Turning the Cheek and Forgiving Offenses with Yana Conner

Summary

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Podcast Summary: With The Perrys

Episode: Turning the Cheek and Forgiving Offenses with Yana Conner

Date: November 17, 2025
Guests: Preston Perry, Jackie Hill Perry, and Yana Conner

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Main Theme

This episode explores the deeply challenging and radically necessary practice of forgiveness, focusing on what it means to forgive others “God’s way.” Drawing from her new book, Living Beyond Offense: Doing the Hard Work of Forgiveness God’s Way, Yana Conner joins Preston and Jackie Hill Perry for an honest, practical, and theologically-rooted conversation. The discussion includes biblical foundations, the inner work of forgiveness, the boundaries of reconciliation, and why forgiveness is essential for Christian life and witness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Yana’s Reluctance & Journey to Writing About Forgiveness

• Yana did not feel naturally equipped to write on forgiveness.
  • “She knew this wasn’t like a strength of mine … It was like the Achilles heel of my walk with the Lord.” (04:39)
• The call to write emerged from personal weakness and recognition of its necessity in healing, especially in contexts like church hurt.
  • “If we are the people of God, then we should be people who have something robust to say about forgiveness.” (05:12)

2. Spiritual Warfare and Writing

• Writing about forgiveness surfaced unresolved personal relationships and fresh conflicts, intensifying the book’s authenticity.
• Yana experienced technical setbacks—like losing two weeks of edits hours before a deadline—which tested her faith and reliance on God.
  • “It really, like, disrupted my faith a little bit because I was like, God, you got me out here … you gotta have my back.” (09:25)
• Spiritual warfare and the Lord’s refining work are both at play during such significant spiritual endeavors. (06:19–10:19)

3. Shalom-Making and Peacemaking

• The conversation centers forgiveness in the broader theology of “shalom” (biblical peace), not merely being passive, but actively working toward wholeness and justice.
  • “Biblical peace isn’t the absence of conflict, it’s the presence of harmony.” (14:30, quoting Dr. Tim Mackey)
• Both justice and mercy are core components; forgiving does not mean ignoring harm but working for true rightness and relationship.
• “When we make peace, we prove that we are his children. We carry his shalom, making his merciful, compassionate DNA.” (13:56)

4. Turning the Other Cheek

• The call to “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5) is not a call to suffer more, but to humbly confront, aiming to restore dignity to both parties.
  • “If they slap you with an open-handed slap, then they are restoring to you your dignity. Because an open-handed slap is … between equals.” (17:17)
• The real goal: awaken the offender’s conscience and point to shared humanity. (15:51–18:00)

5. The Human Tendency Toward Self-Preservation

• The origins of offense and defensive behaviors are rooted in Genesis 3. Adam and Eve’s reaction to sin introduces self-consciousness, self-centeredness, and self-preservation into relationships.
• “We are all self conscious, we are self centered, and we all are trying to save ourselves because we don’t like being vulnerable.” (21:10)
• The response to offense often involves blame-shifting, shame, and hiding.

6. Escaping Shame & Living Forgiven

• The hosts and Yana distinguish between forgiving oneself and living as forgiven by God.
  • “Nowhere in scripture do we see anybody forgiving themselves. … Your work isn’t to forgive yourself. Your work is to live forgiven.” (27:39, 27:53)
• Ongoing shame is self-absorbed and keeps people from true repentance and reconciliation.
• “Shame, condemnation, all those things—it is self orienting. … That self pity keeps you from repentance.” (30:56–31:25)

7. Jesus’ Forgiveness of Judas as a Model

• A deep dive into John 13 reveals Jesus’ washing of Judas’ feet and sharing communion as radical acts of forgiveness, even toward betrayal.
  • “Not only did Jesus wash this man’s feet, but he allowed him to participate in communion. … He offers Judas communion again.” (36:50)
• Jesus’ security in the Father, his purpose, and his future empowers him to forgive from a place of freedom:
  • “He’s not forgiving for freedom. He’s forgiving from a place of freedom.” (40:33)
• Practical note: The pain of offense is temporary in light of eternity with God. (41:06)

8. The Work & Process of Forgiveness

• Forgiveness requires deliberate steps:
  1. Honest acknowledgment of the offense before God and with trusted people.
  2. Invite God to search your own heart for idolatry, unrealistic expectations, or self-centered motives.
  3. Decide before God to forgive and not retaliate (forgiveness is a decision, not a feeling).
  4. Humbly confront the offender when appropriate, without expecting a certain response.
  5. Discern whether reconciliation is possible (which is distinct from forgiveness).
  6. Restoration of trust is gradual and must be earned.
• “You can’t forgive something that you’re not willing to honestly acknowledge.” (46:43)
• Forgiveness ≠ trust. Forgiveness ≠ reconciliation. (53:02–53:59)

9. Boundaries & Restructuring Relationships

• The Bible allows for setting boundaries and even ending relationships if repentance is lacking.
• “If they still don’t listen, he says, treat them like a gentile or a tax collector.” (58:06)
• Decision to limit or redefine access to an offender should be made with spiritual counsel.
  • “I didn’t make that decision by myself. … I had other people speaking into whether or not it was healthy for me to continue.” (60:08)

10. Ghosting & the Silent Treatment

• Ghosting is framed as unloving and undignified; avoidance may stem from an unwillingness to be vulnerable.
  • “When we ghost people … we aren’t loving them well.” (62:08)
• The silent treatment is a form of vengeance, withholding oneself as punishment. (64:41–64:54)

11. The Gospel Witness of Forgiveness

• Every act of forgiveness puts the gospel on display, inviting others to glimpse God’s mercy through us.
  • “Every time we forgive someone, we proclaim the gospel. We put the mercy of Christ on display.” (65:14)
• Forgiveness is central for the health of churches, marriages, friendships, and families.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If forgiveness feels out of reach, reach for the cross—the cross that saved you.”
  — Yana Conner [42:14]

• “Your work isn’t to forgive yourself. Your work is to live forgiven.”
  — Yana [27:53]

• “When we are wrestling with forgiving ourselves, we are actually the ones who are bringing charges up against ourselves … partnering with Satan in that condemnation.”
  — Yana [28:34]

• “He’s not forgiving for freedom. He’s forgiving from a place of freedom. … He knows that God’s going to pay the debt.”
  — Yana [40:33]

• “Forgiveness is the merciful decision to release an offender of their debt and to not retaliate against them in anger.”
  — Yana [50:33]

• “Forgiveness also doesn’t equal trusting someone fully again. … It’s not actually wise for you to continue to trust them in that way.”
  — Yana [53:59]

• “When we ghost people … we aren’t loving them well.”
  — Yana [62:08]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Yana’s background: [00:40–04:43]
• Spiritual struggle of writing about forgiveness: [06:19–10:19]
• Shalom-making, peacemaking, and justice: [11:47–15:51]
• Turning the other cheek, Jesus' context: [15:51–19:25]
• The root of offense: self-consciousness and preservation: [19:25–22:21]
• Shame, repentance, and self-forgiveness: [26:01–30:17]
• The example of Jesus & Judas, forgiving betrayal: [32:24–41:19]
• How to move through practical forgiveness work: [46:25–53:59]
• Forgiveness, reconciliation, trust, and boundaries: [55:07–61:56]
• Ghosting and the silent treatment: [62:00–64:54]
• Forgiveness as gospel witness (closing charge): [65:14–66:24]

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Tone & Delivery

The conversation is deeply honest, theologically rich, and frequently peppered with empathy, conviction, and humor. The Perrys’ trademark banter and authenticity create both vulnerability and encouragement, making difficult spiritual truths accessible and actionable.

