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- [00:01]
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- [01:53]
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- [02:54]
Danny Donovan
You can't see how heavy anybody else's backpack is. And your backpack being heavier than others. Just because you can carry it doesn't mean that it's the same weight as other people's. It just means that you had to build a lot more muscle. You had to get stronger, like you had to become stronger in order to deal with what you were given.
- [03:17]
Katie Weber
Hello and welcome to the Women and ADHD Podcast. I'm your host Katie Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45 and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships,
- [03:35]
all of it with this new lens,
- [03:36]
and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience and now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Women in ADHD Podcast. Before we get started, I have some exciting life updates that I wanted to share. First of all, after four years of classes and papers and presentations and a year long internship, I have officially earned my Master of Science in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. It has been an incredible journey and I am deeply grateful for this opportunity to continue learning about the intersection of mental health, neurodiversity and the lived experience of so many women in this community. So the next step is going to be to pursue my licensure in New York State and I am very excited to see where this next chapter leads. So stay tuned. One benefit of finishing grad school and the internship is that I now have a little more room in my schedule. So for the first time in quite a while, I have a limited number of coaching spots available for women navigating ADHD overwhelm, executive functioning challenges, life transitions, or simply just trying to understand your brain with more compassion. If you have been thinking about ADHD coaching, head to womenandadhd.com Katie to book a free 15 minute consultation. And once these openings are filled, I will likely be returning to a wait list. And finally, some very exciting podcast news. The Women in ADHD Podcast will be moving to a more frequent schedule. New episodes will now be airing on the first and third Monday of every month. That means More conversations, more stories, more practical strategies, and more opportunities to hear from people who understand what it's like to navigate life with a neurodivergent brain. I've already recorded some incredible upcoming interviews, and I cannot wait to share them with you, so stay tuned. In the meantime, here we are at episode 210 in which I interview Danny Donovan. Dani is an ADHD content creator, a speaker, and the celebrated author of the Anti Planner how to Get Shit Done when youn Don't Feel Like It. Dani became an overnight sensation when a flow chart she drew for her co workers mapping out her winding ADHD storytelling style went viral on Twitter. Since then, she has built a massive community by bringing radical vulnerability, humor, and data visualization to the neurodivergent experience. Dani has spoken at major companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Adobe, and she is also the founder of the Anti Boring Project. In this episode, we dive deep into the specific trauma of being told, you are too smart to have adhd. Dani shares her story of growing up with teachers who dismissed her mother's ADHD inquiries because she was getting good grades. And I share my own history of co founding the Gifted underachievers Club and the Gifted to ADHD Diagnosis pipeline. We also explore the magic behind visual storytelling for ADHD brains, why traditional productivity systems seem to fail us, and how the Anti Planner organizes strategies by your current emotional resistance, such as being stuck, overwhelmed, or unmotivated. And make sure to listen to the end because Dani shares some exclusive details about an exciting interactive digital tool she is secretly prototyping. All right, here is my interview with Danny Donovan.
- [07:15]
Danny Donovan, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
- [07:19]
Danny Donovan
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat.
- [07:21]
Katie Weber
I am way more excited because I feel like when I was diagnosed in 2020, you were one of the major celebrities in the ADHD scene on Twitter. May it rest in peace. So this is like a dream come true to be able to interview you. So thank you and congrats on just this life you have built for yourself. So incredible.
- [07:45]
Danny Donovan
It's really wild because I did not plan any of it. My first talk that I wrote, I have like five or six different talks now that I do because I really do like public speaking. And the first one is called the Art of Self, how I accidentally became an ADHD influencer overnight because it was like truly an accident, which is pretty wild. But now it's my whole, like, I couldn't have planned this, but I love it so much.
- [08:10]
Katie Weber
Well, and it is kind of an interesting sphere of influence too, because, like, a lot of ADHD influencers, like, a lot of it is about relatability, a lot of it is about vulnerability. And a lot of it is being completely open about, like, the shit in your closet, right?
- [08:25]
Danny Donovan
Like moldy coffee cups, right?
- [08:27]
Katie Weber
And so there is, like, I feel like it's very healing in a lot of ways, like, to target that shame and to just like put it on its end and say, like, you know what? I refuse to.
- [08:39]
Danny Donovan
I think that a lot of. Well, there's kind of two things that I noticed, which was that, like, it was so cathartic for me to just be open about the stuff that I felt ashamed about and to have because of how I presented it, because I was put, you know, especially putting it in like a humorous light that people were able to see themselves in it and go like, oh, my God. Like, there was this trend on TikTok where people were like, things in my eco friendly home that just make sense. And then they, like, had all this, like, eco friendly stuff that they bought on Amazon, right? And everything's got like the glitter filter on it. And I did one that I was like, had this like, super sweetsy voice and I was like, things in my ADHD home that just don't make sense. Like part one is like abandoned beverage containers. And then I just went all over my house and my doom piles and was just showing all of my random cups that were like on the ground and like on every surface. And people. I remember people being like, this is the first time I feel like my house has had, like, representation because we got so much highlight reels. Everything is everybody trying to show the best sides of them. And so for people to kind of show up and be real, especially at the time, was pretty new.
- [09:47]
Katie Weber
Yeah. Yeah. So now you were diagnosed in college, right?
- [09:52]
Danny Donovan
Yes, freshman year of college. Should have gotten caught in grade school. My mom asked my grade school, asked my third grade and fifth grade teacher if they thought I could have adhd. First off, I did not find out about this until, like, well into my ADHD career. Like, this was a couple years ago. My mom mentioned this to me and she, I think was a shame that she talked to my teachers about it instead of a doctor. But she figured that teachers would, like, know what teachers would possibly have outdated views as to how ADHD works. And one said, she can't have adhd, she's too smart. And the other one said, well, she's doing good in school.
- [10:25]
Katie Weber
So end of conversation.
- [10:27]
Danny Donovan
And it was pretty much, I think there's so many, especially women with adhd, where it's like, it's really funny that. That if you aren't failing or disrupting others to the point that you're getting in trouble, which I was disrupting others and getting in trouble. But if you're not getting bad grades, then the ADHD diagnosis, I think, doesn't happen for so many people.
- [10:48]
Katie Weber
Yeah. Or the flip side, I was the kid who was getting in trouble and wasn't doing very well in school, but I was in the gifted program. So it was this couple of friends and I, we created the Gifted Underachievers Club, which was like, kids who were gifted and were waiting to be kicked out of the gifted program for some reason weren't. But we also got D's all the time. And so it was like this constant back and forth of, like, you should be doing right. You have so much potential. You should be doing your. You're such a failure for getting your Ds, and yet also, like, what do we do with this kid? And I think this flip side was like, it's no coincidence that we were all girls, because I think, like, there was this general sense back then that, like, if a boy was struggling, he had adhd. Let's get him help. If a girl was struggling, or if a girl, you know, you get sent to the principal's. And same with kids of color, too. Right. Like, we see this all the time. If they're being disruptive, if they're bored, if they're, you know, not doing as, you know, if they have so much potential as we say, they're like, you got to figure your shit out. You got. Or you're going to the principal's office. Right.
- [11:47]
Danny Donovan
I had actually a question that I posted yesterday online that was like, what was the most unfair thing you got in trouble for as a kid? And so it was really fun seeing the responses. But I've got a story that, you know, tell lots of people. But I gotten. I got demerits a lot for talking back to teachers Talk, quote, unquote, talking back, which was the, like, not raising my hand enough, but also, like, questioning authority at a very young age. And, like, not assuming that people were right just because they were older than me. And I got. I got sent to Merit for, well, actuallying a pr like a priest during religion class. And my mom, like, found out everything. She was like, you were right, though. I'm like, I know,
- [12:27]
Katie Weber
I know. Right? I know. That's one of my favorite stories is I got sent to the principal's office because I was sent out to the hallway for being disruptive and talking. So my teacher first sent me to the hallway. So then I was missing whatever was going on. So, you know, there was already like that.
- [12:40]
Danny Donovan
Why is she getting D's?
- [12:42]
Katie Weber
Right? Exactly. And I. And I decided to count this. The dots in the ceiling drop. Ceiling tiles.
- [12:48]
Danny Donovan
I do that stuff all the time.
- [12:50]
Katie Weber
So my plan was, I'm out here, I'm bored, I'm going to count the tiles, I'm going to count how many dots are in each tile, and then I'm going to try to decide how many. You know, figure out mathematically how many tiles were in the entire hallway of the school. And. And so I'm doing this very important job, and the teacher sends a kid out to say, like, you know, Katie, you can come back in the classroom. You're allowed to come back now. And I was like, I'm not ready to come back into the classroom. I'm doing this really important mathematical job. And then I got in trouble. I got sent to the principal's office. And now I look back, right.
- [13:19]
Danny Donovan
I relate to this so much. You were saying that. I was like, yes. And I stopped. I go, I'm realizing this is maybe not a thing everyone does. Like, I had especially again, like, I'm not, I'm not religious anymore. But like, at the time, you know, we got put in like, like church and stuff, and I had counted every light bulb and I counted everything there was to count in that area because you're just sitting there. And I'm like, all right. And so being able to learn that I have had zero original experiences, I guess, is one of the things that I've really found out through sharing my ADHD experiences online is everybody was like, oh, you mean that after you've cleaned your sheets, you don't sleep on a bare ass mattress for three days?
