← Women & ADHD
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:30]
B
Like what is what and how do others see this and how confusing it is to know what is autism, what is adhd and what does it look like when someone has both and just those kinds of questions. I was really curious to know what other people thought of, especially since the scientific literature is not there yet. You know weren't even allowed to be diagnosed with both until 2013, so that means you couldn't even have studies where you're diagnosed with both before that.
- [02:08]
C
Hello and welcome to the Women and ADHD Podcast. I'm your host Katie Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45 and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience and now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Hello and welcome back. Before we begin, I would love to share with you this review from a listener named Curly sue in ATL from the Apple Podcast platform. It's entitled so helpful. I have picked up some really valuable gems from this show, both validation and practical tools that have really made a difference for my productivity and self concept. Thanks for putting this together. Well, thank you for putting together this review, Curly Sue. I'm so glad to hear these conversations have made such a difference and I love to get this kind of encouraging feedback. So thanks again. And if you're a listener of this podcast and you found these interviews to be helpful, the best way to pay it forward is to leave a review so that other women like you can find this podcast and these conversations and know that they're not alone and they're not simply lazy or depressed or broken. But they have adhd. So please take a moment to head to Apple Podcasts or Audible or you can now leave feedback on individual episodes on Spotify. And if leaving a review feels like too much right now, you can also just quickly hit those five stars. In fact, why don't you just pause right now and go do it. I promise we will wait for you. Okie dokie. Here we are at episode 189 in which I interview Jackie Schuld. Jackie is an expressive arts therapist who runs a private practice specializing in late identified autism and ADHD. As a late identified autistic and ADHDer herself, she loves to connect with her clients through writing, art and conversation. She's also written and illustrated several visual books, including Life as a Late Identified Autistic, Grief is a Mess and many more and you can find a link to those in the show notes Jackie and I talk about the road to identifying as an autistic and ADHD adult and some of the limitations to the official diagnosis process. We also discuss the difficulties that many neurodivergent adults, especially women, have had with therapy in the past and discuss some of the unique needs that neurodivergent clients tend to bring to a therapeutic relationship. We also talk about how and why art therapy, which includes writing, drawing, music, so many different forms, can be such a valuable tool for expression and self exploration, especially for neurodivergent clients. Okay, before we begin, I also just want to give a quick reminder. I am a big fan of Jackie's writing and I was really excited to interview her and as often happens with me when I'm really excited, I start to ramble and I go off in all directions. So during this conversation, I share some of my unsubstantiated theories and opinions about autism and adhd as I often do. So please be reminded that I am not a medical professional. Make sure to always consult with a qualified healthcare professional whenever it comes to your mental health. Okay. Just wanted to get that out of the way. And I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did. Here is my conversation with Jackie. Hi, Jackie. Thank you for joining me. I'm very, very excited. I feel like I know you already because I discovered you. I think it was a. I was trying to remember how I found you. I think a client recommended one of your medium pieces and then I subscribed and have been reading your pieces for a while now and just feel very, very seen by your writing and really appreciate what you're putting out there into the world. And yeah, I just have a lot of questions for you. But let's start out with your adult diagnosis. I actually don't know. Were you diagnosed at the same time ADHD and autism, or was it a one, two punch?
- [06:20]
B
Yes.
- [06:21]
C
Okay, so what exactly was going on in your life in the moment that really you started to look into it and put two and two together and seek out the diagnosis?
- [06:30]
B
Well, prior to my diagnosis, I self identified as autistic. And I really only went for a diagnosis because I was considering returning to do a PhD and wanted some accommodations and things like that. And it was when I got my diagnosis for autism that they also mentioned adhd. So that was really the one I didn't see coming. I was like, oh, okay.
- [06:59]
C
And what about your, what was it that made you self diagnosed? You know, what was it about yourself that you started thinking and identifying as autistic?
- [07:07]
B
Originally it was an art therapist I was working with who suggested I might be autistic. And I'm a therapist myself. And so what we're taught in grad school about autism is very limited. And so I was like, there's no way. There's no way I'm autistic. Thank you now. And you know, she still encouraged me to do some reading, so I did. And then I really, once I got to read things written by women and that it was more about the internal experience. Then I really started to identify with it and was like, oh. And kind of went down the deep rabbit hole that most late identified autistics do of like, what does this mean? And through that was confident, completely confident I was autistic and was comfortable continuing as self identified. In fact, I kind of Saw it as a, a badge of pride. Kind of like, I don't find the diagnosis system in the states valid for autism because it's so flawed. And so it was kind of my way of being like, I don't. I'm not going to use you system. And then ended up deciding to pursue it again, as I mentioned, because I wanted some accommodations.