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Conclusion

Forgiveness, according to Yana and the Perrys, is “a labor of love” that is not optional for followers of Christ. It’s a declaration of the gospel, the practical outworking of peace, and a means by which communities and relationships can truly heal and thrive. The episode dismantles the myth that forgiveness must always be easy, quick, or result in restored intimacy, while also insisting that pursuing it is essential—both for personal health and gospel witness.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign assurance.

[B]

What up with y'? All?

[A]

This is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine.

[B]

That's what the song say.

[A]

Air of salvation, purchase of God.

[B]

Talk to him.

[A]

I don't know the rest.

[B]

Yeah, I knew you was. I knew you was gonna be. Get. She always thought off.

[A]

I don't know the gospel, though. How are you, sir?

[B]

Sleepy.

[A]

Why are you sleepy?

[B]

Because you know why I'm sleepy.

[A]

I'm asking so they know you prayed.

[B]

For me this morning. Because I didn't sleep last night.

[A]

Why are you not sleeping?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't know. They're getting too personal.

[B]

I feel like it's just demons.

[A]

You think it's warfare?

[B]

Just holding my eyelids open at night.

[A]

Wow. Okay. Is it stress?

[B]

Probably. I'm doing a lot right now.

[A]

Okay, so you're not resting.

[B]

Yeah, it's just, you know, I just got back from Nashville and now we're doing podcasts, and I gotta go to Africa tomorrow, and it's just a lot. So what's going on?

[A]

So how can we be praying for you?

[B]

I just can't wait until our yearly Sabbath. It makes me so happy when I could just watch football. I could just eat your chili and cornbread and just sit on the couch and watch football all day. Don't do nothing.

[A]

Well, you know, technically, you can have cessation from work and not be rested.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

So the bigger issue is how do we.

[B]

Good way to reign a masquerade.

[A]

How do we get that rest that you need?

[B]

I cast my cares.

[A]

Okay. Because he cares for you.

[B]

How you doing? You pretty? Your makeup even.

[A]

We just want to. Welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Hey, you see? See, you don't want to focus on your prettiness.

[A]

Hi, Yana. Connor. How are you?

[B]

Good.

[A]

I'm doing well.

[B]

What's good with you?

[A]

He's gonna have to forgive me for those offenses.

[C]

Oh, man, that's crazy.

[A]

You know, but we're so glad to have you here. Yana is. Would you call yourself a theologian? Do that feel too big?

[C]

It feels too big.

[B]

It ain't too big.

[C]

It feels too big.

[B]

But it's true.

[C]

I. I love theology. If theology is about musing on the character of God, the ways of God, then yes, because you went to school. I did go to school.

[A]

What'd you get?

[C]

I got an M. Div In Christian ministry.

[A]

How many credit hours was that?

[C]

It was like 90 credit hours. And do you know that these people had the nerve, like, to, like, lessen it, like, right when I graduated. So for me, it was 90 credit hours to get the M. Div. I think now it's like 70 or something like that.

[A]

Well, in hindsight, that made you came out a little bit fuller, a little more little text, a little bit more robust.

[B]

Know what he can put on. Put on certain people. Because I need that 70. I probably need about 50. But you. You was equipped for 90, so.

[A]

Not I. Yana is also from St. Louis.

[C]

STL shoddy shout out to you. Let's go.

[A]

I don't remember what school you went to, though.

[C]

Oh, man, that's crazy. So I went to Catholic School, St. Thomas Aquinas Mercy.

[A]

I feel like I told you that. I could tell. Oh, dang. That's. No, that's not shady. That's not shady. Because the school people go to. The school people go to tells you a lot about them and even about their upbringing. Cause to me that means like, oh, they really cared about you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Not.

[C]

Cause they.

[A]

My mom didn't care about me.

[C]

I could have been at U City.

[A]

Ooh, yeah. You'd be a different person.

[C]

Yeah, I would be a completely different person.

[A]

People don't understand.

[B]

Cause I didn't roll through St. Louis.

[A]

St. Louis is rough. Yeah, it's rough.

[B]

I ain't gonna offend y'. All.

[A]

But anywho, Yana got a book that I'm a. I'm a. I want you to gird up your loins. You know what I'm saying? That's not to say be afraid. That ain't what I'm saying. I'm just saying Yana has written a book that I think gets at the heart not only of the Christian faith, but the heart of the. Our disunity in our marriages, in our friendships, in our churches. I think it's. I think this book is just so necessary and valuable because it's so difficult to do. What is it called? Living beyond defense. Hello. Doing the hard work of forgiveness God's way. I'm not gonna ask you why you wrote it. I hate when people ask me that question.

[B]

And before we get into all the things, I just. I mean, I. I'm an artist and I love art.

[A]

Oh, you like?

[B]

And I like the COVID I really think, like, is. Is. Is a big deal. And I think being simple, but at the same time, creative is. Is a skill. Sometimes people be doing too much.

[C]

Yeah. No, I appreciate that.

[A]

Appreciate that. I ain't going to ask you why you wrote it. I don't like that question.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

It's too easy. It's too boring. But Also, I don't think you wanted to write it.

[C]

No, I didn't.

[A]

That's the question I want to ask.

[C]

Yeah. No, I did not want to. To write this book. I wrote this book out of weakness. My own mama, when I told her, like, yeah, so gonna be writing a book, it's gonna be on forgiveness. She was like, who you? Like, you gonna write a book on forgiveness? Because she knew that this wasn't like a strength of mine. I would even say it was like the Achilles heel of my walk with the Lord. And so I didn't feel qualified to write it. And I could actually think about five people in my life that I had a strained or broken relationship with, and people who would probably laugh in my face if they knew that I was coming out with a book on forgiveness. And so I rest. I remember I had the conversation with the publisher. They were like, bet this is what we're going to do. I ghosted them for two months because I was like, yeah, I don't think I need need to do this. But then I remember going to the JU3 project conference, courageous conversation. And they were having a conversation about church hurt. And as we were moving through the conversations, I was like, yo, like, where does forgiveness enter in? Because at some point, if you're going to heal from church hurt, you have to forgive someone. And so I remember just kind of lobbing that question up on a panel, and I wasn't met with. With much of a response. And I was like, yo, if we are the people of God, then then we should be people who have something robust to say about forgiveness. And so for me, that was kind of my wake up call, that this was a needed and necessary part of the conversation so that people can heal and actually, like, live be offenses that happen in their life.

