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- [00:08]
A
Hi. What up with y'?
- [00:11]
B
All? How are you?
- [00:14]
A
How am I? I don't feel no shame. I just wasted water on my. On my sweater. That's what you looking. You looked at me like I was a dirty boy.
- [00:24]
B
Honestly, I think that's really ironic because you felt shame, didn't you? Huh?
- [00:28]
A
No, I didn't feel shame.
- [00:30]
B
You should.
- [00:31]
A
Wow. Because I got a water mark.
- [00:36]
B
It just looked like dirt. It looked like you put on a dirty.
- [00:40]
A
No, this is water. I just, you know, I missed my lip. I missed the bottom lip. And so when I missed the bottom lip, water, like, by the end of this episode, it might be okay.
- [00:51]
B
No shame.
- [00:52]
A
No shame.
- [00:53]
B
Okay. Preston said last night that we should talk about shame. And here we are.
- [01:01]
A
Shame on you for saying I was dirty.
- [01:03]
B
I didn't say you were dirty. I said it gave. It gave that. You just put on anything and got on. But you didn't. So that's my fault for shaming you.
- [01:14]
A
I accept your apology.
- [01:15]
B
Okay?
- [01:15]
A
Just don't let it happen again.
- [01:16]
B
Now, anyway, we. This ain't. This ain't gonna be super technical, theological, psychological. Shame is a really, really, really big topic that can go a lot of directions. If y' all want something super deep, go on to Kirk Thompson, go on to Dan Allender, go on to Brene Brown if you got to.
- [01:36]
A
You say that and you gonna say like nine deep things.
- [01:39]
B
I'm just saying, if they want, like, all the things, like a therapist would communicate, this ain't it. We is just lollygagging about shame. And so I'm just saying you gonna be real disapp. I'm going to be like Dan Allender. I'm not going to. I don't not do all that. Cuz even when I studied shame for the paper I wrote about false teachers, I realized how deep it was and how there's a lot of different angles that can be taken. Because you got the. You got a psychological approach to shame that, you know, you got a theological approach to shame. And they overlap, but they also are different and distinct. And so I think I realized when there are subjects that are big, I don't want to presume to know all the things or communicate all the things accurately. I can only communicate from my little. I wanna say myopic, but I don't know if that's the right word.
- [02:26]
A
My small.
- [02:27]
B
Yeah.
- [02:28]
A
Cause I think the reality is when you think about shame and if you thought about it for a number of years, you realize that it affects so many different things. It intertwines with so many different belief systems, it affects how you show up in so many different relationships, how you affect, like it just affects. So you're right when you say like it's so many different angles that we can take as it relates to shame. I want to read just the first Webster definition of shame that I googled. Shame is an intensely painful emotion caused by the consciousness of guilt, shortcoming or feeling like you haven't measured up. It is closely tied to a negative evaluation of yourself, often involving the belief system that you're asking. Actions or flaws make you unworthy of respect, love or belonging. And that's deep because when you think about that, that definition and then you think about the gospel and all that the gospel is, you start to just figure out like, yeah, you start to just see like how, how shame and the gospel just cannot coexist with one another peacefully. When you think about the gospel. Cause it's like man unworthy of love, respect, belonging. Those are all the things that the gospel came to give us. And if shame invokes those emotions, it is literally anti gospel. And so I guess my question to you is, can you talk about all the ways in which you seeing shame not just show up in your life, but see shame get in the way of the gospel and all the things.
- [04:21]
B
I think it's wise to talk about the entry of shame. Shame.
- [04:25]
A
Let's talk about the entry. Entry of shame then.
- [04:27]
B
Yeah. Cuz I mean In Genesis 1 and 2, God makes Adam and Eve and it says that they were naked and unashamed. And so for scripture to, to say that is communicating something significant, you know, because I think we understand that nakedness is exposure. It's vulnerable. It's is like this sense in which they saw each other as they were. But there was no shame. There was no fear, there was no judgment, there was no accusation, there was no insecurity. And so their nakedness is even bigger than their bodies. It's their so like they are, they are fully known and fully loved until the devil comes. And the devil comes lies to these people. They eat the fruit. And then the Bible says, let me read it so you don't think I'm making things up like some of these other people be doing. Genesis 3, verse 7. Then the eyes of both are open and they knew that they were naked. And they sold fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths. What's happening there? They are no longer naked and unashamed. Now they are naked and ashamed. And to cover, cover, cover their shame, they do not turn to the Lord for covering. They turn to themselves for covering and find some fig leaves which are insufficient source of covering and clothing to cover the nakedness or whatever. And so when I was studying shame, to study the whole false teacher thing, it was just deep to see that shame and pride all came through the same source, which is sin.
- [06:10]
A
Wow.
- [06:10]
B
It's sin. And so I think what we are all always dealing with is some type of shame because we know our enough to know that we don't want to be seen fully because we don't believe that we will be loved fully. You know what I'm saying? And that's. I think at the core that's what shame communicates is if people really saw you, they would not love you.