- [14:04]
Katie Weber
It's true. It's validating and weirdly humbling at the same time. So what did your mom see then, when you were a child? Because there is that sense in a family, especially where you're like, you were right. You should have, you know, questioned authority. Like, sometimes parents don't see a lot of these traits because they relate to them, right? Or they say, like, this is perfectly normal. So what was she seeing?
- [14:25]
Danny Donovan
There was a lot of me getting in trouble for stuff that my mom agreed was not fair for me to have gotten in trouble for. Like, after fifth grade, at a certain point, she was like, do you want to go to public school? Like, if you want to go to public school, you can go to public school. I was like, please. And so I fit. I had a better. I would say better experience there because there was not, like, the same level of, I don't know, like, authority that I was getting in trouble with all the time. But I heard from her, you know, like, over and over again that, like, the things. I felt very glad to have her in my corner because many of the things I was getting in trouble for, were they silly or adults, like, felt like purposely misunderstanding me. Like, in kindergarten, she told me that I asked they had, like, a canine, like, police officer who came with a, like, German shepherd to class. And they said, does anyone have questions? And I said, why do dogs smell each other's butts? And everybody laughed. And they got in trouble because they thought I was being inappropriate on purpose. And it's like, I want to know. I'm in kindergarten. I don't know the answer to this. I noticed this pattern of things that dogs. Do you have a dog? You asked if there are questions. Maybe, you know, and my mom goes, I bet they didn't even know. She was like, I bet they didn't know. I bet that's why they didn't tell you.
- [15:42]
Katie Weber
Well, that's amazing. You know, I feel like there's some forethought there in terms of, you know, she was a trailblazer, I guess, in terms of seeing some of these symptoms and recognizing them as neurodivergence.
- [15:54]
Danny Donovan
And I think she. She relates to them a lot now. And so, like, growing up, like, I. I feel very, very grateful. My mom and I are very similar. And for a long time growing up, I hated being told that, like, being. Nobody likes being told you're just like your mom. And I was like, ugh. And now I can kind of, like, step back and see so many of the traits that she has that I, like, maybe didn't understand at the time, especially a lot of, like, anxiety. But now I'm a stepmom, and so I get it a lot more. And so being able to recognize how rare it was to have someone, I think, in those moments that's going to be on their kid's side and going up against a principal. Although I found out later in life, my dad went to school with my grade school, the place I kept getting in trouble all the time, went to school with the principal, and, like, him and his friends had, like, bullied, like, the principal. Like, it was. It was a total Freaky Friday situation where, like, the teacher not only but like, someone in charge may have had, like, a grudge against me because of who my parents were.
- [17:04]
Katie Weber
Oh, dear.
- [17:05]
Danny Donovan
And so anyways, that goes back into the, like, unfairness. But I have found justice sensitivity is, like, a thing for a lot of neurodivergent people, too. And, like, the sense of fairness that when it, like, does not show up for, you know, it doesn't have to be for kids, but, like, even in. In workplaces, Workplaces also do not like people who ask too many questions and go, why are we doing it this dumb way? This doesn't make any sense. And they go, that's just the way things have always been done around here. I'm like, that's the worst reason ever. It's the worst reason you could give me.
- [17:36]
Katie Weber
And it sounds like your mom, rather than. I think the. The parental instinct is like, I want Danny to fit in. So why doesn't Danny change? Right? Why don't you just change to be, you know, to fit in, to behave, to do whatever you're supposed to be doing? And it sounded like, you know, one of the great qualities in a parent, I'm now realizing as a parent, is to be like, no, no, no, you're fine. They're wrong. Like, that. That validation has to start at home. And to say, like, of course you're gonna question them makes total sense.
- [18:04]
Danny Donovan
That was like, a really big deal for her because my parents are still, you know, are still pretty religious, and, like, they went to Catholic school all the way through high school. And so to have your fifth grader who's, like, continuously, like, having a bad experience, and to be like, I'm going to, like, give you the choice whether you want to continue doing this or not. And I now, you know, going back, I'm like, that had to be really, you know, for something that was really important to her. And so anyways, I've never talked about this on a podcast, but so this is new breaking news. But I think that it really does go to this, like, compassion of, like, I want my child to thrive and not feel like they're doing something wrong all the time by being who they are.
- [18:43]
Katie Weber
Right? Yeah, totally. And, I mean, if you talk about it in terms of religion, like, Jesus was a pretty badass rebel.
- [18:50]
Danny Donovan
So, like, he was like, be chill and nice to people. I know, right?
- [18:55]
Katie Weber
It's not coming out of nowhere.
- [18:56]
Danny Donovan
It's the main gist. Tldr. Don't be a dick.
- [19:00]
Katie Weber
And don't just, like, follow rules blindly, too, right? Yes.
- [19:04]
Danny Donovan
Yeah. And honestly, if anyone, I'm like, you're teaching me that I shouldn't be questioning authority. I'm sorry. There seems like some so. And that was the big thing for me that got. And even now, you know, religion aside, there were just certain things that, like, I have difficulty, even within myself with things that feel hypocritical. Like, I. Whenever I will purposely, like, end up in situations where I am doing something that hurts me because I'm trying so hard to not be hypocritical. And so there were certain elements of that that I kept kind of, like, finding in place. So I don't know if that's a thing or not. One of the other things that's been interesting for me with ADHD is finding out, like, which things are, like, truly just me and which things can I vocalize? And, like, 95% of people in my audience are like, yes.
- [19:53]
Katie Weber
Oh, I know, right? Well, I always have the question of, like, is this adhd? Or am I an angry feminist living in America right now? That's my big fucking the Lonos dose. Okay. Yeah, I want to get back to that, because I have some thoughts about that. Okay, so fast forward to college. You're a freshman in college. What were some of the signs that tipped you off or what led to you actually finally getting this Official diagnosis?
- [20:17]
Danny Donovan
In 8th grade when I moved to Phoenix, and in my freshman year of college when I moved to Kearney, Both of those times, I had moved to a new school in a new city, and I lost my entire friend group. And I, a friend group who had now, later in life, all have gotten diagnosed with some sort of neurodivergence. But they, like, understood me. I had people who loved me, who understood me. And then I had to start over with a bunch of, like, quote unquote, normal people. And it was. And I love people. I love talking, but you can just see the look on their face when you're talking to them. And it's not, you know, and I'm like, oh, I'm too much, or I'm self conscious, or this is, like, awkward, or you're boring, or, you know, whatever it is. And I was having a hard time making friends. And so both times were the two times in my life that I've been, like, severely, like, severely depressed. And so I went in to talk to someone about depression because freshman year of college, I was like, I have been to this dark, deep, dark place. It is scary and bad, and I do not want to stay here for very long. So I did go and talk to somebody, and she Heard how fast I was talking and, like, how. How quickly I was switching between topics, and then kept apologizing, like, over on top of myself and, like, starting over. And she goes, has anyone talked to you about adhd? And I remember having this moment where I thought to myself, all right, like, I don't want to have ADHD. Like, I'm 19, right? I obviously have updated my belief system, but, like, I don't want to have adhd. Everyone I know who's got ADHD was, like, a boy with no friends, like, ever. Like, that boy with no friends was the. Was the mental model that I had assigned to what those letters meant. And I was like, I don't think that's it. And she, like, handed me a sheet of paper with all the symptoms on it. And I remember being like, oh, no. And she goes, you know, I've got adhd. And my brain just exploded, right? Because I'm like, what? But you're, like, a cool, successful woman, though. And, you know, it really, like, expanded. Like, I like to think I've always been as aware of. Of things, you know, but we evolve. And I remember having that moment of, wow, okay, so this could be, like, a reason why this is all happening then. And so I got meds, which were, like, life changing, but for, like, a long time there, it was just meds. I wasn't doing therapy. I wasn't, like, learning anything about ADHD. And it wasn't until I stumbled across Jessica McCabe's how to ADHD YouTube channel and watching stuff about, like, why, oh, my God, there's a reason why doing laundry is hard. There's a reason why hygiene is hard. There's a reason why getting, you know, the maintenance on my car done is hard. I had only seen ADHD through the lens of, like, work and school. And so that was the first time that it really clicked for me that it's like, this is how I experience the world. And so there sort of was, like, this diagnosis part that stumbled into. And then the, like, second phase of, like, recognizing that it touched everything, you know, it wasn't just something to fix.
- [23:16]
Katie Weber
Yeah, right. Well.
- [23:17]
And I think even whenever I talk
- [23:19]
to women who were diagnosed long before, you know, either in childhood or in college or, you know, more than 10 years ago, I feel like there is this sort of this second wave of understanding of ADHD that came about with social media, and my diagnosis was a pandemic diagnosis. And I think a lot of women, you know, after 2020, the diagnosis skyrocketed, and our understanding and just sharing and interest. But again, I also kind of feel like maybe that's just my point of view, because I came onto the scene and then all of a sudden made it my entire existence and was, like, obsessed and rabbit holing all over the place and. Which has nothing to do with adhd, clearly, but, yes. What? Never, but. So it's always fascinating to me to hear these, like, moments of recognition where it was like, yeah, I was diagnosed, given medication, and sent on my way, and then sort of thought it was this dirty secret or, you know, something that was sort of part of me, but not really. But not really understanding how it affected my life. And then something changed.