[B]

I'm curious to know, though, in the book writing process. I think every Christian author goes through spiritual warfare. Oftentimes when we attack a topic, the enemy attack us in that exact same thing. Like, if you're talking about forgiveness and like you said, so many things popped up about, you know, people that you haven't forgave. When I wrote my book about evangelism, I just did not like people.

[C]

All of a sudden, you don't like people.

[B]

Yeah, it's like I was struggling and like, the enemy was fighting me against the very same thing that I was writing to. To put out in the world. So my question is, when you were dealing with all of those personal feelings about, like, how did the Lord. Because even spiritual warfare is not just the enemy. We know it's the Lord also trying to reveal things to us, to bring stuff to the surface, not just for our own healing, but when we work through those things, I just know that it actually comes out better, you know? So how did that process for you look like in dealing with your own personal, you know, relationships and writing this process?

[C]

Yeah, I think in almost with every. The start of every chapter was a new conflict in a relationship with someone who was close to me. And so I felt really bad for my friends because I was like. I feel like y' all are all just catching straights just from being in association with me. And it was, like, friendships. It was stuff in the church, and it was almost as if, like, the very thing that I was writing about was the very thing that we were struggling with. And so that was hard. But I think it helped me to write each chapter for a more honest and, like, vulnerable place, like, from a human place versus from this high and haughty place of, like, this is just what the scripture says. It's like, no, I'm actually wrestling through this. And so I think it helped bring a little bit more color to. To the book. But then not only at that, like, once I started to realize, like, oh, this is a pattern. Like, let me just, you know, let me fall back. Let me be slow to anger, you know, and. And be curious and not make assumptions and those kinds of things. Then it was, like, random stuff, like fraudulent activity on my, like, bank accounts. That happened twice.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And then after that, like, it started with technology as well. And so the. The computer that I wrote the whole book on, when we were doing the edits, the day that I was supposed to turn the edits in, my computer just malfunctioned.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And so Microsoft, like, just pops up. This screen is like, sorry for the inconvenience. And I'm like, I'm not sure what the inconvenience is about to be. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen.

[B]

But my computer freaked out.

[C]

Oh, I did. I was in the library in Durham, downtown. Like, in the library. I couldn't scream because they would have some officers in there. They would have kicked me out. And so I just pushed. Okay. And it, like, completely reset the whole document. Every edit for the last two weeks was lost.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And it was due, like, at midnight, and I think it was, like, 3pm yeah. So I just packed my little stuff up, and I left.

[A]

Did you cry?

[C]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. I'm a thug. But I would have, like, I Would have, I would have shed a couple tears. I'm like, lord, what are you trying to do?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it really, like, disrupted my faith a little bit because I was like, God, you got me out here. Like, you got me out here. Your idea during this thing, doing this thing, like, you gotta have my back.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and what was crazy is that the next day I was supposed to be speaking to some college students at Duke. And the, the. The main idea, if you will, for that time was like, the evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy our faith in a God that is good. And that moment was really trying to kill, steal and destroy my faith in a God that was good and who has my back and who's looking out for me. It was also like the week before my 40th birthday. And so I was like, really? Is this what we're doing? So, thankfully the publishers gave me an extension and then I was able to. To get it done. But I spent my 40th birthday, like in a cabin by myself just trying to get the done. But I wasn't prepared for the kind of grief that would come with that.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Perry.

[A]

You opened up the book talking about shalom makers, which was an interesting way to open up the discussion on forgiveness, I guess, because I just haven't heard. You don't even hear about Sermon on the Mount a lot. One but blessed are peacemakers. It's like, oh yeah, peacemaking is a part of the whole thing. Because you know, when you watch the chosen, you hear shalom, Shalom, shalom, shalom. Like you be thinking like, oh, this is like a doxology. You understand what I'm saying? So how does that, how does shalom making, being a peacemaker, how is that a part of this conversation?

[C]

Yeah, and so for me, shalom is a theology that has really helped me navigate life. One me understanding what we were all created for. Like we were all created to live in a garden filled with shalom, filled with wholeness, where everyone thrives, everyone has what they need. This picture of Adam and Eve standing in the garden, naked and unashamed is just really beautiful to me because they don't have a care in the world. Like, they don't have to watch each other's back. They're not like self centered and overly con, you know, concerned about themselves. They're just able to coexist with one another with complete acceptance and harmony. And for me, it's the most beautiful but like heartbreaking picture in the Bible because it's like, oh, this is the thing that we're all longing for. We all want to stand before other people naked and unashamed, but we often stand before one another clothed and ashamed, right? And so like that's, that was sort of the tension for me is like, man, this is the thing that we're longing for, particularly when our relationships, you know, become broken. And then for me, Ephesians 1, 9 and 10 have really become formative for me. Where Paul says, this is the mystery of God's will, which is to unite all things, things in the heavens and the earth, in Christ. And then in Ephesians, Paul continues to talk about how in God has reunited us to him in the first half of Ephesians 2, and then how he's reunited us to one another. And so I'm like, if this is what God has been up to since Genesis 3, since the beginning of time, like what does it look like for me to partner with him in that? And I think in Matthew 5 we get the language where Jesus says, blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. And it makes sense that we're that he says they shall be called the children of God. He doesn't give that, you know, title to any other of these nine beautiful groups, but to that one he does. Because we are made in the image of a God who makes shalom and a God who seeks to make peace. And so when we make peace, we prove that we are his children. We carry his shalom, making his merciful, compassionate DNA.

[A]

What is peace, though?

[C]

What is peace? That's so good. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna steal Dr. Tim Mackey from the Bible Project. He says that biblical peace isn't the absence of conflict, it's the presence of harmony. And so you can still have peace. Could still be. You could still be working peace, and there'd be conflict in the midst of that because you're working together to fix the issue.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

So that's the harmony there, right? You're working together to fix the issue so that you can move forward together. And I think for us, like, if you look up peace in the dictionary, it just talks about feelings of tranquility and calm and. And. But that's not biblical peace, because you can have all of that but not have. Have harmony.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

I have a question, though, that's deep. That is. But Martin Luther K said. He said peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so with so much offense out here, so many people have offended us. You know what I'm saying? How does. How do we kind of take the step of making that peace when it's so much offense out here? Yeah, because it is a justice, like, because. Because, you know, when somebody, you know, sins against you, we created an image of God, so we want justice. And so how does one get over that and still seek peace when they've been offended?

[C]

Yeah, I think that's so good. I think Jesus gives us the answer to that question in Matthew 5 when he commands us to. To turn the other cheek. So he says, you've heard it said. He says you've heard it said, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. I say to you, if someone smacks you on your right to turn to them the other. The other cheek.

[B]

That's so hard. That's one of the hardest. You heard Toby song Try Jesus.

[C]

Yeah, we talk about that in the book.

[A]

We talk about the song in the book.

[C]

But I think I always thought that Jesus meant to suffer more abuse.

[A]

Right?

[C]

That's what it sounds like, but that's not actually what that means.

[B]

Break it down You, Honor.