- [06:33]
A
Yeah, they would not love you. And, and, and also it can also communicate that, like, you don't deserve God's love.
- [06:41]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:43]
A
Because I think. I think I. I believe. I. I can only speak for myself. I believe that I'm loved by others when I truly believe that I'm loved by the Lord. And so sometimes I. I have convinced myself that I don't deserve the Lord's love and his acceptance. And that's deep. It's deep that the. The first thing that they thought to do was to cover themselves. Yeah, that's very deep to me.
- [07:08]
B
It's a big deal.
- [07:09]
A
Yeah. Like. Like. And I'm wondering oftentimes when I read about Adam and Eve, I try to put myself in their. In their mind of experiencing all of these emotions for the first time. Experiencing, you know. Yeah. This feeling of guilt and like, like. And I. I just couldn't imagine being them.
- [07:31]
B
Because. Because think about, think about it. They. Their bodies are the same.
- [07:38]
A
Yeah. But they don't see it the same.
- [07:41]
B
Your brain is no longer the same. And so that's how diabolical their eyes being open was, which is like, no, y' all body ain't degenerated. I'm pretty sure y' all both still look bomb. You understand what I'm saying? Before this serpent showed up, everything was fine and beautiful and open and all. But now I'm vulnerable now I'm insecure. Now I'm blaming. Now I don't feel safe with you. Like, the only thing that happened was that they believed a lie and that changed everything.
- [08:14]
A
Yeah. And it's deep. That's so deep to me because. It's. Because that's what I was going to say. Like, I think what immediately affected them then is what affects us still to this day. It is A lot of the things that we feel shameful about is all in our mind. It's literally in our mind. Like we think that the people around us don't love us. So we think that we're not deserving of this. We think. But the reality is, is that even in their failure they had a, a God who still drew near to them and of, of course, you know, curse the garden and you know, childbirth and all of that, like kind of, they were consequences. But he did not judge the world without first promising, promising to save. And so they still had a present God there.
- [09:00]
B
But can I speak to that real quick? Yeah, I think this is like not a new idea. I think I wrote this in my paper because it just came up when you said that. Yeah, I think a part of the seed of shame started with Satan trying to frame God as not being good for them.
- [09:25]
A
Yeah.
- [09:26]
B
Like so even before they ate the fruit, did God really say so? It was like the seed was planted that and he really ain't for you like that. He's withholding something from you. Like he really. And he ain't even going to do what he said that he's going to do. And so to me that has to play a part even in their shame with each other is they already have believed this lie that God is not for us. And if God ain't for it, like if, without that, then I definitely don't think you for me.
- [09:57]
A
Yeah.
- [09:58]
B
You know what I'm saying? And so I'm basically affirming the reality that I think how we understand how God views us plays a part in even how we view ourselves and how we view each other.
- [10:08]
A
That's good. That's good.
- [10:12]
B
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- [11:00]
A
I think this topic can be weird to people sometimes because money can be a very interesting topic, especially in the body of Christ. We always hear the love of money is the root of all. The love of money is the root of all evil. But the Bible also says that money answers all things, that money is a blessing when it's put in the hands of the right people who know how to steward it. Well, God used people with money to bring about his will and his purpose on the earth. So I think talking about how we can manage something that can be a blessing is super, super important.
- [11:29]
B
So we encourage you to check it out. Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey, available on Amazon or see the link in the show notes.
- [11:39]
A
Because if you. Yeah, that's really good because I think it's started with that lie, right. That, you know, did God really say. Or you. He. God don't want you to be like him, knowing, you know, good and evil. Like, he.
- [11:48]
B
He.
- [11:48]
A
He wants you to be limited. Like, he. He's withholding the good thing from you. And then when they ate from the. The tree of knowledge of good and evil, they of course experience. And so I could imagine being tricked that God is not for them. And then just the emotion that they had when they actually are, like, faced, like, to hear him walking in the
- [12:10]
B
cool of the day, not running, not stomping, nothing.
- [12:12]
A
Yeah. Just coming towards him. It's like, now you're faced with this reality, like. Cause I think it's a difference between the devil lying to you when the Lord ain't around, and then the Lord showing up and like, I'm still God. I'm still the God who loves you now you face it as reality. So I think even. I think we talked about this a little a couple days ago. Like, even Adam having the temptation, like, it was the woman that you gave me, like, shame made him, like, blame his wife, you know, for allowing her to eat from that tree. And so I think that, like, the enemy does it. I think we said this a couple of years ago on the podcast, that the enemy gives you, like, the wrong food and then shames you for eating it. And I think that's the enemy's job, is to just shame us for. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but, you know.