- [24:15]
Danny Donovan
One of my talks that I give is. It's called adhd, Bridging the Gap between Clinical Knowledge and Lived Experience. And I talk in there about, you know, my diagnosis story, but that she clocked me from my communication style, because ADHD can clock other ADHDers pretty well. You know, not with 100% accuracy, but if I'm able to follow you, it's like, I can follow you no problem. Right. And I can notice parts of myself that others might find unusual. But for her to notice because of how I speak, you know, we should explore. ADHD was, like, huge. And it's hilarious because my first comic that went viral, like, my first comic I posted that I almost didn't post cause I hadn't told my boss I had adhd. The first one I posted was about storytelling, was about how I tell stories, how other people have, like, the start of story, end of story, and they just blast past all of these, like, unimportant details. And for me, it's like, every detail is important. I can't not leave no stone unturned on the way to the point and, you know, and then apologize afterwards. And so, so many people felt seen to have their experience diagrammed, like something that was invisible, like, made visible and communicated. And that was so fun. But it's just wild that it was like my storytelling was what got me diagnosed, and my storytelling was kind of what kicked off my career.
- [25:33]
Katie Weber
Yeah. Oh, that is really cool. Yeah. I've talked to other ADHD illustrators, too, about what it is about the visual meme that seems to be so central to the way we communicate and understand our experiences. And, yeah, absolutely. There is something just very poignant about these moments in time that explain so much all at once.
- [25:55]
Danny Donovan
Well, my degree's in visual communication and design. And I remember when I started the program, I was like, why didn't they just call it graphic design like everyone else. Why do I have to say this big long thing? And then people look at me weird and then I have to say graphic design. And they go, oh. And I never really understood why we were VCD majors. And now I realize it's like they taught us how to think through metaphor, right? Like how to communicate ideas visually in a way that goes beyond advertising, marketing, graphic design. It is really a like medium through which to communicate. And so being able to. My favorite thing is just to be able to take ideas and, you know, visually communicate them. But being able to do that in like a self reflective way. Being able to go from this period of my life where people were giving me shit all the time for like, oh my God, Danny, you are so annoying. Don't you talk about anything other than yourself to like somehow making a career out of talking about myself. I don't know. I don't know, man. It's funny.
- [26:57]
Katie Weber
Oh my God, I'm so excited to. I'm going to make my daughter listen to this conversation because she's, she's a freshman at Pratt and she's there for illustration. And she always jokes about the fact that the program is called Communications Design. And she's like, how am I ever going to tell people that that's what I do. Nobody's going to have any idea what that is.
- [27:13]
Danny Donovan
Yes. And later in life, I mean, I should probably hit up my college professors and be like, you know what, I'm so glad that you put that the curriculum was put together in such a way that we didn't even get to touch computers until like my second semester, my sophomore year. They're pretty much like, if you can't cut it up to this point, he won't like this program. And so I'm realizing now, and one of my favorite illustrations that I did is a comic that I called like Fitting in. And it was part of like this adhd illustrators and comic artists, like years and years ago did this little challenge where we had like a red envelope that was like our prompt and what are we going to do with that? And I had this little triangle character who went up to these orange. There are a bunch of orange circles and I'm going to do my best to describe this. A bunch of orange circles standing around and triangle goes up to talk to them and they are like, oh my God, what a loser. So annoying. And the triangle tries to then go and like saw off its edges like loud and you know, big and like, and hyper and soft edges and come back and still doesn't. Still doesn't fit in. And then is like crying and a, you know, square comes up that's got band aids all over the sides of it and gives it a band aid, you know, from its little red envelope. And then they meet up with these other shapes that all have also band aids of people who have in the past tried to clearly saw off pieces of themselves to fit in and found. And then they have this little. Yeah, I'm getting goosebumps. I cry. I like cried making it. But it was this thing that's like, you can find your people, but it's not just that you found your people, it's that you found your people and they've got the same scars as you. Yeah, it's that you found your people. And that they have had to learn to love the parts of themselves that they told were unlovable. That they were told were unlovable. And so being able to then connect with the community. And I had, I think, oh my God, so annoying. Was like the only text on that whole comic. And I got to have that fun feeling afterwards of the visual communication of like, this is a Pixar movie. I made a Pixar movie comic with no text, you know, totally.
- [29:11]
Katie Weber
Or it feels like a Leo Leone type, like children's book, you know, like little blue and little yellow guy. Yeah, it feels sort of like that. Which I don't. I feel like he doesn't have any words. Maybe. I don't think. Maybe he has some. I don't know. Anyway. But yeah, what a beautiful image of, you know, not only finding your people, but also finding community in a lot of this stuff that's made us feel so isolated for so long.
- [29:36]
Danny Donovan
Like shared trauma. We have shared trauma, like little T trauma or big tree trauma, whatever it is. But like, if you grew up with people calling you annoying all the time, of course you've got hang ups. Like, of course we've got rejection sensitivity when we are used to feeling ostracized. And so we're like extra sensitive to those types of behaviors from other people. And I don't know what your experience has been, but it took me so long to realize that being in the workplace, how sensitive I was to other people whispering about me because I thought was worried maybe they're talking about me. And I'm like, no, they're probably not. And then I heard them and one time they were. And I. Every time after that, you know, I'm coming into work late even though I know I stay late. My boss is cool that I have like a different, slightly different schedule, but they don't. And I don't have to justify to them, but I can hear them whispering and it's like worrying that people are talking about me and making fun of me or talking shit like was such a difficult thing. And in the workplace, especially with like, again this is completely just my experience. But like often like other women in the workplace, I never really felt like any of my male coworkers were like talking shit about me for like coming in at 9:15 instead of at 8:30, you know, but who knows, maybe they just weren't. If they were, they were much quieter about it. But. And so now one of my other talks I do is about ADHD in the workplace and a lot of it is about how many of us feel bullied because we're, we're easy targets I think for a lot of people to, to point at, especially in on teams and stuff like that. So Anyway, I've got 50 TED talks, so.
- [31:10]
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- [33:12]
Katie Weber
think back on my own childhood, I'm a little grateful for the fact that I felt like I was very clueless a lot of the time to a lot of that stuff socially. Like, as a mom, I see my kids, both of my kids are neurodivergent. Both of my kids are diagnosed with adhd. And I've seen them be rejected over and over again in social situations. You know, having a birthday party, inviting six of their closest friends and then not one of those friends has a birthday party also, you know, like those kind of situations. And so feeling that secondhand rejection from my kids and wanting them to fit in and all of that. But like, looking back at my own life and realizing very similar things happened to me as a child. But like, I don't know if I just didn't care or I didn't notice or I let it wash over me. Like I just sort of was like, I'm just a loner. And so there's part of me as a parent now that feels like maybe they'll be okay, you know, that it's like, it's not always like there is the rejection sensitivity part. But I also think that like, I think focusing on like, what are your priorities, like, like, for instance, like, you don't need a lot of friends. You need one friend, right? And that was always the mentality I took with my kids, was not like, you're popular if you have a ton of people who come to your house or anything like that, it's like, find that one person who gets you.
- [34:23]
Danny Donovan
I'm excited for the youths, for the people who get to grow up in a world where people aren't afraid to say that they have adhd, where they know other people who have adhd. Because this was this thing that was just like quiet and nobody talked about. When I left my last job, I was a graphic designer at Gallup and now I give talks at employee resource group like neurodiversity ergs. And I'm like, neurodivergence was not a word anyone was using in 2018. You know, really, like, this was not a widespread, like, I have ADHD in my Instagram bio, you know, type of thing. And. And I realized as I was making content, but both through. So I like on Twitter and then I had started taking off on like TikTok and finding this community of people where people could stop feeling ashamed because now more people were talking about it. And when more people were talking about it and not being ashamed, then that gave people, I think, permission for them to not feel as ashamed because it's like, well, look at all these other people talking about it. And we found community right where there did not feel like there used to be like an ADHD community before, but now it's sort of when people. People are like, well, people are making diagnoses, their identities. And I go, it's. It's a complete. The perspective, the lens that we have on everything. There is not a single thing that happens to me that does not get through the lens and experience of my own adhd. And so for us to now not feel alone when that is how so many generations before were having to deal with this, if they even knew what it was in the first place. And so, like, but moving, moving forward, I think that we've only got hopefully good things, good things to come.
- [36:04]
Katie Weber
Yeah, right. Or I think in the past, maybe we were all just like, goth was our identity or. Yeah, you know, like, there were other things that were clues that the signs were there all along in terms of like, what your neurodivergence showed up as.
- [36:19]
Danny Donovan
Go check out all the theater kids.
- [36:21]
Katie Weber
Yeah, exactly, right. The gifted underachievers, the gifted kid to adhd pipeline is pretty straight and narrow. So what led you to post that first viral storytelling image?
- [36:36]
Danny Donovan
So I had started at Gallup and I was co. Working with some of my. Co Working with some of my coworkers.
- [36:44]
Katie Weber
As one does.