[C]

And so in that culture, if someone would slap you on your right cheek, they essentially are back slapping you.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So they're backslapping you. And in a Jewish culture, which is a shame, and honor culture, this is a very dehumanizing act. And so it's something that a slave owner would do with a slave to say, I am better than you, I am on a higher level than you. I'm in a different class than you. And so when Jesus commands you to turn your other cheek, he's actually commanding you to humbly confront them. And so, because if they slap you now with an open handed slap, then they are restoring to you your dignity. They are restoring back to you your dignity. Because an open handed slap is a slap that is shared between equals.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Right. And so, and that's really, I think the, what the whole power of the civil rights movement was is that they were trying to awaken the conscience of their offenders. And so that's the, the idea is that when you turn the other cheek, the hope is that this person's conscience will awaken for them to recognize, no, we actually are created equal. Equal. Right. We are both in the image of God. So it's your way of saying, no, I am not less than you. Like, I am on your same level and I'm worthy of honor, dignity and respect. Now usually somebody wouldn't slap you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, on the other cheek, they would prefer to pay the fine.

[A]

Unless they're Will Smith.

[B]

That was.

[C]

Yeah, that did make it in the book.

[A]

He went up here with wife's name out of your mouth.

[B]

He went, seriously, Jack, Jackie was sleep. I said, Jackie, I think he.

[A]

No, I was not sleep. I was up.

[B]

You was.

[A]

I thought it was a skit until he start cussing. And he wasn't ending it out. It was tough. He. But go ahead. It was a tough moment.

[C]

But like, you know, Chris Rock, he didn't, he didn't slap him back.

[A]

He sure did not.

[C]

Which I thought was like, wow, bro, that's crazy. Yeah, you're a real one, you know, for that. And so the goal is that like their conscience would awaken. And so it's like, how do we move forward with people who've offended us? Right. Particularly in this moment where we're all concerned with justice. And we should. Because being a shalom maker also means to, to, to love mercy and to do, to do justice. But how do we do it in a way where we're not just trying to be punitive in our justice?

[A]

Define that.

[C]

Where we're not trying to punish them, right? We're not trying to cancel them. We're not trying to make them feel bad about themselves. We're not trying to dehumanize them in the same way that they do dehumanize, dehumanize us. But instead we are turning the other cheek in hopes that they would be restored to a right thinking about themselves and about, about others.

[A]

That's excellent. You talk about how in our society people are self conscious, people are self centered and people walk in self preservation. Explain all of that to us.

[C]

Yeah, that's probably like the nerdiest part.

[A]

I love it.

[C]

And so I appreciate you bringing it up, but yeah, like we, we all are sort of inundated with this self conscious, self centered self preservation. And it really starts in Genesis 3. Like we get it, we get it, honest. And so Adam and Eve, they go from this place of being naked and unashamed to being naked and now ashamed. And now they have to cover themselves. So they become self conscious about their bodies and they don't feel as safe as they used to with one another. They become self cent. And then also they become self preserving. Particularly when God comes to Adam, he's like, Adam, where are you? And he's like, you know, just, you know, I heard you coming. I was like, let me go hide. And then after that he's like, did you eat from the tree? And he says, that woman that you gave me, right? And so in that moment, Adam is trying to save himself. He is trying to preserve his own righteousness by throwing Eve under the bus. But then Eve does the same thing. She was like, it was a serpent. Serpent. It was a serpent, right? And so everybody's trying to preserve themselves and they're looking out for themselves. And we all do the same thing. Yeah, we, we are self conscious, we are self centered and we all are trying to save ourselves because we, we don't like being vulnerable, we don't like being wrong, you know, and so when some, when we offend someone instead of just confessing it, it, we hide, right? We deflect. We try to act like it was not that big of a deal when it, when it actually is. But when we're doing that, we're just trying to preserve sort of this, this picture that we have of, of ourselves. But all throughout scripture we see people continuing to behave in this way. Like anytime we see abuse in scripture, that's someone being like really, really self centered and just thinking about their own desires, their own passions, their own pleasures. They're not thinking about how those acts are going to person and disrupt their shalom. And then anytime we see even like with Pharaoh in Exodus, he's trying to save, he's trying to preserve his own people so he's willing to do away with all the Jewish people so that he can be safe and we all behave in that way in small ways. Anytime you try and get the last word in an argument, anytime you are, you know, sending a passive aggressive text, anytime you are giving someone the silent treatment like we, we are all sort of behaving in self conscious, self centered, self preserving way.

[B]

Through the years we've tried to be very intentional about our marriage. One thing that I learned is that over communicating is not a bad thing. Making sure you on the same page is helpful, beneficial, making sure you know her little heart right beating all good and stuff like that. Especially when it comes to me.

[A]

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[B]

I'm really excited about the Weekend to Remember because it's always a blessing when we can be around older couples and just other married couples that we can learn from their experiences, their trials, their tribulations, how they've overcome and you know, God gave us community for a reason and marriages need community as well.

[A]

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[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And to add to that, one of the things that I thought about was how you said Eve tried to shift blame. Adam tried to shift blame. You know, when I first became a Christian, I'm just being all the way 100, and I still struggle with it now. I've dealt with that, like, a lot. When my disciples would call me out, I would just always try to shift the blame. And I think what I was trying to do is what they were trying to do. I didn't want to feel shameful. I didn't want to feel bad. And so it was easier for me to shift the blame because I didn't want to sit in attention to have to look at myself and say, you did this again. You offended somebody again. People, they used to call me Peter because I was just. I had just a loose tongue, like, okay, you stupid. Again, like. And so, like, I. I guess my question is, how does one escape that shame? What are we looking at and what are we not looking at that makes us focus on ourselves so much? When. When God says, why did you do this?

[C]

Why did you know, man, that's so good. So if. If in the beginning we were naked and unashamed, and then we were naked and ashamed, I think in Christ we become clothed and unashamed.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

And so Christ, he clothes us with his righteousness. And so we don't need to be. To be ashamed because our lives are hidden in Christ. And I think for anyone. So I'm glad you brought that up because somebody just messaged me asking me this, the how do I forgive myself question. And I think that kind of points to the. The shame piece. Nowhere in scripture do we see anybody forgiving themselves. Yeah, it's not. It's not a Work that we see anybody doing. When David sins against Bathsheba and Uriah, you know, he. He goes to the Lord, he says, it's against you and you alone that I've sinned. So he recognize his primary. The. The person he's primarily offended is God, and that who. The forgiveness that he needs the most is the Lord's. And so I think when we start getting into this, like, forgive myself sort of rhetoric, what we're doing is that we're putting ourselves actually in the place of God. And So in James 5, it says, There is only one Lawgiver and there's only one judge, and it's just. It's God.

[B]

So would you say instead of using the language, forgive myself? Maybe we need to forget about ourselves in a sense that will make us focus on God, who we offended in other people.

[C]

Yeah. And so my. So I'm like. Anytime I'm like, talking to somebody about this, I'm like, your work isn't to forgive yourself. Your work is to live forgiveness.

[B]

Look at your forehead.

[A]

My God. Say it again. Come on.

[C]

It's to live forgiven. Right? And so in Romans 8.

[B]

That's good.

[C]

You know, he's like, I want y'.