- [13:00]
B
Yeah, shame has, I think, is. In the definition you said. It has a lot to do with exposure, being, Being. Being seen in a certain light by people. And I think what adds to shame is Dan Alliter talks about it A lot where it's contempt. For example, I was, I had to go to a new school when I went to third grade because we had moved. And I, not surprisingly, I was shy then, but I was just timid and to myself. But I also was really free, like kindergarten, first grade, second grade. I was freer because I hadn't met shame yet. And so when I went to third, we went to this third grade classroom and they had already started school late because it was a different district. And so there's just all this anxiety because I have to go into the class and they've already built relationships, they've already built friendships and they're seated in the class so it's uncomfortable. And so the teacher walks me and my mom in the class or whatever and I'm overwhelmed, so I start crying. My whole third grade year, I got bullied and treated crazy, which literally changed the way I navigate life even to this day. But a significant part of that is when I expressed that I got bullied to somebody in my family. They were like, they bullied you because you cried. She was like, you showed them that you. Which communicated to me, oh, the way I'm being treated is deserved and warranted because I show them my emotions. And so I started to connect how I move emotionally to like my ability to protect myself from stuff. That's shame.
- [14:51]
A
Yeah.
- [14:52]
B
You know what I'm saying? Like, they saw me being a 8 year old girl who was overwhelmed and scared, but it's now I'm being like I'm being treated a certain kind of way because of what you see about me. And so now you have to navigate life like making sure people don't see how emotional you are, people don't see how vulnerable you are, people don't see how sensitive you are. So you have to find these fig leaves to hide yourself, to protect yourself. And so I'm saying that's just one example of how shame and exposure and content play a part in who we become.
- [15:23]
A
That's good. That's really good. That's really good. And so did that make sense? It made a lot of sense. I think what I'm, and I've heard this story a bunch of times that I'm trying to figure out where did the shame come in? While I know, I just want to be clear, like, because when you were bullied, right? Like, did you feel the shame? Like, was it the person who said that thing to you? Is that when you felt the shame or did you feel the shame when you were getting bullied in the same
- [15:56]
B
way that Adam and Eve were fully themselves. But now there's a level of fear that if I am myself, you won't love me. When I showed up in that classroom, I was myself. Myself is sensitive. Myself is scared. And so what I needed was to be comforted and say, it's actually, you should be scared. It's okay. You're in a new environment. It's all right. It's not wrong for you to cry. But for someone to communicate that my abuse was deserved because my emotional self was seen, that's where the shame comes in. And so now I live a life feeling like if people really knew how sensitive I was, they would take advantage of it. That's shame talking. That's not truth.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah.
- [16:48]
B
Yeah.
- [16:48]
A
That's deep. That's deep. That's why. Yeah, That's. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that, because I think what this shows us, and I think for me, I've had similar things. Like, you know, in our counseling session, you know, last week, we talked about how, like, my fifth grade teacher invoked a lot of shame in my life. My fifth grade teacher told me that I was the dumbest person in the class. And I was like, dang. You know, And I think early on, the enemy, he shames us. Because I think the reason why you felt shame, because you were literally shamed. Literally, you know, And I think, like, I think the enemy tries to plant those seeds even when we're younger so that we can grow up, believe in this lie and being affected by shame in every aspect of our lives. And so I think for me, when I realized, sort of like you in fourth grade, when my teacher told me fourth or fifth grade, when my teacher told me that or whatever, throughout my life, that belief system that I was not good enough has showed up everywhere. It showed up how I. How I, you know, communicate with the people that I love. It show up how I teach or communicate. It show up how I deal with my children or my parents.
- [18:08]
B
Can I ask you a question?
- [18:09]
A
So many different things shame does.
- [18:11]
B
So Adam and Eve, they have tangible fig leaves to cover their nakedness. Me, I developed a kind of hard exterior. That's my fig leaf, is that I have to protect myself with. What was said to you in third. Fourth grade, what were your fig leaves? Because people can look at you and be like, but you're an apologist. You're an author, you're a podcaster. You're a communicator. You're a teacher. It doesn't seem as if it actually affected you. At all.
- [18:43]
A
Yeah. What's crazy is I think, and this is not me saying this to sound like a flex. This is actually like, if you knew what I meant by this, you act like, no, that's not a flex, but like, I'm a miracle. Like, I think we're all miracles when it comes to our salvation. I think we're all miracles. I'm a miracle of, like, doing what I'm doing now, you know? And I think my fig leaves early on was just. I was very popular in school. I was popular in middle school, I was popular in high school.
- [19:19]
B
Can't relate.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah. And so, and so, like in high school, I was like one of the most popular people in my school. And it was really deeply rooted in my insecurity because I did not feel smart because of that seed that was planted in my head. Fifth grade, I rapped, I roasted people. Well, I, you know.
- [19:43]
B
You found something to be good at.
- [19:44]
A
I found a lot of things to be good. I played basketball well, you know what I'm saying? I got in trouble, I fought, I stole things. I was proud of it. I was just bad. And so because I was bad and because I knew how to, like, rap and do all these, I was popular. But deep down inside, I was so fragile and insecure. And so all. If people really saw me in high school like the real me, they would have saw, like, I'm still that same dude in fifth grade who doesn't think that he's intelligent. And so. But I just covered it with the acceptance of everything else. And it wasn't until, you know, I became a Christian where the Lord was like, I want you to. Yeah. Like, I want you to do spoken word poetry. And I stopped performing poetry. And I was like, oh, I'm creative and I'm actually a communicator. Like the devil, like, literally lied to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm a great thinker and all of the things. And even in Christ, I still had to work through a lot of shame. Because even though. Because that's the thing about shame. You can start operating in the thing that the devil told you that you couldn't operate in. But deep down inside, you still got this deep rooted shame.
