The Devil is a Liar: A Conversation on Making War Against Lies with Jennie Allen

Summary

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With The Perrys – Episode Summary

Episode Title:

The Devil is a Liar: A Conversation on Making War Against Lies with Jennie Allen
Release Date: March 9, 2026
Guests: Jennie Allen

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Episode Overview

In this candid, engaging, and spiritually charged episode, Preston and Jackie Hill Perry are joined by prolific author and Bible teacher Jennie Allen for a heart-to-heart on battling the lies we believe—often without realizing it. Centered around Allen’s new book, "The Lie You Don’t Know You Believe," the conversation dissects the origins of core lies, the generational and spiritual roots of deception, and practical, gospel-centered tools for breaking strongholds. The trio blends humor, vulnerability, and biblical depth to encourage listeners to expose the enemy's schemes and walk in newfound freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Parenting, Generational Patterns, & the Genesis of Lies

• The Perrys and Jennie bond over the chaos and joys of parenting, setting the stage for conversations about generational effects and family dynamics.
  • Quote: “I think she just saw how I strived and lived, and I think it was contagious.” – Jennie Allen (17:01)
• Jennie shares a significant moment with her daughter confessing feelings of defectiveness despite a loving, affirming upbringing (06:14–08:20).
  • Sets up the core question: Where do these deep-seated lies come from if not explicitly taught at home?

2. Core Lies & How They Take Root

• Jennie identifies three universal core lies as seen in both psychology and Scripture:
  • “I’m worthless, I’m unlovable, I’m helpless.” (10:19)
• These lies often begin in early childhood, shaped by events or even casual remarks.
  • Quote: “For a lot of people, it’s like six years old, something happened. And there was a belief set in motion at that time that feels true.” – Jennie Allen (10:33)

3. Spiritual Warfare & Storytelling

• The enemy's lies are subtle, rational, and often woven into the stories we tell ourselves from a young age (12:56–15:32).
  • “Lies feel rational. And the enemy’s good at that.” – Jennie Allen (13:21)
• Strongholds are beliefs held so long they bind us; often unnamed, they become the water we swim in.

4. Testimony & the Power of Words

• Preston and Jonathan share their own stories—wounds from childhood, spiritual bullying, and how mentors spoke new truths into their lives (17:09–19:47).
  • “She said, write how you feel. And I wrote how I felt. And she said, you’re poetic ... I was like, wow, my words impact.” – Jonathan (18:37)
• The conversation emphasizes how God sends people to uproot lies and prophesy destiny, even while the enemy tries to sow seeds of insecurity.

5. Digging to the Root of the Lie

• Jennie describes her own breakthrough through a late-night session with Lauren Tomlin, naming her core lie: “I am nothing.” (20:57–23:41)
  • The act of verbalizing it—and praying against it—began her journey to freedom.
  • Memorable Metaphor: “You can keep plucking the dandelions, but if there’s something core under it, it’s gonna keep growing back.” (24:19)

6. How to Identify Your Core Lie (26:22–29:25)

• Most people feel overwhelmed by a thousand lies, but breaking them down to the core helps.
• Naming your fear or lie in honest friendship and community is powerful: “I’m afraid that right now I’m speaking or acting out of my fear or out of my lie ... that acknowledgement ... changes a conversation.” – Jennie Allen (28:23)

7. The Devil's Schemes and the Nature of Lies

• Robust discussion on the devil as a schemer who interweaves a bit of truth in every lie, making it believable, and the importance of discerning God’s voice versus the enemy’s (29:27–31:51).
  • “There’s a little bit of truth in everything the enemy sells us, or we wouldn’t believe it.” – Jennie Allen (30:39)

8. The Two Kingdoms & Shifting Allegiance (32:49–36:33)

• True freedom comes from renouncing the "commodities" of the world (approval, control, performance) in favor of the values of the kingdom of God—faith and obedience.
  • “In this kingdom, that is the commodity. Faith and obedience are the commodities.” – Jennie Allen (36:03)

9. The Consistency and Subtlety of Lies

• Lies are relentless and ubiquitous, but the truth, while quieter, is powerful and liberating (34:44–36:18).
  • “The enemy has to just consistently throw lies at you, because the enemy knows how powerful the truth is.” – Jonathan (35:11)

10. Spiritual Attack, Holiness, & the Necessity of Obedience

• Holiness is both a protection from lies and the enemy, even when costly or misunderstood.
  • “Righteousness is this beautiful protection in your life. And ... you root that out. That’s a lot different than 20 years into an addiction.” – Jennie Allen (41:50)
• Obedience sometimes stirs more opposition but creates stamina to resist (45:47).

11. Exposing Darkness: Revival and the Power of Confession (49:22–53:52)

• Jennie shares extraordinary stories of revival on college campuses, deliverance from deep darkness, and the hunger of a new generation for the real gospel.
  • “They don’t know that God loves them. They think God’s disappointed in them, that all they see is their shame.” – Jennie Allen (52:12)
  • “It is revival. It’s the most miraculous thing I’ve ever seen.” – Jennie Allen (49:22)

12. Battling Lies: The Gospel & Jesus’ Example (54:42–62:41)

• Turning to the temptation of Jesus (Luke 4 & Matthew 4), the group unpacks how Jesus models resisting the enemy—rooted not just in verses but a kingdom-minded worldview.
  • “He was content giving up everything in this kingdom for the next. And that is surrender ... He replies with scripture and a worldview.” – Jennie Allen (55:37)

13. The Enemy’s Limited but Real Power

• The devil does have real, though limited, authority in this world—but is ultimately defeated (62:50–67:10).
  • “He’s not as strong as God, but he got strength ... They’re very smart.” – Jennie Allen (63:09)
  • “Satan is relentless. Satan is strong, Satan is smart, but he is also defeated.” – Preston Perry (66:56)

14. Spiritual Encouragement & Final Reflections

• Even as attack intensifies with obedience and revival, Christ’s victory, God’s nearness, and the necessity of community are highlighted.
• Powerful final word from Jennie: Grace, not shame, must shape our journey of exposing and uprooting core lies.
  • “You are not especially broken because you believe lies ... the reason the enemy comes for you is ‘cause you're loved.” – Jennie Allen (73:45, 74:20)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Generational Lies:
  “What if my perception of myself actually protects me? … But I don't want to be protected from God's freedom … from God's truth.” – Preston Perry (19:51)
• On Strongholds:
  “It's something that you have believed so long, it has bound you. … The scary part is you don’t name it or even know it’s there.” – Jennie Allen (15:01)
• On Community:
  “We don't do well by ourselves.” – Jennie Allen (29:01)
• On Warfare & Freedom:
  “If you are believing a lie all your life, wouldn’t you want to know it? The scary part is we don’t even know it.” – Jennie Allen (20:43)
• On the Devil’s Schemes:
  “He is scheming specifically against those that love God.” – Jennie Allen (29:50)
• Gospel Application:
  “I do not serve you in this world. I serve God and I wait on him and what he has for me.” – Jennie Allen (56:07)
• Encouragement:
  “You are not especially broken because you believe lies, you’re loved ... It’s a giant invitation: Okay God, I want to see myself the way you see me.” – Jennie Allen (74:20)

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Memorable Moments & Illustrations

• Moving Beyond Simple Bible Verses:
  Jenny confronts the limitations of “just slap a Bible verse on it,” advocating for understanding the story you’re living in and shifting kingdoms (14:39–15:01, 32:49–33:41).

• Dandelion Roots Analogy:
  Naming and praying against deep-rooted lies versus only repeatedly trimming surface-level symptoms (23:41–24:19).

• Stories of Revival:
  Jennie’s visceral accounts of spontaneous, desperate student baptisms and radical deliverances on campuses (49:22–53:52).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Personal Parenting/Lies in Childhood: 00:43–07:44
• Jennie’s Daughter and the Book’s Origin: 06:14–08:20
• The Three Core Lies: 10:19–10:40
• Defining Stronghold/Enemy Storytelling: 12:56–15:32
• Jonathan’s Journey & Mentorship: 17:09–19:47
• Jennie's Breakthrough - Lauren Tomlin Story: 20:57–23:41
• Identifying Core Lie/Community Confession: 26:22–29:25
• The Devil’s Schemes and Two Kingdoms: 29:27–36:33
• Revival & Spiritual Warfare on Campuses: 49:22–53:52
• Combatting Lies with Gospel Truth: 54:42–62:41
• Discussion on Enemy’s Power: 62:41–67:10
• Final Encouragement & Prayer: 73:45–76:21

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Final Note & Practical Takeaway

This episode calls listeners to radical honesty about the lies they have unknowingly built their lives upon, to lean into godly community, utilize scripture, and embrace spiritual disciplines—not as mere remedies, but as means to deep freedom in the kingdom of God. The path to freedom is through naming, exposing, and replacing lies with the gospel—the truth that sets us free.

Closing prayer for protection over Jennie Allen and all listeners seeking to wage war on their own hidden strongholds serves as a powerful, hope-soaked ending.

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Essential Listen For:
Anyone battling hidden insecurities, spiritual exhaustion, or cycles of defeat—especially those seeking gospel-rooted, practical tools to expose the devil’s schemes and live free.

