's who we're searching for. We're searching for fulfillment, which only he can. Can give you. We're searching for longing only he can give you. We're searching for joy, satisfaction, and all of the things. And so one, I had to, like when I fell into pornography, heavy pornography, use in our marriage. And it hurt you and it hurt God. I really had to be honest with the Lord, and I had to say, lord, I'm. I'm. I'm longing for something. Right? And so one thing that it showed me is that I had to repent for my unbelief in what God can do in my life way before I got married.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It was way before I got. I didn't believe that God was God over my sexuality before I got married. Right. And so, like you are, you redeemed me, but you redeemed me holistically. I just. It's aspects of my redemption that I don't believe you for. And so I have to be honest with the Lord in that, but I also have to be honest with myself, you know, because I think a lot of times men are vicariously living through other men who are not being rejected. And so it's not just a physical thing. It's a fantasy thing.

[B]

It's like covetousness.

[A]

Yeah. It's like you, like, you want to be him, right? You want to be the man who's making a woman feel this way. You want to be the man who women want and desire, and it's really acting. And so you're trying to vicariously live through a man who's acting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I think a lot of times, even in marriage, what the enemy tells us to do with our lust problem is to vicariously live through sin and perversion. And so I had to just be honest with myself and say, man, early on in my marriage, this false sense of intimacy comforted you every time your wife said no, that's. I had to be honest with myself. It's like you're looking for comfort. And then I had to be honest with myself even deeper to Lord that a lot about this. I have to be honest with myself a little deeper. And the Lord showed me. Okay, now that you know that this is true, were you really pursuing sex to serve your wife?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Was it really about her or was it about. About you? And so I just had to, like. The Lord had to, like, really just help. And he's still doing it. I'm not perfect.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's still doing the work. But I think it's just being honest with. When you be honest with the Lord, the next step is to automatically be honest with yourself. And that's the reason why I love, like, honestly with God. Because he reveals his will to you, but then he also reveals you. You.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I saw myself. I was like, oh, I'm selfish. Oh, I'm this. Oh, I'm that. It was hard, but I think it was necessary for our marriage to grow. I hope that made sense.

[B]

It made perfect. I just wanted to say with that, as someone who has had to and is still being called to lay down all kinds of things, I think the longer you walk with the Lord, he calls you to lay down good stuff, you know? And so you have to process what that feels like. And all the things. I think it's okay to grieve sin, to say, man, that really satisfied me in a particular way. And I am really afraid that you will actually not be the water that you say you are. And processing that unbelief with him. To say like this. Repentance takes courage. To say like, this has been a good drug, but not a good drug. Sin is fun until it's not. You know what I'm saying? And so I think giving him the. Like, giving him you even in that place, but also being willing to try him, you know, like, that's kind of been some of the process I've had when the Lord is like, nah, I don't want you to do that. Nah, I don't want you to. That's a freedom, but I don't want you to have it. It's like I'm being challenged to try you, you know? And when you try him, you'll be amazed at how much imagination you have now, because I do think sin limits your scope. You know what I'm saying? It narrows your freedom in such a way where the Lord is like, no, I've actually given you every good tree for food, and the enemy has had you focusing on the one. I said no. And so, yeah, I just wanted to act.

[A]

I have a question for both of y'. All.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I'm speaking for myself, but I'm also speaking for a lot of men that I've talked to. There is a lot of, I think, bitterness in men, if I'm just being honest, especially men in the body of Christ around the topic of sex, because I've heard men, and even I felt this way of these macho men in society being rewarded. And it seems like the men in the body of Christ were being rejected. Right? It can feel like, man, I honored the Lord my body. I did it the right way. And now I'm in this covenant relationship, and my wife doesn't want to have sex with me. But then when you look out in the world, all you see is men getting sex by the bolo. And we know like, the end of that is destruction.

[B]

Boatload is crazy. You know what I'm saying? We know the end of that.

[A]

We know the end of that is destruction.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think I don't want to guilt trip a woman to think that I have to give my husband sex so he won't be bitter with other men. Right. But I do think that what you're talking about earlier, it is understanding what your spouse, your husband goes through and vice versa. And so I guess my question to you guys is, how can a woman help connect with her man in that way of thinking? And how can she understand a man's struggles and what he sees in society and all the things.