- [20:58]
B
Yes.
- [20:59]
A
That. That affects your freedom, that you gotta. You gotta unpluck that lie. Because that lie can still be way down in there. And you probably can be doing the things that you never thought you would do. But it's like you still, deep down inside believe that you're not good enough. And that's just a lie from the enemy. And so, yeah, I think in different seasons of my life, pre Christ and in Christ, I had different fig leaves. My fig leaves have changed. Like, I've had so many different types of fig leaves. I've had fig leaves in Christ.
- [21:27]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [21:28]
A
Like, I've had a lot of fig leaves in Christ. It's like, you know, I remember when I first, and this is just me being 100, like when I first started to be an apologist and I wrote. I wrote about this in my book. But even after, you know, said, I started to, like, get corrected in this, a lot of my apologetic work was trying to meet was me trying to prove to myself that I was good enough, that I was smart enough, that I can destroy a person in an argument because my fifth grade teacher said I wasn't dumb. I'm prove her right. She probably gone. I ain't gonna say. But the Lord, we don't know. Because if she didn't repent for 10, I'm just playing.
- [22:06]
B
I mean, it's true.
- [22:07]
A
You get what I'm saying, though? Like, I think, you know, we have shame makes us have so many different fig leaves when the real fig leaf is we're covered by the blood. We're covered in Christ, like we're covered in his righteousness. And I think that's just something we gotta consistently remember.
- [22:27]
B
Hopefully you are making time for annual checkups for Dr. Vi, for labs, for blood work, and I'm just interested in what keeps you consistent. We got kids, we got four of them. We want to stay healthy for them. I actually do look forward to annual checkups. I don't know if Preston does, but what you do before your appointment actually does matter. So before your next checkup, make the one health change your doctor should notice or you get your money back. Make a field of greens. Doctors today, look beyond your calendar age at your 20, 25, 36, 42. They look at your biological age, how healthy your cells and vital organs are. Field of was designed with all of that in mind. Each fruit and vegetable is doctor selected to support your cells, your heart, your lungs, your kidneys, and a healthy weight.
- [23:10]
A
I don't know about you, but sometimes it is very hard for me to have my vegetable intake, you know, throughout the week. It is way more convenient to get a burger and fries or some wings. And so that's the reason why I think field of greens is clutch, because it allows us to get our vegetable intake while we're on the go, while we're in the car talking with the kids. Or even working out. And so I think having a supplement like this is a game changer, especially if we're trying to stay healthy as we get up there, because I'm getting up there in age and you are too, bucko.
- [23:38]
B
Go into your next physical, confident, one scoop once a day. Done. Make field of greens your one smart change this year. You can check out the university study and get 20% off@fieldofgreens.com promo code Perry. That's fieldofgreens.com promo code perry. I could, I could see somebody feeling like it ain't that deep. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, okay, you got bullied. Okay. You was talked too crazy. We all, we all got to protect ourselves on, on some level. And I, I think one of the main issues is that shame is rooted in a lie.
- [24:17]
A
Yeah.
- [24:18]
B
And so we are literally centering and molding our lives and how we navigate everything around a lie. You know what I'm saying? So one, a core lie for me. And it's a core lie because these seeds are planted so young before our brains are even developed. And so it becomes really ingrained in even our identity. And so a really significant core lie for me is that you have to protect yourself. That's a lie. Because God is my protector. All people are not unsafe. And so what that lie has created is that I move around, I move, move through the world, not trusting nobody, including the people God has called me to trust, which means I'm not as free, which means I'm not as loving, which means I. I've even developed the capacity to not access my emotions as much as I should, which affects my empathy. And so you got to see that the lie has far reaching effects. So it's like, that's why the Lord wants us to deal with shame, because God wants us to deal with truth. That like, we're people who are supposed to love and be rooted in the truth.
- [25:30]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [25:30]
B
You know what I'm saying?
- [25:31]
A
Yeah. What would you say some of the gospel implic. Like, what does the gospel say about shame and how we, how we should approach shame in light of the gospel?
- [25:44]
B
Well, I mean, in the New Testament, you don't really see that word like that. But I do think that when it comes to how we deal with truth, how we deal with light, how we deal with freedom, I think it all applies to that. I think I was even reading. I think it's Second Corinthians, it might be First Corinthians where Paul talks about strongholds and we have over spiritualized strongholds where we all, we automatically think it's a dumb, it's a demon over our minds or possessive, some type of possession or something like that. But a stronghold is literally a untruth that has lodged itself in your brain and is keeping the knowledge of God out. My gosh, that's it.
- [26:32]
A
That's actually very different. Deep. What you mean that, that a stronghold is a knowledge of like, like, I, I don't want to mess up what you said, but just like it's a belief system. It's a belief system and I'm a visual person and so I think I, I, I receive. It was visual for me. Like, it's a stronghold that's literally preventing truth from seeking.
