When the Leaders We Love Fail Us

Summary

With The Perrys: "When the Leaders We Love Fail Us" (June 29, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Preston Perry and Jackie Hill Perry sit down with guest Lisa Fields (founder of the Jude 3 Project) to explore the theme of what happens when beloved leaders fail—morally, spiritually, or otherwise. The conversation dives into personal experiences, theology, and practical insights for navigating disappointment, disillusionment, and the path to restoration—both for leaders and their followers.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Understanding the Pain of Fallen Leaders

• Personal Stories of Disillusionment
  • Lisa Fields shares her journey of admiring a Christian leader (pseudonym "Bruce"), being mentored by him, and then navigating the shock and confusion when his misconduct came to light (07:01–10:55).
  • Jackie and Preston discuss their own feelings of guilt and disappointment after recommending fallen leaders' ministries to others.
  • Notable Quote (Lisa): “‘Make sure your public and private life match’—so when the scandal broke out, I was like, bro. What? Huh?” (10:48)

2. The Halo and Horn Effect & Idolizing Leaders

• Hero Worship and Its Dangers
  • Lisa introduces the concepts of the "halo and horn effect," explaining how we often view admired leaders as either all good or all bad, when in reality, people are complicated and can exhibit both good and bad at once (12:48–13:44).
  • Notable Quote: “Our heroes reveal more about us than they do about our actual heroes.” (16:57)
  • The conversation emphasizes the importance of not deifying or demonizing leaders, but instead recognizing their full humanity.

3. When Admiration Turns to Projection

• Examining Our Attachment to Leaders
  • The group discusses how personal needs, past traumas, or unmet familial relationships can influence the way we latch onto leaders, sometimes creating a parental or savior figure out of them (18:45).
  • Preston points out how disappointment in leaders often reflects our own desires or wounds rather than just the leader's failure.

4. Recognizing Warning Signs & Accountability

• Spotting Unhealthy Leadership Environments

  • Lisa lists practical signs to watch for: lack of real friendships, being surrounded only by employees, absence of the leader’s spouse or family, and avoidance of honest relationships (24:15–26:17).
  • Jackie shares a story about noticing problems in church leadership simply because a pastor’s wife was no longer present (26:42).

• Why Proximity Matters in Accountability

  • Only people close to leaders are able to hold them accountable. The challenge is that sometimes those closest are financially or emotionally invested, making true accountability rare (28:14).

5. The Emotional and Spiritual Fallout

• The Loss of Hope and the Call to Finish Well
  • Lisa talks candidly about how fallen leaders can create a crisis of faith in others, causing fear and doubt about their own ability to remain faithful and finish well (30:36–32:07)—“The enemy will wait till you're at your last leg to take you out.”
  • Preston and Jackie remind listeners that, biblically, many heroes also failed, but keeping eyes on Christ is the ultimate hope (33:55).

6. Healthy Restoration and Loving Leaders Well

• What Real Restoration Looks Like

  • Restoration isn’t about putting someone back on the platform, but about personal reconciliation—restoring family relationships, righting wrongs, and reconnecting with God (47:08–48:28).
  • “You can be restored to a path and not a position and still be restored.” (43:08)
  • There’s a warning against restoring leaders to ministry too quickly, as true repentance requires time, humility, and support beyond getting back to public ministry.

• Loving Leaders Under Pressure

  • The hosts recognize public ministry's unique pressures and discuss the importance of supporting leaders—not just consuming their ministry but caring for their well-being. Being honest about struggles (not just sharing others’ stories) and making room for breaks and sabbaticals is crucial (39:00–40:33).

7. Community, Honesty & the Role of Therapy

• Recovering Hope and Guarding the Heart
  • Lisa shares how therapy, honesty in community, and true honesty with God have been key in processing disillusionment and maintaining hope (42:53).
  • Unprocessed pain can cause victims to become villains if bitterness is allowed to take root (45:54).
  • “When bitterness takes root in your heart, truth gets distorted in your mind.” (54:15)

8. Learning from Good Leaders

• Honoring Faithful Examples
  • Lisa honors her parents as her “first heroes,” for modeling humility, accountability, love, and perseverance in ministry (59:50–61:59).
  • Jackie and Lisa encourage listeners to look for and appreciate unsung, faithful leaders in their local churches—often overlooked in favor of public figures.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Projection: “When leaders fall and you’re drawn to making sure the leader is ok, but you ignore the victim, it could mean you’re struggling with your own secret sin... You don’t hold them accountable because you don’t hold yourself accountable.” (49:03)
• On Real Restoration: “If a person is… Their goal is to get back to a platform, usually they have demonstrated just in my experience, they are usually not repentant. The rush is to get back to where they were.” (48:48)
• On Finishing Well: “It only counts if you finish.” – Lisa’s mom (32:17; 60:34)
• On Idolatry of Ministry: “It’s usually the kindness of God to remove the ministry to show you your idolatry to it.” (52:26)
• On Direction & Bitterness: “When hatred takes root in your heart, you lose direction.” (54:56)
• On The Need for Transparency: “Hypocrisy is not the presence of sin. It's the absence of honesty.” (39:00)
• On Faithful Leadership: “What they demanded from the church, they always demonstrated.” (60:31)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lisa Fields’ personal story of hero disappointment: 07:01–10:55
• Halo and horn effect explained: 12:48–13:44
• Practical signs of unhealthy leadership: 24:15–26:17
• Accountability and proximity issues: 28:14–29:50
• Emotional fallout and spiritual questions: 30:36–33:55
• Supporting & restoring fallen leaders: 39:00–48:28
• Therapy & recovering hope: 42:53–45:54
• Bitterness and spiritual direction: 54:56–55:26
• Learning from faithful, lesser-known leaders: 59:50–61:59

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Actionable Takeaways

• Interrogate your admiration: Ask tough questions about why someone became your hero.
• Pray for leaders, not just follow them: Their humanity needs intercession more than admiration.
• Support, but don’t idolize: Healthy admiration means room for honesty, accountability, and supporting boundaries.
• Restoration > reputation: Prioritize restoration of soul and relationships over return to public platform.
• Value local faithfulness: Seek wisdom from consistent, humble, in-person mentors, not just platformed leaders.

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Tone Highlights

• Warm, honest, and deeply personal
• Direct, with moments of humor and self-awareness
• Serious about faith, deeply empathetic, and practical in application

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Resources Mentioned

• Book: When Heroes Fall by Lisa Victoria Fields
• Scripture Reference: Galatians 6:1 (“Restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.”)

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This episode offers a nuanced, grace-filled approach to disappointment in Christian leadership, reminding listeners to look for Christ—not just charismatic figures—and to finish well, in both faithfulness and love.

