Madeline Grace Matthews & Karla Pretorius: Finding our neurodivergent voice

Summary

"Finding Our Neurodivergent Voice"

Women & ADHD Podcast – Katy Weber with Madeline Grace Matthews & Karla Pretorius
Episode 206 — February 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this special episode, Katy Weber interviews Madeline Grace Matthews, a young author with autism and a mild cognitive disability, and her mentor and therapist, Karla Pretorius, who is also neurodivergent. Together, they explore Madeline's journey toward self-acceptance and healing after a lifetime of feeling "different, not less." The discussion centers on Madeline's new book, 19 Letters to Myself, and the power of writing, self-reflection, and supportive relationships in building resilience and self-worth. The second half of the episode features in-depth insights from Karla on the intersection of academic research and lived ADHD experience in women.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• The transformative process of writing letters to one's younger self as a healing tool for neurodivergent women.
• Challenging the stigma around autism and ADHD, especially in adolescence.
• The importance of acceptance, self-advocacy, and supportive relationships.
• Understanding and normalizing neurodivergent traits across cultures.
• Bridging academic research and lived experience to enhance support for women with ADHD.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Writing to Your Younger Self

(Book process, self-acceptance, and healing)

• Origin of the Book: Madeline began writing letters to her younger self as a coping mechanism, which evolved into a means for healing past traumas and understanding her neurodivergent identity. (04:58)

  • "I started writing them as a coping skill, but later it turned into something like helping me let go of things that happened in the past." — Madeline [04:58]
  • "Writing is a lot easier for me than talking. So writing things out really helped me just release it." — Madeline [05:19]

• Therapeutic Collaboration: Karla, as Madeline’s therapist and mentor, recognized the potential in Madeline’s self-reflective writings, highlighting how trust-building and supportive guidance can facilitate personal growth and confidence. (05:31–06:41)

• Self-Kindness & Accepting Big Emotions:

  • Madeline's letters emphasize hope and the affirmation that neurodivergence is not a flaw.
  • Karla underscores the importance of validating and sitting with our feelings, rather than immediately trying to "fix" them. (07:47–08:55)
  • "There's nothing wrong with you." — Katy [07:07]

2. The Symbolism of Axolotls & Animal Companions

(Resilience, companionship, self-regeneration)

• Animal Imagery: Axolotls become a motif for resilience and regeneration, representing the ability to adapt and renew despite challenges. (09:28)

  • "I love that they can regenerate parts of their body, like their limbs or parts of their brain even, and their whole spinal cord." — Madeline [09:28]

• Animals as Healers: Madeline’s connection to her dog, Angel, illustrates how non-judgmental animal relationships provide emotional regulation and support. (08:55–10:09)

3. Navigating Trauma & Change

(Uprooting, trust, the role of therapy and family)

• Madeline’s story includes moving to China at age 7, being uprooted at 16, and adjusting to new cultures as part of a missionary family (28:11). The upheaval added complexity to her neurodivergent experience, but supportive figures (her family and therapist) were crucial for her healing.

4. Embracing Neurodivergent Strengths and Self-Advocacy

(Valuing difference, “main character” energy, reframing smartness)

• Affirming Differences: Both Madeline and Karla reiterate the message: "Different, not less" (30:02). Rather than focusing on deficits, they stress recognizing unique strengths.

  • “You might not be smart at one thing, but you're smart at other things." — Katy (Paraphrased) [26:12]

• Taking Ownership of the Narrative: Writing allowed Madeline to become the "main character" of her story, facilitating empowerment and reframing her past. (26:58–27:32)

• Learning to Say No: Madeline developed agency and confidence to assert boundaries during the writing process, a significant step towards self-advocacy. (17:03)

5. Tools & Strategies for Emotional Regulation

(Journaling, mindfulness, sensory strategies)

• Personalized Strategies: Both guests highlight finding regulation tools that work with their energy levels: quiet time, five senses and five-finger breathing, rage cleaning, or physical activity like Muay Thai. (18:38–21:04)

  • "I just want to do something that's at the same level of the energy that I'm feeling." — Karla [19:11]
  • "I often organize my room when I feel anxious." — Madeline [21:11]