- [26:52]
B
In.
- [26:52]
A
Yeah, it's like that's, yeah, that's, that's
- [26:56]
B
deep because in, in, in Paul talks about that because he is dealing with this belief that the Corinthian church has about him that because he goes through the amount of sufferings that he goes through, he is not a legitimate apostle. That is a belief system that is now keeping his testimony, his wisdom, his instruction from the Lord out of their minds. So it's a stronghold. And so shame can be a stronghold. If I'm believing something about God, about others and about myself, that is literally not true. And I have to remove it so that the knowledge of God. God can come in. And so I think that is what the gospel does, is that the gospel exposes the lies and the gospel replaces the lies. The lies is you are safe. The lies. The lie is you are valuable. I mean, the truth is you are safe. The truth is you are valuable. Like that's the truth. Because you're made in the image of God because Jesus died for you, because Jesus saved you. Jesus is changing you. Jesus is resurrecting you. The gospel has everything to do with shame.
- [27:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, the gospel. Yeah. It's literally the opposite of saying shame. It's like the Shane says that we're not worthy. The gospel says you were not worthy, but a worthy one died on your place, and so now in him you are forgiven, you are worthy, you are embraced, you are loved, you have value. You are you created in Imago de the image of God. And shame robs of that. I love what it says in Hebrews 12, 2. It says looking, looking to Jesus, the founder and the perfector of our faith, who for the joy that was set him, endured the cross. And I love this word, despising the shame. And, and it's, it is seated at the right Hand of the throne of God. Because I think like when it. When it says that he endured the cross, of course we know the. The cross is big. The cross is him enduring the cross encompasses, you know, him. Him having to be. To be the propitiation for our sins, taking on wrath and punishment, all that the like, bearing our sins upon himself or whatever. But I think when despising the shame, I love that word despise, because it could have said any word. It could have said, you know, rejecting the shame, despising the shame. Because the cross did bring a lot of shame. Like the cross was the most. One of the most shameful deaths of his time.
- [29:22]
B
Mind you, he was naked.
- [29:24]
A
Yeah, he was naked.
- [29:25]
B
So you have inherently shameful.
- [29:27]
A
Yeah, so. So you have a savior who is naked and you have one of the most shameful deaths of his time. And he said he despised it. And I think what, what that shows me is that Jesus is saying that y' all salvation was ever so before me. The joy of yalls salvation was ever so before me. Like the shame of the cross was literally like he despised it, like he pitied it, like it wasn't nothing to him in comparison to the joy that was set before him. And I think that when we think about that, we see how much shame cheats us. And I was thinking about Shane one day and I was like, shame cheats everybody. Yeah, like it. What 1.
- [30:11]
B
A lie always does.
- [30:12]
A
Yeah, I think, I think, I think. And when I say everybody, it cheats God, it cheats yourself and it cheats the people around you. And I think the way it cheats God, I think it cheats God in the sense that if. If the Lord died one of the most shameful deaths of his time so that you won't have to experience to operate inconsistent shame is kind of like, what did he die for? Right? And so it's like. It's like if you sacrifice a lot for your child for them to experience something, but they not really basking in this gift that you've given them. It's kind of like, man, like, what did I. What did I do this for? And so it's a robber of God, but it's also a robber of you. Like, grace is freely given, you know what I'm saying? Forgiveness is freely given. His love is freely given. His forgiveness. Forgiveness is freely given. And when we operate in shame, it's like, no, like this stuff is free, you know what I'm saying? And so it just robs you. And I think also too, shame robs others because there's been times where. Cause I think shame makes us so inwardly looking.
- [31:24]
B
Yes.
- [31:25]
A
It makes us hyper focus on our sin, hyper focus on ourselves. And there's been times where I feel like I was sinned against with people and then I found myself in a conversation comforting them more so than they repented for the thing that they did against me. And I think shame cheats others because it doesn't allow us to truly repent because it doesn't allow us to even forgive ourselves. So if we don't forgive ourselves, we can not truly ask for forgiveness for other people. And so the people that's in your life, they getting cheated out of. Of really experiencing you, really experiencing, you know, what true repentance looks like. Because repentance looks like change. And I think shame doesn't allow us to change ultimately. I think it just allows us to be hyper focused on ourselves, which therefore cheats so many people. So it just. It just cheats everybody. I think that's what I'm trying to communicate.
- [32:22]
B
I think I processed this with Evaneser on his podcast. Cause I was telling him how I can struggle with shame often when it comes to failure and not living up to a certain standard. And I think I want to say this carefully. I think the way we talk about shame sometimes can make our victim mentality valid to the point where we don't also see some of the egotistical nature of shame.