Transcript

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[B]

Hi saints and Angs, how are you? Hope you're blessed. Hope you're all right. Hope you're insane. Hope you walked your dog. Hope you fed your kids.

[A]

What it is, folk.

[B]

Hope you wore sunscreen.

[A]

What it is? Shouting.

[B]

You know, I just have.

[A]

That's how people talk in the hood in Atlanta when I be going, what up? Shouting.

[B]

I just got to bring what up, twin?

[C]

Good.

[B]

I know your ADHD wants you to say something else.

[A]

ATL boy, I crack your head. Shouta. For real. Shouta. Don't play with me. Sh.

[B]

I is you having your feet tucked to the couch while you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Cozy.

[B]

I just gotta break a real, real, real, real quick, real quick. And then we gonna get to our conversation.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

This documentary.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Called Maternal instinct.

[A]

God. What we was at yesterday, you just brought this documentary.

[B]

We was at medieval times.

[A]

We was middle evil times with our kids. We in the line getting drinks for our kids. And Jackie, like, let me tell you about this documentary.

[B]

I can't. I can't get over it. And I have watched the, the most vile documentaries. Btk, Dahmer, all, All the people, Iceman, all the people. Crash. All the people. This is of a diabolical nature. It ain't take the cake, but it, it just, I think it was just such a particular kind of evil. Okay, here's, here's the summary. A lady, a girl gets with a pig seller, falls in love with the pig hog. Salesman, okay, falls in love with the hog, says salesman, falls a little fast, moves in with him, tells them that she has inheritance. They start buying trucks, start buying cars. When cars get repos, nobody asks any questions. All of a sudden, a couple months in, she says she's pregnant. Everybody's excited about the pregnancy even though her stomach is still flat. People are confused, don't know what's going on. Somehow, some way, they connect to her old best friend. Old best friend says, well, she can't be pregnant because she doesn't have a uterus.

[A]

He lost attraction for her, too.

[B]

You told me that such that don't matter. She don't have a uterus. So she's going on Amazon and buying plastic bellies. According to the month that she's supposed to be. Somehow they reach month 10. She is 14, 15 days past her due date, which I just. I don't know why nobody's concerned about that. Whole family feels like something is wrong. They know that she's a liar. They know she's not telling the truth. They know that something is going on. So she decides to come up with a plan. Have you watched this show?

[C]

No, but it sounds fascinating.

[B]

Okay, Lisa Fields, welcome to the show.

[A]

She.

[B]

She comes up with a plan, goes on at Google and starts researching how to do C sections. She has a friend named Reagan. Reagan is 36 weeks pregnant. She goes over Reagan's house, kills Reagan, gets a scalpel, removes Reagan's uterus, takes the baby out of Reagan's body, gets in the car. On the way, I guess to the house, she's driving so erratic, the police pull her over. When they pull her over, she has the baby on her lap and the placenta in her pants. And she's saying that she delivered the baby while she was driving. How we know she didn't deliver the baby? She don't got a uterus. One, two. Her pajama pants are still on. Ain't no blood, ain't no nastiness, ain't no craziness. They took her to the hospital. The doctor looks at her. He said, did no baby come out of there?

[A]

That's so demonic.

[C]

That's the whole story.

[B]

Do you understand what I'm saying? I have not been able to shake it because I'm like, do you know how out of your mind you have to be to kill a person and take their baby out of their body?

[A]

Yeah. She had a legion of demons for

[B]

a man that sells pigs. Hello. Hi. Lisa Fields. How are you? I'm good. Welcome to our best.

[C]

That's a lot to take in.

[B]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You know, a hero probably failed her at one point in her life.

[A]

And granted, we're talking about when heroes fall. You know, maybe she was somebody hero.

[B]

No, I think a hero failed her because they raised a Psychopath. She's a psychopath. Somebody's to blame.

[A]

Yeah. Like I said, she probably had a legion anyway.

[B]

Sure. It's the way I want to keep talking about it. How you doing, Lisa? How you doing? I'm good.

[C]

How are you?

[B]

I'm all right. Your outfit is so calming. Cause last time Lisa was on, she was bright. She was a shining star. But today, you're demure today. How you been? Don't you live where you live at?

[C]

I live right outside of D.C. and Alexandria.

[B]

I passed through there. I said, this is. Cause you told me that at the conference. I said, this is a nice area. But I also felt like, you got some money.

[C]

You know, I don't. You know, God has.

[A]

You know, I got some money.

[B]

It just gave this.

[C]

Rent is high. It is high in D.C. okay.

[A]

She's trying to get home. Glory to God. You know, he's the head of my life. At least he got some coins.

[B]

He raised on the just and the unjust.

[A]

Let me hold $5.

[B]

We are here to talk to Lisa about when your leaders fall sin be are revealed to be something other than you thought, which I think is actually extremely common. I think even when you have conversations about church hurt, that usually is involved in some people's story where it's just like, yeah, my pastor was somebody I didn't think he. My mentor was somebody I didn't think they were. And so I guess I don't even. I don't wanna say, why did you write the book? I just. I hate that question. And so I think every podcaster removed that question from your lexicon.

[A]

So why did you write this book? Cause the Lord told me to.

[B]

I don't know. It's. Just. Read it. I think I more so wanna know what happened. I just. We are just here on this couch and. Tell us what happened to you.

[C]

Yeah. So as I shared in our last episode that we talked about my journ on struggling with faith in undergrad and my father introducing me to the ministry of my hero. I don't name him in the book. I call him Bruce.

[B]

Bruce Roos. Not Bruce. Bruce the comedian.

[C]

And him helping me from afar. And so growing up in ministry, admiring him, reading his books, listening to his podcast, watching his videos, thinking, man, one day I want to meet him. And I finally got a chance to meet him years later. And I remember our first meeting was so disappointing.

[B]

Why?

[C]

Because he came up to me and started just immediately. It was like, lisa does Christianity to the black community. And he was like, oh, man, that's really Good. We really gotta say to people in the inner city. And it really went to.

[B]

That's where the black people are, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah. That happened to me at Lexandria.

[C]

It's like, oh, okay. And so that was so disappointing because I was like, I didn't think that was gonna be the first words to come out of your mouth. And I was like, oh. And at the time, I had been in a lot of white evangelical spaces where they had stereotyped me, and I was already frustrated. So that was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back.

[B]

And how old are you at this time?

[C]

I'm in my mid-20s.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

No, hold on. I'm in my 30s. I'm sorry.

[B]

Really? Yeah. Okay.

[C]

I'm in my 30s. Cause I'm 39 now.

[A]

Look at you, girl.

[B]

He's 39, too. He know y' all both about to be 40. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Keep talking.

[C]

And so I was like, you know, I don't want nothing to do with this, dude. Just.

[B]

I was.