[C]

You look at me, of course I am. Oh, my goodness. You know, as I hear you talk, like one of the lies that I hear underneath that is the greatest life, is a sexually fulfilling life, you know, like the greatest good you can have as a man is to have sex all the time, be wanted sexually. You know, it's like, where did we get that from? Because that's underneath that, you know, like, you've got your Bible. So maybe you can turn to Psalm 37.

[B]

I got you.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Because this is. And I'll respond to your question as far as what a wife can do, but this is ultimately an issue between God and a man. This is not a husband and wife issue, ultimately. So, like, read those first maybe five or six verses of Psalm 37.

[B]

Fret not yourself because of evildoers. Be not envious of wrongdoers, for they will soon fade like the grass and wither like the green herb. Trust in the Lord and do good. Dwell in the land to befriend faithfulness. Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord, Trust in Him, and he will act. He will bring forth your righteousness as the light and your justice as the noonday. Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for him. Fret not yourself over the one who prospers in his way, over the man who carries out evil devices.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, that's speaking right to that. And it's like, like we are taking the world's paradigm and saying, how come they're getting everything good?

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And that feels true for a while. There's another psalm, I can't remember the address right now, where the psalmist says, I was so discouraged by how people in the world were prostering, I almost gave up my faith. And then I went to the temple of The Lord and I remembered that all this stuff that we're chasing after is gonna be gone. You know, like, wait till you're 50 or 60 and see how fulfilling it was to have sex with 100 different people. You know, it feels like life now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But it's. Again, it's a discipleship journey of a man really confronting the lies he's been told over and over and over again. And God saying, do you really believe this is the most fulfilling path? You know, again, go talk to people in their 50s and 60s and 70s. Talk to the ones who have been on a journey of faithfulness with the Lord and with a spouse, and forge these journey of intimacy and a testimony and is poured into the next generation. And their lives are so much more fulfilling than the guy who had all the pleasures in the world. That looks good when you're 20 and 30, but it's like a tattoo. It doesn't look so good when you're 70. And so it's that perspective shift that God keeps calling us back to. As men and women, what do you really believe is the most fulfilling life? So as a wife, we want to do that own journey for ourselves. Cause we've got our own idols that we're chasing. And I found in my life, my husband's here, so he can validate this or not. But the greatest impact I can have on him and I've had on him is when he sees my. My own journey with the Lord and me being willing to put down my idols and wrestle with the Lord and work through my selfishness and my pride.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

That's what calls him to the throne. It's not me telling him he should do something different or, you know, it's. It's God. It's God, God and more God. And I think also, like, what you said is having that empathy, you know, just like we call men to have empathy for their wives, that we're complicated, we're sensitive, we need to be valued and treasured and protected like women. I needed to learn and to know the vulnerabilities of my husband and that his vulnerabilities and what connects with him is different and be sensitive to that and to love him well, even when it's difficult. Like, what does it look like to love my husband? Well, yeah, so it's that richer call for both of them.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. I have more, but I'm not gonna ask more questions.

[B]

I wish. I do have to pick up the kids, so I'm sorry, guys. Maybe we need to time these podcasts a little better. I'm not sure, but I wonder if you would be willing to close us out in prayer.

[C]

I would love to.

[B]

Just praying for a lot was said. I'm pretty sure a lot of thoughts and processing pain, fears, all types of questions people have that they probably haven't even answered or don't have answers for came up. And just praying for that.

[C]

Yeah, I would love to. Lord, thank you for being in this room with us. And you know that even when we talk about you in reference to sexuality, for a lot of us, that feels weird and that you have been excluded from these conversations for generations. And because of that, the enemy has reigned in our hearts with fear and with shame and with self and with pride and with lust. And God, I thank you that you are a God who is a redeeming God. You come after us in our brokenness, in our fear. You come after us with mercy, with loving kindness, with compassion, with endless patience. And I just pray for each person who might be wrestling with an aspect of the conversation we've had that you, by the tenderness and the work of your holy spirit, would show that man or woman what their next step is, Whether that's just to get on their knees and ask for help and repent, whether that's to have a conversation with their spouse or the person they're dating, or whether that's to take the step to seek discipleship or counseling, whatever it might be. Lord, we just want to say, Lord, that you have authority over all heaven and earth. And we ask that Satan would no longer own this conversation in our hearts, but that you would reclaim and be glorified in Jesus name. Amen.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Thank you, doctor Julie.