[A]

All to notice all this text she got, huh? Y' all be reading these books that got two verses. This girl ain't even got her Bible open. It's just text. Text.

[B]

Particularly in the third chapter, part B of Roman 8.

[A]

Says what?

[B]

And actually what they mean in the Greek, the Aramaic, in the Hebrew, his.

[A]

Word in our heart. Heart. That's why you can't. I'm just trying. I just wanted y' all to take note. She didn't say about 15 scriptures.

[C]

Come on. But yeah, in Romans 8.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

She won't be awkward. Look at it.

[C]

Well, I was like, I do need.

[A]

To look it up for this one.

[C]

So I appreciate. Says. What then shall we say of these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things, things. Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies who is to condemn. Will it be Christ? He is the one who died more than that, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, and who is currently interceding for us. And so when we are wrestling with this idea of, like, forgiving ourselves, we are actually the ones who are bringing charges up against ourselves. And I remember really struggling, like, to this with this early in my walk with the Lord and him helping me to see that when I'm doing that, I'm joining the accuser of the brethren. I'm partnering with, with Satan in that and the condemnation that he's trying to bring in my life versus receiving God's verdict over my life. Like if he is the judge and he gave the verdict and he is sovereign, he is in control, then his verdict is final. And if he says that if I confess my sins and put my faith in Christ that I am forgiven, then that's, that's the end of it. And who am I to just be in court, you know, and be like, no, no, no, I'm wrong, I need to be locked up, you know, I need to go to jail. And it's like, no, you've been freed. And so why would you return to that? And so the work that we need to do is to live forgiven, to, to like rest in the gospel, to rehearse the gospel, to memorize scripture so that it can be hidden in our heart so that we can remember what Christ has done for us.

[B]

Yeah, because I'll just say this, baby, I'll let you have a question. You got it. Because one thing that I'm still burning a little. One thing that I realized in my own life is that shame. I was often just attacked with shame, you know, but it rarely gave me even room to repent to others because when I sin against others and I need to ask for their forgiveness, I spend that time actually wallowing in my own shame. And so it's actually still unfair to the person that I offended because it's like I should be walking in repentance with them, but I'm actually just still, you know, I mean, wallowing in my own shame, but at the same time the devil's beating me up the whole time.

[A]

Cause shame is shame, condemnation, all those things. It is self orienting, you know, it is, you are, you are turned in on yourself in a way. And I think the double whammy that the, that the flesh and the devil are working is that if I'm focused in on myself because of some, some shame, I didn't do this. Right. I didn't love them. Well, I didn't do that. Then it's like some of that self pity keeps you from repentance.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? You're spending so much. Cause this is me, you spending so much time thinking about what you didn't do.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That there is a convenience that it leaves you from like accountability, you know what I'm saying? Because I think that's some of the warfare is like, get up, obey, say sorry, you're righteous in Christ, you are imperfect. And move along. Just move on along. I want to turn to John chapter 13 because I think a couple months ago yonder was on my deck, we were in the heat, it was hot, it was very hot, but it was quiet. It was either go where the kids.

[C]

Are and the dog, don't forget about and December.

[A]

I think that's when he was fresh out of sick and unwell list. What's that? Sick and sick and shut in list. And you were talking to me about Judas and Jesus. I didn't like what you said, but I love what you said. And so I just.

[B]

She came home and told. I came home and she told me.

[A]

I couldn't believe it.

[B]

Said Yana didn't mess me up on this little porch.

[A]

I was really torn to shreds and pieces. I want to read it and then I just want you to walk us through it. Like I literally, if it take you 10, 15 minutes, I don't care. I just want you to walk us through this text.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Where you want me to start? What verse.

[C]

One of John 13. Well, I love the Bible so. Yeah.

[A]

One now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end during supper, comma, this is where she fin to take us. When the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son. I would be like, why y' all gotta put. If I'm the daddy, don't, don't say, don't put my name. I don't know that that man. I didn't tell him to betray the Messiah. When the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas scarrett to betray him, comma, Jesus, comma, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hand and that he had come from God and was going back to God, comma, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples feet and to wipe them with the towel that he was wrapp around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, lord, do you wash my feet? Jesus answered him, what I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you would understand. Peter said to him, you shall never wash My feet. Jesus answered him, if I don't wash you, you have no share with me. Simon Peter said to him, lord, not my feet only, but my whole body, I'm paraphrasing, but also my hands and my head. Jesus said to him, the one who has bathed does not need to wash except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you. You where we get to the other part. 21.

[C]

Yeah, you right. 21.

[A]

After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit and testified, truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me. The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples, who Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus side. So Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, lord, who is it? Jesus answered, it is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped. So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, what you are going to do, do quickly. Sheesh.

[B]

So at one point I was really convicted about my vegetable intake. Every week it was getting harder to eat vegetables and it was just more convenient to eat french fries and wings every week day. But I think Field of Greens has created a great product for us to have the vegetable intake that we need at a convenient pace to have a supplement that we can have all the nutrients in one glass. It's just been so beneficial to me and I honestly do use the product. It's great.

[A]

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[B]

My first impression when I tried Field of Greens was one, it was tasty. I liked it that they flash freeze their food so you don't really lose any nutrients while at the same time it being tasty. And so it makes drinking it a lot a Lot more enjoyable.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

Your turn. Yes. I think traditionally when we've read this text, we thought that the main characters were Jesus and Peter. But I think Judas is, is actually one of, is more important in this passage than Peter is one because of how John sets up the washing of the feet. But then in the passage, Judas is mentioned three, three times. Like if you read one through 21, he's mentioned all three times. And so just the fact that the first thing he wants you to know is that during supper the devil had already put it in Judas's heart to betray Jesus. And then Jesus, knowing three things, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands and that he had come from God and that he was going back to God. He ro clothes from supper and then he takes off his outer garment. He tells, he ties a towel around his waist and he proceeds to wash his disciples feet. But not just his disciples feet, his betrayer's feet. And then he goes on. And even when this, they're having this whole interaction with Peter, Jesus is like, oh, Peter, you're already clean. But not all of y' all clean, right? So Jesus is there hinting to Judas again. And then it keeps going and I can't find where the verse is. But then he'll say that one of you is gonna betray me. And he's like, it's the person who's already eaten my bread. And it's like, okay, that's really interesting. Why is Jesus talking about bread? Why is this sort of the way of him identifying his betrayer? And I think what Jesus is doing there is, he's. He's hinting to the fact that they've already had communion, right? And we know that communion is representative of the forgiveness that Jesus offers us on the cross. So just think about this. Not only did Jesus wash this man's feet, but he allowed him to participate in communion. And then when he sends Judas off to betray him, he offers Judas communion again. He says, it's the morsel of bread when I dipped it. What, what could he possibly be talking about? Like that. This bread that he dipped it in. And then he gives it to Judas and Then Judas goes and does what what he does. And so for me this has been like a really transformative text because it's like one. Forgiveness is hard. But in here where Jesus says, he's like, in verse 12, he says, do you understand what I've done? He's like, nah, you don't really understand that what I've done. But I've given you this example that you should do just as I have done to you. And I've always just thought about this as Jesus washing his friends feet. But that's not the only person's feet that he's washing in this moment. And so it's not just about us washing, meaning serving and forgiving our friends, but even those who would betray us even unto death, that we would offer to them forgiveness as well. And what I love about this text is that in this Jesus is modeling to us how to do forgiveness God's way. Wow. Because Jesus is free to forgive give. He's not forgiving for freedom. He's forgiving from a place of freedom. Because of these three things. He knows that the Father is going to give him all things. And so yes, Judas, you sinned against me, you owe me a debt. But I don't have to worry about this debt. I don't have to hold you responsible for paying me back. Why? Because I know that God's going to pay the debt. Right? I know that God's going to take care of it. He's going to give me all things. And then he also says the second thing he knows is that he has been sent into the the world. Sent into the world to do what? To forgive sinners. And so I think for us the framework is like, no, we've been sent in the world to be ministers of reconciliation, to be shalom makers. This is a part of what it means to follow Jesus. And then he says, and then he's. He, Jesus knows that he's going to go back to the Father. And I love that because it, it points for me to the fact that all this pain that we're suffering because of the offenses that we occur as we live in a broken and fallen world, all of this pain is temporary.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like we are going back to the Father. And when we know that we're going to go back to the Father, where he's going to wipe away every tear from our eyes, where we are, shalom will be completely restored, then we can say freely, I forgive you.