[C]

I think I had an overreaction anyway in that moment. And so some months later, they was like, hey, we want you to come back to this event. And I was like, I don't really wanna come back. I gotta drive all the way from Jacksonville to Georgia. I don't really wanna come back. And so I come back, and then he sees me. He was like, let's do lunch. And I was like, mm, mm. You're not the person I really wanna talk to right now.

[B]

For sure. I don't.

[C]

And so he says. He's like, you know, tell me what, you know, how your experience has been. And I was just really frank. So I was like, this is what's my issue with white evangelicalism and apologetics? And I'm just going in. And he received all of it?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And he was like, you know what? What books do I need to read? And I appreciated his humility.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because I'm. I'm nobody compared to him in my mind. And I appreciated that he could receive my frankness.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[C]

And he listened. He received the books, I told him to read, and we built a relationship. Later on, his ministry would come alongside Jude 3 support me financially by paying half my salary for a few years, pay for some Our HBCU stops. And they didn't want any public credit. And so just built. Imagine you admire somebody, then you get connected to them, and then they help you doing the ministry and come alongside you and affirm you, and then say, I'mma Quote you in my next book. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. When the book comes out, I see my name in it. I'm like, oh, wow. So I'm like, all this admiration, disappointment, then greater admiration because of the humility that was demonstrated. Then a scandal breaks out. And I distinctly remember when I asked him what is something he wanted me to remember in ministry, he said to me, make sure your public and private life match. So when the scandal broke out, I was like, bro. What? Huh?

[B]

Said that to me. Yeah.

[C]

So that kind of wrestling through that was the genesis of how the book came together.

[B]

They asked me to read y' all a segment of a poem. So I'mma read it like how I used to do poetry, yet sitting on the couch.

[A]

Go ahead. I'm excited for this.

[B]

I'm kidding. I'm just going to read it. Oh, man. It says, teach me again. The stillness from which movement finds its meaning. The stillness from which movement is beauty. The stillness that rouses the slumbering imagination. That's from Be Still, a poem written in After Amen, the new book from pastor and author Tyler Staten. After Amen was written out of a deeply personal season. After Tyler was diagnosed with advanced stage cancer. In that wilderness, he leaned into prayer, solitude, scripture, and eventually poetry as a way to process honestly with God. The book includes 50 devotional entries that blend scripture, reflection and original poetry, all centered around the seven signs in the Gospel of John. At its core, After Amen looks at what happens after we pray, how God continues to form us, deepen our attention, and teach us to notice his presence. And it's available now wherever books are sold.

[A]

As a poet, I love the fact that he's communicating his pains through poetry because we see a lot of the scripture does so After Amen by Tyler Stayton. Available wherever books are sold.

[B]

I think sometimes we have a tendency to compartmentalize character, where it's like you can think you can be super sinful here and that's not somehow staining everything else. And so even with you talking about his humility, was it humility like, or like, was that just him being really genuine? Or now looking back, are there. Do you see potential yellow flags even in how he was, like, how he was partnering with you from the jump? Does it make sense what I'm saying?

[C]

Yeah. So I talk about in the book how we tend as humans to be black and white thinkers. Psychologists say it's the hero and halo effect. I mean, halo and horn effect. And so in the halo effect, when you meet somebody and you have A positive encounter with them. Maybe their ministry has blessed you. You've been encouraged by them. They're nice to you. You assume that they're good in every area. But if you meet them and they disappoint you, you assume they're bad in every area. So I'm trying to get people in this tension, that people can be both good and bad at the same time. And so that' the part of the healing is to see people in the complexity of their humanity, that he can demonstrate humility in one area and be a horrible person in another. Because sometimes people are. Have success in the area, in a character area, but they have a dark side.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so living in the tension. I talk about still loving your hero. I use the example of what's the drug dealer in? He was.

[A]

Why you gotta look at me. I'm so tired of being stereotyped in this podcast.

[C]

Gangster. The real Gangster New York, that was. They had the movie about Bobby Johnson. Denzel played him.

[A]

Oh, Frank Lucas.

[C]

Frank Lucas.

[B]

I said, gangsta boo. I don't know.

[C]

I opened up one of my chapters on still loving your fallen hero, talking about Frank Lewis daughter, Frank Lucas daughter. Because she didn't know as a child who her dad was. She didn't discover till later on who he was. And to her, he was a great father. She was like, my daddy told me he sold candy.

[A]

Yeah, he did.

[B]

Yeah, he did. It was blue.

[A]

He showed that booger sugar.

[C]

And she was like, he made me breakfast every morning. And she was like, then to read about him later as an adult and to see how much harm he did to a community. And she was like, no matter how much harm he did, I lament that. But I still love my daddy.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

Yeah, kind of. How do we move to healing, to live in this tension where you can love a victim and villain that God is calling in our healing journey not just to look out for the victims, but to also look out for the villains.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So the hero you're talking about, he was one of my heroes as well. Was able to chop him up with him. And I testified to what you talked about, how his humility. Cause I tell people when I met him, I wanted to ask him all the questions, but I left with two questions because he asked me all the questions, which was really deep. And I remember just having this wrestle. And this is going to go on into my question for you, of just feeling guilt because I put a lot of people who follow me onto his ministry. Right. And just having a lot of Guilt, like, because he failed and I put a lot of people on and. Because the way he failed or whatever, and feeling guilt, and I felt like the Lord, I prayed about it before I did this ig live. And I felt like the Lord was like, no, I used him to impact. Impact you. And I'm actually still using him in his failure to impact you. And I think in that I started to wrestle with that, it's like, no, like, you're still learning from him. You know, I'm using all of it. You know what I'm saying? And I started to just wrestle with how we can esteem people a little bit too high. And so when they fall, it can actually hurt way more. Like, what is a healthy way to. To view humans who.

[B]

Like, what's healthy admiration.

[A]

Yeah, what's healthy admiration? And what's like. Like, should we be as impacted when they fall? Because when we look at the men in the scriptures, I mean, like, even the men that we read about, like Moses had. Moses killed a guy. You know what I'm saying? Peter didn't deny Jesus. The disciples abandoned Christ after his crucifixion. I mean, they've experienced some pretty. You know, and so, like, what is some health? What is healthy admiration? What is it when we. When we. When we admire people a little bit too much?

[C]

Yeah. Our heroes reveal more about us than. Than our actual heroes. Because usually we're looking.

[A]

Say it again.

[C]

Our heroes reveal more about us than they do actual heroes. Because usually in our minds, we have a very transactional relationship with our heroes. That's why when they fall, we'd throw them away. So in the book, I talk about, like, you have to examine.

[A]

That was deep. You just said that like, you weren't deep.

[B]

No, Like, I started. I started, like, I started interrogating my heart like she.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That was actually really deep. You said it real normal, but it was deep. Okay, continue.