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Transcript

[Preston Perry]

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[Jonathan McLeod]

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[Jenny Allen]

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[Jonathan McLeod]

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[Preston Perry]

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[Jonathan McLeod]

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[Preston Perry]

and every single one is Zero Sugar.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Tap the banner to learn more.

[Preston Perry]

Hello, Saint tonight.

[Jonathan McLeod]

What up with y'?

[Jenny Allen]

All?

[Preston Perry]

Hope you're well. Hope you're good to go.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I hope you got all the eye boogers out of your eye if it's the morning time. That's the thing.

[Preston Perry]

You know, we were just briefly talking about parenting, like 10 seconds ago. And I genuinely do feel like we're in a stage that. That is trying to send me into mild psychosis just a little bit.

[Jonathan McLeod]

It's just our children are just having, like. They're having different growth spurts, emotional. They just transitioning a lot.

[Preston Perry]

I feel like that's a part of it. Like, Sage and August are becoming better communicators. And so because they're better communicators, I'm

[Jonathan McLeod]

four and a five year old.

[Preston Perry]

They talking and they are like. Even yesterday, I tell August, you know. Cause he's potty training, but he doesn't know how to use the potty during the nighttime. So I'm like, go. He puts his own pull up on. Go and put your pull up on. You about to go to bed, Sage, she's on the way up the stairs. She feels away that he's not on the way up the stairs at the same time that she is. So she was like, august is in the pantry. I said, mind your business. August is in the pantry. He's like, yeah, mind your business, August. Be quiet. And it's just like, I feel like.

[Jonathan McLeod]

But you know what?

[Preston Perry]

I'm always quenching.

[Jonathan McLeod]

You know what I thought about?

[Preston Perry]

The father has to feel like this about the church. I'm always trying to, like, create peace.

[Jonathan McLeod]

You know what I thought about the other day? I was like. I was so encouraged because August has finally stopped being stubborn and started doing a potty training thing. Cause it was a wrestle or whatever. But I thought about it. Cause the other day, August was going upstairs and I told him to go to bed. And I'm like, why you not going to bed? He said, I gotta use the bathroom. And then I said, oh, okay. But this is new for me. That he's going in by himself to use the bathroom. And I'm Like, I thought about it. I was like, for 11 years we've had diapers in our life. Yeah, like for 11 years straight, I

[Preston Perry]

didn't think about that.

[Jonathan McLeod]

We've had, like, I. I haven't even been married to you.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I haven't been.

[Jonathan McLeod]

We had a honeymoon baby.

[Preston Perry]

I haven't been buying wipes.

[Jonathan McLeod]

So our whole marriage we've had diapers.

[Preston Perry]

You're trying to help me rejoice.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I'm trying to help you see the other side of the coin.

[Preston Perry]

I understand.

[Jonathan McLeod]

You know what I'm saying? No more diapers, no more Boo Boo.

[Preston Perry]

I get it.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I just.

[Preston Perry]

I just don't know how to.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I don't know if you ever wiped your. You wiped your butt and Boo Boo got on your little pinky. That's nasty. No more of that.

[Preston Perry]

Pinky is wildly specific, but speaking of that, I guess we can. Hey, Jenny.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Hey, Jenny.

[Jenny Allen]

That was the transition to me.

[Preston Perry]

Your jacket is brown and we know you had Boo Boo on your hands once upon a time.

[Jenny Allen]

I have had a lot of Boo Boo.

[Preston Perry]

That's what I'm saying. Did you?

[Jenny Allen]

And it did get on my pinky because you got four and with a boy. This was new for you guys. That pee. That sprays when you're changing.

[Preston Perry]

I only got sprayed one time.

[Jenny Allen]

You did not. I got my son loves. It's like he knew as a baby, like I'm a sprayer.

[Jonathan McLeod]

One time I was changing August when he was one and I saw his face, he's about to be. I said, you better not pee.

[Preston Perry]

He said, okay.

[Jenny Allen]

Oh my gosh.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I said, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

No, it's. Yeah. It happened one time and I had the diaper kind of like cropped up there and so I caught it before it hit me in the face.

[Jonathan McLeod]

No more Boo Boo on the pinky.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jonathan McLeod]

We rejoice.

[Preston Perry]

How are you today?

[Jonathan McLeod]

How you doing, Miss Jenny?

[Jenny Allen]

I couldn't be better hanging out with you guys.

[Preston Perry]

That's cute.

[Jenny Allen]

Talking about poop.

[Preston Perry]

Uh huh. You came to us from Dallas, Texas.

[Jenny Allen]

Dallas, Texas.

[Preston Perry]

Ain't that where you are?

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Are you born. Were you like, raised?

[Jenny Allen]

Arkansas. I'm Arkansas.

[Preston Perry]

Okay.

[Jenny Allen]

Years of my life. And then I married a Texan and he made me live in Texas. And I do love it now. Now I'm a Texan. We've been there forever. We raised our kids there and now they're moving back and I guess that's where we're all gonna live.

[Preston Perry]

Moving back home like the Cosby Show.

[Jenny Allen]

Like they're moving back to Dallas.

[Preston Perry]

Okay.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Oh, wow.

[Preston Perry]

And did you pray for that?

[Jenny Allen]

Did I pray for it? I manipulated that. I forced that. I all.

[Preston Perry]

But how many children do you.

[Jenny Allen]

I got four.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Four?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. What's the ages?

[Jenny Allen]

17 up to 26. We started really young and yeah. Knocked that thing out.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I'm very curious to see what our life will look like when our four children are in that, you know, older like that.

[Jenny Allen]

You'll love it. I couldn't love it more. Yeah, they're my best friends. I mean, we hang out all the time.

[Preston Perry]

I love that.

[Jenny Allen]

It's so fun.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, that's good.

[Jenny Allen]

I dreaded every season. I thought, oh no, they're going to leave, they're going to go to college. But it was so fun. It was like watching a character from a TV show you love, like have a spinoff show, you know, and then you go on that show and you love that show. Like that shows all and you have new characters and all this. I mean, I loved college. I loved everything. It's so fun. But this is the best. Cause now no more boo boo on the pinky. Now they're like, well, not yet. Of course they'll reproduce. Before I know it, you know, we'll be back there.

[Jonathan McLeod]

But my 11 year old the other day, she said, daddy, you just want your girls to grow up so we can cook for you.

[Jenny Allen]

Okay. Yeah, take that.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, I don't really like that.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Cause I made a joke one day. Oh, y' all gonna cook for me or whatever?

[Preston Perry]

No. Maids? No, absolutely not.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I said, no.

[Preston Perry]

We want you to grow up and go make disciples.

[Jonathan McLeod]

That's not all. Yeah, that stuff like that. But y' all gonna kick me omelets and stuff too.

[Preston Perry]

Jenny Allen has another book. Cause she got about 26 of em. You understand what I'm saying? Jenny got a.

[Jonathan McLeod]

You are a book writing machine library.

[Preston Perry]

You understand what I'm saying?

[Jenny Allen]

There's been some br. In my life.

[Preston Perry]

I love to see it. It. It is called the lie you don't know you believe means there's some blindness, there's some deception, there's some. Some nearsightedness. Of all the things you could write about, why write about this? And I don't want to ask that, like in like boring podcaster way, but like genuinely.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Getting into this kind of territory is not people. Something people want to do.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah, it's real. You know, it was kind of forced on me. And I'm sitting across from my daughter actually in the Atlanta airport, and she starts just spilling all these feelings she has of feeling like I'm unusually broken. I'm defective. And this is my. At the time, she's 20 years old, and she is phenomenal. I mean, she is making disciples. She is in love with Jesus. She married the most unbelievable man. They're building their life together. They. She's a photographer. She's really good at it. And everywhere we go, people stop her. And they're like, kate, you know, everybody knows her. I mean, she's worked hard at living a really beautiful life. And so she's sitting there telling me, like, I just feel so defective, like, I don't think God can use me, and just saying all these phrases that are just breaking my heart. And honestly, it doesn't even make me sad. It makes me angry. And so I'm, like, ready to go preach at her, you know, and fix this. And she stopped me and said, you're my mom and you're supposed to feel that way. I don't want to hear it. And I was like, that, to me, meant she thinks it's true. Like, she won't even hear me tell her that's a lie because she actually thinks it's true. She's defending it. She's, like, manning up and standing by it, you know.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

And so that day, I had to, you know, well, of course. And I'm convicted at the same time because it's also the lie that I have believed and still do. Honestly, I don't know if I've ever fought my core lie like I did writing this book. It's just still here, you know? And I'm not saying it certainly is not what it used to be. Now I can name it, now I can pray against it. Now I can know where it's coming from. I don't defend it anymore. I fight against it, but it still creeps in. And so I think that that was where I just said, I've gotta look at this. I mean, what happened to me that day was I had all these questions. I was like, okay, do I believe in generational sin?