- [32:58]
A
Okay, what do you mean by that? Okay, I think I know what you
- [33:01]
B
mean, but I'm saying what you were saying. But because again, shame is a turning in on yourself and seeing your. Even though. Even though you're seeing yourself in a way that isn't true, you're still looking at yourself rather than looking at God to tell you about yourself, right? And I just started to think, I was just like, huh? I was like, I think some of my. I said not all. I was like, I think some of my issue with shame is that I just got a big ego. You know what I'm saying? I even think about Eden yesterday. Preston. Eden is supposed to let down the garage door, and Preston is trying to tell her how to let down the garage door. And she gets mad and angry because he's telling her how to do the right thing. And so on one end is like, she's a perfectionist. She wants to do the right thing. But it's also, you don't want to fail because of what it communicates to you about you. And so if I fail because I sinned in this way or I didn't live up to this standard or I didn't do this thing. It's like, no, you want to always win because it makes you feel good about you when in fact, fact some of that shame would actually dissipate if you weren't as self centered. So I'm, I'm not saying that all that like we shouldn't like hold each other and be like, I'm so sorry that they told you that. But I am saying some of this is pride. Yeah, that's what, that's what I'm trying to get it. It's just some of it is like pride.
- [34:34]
A
Yeah. And that's the reason why, you know, I love having children because children, their ways often is a reflection of how you show up with the Lord. Growing up, I did not hear about life insurance. I never knew the importance of, you know, securing a future for my children and my children's children. And so that's why I think that anything that allows us to start thinking about life insurance now is a win not just for our kids, but for generations to come.
- [35:01]
B
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- [35:13]
A
Lazy boy.
- [35:14]
B
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- [36:08]
A
Does even when I, you tell, I told her like you're doing this wrong. And she was I'm not doing it wrong. I'm like, you are doing it Wrong.
- [36:14]
B
First of all, when you was talking to her, I was like, oh, she acting like me?
- [36:17]
A
Yeah, I didn't want to say that, but glad you said it. So you are doing it wrong. Let me show you how to do it. And then when I showed her that she was actually doing it wrong, I saw this anger and this shame, and it's like, what the reality should be. Oh, I was taught how to do something right. Now I know how to do it right. There should be a delight and a joy in that. But because she's focused on I'm not doing something right, she's personalizing it way too much. And you and I do the same thing with the Lord. I do the same thing with the Lord all the time. It's like, lord, okay, yeah, I wasn't handling that relationship right. And the Lord was like, I tried to show you doing this, doing that, doing that. But you wanted the joy of figuring out yourself because you got an ego problem. That's not my problem. And so when I finally show you how to do it right, you experience shame same because you got ego problem. You know what I'm saying? And so a lot of it is connected to our wounded ego and our wounded pride. I think that we. I think we ultimately want to be our own mini gods.
- [37:20]
B
The same reason why they go to a plant to cover themselves when they could have went to God to cover themselves. It's like, we don't. Because to go to God means I have to. To deal with what I'm seeing. Who told you you were naked? Like, and so I. I think. I think sometimes shame might be a cue to some things that we need to repent of and we need to process with the Lord and we need to. To work through. And so even with Eden, it makes me curious. Like, when I start meeting because she's going to middle school, and so I'm going to start, like, meeting with her about her emotions more diligently. But to me, it says, what is your self talk about yourself? Sound like, how are you viewing?
- [38:07]
A
That's a good question.
- [38:07]
B
Yeah. How, How. What is your self talk? Because for her to be so defensive when being taught something or instructing something must mean that you're trying to protect yourself from being looked at. Like, do you find value in being smart? Do you find value in figuring, oh, my sugar loaf, I was high? Do you find, like, what do you. I don't know. I guess I want to understand how she views her identity, and I think that plays a part in how she's
- [38:36]
A
experiencing That's a really good, that's a really great question to ask somebody. And I think the reason why it's a question because a great question to ask somebody is because how somebody shows up in their day to day life oftentimes would dictate or kind of display what type of lies that they're telling themselves.
- [38:57]
B
Absolutely.
- [38:58]
A
You know, because it's like a lot of our actions are just a bunch of fig leaves that we're trying to do to cover up lies about ourselves and to make ourselves feel better about ourselves. And so I deal with this a lot with men. You know, I'm about to start my next book about biblical manhood. And we talk, even when I process with you, just talking a lot about shame. A lot of men's issues, it's just shame. And so we overcompensate with, you know, muscles or how many women we can sleep with or how dominant we can appear in a room and how much, you know, somebody doesn't take advantage of us and how well people think that we're a great leader in our home. It's a whole bunch of fig leaves because we actually don't believe that we are who God says we are. And so, you know, a lot of things are done out of insecurity because we just don't. We don't believe God when it comes to who he says he is in our lives. And I think, you know, that's just, that's just a part of the human fall and the human condition. We are just so. We broken. We're broken people.
