Women & ADHD | Ep. 189: Jackie Schuld – Art Therapy for Late-Diagnosed ADHD & Autism
Podcast: Women & ADHD
Host: Katy Weber
Guest: Jackie Schuld (Expressive Arts Therapist, Author)
Date: August 5, 2024
Brief Overview
In this episode, host Katy Weber interviews Jackie Schuld, an expressive arts therapist specializing in late-identified autism and ADHD. Both women share their experiences of late diagnoses and discuss the complexities of navigating adulthood as neurodivergent women. They delve into the challenges and limitations of the diagnostic process, therapy experiences for neurodivergent adults—especially women—and the transformative potential of art therapy for those with ADHD and autism. The conversation is insightful, empathetic, and filled with personal anecdotes, providing both validation and practical tools for listeners navigating similar journeys.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Late Diagnosis Journey (06:20–11:06)
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Jackie's Path to Diagnosis: Jackie first self-identified as autistic after her art therapist suggested the possibility. Reading literature by and for women helped her recognize her neurodivergence. The formal diagnosis came later, primarily to receive accommodations for a potential PhD program, during which ADHD was also diagnosed—something she hadn't anticipated.
"I was considering returning to do a PhD and wanted some accommodations... it was when I got my diagnosis for autism that they also mentioned ADHD. So that was really the one I didn't see coming." — Jackie (06:30)
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Self-Identification vs. Official Diagnosis: Both women discuss imposter syndrome, the difficulty of self-assessing, and the confusion surrounding overlapping symptoms. Katy notes how many people get stuck researching diagnoses, and how their children sometimes approach the question very differently.
"People who aren't autistic don't tend to do a lot of research about whether they are autistic." — Katy (09:57)
Therapy Experiences: Where Traditional Models Fall Short (11:06–18:15)
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Mismatch with Neurotypical Therapy: Jackie explains that most therapists are trained to serve the general population, which often fails for neurodivergent clients. Therapy for autistics should focus more on examining life structure, daily demands, and energy management rather than solely on trauma or cognitive reframing.
"A lot of therapy today is based on... your trauma. And that is good and has its place. But for an autistic, what we really need to do is see the structure of their life." — Jackie (13:27)
"I see autism as an activated nervous system and that you're constantly on alert... a lot of the other tools aren't going to work." — Jackie (14:37)
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Lived Experience of Therapy Failure: Both discuss feeling like they've 'failed therapy' until realizing their neurodivergence. The reframing comes from understanding one’s brain, not trying to 'fix' it to fit neurotypical standards.
"So learning I was autistic... one, freed me from trying to constantly change and fix myself." — Jackie (16:58)
The Unique Value of Art Therapy (18:38–23:56)
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A Tool for Expression & Processing: Jackie describes how art therapy—encompassing writing, drawing, and other modalities—provides alternative pathways for self-expression, especially when feelings are too complex for words. It also allows for deeper self-exploration over time.
"Whereas many times I had difficulty articulating and conveying the strength of what I was feeling, art helped me to do that, that I could point at the picture and be like, it feels like this." — Jackie (19:28)
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Between-Session Processing: Art and writing assignments let clients process and express thoughts/emotions at their own pace, which Jackie finds especially beneficial given the longer emotional and cognitive processing time of many neurodivergent people.
"It's nice that they can really sit and have the time to explore the things we're talking about, and then we can get back together and look at their art..." — Jackie (20:50)
Depression, Hope, and Neurodivergent Burnout (22:24–23:12)
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Intersection with Mental Health: Both discuss how questions like "What's wrong with me?" and the challenge of meeting others’ expectations often lead to depression and hopelessness for neurodivergent individuals.
"A lot of times we reach a point of hopelessness... and so hopelessness is directly tied to depression, suicidal ideation. That’s a really big factor..." — Jackie (22:24)
Exploring Diagnostic Overlap & Lived Experience Research (25:55–37:36)
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Interviewing Late-Diagnosed Adults: Jackie conducts written interviews (vs. Katy’s spoken podcasts) to collect broad lived experiences. She notes the confusion in distinguishing autism and ADHD and the lack of scientific research due to historical diagnostic limitations.
"We were kind of talking about this at the beginning of our conversation. Just how confusing it is to know what is autism, what is ADHD..." — Jackie (27:48)
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Conceptual Models: Katy and Jackie discuss the "orchid and dandelion" children metaphor to distinguish neurotypical and neurodivergent resilience, the challenges of separating trauma origins from neurobiology, and the flaws in education about neurodivergence in mental health programs.