[C]

So it's in the book I talk about, let's interrogate. Why this person was your hero to begin with? What did you want from them? And so when I had to look at the honest assessment, I wanted Bruce to help me in my career. I wanted him to help me know how to build an organization like him, how to communicate like him, how to answer questions like him. And so I talk about, like, my admiration. I was thinking, how much did I really even pray for him?

[B]

Wow. Yeah.

[C]

Like, I had to interrogate my own heart. Like, was I interceding? Not that that would have prevented his scandal, but maybe that would have helped me see him in a more right posture. And so usually our heroes reveal what we want to become.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's why it's such a disappointment, because it's like you're supposed to represent who I could be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's more about you disappointed their failure is more about you than it is them. You're caring more about how it made you feel than you are actually, like, loving this person and yada, yada, yada.

[C]

Yeah, the disappointment comes. And sometimes we create heroes because of the fractures in our family dynamic. So I see this happening a lot with pastors. People come to the church and they want them to be a second father. So if the pastor disappoints you, it gets conflated with the past trauma you haven't dealt with. So you represent another man or another woman that's failed me, just like my mother and father. And so all of that comes into play when they disappoint you.

[A]

Yeah. I want to flip that, though, and talk about it from another perspective, because that made me just think of something. Because I think a lot of times when we have heroes, because we're not praying for them and we're not viewing them like we view other people, because we don't look up to other people like we look up to them sometimes, we probably can let them get away with things, get away with living a life, get away with just signs. Like, they probably show you signs. Like even the person that we're talking about. It's like a lot of people say, I ain't really seen them be like, go to church. You know what I mean? Like, just. I don't see this person, like, loving. Actively loving his wife, but because he's so big or this person is so big in the public eye. And so, like, is there, like, are there. Are there healthy signs for us to check in our heart, like, of letting people get away with things, Things that we kind of gloss over, that we can actually pray for them more. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think in my experience, because I've thought a lot about that when it comes to some significant leadership betrayals that I've experienced. And I thought about how there were things I saw, but I excused and I asked why, like, why did I excuse it? And I think some of the excus was fear. I think I was afraid to really go there with what I was seeing. You know what I'm saying? Because if I go there, then this person's a liar. If I go there, this person is. Might be like, their heart might be like, I rather not go There, because that means everything crumbles. And so I, I, I think some of the resistance to reconciling what you're discerning and what you're seeing versus what you want them to be is just. It's disorienting. I think it's the best way to. It really is a disorienting question.

[A]

Dobet question. Do bae. With the fear, though. Was the fear you having a fear that you wouldn't look up to the person anymore once you found out what was true? Or was it just hurt and pain that you didn't want to experience? Like, what was the fear? What was motivating the fear?

[B]

I think one is if this person if what I'm starting to see, because when you start praying for real, for real, the Lord really does unveil stuff. And so I think when you start to really see what needs to be seen, it starts to make you question the whole relationship. So it starts to feel as if, oh, I think this whole relationship has been a sham, which warrants a level of grief, because this relationship has been meaningful to me, but probably not meaningful to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it just. I think all of those feelings are. For me, it was a part of that process. But, sorry, I don't know what your question Talisa was.

[A]

Yeah, I think my question was on the flip side of that, like, are there healthy signs that we should look for? And also, like, should we approach how we treat our heroes? Like. Cause you talked about not praying for them. Like, our prayer can change things if we're praying for the right things, but if we're just looking at the success and not the signs, we won't be able to pray.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So even the way we. Yeah.

[B]

You know, find stuff for your kids to watch that actually coincides with what you believe and what you love and what you enjoy is kind of difficult. You know, the, the. The socials and the. The channels and networks are strange. They're odd. They're uncomfortable. Dare I say demonic sometimes. But we just want something that's fun for our kids to watch, something that points them back to the Lord. And that's where Menno comes in. Menno makes it simple for families to grow together. It's the number one destination for Christian kids content with shows that feed both their imagination and their understanding of the Lord. Favorites include Laugh and Grow, Bible, Young David, the Dead Sea Squirrels, God's Greenhouse, veggietales, and more. Every show or devotional is designed to fill their minds with what matters most. And now your mental membership Includes a brand new audio feature with 100 hours of Bible stories, faith filled adventures, kids podcasts, music and more just for kids. Perfect for bedtime, quiet time and busy families on the go with features, screen off listening, CarPlay and Android audio. And it's all ad free so no distractions, just fade filled content kids love with Menno kids don't just watch something good, they grow in it.

[A]

There's been times I put my kids in front of the TV and put a show on and then advertising pops up, an ad pops up that they don't need to see that it's not child appropriate. And so the fact that Menow has ad free content where our kids can watch godly shows without interruption of something sinful is a win for me.

[B]

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[C]

So I think it goes back to the halo. We have to make sure that we realize that people aren't perfect. And I think for me, I've thought that this person just had it all together. And even though I say people are not perfect, I think internally I just assumed. And so it's coming to the realization like this person is not perfect. Constantly telling yourself there are flaws in this person because that will help you be able to approach them if you know that they're human. Like we strip people of their humanity by either deifying them or demonizing them. And so knowing that this person is human, but also looking for basic things like do these people have relationships? Most people fall because they don't have good relationships. And so you could say, all right, is everybody around you a fan? Does everybody around you think what you do is awesome? Like that should tell you this person may not be in a good space. Is everybody around them somebody they employ? You know, because you could. Loyalty sometimes comes because there's a check connected to it. Is everybody around them? Yes. People, you know, you can kind of observe. And these are things that, you know, you can observe up close. But a lot of people that are listening and watching never get the proximity of their heroes to even make these kinds of assessments.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so the reason that they have such high esteem is because they haven't met them. Like people say, never meet your heroes. Cause they tend to disappoint.

[A]

I think that's why it's important for people that do have Proximity to these heroes to do what you just said, you know what I'm saying? To look at the. Like, don't look at how much they're being used in the world. But, like, another thing I'll add, pay attention to their relationship with their spouse.

[C]

Huge.

[A]

That's very big. Cause it's like if the man's wife is never praising him or not celebrating him and vice versa, like, the person that's closest to them is always going to kind of reveal something. And I know some people are more lovey dovey and more vocal about the love of their spouse, but I'm like, yo, like, that does say a lot. How a man loves his family should be an indication of how much he loves the body of Christ.

[B]

We went to a church one time, and I'm not telling this story for y' all to be judgy. Okay. I'm just saying I've had enough experiences that I knew that this was a clue. But I told Preston, I said, something is happening with the leadership. I said, something is off.

[A]

She be real.

[B]

He said, why something off? I said, the wife ain't been here in a year.

[A]

I didn't know that. I was like, really?