- [40:05]
B
That's a connection I made when I did the study as it related to false teaching, because I was just really intrigued by why people were so interested in sermons and books and podcasts that made, made much of them and not as much of God. And what I traced it back to was shame in the sense of one way we try to deal with shame is by. Through flattery. And so that's the muscles. It's like if I feel small, let me make myself bigger, so I'm flattered and there for coping with the shame. Or let me, if I feel like I'm not important or I'm not, I don't have dignity. Let me listen to sermons that just gas me all day long because that's the way that I'm gonna restore my dignity is by somebody feeding my pride. And I think one of the core issues is that some of our shame is that we just don't like the fact that we are, are actually weak. That's True. We are actually fragile. That's true. We are actually limited. That's true. And so some of it is us trying to get beyond our humanity and we can't. And so I think if we become a little more content with being in this frame, then we wouldn't have to have all these fig leads because God is the strong one, God is the wise one, God is the perfect one. He. All the things that we're trying to get through these fig leaves he has in himself and I'm united to Him.
- [41:53]
A
Yeah.
- [41:54]
B
And so I don't know, I feel like we're exploring a lot of different things, but it's just multi layered. There's shames that, that's been put on us through trauma that we got to deal with. That shame that we're putting on ourselves because of our ego, their shame that we're dealing with just because we're discontent with being human. It's so many things.
- [42:12]
A
Yeah. And it's crazy how shame can get in the way of like, ministry so much.
- [42:17]
B
Yeah.
- [42:18]
A
And how, like, because what you just said. But also too, like in my last book, how to Tell the Truth, a lot of, a lot of apologists that I've ran into around the country was like, why you wanted to talk about like, behavior and, and, you know, conduct or whatever. And I, I told them, I was like, I've heard so many different argumentations about evangelism and apologetics. But one thing that we do, we don't really explore is how many people are in this field because of shame. How, how many people are actually in this field because they felt like they were not significant. And having great argumentations make you feel like you're somebody finally. And it's, it's, it's. I don't think it's just a coincidence that a lot of people in this, in this field are nerds. It's like you were not affirmed, you were shamed. And so this is a way for you to kind of like, this is a fig leaf.
- [43:09]
B
Yeah.
- [43:09]
A
And like, I think God really does care. And it's like even if you were NER dirty, you're still accepted by the Lord, you know, and so just, just questioning our motives of why we do things and society. The root, the root of, of a lot of why we do things is, is shame.
- [43:29]
B
And, and what's important about that especially, especially as it relates to ministry is if somebody is in apologetics because they are looking to this work to build significance, then it means you' to feed you. That's the danger yeah, that's selfish ambition.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah.
- [43:50]
B
It's self centered and it's, it's not faith and therefore love. And so I, I think that's why we gotta, that's why we gotta identify it and deal with it. Because it's like if I'm looking to anything to feed me and to sustain me more than God, that thing will always be an idol in my life.
- [44:09]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:12]
B
That's how deep shame is.
- [44:13]
A
Is that it?
- [44:14]
B
It doesn't, it doesn't make us holy.
- [44:16]
A
Yeah. I, I think about what you said in the beginning about third grade, and I think about what a terrible year. Yeah. I think about me, fourth grade. I think what threatens shame initially is the, the uncertainty of security.
- [44:34]
B
What do you mean threaten shame?
- [44:35]
A
Not threaten shame. I'm sorry, invoke shame. That's what I'm going to say. But invoke shame is when our security is met. Messed up. It's like when we, like when we stop feeling secure in life, relationships, circumstances, school. Like, like I think God in his. Like, I think God's original intent is for us to be in community with people. For us not to be, you know, says it's not good for men to be alone. We're meant to flourish. We was originally meant to flourish without sin. But I think when sin is involved, I think our security, like your security and yourself, the people around you, was threatened. My security that I am seeing, that my mind was made by a holy and a righteous God. That idea was threatened. And I think when security, when our security is messed with, I think then it's like it's way easier to fall ashamed because it's like, I guess I'm not. I'm trying to say how I have it in my mind. I think when our security gets messed up, messed up. It's just like, it just messes up everything.
- [45:47]
B
Yeah.
- [45:47]
A
And when I think about the gospel, I think Jesus came after, you know, man failed in the garden after sin entered into the world to really give us a security again to say, okay, things were. I originally created man in my image and in my likeness. And because I'm a good and a holy and a righteous God, I created y' all and I called y' all good. The gospel starts off with the good news, bad news. Sin entered the world. Sin entered into the human condition. Condition. Now y' all all jacked up. Now all of y' all are insecure because there's really no real security when sin entered into the world for sure. Right now I send my son to die A death that you deserve to live a life that you can live to. To. To take the sins of the world upon himself. And now in him, you are forgiving, you are loved. And I think the Christian fight is to believe that we have security in that.
- [46:43]
B
Yes.
- [46:44]
A
Like, real security. And it's very hard to remember that. I know I just said a lot, but I think in my mind, that's what I.
- [46:52]
B
The gospel gives us security in an insecure world.
- [46:55]
A
It is. Thank you for just simplifying that. The gospel gives us security in a very insecure world because nothing really in this world is secure except Jesus.
- [47:06]
B
Like, nothing, I think, because I'm thinking about how. How, like, you know, the Bible tells us to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and love our neighbor as ourself. I think the Lord uses the church and uses people to also be condu. Conduits of that security. What I mean is, I remember we keep bringing up Eden, but it was probably last year. Somebody was talk.
