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- [00:01]
A
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- [01:04]
B
Howdy. Greetings.
- [01:06]
C
What's good with y'?
- [01:07]
B
All? I am very bare faced because. Just didn't feel like doing all the things.
- [01:14]
C
Hey man, it'd be like that some
- [01:16]
B
days I just, I really, I just genuinely didn't and so.
- [01:19]
C
And guess what? You're still beautiful.
- [01:22]
B
Appreciate it. Yeah, I don't have much of an opening except we could just talk. You can introduce the topic.
- [01:30]
C
When we don't desire God, you. This is actually your idea.
- [01:34]
B
Yeah. I don't be feeling like praying, I'll be feeling like thinking, I'll be feeling like reading. I don't be feeling like doing all the stuff all the time. And I, I think, I think there can be this assumption that Christians who walk in like a leadership space and have some degree of maturity and biblical literacy, that they just be out here just, well, I can't wait to pray and it's just like, no, like I, I really don't be one to do all the things often.
- [02:02]
C
I think that's every Christian though, if we're, I know. If we're honest. Yeah. I think, you know, it's. The Christian walk can be. Yeah. It can be rough. It can, it has, it's like any other relationship has this, you know, es and you know, highs, ups and lows and so, you know, I'd be weary of like leery of those Christians who walk around here acting like, you know, they chipper every minute of the day. I think that's just not a reality. If Paul was burdened correct, what makes us think that we're not?
- [02:32]
B
Let Me put my phone on. Keep talking. I gotta put this on D and
- [02:34]
C
D. But yeah, like, I remember reading this John Piper's book when I don't desire God years ago. Remember chunks of it. I don't remember all of it, but I love Piper's aim in that book. I'm pretty sure we're going to put it in the show notes of us just censoring our hearts or attempting to sense our hearts back on the Lord. You know, when so many other things in the society world, our life is fighting for our affection. Because I think it's really an affection thing. I think because of sin, because of our fallen nature, I think everything is fighting for our worship. Everything is fighting for our affection, which has to be very frustrating. Not, not frustrating. I couldn't be the Lord.
- [03:24]
B
What do you mean?
- [03:25]
C
Because I think about, like, the, the relationships that we desire. Like, we talk about desire. Right. I think about the things that we desire. And God has to be the most holy being in all of the earth because he knows not only what we created for him, he, like, we did. Like, he deserves, he's like the only one that deserves our affection. And he consistently, I feel like, gets cheated on by us.
- [03:51]
B
Yeah.
- [03:52]
C
Of us not wanting him. You know, me and I.
- [03:55]
B
And I think God has. He's holy and righteous and just and stuff. But I also think he. He's aware of our frailty. Like, he knows that we are but dust. Because it's like, I'm just gonna. I'm not playing devil's advocate because I'm not trying to play the devil, but I, I. And I'm in a really cynical mood. So it is what it is. But I, I think some of it is like you're invisible. Right. Like, so sometimes it can be a bit frustrating to talk to someone who's invisible. Like, and to be walking by faith all the time. You understand what I'm saying? And so sometimes not one of the prayers because it's just like I'm literally in a shower talking to myself by faith, talking to God, but talking to myself and just waiting and trusting and hoping and anticipating and believing what the scripture says about you. I, I think that's a part of the wrestle. Is that we're dealing with a being who is. Is that your phone?
- [05:00]
C
I think it is.
- [05:01]
B
We're dealing with the being who is just really different.
- [05:05]
C
Yeah.
- [05:06]
B
Than us.
- [05:07]
C
Yeah. So, so different.
- [05:08]
B
You know, I think I probably sound like agnostic. I'm not saying it. I'm just, I'm just talking to the Reality like we're you keeping it real. He's not flesh and blood in, in front of us.
- [05:17]
C
So yeah, I think it could be super, super difficult for us to con, continual, continually grapple with this idea that all of the things that we desire and want is so ever before us. And then God wants us to pray to him who we, who we cannot see. And I think that's, I think that's what faith is. But I, I, I've thought about that before and the crazy thing is it's like even though a lot of the things are set before me, when I look back in the past and just reflect on the past, which I think remembering is such a huge part of our faith, like, like God is still the most consistent thing ever, you know, And I think that's the thing. Like, I think, I think when I struggle with not desiring God, it is always circumstantial, it is always something that's happening now. But when I reflect in the past, it's kind of like, oh, like yeah, I want this relationship with my dad, but God, you've been way more consistent than him, you know, I want this relationship with these people, but God, you know. And so I think a lot of times when it comes to desire, it is a lot of just reflection of who's been rocking with you. Like, for real, for real.
- [06:35]
B
Got it.
- [06:35]
C
Who's been consistent. I think for me that's what I, that's what I've, I've had to wrestle with because I think about three. When we first came to Atlanta and I was really struggling being here with not wanting the Lord like that.
- [06:49]
B
Why?
- [06:50]
C
Because I, I think I was just, I think, I think my circumstances was just so ever before. I missed home, I missed community, I missed my discipler, my, you know, Brian died, I missed everything and relationships was hard and I just felt like a dad. I just felt like, I felt like all I was was a dad, you know, interesting. And so, and then I was just trying to find, you know, what the Lord wanted me to do in life. I, you know, I had spoken word poetry, you know, and I was traveling doing that, but it was just, I just felt lost. And I think I just, it made me like kind of cool on God in some ways, which is unfair to him. But yeah, I, I struggled.
- [07:36]
B
And so I guess I, because I also want to put you in a position for you to talk more than me because I don't really got a lot to say. What did like, I guess get underneath that process? How does you feeling like A dad, you being in a new place. How does, why does God have to, why do you have to be distanced from him in light of those circumstances?
- [07:57]
C
That's a good question. I think, I think all of my circumstances, I think I could, Okay, I don't want to speak for everybody else. I could speak for me. And I think I've grown in this area, but I think with things are not going our way, we tend to blame God for why they are the way they are.
- [08:13]
B
Got it.