- [36:45]
Danny Donovan
We had been. Yes, as one does. And we had been joking about how I tell stories. And I said the conductor for my Train of Thought's name is Donnie Danavan, not Danny Donovan. And that he, you know, loves taking people on detours because, like, if he. If he gets you to your destination too fast, then you're gonna be gone. And it's like, I wanna show you everything on the way there. And so the train goes. But the train goes off the rails a lot. And I had the idea that, like, can I map what this, like, looks like? And so I drew, you know, pre story prologue and like, Thing I just remembered five minutes or thing I just remembered happen, like summer related side tangents and, and mapped it out. I sent it to my coworker and she was like, oh my God, this is so you. And I remember being like, oh my God, I know I made it. And I didn't put a watermark on it. Even though I thought about putting a watermark on it, because I thought to myself, how, how big headed am I to think that someone would steal my artwork? Which was so silly now in hindsight, but I wasn't gonna post it on Instagram because my boss followed me there and I hadn't told him I had adhd. And she goes, well, post it on Twitter. You've got like 600 followers. Like, who cares? No one's gonna see it. And so I posted it and then Aaron Brooke, who has a pretty big ADHD audience, like, retweeted it and it just completely took off. And from there, you know, I had that immediate reaction of how many people felt seen and how many people were like crying seeing their experience map like that. And so then I got to pretty much turn it into this big like almost public art therapy exhibit of like, here are all of my different, my experiences. And some of them are comics, but so many of them are infographics. And I do think that was partially because I was working at Gallup and so I was doing data viz all day. But because they are like universally readable, like if you, it doesn't matter where you live, you can probably read a pie chart, you know, you can read a bar chart, you can read a flow chart. And so that's one of the reasons why my comics have actually been translated into like 17 different languages, which is pretty cool. Including like Arabic, which they have to like some of these, they have to like flip them backwards to be able to make them read. But the experience of interacting with it, of going through these flowcharts and infographics, like, being able to be understandable across cultures, across languages, because again, it's really easy to feel like, oh, we need to talk about ADHD more. I'm like, can you imagine living in some other countries and having people not even think ADHD is real? So it's been pretty wild.
- [39:11]
Katie Weber
Yeah. And not only that, but then, like, to tap into these universal experiences internationally, I think is so powerful too, to realize, yeah, like you said, like, the rates of ADHD diagnoses are so much higher in certain countries. Not necessarily because we all live here. It's, you know, it's all about like, what is recognized and what is considered, you know, a trait as opposed to a flaw.
- [39:34]
Danny Donovan
Right. And how many people I hear from from, like, all. Like, it's all over the world, but also, like, age spectrums. Like, I've had people. I had someone who was, I think, 84, who was like, I know that to some extent, it's like, what's the point? Like, I got the email, and she was like, I did see stuff, and I related. And I thought to myself, like, what's. Is there a point. Is there a point to getting diagnosed this late? And she was like, I just want to know. Like, I just want to know if there's a whole reason. And then she emailed back or had emailed me and said that she did get diagnosed and that she was so glad that I was doing the kind of work that I did so that little girls like her didn't have to work, grow up wondering what was wrong with them. I'm gonna cry.
- [40:13]
Katie Weber
I know. That is so sweet.
- [40:14]
Danny Donovan
But for a lot of people to find out that, like, you know, or there's people who are like, I'm 42. It's too late for me. I'm like, how old do you think you are? Like, you got a lot of living left to do, man. But so many people. It's like people have developed so many coping skills because they've been just, like, white knuckling it through life up to this point, like, trying to hold on, trying not to get fired, trying to keep their families, you know, afloat. And trying, trying, trying, trying. And they don't realize that, like, it's not supposed to be this hard. Like, just because you're doing it doesn't mean that you're having the same experience as somebody else. And so for people, when I talk to my, you know, parents about this, that, like, if just because you can't see how heavy anybody else's backpack is and your backpack being heavier than others, just because you can carry it doesn't mean that it's the same weight as other people's. It just means that you had to build a lot more muscle. You had to get stronger. Like, you had to become stronger in order to deal with what you were given.
- [41:11]
Katie Weber
Oh, I like that image. Yeah. Right. And I think also, like, well, I think you're treading water so much often before a diagnosis that, like, we don't really have a lot of time to stop and think about how much we are struggling or even what that struggle looks like, you know? And. And so I think a Lot of the time, a diagnosis can help. Just take that lay of the land and be like, oh, my goodness, this isn't how it's supposed to be. Right? Or, this isn't like, there is another way. And I think that's why at any age, you know, it always. And it. It breaks my heart too, when women say that they went to their doctor and their doctor was like, yeah, no, that. That can't be it. Or even, you know, I would always say, like, if you are afraid that you are going to fool the doctor somehow or that the test is going to be wrong, I'm like, that's usually a good sign. You're on the right track.
- [42:01]
Danny Donovan
Yes. Or if you've been procrastinating, making the appointment, there's all of these little, like, unofficial things that's like, if you're worried that they're gonna tell you that you're just lazy, you know, and. And. And so many other kind of things that people who are so worried that they're like, what if I go in and it turns out I am just lazy? And it's like, even if you don't get an ADHD diagnosis, a, you could. There are professionals who. You might have adhd, and they just. Just don't know enough about it or the way that you were presenting, like, didn't line up with how they were going to do it. And that's, like you said, like, it sucks. If there are people who go in to talk to someone, they finally get themselves over that hurdle, and that person isn't, like, the most qualified to be able to tell, and you change the entire course of that person's life, like, whether or not they believe you, they get another appointment or they go the rest of their life thinking they don't have it, and they don't, you know, maybe don't get that help. And so it's the difference that it can make besides just getting meds. Like, there's a lot of people, I think, who think, oh, if I get an ADHD diagnosis, it means I have to, you know, have to start medicines. Like, those meds are amazing for some people. Like, they. I cannot function without. But like, other. I know a lot of people who can and who just. But having the closure of. There is a reason. There is a reason why this. Why I feel this way. There is a reason why I'm struggling with this stuff. And I think for me and a lot of other people and during the pandemic, which is. You said you got diagnosed in 2020, so many of us lost our entire structure that held our days together because now everyone's at home. And so suddenly I think that that was a huge reason for things just bottoming out, where it's like, oh, I have to get stuff at home and no one's. I don't have someone who's gonna walk past my desk and know if I've got social media up over on the side. I don't have that same level of accountability of, like, necessarily showing up at the right time. Like, there's certain things that, like, working from home is amazing, but the leniency aspect of some of the things can make it more challenging to do when you are used to having external accountability.
- [44:04]
Katie Weber
Oh, yeah, 100%, totally. Yeah. That was my experience. And I was talking to my therapist about how, like, my kids are home, they're asking me to feed them, and I'm like, I just fed you. And they're always running out of the room and they're just like, like, oh, my God, I can't get on zoom. And oh, my God, the WI fi's out. And like, they were just interrupting me all the time and I was complaining about the fact that I couldn't focus. And also I was trying to start a brand new business. Now I look at it because, you know, that's what we did in 2020. And so now looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah. But I. I have said before on this podcast, like, when she suggested adhd, I immediately was insulted. I was sort of like, really? You think I'm a hot mess. I'm so well put together. And I mean, I was a hobbit, you know, but there was this feeling of like, I had somehow betrayed this version of myself that I was showing everybody and that she saw through it in a way, and she was my freaking therapist. Of course she's gonna see through it. That's her job. But, like, at the time, I just remember this panic of like, oh, God, is am I not coping as much as I thought? Right to my therapist.
- [45:04]
Danny Donovan
Oh, my God. Well, and there's such a there. I think that that's one of the things that I've loved so much about where things have gone as far as, again, like adhd. Social media just like, hits different because it's the part that's not just. It's like, oh, my God, it's so relatable. So I don't feel alone, which is great, but it's like, I have permission to be myself. And I think so many of us felt this, like, resistance to let our freak flag fly, but to be able to. No, it's okay that I'm not put together. Like, I'm doing my. We're all just out here doing our best and ADHD or not. That's true. And I'm thinking that there are a lot of people out there who like me. I was good in school and I for the most part was like great at my job because I've known I wanted to be a graphic designer since I found out what graphic design was in like seventh grade. And I just like picked it like mine, which completely unlike me in pretty much any aspect. But I knew I wanted to do art my whole life. I found out what design was, was like, wait, there are people who get paid to make the billboards for the zoo, you know, and there are people who get to like design this logo that's on my, you know, pop cam. Like, it was just wild. And I picked that and sort of like ran with it. But because I loved it and I loved it in school and I loved it for work. It was really, it's really easy for me to focus when I love something, when I don't love something like chores, or when I don't love something like doing my taxes, Then it's like it is completely like pulling teeth, arguing and bargaining with like the six year old who lives in my brain. So that's why one of the reasons why I made the anti planner was pretty much to stop the internal bargaining quite as much.
- [46:47]
Katie Weber
So basically, like what I feel like there's this intersection of like the ADHD space, the, you know, disability space and being a woman where things are said to you where they would never be said to a man in terms of like justifying why you're, you're charging some, Anything. Right. I feel like I see this in like the therapy space too. Like it's unethical for a therapist to want to charge more than a dollar to be somebody's therapist. Like, they don't. Nobody ever thinks about all of the expertise and just your right to an income. There's something in this space that feels like people have the right to demand that you justify any, any price that you're putting on something.