[B]

Yeah. And forgive you. Yeah. And Jesus models that in John 17 during a high priestly prayer the longest prayer of Jesus in scripture. He talks about, you know, father, receive me back into your hands. He literally says, I kept each and last one of these little ones except the one we predestined for destruction. Talking about Judas and he's now talking about being prepared, like back into the hands of his Father, like, like receive me, Lord. I want to leave this place because I kept the good work of ministry. And so I think looking to Jesus and thinking about heaven is super important because people be getting on my nerve, you know what I'm saying? That's good.

[A]

I mean, when it's come to your own moments where you've had to forgive others, how have you practically worked through verse three, you know, like how have you thought through knowing that the Father has given it all things to his hands, that he come from God and was going back to God? What does that look like?

[C]

Yeah, no, yeah, I'm actually walking through something right now and it's one of those offenses that is like a life changing offense. And the debt initially felt so, so weighty and I just was filled with so much hurt, but also like so anger. But the truth that alleviated me from that was just knowing that God is going to take care of me and also having this track record with God where He's always taking care of me and so, and remembering that my life is not in this person's hands who just offended me, but my life is in the hands of a really, really good God who takes care of his children. He's not a neglectful father, he doesn't abandon. And so for me, in that moment of just feeling all of that pain, I had to remember that God's going to take care of me and not only is he going to make sure that I have what I need, but he's like, he's actually going to heal, heal me. And then remembering that like I am called to forgive, like I'm called to be a shalom maker in the world. I'm called to seek reconciliation when it's possible. And that doesn't mean that it's not going to hurt, doesn't mean it's not going to be awkward. That doesn't mean that the relationship won't be strong, restrained for a while. But how do I take up this, this God given identity and mandate, like to make shalom with this person who, who has offended me. And so I'm doing that out of obedience to Christ, but also out of worship of what he's done for me. Right. And so I often say, like, if if you're having a problem or you're struggling to forgive, like, if forgiveness feels out of reach, like, look like, reach for the cross, like the cross that saved you and I love. And I think that's even part of the reason why Jesus is like, forgive and you'll be forgiven. Forgive and you'll be forgiven. Because it's like, it's from this place of knowing that we are forgiven, that we're able to extend forgiveness that's really good to others. And so you have a forgiveness problem. You might have a gospel problem. You know, you might. There might be some gaps in your understanding of what Jesus has done for you. There might be some gaps in your experience, you know, of what God has done for you, for you. But remembering my identity as a shalom maker and then also just with everything, all suffering, it's just like, this is not the end. This isn't the end of the story. And even, like, I won't just see the, the goodness of the Lord in heaven, but I will also see it in the land of, of the living. And so remembering that I'm going back to the Father and not only is he going to heal me, you know, when I go back, but I also want to, I do want to hear well done, you know, like, and I want, I want to, to please the Lord in the way that I live. And so that sort of motivates me to even move towards forgiveness and even move towards offenders when, when it's hard. And I. Yana, Jana, Connor wants, you know, I want to hide. I want to, you know, I'm. If it's a fight or flight, I'm flighting, you know, that's what I want to do. But I'm choosing to submit, commit to Christ because I know that he loves me and I know that he knows what's best for me. And I think when you start doing the work of forgiveness and you experience like, the joy and the freedom of it, like, it, it helps you to do it again and again and again.

[A]

I like how you explain forgiveness as work, you know, because I. And the work, including pain, grief, lament, hurt, frustration maybe. I think the more hurt you are, the more perplexed you are. It's like, where did that come from? Why is this happening? Like, there's a lot involved. And I think sometimes we could think forgiveness doesn't require work and that's why we don't do it. Or if we do it, we do it very in a shallow way, whereas I let him go. But you haven't Grieved. So I don't know how deeply the forgiveness is. Because you're numb. You understand what I'm saying? So I guess in your book you also talk about the process of forgiveness. What is that process? Take us through the steps.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Can I see the book? There you go. You wrote it.

[C]

It's like. Yeah, I think towards the end. It's towards the end. I appreciate it. Forgiveness is a spiritual.

[A]

There it is. There you go. She got graphs in here. Visual helps.

[C]

Yeah, I think so. You can't forgive something that you're not willing to honestly acknowledge. So you have to honestly acknowledge.

[B]

Come on now.

[C]

You have to say how. How it felt. You need to allow your feelings to feel what they feel and not sugarcoat it. You can let. You can let the spirit, you know, sanctify it a little bit late later. But I think the first step is to. To honestly acknowledge what happened and to not down. Downplay it in any. Any kind of way. And then after that, that. After you just kind of put it all out there before the Lord and maybe a good counselor, you know, and some trusted friends, then like, then invite the Lord to search your heart. So I. I think not. I think we've been reading Psalm 139, Rome. We've been reading it as this treatise that has all these beautiful things to say about us. But Psalm 139 is actually in precatory Psalm, which is a justice psalm. And what we find is that David is actually in some sort of conflict. And so right after he says, I'm fearfully and wonderfully made, then he's like inviting the Lord to search his heart, right? And right before that, he says some. What feels like really weird stuff about evildoers and how he's angry. And he's like, lord, am I not with you? You know, and so when he says that, he's like inviting the one who knows him, him the best, who knows him better than he knows himself, to inspect his heart, to see if there's any grievous way in him, if he's seeing his offender or this offense in a. In an ill way. And. And then to lead him in the way of everlasting. And so that's kind of the heart of like, okay, so you're mad about all these things. But now how do you invite the Lord to search your heart and to test and know, like, your anxious thoughts and your grievous ways? Because the truth is, is. Is that sometimes we are offended because people aren't worshiping our idols. Sometimes we are offended because we have unrealistic expectations. And so you're mad at them because they impeded on your day, but that's because you have an idol to work, right? You're mad at them because when they showed up, they weren't as fast fun as they usually are. And it's because you have an idol of entertainment. And so, and then sometimes we make idols of people, right? And so they're not showing up for us in all the ways that we want them to. And they can't because they're a human. So maybe three days out of the week they can do it and then the other days they can't. But when they're not able to perform the way that you want them to perform, then there's conflict, right? And so that's, that's in James, he's like, why is there quarreling, you know, among you? Is it not because of the passions and the desires that, that rage at war within? And so sometimes we're offended because yes, someone sinned against us, but sometimes we're offended because of what's going on in our own hearts. And then sometimes it's a little bit of both, you know, and so we want to invite God to search our hearts so that we can see that person and we can see that situation clearly and then we can discern, okay, what is the actual thing that I need to forgive them of, right? And it may be that no, they didn't sin against me, they're just having a bad day and they couldn't show up for me in a way that I wanted them to. And what I don't need to do is have a hard conversation with them. What I need to do is extend to them grace. What I need to do is not be so self centered, right? And to think about my own well being and to think through man, how can I serve, Serve them. And so you invite the Lord to search your heart. Then you make the disciples decisive decision to commit.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