- [08:34]
C
Yeah, I wish I had that clarity because I feel like I. I feel like I was diagnosed, you know, I was diagnosed with adhd. And it's only through interviewing and talking to women and just doing my own research and really, like, thinking about what are we talking about here? Especially because the, you know, when we would start talking about sensory issues, and I remember I had this video series on Instagram where I would talk about, like, only wanting certain spoons and, you know, only having certain mugs and overhead lighting. And like, anything that involves sensory, I would always get that response, which is, you're not talking about adhd, you're talking about autism. And I would be like, okay, wait, wait, wait, what, What's. What is this overlap? You know, some people say there's a huge overlap. And then I'm like, is there an overl or are we actually talking about autism? And so, like, I went down this rabbit hole journey of, like, do I self identify and have read so many books? And I still, I don't know, I feel like there's still so much like, imposter syndrome that I'm experiencing a lot. Right. And so part of me feels like I would really benefit from the official diagnosis. But also I'm like, I think my ADHD is just getting in the way of actually following through on it. Right. You know, and it's the same with my daughter, too. Like, my 17 year old, like, I pretty much have identified her as autistic as well. And we have a lot of conversations about, like, our experience, and she actually doesn't care. She's sort of like, maybe I am, maybe I'm not. Like, for her, she's like, she, you know, she embraces the neurodivergent umbrella and identity and she really doesn't. It doesn't bother her as much as it bothers me where I'm like, I need to know yes or no. So I feel, like, very befuddled. And also, not only that, but like, I don't know if it was in. If it was in Devin Price's book or if it was like a random tweet I saw once, but there was something that really a kernel that stayed with me which was like, if you are doing a lot of research, you know, people who aren't autistic don't tend to do a lot of research about whether they are autistic. And that's always stayed with me. But I'm also sort of like, well, but I don't know, like. Or like you just said you knew. Right. And I'm like, how do I. How. How did you know?
- [10:48]
B
I mean, to be fair, I didn't know right away. I. That was after months of deep diving. And I also write a lot, and my writing helps me process and think deeply on the information I'm consuming. So there was that as well.
- [11:06]
C
I know, right? It really depends on what day you catch me, whether I'm like, really, you know, where I am on my scale of absolutely positive. And, yeah, there's no. I don't know, what are we even talking about here? You know, and then I get to, you know, go on this existential spiral. But, yeah, I'm curious with you looking back at your own experience as a therapist. You know, one of the things that you write about a lot is sort of how neurotypical or holistic therapists just are getting it wrong when it comes to therapy with having autistic clients. And you, as an autistic client, would really like to find you. Right. That piece where you were like, I wish I could find me, but obviously that's unethical. But I'm curious, looking back at this journey and your late diagnosis and looking at therapy just as a whole, basically, I'm thinking, like, I feel like I talk a lot with clients about how therapy, you know, there's a lot of, like, baggage or resistance to therapy from neurodivergence women, especially, because a lot of us have been misdiagnosed with depression or anxiety. And so, you know, we talk a lot about why therapy feels like it's not helpful, but I feel like it's much harder to articulate what it is that wasn't helpful. Right. And so I'm curious if you have been able to articulate for yourself, like, where therapists tend to go wrong when it comes to not only autistic adults, but also, like, late diagnosed autistic adults, because I feel like there's a very specific category.
- [12:48]
B
Yes, there's a couple answers kind of nestled in there. It's like, the thing about, like, going wrong. First of all, I don't think most therapists are equipped to identify that a client is neurodiverse. So that's obviously an issue from the start. But if we put that aside and say, okay, they are able to know someone is neurodiverse, there's still, then, okay, what do you do with that and where do you go? And so in either case, someone who either isn't educated on, you know, doesn't really under either doesn't have the education or the lived experience or both. I think what they're doing is using, you know, the best skills they have as a therapist. And unfortunately those skills are designed for the general population. And sorry, this is like my long winded explanation. What I'm trying to get at is that a lot of therapy today is based on, okay, let's look at your thoughts, let's examine your life, like your trauma. Let's like dive into all of that. And that is good and has its place. But for an autistic, what we really need to do is see like the structure of their life, like their life. And what I mean by that is the impact of how full a person's day is is going to have far more ramifications for an autistic than anyone else.
- [14:28]
C
Well, I was going to say this is a huge ask too because I'm like, I don't have the answer to this. Right. Like, I feel like it's a really, really difficult thing to articulate well and.
- [14:37]
B
I don't want to invalidate that. Many autistics have trauma and trauma therapy has its place and so does, you know, examining our beliefs. But really I see autism as an activated nervous system and that you're constantly on alert. You're and you're constantly taking in more information, you're constantly having more thoughts. And so we need to work within that reality. And that means one, that a lot of the other tools aren't going to work like hey, stop and examine each belief, see if it's true. That is just not possible with the sheer volume of thoughts going through most autistics minds. And furthermore, we really have to look at how autistics can honor their energy cycles. Essentially that no matter what I do in therapy, I'm still going to get tired from socializing. I'm still going to get tired from the stinking leaf blower outside. It's summer right now. They're driving me nuts. But there's this idea in therapy of like fixing yourself and like fix your mind and a neurodivergent perspective is okay, you're not actually fixing what's going on in your head. Instead you're trying to shift things in your environment and in your daily life and in Your structure to honor how you naturally function. That's what I was trying to say.
- [16:08]
C
Yes, it is. Absolutely. And I think it's one of those things that I've had a really hard time articulating for myself. All I can come up with that's like, this is about mindset and reframing and self concept and a lot of these vague terms that really, if you don't know what I'm talking about, have no frame of reference. So I think you articulated it very well, which is like, it doesn't matter how many tools I have in my toolbox if I can't access them. Or now what. How do I stop feeling terrible about myself? Right. And I think that's where it comes down to, like, really, like, so much more of it is psychoeducation and understanding your triggers and understanding, I call them, like, notes in the margin about, like, who you are from one moment to the next.