[B]

I peeped it. I said, she ain't been here. She ain't sick. Cause she's on Instagram. I said, something, Something is off in the leadership because if the wife is not coming, it's something going on where she don't want to sit up under your teacher. And what happened Was I lying?

[C]

It all falls down.

[B]

Yeah, I wasn't lying. So I think there is principle to. That's not to say a marriage has to be perfect, but there's something about the home life that reveals something about the character of the people that are participating.

[A]

Yeah. Because if we was bogus, we were very honest people. I'm not finna be all podcasty if you out here living a double of life. I'm like, nah, I can't do it. And I know you ain't going.

[B]

Yeah, you have to find a job. We got to do something else. Because ministry is. I'm disqualified.

[A]

Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I mean, speaking of this, how do you. How do you. Because I think there are many people who would also say, yeah, I know people ain't perfect. I know my heroes are human. And so they also don't hold them accountable. Like, how do you. How do you also hold them to the standard that they're held to?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

At the same.

[C]

I mean, only people with the challenge is only People with proximity can do it. And the challenge is often that people in churches, unfortunately will look at a leader living a double life and assess within themselves that they're helping, they feel more than they're hurting.

[B]

Explain, say more.

[C]

That means that they're like, oh, well, we have thousands of people come and get help and testimonies. We have two or three women that have been harmed and they weigh the good versus the bad in their mind. That's how they reconcile it. That's how they overlook it. Or their check is associated. This is why I talk about, like, are the people that surrounding you paid by you? Because that impacts whether they'll critique you. Because if they mess up your money, they mess up theirs. Right. So it's important to like assess. Like, do have I structured my life in a way that people can be honest with me? And do I even want that honesty? And when people fall, we gotta say, yo, I don't care how many people they help. God cares about the people that they harmed as well. Right. So they matter. Hebrews 13 talks about, I think gives us a brilliant way to handle when. When leaders fall. It says caring for those in prison. Right. We don't think about the people that are in prison are guilty people.

[A]

Well, a lot of them.

[C]

Well, yeah, a lot of. There are some people that are not guilty. And then caring for those who've been harmed as if it happened in your own body. So that's the tension that the gospel wants us to live in. I see the guilty that don't mean that if you need to go to prison for harming women, that you still don't go. We could go and we could pray for you while you in there. Yeah, yeah, that's a part restoration looks like. I don't give up on you while you're suffering the consequences of your actions. Sometimes you holding people accountable means I need to call the police.

[B]

Yeah, that's it. How did the scandal and all that came? Like, how did you finding out that Bruce was something other than what you thought? How did that land on you emotionally?

[C]

For me, it was very jolting particular because I felt like if he couldn't make it, could I? I saw success. I started to see success in ministry as a trap. Like, you get to a certain level and then it ensnares you. And I was like, you know what, God, I don't want that. If that's where we got it in, I'm. I'm out. Because I don't think that his whole ministry was a sham. The thing I Fear about ministry is not the struggle. It's the comfort. So my dad said something years ago while preaching. He said, you have to fight till you die because the enemy will wait till you're at your last leg to take you out. Because when you're younger, you're going through struggles, you're more dependent, you're like, you know. But what happens when you get comfortable and when you're in the last leg of your ministry, when the battle is not as intense, when you have all the resources you need and you're on that relaxing end? And what the enemy does, he pays attention. He studies us. So he'll study you in your 20s and say, okay, that's a root of bitterness they won't take care of. I note that. I won't bother it right now, but I'll watch you. Oh, that's. That's a little pet scene they got that. They kind of took. I watch. And he'll stack the deck.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And then when you're 60, he'll pull your card. And then all the little things, the small foxes that you didn't take care of will ruin you.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[C]

And so I'm not. Not that I'm not concerned now, you know, we fight the enemy. But I. Looking at Bruce life made me more concerned about the end than my now, because as my mom says, it only counts if you finish. And so she'll always tell me, you're doing well now, but this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon, so you gotta finish well. And so for me, it was like this crisis of, like, God, I wanna finish well. Like, what does this success mean if I cause all this chaos at the end? Like, the enemy wants to get you at. He wants to get you at your highest point to pull you down. And so just that's how it deeply impacted me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I think about that, too. That's very deep. Cause I think about that too. Like, I think, like, if we start to explore why the enemy wants to get us at the end, you would think, oh, we about to get out of here anyways. Why does the enemy even care? You know what I'm saying? And I think the enemy cares because I think the goal is to discredit all we've done. Because it's like, when he failed towards the end of his life, people was like, was it, like, was it true? You know, like, can I be a minister? Like that, if you know what I mean? Like, you know, and they start to doubt. And I think that's the enemy's goal is to make people doubt what God has done throughout the years. And I think that's the reason why it's important for us to finish well, because we've. Because how we finish well actually validates all of our ministry in a lot of ways. So that's powerful.

[B]

Can I say something real quick? I think something you also said, said that that's key is ultimately it also discouraged you. Yeah, Like, I. I think that's one of the consequences of effectiveness, is that how you move if you fail discourages other people from believing that winning, finishing, faithfulness is possible, you know, because it. It starts to beg the question, like, shoot it. They can't do it. You know what I'm saying? And so I've kept that in my mind a lot. When it comes to endurance, it's just like, yeah, if you tap out, a lot of people will.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? Like, that's been in my mind, like, you. You gotta keep. Cause you. You got a cloud of witnesses now, like. And so I just wanted to draw out that that's a part of the emotional toll that takes. Like, that it takes on people when their leaders fail is just the discouragement that comes with it. And I think that's where it's hard, but it's like doing the work of, again, shifting your attention back to Christ who did finish well, you know what I'm saying? Because in Hebrews, that's what it tells us to keep our eyes on Christ, the perfecter of our faith. He didn't fail. And so if we continue to remember that in him, we can finish, like, it's possible. I think that's a part of stirring our hope back up.

[A]

Yeah. And it's so many things I got in my head that I want to ask Lisa, because every time I ask Lisa questions, she always get really great answers. And so I'm, like, trying to pick and choose which one I want to do, because I just. I want to just talk about, like, you live in a public eye. You've done amazing work with you3Project. We live in a public eye. And I do think that when more eyes are on you, the pressure can be more. That doesn't mean that doesn't give us an excuse to sin. But I'm just saying, a lot of pressure. I've seen people even make excuses for, like, dark Martin Luther King, like, yo, he lived under extreme pressure. Let that man smoke a cigarette every now and then. Or, you know, even, like, justify some of the, you know, Cheating allegations or whatever. I do think though that, that when we live in the public eye, it's a lot of pressure because I thought about like sometimes I be wanting to slap people. I can't slap people. I literally can't slap people because I'm going to justify other people that you. They gonna start slapping people. I can't. No, I'm being real.