- [47:29]
Danny Donovan
Yeah, I think that there's definitely that, like I say tendency and you can't say, say for sure. But there is like a level of criticism that I think that we do face especially. And this isn't just about like having a, you know, having a product. There's so much that comes with like the types of content that we're making and. And feeling like a quote, unquote, like, bad woman for. For struggling with things that are, like, domestic, like, tasks, right? Like, oh, I'm. I have a hard time with cleaning. I have a hard time with hygiene. I have a hard time with this and this and this. And they're things that, like, as a woman that I'm expected to be, like, good at those things. And so being able to, like, criticize a woman for having a, you know, messy. A video about her messy house in a way that, like, they might not do the same exact way if it was, you know, if it was a guy, like, having this idea of, I want to charge my worth because I know how much time, like, I have had so many people who are like, you could have charged so much more money for this.
- [48:26]
Katie Weber
Yeah, like, you should.
- [48:27]
Danny Donovan
You are under. You are undercharging. But. But it's one where, like, I feel this deep need to, like, apologize that I have been trained into. They're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. Am I being too much? Am I being too big? Am I. I should shrink myself and make myself more palatable? And I think that there's. And then having to, like, stand your ground and be like, no, no, no, I deserve to be here. I deserve to make money. And there's like, the idea. There's like this TikTok sound from forever ago that I just love. There's just like, this girl goes, how. I just thought to myself, how hard can it be? Boys do it.
- [49:03]
Katie Weber
Oh, yeah.
- [49:04]
Danny Donovan
And I. I think to myself that I think that all, you know, so frequently and so being able to kind of separate that and one. One other thing I wanted to mention was that I think there's a reason beyond just the fact that so many of us were late diagnosed, but that so much of what has created community in the ADHD sphere has been women. Women talking about their experiences, women talking about their feelings, women talking about, you know, getting diagnosed, women being open and honest and vulnerable. When I think off the top of my head, especially early on, I've got a picture actually at the back of the anti planner of the ADHD crew who, like, kind of helped make this neurodiverse squad. But, like, especially at the beginning, it was a bunch of us, like, girls, we were like, I have. Our little group text is called, like, ADHD girl gang. And, you know, being able to connect with women so early on who are also running their own businesses, who are also fighting the same misogynistic comments you Know, who are also fighting a lot of their own battles with feeling, like, not feminine for not living up to this society's expectation of what it means to be a woman.
- [50:14]
Katie Weber
Totally right. And I think, you know, when I think back about this swell of diagnoses that happened post pandemic too, like, I think of it like a movement of women similar to suffragettes or, you know, the MeToo movement, where there was a swell of women who were like, I'm at my breaking point. I can't take this anymore. And on the one hand, it's been incredibly wonderful in terms and validating in terms of community. On the other hand, it's an individual diagnosis that makes it, like, continues to keep the focus on the individual problem. Right. Which is like, oh, now I'm just. Now I've been diagnosed with a disorder. And while many of us, we don't look at it as a disorder necessarily, while they're, you know, I probably could go on for hours about whether it is or isn't, but, like, certainly not a superpower. But I think that it's like, rather than looking at, you know, it would have been nice if the next wave of this swell of women coming together and saying, I'm not going to take it anymore is like, let's look at the systemic issues that are causing so many of us to struggle to the point where we need an actual medical diagnosis. Right. And that, you know, maybe it's not an individual problem. It never was. But, yeah, I do think that, like, in order for any kind of change to happen in medical change for women, over the course of centuries now, it's been these, like, like, huge swells of women coming together in community and saying, like, you know, we're not going to take it anymore.
- [51:37]
Danny Donovan
I absolutely agree. And I. This is bringing up, like, a lot of emotions for me because I remember, like, when I first started out, and I'm like, I want to make. I mean, don't get me wrong, like, I want to make money. I want to make money because. Not just because it's like, I want to have a cool, you know, house and go on vacation. Like, that stuff would be great. But, like, I want to have the type of money where I can fund independent research. I want to fund studies that they should be doing that no one is doing. I want to be able to take a lot of the stuff that's been, like, under. Yeah, again, under researched because it's about women's experiences and how women feel about things and communities of color and people who aren't getting that representation. We know that so much research is just done on, like, especially, like, white boys with adhd. And don't, don't get me wrong, I love me white boy. I got a white boy husband, a white boy stepson. I love them very much. And they have ADHD and they deserve help also. Like, but it's one where if you're not represented in research, then you're going to have doctors who continue to have outdated views. You know, you're going to have education systems that are teaching people that, you know, things that, that aren't there. And I said aren't there, but might not be accurate. And so I'm really hoping that there's going to be an opportunity to invest in the research we want to see, you know, done in the world. And for more and more practitioners to be able to recognize is what ADHD can look like from lived experience in ways that they might have otherwise automatically defaulted to, like mood disorders or anxiety.
- [53:05]
Katie Weber
Yes. Oh, my God.
- [53:07]
Danny Donovan
Like, which I have those too.
- [53:08]
Katie Weber
But, but just talking about the, like, justice and fairness and be like, what would you do with a million dollars? You. Like, I would fund research. It's like the nerdiest, most neurodivergent thing to say, but it's so true. And, you know, and I think that coming back to this idea of, like, cost and making money, I mean, you know, I feel confident that I put out a lot of free content and, like, I want to make sure that I meet people wherever they are in terms of price points and stuff. And what does Andrew Huberman calls it, like, zero cost information. So he has, like, the broiest term for it. It always makes me laugh. He's like, I want to ensure zero cost information. Like, just say free stuff, dude. What are you talking about? Anyway? But, like, that kind of helps me feel like I've covered my bases in terms of accessibility. And then I think about my business coach who would always say, like, raise your rates. You owe it to all women to raise your rates. You're doing a disservice to other women if you under sell yourself and your value. And so her voice always, like, echoes in my head when I'm like, I don't know, is this gonna, are people gonna be mad at me if I charge this one or charge this much so that I'm like, I owe it to all women everywhere.
- [54:15]
Danny Donovan
Yes. I have to set an example. My ADHD coach, Dusty Jabura, she was like, I had a, a, it was an illustration gig. And I was like, this is A big thing I've never worked. It was for book illustrations. I'm like, I don't fully know what to charge for this. And I'm like, I think I'm gonna do this. And she goes, what's the scary number? Ask for the scary number. And I said it. I was like, okay, this is for, you know, this. And I, like, said what it was. And she was like, yeah, you should ask for that. I'm like, what. What's the worst they're gonna say no? And it's like, if they say no, then you can, like, walk it back from there. But I said it, and they said, yeah. If they say yes, instantly, it's usually an indication that you could have asked for me more. More money.
- [54:53]
Katie Weber
I know. I hate that. Yeah.
- [54:55]
Danny Donovan
But it pretty much was like, don't ever put it in a situation where you say they accept your first offer. But thinking through it in the lens of, like, I forget that other people just, like, have money. Like, I. When you've come from a. From a. Depending on the client. Again, not everybody, but depending on who you're working with, especially if it's, like, with a business. This was for. I. I had a. This was for a pharma company, and I felt very. I had conflicting feelings about, like, oh, I'm working with pharma, but, you know, this company that had an ADHD med coming out, and it was like, it's an adhd, like, booklet for kids on what ADHD can look like in young girls and why it doesn't get. Get picked up. It wasn't about meds. It was literally just about, like, here's what ADHD looked like for me as, like, a little girl, and I go, I'll. I'll draw that. Like, I'll draw that. But being able to go in and, like, ask for. For things, especially when it's outside your wheelhouse of anything you've charged for before can be. Can be challenging. So it was the same thing with the anti planner. I'm like, I don't know what to charge for this. I know how much money it costs to make kind of, hopefully nothing goes wrong. And as things have kind of scaled, it's been. It's been wild. But I. I am all for people being able to kind of, like, step into their power and realize, like, I have to do this because it will be meaningful for me and I will be able to, like, help maybe coach other. Other women. Like, when I worked in past workplaces, I really enjoyed, you know, I was like, you're not supposed to talk about your wage. And I was like all everyone here should be making more money. Everybody. How Jose, how much money are you making? How much money are you making? But like I would they they'd mentioned it and I was like, I am making this and you have been here longer than me and you are just as talented as me. And so we had a big group of people who went and all asked for raises and I was told that I wasn't they were like, you're not supposed to like don't talk to your co workers about about your wage. I'm like, that's illegal. You like straight up can't tell me that. But okay, so we we love women
- [56:46]
Katie Weber
Supporting Women hey friends, before we get
- [56:49]
started, I wanted to tell you about something I've been using lately that has made such a meaningful difference in how I plan my days and follow through on my goals. It's called Focus Space. Focus Space pairs a simple, intuitive goal setting app with a huge menu of community co working sessions. They have over 100 hundred to choose from every week and they're all led by warm, dedicated hosts who gently cheer you on in whatever you have to do that day. I love the app. It has a brain dump feature where I can write down everything I want to do whenever I think about it so nothing falls through the cracks. Then in one of the daily wake up sessions, I can sort through that list. I can choose what's actually reasonable to accomplish that day and then I map out all of my next steps from there. I pop into a community session whenever I'm ready and I get some accountability. I stay stay focused while body doubling with other people and then I can slip out when I'm done. Focus Space was built for brains like ours and I am so glad they exist. The women and ADHD coaches have all been using it too and we are all raving about how helpful it's been for organizing our days and feeling more productive. Right now, Focus Space is offering women and ADHD listeners a fantastic deal. You can try it for free for 14 days and get 20% off of your subscription when you use the code WomenHouse. With that discount, it works out to be only about $2 a week, which is money well spent if you ask me. So if you're craving a little more structure in your day and a really warm and friendly space to get your work done, head to get focused space WomenADHD and grab your 20% discount today. Again, that's get focused space, slash WomenADHD and make sure to use the code WomenADHD at checkout. You'll be glad you did. And hey, you'll probably see me in one of the sessions.