You commit to forgiving them. Notice that the only person we really talk, we've talked to so far is God.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

And so you, you make that decision to forgive them before, before God. And so decision or forgiveness is the merciful decision to release an offender of their debt and to not retaliate against them in anger. So you make that decision, decision to, to do that. And I, I suggest that you do it before you go and talk to them. Because we still want to humbly confront. Right, we still, okay, we want to turn the other cheek we still need to have a conversation about the thing that. That happened. So we humbly confront them. But we don't go into it expecting an apology. We don't go into it expecting a certain kind of response. We take that step as a step of obedience, not just to restore the relationship, but to restore the person. Person back to God. Because if they sinned against you, that also means they sinned against God. And we need to be not just concerned about them apologizing to us, but realigning themselves with. With the Lord. And then after that, we. We consider if reconciliation is possible. Reconciliation will not always be possible. Yes. And so reconciliation does not equal forgiveness. John 18. God. Jesus lays out, like, just a literal flowchart of how that's supposed to work. So he says, if your brother or sister sins against you, go and tell them their fault. If they listen, you've won Matthew 18.

[A]

Or John.

[C]

Matthew 18.

[A]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[C]

Yep. You've won your brother or sister back. If they don't listen. Praise some folks, go get some mediators, some witnesses. If they don't listen to the witnesses, then go and get the church. We don't usually go through those steps. I think we need to return to those steps. Um, but the word listen there in. In their culture means if they rip. If they list, like, if they confess their sins and if they repent. So if they agree with you that what they did was wrong.

[A]

Not just heard you.

[C]

Not just heard. Not just heard you, but agreed with you, and then they.

[B]

This is ministry.

[A]

I'm trying to tell you.

[B]

I'm sitting here thinking, like, this is. This is some good ministry.

[A]

I have several people in my mind. Like, I'm like, she is teaching me what to do.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

That's why I ain't saying a word.

[B]

This is some ministry.

[A]

I ain't said a thing.

[B]

Y' all better, man. I'm sorry to cut you off.

[A]

You are counseling us.

[C]

So. And then. And then. And if they repent, right? So there's confession and then there's repentance. Those two words are not the same thing. Like, some people, myself included, really good at confessing, right? I out, man. I'm really sorry I did that. My bad tears, you know?

[A]

Right.

[C]

But then repentance is a change of behavior. So is their confession met with a change of behavior? Savior. Now, repentance is. It's a process, you know, so they're not going to change overnight. But are they taking steps in the right direction? Are they talking less when they used to talk more? Are they Telling the truth? Are they being more open? Are they being more vulnerable? Are they not doing the thing that they said that they wouldn't do anymore? Like, you want to pay attention to those things, and then as they do that, then you begin to restore trust. And so forgiveness also doesn't equal trusting someone. Someone fully again, no, they sinned against you. It's not actually wise for you to continue to trust them in. In that way. And so you need to restructure the relationship. And I would say that depending on how much trust can be restored in the relationship, depends on how much the two of you can be back reconciled.

[B]

I love what you said, though. You said a lot. But one of the things that stuck out. No, seriously, all of it is good. But one of the things that stuck out to me is in the back, beginning of when you were talking about how we. Like, I think what you're essentially saying, when we properly go to God and allow him to search our hearts, we kind of get a clarity of, you know, of our own hearts so that we can go to the person with the offense properly. Not so skewed with our own offense. Not so. Like. Like. Cause sometimes we can go to people and we're so offended that we're going. We go to people in a wrong way, and it just makes reconciliation so hard. But, like, asking the Lord, like, because I've done that, like, people have not met my idols, and that's why I was offended. And so when I spend proper time with the Lord, it's like, Lord, it's like, no, you just. You just idolize time with people, and that's not their fault. You need to repent and need to say, like, Preston, like, why are you not spending time with the Lord? Like, why are you not allowing the Lord to fill that space? And so that was really convicting to me. And I think that if we search our hearts in that way, you know. Yeah. I have a question, though.

[A]

Yes, sir.

[B]

Because. So when you talked about Judas earlier and Jesus's forgiveness for Judas, he did. He did. He did forgive Judas, but he didn't. He didn't grant Judas the same access that he did.

[A]

John, did he forgive him?

[B]

Well, not forgive him. Well, he. Well, he offered him, you know what I'm saying, The morsel of bread he offered him.

[A]

Like, you know, he is on a perdition.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not. Not forgiveness in that way, but he walked. Walked in love, like, you know what I'm saying, with Judas, but he didn't offer Judas the same access as a John the disciple that the Bible says that he loved. And I think a lot of times when we have to walk in forgiveness or walk in love with people who offended us, sometimes it can be hard to kind of gauge what type of access we owe them. Or it's kind of hard to gauge like, am I not forgiving them? Because do I need to, like, what is the balance in that?

[A]

And can I add to that? Because that was going to actually be my question. Because I think sometimes it can seem as if to have evidence of forgiveness, you have to move super, like open handed, you know what I'm saying? Where you feel like, do I gotta text them back to be forgiving? You understand? Yeah.

[B]

Because I think you, you owe people love. You don't necessarily owe them access in the same way Jesus had access with some of the other disciples. And so sometimes that's like, that's a balance that we have to, you know.

[A]

Because to me this is, this is. So let me try to summarize it succinctly. So people are like, what are y' all saying? I think this is how to think through forgiveness and reconciliation. While at the same time, sometimes the way you are trying to practice forgiveness can be confusing to your own emotions. Yes. Where it's like, I don't know if I've actually forgiven them because of the way I'm attempting to reconcile. Is there, is that a basic summer?

[B]

And then I will want to add to that.

[C]

Yes, add on, brother.

[B]

I want to add on to that.

[A]

Do your head again.

[B]

I want to add on to that.

[C]

That was great.

[A]

It was perfect. Because he. Thinking about people.