[B]

He's actually really serious.

[A]

No, seriously, I be wanting to slap all the spit out people. Mouth.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, when people come at you left online, it does make you want to.

[B]

No, he means physically.

[C]

No, I know, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

We just making sure you know, I ain't gonna tell all your business, but like within the last 12 months or so. You told somebody I slapped you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was, I'm a Christian. Guess, guess what? I was convicted. No.

[B]

When he told me, I said, so were you convicted? And he was like, I was like, two days later.

[A]

I was like a day later. It took a day, like a day and a half. But I was like, but it was, it scared me. Cause like he came at me wrong and I said it came the way that it came out of me. I didn't even think about it. And I wasn't even trying to be tough. I was just looked at. I was like, I'll slap you. Like, it wasn't. You know what I'm saying? And so like.

[B]

But then you thought about the podcast.

[A]

But then I thought about your family. Yeah, but even marriage. It's like, I can't be telling people to honor your wives. If I want to give up on my marriage or give up on my relationship, I can't do that. And so I do think that, like, I guess the question I have is, is there a way for the body of Christ to love leaders well, who are under pressure that other people are not, not, not under. Because I do think that a lot of times people can kind of fold under the pressure. Find a vice, find a sin that comforts them because of all the pressure. And so whether that's, I mean, taking healthy breaks, taking healthy sabbaticals. I was just talking to a couple pastors. They was like, I need three months. Like, so how can we help the body? How can we help people who are in leadership positions to finish? Well,

[C]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

Next.

[A]

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[B]

Let's go.

[C]

I think it's our understanding, like, hypocrisy. I always say hypocrisy is not the presence of sin. It's the absence of honesty. And so if I'm being honest about my struggles and my. And my shortcomings, then people have a deeper respect. People struggle with leaders who present like they have it all together and they're not sharing that tension. Like you just shared that tension. If nobody's sharing that tension. And I see you in this light of where you have it all together. One thing I notice as I go back and look at my hero's messages, he share other people's stories. He didn't always share his. I'll tell you something like, it was very riveting stories that connected, but they weren't his stories.

[A]

Yeah, we can't help what we don't know.

[C]

And so I can't intercede that you're having for a problem, you don't disclose and not saying you should disclose all you're struggling with to the world. But it was revealing to me to say, oh, you know what? I didn't know what from his sermons was hard for him outside of his original testimony. And so I think when we give people some, like, we show a little bit of what we're navigating and wrestling through, it brings a sobriety about our humanity to them.

[B]

That's great. That's good. Yeah.

[C]

That can point them back to Jesus.

[B]

I remember one thing. I think we've said this before, but Brian Dye, who married us and discipled us, one of the things that he really drilled into our mind is that when people came because we were a part of a house church and our platform isn't what wasn't what it is now, but it was something. And people would come and kind of just, you know, be a little weird and all this type of stuff, and he was like, the way you kill, that is you show up as you. He was like, so the more proximity they. They have to Jackie, they will see Jackie. They won't see the Jackie that they think they're gonna see. And so I think I've learned that a part of leadership, a part of kind of idolatry or ideal is literally they have to see your humanity. So that means that you have to give them access. Now, that don't mean you be unwise, but it means if you have to stay after and just chill with the people so they can see you crack jokes, then do that. But I think when people want to create a distance between themselves and other people, that's why they're surprised. Like, you're surprised that they still treat you like an ornament when you keep

[C]

acting like an ornament.

[B]

Like, you know, does that make sense? I'm making sense?

[A]

No, it makes a lot of sense. It makes a whole lot of sense. Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I think proximity.

[A]

And a little side note, I think sometimes just this might be a little off topic, but I do think that it can be a little tricky for the person who has a platform, because some people just don't have good intentions. So it makes it harder. Like, for example, when I started to take my discipler's advice and being more human or whatever, it was people who literally took advantage of that. So it was a guy who was like, wanted me to be transparent every other day. I'm like, you're not investigative in nobody else life in this church. Like, why you want me to be transparent? Like, why you want to know about Preston every single day of. And so. And so I just think that, like, just wisdom. Yeah, yeah, just wisdom. Just use wisdom. You know what I'm saying? But be human, but use wisdom.

[B]

How did you so in dealing with the emotional weight of what you were wrestling with, you got some people, when they go through that, they lose all hope. In Christian leadership, how did you regain a sense of hope and not despair? Cynicism, Bitterness? Like, what. What is that?

[C]

Yeah, so I was in therapy. So one is therapy. I see Dr. Stacy every two weeks. So therapy is one big thing. Honesty with community and honesty with God. I think, you know, there's so much. I talk to Christians all the time that aren't honest with God. They don't bear their soul to God. And I'm like, how do you get through? He already knows. It's the easiest person to tell what's happening because he already knows your heart. And so I think the basics of just being honest with getting professional help, if you think it's beyond the scope of your circle, having your circle know what's going on, how you're processing, processing it in prayer, processing it through the word. I think people get stuck because they don't create the time to process pain. Right. So it's not that the steps to processing pain are super difficult, but it has to be that you carve out the time. And I think that, you know, if I was to analyze my hero's life and look back just on things I've gleaned from people, the amount of margin he had in his schedule was non existent. Yeah, yeah, he had no margin. Always on the road, always preaching. And then I think at a certain point, I remember one of the last times I was at his offices and he got up and he was like, he had preached all day in this other country and somebody, he was, he was like, I just need a moment to eat. I just need a moment. And so he was. Took a moment to eat and he. Some guy walked by him and recognized him. And you know how when people recognize you but they don't want to say nothing at first. So then he kept walking by. He was like, this happens to me, happened to me so many times before. So I knew what was coming next. And they came up to him and say, are you Bruce? And he said something that stuck with me. He said, unfortunately, I am. And I realized looking back that I was trying to be somebody who didn't want to be themselves. Wow. And steep.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I can imagine the weight that ministry takes on you over time. And especially if you don't have margin when you have people around you when you trying to take a break to say no, if you don't show up at this, people won't get saved. And so you're always thinking about the mission and who you can impact. And you forget that if you don't, stuff starts happening that you don't have time to process the pain. And now the healing that you're preaching about, you can't actually demonstrate in your own personal life. Now you're becoming a person that causes harm because you haven't cultivated the time to heal from what hurts you. And that's how victims turn into villains over time.

[A]

That's so good.

[C]

Because they don't take time to process their pain.

[A]

That's so good. I think what every, what I hear you saying, I think what every, like especially people who look in the public eye and who a lot of people look to have to remember is that Jesus wants us more than he needs us. He wants, he wants us. And I think a lot of times we could do such Effective ministry. We kind of start having this idea that if I don't do it, people. And it's like, no God can raise up anybody. Like, you know, we're not that special. And so I think sometimes you can feel this fear to tell people no, or to feel this fear to say, I need to. I need to get away or I gotta stop preaching and I gotta let somebody else be the main pastor. Preaching pastor right now to focus on my heart and my family. Yeah. God doesn't need us. The Lord wants us. And just. Just remember that.