- [58:25]
Yeah. Okay. So your illustrations and graphics are taking off and you get to the point where you have enough support through Patreon that you can leave your full time job at Gallup. Right. And so you become a full time influencer. I don't know if you like that term or hate that term.
- [58:44]
Danny Donovan
I actually don't. I said that in my, that was in my talk name. But I'm like, influencing influencers are sort of like, like, I get paid to, like, influence people into, like, buying other people's products versus, like, a creator. Even, like, content creator. Like Bo Burnham saying, like content. And I'm like, but a ADHD creator, you know, and communicator is probably more accurate.
- [59:04]
Katie Weber
All right, all right, Okay. I like that. Sorry. Because I hate that term influencer too. And it always feels like there's some, some baggage there.
- [59:12]
Danny Donovan
But as soon as I said it during the other thing and then you said, I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have said that. Why did I say it? But yeah, I, I, I pretty much, I, like, honestly steer clear. And most of the people I know in the, like, ADHD sphere are not, like, what I would call ADHD influencers either. Like, all of them pretty much make original content.
- [59:32]
Katie Weber
Well, and that's kind of some. Okay, I want to get to that too. But I'm like, trying to keep myself on some sort of straight and arrow here with your timeline. But, like, I have so many thoughts about this too, in terms of the antiplanner. But. So at this point, you are fully like, like, funded by content creation. What sparked the idea to create the Anti Planner?
- [59:52]
Danny Donovan
So what was pretty funny was my last day at Gallup was February 28, 2020.
- [59:58]
Katie Weber
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [60:00]
Danny Donovan
March 2020 was when I was like, I'm gonna go out on my own. It's gonna be great. And like, two weeks later, the world was like, just kidding. And I was freaking out because I had just left my, like, very, very steady job with a team and a boss that I really liked, and I was making more money than I was making on Patreon. And so I was so freaked out. Like, what did I just do? What did I just do? But then I also knew, I'm like, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. And maybe it's a good thing because I would have been too afraid to jump. I would have been too afraid you know, to leave with the uncertainty. And so I just really kind of like leaned into it was making adhd Comics and TikToks, and I started working for myself and realized that everything that isn't fun is so hard. Like, it's so hard. And I now have to go and open a business bank account and I have to go do all this, like, dumb stuff that I don't want to do. And I wasn't managing my time very well. And so I thought to myself, well, I'll make like an ADHD friendly planner. What does that look like? Oh, it'll be like kind of like a bullet journal, kind of like this, you know, and it'll have funny lettering. And so I was working on it. And in the meantime, my business coach had told me to keep like a field guide for my business, essentially, like documenting out, like, things that have realizations I'm having, things that I'm learning, journaling, kind of like activities. And I made a thing called my excuse list where I would write out, like, I had a little X and I would put I don't have the time and then the check mark next to it. I'd be like, I'm choosing to not make time. And it would be like, I don't know how. And it's like, I am a capable adult who knows how to Google things. Things, you know, and like, I, I would put pretty much all of the reasons why I wasn't working on my comics into this list. And then I started making like theme weeks where I said, okay, well, this is going to be finance week. And I make this cute, cute, like pretty illustrated header. And I would say, I'm going to do 10 things this week related to finance. And after I do them, I will write them down and check them off. Because at the end of the day, like week, all I need are 10 things related to finance, even if one of those things is checked by Wells Fargo account, you know, and, and I can check it off. And so I started doing theme weeks and then doing all this stuff to like, work on the planner. And then I realized over time I kind of like looked at my field guide and I go, this has, I'm using this to get stuff done. I'm not using the planner, like, to get stuff done. I'm, I'm using this weird little like, collection of strategies that I've like, cobbled together to make myself work on the planner. This is the, this is the money right here. This is the goal, this is the thing that I need. So therefore, it's probably something other people need. And so I put the idea of making a planner like completely to the side and decided like, I want to make something that was like organically already starting to grow because I had, I had tutorials I had made on how I tricked my brain into doing things that had gone viral on TikTok. So I went through my TikTok and grabbed a bunch of those things of like, how have I been telling other people that I do this? And using those graphics, using those illustrations, really kind of leaning in hard to the idea that like I, rather than having one tool in my toolbox and hoping that everything requires a hammer, you know, how do I actually develop that toolbox? Because I think a lot of people say you need to develop a toolbox, you need to work with your brain and not against it. Like we. Those are really great and they're very true. But they can also become things that I think we hear so frequently that we sort of like forget maybe what that means in practice. And what I realized through the book was, which is organized by emotion that's like making it difficult to get stuff done. Like, oh, maybe you're overwhelmed or maybe you're perfectionistic and realizing that those are mental resistances and that those resistances require different tools. And the way that like a screwdriver that like the motion that you need and the tool that you need to get a screw into the wall is different than the motion and the tool that you need to get a nail into the wall. And we're often trying to solve the same, we're different resistances with the same tool over and over again. And so to have one thing that's like, what if your system is that you've got 100 systems. Sorry, that was like a billion year answer. But I do, I am the ADHD storytelling lady. So I feel a little bit less bad about it.
- [64:13]
Katie Weber
Well, it doesn't come out of nowhere. I mean, I think there is this like self help culture that a lot of people with adhd, myself included, before my diagnosis, I was would, you know, very much fell for the sales pitch of like, I've got this thing that's going to solve all of your problems and it's only going to be revealed to you on the last page of this book. So, you know, buy this book. And I read so many of them and what do you know, they didn't solve all of my problems. But I think that there is this notion, right, that like I'm going to find that one thing that is going to Solve everything and we hold out for it. And instead of looking at our weird cobbled together system that we actually are working and looking at it and thinking that is working for us to a degree and being like, okay, what is it about this system that is working for me? And getting more curious about the fact that it's like maybe I already do have something in place, even if it looks weird, and that I'm not going to keep looking elsewhere for something that's going to save me.
- [65:07]
Danny Donovan
I think that so many of us, in searching for that silver bullet, right, we do find things that work for us, but they only work for a period of time and then we drop them and then we forget about them and then they're just like dead forever. And I think for the anti Planner, one of the things that I loved was being able to be like, I can't forget about my techniques that work. When something stops working, it's fine, I can like leave it and maybe a year later I'll like bust it back out again. And one of the best examples I have for this of one that I did not forget about and did use for years was I found out from my, my husband works in tech and so he had been kind of talking to me a little bit about like Scrum and then he introduced me to the concept of a Kanban board and having a column for like to DOS in progress or I've got like post it notes and to do column in progress column on hold or like waiting and then done. And you write all your post it notes and you move them from to do over so to in progress to you know, done. And a. The physicality of it was great. But we were getting married and so I did one, I said, well, I'm going to have, have to lean into gender stereotypes here. But like I had pink post it notes that were, these are Danny tasks, blue ones that were, these are Josh tasks. And then like orange or green or something that was like, this could be either of us or both of us. And I would put little like codes at the, you know, little icons at the bottom for if things were like purchase, you know, this is, I need to buy this, I need to buy this. And I would, I move stuff around and I had it on a, on the wall behind our couch. And so I couldn't forget about it. It was like I was unignorable. I couldn't minimize it. It wasn't something, a list, a digital to do list that I kept forgetting about. It was right in front of my face. I saw it every time I walked in the house. And that worked for our wedding. And then I go, I'm gonna use this for the rest of my life. And then it fell apart. And then I had a big project where I was working on the Working from Home Animation with Jessica McCabe for the how to ADHD video. And I made a big Kanban board for that project. And then I like try to start using it again for my life and then it would slowly fall apart. And then, and I realized I'm like, this is a system that works for me under certain conditions and I can't use it forever. The place where I fail is where I am expecting myself to stay consistent with this forever and ever and ever, even though I know that's not how I operate. So with the anti planner, my whole idea behind it was like, what if I could give people permission to keep quitting things? Because you're not quitting things. You're experimenting and you're seeing what works and what doesn't and what works under certain conditions and what doesn't and what you might be able to mix together and combo into a new thing even though you've technically done A and B, when you put them together and make it a B, it hits different. And so like getting that little hit of novelty, getting that permission to be imperfect, but to look at things as experiments so that we can remove ourselves from that self judgment, I think that comes from whether or not things quote unquote work out versus, you know, it being data of like, oh, I tried this, it didn't work. Was it? Do I, how badly do I want this to work? Do I want to like analyze why, you know, oh, it failed because of this. Like what are the failure points or what are the friction points? I can remove that and try it again or I could ditch this and try something else. And teaching people how to like I would say, experiment on themselves and get better at noticing what is making this fail. Like, where is the failure point in this system? Do I want to address that? And that really is so much fun. My dad's an engineer and so I get a lot of excitement out of figuring out where are the friction points or where are the failure points and then solving for those.