[B]

Yeah. What are the boundaries that we should set in place for our own spiritual health, emotional health. Because some people just don't deserve the access or you gonna live offended by them or wounded by them or hurt by them. And I think that God being a father, he cares about our emotional. And so what's the balance in all that?

[A]

That was a lot, but sorry.

[C]

No, so it's good. I'm glad we went back there because it takes us back to Matthew 18 and I forgot to tell this, say this part. It says like if they, if your brother or sister who you've already gone to, you take them to the mentors or the, the mediators, you've taken them to the church. If they still don't listen, he says, treat them like a gentile or a tax collector.

[B]

Come on now, get out of here.

[C]

Text the, the culture, the, the context there is for Gentile is that you treat them. You don't Treat them like a brother and sister in Christ anymore, right? So we're not doing Acts 2:42 anymore. You know, like, we're not sharing all things in common. We're maybe not breaking bread every day in the house together. Like, the, the relationship is different, right? So I'm not leaning on you in the same ways, and I'm doing that in obedience to Christ, right? And then he. He says, or treat them like a tax collector in that culture, they would say, like, a tax collector was like a, a bear. And when you see them coming, you need to run because they were abusive. And so Jesus is like, no, if someone sins against you and they do not listen, like, continue to, like, treat them like a gentile or a tax collector. And so I think what the principle there is, that there are times when we need to restructure the relationship because trust has been. Been broken. And there, There are even times where we need to end the relationship and maybe we don't end it, like, where we never talk to them again. But it's like, I just see you at church on Sunday, or I see you at the cookout, or I see you, you know, at the family event. There's a, There's a hand in the room, and so, and things like that. But I do think. And then what I love after that is that Jesus says, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven. And it's, it's. It's as if Jesus is saying, whatever. When you follow this process, whatever you and the, The. The community, the, the. The church come to whatever conclusion you all reach, like, I'm with you in that. And for me, that has helped me so much because I deal with that guilt of, like, I forgive, I, I think I forgave them, but, like, I'm still not, like, in relationship with them in the way that we were before. And so I feel this guilt about it. But then I feel this peace when I go back the.

[A]

To.

[C]

To that text, because I know that I didn't make that decision by myself. I made that decision under the counsel of my pastor. I made that decision under the counselor counsel of, like, our friend group or under the counsel of a counselor. Like, I didn't make that decision by myself. And so I had other people speaking into whether or not it was healthy for me to continue to move forward with that person. So that is the part that helps me with that guilt. But I do think when we're still trying to figure out whether or not we can trust this person. Like, we're kind of just practicing. Right. And if the person continues to show that they are unsafe, then. Then we should. We should retreat some. I think what's hard though, particularly for the offender in that, is that they are like, but you said you forgave me.

[A]

But.

[C]

And it's like, yeah, I did forgive you, but that didn't hit the reset button on the relationship. You know, they didn't cause me to forg forget everything that happened. And so for me, I am learning in real time, like, what I need to say is like, hey, this is what it means for me to get forgive you. So then that's clarifying how much access you have to me.

[B]

But I also think it's a lot of wisdom in that when God giving us those instructions. Because I think for the person who's not getting the hint, you. You're not forgiving me, it's probably because your behavior hasn't changed.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think one of the reasons why God tells us that excommunication and stuff like. Like that is necessary so that people can actually really come to repentance. Because it's like, it's a difference between you not forgiving and you're not being able to walk in harmony because a person's behavior hasn't changed. And so I think us doing that actually helps people behavior change. Like, it puts a mirror to them, which I think is necessary sometimes.

[C]

I'm glad you said that because that is the goal.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like it's that they would repent.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

[A]

I have two questions. Okay. This is why I rose my hand is ghosting sinful.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Why?

[C]

Well, because we are people created in God's image who are worthy of dignity and respect. And when we ghost people, meaning we just leave a friendship or relationship without communicating to them them that we're leaving. Maybe even why we're leaving. We aren't loving them. Well, we aren't treating them as someone who is worthy of dignity, honor, and respect.

[A]

Yeah, I forgot my second question.

[B]

Why did you ask that question, babe?

[A]

Because when she was talking about just that process of reconciliation and boundaries and all, I thought about how I think this is a thing for me and it's common for me to not want to do all of that. It's just. Bye. I think that. And I've learned that from how I was raised and the way offense was modeled to me in St. Louis. Is somebody. Do you bogus. It's over with. It ain't no conversation.

[B]

It's not the deuces.

[A]

It ain't no conversation. And it's a lot of. Of that. That's still in me. And some of. Some of it is I'm too hurt to even. Because to even have the conversation, you have to even confess weakness. You have to be vulnerable. You have to even admit that you hurt me. Makes me feel weak. So it's easier for me to ghost you because that feels strong when it's actually not. It shows how emotionally immature you actually are. You know what I'm saying? And spiritually. And so I just wanted to ask the question because I think it's common, especially in friend groups, for people to just completely just leave with no conversation, no Att that reconciliation. No, because some. Some. I think some relationships are worthy of that work because you. I think a lot of. I think a lot of friendships could persevere past these things if we're willing to do the work. I think some marriages could be healthier if we were willing to do the work. But I think when we give up, we potentially give up the joys that could come on the other side of these kinds of things.

[B]

And I also think that, you know. Cause if I'm telling them myself, go ahead. It can also be a form of, yeah, I'm hurt and all the things, but this is also us trying to kind of like insert our own sense of justice. Like, not talking to that person is like, I want to punish that person instead of allowing God to bring justice for me.

[A]

Yeah. The silent treatment can be vengeance.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

I don't gotta put a sticker in your tank to be vengeful. But what I can say is, oh, this is a consequence. You don't get me anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, man, we some jacked up people saying we're creative.

[C]

Very, very creative. Yeah.

[A]

Can you give us. In closing, I guess, just recast the vision, a gospel vision of why we must forgive.

[C]

Man. I believe that every time we forgive someone, we proclaim the gospel. We put the gospel on display. We put the mercy of Christ, the compassion of Christ on. On display. And that when we forgive someone who's offended us, that my. I think what could happen is that it makes them think, wow, if Preston could forgive me, then maybe God can. You know, if Jackie could forgive me, then maybe God could. Could forgive me. And I think one of the things that we have to be aware of is that we live in a story that is much bigger than ours and that the story that God is writing is moving in the direction of redemption. And when we forgive, we put that story on display for people and invite them to be a part of it. And so that, that is the, the, probably the most compelling thing for me when it comes to forgiveness is that man, every time, time I forgive someone, I glorify Christ. I, I, I lift him high in someone else's eyes.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. Well, thank you for this book. Thank you for all the work that you did, the study, the sanctification, the.

[B]

Confession, the enduring, the spiritual warfare, all the stuff. Cuz all of it is a labor of love.

[A]

I truly believe, believe if we get this stuff in our system, the church will be a better church. Friendships would be better. Relationships would be better. Families will be like. To me, this isn't, this isn't minor. This is actually very significant. So this a fly. I forgive them. No, I appreciate you.

[C]

Yeah, I appreciate y'.

[A]

All.

[C]

Thank y' all for having me.

[A]

No problem. All right, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Bye. With the Paris is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.