- [08:14]
C
And so for me, I was like, lord, you got me out here. And I think that just affected the way I showed up with him. And I think I was having a pity party. I think I was, yeah, just a lot, like in my flesh a lot. And I think it just created this distance because I think a lot of times when things aren't going our way in life, the first thing that we start to question is the Lord good to me? And I think that question just creates a natural distance because now we looking at the God of the universe with a Sarah, because things aren't going our way. And so I think for me it was just kind of like, ah, you made me leave my home and made me leave this. And I don't see how this is going to come together.
- [09:05]
B
Did you, Were you aware of the reasons why you were distant at the time?
- [09:13]
C
No, no, The Lord had to reveal it to me.
- [09:15]
B
Okay.
- [09:16]
C
I wasn't, I wasn't aware at first because I just didn't know how to feel, you know, you know, that about me. Like, I think a lot of times when you're going through something, you actually don't have language for why you feel what you feel. And so for me, I just, I didn't know. And then the Lord had to show me, oh, you're angry with me, you're mad at me, and it's cool. You know, I think God is so dope because he can handle our emotions and he can handle, even when we are upset with him. Are you mad at me? It's cool.
- [09:54]
B
And I'm saying, did he communicate that? Because you had to pray to get that revelation. So there's some degree in which even though you felt away, you still didn't completely not engage in some type of spiritual discipline.
- [10:08]
C
Yeah, I, I, I definitely still engage. I still prayed, I still read. I was really, like, deep into apologetics at that time and so just like doing all the things that I did, like, you know, geeking out on, you know, agnostic arguments and I was doing a lot of spiritual things. But I was doing it with the, like, I didn't have a lot of joy doing it. And so my joy was absent and I couldn't figure out why. And like when you would leave the house, I would feel sad, I would feel confused. And I think the Lord had to like really show me. Like, oh yeah, you feel some type of way about it. But it did happen with prayer. Like I, I would like in the morning, I would get up and pray and pray and pray and I felt like the Lord wasn't like talking back with me. And it was one day, it was like the Lord was like, I think you're, you're, you're, you're mad at me. You feel the type of way about me. And I had to deal with that. And I think a lot of times in my walk the Lord will show me my heart so that I can deal with it, you know. And so I had to deal with it.
- [11:14]
B
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- [12:23]
C
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- [12:38]
B
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- [12:56]
C
What about you?
- [12:57]
B
You got to ask me a better question.
- [12:58]
C
So, so about times where you feel like you didn't desire the Lord. What brought you to that place?
- [13:04]
B
I mean, it's kind of like weekly, so it's not like I think there are different seasons where the intensity is different. But I mean, even this weekend I had to teach in D.C. and I just had a fog and just a detachment because I'm just processing, going through a lot of things and all this stuff. And so I just didn't want to have to do all the things to prepare for ministry. I didn't want to pray, I didn't want to read, I didn't want to go through my manuscript. I didn't want to. I didn't want to sin either. I didn't want to do anything. And, and I think sometimes, sometimes I remember researching the word acedia, and acedia is like a really ancient word that kind of developed into this idea of sloth. And I think sometimes, particularly in seasons that are hard, you just develop a laz where you just are inactive. You don't feel like putting in any effort. Especially if it feels as if I'm a do all the stuff and then what's going to happen? I'm a pray for joy and I'm a still be unhappy. I'm a pray for clarity and I'm a still be confused. And so you start to feel really hopeless, which then makes you feel like, what am I going to do anything for? Because I think sometimes, if I'm being very honest, I think sometimes I've struggled with feeling like if I pray for the power to preach, you respond immediately. But if I pray for something else that feels still as consequential and as heavy, to me, you don't respond at the same pace. And so I think that can feel frustrating. Where it's like now you, you, you come to my aid when I have to do ministry, but when it comes to my mind, when it comes to my relationships, I have to wait on you. And I think, yeah, if I'm just honest, I think that can sometimes affect my delight.
- [15:08]
C
Yeah, yeah, that's super real. That's super real. Because, you know, like, man, I've dealt with the same, you know, temptations because I know the Lord knows everything. But sometimes it feels like if you answer this Lord right now, it would Actually really help.
- [15:24]
B
Yeah, it would be great.
- [15:25]
C
A whole lot.
- [15:26]
B
Yeah, it would be great.
- [15:27]
C
You know, have you wrestled through that, like, and I'm pretty sure you have. And I'm pretty sure me and you've had conversations, conversations about you wrestling through various things. But in your wrestling, has it, has the Lord spoken to you about why?
- [15:43]
B
Oh, yeah, I'm very clear. Like, like, I, I know I don't know a lot of Bible, but I know enough to know when I'm, I'm not thinking straight.
- [15:54]
C
Yeah.
- [15:54]
B
And so I, I, I, I, I think what I know that is true about God. His intention is to conform us into the image of His Son. And a part of that conformity comes by way of quiet dependence and waiting on the Lord and trusting in the Lord and believing that he withholds no good thing for those. What's that verse? He withhold no good thing from those who trust in him. Or something like that. There's so many promises in Scripture that should influence the reality that the God we serve is good, that he's responsive, that he's there. I mean, when you even consider Exodus and how Israel over here in slavery for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, and then the Lord eventually pops up on the scene, sending Moses because he's seen, he's heard, and now he's come down to rescue them. And so his timing is rarely ever the time that we prefer, but his timing is always what we need. So I know that, that just in the moment, I don't care, Like, I know it, I just, I don't care.
- [17:02]
C
How do you deal with that dynamic of like, knowing things, like, theoretically, but also like at the same time having these deep, deep emotions that it doesn't feel nothing about. It feels fair because I think about just, you know, people in the scripture who God just did not take thorns away from, Right? Or just seasons where we was just like this, prolonged seasons, you know, where it seems like God is like, how do you deal with the deep emotion of, yeah, like, this don't feel fair. This, like, low key feels like I don't want to, like, I want to speak for you, but I can speak for me like, lord, this seems a little cruel, you know, but at the
- [17:53]
B
same time, I think there's a difference between me and you, though, because you're justice oriented. I'm not. And so to me, it's never about fairness. It's almost always about comfort. So I don't think God is unjust. And so I don't ever really think in those ways. I'm just always like, I'm in pain, I'm irritated, I can't think straight. I'm lonely. I'm this. And so it's usually I just want deliverance from the pain. It's. So it's less about his motive and more about, like, I know you can do anything, so why won't you do that?