- [16:56]
B
Yes. And I. And I think maybe a concrete example of all this is that I myself went to therapy starting in my 20s, being like, hey, like, something is not right, you know, And I did all the trauma work, I did all these other, like, all the things, and I still didn't feel good. It felt like I was failing therapy, you know, like, I'm doing all the things. And so learning I was autistic, really. One, freed me from trying to constantly change and fix myself. And then two, allowed me to see, like, oh, I'm not too sensitive and need to, like, fix, you know, whatever's being triggered in me instead. Like, no, I'm a deeply connected, empathetic individual, and I need to honor that. And so, for instance, a concrete example would be I reduce the amount of news I consume or see, because, like, that. That really drags on my energy. And that's, like, what you were saying about notes in the margin. That's specific to me. Like, so it's been a process of learning, like, pulls at my energy. What kinds of things can I eliminate, as well as how can I structure in more recovery time, like naps and stuff like that? And then how can I reduce demands on me?
- [18:16]
C
Right. Which is, you know, ironic given the mental health field, because the mental health field, like medicine and most clinician clinical fields, are really terrible about allowing you to do any of those things, as I'm discovering, you know, so I'm also, like, getting my master's right now in clinical mental health counseling. And so I have a lot of questions.
- [18:35]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [18:38]
C
But I want to talk about art therapy, too, because I feel like it must have been really interesting to you to start out. You were diagnosed after you became an expressive arts therapist, and so now you'd be like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, I feel like arts therapy is so incredibly helpful and such a great tool for the neurodivergent brain. And I just wanted to explore that a little bit and hear from you. But what were some of those realizations you made when you were diagnosed as neurodivergent or identified as neurodivergent? You know what I mean? What were some of those realizations you had about art therapy? And just talk about what are some of those benefits that are specific to working with autistic clients?
- [19:26]
B
First and foremost, it had me look at my own art process differently. Whereas many times I had difficulty articulating and conveying the strength of what I was feeling, and art helped me to do that, that I could point at the picture and be like, it feels like this. Because a lot of times as autistics, we feel so much at once. Looking back on my life, it helped me to see why during difficult periods, I turned to art so frequently. And then in terms of being an art therapist and how it work helps neurodivergent clients, I think it's a very similar thing in that there's just some things that are hard to get out as well, as we need way more processing time than most people. And when I say I should say, like, neurodivergence. So this includes adhd. We just need time for things to work their way through our brains. And art helps us with that as well as gives us a place and an outlet for all the intense emotions and thoughts we have. So it's just so many levels. I mean, and there's also other levels, like, with themes come up in someone's art that they may not be aware of. That I notice as an art therapist, you know, there's so many things happening and that, like, I also like that it's a tool you can continue to use between sessions. So most of my clients I meet with once a month, and I give them tailored activities to work on each week we're not together. And so it's nice that they can really sit and have the time to explore the things we're talking about, and then we can get back together and look at their art and be like, oh, did you think about this? Or, oh, like, what about this? And, yeah, I could go on a long time about art therapy. So I'll stop there. I'll pause for any questions.
- [21:27]
C
No, I like that. And I really like how you tied it not only to the expressiveness, right. Like just an alternate option for expression. And I think that that can be so helpful because I think, you know, one of the things that I've realized in just working with and interviewing so many women with ADHD is that we all diagnosed in adulthood, like we all had this question which was like, what's wrong with me? Right. Like we all moved through life saying, I'm different, what's wrong with me? And that frustration of, you know, our intentions are very different from our actions a lot of the time. And I think that that really like the depression that is experienced. Just like we have neurodivergent burnout, I feel like there is neurodivergent depression. And I feel like that kind of depression often comes from a frustration which is like, why am I so wrong? Right. Why am I disappointing other people? What is wrong with me? And how can I be that person, person that I'm supposed to be?
- [22:25]
B
I would tie into there the role of hope and that a lot of times we reach a point of hopelessness. Like there's. I don't know how to get to where I want kind of feeling. And I've been trying and trying and trying, like tied to what you're saying about the brokenness. And so hopelessness is directly tied to depression, suicidal ideation. Like it's a really big factor that I myself have experienced at different times and I hear from my clients many times.
- [22:56]
C
Right. And so I feel like just being able to have something non verbal, you know, that you can feel like a pure connection with, I'm guessing is something that must be very, very important.
- [23:13]
B
Yes. And to be clear, expressive art therapy includes all art forms, which includes writing. And so a lot of times I'm giving my clients writing assignments or I'm saying imagine what this painting would say to you on this subject. And so that's also helping to make those connections in our brain and. Yeah, well, I won't get into any. It's just working on so many different levels but helping us to externalize what's happening and then also be able to like talk about it with those that we need to talk about it with. Meaning, for instance, if you're having difficulty with a partner or a friend, that you're then able to talk about those issues with them.
- [23:56]
A
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- [25:55]
C
Many people have late diagnosed autistic adults have you interviewed at this point?
- [26:00]
B
A lot? I think it might be over a hundred because I did like I did, I did autism interviews and then I did combined autism and ADHD interviews and then I did autism mini interviews.