• Journaling & Alternatives: Karla suggests visual methods (photos), voice notes, or simply paying attention to one's mood as more ADHD-friendly alternatives to daily written journaling. (13:53)

6. Masking, Rejection Sensitivity, and Healing from Shame

(Authenticity, advocating for self, navigating social expectations)

• Masking: Discussion centers on recognizing and reducing masking behaviors, practicing honesty about one’s reactions, and seeking spaces where authenticity is safe. (39:50–41:52)

  • "I do mask in front of people that I don't know that well, but in front of people that I do know, I feel free to be myself." — Madeline [40:33]
  • "Just noticing my body posture, everything...when I'm masking." — Karla [39:50]

• Rejection Sensitivity: Madeline’s book addresses Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, offering self-forgiveness and reframing intense emotional responses.

  • "Of course you're going to have that reaction. This is... You have big emotions. It makes complete sense." — Katy [34:17]

7. Cultural Perspectives & Universal Design

(Access, accommodations, societies and neurodivergence)

• Madeline and her mother, Angie, share challenges in accessing neurodivergent support and understanding in Thailand, where disability is often stigmatized and resources are limited. (42:42–43:45)

• Karla advocates for "universal design" — accommodations in environments that benefit everyone, not just neurodivergent individuals. (46:03–47:44)

  • "Accommodations that we require as neurodivergent individuals... are great for everybody." — Karla [46:03]

8. Research & Clinical Practice: Bridging the Gap

(Women & ADHD, the need for gender-sensitive support, lived experience)

• Karla, now a PhD candidate, focuses research on women with ADHD, emphasizing the neglect of female presentations and the need for combining academic understanding with lived experience. (51:56–54:11)

  • "As clinicians, we don't focus enough on what is actually going on... It's not about the symptoms as much as the feelings." — Karla [53:10]

• She criticizes mental health care that fails to recognize neurodivergent roots behind anxiety and depression diagnoses in women (54:11).

• Support Groups: Karla leads virtual ADHD women’s groups, highlighting community and peer support's importance. (81:43–82:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On hope and healing for teens:
  "I think just that there's hope for them." — Madeline [07:47]

• Reframing journaling for ADHD:
  "The one thing that I've stuck with is journaling... but not so much gratitude journaling, because sometimes I feel like it's okay not to be grateful, it's okay to be angry..." — Karla [13:53]

• On fitting in by finding strengths:
  "If you measure intelligence with a fish climbing a tree, you would be seen as not so smart..." — Karla [29:29]

• On masking:
  "I try just to recognize what I'm doing. And then, like, I do mask in front of people that I don't know that well, but in front of people that I do know, I feel free to be myself." — Madeline [40:33]

• On neurodivergent connection:
  "I like the big talk, not the small talk. And I've often said, like, I know when I'm talking to somebody who's neurodivergent because I feel, like, completely relaxed..." — Katy [39:15]

• Advice for neurodivergent young people wanting to be 'normal':
  "I'd say I'm still trying to figure that out myself. Like, it's still hard for me, too, but I'm learning more and more how to be myself." — Madeline [35:31]

• On self-acceptance:
  "It's actually my intensity that is my gift." — Katy [36:23]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 00:00–04:58 | Introductions, backgrounds, and origins of the book | | 04:58–07:47 | Writing to self as healing; coping with trauma | | 08:55–10:09 | The healing power of animals & axolotls as symbolism | | 13:53–16:08 | Journaling & alternatives for emotional regulation | | 17:03–18:38 | Developing assertiveness, practicing mindfulness | | 18:38–21:34 | Emotional regulation: personalized strategies | | 26:12–27:32 | Redefining smartness & becoming the main character | | 29:29–30:09 | Temple Grandin and “different, not less” | | 34:17–36:47 | Addressing RSD & the process of radical self-acceptance | | 39:15–41:52 | Masking, authenticity, and finding safe relationships | | 42:42–43:45 | Cultural perspectives: neurodivergence in Thailand | | 46:03–47:44 | Universal design & global perspectives on accommodation | | 51:56–54:11 | Karla’s research & lived clinical experience | | 57:05–82:19 | Deep dive with Karla on gender, masking, support needs, and projects |

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Final Takeaways

• Writing as Therapy: Reflective practice through writing can be deeply healing for neurodivergent women, helping to reparent the inner child and reframe self-perception.
• Value in Vulnerability: Embracing and accepting big emotions, rather than suppressing them, is critical. Community validation and self-compassion are mutually reinforcing.
• Strength in Difference: Neurodivergence should be viewed as a difference, not a deficit, and celebrated for unique strengths and perspectives.
• Personalized Self-Regulation: There’s no one-size-fits-all approach; finding individually resonant tools is key.
• The Need for Societal Change: Universal design of services and environments, not just targeted accommodations, benefit all.
• Women’s ADHD Needs: Academic and lived experiences must inform each other, especially in gendered presentations.