- [18:32]
C
Yeah. But even in his motive, when he doesn't take things away from you or take. Take things away or even give you things that you. That. That you feel like would genuinely help you, does that ever quite like. Because I think to know that God is a good God, he's withholding good things from me can seem like, for some Christian, can seem like that ain't fair. You got it in your hand and you won't give it to me.
- [18:59]
B
Yeah.
- [19:00]
C
And so you're saying you think about, like, just almost like. I don't know. I don't know. The word is like a POW party. Like, I want to be comfortable.
- [19:10]
B
Yeah. Because I'm basically saying I don't think about it in terms of fairness. I just. It's like I'm the kid who wants to sleep in or wants to go to this amusement park or wants to have friends or wants to do that. And he's the parent that's saying no. And I can't do nothing about it but submit. That's how it feels. It's just, yeah, I'm a kid and you're the parent, and I don't have a choice. And so it is what it is. And so I think some of the rebellion in me and some of the stubbornness in me is like, yeah, I don't know.
- [19:52]
C
Yeah, no, I get it.
- [19:53]
B
But I do. I do think. I do think having a knowledge of how any measure of unbelief is sin and that sin always spreads and becomes something other than what you expected. And so I think the knowledge of that is usually what pushes me out of it. Even if I do it with attitude, for example, it's like I can't be processing my doubts and my unbelief in my pity parties for too long and not think that that's not gonna create some root of something. And I think that awareness always scares me where it's like, I'm gonna pray because I know I'm a human being wrapped in some flesh. And I don't even want this moment of unbelief to lead to sin that I didn't even anticipate. You get what I'm saying? Because people just do you. Do you do bad stuff when you entertain untrue thoughts about God for too long?
- [20:55]
C
That's so good. That's so good. Yeah, I fell into some pretty dark things, like my second year of being a Christian just because I entertained so many lies. And that was before discipleship. And so I think even for Christians to hear that, it's like, yeah, don't be entertaining the devil.
- [21:16]
B
Yeah.
- [21:16]
C
Like, like, like resist him because he wants us to operate in lives so much.
- [21:22]
B
Yeah. Because when you're not desiring God on some level, there's the possibility that there's a lie being believed. There has to be also. Because if he's the most beautiful being in the universe, if he's good, if he's great, if he's the sustainer of all, if I'm breathing actively. Because, like, even. Even when we don't desire God, usually there's also a lack of thankfulness. And so it's like, if there's a lack of thankfulness, surely there has to be some type of blind spot when it comes to my perception of who God is and who I am in relation to Him. And so I think when you look at it on a really deep spiritual level, something's a little, we're human, but something is off.
- [22:07]
C
Yeah.
- [22:07]
B
That's all I'm saying.
- [22:08]
C
Yeah. Yeah. You know, what's. I hope this makes sense. Hope this train of thought, you can track me. I know one thing for me, and I think this can also be true for many Christians, is when it comes to desiring God, a lot of it is knowing yourself and truly knowing, like, who you are, like, in. Like in him, and you're really your Christian identity. Because I think for me, early on in the. When I was in the faith, I think. I think falling into this church mold, falling into, like, doing the things that I thought I was supposed to do, I think I convinced myself that I wanted him more than I actually wanted Him.
- [22:54]
B
Okay.
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C
Does that make sense?
- [22:56]
B
I'm letting you.
- [22:57]
C
Like, I think a lot of times, because I think somebody might hear us talk. Right. For example, and they might have the temptation that, that, oh, I want God all the time. And it's like, I think for. I think for me, early on, I think I fell into this mode of doing Christian things. But, like, when life hit me, I realized I really wasn't built like that. Like, I. Like, my heart really wasn't. I didn't want Him. I wanted more so ideas, and I wanted the appearance, and I didn't even know it. I didn't even know that. I've kind of fallen into this mode of just doing, doing, doing for the Lord, being, you know, Christian, saying the Christian lingo, you know, and it was just like the Lord was like, is it really me you're actually after? Because I think a lot of times we could be in the Christian community and we can convince ourselves. Like I wrote in my book how I convinced myself that I was a Christian when this dude named Gary started to disciple me. But the moment I saw him flirt with a girl at a bank and then got convicted showed me that I actually did not love him. And I think life, like, when it comes to desiring God, I think it could be similar. I think God allows us to go through things and say, it really wasn't me you were desiring, and I actually want you to desire me. And so you probably got excited. Cause you was doing ministry for me. You probably got excited because you was in community with Christian friends that you liked. You probably got excited because you know what I'm saying, you love. You love worship, praise and worship at your church. But at the end of the day, sometimes I'm going to allow you to go through something to show you you actually really didn't want me like you thought you did. And I think that's the hard thing about the Christian faith, is God. God doesn't really care about appearances like that. He actually wants heart, you know. And I think the Lord has done that with me, you know, a couple of times it's like, oh, I'm excited, Lord. I was like, yeah. Lord was like, you're excited for things. Yeah, you're not really excited for me.
- [25:06]
A
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- [25:15]
B
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- [25:22]
A
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- [25:24]
B
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- [25:27]
A
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- [25:38]
C
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- [25:41]
B
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C
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- [26:00]
B
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C
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- [26:06]
B
Y' all can speak to kind of the honesty portion of it. Because I do think that people are afraid to admit that they don't want the Lord, especially as Christians, because you don't want people to think, like, yeah. You just don't want people to think crazy about you, like, oh, are they Christian for real? Or whatever. And it's just like, I don't know. I think the Psalms exist for a reason. Because when you read the Psalmist, they were kind of like, yeah, I don't know where you at. I don't know what you're doing. I don't really understand. I don't really like it. Why are you not listening to me? Why are you hiding your face from me? Like, the honesty isn't necessarily unbelief, but the honesty can open up revelation of where there might be unbelief. And I think if we want to be pretentious about our affections for God, then we won't actually get the freedom that God might be after. And so I. I just have no interest in being pretentious. Like, in any relationship, affections wane.