- [26:11]
C
Oh, okay, awesome. All right, well, I'm, yeah, I'm curious because I know for me I kind of like backed into this whole podcast where I was diagnosed and I really, really wanted to have conversations with people to understand my better or just like, you know, to verbally process. And so I built this podcast platform so that I had a reason to reach out to people to interview them because I was like, nobody's going to just want to talk to me without this platform. But it was very, you know, I've often said on this podcast where I'm like, it's purely selfish. And one of the things that always amazed me was I feel like over the years of interviewing people, like, that's how I learn, right. And it's been really nice for me to think about this exchange, this one on one exchange as being so symbiotic for the interviewee who also gets to share their story and benefits from that. But then also there's the listener that benefits from hearing us talk about our shared lived experience. And it was just like, I didn't plan any of that. Like, I'd love to think, I'd love to, you know, take credit for actually having thought this out, but it was really just like this beautiful, you know, accident. And so I was just curious for you when you decided you were going to start interviewing late diagnosed adults, like, what were you looking for and what did you find or what are you finding?
- [27:33]
B
To be clear, my interviews are very different than yours. I send written questions to people and then they get to write their answers on their own time. So it's not live, it's not really a conversation, which quite frankly, I did it that way because I didn't have the capacity to have more conversations. As a therapist, it takes a lot of energy, like mental, emotional energy to show up at the level that I do for people. And I already limit the amount of clients I have to honor that. And so it was like, I don't have more energy for in person, for live conversations. But I was still super curious. That's what drove me. I was like, I want to know, like, am I the only one here? Or like, I just wanted to hear more experiences from late identified autistics. And that's why I started it. And same with like each iteration of the interview, like when I did the combined autism and adhd, it was the same thing where I was like, gosh, this is so confusing. Like, what is what and how do others see this? And I'm sure, yeah, we were kind of talking about this at the beginning of our conversation. Just how confusing it is to know what is autism, what is adhd and what does it look like when someone has both and just those kinds of questions. I was really curious to know what other people thought of, especially since the scientific literature is not there yet. You weren't even allowed to be diagnosed with both until 2013, so that means you couldn't even have studies where you're diagnosed with both before that. So there's not a lot of concrete things you can turn to. And so I was like, well, let's go for lived experience.
- [29:31]
C
Right? Speaking of confusing, because, yeah, I feel like I'm constantly going in circles and coming back to this. Like, what actually are we talking about? And it was interesting because, for me, autism is, like you said, autism is the brain and the nervous system, and ADHD is the behaviors that result from a dysregulated nervous system. Right. Or they're like. They are kind of the outward behaviors. And so that's. I almost think about it in terms of, you know, the orchid and the dandelion. Have you heard of that? You know, the two types of children. You have an orchid that takes a lot of care and, you know, and then you have a dandelion where you could basically just put them in any situation and they thrive. And for me, I'm sort of like, that's kind of how I think of autism versus adhd, where I think of adhd, and I don't know if this is correct. This is just what I've decided, because it's easier for me when I think about what is what and what's the overlap. And when people say there's such a huge overlap, and I'm like, is there or are we actually talking about autism? Right. And so what I've landed on is this idea that, like, ADHD is what happens when you are in, like, environments that are chronically inhospitable to your type of thinking, your brain, and your nervous system. And so we talk about ADHD as in terms of its deficits and in terms of the, you know, disorder, and it's, you know, much more pathologized. And yet, so, you know, autism is sort of like the, you know, the home base or, you know, the. And I have no idea if that's correct, but that's sort of how I've decided to think about it.
- [31:05]
B
Wait, so in that framework, who's the dandelion?
- [31:09]
C
The somebody who's holistic or neurotypical.
- [31:12]
B
Oh, okay. I wasn't sure if, like, the ADHD person was a dandelion. I was like, what's happening?
- [31:17]
C
Right. Well, you know. Well, that's. So I have a hard time. So then, you know, the question is, well, can you be ADHD and not be autistic? And then what does that look like? And does that come from trauma and not genetic neurobiology? But then again, it comes to that question of, like, well, how do you even judge trauma in terms of the. Your whole lifespan Right. Especially as a woman. Especially as a woman living in America. Like, how do you even begin? And you know those questions.
- [31:42]
B
Anyway, actually, can I. Can I jump in here, though? Because I do have some opinions, and I want to be clear. They're just opinions. Like you were saying for yourself, right, that. Yes, I don't want to misrepresent something. It's like these are the facts. It's more like we're all just trying to figure this neurodivergent world out, and the more theories and ideas, the better. And from the interviews to the amount of clients I've had, to my personal experience, I see autism as a different neurotype, meaning the brain is literally firing in different ways and causing other pathways in the brain to fire at the same time. And this also causes an activated nervous system, which for me, when I'm exploring with someone, if they're autistic, we're looking at six main categories. And this is going to tie into the ADHD thing. I'm going somewhere.
- [32:41]
C
But.