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Resources & Further Engagement

• Madeline's Book: 19 Letters to Myself: Guided Reflections and Prompts for Hope and Healing from a Neurodivergent Perspective — Available on Amazon.
• Karla’s Site: carlapretorius.com
• ADHD Women’s Support Groups: Contact Karla via Instagram @therapyneurodivergent
• Women & ADHD Podcast Community: womenandadhd.com

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Memorable moment:
“If you have a book there, you don't look peculiar.” — Karla, on managing social anxiety and enjoying one’s own company [70:23]

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Transcript

[Carla Pretorius]

Madeline's way of seeing, like, the detail. Yeah, the tiny detail. Right.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, I know. Like, I notice, like, things that other people will not notice. Like certain details, for example, like if there's something hidden, like, I'm really good at the hidden picture books. It's like, where you try to find certain things that are hidden. Like, every time I can find it.

[Katie Weber]

Hello and welcome to the Women and ADHD Podcast. I'm your host, Katie Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45, and it completely turned my world upside down.

I've been looking back at so much.

Of my life, school, jobs, my relationships.

All of it with this new lens.

And it has been nothing short of overwhelming.

I quickly discovered I was not the.

Only woman to have this experience. And now I interview other women who, like me, discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best just lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally.

Hello and welcome to the Women and ADHD Podcast. I have a very special episode today. We've got two guests, so we're doing things a little bit differently. But before we get started, I just.

Wanted to remind you that after this episode is over, make sure to head over to womeninadhd.com, our education, coaching and advocacy hub for neurodivergent adults like you. At womeninadhd.com, you will find all the resources you need to help you better understand your brain so you can thrive. You can book a free consultation with any of our fantastic team of certified ADHD coaches. [e-mail], you'll also find tons of free infographics, recommended self tests, My self Guided course. Hey, it's ADHD and much more. Okay, here we are at episode 206 in which I interview Madeline Grace Matthews and Carla Pretorius. Madeline is 23 and she was diagnosed with autism and a mild cognitive disability in childhood. Originally from the U.S. she currently lives with her missionary family in Thailand. She is also the author of a brand new book, 19 Letters to Myself. Guided Reflections and Prompts for Hope and Healing from a Neurodivergent Perspective. Madeline's book started as a series of letters to her younger self, originally as a coping tool and eventually as a way to make sense of her neurodivergence as well as childhood trauma, big emotions, religious faith, and learning to see herself as different as not less. Carla is a psychotherapist and a PhD candidate who began working with Madeline in 2021 and helped her write and publish the book. In the first half of the episode, the three of us sit down and discuss the process of writing the book and the healing power of showing our younger selves kindness and acceptance. In the second half of the episode, I sit back down with Carla to hear a little bit more about her research on women and ADHD and the incredible work she's doing in the neurodivergent community. Carla, who has ADHD herself, shares how she is working to bridge academic research with lived experience. If you are a parent of a neurodivergent teenager, or if you've been diagnosed in adulthood and you're on a journey of reparenting your inner child, or if you've ever felt like you were too much or just simply misunderstood, this episode is definitely for you.

So let's get into it. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Madeline and Carla. I just before we start, I just want to thank take a moment of appreciation for what the Internet has allowed us to do today. It's 8am where I am in New York. What time is it for you, Madeline? 8pm 8pm and you're where?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

In Thailand.

[Katie Weber]

In Thailand. And then we have Carla, who is. You're originally from South Africa, but you're in Portugal now.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yes. And it's 1pm here, so Madeline is also. She's originally from the US and they're living in Thailand and I'm South African, living in Portugal. Are you originally from Kitty?