- [27:13]
C
Yeah.
- [27:13]
B
And when they wane, it's actually an opportunity to go deeper. And so I. I think if there's people listening to us, and it's like, I can't believe that they're saying that they don't want the Lord. Sometimes it's like you don't either.
- [27:26]
C
Yeah.
- [27:26]
B
That's why you're sin.
- [27:28]
C
Yeah.
- [27:28]
B
Like, every. Every time you sin.
- [27:30]
C
Yeah.
- [27:31]
B
On some level, you don't want them.
- [27:32]
C
Is a denial of Him.
- [27:34]
B
Yeah.
- [27:34]
C
You know, and I think our hearts process that.
- [27:36]
B
Pray about it, think about it, admit it.
- [27:39]
C
Yeah. Because it's hard for the Lord to be in relationship with anybody who don't know themselves. And I think God. I think the reality is, is that God knows us more than we know ourselves. And I think, like, when we are the closest to Him, I think that's when he starts to reveal the truth about ourselves to us. You know what I'm saying? And that's just the reality of it. This is like this. He's the God of the universe. He's honest anyways. And he knows that we are fickle. He knows that we are not stable, that we are not. That we are finite and he's infinite, that we are inconsistent. He's consistent, that he is steadfast and we are just rocky. He knows that you know about us already. And so, like, to have this.
- [28:26]
B
Yeah.
- [28:26]
C
To have this assumption that you're always gonna want the Lord, it's just not realistic.
- [28:31]
B
It's not.
- [28:32]
C
It ain't realistic. And I think God, I think he. I think he embraces that truth, you know what I'm saying? Because I think it is his job, the Holy Spirit, particularly the member of the Godhead, to consistently pour out his spirit to give us. Him. To give us strength to actually want him in the first place, to draw us back to.
- [28:53]
B
Of the benefits of knowing Scripture. And one of the benefits of being united with Christ is that he will have you. You know what I'm saying? Like, you can only drift for so long before he gonna hit you across the head. You know what I'm saying? Like, he disciplines those that he loves. And so I'm always kind of looking at people that don't go through discipline.
- [29:17]
C
I'm like, you all. Yeah, yeah, you.
- [29:20]
B
You just. You just out and about and you ain't never getting hit upside the head. I don't know if you're his. I don't know if you're his.
- [29:26]
C
Like, that's real.
- [29:27]
B
Like, he's not fathering you. And so I don't know if you're a child of Him. And so that's. That's really just to encourage. Like, the Lord gonna hit you upside the head if you. If you. You drift for too long. But I think we have to also put ourselves in his way. By that, I mean, like scripture, prayer, fasting, community, all of that is a. Is a grace and it's a mercy. And even if you read and the irritation doesn't lift, or even if you pray and the clarity doesn't come, it doesn't mean it won't. But you gotta put yourself in his way. Like, you gotta get in the way of grace to something, like, so you can stay rooted on some level. Does that make sense, what I'm saying?
- [30:09]
C
Absolutely.
- [30:10]
B
Because I don't want us to have such a passive approach to these seasons where we think, because God is my Father, I could just relax and not fight. And it's like, no, you gotta. Even if your fight is weak, you have to fight something. And so the fight might be, like, even this weekend, I was like, all right, I don't even know how to pray. I just, like. I was like, I don't even know how to pray. I don't really got no, like, long. Like, I'm not going to be out here. Like, I'm not going to do all that. I was just like, Lord, I don't really feel like talking to you. I know I have to preach. I know I have to teach. I just need your help. I was like, I just need your help. And it was funny because in that process of being very honest in a really short way, it also humbled me because then I started to say, I have to communicate to these people. I have to serve them your truth. And even my state before you means that I need mercy.
- [31:17]
C
That's good.
- [31:18]
B
Like, I need mercy. Like, it's like I. I could get up here and communicate well, but I need power so that the communication actually bears fruit. And so it's like the wrestle that I'm having with myself is actually humbling me before I even get on the stage.
- [31:35]
C
That's really good.
- [31:35]
B
And I was. I was. I wanted to put it on threads, but I didn't feel like it. I was thinking about how. Like, how I was feeling could be attributed to some level of warfare. And I think that's legitimate. But I also think how I was feeling is preparation. And so sometimes before ministry moments or in. In life in general, that weight, that burden, that irritation, that frustration, that exhaustion, that acedia, all of that is actually putting you in the position to be humbled so that you can be useful.
- [32:06]
C
Wow.
- [32:07]
B
You know what I'm saying?
- [32:07]
C
Yeah, that's really good.
- [32:09]
B
I just said a lot, but.
- [32:10]
C
Oh, yeah, that's really good. I wanted to ask you, though, like. Cause you text me or whatever. I was. I think I was out of town. Just got back in town. You was out of town? You was like, pray for me or whatever. And I was like, watching your Instagram, so I was like, she being used by the Lord pretty mightily, you know, Merciful God. Yeah. But talk to people about that experience that, like, because you. I feel like this is a muscle that you've worked for years of having to be used when you don't feel like it. Because it's one thing to like.
- [32:48]
B
It's way more common than people realize.
- [32:50]
C
Yeah. It's one thing to, like, not feel like doing ministry. It's another thing when you, like. I don't even desire the God of the ministry. It's a thing, you know, and so talk to people about how that process and, like, what does it look like for the Lord to practically meet you in a moment like that?
- [33:17]
B
I think what was going on in my mind and my heart this weekend, one of the things about when you are low and when you are sad or when you are heavy and when you don't feel like praying, there is a degree of self centeredness that develops and self centeredness limits your capacity to love. Well, and so even me praying and me seeking the Lord, it was about, lord, help me, but help me so I could help them. You know what I'm saying? So I'm thinking about all of these people who are coming to hear from you. And so I don't know, I guess a part of the process is considering that to do the work that God has called you to do, you not only need power, but you need compassion. You need compassion and the compassion drives you to do the prayers. The compassion drives you to get on your face. The compassion drives you to do the thing that you don't feel like doing. I really, honestly, genuinely, like, even right now, I rather be in my bed scrolling on my phone. But it's like, I have to do this because I have to do this. You know what I'm saying? Like, the compassion is playing a part in the mission. And so it's just a. A thing. I don't know. The. The Lord uses crooked sticks.