- [32:42]
B
So we are looking at their mental characteristics, their emotional characteristics, body, sensory interests, and then how they socialize. And all the adhd, the typical symptoms listed in the diagnostic manual show up in the executive function area. So in the mental characteristics of autism, I think that all autistics exhibit ADHD symptoms to some degree. It's just if the intensity and frequency are strong enough to meet the diagnostic criteria. So that's why also the scientific literature is saying that 70% of autistics are also ADHD. I think that's why there's such a strong overlap. But as for your point about just being solely adhd, and I hadn't thought about it from your side, something happened like what you were saying, so I'm going to think on that more.
- [33:51]
C
Well, and to give us some context, too, like, one of the things that I've been endlessly confused about being in the mental health counseling program and having this, you know, going through the curriculum right now and seeing how neurodivergence is just not talked about at all, or it's tacked on at the very end, or it's talked about in these sort of extreme stereotypes of what an autistic person looks like or an ADHD child, or they talk about it in very, like, vague, you know, situations where they lump it in with, like, criminals, you know, where they're like, you know, the criminals and deviants and people with adhd, and you're like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, but, like, one of the things that I find fascinating is the Fact that I see autism and ADHD everywhere in all of the case studies, in all of the, like, you know, things that, you know, especially in talking about the DSM and talking about, like, ptsd, right? And you'll say these comments very flippantly where it's like, in the military, some soldiers come back from the exact same experience, and some of them have PTSD and some of them don't. So it's a neurobiology as to, you know, it's up to neurobiology if you have it or you don't, or maybe it's genetic. And I'm like, is that autism? Like, is that what we're talking about? You know, and so I'm always thinking, like, when people say, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't, and we're coming back to just who that person is when we say who that person is when they're more susceptible to trauma, is that a form of autism in itself? Right? And so I'm always looking at, like, I just feel like I'm seeing it everywhere. And then I get back into my state of self doubt where I'm like, am I or am I misjudging this? And I'm totally confused and I have no idea what I'm talking about. So, you know, having been through the program and now thinking about it in retrospect, I'm like, always, you know, it's, it's, it's like you said, these are all theories. And I find it very validating whenever I talk to any clinician, psychologist, psychiatrist, anybody on this podcast, and they also have no idea. Right? Like, I find it very validating because I'm like, okay, so there's not like some book that I need to still read. Like, it's really. There's so many question marks around this. But anyway, though I will say for.
- [36:02]
B
Myself, in terms of being able to identify autism, it is very clear. Okay, you know, like, I mentioned those six categories and looking at what kind of. Of characteristics are show and that's my word, instead of symptoms, because I don't want to pathologize what kind of characteristics are showing up in each of those and how long they've been. Like, have they been present since childhood? And as well as it's a very common thing for autistics to fluctuate back and forth between hyper and hypo, meaning sometimes the light might be too much and you're like, oh, I need. I can't have any light. And that's a hypo state where you're like, oh, too much. And then other times you need light to feel alive and to feel happy in that moment. And that's a hyper state where you're craving something. And so that fluctuates. Anyways, point being that, like, for me, they're very specific things I look for because one of the main reasons people meet with me is to know if they're autistic or not. And so it's something I've worked pretty hard on in terms of, like, really understanding the breadth of characteristics and what we're looking for when trying to identify it.
- [37:17]
C
Yeah, no, I get that. You know, it's funny because I. I often. My other joke with. With not getting diagnosed with autism is the fact that I'm like, what if they say no? Then what? Right. That's my big fear.
- [37:32]
B
I. Yes, that's so true. I hear that all the time. Like, I think that's terrifying.
- [37:36]
C
Yeah, like, what will I do? And because, you know, we talk about the diagnostic criteria is flawed and it's also very old. And so there's this lived experience. There's the modern dialogue that's happening online. There's, you know, it's advancing so much faster than so many clinicians who are. Who were educated 30 years ago or whatever. Like, so really, it's such a crapshoot in terms of who you get and who you're talking to and who's diagnosing you. And so I'm sort of like, I. The fear of being told I'm not is too great, and what do I do with that, right? Where I'm like, I don't even know what to do with that. And then, you know, but I also, in terms of adhd, I will often, you know, I also admitted after starting this podcast that I was like, I started the podcast before I was even officially diagnosed with ADHD because I was so excited. And, you know, I always jump first and think later. And so I started the whole thing, and then in the back of my mind, I was like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do if my doctor says I don't have it? And. Right. And then, of course, you know, she was like, I came in with all my forms and everything. And she was like, no, you had me at hello. So it wasn't a big deal in the end. So part of me is sort of like, you know, when I talk to people about that doubt, right? That self doubt, that lack of self trust, that. That confusion, that lack of, like, really feeling in touch with your intuitive self, like, that's all part of adhd. So if you're having all of that imposter syndrome and that confusion, like, that's a pretty good sign that you're on the right track. And so part of me feels like I should be telling myself the same thing when it comes to autism, where I'm like, if I'm so afraid that somebody's going to say no, that I'm avoiding trying to even go after the diagnosis, that's pretty much means I'm on the right track. So I'm curious. You just said that a lot of your clients will say stuff like that. How do you talk them through that?