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

Have I, like, passed this down? Cause we raised her totally differently than I was raised. I mean, it was celebration of all things. Like, she walks in, she's like, I came in 21st. You know, we're like, yeah. You know, we were not, like, super critical people. Like, we just. We celebr. We love their personalities. Like, it wasn't a place where we made them feel that way. So I'm like, where did she get this? Like, her daddy delights in her. Like, she grew up with a dad that, like, thinks she's the greatest thing that ever happened to the earth. Where did she get this? And so that. Honestly, just a lot of times I'll write a book just because I'm curious. I want to know. And so for me, this was digging into, where'd this come from? How rampant is it? Do we all kind of have one core lie? And I didn't know in the beginning if we did, and I strongly believe now that we do. And it's probably one that you don't even know because it's the way you've thought since you were five years old.

[Jonathan McLeod]

When you start to ask yourself those questions, did you think about or reflect about your childhood, the lives that you struggled with when you were younger?

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, it was 12 years old. This is what I remember most. 12 years old. I'm sitting with my dad. My dad loved us. My dad tucked us in every night. My dad did not mean to do what was going to follow in that conversation, but he just started asking me questions about middle school and boys and all these, you know, grades and all these things. And all I heard was, these are marks that you need to hit. And so from that point on, I just. I think I lived feeling like I can't quite hit the mark. And so when I've looked, you know, I mean, mental health, I know we all care about that a lot. And when I've looked into and done the research, it's like, man, like, all humans have the same three core lies. And it's, I'm worthless, I'm unlovable. I'm helpless.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

And so those three things, you know, and again, we know where this comes from, right? There's an enemy. But for me, yeah, I mean, I look back at my childhood, and for a lot of people, it's like six years old, something happened. And there was a belief set in motion at that time that that feels true.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Wow.

[Preston Perry]

I hope you're making time for your annual checkups and doctor visits and labs and blood work and all the things that tell us what is happening inside of our bodies. We have four children, so I want to stay healthy for them, but I always don't look forward to going to a checkup because I don't like to be checked up. None of us do what you do before your appointment does matter. So before your next checkup, make the one healthy change you can make that your doctor will notice or you will get your money back. That change is field of greens. Doctors today look beyond your calendar age. They also look at your Biological age, how healthy your cells are and how vital your organs are or how healthy your vital organs are. Yeah. You understand what I'm saying? Field of Greens was designed with all of that in mind. Each fruit and vegetable is doctor selected to support your cells, heart, lungs, kidneys, and healthy weight.

[Jonathan McLeod]

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[Preston Perry]

Go into your next physical confident with one scoop once a day, and you're done. Make Field of Greens your one smart change this year. In addition to reading your Bible and praying and fasting, check out the university study and get 20% [e-mail] promo code. Perry. That's fieldofgreens.com promo cold period. Cuz what's interesting is like having a conversation with your dad, it wouldn't. You wouldn't think it would be that monumental. You know what I'm saying?

[Jenny Allen]

Oh, he. He didn't even remember it.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, but it's like your interpretation of the events and like how it shaped the way you viewed yourself and how you move through life became way bigger than he intended, than you anticipated. And to me, that has to say that there's a huge spiritual dynamic at play here. You know what I'm saying? But before we get to spiritual warfare fair, because we are going to talk about. You can't talk about lies without talking about the devil. I'm curious to know, because, you know, Bible, how you see the core lives, like, how do. What do you think is the correlation between the core lives of helpless, worthless, loveless being made manifest even in Genesis 3? Like, what do you think is the relationship?

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah, I mean, one, we have all given license to the voice of the enemy. Right. And so when you look at the devil in Genesis, you know, he introduces himself and he's cunning. I mean, he doesn't show up. And Adam and Eve are scared of him or pushing back against him. He shows up as a friend. He shows up as someone helping them think rational thoughts. You know, lies feel rational.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

And the enemy's good at that. He's good at just making it seem like this makes perfect sense. This is a normal question. I promise you to some degree it. Eve was falling for what he said and not naive, because I believe she was absolutely complicit. God had been clear, do not eat of this tree. So she was complicit. But I promise you, she didn't feel like it was a big deal that day.

[Preston Perry]

Watch your mouth, Jenny Allen. Goodness gracious. Go ahead.

[Jenny Allen]

She didn't think it was a big deal. And in that, all of us.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

And I think that's why this felt important, because I was like, if my daughter. And I certainly. I wrote it for her, there's no doubt. But I also wrote it for me because I was still like, why can't I shake this? So I'd written Get out of youf Head. Right. And that book, everybody likes that book. Cause that book is simple. That book is interrupt a thought, you have a choice. Interrupt it, be grateful. Instead of cynical. Right. Like, it's a think this instead of this. Everybody likes that book. The problem is when there's a stronghold that has been there since forever, decades in your life, that doesn't shift as easily. You can't just interrupt a thought like that.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

And so that's why I knew I would write this book when I wrote get out of youf Head. Because it was. To me, it was like the thing missing from that book. Because it works until it doesn't work. And when it doesn't work, what do you do? Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Can you define stronghold for those who may have a thought about what it is that it isn't?

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah. I mean, in this context, I'll just say it is something that you have believed for so long that it has bound you. And it has bound you where you. You know, what's really scary about a stronghold is one that you don't name or even knows there. You know, that's the scary part of this because it's just part of your psyche. It's just part of the way you think. Because we're story people, right? We live in a story, we think in a story. We experience life through story. And a story was told. And that's what the enemy did. He told a story.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

It's crazy because we're all essentially products of our past experiences. And I didn't realize how many lies I believed about myself until I started to go to therapy and my therapist begin to give me language and to begin to help me to explore all the lies. I just remember, you know, when I first got into ministry, just having this lie that I just sounded stupid when I talked in front of people. And then my therapist helped me realize that. I remember when I was 10 years old, I was talking publicly and my dad was looking at Me like, he was ashamed from that moment. I think the devil tried to plant a seed that. You sound stupid, you know, But I think oftentimes I'm glad we get into spiritual warfare, because the enemy, the devil, he doesn't know all things, but he still knows information. Right. And so I think the devil tries to plant seeds that will stop us from being who God called us to be.

[Preston Perry]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

That's the problem. That's the cost. I mean, Preston, what if it stopped there? What if you really. You wouldn't be doing this.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

I mean, think of all of the things that you have done because you defeated that lie.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

Like, that's a motivation. It's certainly not the only one. I mean, another motivation is we don't want our kids to inherit what we've believed. So I don't think Kate looked at me and felt my pressure to be more or my disappointment over her. I think she watched how I was living.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

I think she just saw how I strived and lived, and I think it was contagious.

[Preston Perry]

Sheesh.

[Jonathan McLeod]

That's great. That's great.

[Jenny Allen]

Okay, so I want to ask you a question. Back to that Preston discretion. I mean, 10 years old. How did it shift, man?

[Jonathan McLeod]

You know, long story short, my mom and my dad divorced when I was 4, and I didn't see my dad until I was 4, till I was 10. Like, she just left. And my dad wasn't in my life. The first year he get back in my life, like, a couple of weeks later, he gave me this look. I'm like, anybody I wanted to be proud of me is you. Like, don't look at me like this, you know, wow.

[Jenny Allen]

And it's just a look. It wasn't even a conversation.

[Jonathan McLeod]

It wasn't even a conversation. I think what shifted, I put it on social media the other day that I'm really looking. I'm still looking for this lady named Ms. Magness.

[Preston Perry]

She.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And it's crazy how God used just people in your life or whatever. And so, long story short, my uncle was murdered. He was the man I was living with at the time. He was kind of like a dad figure in my life. My dad, my natural father, was just getting back into my life, and I was just bad in school, fighting. You say something wrong to me, I would slap you. That was just how I was. I was just very hurting little boy because of my uncle's death. And they assigned all the bad kids mentors, and so she would shadow me in class or whatever, and she really helped my Behavior because she just cared for me. She asked me questions when nobody else did. She was investigative. And she said, write how you feel. And I wrote how I felt. And she said, you're poetic. She's like, you. She's like, you're using.

[Jenny Allen]

How old were you then?

[Jonathan McLeod]

I was 11.

[Jenny Allen]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And she was like, you're using metaphors and you're using language in ways that I've never seen a kid like you use language. And then she said, write me a poem. And I wrote her a poem. And I wrote her a poem, and I said it to her at her desk, and she just started crying. And I was like, wow, my words impact. So it was literally a year after my dad gave me that look where I was like, my words actually impact so much.

[Jenny Allen]

That's amazing.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And I think. And then she told me, you're a poet. And she gave me a book by this woman named Gwendolyn Brooks. And it was the first time I fell in love with language. And I was.

[Preston Perry]

That's why we need good teachers.

[Jenny Allen]

Amen.

[Preston Perry]

Ye.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And so mentors.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And so I think God used that to help uproot a lot of that lie. He didn't uproot it all.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

But uprooted a lot of the lie. No, you have a voice. And it was already prophesied by my grandmother, who went to be with the Lord when I was five years old. She came to my mom and she said, the Lord showed me a vision of Preston traveling the world, giving the gospel and creative ways. When I was five, and my mama told me that my whole life, and I was like, oh, I stutter. I don't know this is going to be true. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Preston Perry]

I love that. Yeah. I don't even know where to go from there.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

I think when it comes to what you carried and carry on occasion and what you were carrying and this idea of stronghold, I'm just thinking about, like, I could see somebody saying, what is the big deal? You know, what is at stake? What if this perception of myself actually protects me or makes sense? You know what I'm saying? And I think what is at stake is Christ in the sense of, like, a stronghold protects me from things that are outside of me. But I don't want to be protected from God's freedom. I don't want to be protected from God's power. I don't want to be protected from God's truth. And so we have to do that exchange so that we can walk in all that God has called us to walk in. You know what I'm saying?