"I see autism as a different neurotype, meaning the brain is literally firing in different ways... and all the ADHD, the typical symptoms... show up in the executive function area." — Jackie (32:41)
"I think that all autistics exhibit ADHD symptoms to some degree... if the intensity and frequency are strong enough to meet the diagnostic criteria." — Jackie (33:22)
Navigating the Diagnosis System & Identity (37:17–41:43)
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Fear of ‘Not Qualifying’: The fear of being told "no, you’re not autistic/ADHD" is a recurring source of anxiety for those seeking diagnosis.
"What if they say no? Then what? Right. That's my big fear." — Katy (37:17)
"The criteria in the DSM 5 for autism is all based on external behaviors... when I meet with people, I'm not looking at that. I'm looking at, are you having the interior experience of autism, regardless of how it manifests externally?" — Jackie (39:38)
Family, Grief, and Making Meaning Through Art (42:56–52:23)
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Legacy, Grief, and Neurodivergent Experience: Discussion about their mothers and family neurodivergence, religious upbringing, grief, and how those intersections affected their sense of identity and coping.
"I don’t know that my mom would necessarily accept my neurodivergence... her number one goal for me was to have a relationship with Christ. So if autism in any way distracted from that, I don’t know that she would accept it." — Jackie (44:05)
"The book is called Grief is a Mess... about, like, how messy grief is. And it was born from the experience of watching all my family members and friends respond to my mom's death differently..." — Jackie (48:27)
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Processing Emotions: Both observe how the neurodivergent emotional timeline—such as delayed grief response or atypical expressions of happiness—can foster isolation and self-doubt.
"I remember feeling like there was a lot of expectation to cry. And I didn’t right away because... it wasn’t real to me in any way." — Katy (49:47)
Identity, Labels & Language (53:07–57:38)
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Naming ADHD/Autism: Both women share ambivalence about labels, but acknowledge the importance of identity-first vs. person-first language and the limitations of current terminology.
"My brain functioning is just part of who I am... The same with, like, my neurotype. I really see it as enhancing my life... it also helps me see things differently and experience the world differently in a way that I'm really grateful for." — Jackie (53:56)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On the limits of traditional therapy:
"A lot of therapy today is based on, okay, let's look at your thoughts, let's examine your life, like your trauma... but for an autistic, what we really need to do is see like the structure of their life." — Jackie (13:27) -
On the blurry line between ADHD and autism:
"You weren't even allowed to be diagnosed with both until 2013, so that means you couldn't even have studies where you're diagnosed with both before that." — Jackie (29:07) -
On art therapy as self-understanding:
"I could point at the picture and be like, it feels like this. Because a lot of times as autistics, we feel so much at once." — Jackie (19:30) -
On the challenge of diagnosis:
"The criteria in the DSM 5 for autism is all based on external behaviors... when I meet with people, I'm not looking at that. I'm looking at, are you having the interior experience of autism, regardless of how it manifests externally?" — Jackie (39:38) -
On grief and processing emotion:
"It just kind of felt like, let me have space to just be whatever I am and feel however I'm feeling and think however I'm thinking... it is all over the place. And that’s what I captured [in] my book..." — Jackie (48:27)
Timestamps for Key Segments
| Segment | Timestamps | |----------------------------|-------------| | Introduction to Jackie | 06:20-06:59 | | Jackie’s diagnosis story | 06:30-07:07 | | Therapy & neurodivergence | 11:06-18:38 | | Art therapy deep dive | 18:38-23:56 | | Depression & hope | 22:24-23:12 | | Research, overlap, science | 25:55-37:36 | | Diagnosis doubts/fears | 37:17-41:43 | | Grief, family, emotion | 42:56-52:23 | | Identity & language | 53:07-57:38 |
Closing Thoughts
Jackie’s Writing & Resources:
Katy recommends Jackie's website (jackieschuld.com) and Medium essays as an accessible way to engage with her work and insights for those who may not have therapy access.
"I do try to be more accessible through my writing... that's kind of my way of being like, hey, here's what I do not have on limited time." — Jackie (58:56)
Summary
This episode offers a candid, thoughtful exploration of the late-diagnosed neurodivergent adult experience, with deep dives into the personal and systemic barriers to understanding ADHD and autism, the healing (and limits) of therapy, and how art can serve as a lifeline for those hungry for self-understanding and authentic expression. Both Jackie and Katy reinforce the vital role of lived experience, community, and self-compassion on the neurodivergent journey.