- [39:34]
B
Yeah, well, I want someone to jump in on, like, another thing here in that the Criteria in the DSM 5 for autism is all based on external behaviors. They're looking at, what are you exhibiting? And when I meet with people, I'm not looking at that. I'm looking at, are you having the interior experience of autism, regardless of how it manifests externally? It's not that I see the DSM 5 as incorrect. Like, it's just not sufficient. It's not all there is. It's not going a level deeper. And that's why so many people get missed, because, you know, oh, are you exhibiting that, like, rigidity? And that infl. Like rigidity is actually just a way of having routine so that we have to make less choices and things can be more clear because there's so much going on in our minds and we're taking in so much. So, like, once we start to see that, we can see autism a little differently. That rigidity is not what defines autism. The rigidity is actually a coping mechanism of what's happening in an autistic person's mind. I know that's a long caveat to what you were saying about self doubt, but I think one of my goals when I work with clients is that I want them to fully understand their autistic mind. I don't want them. My goal isn't like, yes, no, you're autistic. Goodbye. I want them to know, okay, and what does this mean for me? Because autism and ADHD are going to show up for each of us differently as well as we're going to cope with it all differently. And so I want anyone who concludes with me to have that information and to understand themselves on that level so that they can then sculpt their lives in a way that, like, honors that which will automatically decrease. What we were talking about with the depression or the anxiety or the other co Occurring things we often get either misdiagnosed or diagnosed with.
- [41:43]
C
Yeah, no, I think that's really, that's really well said. Thank you. During the early days of my diagnosis, as I was deep into hyper focus ADHD research mode, I kept searching for some kind of all in one everything you ever needed to know about ADHD in women handbook that I could reference and keep at my fingertips. But I never really found anything that suited me. That's why I've taken everything I've learned about ADHD in women and adults who are socialized as girls and I've gathered it into a concise, easy to access, self guided and self paced course so you can feel like you've got everything you need at your fingertips. It's called hey, it's ADHD and it has everything you need to start loving your brain and living a more food, fulfilling, gratifying life. I built this course to be helpful wherever you are on your ADHD journey. I am so excited to finally be able to offer this course and I truly hope this will help you develop a deeper understanding of your ADHD brain and how to embrace it as you build yourself a toolkit for your own life. So head over To Women and ADHD.com and click on the hey It's ADHD Course tab for more information. And to get started, I wanted to shift a little bit because you've written quite. How many books have you written? You've written quite a few, right?
- [42:56]
B
Yeah, five.
- [42:58]
C
Five. And I'll put a link to your website and all of your amazing books. But I was really struck by the picture books, especially around the picture books in, around your mom and her journey through chemotherapy and then also your journey through grief. And so beautiful and so wonderful. And were you diagnosed before or after your mom passed away?
- [43:20]
B
After.
- [43:21]
C
After. Right. So, you know, one of the things. So was I and, and so one of the things I sort of have really. The one person in the world I wish I could talk to about my adult diagnosis is my mom. Because I felt like she was also very confused, you know, with me growing up. And I, you know, she saw how much I struggled and how deeply hurting I was a lot of the time with, you know, with those questions. And so I was curious if you had similar feelings of, you know, do you look back at your family members and see neurodivergence? Do you see it in your mom? Is this a conversation you wish you could have had with her?
- [44:05]
B
I'm sorry, I struggle when there's like questions and questions.
- [44:10]
C
I don't know how not to. I'm so, I'm such a cute nosy. I'm so nosy. I'm like, just pick one.
- [44:17]
B
This is another interesting thing about neurodivergence. Right. Like here I am struggling with multiple questions at once. And yet when I work with my clients, I also do the same thing. I end up asking multiple questions at once. Anyways, I think my lived experience with my family is so unique in that I grew up in a very religious home. I grew up at a Christian camp that, that my parents helped run and that really shaped the expectations of who I should be as a human. And so I don't know that my mom would necessarily accept my neurodivergence. I don't like, I. She constantly was guiding me to like, give your problems to God, pray for help, those kinds of things. And her, that like, her number one goal for me was to have a relationship with Christ. So if autism in any way distracted from that, I don't know that she would accept it.
- [45:31]
C
Yeah.
- [45:32]
B
So I don't want to get too off topic here, but it's.
- [45:34]
C
Yeah, no, I think it's fascinating because I also was raised in a very fundamental evangelical household and you know, refer to myself as an exvangelical and. But you know, one of the things.
- [45:49]
B
Oh, there's the book too. Sorry, go ahead.
- [45:52]
C
Wait, what? Oh, you're. Wait, your book.
- [45:53]
B
No, no, no, no, There's a book called Exvangelical that's so good.
- [45:57]
C
Oh, really? Oh, I haven't read that. I mean, I've heard the term before obviously, but yeah, it is very fascinating to me in terms of just some of the. How dogma and neurodivergence intersect or don't and you know, my own sort of oppositional nature growing up and just how both of my parents sort of dealt with being very religious as well. And. But one of the things I will always credit not only my mother and but my grandmother were how curious and open minded they were. And so one of the things that I was always, you know, people would always like, my oldest brother is gay. And you know, people were always like, how did your mother deal with that? Because she was very accepting and she was fine. You know, she, she never wanted to be rejecting any of her children. She was very loving and accepting of all of us. Even when one by one we all left the church, boom, boom, boom, like we still had a relationship. And she was always very curious and always was sort of like, I don't understand why you think the way you do but help me. Help me understand. Right? And that, to me, was so antithetical to what I learned about the church. I could never really understand how she could be both. And now looking back, I'm like, I feel like she probably was neurodiver. She was the neurodivergent one. I don't know. I could never decide if she was or wasn't, because she was also, like, you know, of certain. That boomer generation where she was very organized and had a lot of routines around domesticity, which I don't. And, you know, so there was part of me that always thought of her as being, like, very together. But now I look back and I'm like, no, that was probably how she survived being a woman in this. That era. But anyway, I don't even know if I had a question in there. Was there?