[Jonathan McLeod]

That's good. That's good.

[Jenny Allen]

If you are believing a lie all your life, wouldn't you want to know it? Like, that's the scary part is we don't even know it. And so can you share the story

[Preston Perry]

about your conversation with your friend Lauren where you discovered some of that stuff?

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah, yeah, it was actually Lauren Tomlin.

[Preston Perry]

Okay.

[Jenny Allen]

And not to name drop. I didn't name drop in the book, but I'll name drop here. It just said Lauren, Lauren Tomlin. And I'm saying her name because I want to honor her. I mean, what she did for me, like, I had heard her reputation. We got to be together, hang out somewhere, and she had, you know, her reputation is that she prays for people and they experience freedom. And so I just wanted to learn from her. I was just like, hey, I want you to teach me what you do, because I have talked to people that it has changed their life. And so she goes, well, why don't we just do it? You know? Like, I'm not gonna teach you. Like, let's just do it for you. And I was like, hey, you know, I'm good. I'm good. I don't have any problems, you know, but we did it. And, man, we were up till like, 1 2am and it was wild. And so basically, she just asked me questions. I mean, it was kind of good therapy. I mean, she's just getting me to talk, and she's just seeing, like, what have you believed? And she gets me to say this line that I am nothing. And I remember around that time, that Marvel movie, I'm a big Marvel fan. And the endgame, that movie, it just. Oh, no, the one before it had just come out. I can't remember what it's called anyway. Not a Marvel fan. Well, in that movie, the way that evil. The movie ends with really sad, dark ending is they kind of evaporate, like, they turn into dust. And I couldn't watch that. I left the theater, I was, like, weeping, because that was my worst fear, is that everything I'm doing is meaningless. I am meaningless. God doesn't see me. I felt like the envelope that fell behind the desk that, you know, I was like, I don't know that it's all real. I just. And they said, we're talking on a core level because I'm not a good faker. So I preach right about Jesus and the opposite of everything I just said, and I mean it. And there's still a Part of me down really, really deep that came from things that I couldn't control in my life. And I really did believe that I was worthless and that nothing would matter. And when I said it out loud, oh, it was powerful because I hadn't. I had never said a line like that out loud until that night. And when I said it out loud, we prayed against it. It wasn't like fancy prayers. It was nothing, you know, woo, woo. It was just really strong, authoritative prayers against this lie. But I walked away. And for me, just knowing that that was in there was helpful.

[Preston Perry]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

And so then. So think of, like, all the times you just have a little fleeting, insecure thought, or just a fearful. You know, you're heading into something that you should be excited about. You kind of feel dread, you know, I don't know why I feel dread about that. Think of those little feelings like that. That's all coming out of this core thing. And so, you know, when you think of. I remember she told me, I called her when I was working on this book. I was like, I just want you to know you inspired this book. She's another one. And we talked about just dandelions and how they pop up and there's all these things, and you can keep plucking the dandelions, but if there's something core under it, it's gonna keep growing back.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

And so you gotta find the root. And so this is that. For me,

[Preston Perry]

the story of Easter is the most beautiful story ever told. But sometimes, because we know it so well, we move quickly past it and forget what it actually cost. What if this year you took a second and slowed down, if the tree could speak, invite you to experience the crucifixion from a perspective no one has heard, which is the Wooden Cross itself, written by Tim Tebow. It's beautifully illustrated, and every page invites you to pause to reflect and feel the weight of that moment. It's a way to experience Easter differently, intentionally, thoughtfully, and with a fresh perspective. Even if you've heard the story a hundred times, this book will help you see it with fresh eyes. What you get from this work will stick with you long after you put it down. And you'll want to pick it up year after year as you prepare to celebrate Easter.

[Jonathan McLeod]

As a poet, I personally love personification. The ability for somebody that's creative to put a human aspect and relate it to something non human. And I think he did this perfectly with this book. I mean, it's so creative to speak as the tree. It gives us a Fresh and a new perspective. And it makes us to think about the cross in a way that we didn't think about it before. So kudos to you, Tim Tebow. This is dope.

[Preston Perry]

Step inside the story of the Crucifixion, hear the witness and experience Easter like never before. With if the Tree Could Speak, available on Amazon. We encourage you to check it out. If the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow, available on Amazon. Or you can peep the link in the show notes.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I think that's my question, you know, like. Cause when you think about these laws that we've had with us for decades, you know, that we grew up believing, how does the cause. I'm a visual person, and so I'm thinking about somebody like, digging for the core, digging for that core lie. Because you could deal with a whole bunch of manifestations of why you believe what you believe. But sometimes it's hard to, like, how did you get to the core of that lie? How did you find it? And how do people find it?

[Jenny Allen]

It simplifies it a little when you realize, you know, and I heard this from. Actually heard it from a friend, a counselor friend, that told me, you know, there's three core lives. And I didn't believe it. Then I go research it. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is psych 101. When I realized that it helped a lot, I didn't believe her when she said it because I was like, I have a thousand lies. Like, I don't have one, I don't have three. I have a thousand. And when I saw it in black and white, that helped me because I thought, okay, that helps it come down to a handful rather than a thousand. And so one thing that I needed to do early in the book, and I knew it was just help people find it because it's not really simple. And honestly, most people hear those words, I'm like, I don't know if I relate to those words, but they do relate to not feeling like they're enough. They do relate to being afraid to do the things God's put in their heart. You know, there's a lot of things that surround those things that just. I mean, like yours. It wasn't, I'm helpless, but it was, I don't speak well, it was something like that. But that manifests itself in a deeper way, you know, And I just think if we can figure out, like, what's driving us, then we can, you know, I mean, even right now. So this year, if you can believe it, God is calling me to do some things that are really uncomfortable for me, and I really feel like they're from him. And I know myself, and I don't wanna work and strive out of my woundedness. And so I get to now, because I'm aware of it. I get to take that to people that know me and love me. And we get to process it together so that I don't keep running and striving to hit a mark to prove that I'm finally worth something. Like, I don't wanna live that way. I still wanna do what God's called me to do. And I think he still called me to do things that could look like striving. But I gotta know what my motivation is, and I've gotta know that I'm doing this out of love and not out of woundedness.

[Preston Perry]

Wow, that's excellent.

[Jenny Allen]

And so it's a good. It just helps to know it and to name it and go, okay. I tend to. And I'll use this line all the time with friends. I'll say, I'm afraid that right now I'm speaking or acting out of my fear or out of my lie. And that you can't believe how that changes a conversation, that acknowledgement. Yes. It just helps. It's like, oh, yeah, Jenny, I know you. I know you can tend to go into that.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Okay, that's good.

[Jenny Allen]

And then it makes sense. It helps the conversation turn into something real.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And it's great that you're having a conversation with people and not yourself.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right. We don't do well by ourselves.

[Preston Perry]

Amen.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I think talking about lies. Nobody lies to us more than we do. And I think like confessing things with other people, I think especially godly people, yes, they can help you not. Not coddle you, not lie to you, but they can help you combat the lies of truth while at the same time keeping you accountable. So that's. That's. That's big.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. What is a lie?

[Jenny Allen]

A belief that is shaping you. Let's. Can we talk about the devil? That would help.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

I don't like that, man. But we gotta air him out.

[Jenny Allen]

Let's air him out. I mean. Yeah. I mean, my middle school youth pastor, I'll never forget it. He was like, we don't talk about the devil too much.

[Preston Perry]

Oh, we got to.

[Jenny Allen]

And now I'm like, we.

[Jonathan McLeod]

He's the father of them.

[Jenny Allen]

He's scheming against us. He is scheming specifically against those that love God. And so there. I mean, if you think of strategy and scheming and war. And he's making battle plans like we should be reverse making plans against him. And so, you know, I've just seen, you know, what is a lie. It's a scheme. It's a scheme to derail your whole life. It's a scheme that you would believe something untrue. Now, I mean, I think it's important to talk about that. There's a little bit of truth in everything the enemy sells us or we wouldn't believe it. Especially strong believers that know their Bibles, right?

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

So there's a little bit of truth to the fact that I am worthless. Right? I mean, scripture tells me I'm a blade of grass, you know, and I'm a grasshopper, you know, like, these are the things that. So there's. Yeah, there's an element. But then in other places, it says that I'm the delight of God. And it says that God has plans for me and prepared them in advance before I was even formed in my mother's womb. And so there's a way bigger story that says I'm invaluable to God, that I'm so valuable that he would die for me. So, you know, but there's enough of a truth to go, yeah, and we do this as Christians, right? We're like, I'm just a sinner. I'm just. I don't matter, you know, don't look at me, look at Jesus. We say things like that all the time. And. And I know what's behind it, and it's true. We don't do well with glory. Like, we're not made to carry it. We're not suited for it, you know, so that's. I know that that's behind that, and that's true. But also, we can take it so far, like everything and just all of a sudden be. Because the problem is, if we are worthless, then we won't ever do the things God called us to do because we will be despondent. And that's not what he wants. That's not what God wants.