[C]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Thank you, doctor Julie. You taught me a whole lot.

[C]

We covered a lot.

[B]

We sure did. We will have all. All of Dr. Julie's resources in the show notes, so you can continue this conversation by connecting with her ministry, reading her books, following her listen to the

[A]

podcast, and for all the men, listen, go, go rub your white feet and don't expect nothing in return.

[B]

Amen. Bye, y'. All.

[A]

Yeah, so we were having a conversation after the podcast, and I told them, I'm gonna be honest with y'.

[C]

All.

[A]

I was like, I had 11 questions in my head at one time, and one of the questions I. I had, I didn't ask Julie because I was like, you know, I think it sounds stupid, but I just told him, and

[B]

he was like, that wasn't stupid.

[A]

And the question was, it's like, how much should we think about God in the act? I think, you know, because society has conditioned us to think about so many other things as it relates to sex. Think, like, literally thinking and meditating on God when it comes to sex doesn't pop up in our minds. And I'm wondering, maybe that's a lot of the issue.

[C]

It is.

[A]

And so. And so how much should we think about God in the act and what should it look like?

[B]

I like that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's a great question. Let me just say, first of all, I don't think you can think about God too much in the act. Like, you can't overdo that. In other words, there's no way you could do that too much because he created it, you know, But I think when we initially put that lens on it, people are like, oh, well, then we can't have fun. It's almost like I realized this in marriage. After about 10 or 15 years, I had in my head sort of this image that when my husband and I had sex, it was sort of like God was up in heaven. Like, oh, they're doing it again. Like, tell me when they're done.

[B]

It's Julie.

[A]

It is kind of weird to me. The imagine guy, like, okay, but looking down. Like, okay, but look at my. Look at my image bears.

[C]

All right, but okay. Song of Solomon 4. Leg up. Solomon's song of Solomon 4 and 5. Like, check it out. Song of Solomon 4 is probably the poetry that describes their wedding night. And it's. They're talking about how much they want each other, how much they enjoyed each other. Like, I've tasted your choice fruits and, like, all this stuff. That means we just had a really good time. And there's a presence in the room. In song of Solomon 5, where somebody says, eat, friends, drink, imbibe deeply. Enjoy this. Who do you think that somebody is?

[B]

God?

[C]

Yeah. So, like, he's there going, this is why I created this.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Like, I want you to have fun. Enjoy it deeply. So you read Psalm 139. Where can I go from your presence? Oh, if I close my door and have sex with my spouse, you're there. You're there. So he's there. So it's in our mind that says, somehow sex is dirty so God can't be present. Well, who taught us that was dirty? You know, like, I think we have to go back to. Where did we even start with these assumptions that God and sex belong in separate boxes of life?

[A]

That's so deep mischief.

[B]

And I would just add, like, I think you want him to be there just because for me, and I think for other my mind can be very busy so I can be present. But again, my mind isn't. And so I can start thinking about plans. And it's not that I'm not enjoying it. I don't want you to hear that. I'm just saying.

[A]

I was gonna say something.

[B]

You feel embarrassed?

[A]

No, I didn't feel embarrassed.

[B]

Okay. I'm just saying I could be feeling real productive in my. But I've also had times where I'm also feeling tormented. And so it's like there is a sense where you want him to be there to give you peace. You want him to be there to relieve you of the. Because the enemy is there too. And so it's like you want him to push back against the darkness so that you can be present with your spouse.

[A]

I think even thinking about this concept and thinking about this idea, it's truth really, what you just presented, it's not just an idea, but it's a truth. I think it kind of can speak to a man's ego to say no. You need God to help you in this area too. It's not just all about your masculinity and how well you are in the bedroom. God knows your wife emotions in your mind in ways that you don't. And so inviting him into that space, you need help in that space too.

[C]

It's a spiritual battleground, like you're saying. So why do we ever think we can win a spiritual battle by eliminating God's presence? You know, it's by inviting him.

[B]

Amen. Amen.

[A]

All right, we going for real this time.

[B]

Bye. Peace with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively Artwork by Hop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.

[C]

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