- [47:40]
B
I. I don't think so.
- [47:42]
C
No, probably not. I just was so, you know, when I was looking at your books and was just thinking about this ode to your mother and, you know, and. And the experience of grief, too. I think grief is another one that is so isolating, especially considering it's universal and all of us go through it, Every single one of us loses a loved one, and yet it is. Was one of that grief. The loss of my mother was one of the most isolating experiences of my life. And I found that really fascinating because I'm sort of like, is that a universal experience? Is that neurodivergent experience? I'm not sure, but I found it really hard to share, you know, and feel connected to literally anyone else in that universal experience. So I feel like, you know what I'm talking about.
- [48:28]
B
I agree. Well, yes, and there were. I mean, the book was born from. To be clear, the book is called Grief is a Mess. And so it's about, like, how messy grief is. And it was born from the experience of watching all my family members and friends respond to my mom's death differently, as well as, like, their expectations of me and how I should be grieving. And it just kind of felt like, let. Let me have space to just be whatever I am and feel however I'm feeling and think however I'm thinking and that it's all over the place. It is all over the place. And that's what I captured. My book is like, sometimes some days you're, like, happy, and then other days you're like, oh, my gosh. Like, it's just so, so, so sad. And I really just made the cartoons from that of, like, honoring and looking back, that is one book that I'm like, wow, that is such an autistic thing to do. It turns up to be like, this doesn't make sense to me. Let me try to, like, break it up into categories and, like, make sense and, like, capture it all with art in these different ways. And so I have a kind of a lot of empathy for myself. Looking back making that book, I'm like, oh, I see what you were doing there, Jackie.
- [49:47]
C
Yeah. Oh, gosh. Right. You know, it's funny because I Talking about the long processing experience, you know, especially when it comes to emotion, that was something that I also really related when you were talking about, like, the impetus for the book and how grieving looks very different. And so going back to that question of what's wrong with me, I remember feeling like there was a lot of expectation to cry. And I did. Didn't right away because I wasn't. Hadn't processed it. It wasn't real to me in any way. And so there was this performative element at the funeral where I was sort of like, felt like, why is everyone crying? And I'm not. I'm the daughter of. I'm supposed to. And feeling really like there was something wrong with me. This was all before my diagnosis. And so, again, like, I talk about this a lot with my clients when it comes to happiness on the other side of that spectrum, which is like, happiness looks very different for different people. Right. And I think that's what we were talking about with the book. Like, there's no one way to experience happiness. Happiness doesn't necessarily mean you're smiling. It doesn't even mean that you are content or light. Sometimes happiness is a furrowed brow. Right. I talk about Sisyphus a lot because I think about, like, sometimes happiness is like, feeling really like you're putting. Solving a puzzle. Right? It's that fulfillment that comes from really digging in. And, you know, and I always would joke that we're the ones at a party where everybody else is having small talk and dancing around. We're the ones on a couch having a deep conversation about the time space continuum. Because I'm like, that brings me joy. I also like to dance, but I'm like, for the most part, I'm like, let's cut the small talk and get right into the intensity of it. And so I'm like, that's happiness. So happiness is gonna look very different for a lot of people. And you always joke, I don't like to open gifts in front of other people because my response always betrays yeah, Right. But I think, you know, it's like I never look happy enough or I never look grateful enough. And so I'm so worried about how they will receive me and then I get too worried about it. Right. And so it's like. But I. I had never really thought about how that connected to that. That length of time it takes to really just process intense emotions and how similar it was in terms of the grieving process. So. Interesting. Thank you.
- [52:08]
B
What you're saying, like, it's the same with like, joyful things even. Like, sometimes people be like, why aren't you more happy? When like something good, really good happens. And sometimes I'm like, it just. I don't know, a couple hours later it'll hit me and I'll be like. But like it just.
- [52:23]
C
Right.
- [52:24]
B
Yeah, it takes a step.
- [52:26]
C
So. Oh, man, I feel like I could just pick your brain for hours. So thank you for going on this, like, meandering journey with me. I. That's the other thing. I always feel like I said these questions ahead of time to people. I never stick with them and I feel terrible.
- [52:40]
B
So what can I. Can I tell you? I'll tell you a little secret. I didn't read them.
- [52:44]
C
Oh, good.
- [52:45]
B
I saw you sent them and I intention, no, but I intentionally didn't read them because then I will become obsessive and try to prepare too much. And so it was like, no, no, don't look, Jackie, don't look. Because I want to be more spontaneous in the moment. I do still appreciate that you sent them for the. Your guests. I prefer that. But for myself, I was like, don't do it, don't look.
- [53:08]
C
I love to hear that because I always, for me, I feel guilty if somebody has prepared answers and then we don't get to them because I feel like it's such wasted effort. But I am curious, you know, especially given how, you know, ADHD is such a deficit based name and it's so stigmatized. There's so much stigma around ADHD right now for myriad reasons, but, you know, the name is so problematic. Whereas I don't feel like there's that same conversation around autism. And so I'm curious, if you could rename ADHD to something else, would you. Would you call it something else?