[Preston Perry]

Because to your point, it is that work of identifying what is true and untrue all at the same time. Because even when you spoke to I'm not enough, it's like, yeah, we're finite, so for sure, and we don't measure

[Jenny Allen]

up on our own.

[Preston Perry]

You're not Alpha and Omega. But when that not enoughness moves you into compensating by finding your own fig leaves instead of being covered in Christ, it's at that point that I'm also Walking not just in a lie, but unbelief, which is offensive to the Lord. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, I think, identifying the lie and the truth and moving into the scriptures and saying, okay, I'm weak and you're strong. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, I feel worthless, but I'm also made in the image of God. It's both. Yeah, we gotta do that work, right?

[Jenny Allen]

To lie beneath the lie, which is a whole chapter in there, is that I could have control. I'm not helpless. I could have control. Well, that's not true.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Jenny Allen]

That's another lie.

[Preston Perry]

That's good.

[Jenny Allen]

You know, the lie under I am worthless is I could finally matter on my own. The lie under I'm unlovable is I finally could make everybody like me and get the approval that I'm so craving. And so the way I set up the book, you know, I realized pretty quickly, I'm like, I can't just. You know, I already tried the Bible, the slapping the Bible verse on things, and it just. I'm not saying that you don't need it, because for goodness sakes, like, I fight lies with truth every day, but I believe the truth will set you free. Is a bigger truth than a Bible verse. It's understanding the two kingdoms. It's understanding that there's two princes of two kingdoms. It's understanding that there's oxygen and there's commodities in both kingdoms. And when you really shift kingdoms, that's when you get free.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Sheesh. Break that down.

[Preston Perry]

Keep going.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

So truth setting you free is. I don't have to live. If you're gonna live for this world under the prince of this world, you need to measure up. And if you're gonna live in this world, you need to figure out how to get approval. That's all you've got.

[Preston Perry]

Mm.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Sheesh.

[Jenny Allen]

And you better control everything that you can. And when you can't, you're in trouble.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

Because all you have is this world and the things in it. And that's where I was. Like, I have tasted another way, but it is waking up to a totally different kingdom and learning it. And that kingdom is not getting fed to us. Right? Every day, the kingdom of this world is getting fed to us. You need to matter. You need to be important. And it is exhausting. And even on your most important day, it will never be enough.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

And so that's the power of his lie is he'll make you chase something Your entire life, never get it or get it and realize it wasn't enough.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And it's so exhausting because I hope this makes sense. Like, lies are so consistent. It seemed like you are consistently hit with lies more than you're reminded of the truth at times, always. But one thing I've learned about the truth, the truth doesn't have to be loud. The truth doesn't have to be like, beat you over the head. Because when it comes, it literally, it does a work that lies can do. So the enemy has to just consistently throw lies at you, because the enemy knows how powerful the truth is. Right. And so I think just understanding that, like, understanding the kingdom of darkness is always at work because the work of the kingdom of God is just so potent. And so, you know, when it comes,

[Jenny Allen]

it changes well, and it's the only thing that sets you free. So let's say that it's a day that I'm striving, right? So, I mean, no doubt, like, the day this book comes out, I'm gonna look at the Amazon numbers like, I'm. There's a day, you know, and I'm gonna hope that it hits a mark on that day. I will look at those numbers, and then no matter what they say, you know, in plenty or in need, I will know that my confidence comes that I did this out of obedience. I didn't do this to hit New York Times. I didn't do it for these reasons. I did it out of obedience. And if it helps 100 people, if it helps one, that is good. Because in this kingdom, that is the commodity. Faith and obedience are the commodities. And so it brings me. It pulls me out, it yanks me out on a day like that to go, okay, I don't have to live for this. I'll be tempted to. My brain will run and spin.

[Preston Perry]

That's beautiful.

[Jenny Allen]

But I get to leave it. And I get to go over here and go, nope, My worth isn't coming from my success. And the only reason that's true is because there's a whole other kingdom that I'm living for that's gonna go on way longer than this one.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. In the path of obedience, you know, and loving the truth and loving the Lord and submitting to his lordship and authority, there's always going to be an enemy, you know, who is really consistent with communicating the same thing, that he just want to wear you down until you finally surrender to his will. And I say that because I had a sermon at Passion recently where I talked about how, like, from the beginning of Jesus ministry to the end of his ministry was the same assault on how, because he is this, he should save himself. Because you're the Son of God, because you are the Christ, because you are the Messiah, you should save yourself. Which is an attack, which is. It's demonic. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, man, this carried him throughout his whole ministry. But he kept fighting and he kept surrendering and kept like, you know, me and Jesus. My question with you is, when you started to discover your core lies, what did the opposition look like? What was that resistance?

[Jenny Allen]

It heated up. I mean, it heated up.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

I think I'm more tempted in some ways than ever to fall for it. And. And yet, you know, a lie is actually an invitation to need God, because a lie produces fear, a lie produces insecurity. And those are always invitations to go, I need God. I can't do this by myself. And so that's how I see it now. That's totally different. It's not that they don't hit me. It's that now I know where to go and I know what to do. And I'll notice it usually in my body. It's usually for me, it's my stomach or my jaw. Like, I'll grit my teeth or I'll feel like a little anxious butterflies in my stomach. And I've learned to notice it quickly and to notice it in such a way that I don't want to live in that. I remember I was talking to one of my spiritual mentors recently, and I said, I mean, this is so bad that I can't. I don't even know. Let's just talk about it. Because I think it's really deceitful in my brain that I believe this, but I'm still working through this one, that I'm always gonna struggle with this. And is that a gift? Because it makes me need God like a thorn. Yeah. And, you know, he was kind of feisty, and he was like, this isn't true. This isn't what God says. And I don't mean struggle with it like it's still a stronghold. It's not like it doesn't define me. It doesn't limit me. I know what to do with it. I know how to name it. I know how to bring it into a Tuesday night conversation with my girlfriends. It is not a stronghold anymore. There's no doubt.

[Preston Perry]

Praise God.

[Jenny Allen]

And I'm still getting pinged with it.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Wow.

[Jenny Allen]

And so what do I do with that? And. And is it gonna Always be this way. And it's funny, like as he's prayed for me and other people have prayed for me, I have experienced more and more freedom. So I do believe we can get to a place where these things are not plaguing us. It's like a taunt. Cause actually you brought up the wilderness. That's what I studied. Like when I went to the Bible, I was like, okay, where was there a full on confrontation between Jesus and the devil? We need to know this is a full on confrontation with the devil. So how do deal with it? And that was rich, you know, I mean that was the place.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, Quickly. Yeah. Like Luke 4 is a thing for me. Cause I'm like, this is what it's like to one bear up under temptation. Like to enter like even the Lord's Prayer, like praying, lord, please deliver me from temptation, don't deliver me into evil. All the stuff. But there are times where it feels like you are entering into temptation. And I don't mean that in the sense of opening up doors for sin. I mean being under such attack and assault emotionally and mentally and socially, where it's just like, lord, can the man leave? And I love that at the end of that passage it says, and the devil left him. You understand? So there are times where the Lord I think will also relieve you and deliver you.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right.

[Preston Perry]

From those seasons. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, go ahead.

[Jonathan McLeod]

No, I was just going to say like, I think, I think exposing the devil is very good because I think we need to expose the lies of the devil.

[Preston Perry]

I can't. Right.

[Jonathan McLeod]

But I also think it's a reality that the devil often partners with our flesh.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And I think we can't talk about the devil without talking about our flesh. Because I think a lot of times when he lies to us, our flesh and the devil is often friends. Right. He's telling you these people don't love you. It's like, it's probably something in you that doesn't really want to trust people because you're trying to protect yourself and you don't want God to protect you, you know, and so like talk about all the way in which we can like kill our flesh. So the enemy, I guess, doesn't have that much to work with.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Because it's like. Does that make sense? Yes.

[Jenny Allen]

Oh, it's scary.

[Preston Perry]

I think people underestimate how much holiness and righteousness is also worth it.

[Jenny Allen]

A protection. Yes, it is a. Yes. Righteousness is this beautiful protection in your life. And I mean, not that any of us achieve it, but we fight for it. Right. Like, we notice when we're, you know, coveting or lusting. Yeah, we notice it early. And you root that out. That's a lot different than 20 years into an addiction.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

So protecting yourself early and pursuing holiness. I mean, I have seen. I have gotten weird about it where I'm like, okay, Lord, I did this the other day. This was like, last week. I sensed a lot of resistance in my life. I saw I was kind of falling back into worldly mindset. And I was in my car, and I just. Out loud, I'm like, okay, God, I will sell anything I need to sell. I will repent of anything I need to repent of. And I literally walk through my life and I'm like, I will get rid of anything I need to get rid of. You gotta show me. And he convicted me of something, and. And I laid it down, and it had been something small. It wasn't a big, big sin. It was. He had. He had whispered something. I was supposed to give up. And I just kept picking it back up. And it wasn't evil. It was just, you know, it was just. I mean, I'll just tell you. It was social media. And it was like. And I was like, oh, okay. So I cut it out again. And it was like, oh, okay. I feel that freedom come back. Now, that is a small picture. Can you imagine how much. You know when you're talking of strong. But let's be real. That's not a small thing. That's a stronghold thing right now. Right. That's where a lot of our lies are coming from.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

But then, you know, there's all these other things, too.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Because I got a question for both of y'. All.