- [68:42]
Katie Weber
I love all of it. And just even too this notion of separating the emotional experience and the emotional reaction to the barrier, which is like, yes, this is what barrier am I experiencing right now? What are my options? And so like getting into that strategic mindset I think can be so helpful, but also recognizing that like there's an emotional component of guilt or shame or whatever is holding me back right now. So let's like deconstruct that and talk, you know, and realize that this is something that's going to happen and just be okay with it. And so then like, the next time I'm having a day where I'm lying on the couch, I'm going to be like, oh, this is a day where I'm lying on the couch. Woo hoo. I'm probably going to be productive tomorrow as opposed to in the past where I would have been like, what's wrong with me? I can't believe I can't get off the couch. There's so much I need to do and blah, blah, blah. And I ruined a perfectly good couch day.
- [69:29]
Danny Donovan
I found out that how did somebody. Okay a. Let me just say I am currently in couch mode. And because I, I did back to back, like, do not do this. This is not me. This is not a brag. This is, this is a bad. Danny, you shouldn't do this. But it's been years since I did. I, I did two like hundred hour weeks back to back recently because I was really excited. I've been like playing around with like prototyping an app for the Anti planner. But I, I got, you know, into it really, really excited and it's like, I'm not tired. I want to stay up all night and like work on this. And then I, oh no, now it's the next week and I can't open an email. I can't get myself to answer one email. When last week I was like, like pedal to the metal because I burned through all of my fuel. And now this week I want to like beat myself up because it's like, I know I'm capable of that. Look at how I did. Look at, why can't I be that just forever? And the reality is somebody said that like our 100% is other people's 300%. And so like, of course we can't be 100% all the time because it's actually asking us to be like 300% all the time. And it kind of goes along with this thing. I realized that was like, I either get 30 minutes worth of work done in eight hours or eight hours worth of work done in 30 minutes.
- [70:45]
Katie Weber
Nice. Right?
- [70:47]
Danny Donovan
Those are my only two options.
- [70:48]
Katie Weber
Okay, so here we are. So the anti Planner is like, like, I would call it like a choose your own adventure.
- [70:53]
Right?
- [70:53]
Where. So you decided like, you know, where. What am I struggling with? So You've got stuck, overwhelmed, unmotivated, disorganized, discouraged. How did you come up with those five categories?
- [71:04]
Danny Donovan
So I did not start out with an idea of what this book was gonna be. And I think that that's why it turned out like as cool as it did was because I didn't make a plan in the way that I don't have five year goals. Right? Like I did not set out with a plan. And then I sat down and I implemented every part of the plan and then I made the plan work and woo, I did the plan. No, I decided like I said I was going to make a planner, kind of pivoted, said I'm going to make a collection of activities and strategies and games brain, dumped a bunch of ideas and then saw, okay, cool, I've got over 100 things here. This is overwhelming. This is going to be way too hard for anybody, myself included. Like I'm making this for me. If it doesn't work for me, I don't know how I can expect this to work for someone else. And I need to figure out how to navigate this so that when I need to get something done, I don't procrastinate for two hours reading through the whole book and trying to find something that sounds fun. I need to have my options limited. I need to know what's going to be relevant. Like I don't want to waste time looking through stuff that's not going to help me. How do I collect this, how do I organize this user experience wise? And so I brainstormed on note cards a bunch of different reasons why I don't, don't do stuff even when I know I need to. And so they were a bunch of emotions. So I had, you know, I'm tired, I'm bored, I'm resentful that I even have to do this. Like I am feeling like not unco. Insecure about it or I'm intimidated, I'm perfectionistic. And I had all of these different things. Like I think I had probably like 30 ish, like 30, 35 different like emotions with little cartoon guys next to them. And then I push, started pushing stuff together. I go, what essentially means the same thing. And so I sort of condensed it into, okay, these words that are here now, none of these mean the same thing. And then I looked at it and go, cool, well I've got 16, I've got 16 emotions here. That's still too many tabs. I knew I wanted to do tabs because I'm a sucker for tabs. And I'm like, that's 16 is still too many words to have someone flip through and try to figure out which of these 16 are you feeling. And so I went, I wonder if there's a way to like organize these to where I can reduce that friction even more. And then realizing that actually many of these fell under sort of like umbrella traits for executive dysfunction. So like stuck, has difficulty getting started, indecisive, perfectionistic and distracted, which are all essentially like self sabotaging behaviors and like inertia problems and versus like overwhelm, which I think I've got like intimidated. I don't know why I think I have this whole thing intimidated, over, committed, panicked and burnt out. But they're all capacity issues. That's like the demand is more than my capacity currently has. I'm pouring water into a cup that's already full and you know, and then we've got motivated. And so I kind of did that same thing where I had essentially the feelings wheel of like, there's different types of angry, you know, there's like, oh, I feel betrayed or oh, I feel disrespected or you know, like those are technically different things. And so I sort of did that with executive dysfunction. I look back, I go, I made an emotion spiel for adhd. And then I organized the activities based on what one of those things they helped with the most. But the issue I kept running into was, oh, well, this helps with one of the things is lacking accountability. And one of them is like difficulty prioritizing. This activity I'm working on fits in both. Initially I was going to print it in both sections, but that felt kind of like janky. And so what I ended up doing was cross referencing it. So at the beginning of all the sections, it's here are the specific activities and games and strategies that go with this section. And then there's you might also like. And it points you at all of the different activities that are in other sections that also help with this problem. And so I'm essentially like algorithm recommending you, you know, things that sort of like translate between or like at the bottom where it says this pairs well with this. And somebody told me they go, how did you make a website into a book? I go, well, it's funny because there's no website, but I think from a, from a user perspective that's, that's really how people are able to then navigate it. Where it's like, this is a troubleshooting guide. You come up and you say, I've got this Thing I'm trying to work on. Why is it hard? Um, is it. And I only have to pick between five. I have to pick, you know, stuck, overwhelmed and unmotivated, disorganized, discouraged. I say, I'm feeling unmotivated. Flip to that tab. And then you can read. You can read those, like, I statements that are like, you know, I have a hard time doing this if nobody's going to know if I don't. You know, I have a. I don't feel like doing this. This, I hate doing this. This sucks. I. And reading those I statements and seeing if you relate versus just reading a word, there's like an image, a cartoon with all of them and then the I statements. Because I have found through my comics that what people want to do is to recognize themselves. They don't. They can't often just like, unless they've had a lot of therapy also to be able to necessarily get in touch with those emotions. But if you read the thought process, you can go, oh, that's what I'm thinking. And that hopefully can help people.
- [76:04]
Katie Weber
Well. And oftentimes when you are in a state of overwhelm or lack of motivation, you're not always going to be in a place to know how you're feeling. And I think that that's something where it's like, having this encyclopedia of options is so. Okay. This is my pet peeve about the antiplanner. There's so much in this book. It's so beautiful. There are so many helpful tips and you so vastly over deliver. Yes, some. You know, and then I go onto your TikTok and you're defending the price of this thing yet again for some schmuck out there who has said, like, I can't believe you're charging $50 for this.
- [76:49]
Danny Donovan
You hate poor people. Yeah, right.
- [76:52]
Katie Weber
Which makes me so angry because I feel like this is such an invaluable resource. And also, would somebody say that to a man ever? No. They would be like, thanks, dude, you're my guru. So I'm like, is this a uniquely woman with ADHD experience of this notion that there are, like, people out there who just will always just be like, I want stuff for free. I don't know. I just feel like it is such an incredible piece of. Of artwork that you should never have to spend a minute defending how much time, effort and expertise, artistic and just lived experience and all of the expertise you've put into this. You should never have to spend a moment justifying it to anybody.
- [77:34]
Danny Donovan
I appreciate that. The way That I approached that comment. I did have somebody who was like, do you hate poor people? And I remember seeing that and it looks like stung a little bit at first, but then I'm like, I know I don't. So this doesn't, you know, this is like if you're 7ft tall and someone calls you short, you know, you're, you're not like, oh my God, my feelings are so hurt. It's like this isn't true, what's the matter with you? But I saw that and I go, you're mad at whoever, like at your company that you work for, like whoever pays you does not pay you enough money. That is not me. That is like that is a bigger problem than, than me. If you made more money, you would probably not be saying this right. And that is not necessarily like your fault. That is just the situation that we're in that there, this is, it's $58 at full price. Um, and because it took again like I don't have to justify it when I'm like It took like 3,000 hours. But I, I, I took the opportunity to explain to that person and my best, you know, like level tone of like it's totally understandable to be confused about why this costs so much. I'm going to tell you why it costs so much. And then you know, went into the like here's how long it took. But also people think I went through a publisher. There are a lot of people who don't know that I wrote Design, illustrated and self published and now run the company that, that manages fulfillment and customer service and all of this stuff that comes along with like developing a product and I am then got to talk about all of this stuff kind of on the back end. So people got to see the back end of what E commerce actually costs and they go, oh, I didn't think about the fact that you've got to pay someone to do your international sales taxes. You know, like that that's gotta be baked into the price and that. But that informational thing went viral like it was my first viral TikTok about the anti planner. I sold a ton of books and I reached out to that person and I said, hey, what's your address? I am going to send you, I will send you one. And you know, some people are like, oh, you don't need to do that. I go, this person just made me so much money not just because of that but like I do try to, to understand, I would say where people are coming from and that we are not well versed in why things that are made by creators cost as much as they do. Because people are so used to cheap stuff. People are used to Alibaba prices, people are used to Walmart prices, people are used to mass manufactured stuff. But then when they get it and they go, oh, this is such high quality, I go, yeah, because I'm tired of getting cheap shit. Like, I'm tired of stuff that I don't use because I know that it doesn't feel great to like hold versus telling someone, I got this with the thickest paper possible. Because there's nothing I hate worse than like, you know, my markers bleeding through to another page. And so I really wanted to make sure it was like worth it for, for people. It would. And then people ripped it off and I have a bunch of counterfeiters that, that, you know, scan the whole thing and it's got see through pages and typos all over the place, which is my nightmare. But then I made a video explaining that and that went viral too. So I've really kind of leaned into, you know, bad things happening. If you can talk to people honestly about what's going on, you know, the Internet's a supportive place.