[C]

And I think that's important even when we think about people falling. Because if you think that God needs you to be in a certain position, you'll think your restoration process has to get you back in that same position.

[A]

Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, that's my next question.

[B]

Keep going. Okay, keep going.

[C]

So the restoration process, I think we think restoration because ye who are spiritual, restore someone in the spirit of meekness, considering your own self. But sometimes the most loving thing you could do is not restore a person back to the position they held because the weight of that position actually is crippling to them. They might not have the character, they might not have the capacity to be a leader and shepherd. That many people, they are gifted communicating, but they might not have the capacity to do that well while they're leading. So you can. I talk about in the book. You can be restored to a path and not a position and still be restored. Because our goal as a restorer is not to get you back to the platform. It's to get you back to your position and your path in Christ. Are you restored to your primary restoration journey should be to your family, to be repentance to those who harmed, to get back in right relationship with God. That's what restoration is. You may never get back to the platform because you just are not built for that kind of pressure and loving people. Well, in the restoration process is analyzing. Am I actually going to hurt them and hurt others by putting them back in this authority role?

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think when we. One of the things in culture, when people hear restoration in the church, especially people who've been harmed, they have such an adverse reaction because to them, restoration means, all right, they sit down for three months and they come back and we act like nothing happened. Nothing happened. That's not what I believe that God is calling for.

[A]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[C]

If a person is. Their goal is to get back to a platform, usually they have demonstrated just in my experience, they are Usually not repentant. The rush is to get back to where they were.

[A]

That's so good.

[C]

And so sometimes that looks like practically, what can we do to give people resources? Do we need to help them fill out job applications? Can we tell them that they're not their only skills? Skill is preaching. Should we help them get other skills? So I'm not gonna leave you out there where you. Okay, you lost your money. Are we creating avenues and revenue for them to find money in other ways? So there's practical things we could do in that process. And it also points us to, like, who do you see? Usually when people fall, you see the person that most reflects the pain you experienced. So if a leader falls and you're drawn to making sure the leader is good, but you don't care about the victims, it could mean that you're struggling with your own secret sin. And you want. When your own secret sin is exposed, you want to be handled in a certain way. So you don't do certain things to hold them accountable because you don't hold yourself accountable. So that's one aspect. So you lean towards them, or you still in a prison of shame and guilt from your past failures. So you're projecting what you want to happen to you onto them, but then you miss the person that got hurt. Yeah, but then on the flip side, you can project on them, because then when the leader falls and hurts somebody, then you see the person that hurt you and you're projecting your pain. And in each situation, you're centering yourself and not the people who were actually harmed.

[A]

That's good. That's really good.

[C]

And God is like, okay, this happened. Deal with what happened here. Don't bring all your stuff into it that impacts what's actually happening in the situation. And most of us, if you scroll on social media, people project all day. You like, how did you get. How did that lead a fall take you to when you was five?

[B]

It's not critical thinking.

[C]

And so we're living in a culture where people project and they're not dealing with the pain in front of. They're dealing with the pain behind them that keeps coming into their present moment that they refuse to deal with.

[A]

Yeah, I love what you said about restoration. You just said so much. But, like, I love what you said about restoration. Because, like, even when we look at John 21, when Peter is restored at the Sea of Tiberius, like some may say, you know, Jesus restored Peter and immediately called him back into ministry. Like, Peter, if you love me, feed my land. If you love Me tend to my sheep. But before he called him back into ministry, one, he. He prepared a meal for him by a charcoal fire, right? And so I think what we see, Even in John 21, in Peter's restoration, is before Jesus called him to do anything, he invited him back into fellowship, he invited him back into intimacy, into dying with him and to sup with him. And I think a lot of times people, I can't be restored because we're not really focused on their relationship with Jesus. We're focused on how to get them back. Back to a place. And it's like, no, like the place. What made them fall in the first place is they stopped dining with Jesus is the intimacy with Jesus stopped.

[C]

That's good.

[A]

And so I think, like, yeah, like. Like God wants us to have him before we have public ministry. So that's. I think that's super powerful.

[B]

And truly, it's. It's usually the kindness of God to remove the ministry to show you your idolatry to it. You know what I'm saying? Because I remember it was a couple years ago, there was a leader who fell significantly and maybe two months later was back on the platform talking about the fall. And all they kept saying is, I just miss being up here. I told Preston, I said, he didn't repent. He didn't repent because there wasn't any grief for what he did to his wife, how he affected the witness of the Gospel. It was just. I just missed preaching. And I'm like, man, this was the opportunity to excavate that idol. That. That was the. Because God is great, he might restore it to you if you could steward it well.

[C]

But you.

[B]

You not. You're not. You don't love him more. And I. I think. I don't know. I think even in hearing this conversation humbles me and grieves me and burdens me to, like, being like man. Like, the main thing has to stay that, like, you have to love him more than anything. If you have to love him more than what you do for him, you have to love him more than what you know about him. You have to love him. You have to just. You. You can't just get away with acting like you love him and being content with that. Because there's always more. Yeah, there's always more to know. There's always more to repent of. There's always more to confess. There's always. But it's like. It's freedom he's after. Ultimately, I don't know. I'm just. I'm just like, oh, I need to go pray that love.

[A]

I want to pray that love for the Lord is ultimately what's going to protect us. Because if, if. If it's not the love of God that is motivating everything, the enemy going to find a way to utilize that, he gonna find a door.

[C]

Because that's, that's the thing. You know, one of the things that I was really passionate about was allowing God to heal me. Because I always say, when bitterness takes root in your heart, truth gets distorted in your mind. And I knew that if I didn't heal the same thing, not maybe the same sin, but. But the victim would turn into a villain and I would harm people. Maybe not the same way, but a different way. And so I was reading through First John. I've been reading through First John, and I was struck by First John. It says that essentially that when hatred takes root in your heart, you lose direction.

[B]

Ooh, God.

[C]

That some of us lack direction because we have hate hatred. And the only way to get direction is to let love and light penetrate your heart. Because with hatred in your heart, even easy tasks become difficult. I can easily get to the front door in this room because the lights are on. But if I turn the lights off, I. It's going to be difficult to get to even what's easy.

[B]

Darkness. You in darkness when you got hate in your heart.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, we're. She is.

[C]

So when you're in. When you got hate in your heart, you're dark and you cannot see.

[B]

I'm listening.

[C]

And you have no direction. And I think many of us in our generation lack direction because we're full of hatred. And we only think the hatred is in the White House, but the hatred is not just out the door, it's in the mirror.