[Preston Perry]

Right?

[Jonathan McLeod]

So, like, do you think that disobedience is the number one thing that gives the enemy access to begin with, to even lie to us? Because I've. I've had something like that similar happen to me where the Lord, when I came to Jack, and I was like, I feel like the Lord is telling me to do something crazy. Like, I had something in my possession, and I felt like the Lord was telling me to burn it.

[Preston Perry]

Some shoes.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Some shoes. And I'm a sneaker head and sneaker shoes.

[Preston Perry]

It had to be the Holy Ghost.

[Jenny Allen]

But I love that example.

[Jonathan McLeod]

But listen to. Listen to. Listen to me, Miss Jenny. I am not that type of person at all. Do you see what I'm saying? And so, like, I feel like that's old pressing, like that's extra. That's stupid. I didn't grow up in church. I didn't grow up churchy. None of that. And so I got these shoes in the mail. And then when I got them, they were so beautiful. But then I realized that they were called voodoo. And it was like, literally voodoo shoes. Basically the concept was like a voodoo doll that they kind of, like, took apart and made a shoe.

[Jenny Allen]

Oh.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And I was like, this is the devil.

[Preston Perry]

Okay.

[Jenny Allen]

Get rid of those.

[Jonathan McLeod]

This is the.

[Jenny Allen]

Those in this house right now.

[Preston Perry]

You get rid of them.

[Jonathan McLeod]

No, no, no. This is the. This. This is how the devil gets us. He often allures us with beautiful things. Right. And so I'm like, these shows up shoes are so beautiful. I started doing my research, and I was like. And I did not want to throw those shoes away. And I felt no peace. And I felt so much attack mentally. And all the things. When I burned the enemy, I felt like the Lord was telling me, go in your backyard, put him in a fire pit and burn them. I'm like, this is crazy. And I did it. And I felt peace, and I felt like the torment and all the stuff was gone. So I guess I'm asking, like, obedience, I feel like, limits, access. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what do you guys think about that? Do you think it's true?

[Preston Perry]

I think. I imagine that obedience does not necessarily limit opposition.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Because the enemy is definitely wanting you to withdraw, your surrender and your obedience and your faith in Christ. So I would argue that the. The more you are fruitful, the more resistance you might get to that fruitfulness. But I also think that the more you lean into God's strength, God's love, God's care, God's scriptures, then you actually have the stamina to resist what he's resisting you with. Does that make sense? And one of the scriptures I feel like is important is first, John 5. This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him, while we walk in darkness, we lie. So we become the liars and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his son, cleanses us from all sin. I don't. Darkness is where the devil is.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Light is where the Lord is. If I'm in the devil's territory, then I can't be surprised when he knocking me upside the head. You know what I'm Saying, but if I'm in the light, then I just. I just got. I got different strength, you know? And I think the difficulty this is, I think this is the struggle of human Christians is I actually prefer darkness. That is still. That's what the sinful nature is. I still prefer that. Why? Cause I have control over there. I don't have to have faith over there, but over here is where the freedom and the peace is. You get what I'm saying?

[Jonathan McLeod]

Can I say something about that? Control. I had a dream the other day and I was kind of shit. I shared all about the demons that hated us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably accurate.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, for sure, accurate.

[Jonathan McLeod]

But I shared it with one of my mentors. And I didn't share this part with you, but I shared it with him. And in the dream, I didn't see the devil, but I felt like I felt the enemy. I heard the enemy say

[Preston Perry]

the people

[Jonathan McLeod]

of God, a lot of the people of God are still getting bullied. The only difference now is that they think that they're in control. I make them think that they're in control. And I think that's what the devil does. Yeah, I think that's what the devil does. I think he lies like. Cause he uses things, people to come in our lives, to plant seeds in our lives, to bully us. And then when we are in Christ, he hits us with a different. The devil's crafty. He makes you think you in control. But you're still getting bullied. You're still getting bullied out your legacy, you're still getting bullied out your marriage, you're still getting bullied out your friendships. You just think that you're in control now.

[Jenny Allen]

Right.

[Jonathan McLeod]

That's the only difference. And so like, I think the enemy lies to us consistently.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah, I mean, you're not in control. You see it in the temptations of Jesus. He taunts him. If you are God, why don't you do this? If God loved you, he would do this. It was a taunt. And so I think we need to be prepared for those that. That is going to come. And it's going to cause us to doubt. It's going to cause us. But back to the verses you just read. You know, I've been feeling like John the Baptist out there because I've been. Have been, you know, doing the, you know, college campuses and confession and repentance and what I can say. And then we've been baptizing and I'm telling you, the darkness has never been darker. Talk about that the things I.

[Preston Perry]

You was all I was. I kept seeing you. I said, jenny is at somebody's university every week dipping somebody in the water.

[Jenny Allen]

Yes, it's revival. It's the most miraculous thing I've ever seen.

[Preston Perry]

What's about, what are you seeing?

[Jenny Allen]

We've been on 20 something campuses. This is with a ministry called UNITE that my friend Tanya started. And I couldn't believe it. I mean, we started in Auburn. She prayed that God would do something special at Auburn and invited us. It was me and Jonathan McLeoda. And we, we're like, oh, she's never done this. I don't know. And again, I couldn't even do it. I had a conflict. Turns out she finds a way. She gets us there and the stadium's full. It's like 6,500 students at night. And we end up baptizing 300 students in a dirty pond spontaneously. And that just started. And all these schools have called and said, come and student led. They invite and they market, they do it all. And I mean, it's pretty insane. Like, we show up at Secular Universe, Florida State University, second leading party school. They took the students thought of this. They took buses around, picked up drunk people and said, free concert. Trick them, get them in the room. And by the end, their hands are up. And we're baptizing some of them. I mean, they want God. Here's the thing is they've lived in the kingdom of this world in a big way. So the darkness is getting darker. I'm baptizing kids that say, my mother's a witch. She has cursed me my entire life, and I don't even know what freedom feels like. But you tell me God loves me and I want that. I'm sitting there watching her eyes, her face. I baptize her, she comes up and she looks physically different. I don't. I can't make up this stuff. Like, it is insane. The darkness, the abortions that are confessed. You know, it's so simple. And this is what I believe is about. I mean, in fact, tonight I'm on my way to San Antonio where they. This pastor called me and said, jenny, I don't know what's happening, but it feels like revival. They've had these prayer nights for three weeks. This will be fourth week in a row. And people are parking a mile and a half away to get in. They are confessing their sin. There's salvation, there's baptisms. It's very participatory, right? That's what we're doing with students that's what I believe is about to happen with the church. It is repentance. It is taking the darkness and exposing it. It is saying out loud. I mean, they say out loud what they have dealt with. And we're not talking about, you know, people pleasing. We're talking about, you know, sexual addiction. We're talking about Molly. We're talking about, you know, addictions that they feel like they're powerless over.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Wow. That's beautiful.

[Jenny Allen]

You know, a few weeks ago, I don't remember where we were. It's starting to all run together. But this guy walked up to me. He was probably 7 foot tall. It looked like it to me. And he's got tears in his eyes. And that's what he said. He just looked at me and he said, I never knew Jesus loved me. You would think you knew 101, y'.

[Preston Perry]

All.

[Jenny Allen]

They don't know that God loves them. They think God's disappointed in them. That all they see is their shame. All they see is. And so when they name it out loud, when they say it, and then they hear Romans 8:1. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. They want God and they want that other kingdom. Because they're sick of living in what they've been living in.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah. Yeah. That's why evangelism, it's so important.

[Jenny Allen]

Oh, Lord. I mean, it's time for it, y'.

[Jonathan McLeod]

All.

[Jenny Allen]

The harvest is ripe.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

For all of those listening that wonder or find that hard to do, to share your faith, this is the moment. This is the time. People want God in a unique way.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I have a pastor. He became my friend. Cause he just booked me to his church every year. But last year, he lives in Alabama, and they hired him to be, like, the campus, like, slash pastor for Alabama State University. And a couple of weeks ago, they just had, like, a revival on campus. And so just the other day, three days ago, I went out there and it's. I mean, they're on fire, like. But it's like young adults, unchurched, never heard the gospel. And it's like, wow. Like, we've been in bondage. And just. People are tired.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah, they're tired.

[Jonathan McLeod]

They're just tired. And I think that's what I saw in a lot of the people. It's like they're just tired. And they finally found a place where they can have real rest. And I think that's the reason why we need people to come with the gospel and just give truth. Because they just. They're tired of the lies. Tired of the, you know, the strongholds and all the things.

[Jenny Allen]

It's the mercy of God to lose everything in this life, to realize it doesn't work.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

And to get to the end and see that God's the only way. And a lot of them feel that way, that they have just gotten to the end and they. You know, the suicide ideation, the suicides that are happening, I mean, it's on campuses. It is terrifying right now. The hopelessness.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

Wow.