- [34:39]
C
Yeah, he genuinely does.
- [34:41]
B
Like, I think it's the people it be the people that don't want to do the stuff that he'd be using then people that be like, well, I can't wait to preach. It's like, why anyone comes with that, right? Like, why do you want to do, like, why are you so excited?
- [34:53]
C
I don't.
- [34:53]
B
I can't relate.
- [34:54]
C
Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. That's real. I think that's helpful too, because I think, you know, as people start ministry and are in ministry, they can have this temptation to feel super discouraged when feel like it almost to blame themselves. It is like, no, like God actually wants us to lean into him more in those, in those moments. And in those moments, that's when we are really used in a mighty way. Because it's like, because in order for me to truly be used, I think what I hear you saying and what I've seen you do, and I've done it too. It's like in order for the Lord to really use us, sometimes he want us to say, okay, Lord, I don't have it. I have to get all the way out the way. Now it could be way more of you.
- [35:39]
B
Because when you don't got it. I'm sorry, go ahead.
- [35:41]
C
No, no, I was done.
- [35:43]
B
When you don't have it, you don't have it.
- [35:45]
C
Yeah.
- [35:45]
B
And so one, one metaphor that the Lord opened up for me maybe a couple years ago was just when the disciples. When the Lord told the disciples to go feed the 5,000, obviously we know it was more than 5,000. I probably said this on the podcast before charges of my. It don't matter. He told them to feed the 5,000. And they're like, lord, all we have is these fish and these loaves. They didn't have enough to do what he called them to do. They did not have enough resources. And Jesus says one sentence. He says, bring it to me.
- [36:23]
C
Yeah.
- [36:24]
B
And so oftentimes in ministry, that is my prayer, it's like, lord, all I got is a couple fish. All I got is a couple pieces of bread. Can you multiply it? Because I know. I know your greatest desire is to feed these people. You called me to do it. And so I. I think that's what life as a Christian is, is that we never have enough. Yeah, we never have enough. But sometimes he lets us feel it. He lets us actually understand that we're not as efficient as we would prefer to be. And that's when he uses us greatly. Because like Paul says in Second Corinthians, he was like, we despaired of life itself, but that was to teach us not to rely on ourselves, but on the God who raises the dead. Even the apostle Paul got tired.
- [37:05]
C
Yeah.
- [37:05]
B
Yeah. But he got tired because the Lord wanted him to trust and depend on him.
- [37:09]
C
Yeah. Yeah. And I. I think that's dope, because I think what I've heard you say, and I think what I've just. I'm hearing is more so than the. Than the. Than the consistent present of willingness. God really refers. Just obedience.
- [37:26]
B
Yeah.
- [37:27]
C
You know, because I think a lot of times we think about, oh, the Lord always wants me to have this joy when it comes to serving, serving, serving. And it's just like, no. What about when you don't have it? Would you still obey? And I think that obedience is really powerful. Really powerful.
- [37:42]
B
It's diligence. Yeah. You gotta do what you gotta do.
- [37:49]
A
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- [38:16]
C
Hey, you feeling hungry?
- [38:18]
A
Run to Denny's for the new Eternia
- [38:20]
C
Everyday Value slab, part of Denny's Slammin Meal deals and see the new Masters of the Universe movie only in theaters. June 5th. I think this might be a new concept to some people, even hearing us, like we said before, talk like this. But I think one thing that is helpful, I think, is really people really understanding. Like, I talk about the Trinity a lot throughout my Christian walk or whatever, you know, And I think a lot of times when people hear, like, stuff like the Trinity or Christology, it's like they think of those as deep theological things. But I think that deep theological whatever. I don't really think it's super deep, but I. I do think it's to help us to understand very practical things. And so when I think about the Trinity, I think about how the triune God of scripture all plays a role in our salvation. And I think we know that the Father is the one who drew us. Nobody can come to, you know, the Son unless the Father draws him. We know that Jesus died for us. But I think ultimately what we saying is that God, God job is to help us. And that's the Holy Spirit's job. And a lot of times the Lord helps us want him. Yeah, like, that is his job.
- [39:36]
B
It ain't even a lot of times,
- [39:38]
C
it's all the time.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah.
- [39:40]
C
Like, we, we, we, like, we cannot want God apart from his help. And I think we have this pride that. That we want to come to the Lord, be like, oh, I love you, I want you, I want you, I want you. And it can almost kind of feel to. To be like, lord, give me the love to love you. You know, like, help me love you. But it's like, that's literally the Holy Spirit's role is to draw us, is to pursue us, is to, you know, keep us, you know, in the faith. He's a keeper and a comfort in all of the things. And of course, he's a comforter and all and all that, but I think the Lord helps us want him.
- [40:19]
B
Yeah. And that's Bible. I mean, that's what it means to be given a new heart, to write my law. I'm gonna write my laws on your heart so that people obey not just because they wanted to obey the law, but now the law is written on my heart. So I'm obeying you from a place of sincerity. I'm obeying you from an internal disposition rather than just an external work.
- [40:46]
C
Yeah.
- [40:46]
B
And so, yeah, our salvation is literally God changing our hearts so that we can love him. And I think what you're saying, like, in. In consideration of, like, if that's God's work in salvation, it's also God's work in sanctification is that he is continually changing our hearts in such a way where we are. Our love for him is deepened.
- [41:12]
C
Yeah.
- [41:12]
B
And so. Yeah.
- [41:13]
C
Yeah. Because if he. If he is the most. Which he is, he's the most beautiful, loving, good thing in all of the universe. The most loving for him to do is consistently give us.
- [41:23]
B
Him.