[A]

And I think, I'm gonna throw your own book at you and cause her harm.

[C]

And I think sometimes we are so focused on how other people are being hateful that we miss the ways we are. And that's what I hope the book says. It's like, okay, yes, your hero failed, but guard your own heart, because if not, you'll be next.

[B]

Yeah, it reminds me of that scripture. Somebody falls and da, da, da, da. Lest you be tempted. What's the first. All these biblical people. Yeah, of course, Jerome. I just want to. I just want to read it, cuz I. I think that's.

[A]

Is that the scripture leaves you cast your foot against.

[B]

No, sorry. It's okay.

[A]

You said something in the beginning of what you just said.

[B]

I wanted to Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should rejo. Restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. I just wanted to add that as a necessary scripture reference.

[A]

Yeah. You said something in the beginning of what you just said. I want to clarify because you said how victims can become villains. And I don't know if this is what you was talking about, but when I've seen people fall and I've seen people who. They did wrong to become a victim in the church, like a man falls with the young lady in the church, and because they love the man so much, they accuse her of stuff that she didn't do. Like, is that what you're talking about? Was that what you're referring to?

[C]

No, I was more so saying that, like, if you're not letting God heal you from the hurt you've endured from people that harmed you or disappointed you, that bitterness can turn you. You into a villain in another aspect of life.

[A]

I gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay. But, yeah, yeah, two different things. But I do also think that's problematic too. It's like, yeah, y' all be esteeming people so high that you can't really hold people accountable when they fall because you blame the victim. And I think that's just heartbreaking to somebody who's been victimized.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's why I talk about in the book, like, seeing. Spending your time actually listening to the person that's been harmed, giving that significant amount of time and saying, how can I provide help and healing to this person and spending time doing that. Because what happens is the church is so focused on the person they adore that they miss the person that was harmed. And it's like, no, that person is also an image barrier. That person needs our care. That person needs justice. What does justice look like if that justice needs. Like, you need to skip. If that person has been raped or violated, you need to skip the elders and call the police. 9, 1 1. Because you can't always trust that the leadership will do what they're supposed to do because they care about their pockets and the reputation of the organization. And so you gotta say, what does justice look like? But that doesn't mean that I lose hope for the villain. It's like, I can still pray for you while you in jail.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, something, we gotta close. But something that I've known you for a while now, and one thing I've often heard you reference is your parents. And I'm wondering even if their Witness and their testimony is a part of why you had hope, you know, because I think it's one thing to not have a frame of reference. My therapist was like, we all need a redemptive person, someone who communicates a narrative that opposes a false one. And so I guess I think in closing, I want to honor good leaders. And so I guess, what is it about the way your parents have led. You have led the church, like, live their life that you appeal like, that you look to when it comes to, like, nah, like, I can finish. Well, yeah.

[C]

So, one, I think one of the examples that my parents have always given that was helpful for me is that if they got something wrong, they would always apologize. So early on, if they yelled at us and they were wrong, they would always come back and say, I'm sorry. Two, I love the way they always demonstrated that. What they demanded from the church, they always demonstrated. So if there was a cleanup day at the church, they were the first people out there. If there was remodeling at the church because it was a smaller church, they were the first people out there. So they demonstrated what they demanded. So in the same way my hero told me, they actually demonstrated for me.

[A]

That's good. Right?

[B]

Right.

[C]

So they were my first. They are my first. If you say heroes, per se, I think I look to my hero because he had success in an area that was different territory than what they were operating in. But they have demonstrated for me what it looks like to continue, and they have demonstrated what it means to be gracious. I always tell my mama, sometimes I was like, you got more grace than Jesus. I think sometimes you need to check some people a little bit more for sure. But it's that constant, like, demonstration. Like, oh, I don't. I'm not as loving as them. I need to step my love game up. And so seeing that demonstrated and that character reflection and the constant push to me of, like, you gotta continue. Yeah, you gotta finish. My mom's favorite statement to say to me and my brothers, it only counts if you finish. So you think you're doing good now, if you finish, if you're gonna start this degree program, you better finish it. If you're gonna start this project, you better finish it. And so that instilling is really helpful that I do have someone. I do have a couple in front of me, my parents who have been demonstrators of what it looks like to be godly. And so. Which has been helpful to offset.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The negative experiences.

[B]

Yeah, I bring that up because I think for those listening, the Lord is faithful. And so I think if he has given you good leaders in your past, whether that's your parents or your pastors, he's given you a witness that holy and faithful leadership is possible. But if you, if you new to the church and you've experienced some church hurt or some failed leadership or whatever, pray for the Lord to redeem that to. To not despise leadership and not to be cynical and hopeless, but to say, lord, redeem this experience for me. You know, provide for me leaders that are faithful, that are good, and that show me you ultimately. And like, I. I believe God is able. I think that's a really holy prayer to pray. I think that's a better prayer than God, like hardening our heart and then moving away from what we actually need to grow in Christ.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

I would say that just reminded me what this helped me to do is appreciate my parents more. Because oftentimes we have looked at people that we admire that we can only see on the screen and miss the faithful couples in the church, the older elders that have been there and been faithful, we overlook them because they don't have the platform. And so it's kind of like it was a reality check to me. Pay attention to the people. It's faithful people all around you.

[B]

Yeah, that's good.

[C]

You were just looking at them because they have a bunch of followers, or you're looking at this person because they have on this platform. But what about all the faithful people at your church that you bypass? What about the couples that's been married 60 years that you don't ask them for no advice, but you asking the social media influencer that been married two months, what is in you that wants their advice but not theirs?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. And I just want to encourage the person that's probably listening. You might have a platform in your local church or just online. I think the enemy a lot of times wants us to have the perception of finishing well and not the reality of it. And so therefore, we don't confess things because we don't want to not finish in the eyes of people. But, like, real restoration happens with confession. Like, don't live a life because you're afraid of man, or cancel culture or the way people would treat you. Like, no, get your restoration now so that you can finish well in the future. And so, yeah, man, I want to just highlight the book When Heroes Fall by. Lisa Victoria feels. I didn't know that was.

[B]

Come on, Vicky.

[A]

Come on, Vicki. Yeah, man. Thank you.

[B]

We'll have a link in the show notes y' all follow Lisa ju3 project all the stuff that Lisa be doing and saying how she'd be dressing and all like she she real professional like she demurely like Lisa you dress like you got nine five but you you the boss. Hello. You're leading the meetings. Bye. Peace with the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda reed and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively Artwork by Hob. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.

[A]

You can't reason with the sun.

[B]

Trust us, we've tried.

[A]

This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion.

[B]

You're welcome, Columbia.

[A]

Engineered for whatever

[C]

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