[Preston Perry]

I have so many places I can go. But I want to talk about the gospel and how the gospel helps us prefer truth, helps us to exchange lies for truth. Like, helps like how the gospel is really the avenue by which we experience freedom within ourselves and are able to communicate that freedom to others. Can you just speak about. I don't know how the good news plays apart in all of this.

[Jenny Allen]

I mean, let's go back to the temptation. Because when you think about how he responded, you know, I mean, that's. I just lived in this passage. And when you think about how he answered, you know, Luke. It was. Yeah, Luke 4. I mean, it's in Matthew as well, but. But we'll go to Luke 4. When you think about. He's taunting him. He's not eaten for 40 days. I actually believe that he was in a very spiritually strong place, but physically weak. When the devil comes. But I think we tend to think, oh, he came at his weakest. And I'm like, actually, he probably came. The devil probably came at Jesus strongest. And so what does he say? And he starts. I mean, he quotes some scripture, like, throughout this. He starts with a kernel of truth.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Y' all gotta.

[Jenny Allen]

Luke 4. Yeah. And so then, you know, Jesus responds with a worldview.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

A deep belief that this kingdom is not it. That he was content giving up everything in this kingdom for the next.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

And that is surrender. Like, that's what he's calling us to. And so his answers were just scripture, you know, you shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve. Like, he replies with scripture and he's just. He's reframing, I think, for himself and all of us. You have to think nobody was there but angels, Jesus and the devil. Jesus left the wilderness and told his disciples all of this. Most things recorded were recorded by the disciples this moment. Jesus had to tell somebody. And so he found it important. And it was a model of how we would do this. And it is answering with a worldview. It is saying, I do not serve you in this world. I serve God. And I wait on him and what he has for me. And then he says, you know that over and over again, he answers, in fact, I think I like the Matthew passage better.

[Preston Perry]

I feel like Matthew when the animals or something.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah. So man shall not live. So he offers him bread. I mean, he's starving. That's how he starts. Man shall not live on bread alone. He's saying, there's something bigger. And I think this is what we've got to do. When we feel taunted, when we feel the lies, when we are stuck in them, there's something bigger.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

There's a different world to live for. And that's what he did. And then he says, yeah, he puts him on top of the temple and he says that he'll give him all these kingdoms. And he says,

[Jonathan McLeod]

man should not live all.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah. And then his answer is, y', all, I can't see. Help.

[Preston Perry]

You need some glasses.

[Jenny Allen]

Matthew 4.

[Preston Perry]

I'm looking for a scripture in my phone.

[Jonathan McLeod]

I'm sorry, I was still in Luke.

[Preston Perry]

Matthew 4.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Matthew 4. What?

[Jenny Allen]

I mean, let's just look at some of the ones. I mean.

[Jonathan McLeod]

So he says, man should not live all bread alone. But every word that comes out of the mouth of God.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

And then this next one, what's he say as the devil takes him to the temple? And he says, yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

If you are the son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written he will command the angels concerning you.

[Jenny Allen]

He's taunting him.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah. With lies. Yep.

[Jenny Allen]

On their hands, they will bear you up.

[Jonathan McLeod]

At least you strike your foot against a stone.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah. Jesus said to him, again, it is written, you shall not test the Lord your God. And he just kind of goes back to, we're not going to play these games. So when you see it as games, when you see, like this whole thing is a farce, it is set up for you to buy in and for you to sell your soul to it. And we're all saying, yes. And I'm talking about the Christians, we're saying, yes, I will live for mattering today. Yes, I will live for the approval of people. Yes, I will live to try to control my life so I don't feel pain. And Jesus answer the devil was, I'm not going to play these games like, I know what God says and I'm going to live for it. It is Daniel, right? It is. I'm going to live in the world, but not be of it. I'm going to be here, but I'm not going to be intoxicated by it. I'm going to live for something that is wholly different. And how did Daniel do it? I love Daniel. Daniel, talking about holiness, I mean, he cut out anything. And I'll say this as I keep going, kind of like the shoes. I feel like God keeps saying, you're gonna cut this out. You're gonna cut this out. And I'm like, that thing's not bad. He's like, I don't care. I'm calling you to more. And the more that I am calling you to. You can't play games. It's not that. It's all evil. Yeah. You have freedom. Lots of people do have freedom to do that thing that you wanna do. You don't. You don't. Because I have called you to something more. And if we start thinking that way, it's like. It's kind of like that old saying that. That people used to say about dating. Like, how far's too far? And that kind of question. It's like, that was the wrong question. You know, it's like, how far can I flee from immorality? Like, that's the right question. And so then it's like, that's how it is with all the things in the world now. It's like, why am I playing games? Why am I dabbling? Why am I touching something that could lead to an addiction? Like, I don't want that. I wanna live for the kingdom. And I don't want to miss whatever he has for me here. And I'm gonna miss it. I won't know it. I won't know what I'm missing, but I will in heaven. Because he prepared good works for me to do that I'll see. You know, I'll be like, yeah, yeah, you were messing around. You were playing games.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah. And that's. And I think what this shows us. Like, for me, I can't read the scripture without thinking about first John, when it says, do not love the world, know the things of this world. For if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not a him. And he tells us what the world consists of. All that is in the world is the lust of the flesh. Flesh lust of the eye and pride of life. And it's not a coincidence that the devil attacked him with all three of those things.

[Jenny Allen]

Yep.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Right. He attacked him with the. The lust of the flesh. If you're. He's fasting.

[Jenny Allen]

He's hungry.

[Jonathan McLeod]

He's hungry. So he. He attacked his flesh. The lust of the eye. Look at. Look at all the kingdoms of the world. Like, you know, I'll give you all of these things. It shows us that the enemy does have things to offer us.

[Preston Perry]

And he's typical.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And he's very typical.

[Preston Perry]

It's not really.

[Jonathan McLeod]

So he's. He's testing us in our weaknesses. You know what I'm saying? So this is the reason why Jesus shows us, to your point, that being kingdom minded helps us resist the devil in his lies and his temptations. When he comes, you know, and know that he come back. Because I love how the scripture says. I don't know if it's here where it says he looked for opportune time to come back, so he coming back, but he will.

[Jenny Allen]

What's that last lust? What's the third one?

[Jonathan McLeod]

The last one is, you said lust

[Jenny Allen]

of the flesh, less of. Of the I and the pride of life. Pride of life.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Oh, yeah, the pride of life. Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah. Pride feels good. What I like about that list is because only one of those things is the obvious.

[Preston Perry]

Probably jumping off the thing or.

[Jenny Allen]

Well, the last one. The last one is. Yeah, jumping off. And he's gonna save you.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

And there's a reality of, oh, no, all the kingdoms I'm gonna give to you. And so there's a reality of, like, he will have all those kingdoms and he will die and God will restore him. Like, all these things will happen. It's just not now. But we are people that are now people, and we want it all now. And that, you know, hope deferred is. I think about heaven almost every day. My team calls me morbid, you know, because I think about death way too much. But it drives me. It drives me. And I want heaven to go well. But for heaven to go well, I have to defer some things now. And that's what Jesus did. I mean, he could have had all of those things.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

You know the scary thing about that passage, to me, and we can talk about this. I know this is something we talked about offline that we want to talk about more, how much power the devil did have.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Jenny Allen]

He had the power to give him those kingdoms.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

He offered him things that were in his domain and dominion.

[Preston Perry]

He did.

[Jenny Allen]

So I don't. I mean, I don't know if we want to talk about that.

[Preston Perry]

No, to me, it would say that every time you.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah, because I think we underestimate him. Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

He.

[Preston Perry]

He's not as strong as God, but he got strength.

[Jenny Allen]

He's got more strength than us.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

Like, apart from God, I've had prayers.

[Preston Perry]

I remember it was probably a Month ago. And I was just. Just wrestling with some stuff, and I was just like, lord, he's stronger than me. I was like, he's strong. I was like, you have to protect him from me. Like, protect me from him. I don't have the resources within myself, apart from you, to fight him.

[Jenny Allen]

These are ancient beings.

[Preston Perry]

Yes.

[Jenny Allen]

They have been around a lot longer than us, and they have been strategic and schemed, and they have seen humanity generation after generation. They are not confused as to what gets us.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

They're very smart.

[Preston Perry]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

And I think that's, like reading this. Like, I sat with that for weeks of like, did he have all that power? Could he have? If Jesus would have said yes, could he have? And it's like, he's the prince of the world. I mean, there's a lot of power that he has, and I think we underestimate it, and then we get defeated by it, and we're surprised.

[Jonathan McLeod]

But one thing this also shows us is that one of the number one lies, that the enemy. That the enemy attacks people with Israel, convincing them with this lie, that the things that you have obtained is a blessing.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

What do you mean?

[Jonathan McLeod]

Like, like, like. Like riches. Like, some people feel like, oh, God is blessing me. As if the devil doesn't have things to give you as well. It's like, no, no, you're not being blessed by the Lord. You're actually being given things by somebody

[Jenny Allen]

who tempts you to care about this world more than.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And to throw away your. And to forfeit your soul.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And we think about the world, we think about award shows. When people get on the stage and say, I want to thank God for all my blessings. It's like sin and death all day. I don't think that's the Lord.