- [41:24]
C
He has to. He has to consistently give us himself. But because of our sin and all of that, a lot of times we're going to struggle with that. We're going to wrestle with that. And I think the Lord meets us in that wrestle and say, man, I know you don't want me, but because I'm good and I know I'm the best thing for you, I'm going to consistently pursue you. I'm going to consistently help you so that you can receive the best thing. Yeah. You know, there is. Which is. Which is myself. And a lot of times that's a. That's a wrestle. You know what I'm saying? Like, and we got to be honest, we got to say, lord, okay, yeah, I don't. I don't want you right now. Help me.
- [42:07]
B
Yeah.
- [42:07]
C
And that God, he does not. He's not in his feelings about that, you know, And I think that's the beautiful thing about serving the Lord. Like, he can take our honesty.
- [42:15]
B
But, yeah, I think that's true. I think. I think we also have to acknowledge that there are things in our lives that can also play a part in the lack of delight. You know, so you have seasons of suffering where the delight is just hard to come by because you're sad, you're in pain, life is hard, but you're pursuing, you're seeking as best as you can. But then you have situations where if there's some sin, sin is going to quench delight every time. You know what I'm saying? And so I think distinguishing between am I not delighting in God because I'm in a season of suffering, or am I not delighting in God because I have sinned and I need to repent of, I think is a helpful conversation.
- [43:01]
C
That's good. That's good because I think. So are you saying sin when you say sin? Are you talking about unrepentant sin or you talking about sin that you might not even realize you're Both. Yeah, yeah.
- [43:13]
B
Like, it could be, because that. That has to be a part of the question is like, lord, is, is there something. I'm like, because I think there are some heart struggles. There could be some heart sins where you might not Be doing nothing crazy externally. But the Lord is like, ah, there's some covetousness there. Or, oh, there's some envy there. He has to reveal that. But it's like, if you out here watching porn every day, of course you're not delighting in the Lord. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's, that's just an obvious.
- [43:40]
C
Very hard to delight with porn.
- [43:42]
B
That's what I'm saying. That's just kind of. Or whatever. Like, that. That's an obvious. That's going to quench joy in the Lord.
- [43:49]
C
Ye.
- [43:50]
B
And so I say that because I think identifying the source of the lack of delight helps you to know how to actually deal with the issue. So if I'm in a season of suffering, it's like, I need strength, I need hope, I need steadfastness in this trial. If I'm in sin, I need to repent and I need to replace. So my lack of delight is coming from a place of. I'm actually getting delight elsewhere there.
- [44:19]
C
Yeah.
- [44:19]
B
And so that's why I'm not delighting you, because I'm getting all my joy over here. But then if I remove the idol, if I deal with the sin pattern, if I deal with the issue now, my heart is open to trust you to feel me in the way I was trusting that.
- [44:32]
C
That's good.
- [44:32]
B
And so I, I think it matters, discerning the source of the lack of joy so that you can deal with it appropriately.
- [44:40]
C
Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Yeah. Because I think sin separates us from the Lord ultimately. And I, you know, I used to have this. I used to have this thought that when I was in sin, I was separated from the Lord because he was just like, mad at me, which the Bible says that, you know, he is angry.
- [44:59]
B
He can be grieved.
- [45:00]
C
Yeah, he can be grieved or whatever. But I do think that in a very practical way, sin separates us from him because it's like, God is like, I'm not like that. Like, I'm not like, in any relationship, you know, you probably don't desire God because you not own what he own. He's like, I. I'm about doing good to people. And you're gossiping right now. You know what I'm saying? I'm about, you know, honor and respect. And you're being rebellious right now. And so, like, I, I do think that sin separates us from him when we're not walking like him, you know,
- [45:36]
B
and define separation, not separate, but, like,
- [45:39]
C
because nothing can separate us from the, The Bible says nothing can pluck us out of the hands of God. But I do think that it can kind of disrupt this feeling of communion, fellowship, delight, dining with him. Because you can still be the Lord's and be his child, while at the same time y' all just not seeing.
- [46:00]
B
Yeah.
- [46:01]
C
Like you, you know, y' all not seeing eye to eye right now. And it's because some idols are in the way.
- [46:06]
B
Yeah, I've, I've had times where the lack of delight is really just a guilty conscience.
- [46:14]
C
Break that down.
- [46:17]
B
You just, your conscience is because the, when, when you have a new heart, you have an awakened conscience. And so you have a sense of right and wrong that's just significantly. It's just deeper than what it was when you was in the world. When you was in the world, you could just sin and sin and sin and sin. And you might know it's wrong, but it don't affect you. Yeah, in Christ, it affects you because now you got the Holy Spirit. And it's like when your conscious is, is burd. It's like you could do all the worship in the world, all the prayer in the world, all the reading in the world, but, you know, until I confess this and deal with this, I won't actually have peace.
- [46:56]
C
Yeah, yeah. I wrote, it's a whole section of my book where I wrote about that. When I said you could live comfortable with sin your whole life, but once you are made aware that it's offensive to a holy and a righteous God, it becomes a nagging, unwanted guest in the home of your heart. And it really did. Like, it was just like, like God, you don't, you don't like nothing. That's what it felt like. It was like, I just can't get away with nothing.
- [47:19]
B
No, you can't.
- [47:20]
C
You know what I'm saying? I, I, I speak to somebody crazy, I go home and I feel convicted. I gotta, like, call that person and apologize to have peace. It's like, you know, like, like righteousness can feel like a huge inconvenience in the heart of the believer. Cause it's like, it's so opposite from our sin nature that we were born into. And so a lot of times, let me ask you this. Do you think that sometimes it's hard to delight in God because we're tired of fighting? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're tired of just fighting. It's like, lord, I don't wanna fight. I wanna be mean today.
- [47:58]
B
Can I be mean today?
- [48:00]
C
It's like, can I Just. Can I just talk to people crazy for one day? Yeah.
- [48:03]
B
Because we kind of talked about this last night during our great conversation.
- [48:09]
C
Oh, it was a great conversation. I was thinking about that. When you said it was good, I was like, no, that was a great conversation.
- [48:14]
B
That was sarcasm right there. Dang.