- [47:34]
A
I'm just texting, I'm shooting podcast, going
- [47:36]
B
to keep calling me somebody. Some girl or something was talking crazy to Eden at school, and you had picked her up from school, and she. I guess you said she. She looked sad or something like that. And you was like, what's wrong? And then she was like, so and so did this to me. Da, da, da, da. You immediately pulled the car back around.
- [47:59]
A
Oh, yeah, they got me messed up.
- [48:01]
B
What is going on? Sorry, I took my insulin, but the
- [48:06]
A
devil don't want to talk about shame.
- [48:07]
B
You think so? Or I just need to take my insulin. But you pull the car around and you went back into the school and immediately addressed the problem. And I bring that up because the same shame I got from third grade was because I didn't have anybody legitimately to stop. You know what I'm saying? So it's one thing to experience what you experience in that school, and then to have somebody come to your aid, that kind of limits or hinders the full effect of what's happening. But then to go home and there not be any protection. It does. It just. It exacerbates the shame because it communicates that what I'm experiencing here, I'm actually not safe nowhere. So for you, I was like. I told you, I was like. You literally put an immediate stop to something that could have dictated how she viewed life, period.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah.
- [49:06]
B
And so I'm saying, I think as Christians, as parents, as friends, as leaders, as nurses, as teachers, I think even the Lord can use us to be conduits. Of security.
- [49:17]
A
That's really good in people where it's
- [49:19]
B
like, we're able to. Because that's the anchoring. It's the. No, you're. You're going to be okay. I'm sorry that you went through that. You did not deserve that. To have those words of affirmation spoken over people in any circumstance, I think is a part of our job as Christians is to do that.
- [49:36]
A
Yeah. That's so good. Because that is a big responsibility to know that what we do and don't do has the potential to affect how somebody see God.
- [49:44]
B
Yes.
- [49:45]
A
Later on in life.
- [49:46]
B
Yes.
- [49:46]
A
It's like, yeah, like, I think me sticking up for my child or anybody says God protected me in the form of Preston seven years ago, you know, which is. Which is a huge thing. And I think. And shame is not the only thing that comes. Comes with stuff like you.
- [50:04]
B
You.
- [50:04]
A
And even I experience. But shame has a lot to do with a lot of it. That's. That's a good observation. Yeah. Because I even. Even, you know, I think I'm just a nat. I'm naturally. I'm a protector, period. But I think about, you know, just generational cycles, you know, and how the enemy wants to continue generational cycles of shame, of lies or whatever. And I think we, as Christians and parents, we gotta be aware of that. Yeah, you do like it. So if my wife experienced certain things, it's like, oh, you want my daughter to experience it too? It's like, nah, we ain't having that. You know what I'm saying? We good. We good on that. She gonna feel protected. She gonna feel overprotected. She gonna get tired of me actually protecting her, like, dad, go home. Go home, Buckle. You know? But that's a good observation.
- [50:53]
B
Yeah, I think it's. I think it's part of. Of, like, the ethic of, like, how Jesus wants us to care for the least of these. The widow, the. The orphan, the. You know what I'm saying? Like, even how you talk to people, strangers, people who are on the street and unhoused, like, how do you. How do you. Do you dignify them or do you add to the shame? You know what I'm saying? When they pull up and ask you for some food or whatever, like, I'm basically trying to say, like, I think how we show up as Christians in the church, in the world, in our friendships and our relationships and our parenting and our leadership can either add to or remove shame in people's lives.
- [51:31]
A
Yeah.
- [51:31]
B
And I think that's Important to, to be thoughtful about. Like, we're not just, I don't want us just dealing with our shame, just to deal with us because that continues to make it really self centered. But to say like, no, I want to deal with me so I can love better.
- [51:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. And how, how is that love expressed to others? And then too, I, I know that's going to sound just Christian, but it's so true. And I've. We've probably heard this so many times. Reminding ourselves of the gospel daily really does help. Reminding yourself that you have been forgiven by a holy and a righteous God. Meditating on everything that he has endured for you, for you to have life. Meditating on how he wants communion with you and how he is giving you an opportunity to commune with him forever. Like meditating on the gospel really does, I think can have a, A, a longing impact on how we view ourselves and how we view others and how we show up for others. Because I think a lot of times when dealing with shame, it's just in some way we have lost sight of the gospel. Or it might be evidence that you, there's something in there that's not making you believe the gospel that you are even looking at. And so just meditation on the gospel that you are forgiven that like there is nothing that you can do to deserve the righteous, the love of God, but He is freely giving it to you because He's a good God. So just rest in that. Embrace that. You know what I'm saying?
- [52:55]
B
Yeah. Read the Bible more than you think about yourself.
- [52:57]
A
Absolutely.
- [52:58]
B
So we'll put some resources in the show notes to go deeper on the, on the subject and on the topic. But yeah, let's get free guys.
- [53:08]
A
Peace.
- [53:08]
B
Adios with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairly edited by the team at Church Tread Lively artwork by Hob thank you for listening. Now go with God.