- [80:34]
Katie Weber
Well, and I, you know, I think it's sort of similar to this whole AI irritation too, where it's like I keep seeing these AI ads on my algorithm that are like, I was I to think I was going to pay hundreds of dollars for a photographer when I can just get AI to do my headshots for me and I'm like, or you could fucking pay a photographer.
- [80:53]
Danny Donovan
Yeah.
- [80:54]
Katie Weber
Like, why is just this idea of paying people for their craft just seems to be something that I could probably go on and on about.
- [81:03]
Danny Donovan
But I have a whole thing about how so much of the reason why people are like, I'm doing this with AI because I can't afford this is because people don't have, we don't have enough money that we are working with to be able to feel like we can afford people's services or that those people feel like they can't charge because people don't have enough money to do something. So it goes back to the, like, we don't have enough money to be paying each other. And that's a little bit by design. But that's my soapbox.
- [81:28]
Katie Weber
No, I, it's true. But you think about like, okay, how much money is that something like the anti planner going to save me in terms of productivity, in terms of motivation, like, you can't.
- [81:39]
Danny Donovan
How much coaching costs Right.
- [81:41]
Katie Weber
Like, it's just like there's, it's. There's a way in which we aren't able to do that math a lot of the time in terms of like financial investments and return on investments. And I'm not a finance person either. So it's like there are moments where I'm like, Like, I remember my husband, I would always joke about like when apps used to be free and then they wanted to charge you like $10 for an app that you literally use every day of your life and being like, what, you want to charge me $10? And like, and then I go out and buy a $20 bottle of wine and like down it in. In 10 minutes. And so like our sense of what worth is is often very, very skewed in our society.
- [82:17]
Danny Donovan
I have that exact same kind of thing with. Yeah. With apps. And I think that people not always knowing how much time and effort necessarily like went into things. Especially if it's like with the anti planner, the illustrations took longer than writing the book because the book is essentially laid out like a bunch of how to. It's like a productivity recipe book. Right. Or like experiments where it's like, this is what you'll need. This is how it works. These are tips. Tips. And this is why it works. And they're all bulleted and kind of like both. Like I wanted them to be instantly skimmable. You can tell that your girl is like a Twitter and TikTok short form content creator. Where I was like, every activity is one page. Don't make people read more than they have to. But not necessarily knowing how much time goes into developing stuff that is short because writing short stuff takes a long time. The illustrations took a long time. But that developing the framework that is the entire scaffold of for the book. Right. That navigation system that. That took a long time too. And people might not even necessarily clock. That was a thing that was like invented. Feels like a weird word to use. I don't know what the right word developed, I guess.
- [83:27]
Katie Weber
Yeah, right.
- [83:27]
Danny Donovan
But something that didn't exist before. They might not think about the fact that like this system of explaining executive dysfunction literally did not exist before.
- [83:35]
Katie Weber
Yeah, well. And not only that, but just like the ability to edit too. Like, it's a lot easier to render, write massive paragraphs and go on and on and on with no editing. It's a lot harder to communicate an idea in brief, succinct, meaningful ways. I don't think that's something people think like, how hard can it be that it's like drumming and comedy.
- [83:56]
Danny Donovan
Yeah. We want to respect the ADHD attention span because it's also my attention span. And so I think that my gauge for design, for products, for content is always like, would I. I read this? Would I watch that? Like, I have a very. I have a very, very short attention span. And so everything kind of being on the, like, would I read this? No. I get bored about here and I'm like, why would I ever expect anybody to, you know, keep reading? Okay. If I got bored here by my own stuff, like, I gotta go back and redo it. And I think that, that for especially new creators or business, a lot of like, business owners who I don't fully clock that, like selling your own product and making your own product are like different, different skill sets. I happen to have both of them because I like my product is me in a book form. But talking to a lot of people that like that, describing to other people what it is you do and why they should care and to keep their attention, I think is challenging, especially these days. But anyways, I'm just really happy that people are getting so much out of the book and that when you said the overachieving kind of part of it is so true because the over delivering, over delivering. Sorry. Because I was so perfectionistic about getting to make it my way. I had pre orders, so I didn't have to take out a loan to make it. And so that was really great to have that support. But now it's like, okay, well, what's next? And I go, well, I got a 4.9 star, my first product. No pressure, but it's like the most pressure. Everything I go, people know me for this. What I come out with next, like, everything feels like it's gonna, you know, not be as cool or. And so it's a different success is great, but it's also got this other sort of lens that I didn't fully realize until I was in it. The perfectionism was already there, but now it's got double pressure.
- [85:48]
Katie Weber
Do you go back and look at it and think like, oh, I missed some stuff or I would change this. Like, would you think about, like having volumes coming out or additions like a textbook?
- [85:57]
Danny Donovan
I have a. Actually, the funny thing is that I actually don't have anything. I would change about this one because I went through it and said, what would I change on? I have four or five different versions that happened before anybody ever saw it. Where I developed it, post it, noted it up, made a bunch of edits, sent it, got it back, posted it all, you know, post it, noted it all up, made a bunch of edits, sent it out, got it all back. And so I, I did that process of what do I want to change? What do I want to change? What do I want to change? And I to want was doing the thing I talked about earlier where I was working way too many hours, wasn't standing up, wasn't taking care of my body, and that was not great. But now I look at it and I can be proud of it. My next thing, I'm working on developing new activities and actually a couple new sections that I realized were kind of missing because there's. I use this book to help myself get stuff done almost every day, which is crazy that it's been, you know, it's been out for four years, five years. Oh my God. And that I still use it as frequently as I do, but that there are things that weren't still weren't really getting taken care of. I'm like, why am I still struggling? And I realized one of them just time blindness and time management. And I go, I have difficulty prioritizing in here, but it's not specific enough that it is one particular thing, and that particular thing is managing my own time. And so I've started developing activities specifically to help for that, because this is a problem I'm currently having. And I go, well, if I'm having a problem, other people are probably having the same problem. Let me invent some new ways to figure out how to solve it and then feel like, empowered doing that and knowing like, oh, eventually maybe this will be content. But revisiting that process of self experimentation for things that like, aren't currently in the book.
- [87:45]
Katie Weber
Awesome. Well, that sounds exciting. All right, well, so no pressure, but what's next?
- [87:52]
Danny Donovan
Well, as I said, so I'm. I'm developing the content. I've got some content for anti Planner 2 activities, but I don't know how far, how far down the line that's going to end up being. This is the first place that I have mentioned that I am prototyping an app right now. And so as I've been doing it, I've realized how many things are gonna be game changing in ways that like, a book product cannot give, like, cannot give people. And so one of the ones I've got in the perfectionism section that like, can't be in a book is first draft, worst draft. And it's essentially a text editor that you can. There are different settings, but this the one that it comes with like default picked is you can't erase more than five words behind, so you have to keep going. It's like this is my first draft of an email I need to write, and you keep, keep writing. If you try to backspace, it'll only let you backspace for five words to change typos. But other than that, you got to keep going and then it'll save it at the end. And so you have essentially, like there's one that you. It won't let you backspace at all, but then you can't fix typos. And it drives me crazy. But the one that's essentially soft locked to where you have it forces you to keep moving is like a perfectionism thing. I continue to use now and I go, this is great. This is a tool that I need. I can't wait to show this to people. But there's other kind of stuff like that that will be interactive and in a different kind of way.
- [89:15]
Katie Weber
Oh my goodness. I'm so excited by that. Oh, that is so great. I can already feel like how helpful that would be. All right, well, that's super exciting and I know we'll all be waiting for whatever amazing things comes from the world of Danny Donovan and Donnie Danivan.
- [89:32]
Danny Donovan
Yes, and I said it out loud, so it's real now.
- [89:37]
Katie Weber
Well, awesome. This has just been so great to hear about your journey and to finally get to say thank you for putting this amazing stuff in the world and
- [89:46]
thank you so much for joining me. There you have it. Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Women in ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womeninadhd.com if you're a woman who was dying diagnosed with ADHD and
- [90:06]
you'd like to apply to be a
- [90:07]
guest on this podcast, visit womeninadhd.com podcastguest and you can find that link in
- [90:13]
the episode show notes.
- [90:15]
Also, you know, we ADHDers crave feedback and I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple podcasts or audible
- [90:24]
and if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just
- [90:28]
take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency. And they may be struggling and they don't even know why.
- [90:42]
I'll see you next time when I
- [90:43]
interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken. But she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage.
- [90:55]
Take care till then.
- [91:01]
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