[Jenny Allen]

Right.

[Jonathan McLeod]

That's the enemy having kingdoms to offer you.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right.

[Jonathan McLeod]

But if we're honest, we. We do the same thing in a church.

[Preston Perry]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jonathan McLeod]

Like. Like, we're not. Like, we're. We're saying we're Christians, but we're not living for his kingdom. We're living for our own fame, our own resources, our own, you know, all the things. And it might not necessarily be the Lord giving us things, but the enemy.

[Jenny Allen]

The questions. Because of what you're saying, the questions I've been asking myself lately are, is this a good thing that the enemy has brought for me to do? That looks like a God thing, and it is going to steal my joy, my peace, my soul.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

Because how great. I mean, I just think we can put God's name on things exactly like you're saying, and it is coming straight from the devil.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Would you say that's a way to recognize if it's not a God thing? If you don't have peace, peace, joy while doing it?

[Jenny Allen]

I hope to recognize it before I'm in the middle of it. But yeah, as soon as I do recognize that, I mean, I'm a slasher. Like my team, we don't hang onto things. It's like we're not doing that anymore. We're just not doing it anymore. But I'm trying to protect from even getting to that point right. Of just before I even step. But I mean, you know, God doesn't always write in the sky and say it real clearly.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Jenny Allen]

And so that's where motives, I think, can play. Like this conversation is so helpful. Cause it's like, am I doing this out of.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. And the Lord. I mean, Psalm 139, search my heart, you know, let me know if there's any unclean way in me. I think relying on God's illumination, like saying, if I'm off here, show me. You know, because I'm not that good at interrogating myself. And so even I even need and dependent on the Lord to show me the reasons I'm doing things. You know what I'm saying? But what I wanted to encourage people with is that Satan is relentless. Satan is strong, Satan is smart, but he is also defeated.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right.

[Preston Perry]

And I think we have to know he's defeated. Because even after you listen to this podcast and you, you got all excited because Jenny Alden told you about your court lie and how to fight it, he's around the corner like, all right, let's see how strong, you know what I'm saying? I know what it's like to be excited and zealous and feel urgent about coming against the things that have been holding me down and then immediately get knocked off my feet. You know what I'm saying? And so I just want to encourage you in knowing what Jesus says to two things. In John 14, Jesus is talking to his disciples. Verse 30, he says, I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. The devil. He has no claim on me. What I love about that is that, like, yeah, Satan might be strong, but he ain't stronger than Christ.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right.

[Preston Perry]

There was no access, There was no territory. There was no claim that he had on. But Also in John 16, Jesus says, In verse 33, I have said these things to you that in me, in me, in me, united with him, you may have peace in the world. You will have tribulations, temptations, being a part of that. But take heart, I have overcome the world. And so I think we have to constantly be reminded of the truth that God has overcome the world, including all the things that I am tempted to believe about it.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

That's all.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

I mean, there's. To me, there's two ways the devil works. And I've heard this said. I don't know who said it, but it's not original. He's subtle and quiet and you never notice him. Or he blows himself up so big that you're scared of him.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

And honestly, most of my life, it was the first. And recently in the last few years, it has been the second. I have seen spiritual warfare. Our family has felt it. We have been in and out of hospital at a speed and rate that is insane. My immediate family, it is. I mean, it's crazy. Like, my husband, it feels like he's had two times where I thought he was gonna die. My son, they think he has colon cancer, then they think he has epilepsy. Totally unrelated. Like we are. It's like we're just getting chased and pummeled and nothing's sticking, but it's scaring me. And it feels like the more I obey him, you know, I say I feel like Lucy in Narcissist. And I'm saddled up and I'm like, aslan, wherever you go, I'm riding like we're gonna go, and it's exciting and there's so many cool things and God is moving and I'm dunking kids left and right, and I'm watching God bring revival. And I'm seeing the global church. Like, I've never seen the global church. And I mean, my high points and what I've seen of God is beautiful and spectacular and the warfare that has accompanied all of it, the monsters and the witches in Narnia are real too. And. And I think that he has felt bigger to me lately. And it has scared me and it has made me. There have been times that I've known God wants me to do something and I literally don't want to do it because I know I'm going to have more warfare. And that just makes me tired. And so you're right. That is the most important thing. He has no claim. He does not win. And, you know, God is with us. Like, one thing God showed Me recently was. I felt like he leaves me when I'm getting attacked and it's like, no, I'm covering you. Like in this world you're gonna have trouble still.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

But I've got you and nothing he can do to you that I don't give my permission.

[Preston Perry]

I mean, Joe.

[Jenny Allen]

Right. That is my comfort.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Like some attack kind of.

[Jenny Allen]

And also scares the crud out of me.

[Preston Perry]

For sure. Some attack is. Could be God's affirmation. You know what I'm saying? But what has been helpful for me is to think. Like to think about temptation and spiritual warfare and opposition as additional opportunities to get to know God.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right.

[Preston Perry]

You know what I'm saying? Like, this is also something that you want. Like there is a sanctifying component in all of this. I'm sharing in Christ's sufferings because he had to fight this man too. But I'm also being purified in my why.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right.

[Preston Perry]

You know, like my why is becoming a bit clear, clearer. Because I. I think in the last two or three years of my life, I haven't. I have never experienced this degree of opposition publicly, relationally, internally, mentally. But my why is different.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

You know what I'm saying? My wisdom is different and my concern for the church is different. Like, my strategies for ministry have changed because I'm like. I want people to endure and last.

[Jenny Allen]

That's right.

[Preston Perry]

And it's like. Like it's something about the Lord and Jesus that we gotta tap into if we wanna win. So I wanna read Ephesians 6, finally. Be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers. It's tears to these. They got hierarchies over this present darkness against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore, it's take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day. And having done all to stand firm. So I am thankful that the Lord is with us.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

You know what I'm saying? Like, if he wasn't with us, this whole conversation would be very despairing. Yeah. It would be like, oh, we just. He finna pick us up one by one. Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

And. And one little simple truth that I'm walking away from. All that was said, especially a lot of the things that Jenny said, is that God is sovereign. And oftentimes in his sovereignty. He wants to use the lies of the enemy to remind us of truth, to remind us of the truth about himself. To remind us of who he's called us to be and why he's called us. And so God doesn't waste anything. And so he even wants to use lies to remind you who he is. And so keep running to Jesus in the midst of the lies. Because the more the enemy lie to you and the more you turn to Jesus, you're gonna learn more about him. Learn more about your purpose in Him.

[Jenny Allen]

Yeah. And the answer to all of it is in Him. Right. There's no other answer. It's like. It's not control in this world. It's that God, who is sovereign, controls everything. It's not that we aren't sometimes unlovable, because we are. It's that he loved us to death. You know? And there's not this. We don't have to strive to get that love.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah.

[Jenny Allen]

It's just in him they're answered. And only in him in a way that's satisfactory, you know?

[Jonathan McLeod]

Yeah.

[Preston Perry]

Do you have any closing words for us, Mrs. Jenny Allen, about the lie you don't know you believe?

[Jenny Allen]

I just. I would just say I hope everybody listening. Feels tremendous. Grace. That this is common to man, that we are not. You are not especially broken. Yeah. I want the picture of that right there that you are. You're not especially broken because you believe lies. You're loved. Like the reason the enemy comes for you is cause you're loved because you love God and He loves you. Like that makes you a target. So I just hope that shame doesn't enter this story any more than it already has. That's good that there's peace and freedom to work this out with God. And that invitation that. It's a giant invitation to. Okay, God, I want to see myself the way that you see me. Not the way the world says I should be and not the way I see myself, but the way that you see me. And as that happens, we get more free.

[Preston Perry]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Before we leave, I just feel led to pray for you. Pray for this.

[Preston Perry]

That's so crazy. I was looking at her face, I was like, I think we're supposed to pray for her.

[Jonathan McLeod]

Awesome.

[Jenny Allen]

I mean, I will receive all of it one accord.

[Jonathan McLeod]

So, dear gracious God, we thank you, God, for this conversation. We thank you, God, for this vessel, Jenny, that you've used greatly. We know, God, that she has written many books, but this book, it seems special. All of her books have been special. Been used by you. But I do believe that there is a particular type of warfare that comes with exposing the lies of the enemy. We know one thing about the enemy is that the enemy likes to be hit. He doesn't like to be seen. And you love for your glory to be seen, but the enemy, he wants to hide. And I know that this work will expose a lot of lies generationally, in people's hearts, people's minds, and we will be remiss to think that they're not. There's not a particular strategy even geared towards any. A hitback from the enemy. And we're not afraid of the enemy. But we just ask you, Lord, in your grace, to. To hide her under the shadow of the Almighty, to protect her underneath your wings. God. We pray, God, that as this book goes out into the world, that you will send angels to encamp around her home and her family. That we know we're not void of struggling or suffering, but we. But we know that you will protect us in the midst of it. So protect her mind, protect her heart, protect. Protect this book, protect this work. And allow this work to go out into the world and to impact generations to come. And so we love you. We thank you. We believe you for everything we've asked.

[Preston Perry]

In Jesus Name with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.