- [53:48]
B
No. I mean, not that I. It just would feel weird. It just feels weird to give it a name anyways.
- [53:56]
C
Yeah.
- [53:57]
B
At least for myself, my brain functioning is just part of who I am. It's almost like when people are like, are you an artist? And I'm that feels like separating it from my identity, where it's like, no, I just. I do art. Like, I. I just. I am. And so the. The same with, like, my neurotype, it. But I. I'm with you on that. There's a lot of negative things said both about ADHD and all, but I really see it as enhancing my life. Like, yes, there's a lot of challenges, but it also helps me, like, see things differently and experience the world differently and in a way that I'm. I'm really grateful for. I mean, granted, I do sometimes I'm like, what is it like inside other people's brains? Like, I really do wish I could fit inside someone's brain who's allistic or neurotypical and just observe and be like, what is it like in here?
- [54:55]
C
I know, right? Yeah. That reminded me of identity first and person first language around autism and adhd. And I feel like, in terms of identity first, like, I don't know who I would be without it. Right. So I can't even imagine not having it. And so it's. It's everywhere in everything I do and think and say, it's everywhere. And so I can't even comprehend of who. What part. What part of me exists without it. And so I often don't understand how you could use person personally sometimes. I mean, I get it and I get how helpful it can be for some people, and I don't feel like there's one or the other that is the better way. I just, like, conceptually have a really, really hard time thinking about it. And so that's how I end up, like you said, seeing the positive side of it because I have no choice. Right. It's like seeing the positive side of anything. Yeah, yeah.
- [55:51]
B
For yourself, then, with adhd, how do you choose to identify? Do you say, like, you're an ADHDer?
- [55:58]
C
I don't really. Like, I feel like I probably default to person first language just because it's so awkward to say adhder more like from a grammatical point of view than I do necessarily, necessarily from, like, an identity.
- [56:12]
B
I know that's where I feel lucky to be, like, autistic is easy, but adhd, it's like, oh, how do you. How do you say that?
- [56:19]
C
I know it's more awkward, like, I embrace identity first, but even though I, you know, I haven't really come up with one way of saying it. What, you know, one way or the other. Depression, too. A depression one is another one where I sort of feel like I am. I no longer depressed now that I have adhd is another question I have all the time, which is sort of like, no, I don't ask those questions like, what's wrong with me anymore? And so I feel like I'm probably not depressed. But I also spent a very long time using identity first language around depression so that I could find joy, right? So that I could be like, yes, I am a depressed person, but I also have moments of joy. And I'm also a good mother and a good partner and all of those things. So. But I never thought of myself as getting rid of it, right? I just thought of myself as living with it. And so. But I do feel like people who say I was misdiagnosed and I could absolutely say without 100% that I don't have depression. And I was like, how. How are you able to say anything? You know, like, I'm sort of. I. I don't know if I'm just having a good run of it. And, you know, it sort of comes and goes and ebbs and flows, sort of like adhd. Sometimes I'm like, I'm on the ball and I don't feel like I'm a hot mess. But, you know, it doesn't mean I don't have it anymore. I don't feel like you can be cured of it.
- [57:38]
B
We could talk a while on this.
- [57:42]
C
But I see, you know, I see a lot of the merit for identity first language in a lot of diagnoses, or at least I like to contemplate it, you know, in a lot of those parallels with various other quote unquote disorders. Anyway, thank you, Jack. This is so wonderful. So, jackyshuld.com I'll have a link in the show notes to your website and also to your wonderful Medium blog, I guess. Is there another name for that or just account?
- [58:13]
B
Yeah, I think that's the right. I mean, I call my writing essays, but there are just so many pontifications.
- [58:19]
C
They are really, really wonderful, and I'm so glad I found you and just really, really appreciate the depth of thought that you put into a lot of these questions. I never trust people who have their mind made up about literally anything. So I really like the fact that you are so curious and open to so many things and it expresses so well through your writing. So thank you for putting that out there. Is there anywhere else where you want people to find you or look you up or if somebody wanted to work with you? I know, right?
- [58:57]
B
My website, if someone wants to work with me. Yeah, you can go to my website. I am currently full, but if you check in once a month, I update if I have a spot open. But I'd say that the other thing is I do try to be more accessible through my writing. That's kind of my way of being like, hey, here's what I do not have on limited time. But like for instance, with my book about autism, I was really trying to lay out like here's what I'm seeing. So yes, that's the easier way to interact with me is through the writing.
- [59:29]
C
Yeah.
- [59:30]
B
Awesome.
- [59:30]
C
Well, thank you again. It's been a real, real pleasure and hopefully our paths will cross again someday.
- [59:39]
B
Yes, thank you for having me.
- [59:41]
C
Thank you, Jackie. There you have it. Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Women and ADHD Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womeninadhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit womeninadhd.com podcastguest and you can find that link in the episode Show Notes. Also, you know we ADHDers crave feedback and I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener. Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts or Audible. And if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency. And they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken. But she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage. Take care. Till then.
- [60:55]
A
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