- [48:17]
C
I thought we was on the same page.
- [48:19]
B
No, that was actually sarcastic.
- [48:19]
C
I thought we was on the same page. How we be thinking we on the same page with the Lord.
- [48:22]
B
It was literally. But it's fine.
- [48:24]
C
It was a great conversation. Cause I cried. I think that's why I said. Cause I had got emotional. I was like, oh, I was talking about some stuff that the Lord revealed to me. And when I was in the ocean, by the ocean this weekend.
- [48:35]
B
One thing we're also learning through marriage counseling is that. That we can have separate points of view. But that. That's okay, you know? So what was great to you was good to me. But that's. It's all right. Like, I'm loved, you're loved.
- [48:49]
C
The Lord. The Lord been, like, dealing with my heart, y', all, about a lot of different things.
- [48:53]
B
It's okay. So in referencing the great good conversation, what I was. We were expressing how, like, there are things that the Lord is telling us to do with other people or with each other or whatever that we don't feel like we have capacity for. And I was sharing with him. I was like, yeah, I don't. I just don't have capacity for that. But I know I could get capacity if I prayed about it, but I don't want to pray about it. And. And so I do think that prayer. We know that in. In some ways, God ain't gonna show up with some stuff. And. And. Or he will show up. He just might not show up in the package that we want. But we also know that there are some things, like the Lord is going to tell you what to do. He's going to energize you to obey, because you don't want to obey. You want to go around him when it comes to that thing.
- [49:46]
C
That's really good.
- [49:47]
B
So because prayer puts on you a responsibility, it do. It just does. So it's like, sometimes we don't want to pray because we know for a fact we got to get to work after. We don't want to. And so there's plenty of thing. I'm like, I don't want to worry about that, because I don't.
- [50:02]
C
That's real.
- [50:03]
B
I don't want you to tell me do that.
- [50:05]
C
We're afraid of what's on the other side of the prayer? It's like, if I pray, Lord, and you be like, okay, die to yourself 7, 17 days in a row.
- [50:13]
B
It's like, okay, Lord, don't want to.
- [50:14]
C
I don't want to do that.
- [50:15]
B
Yeah. I don't want to talk to you.
- [50:16]
C
I'm already dying.
- [50:17]
B
Yeah. So I. I definitely think that.
- [50:20]
C
Yeah, that's real.
- [50:21]
B
There can be that. That's why in Hebrews, when it talks about the Lord's discipline, it says, do not grow weary with the Lord's discipline. Right. And so you. Cuz I. I've had. I've been in what feels like a pruning season for so long that I've. I've become used to it. But I think at the beginning of it, it was just. I was like, I'm exhausted with the way you want to change me. Like, I'm. I'm kind of getting tired. It's just. I'm weary. And I think you can grow weary with how the Lord develops you, but it's just like you can't. And that's why it says the. The Lord disciplines those that he loves. And. No, discipline is pleasurable at the time, but it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. You can be disciplined. And. And let's be clear. Discipline is not condemnation. Discipline is not. Not the Lord executing justice on you that was executed on the Son. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Discipline is the means of great. It's the testing, it's the wilderness, it's the valley, it's the pruning. It's the Lord using circumstances to sanctify you. And so in the Lord disciplining those that he loves. What was I saying? What was I saying? What was I saying?
- [51:44]
C
It's not.
- [51:45]
B
It yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. You can go under discipline and waste it. It. You can waste it. Like, how many people just go through trials and because they didn't lean in and because they didn't find the means to delight, and because they didn't pray and because they didn't fast, it was just wasted pain. I have no energy for that. And so it's like. It's like when you're more prone to grow weary, when you're actually leaning into the work.
- [52:10]
C
Yeah.
- [52:10]
B
Does it make sense?
- [52:11]
C
No, it. It does make sense.
- [52:12]
B
So you. You won't. You won't be righteous just because he disciplined you. You'll be righteous when You. You allow yourself to be trained and developed by the discipline.
- [52:20]
C
Yeah. Because I think I. Because discipline can Sometimes, especially when we. When we are in our most fragile state, it can feel like harsh discipline when it's.
- [52:32]
B
It might be.
- [52:32]
C
Yeah. But it can feel like. Not necessarily harsh discipline, but condemnation.
- [52:38]
B
Yes.
- [52:39]
C
It can feel like. It can feel like, you know, God is mad or angry. And this is like. You know, I've been posting on my IG stories, and I'm getting into gardening. And, you know, yesterday I went outside and I saw, like, this. This beautiful. Just I felt. I saw the fruit of my labor. You know what I'm saying? I saw my peppers coming up. I saw my tomatoes going up. And a lot of that stuff did not flourish until I stopped pruning. Pruning that stuff. I stopped pruning those bushes. I started getting stuff out of the way. And, like, what if. I mean, I know these plants don't have the ability to fight me like we fight God, but what if it did, though? What if it always got in the way of this pruning process, of me trying to shape it so that it can have the best possibility to flourish? And I think God is saying sometimes you can grow very weary of this process when it's ultimately for your good. It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good for that plant to get snipped. But, like, man, in two weeks, it's gonna reap the benefit of all of this fruit. And I think, you know, I think God wants us to remember that. No, he's consistently pruning us so that we can, you know, produce great fruit for him, but also for. So that we can enjoy him and love him and receive the best thing in all of the universe, which is him forever. And so I think, just keeping that in mind, that God is not mad at you.
- [54:07]
B
No, he's not.
- [54:07]
C
He's not. He's not being cruel.
- [54:09]
B
Even John 15 says that he prunes those who are bearing fruit.
- [54:15]
C
Yeah.
- [54:16]
B
So that they would bear more. So a lot of. I think we should see the pruning as affirmation.
- [54:22]
C
Yeah.
- [54:23]
B
Where it's like. No, like you doing. You're actually doing a better job than, you know, and I want you to do a better job. Like, I. I want that to. I want to gas that. I want that to grow. I want that to change. I want that to. I want you to level up and to do that. I gotta cut, you know, But. But the cutting is in light of the fruitfulness, not because of the lack of fruitfulness.
- [54:45]
C
Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite. One of my favorite, favorite movies of all time is Love and Basketball.
- [54:51]
B
Wow.
- [54:51]
C
It is. I just think it's a dope movie. And I remember I used to think that.
- [54:56]
B
Now I think it's like, you know how the. The young people, they. They say that girls are a bird.
- [55:02]
C
Yeah, she.
- [55:03]
B
She was a bird.
- [55:04]
C
Yeah, she.
- [55:04]
B
She was. She. You. You played this man for his heart. I wish I would play a basketball game with you after you done. You done cheated on me and took a girl to McDonald's and then you with Tyra, and it's just like, that's crazy. Let that man go. Well, like, if any of our daughters behave that way, I'm literally gonna have to stop.
- [55:27]
C
That's not gonna happen.
- [55:28]
B
But go ahead.
- [55:28]
C
But anyways, when.
- [55:31]
B
Great movie, as you would say.
- [55:32]
C
Yeah, it was a great movie. I liked the movie Growing Up.
- [55:36]
B
Sheesh.
- [55:38]
C
Let me like the movie Growing Up.
- [55:40]
B
No, it is a good movie.
- [55:41]
C
Yeah. I haven't seen it in years.
- [55:42]
B
I think the principles are problematic.
- [55:44]
C
Yeah. But I think you almost made me forget my thought.
- [55:46]
B
I'm sorry.
- [55:46]
C
But basically what I. When Monica, when she. When she was on the team or whatever, and she was getting a hard time from my coach in college, and she was like, you're always riding me. And then the coach was like, you think I ride people with no potential? She said, when I ignore you, then you worry. And I think that's just a really great picture of how the Lord treats us. You really, what you like, don't be upset that the Lord is consistently pruning you. You should be afraid when the Lord ain't saying nothing when the Lord is ignoring you.
- [56:18]
B
That's what I'm saying.
- [56:19]
C
You know what I'm saying?
- [56:20]
B
Like, some of these people out here, not getting disciplined. I'm like, it's just like, you're probably
- [56:24]
C
not getting pruning, cuz you might.
- [56:26]
B
You ain't in the vine. You're not in the vine.
- [56:29]
C
You might not even be a seed.
- [56:32]
B
I don't really know how righteousness. I don't know how we got here from not desiring God though, because I think.
- [56:37]
C
I think. I think the. I think how we got here from not desiring God is we talked about how weary can be be for us to consistently be pruned. And that can make us be like,
- [56:49]
B
I'm pruned doing the work of trying to desire God and how that can be exhausting.
- [56:54]
C
Yeah, I don't want to desire God because you keep you. You on me too. Much.
- [56:58]
B
Got it, got it, got it.
- [56:59]
C
You're on my back.
- [57:00]
B
Yeah.
- [57:00]
C
You know, and I think that like, don't get like God is producing, he wants to produce fruit and so stick in there, like. And don't think that God is, you know, out to get you. Yeah, get out to get some out of you.
- [57:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah. I just want to affirm that you're not always going to feel lovey dovey feelings about the Lord. You're going to struggle with delight, you're going to struggle with joy. And dare I say that it might be daily we don't wake up full of joy. Like we wake up with our burdens. We wake up with our schedules, we wake up with our calendars, we wake up with our consciences. Some of us wake up with certain, certain dreams in our minds. And so that's, that's, that's why we have to drink, you know, that's why we have to pray. That's why we have to get in the word, not to check off a list, but to remind ourselves of what is true about Him. And that's the development of delight. And so even, even if you don't feel like you're delighting in the Lord, there is still an element of faith that is at work when you still choose to do the things, things that can stir that up. Does that make sense? And so I just, I just want to affirm that like that's the daily walk and the daily fight of being a Christian is loving him when you don't feel like loving him, and choosing him when you don't feel like choosing him and listening to him when you feel like ignoring him. And that, that, that's a work of the Holy Spirit, but it's also the Holy Spirit activating your efforts. It's work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is he who works in you to will and to work for his good ple. That's just what it means to be a Christian. And like the conversation we had is like, we just got to grow up at the end of the day.
- [58:46]
C
So that's a good affirmation. I want to affirm your hat. It's a really cool hat.
- [58:50]
B
Thank you.
- [58:51]
C
And I know you don't have makeup on today, but it's like you got this really cool hat on with these glasses. You like a cool, smart mouse. Mouse, like, but a pretty mouse. A really pretty.
- [59:03]
B
I'm a rodent now.
- [59:04]
C
That's, you know what? Now that I think about it now when you, like when you play it back to me. I could see how that sounded crazy,
- [59:10]
B
but, you know, wow, you're really applying our counseling. That is crazy. You did that in real time. Like a real cute. We have been having counseling about communication and I just love that. Like, that was. That was. And I apologize. I directed or I interpreted your assessment. I don't want to be compared to a rodent. But I'm pretty sure in your mind you weren't saying you look like a rat.
- [59:44]
C
See, a rat and a mouse is two different things.
- [59:46]
B
Yeah. Those are distinctions that you have in your mind that I don't have in mind. It's a rodent, but that's. You're talking about the cutesy kind of like thing.
- [59:54]
C
Yeah.
- [59:55]
B
That's your intention. So your execution is different than your intention. But my interpretation also isn't fair.
- [60:01]
C
Yeah, yeah, that. Look at us. We're doing so good. Really. It's just the hat. It's just the ears. It had nothing to do with your face.
- [60:09]
B
It's just loop. See? Clarity. Yeah, Clarity is kindness. Because I forgot I had ears on. The hat.
- [60:15]
C
Yes.
- [60:15]
B
I thought you saw my face.
- [60:16]
C
No, no, it's just the ears. It's like. It's kind of like a little mouse ears and so.
- [60:21]
B
Okay, we can wrap it up.
- [60:23]
C
Peace.
- [60:23]
B
Bye. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing Mc Bride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hob thank you for listening. Now go with God.
- [60:47]
C
Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.
- [60:55]
B
It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you
- [61:01]
C
to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
- [61:05]
A
Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com.