[Katie Weber]

I'm originally from Canada. It's not terribly exotic, but yes. Yeah. I just think this is fantastic that this is my job and that I get to do this. So thank you both for joining me and for reaching out. So where should we start? So, Madeline, your book is phenomenal and I just really, really appreciated reading it. As somebody who was diagnosed at a much older age, being able to read these letters to a younger self, I feel like for me so healing and a lot of what we talk about on this podcast is this journey of healing our younger self. And so I really appreciated it from even at the age of 50, I really appreciated reading some of your letters to yourself. And I'm so glad you had so much wisdom already at such a young age. So I'm curious for either one of you can answer this question. How did the idea come about to write these letters to your younger self?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I started writing them as a coping skill, but later it turned into something like helping me let go of things that happened in the past.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah.

[Katie Weber]

How do you feel that helps you let go when you when you write a letter to your younger self, I.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Feel like writing is a lot easier for me than talking. So writing things out really helped me just release it.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah.

[Katie Weber]

Beautiful. What about you, Carla?

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, from my side. I mean, I've known Madeline now for. How long has it been? You're very good with dates. I'm not.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Four years.

[Carla Pretorius]

Four years, yes. And in the beginning, you know, it's. It's always when you get to know somebody, it takes a while to build that foundation. And really starting to trust somebody, it takes a while. Especially for neurodivergent individuals. I think that we've had a lot of trauma in our past with trusting maybe the wrong people or not always seeing the consistency of people, so rightfully so. It took us a while to get to know each other. But I absolutely love Madeleine from the beginning, and, you know, we. Well, just her way of seeing the world, and she was really good in putting her thoughts on paper and whenever she had a thought or. I don't know if you want to speak about, like, the. The thoughts that you went through, Madeline, but, like, writing those down and questioning those, I feel like that. That helped you a bit.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, I think so. I think it helped me see what was the truth and what was the lie.

[Carla Pretorius]

Hmm.

[Katie Weber]

I love how that's put. Yeah. You know, I. I'm currently working in a crisis center with teenagers, and most of them are sel. Most of them are suicidal. And not surprisingly, the vast majority of them are neurodivergent, either on the spectrum or have adhd. And I feel like, you know, one of the messages that is so powerful in your book that you really lean into is this idea that you're not broken.

[Carla Pretorius]

Right.

[Katie Weber]

There's nothing wrong with you. And one of the things that makes me so sad about working with teenagers who are neurodivergent is that their idea of neurodivergence is so negative. Right. That it's this thing that they're trapped with or this thing that it's the.

Explanation for what's wrong with them.

And a lot of the time it's really, you know, and they have a lot of big emotions. And so I guess when you're writing this book or when you were finished writing this book, what kind of message would you like to convey to younger readers who get to read this book?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I think just that there's hope for them.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, it's a big question.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. I mean, it's a difficult question for me as well. I think with Madeline's book is a book of Hope, and it's focusing on that. Whatever you're thinking of in the moment, it's okay. And you can work through that in your own way. Like, maybe that's through writing or sharing with somebody. But I think she did a really good job in not saying that whatever you're going through or thinking is wrong. You know, it is there. And it might be that you need to challenge those beliefs, and they're not always true, but it's not wrong going through the thought process, I think, and I think that's what you were saying, Katie, as well, is that, you know, we've got all these big feelings, and sometimes we just have to kind of sit with it with somebody or with ourselves if we're feeling safe. Madeleine, I don't know if you want to let Katie know about your love for animals and maybe speak about, like, the. The way that you are really connected to. To your dog.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I have a dog named Angel. She's about seven now, I think. But I got her from a shelter, and she just chose me right away.

[Katie Weber]

That's wonderful. I always hear that when you're picking out an animal, let them choose you. You don't choose them. So, yeah, I like that. And there's a lot of wonderful animal imagery throughout the book, too. There's a lot of axolotls. How did you come upon axolotls, or what is it you love about them?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I love that they can regenerate parts of their body, like their limbs or parts of their brain even, and their whole spinal cord. So I think that's pretty cool.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, it is.

[Carla Pretorius]

I didn't even know what an axolotl was, but I met Madeline. She told me about them, and I'm like, oh, these are cool little creatures. So, yeah, I really like the fact that I can learn so much from Madeline and her interest and just the way she sees the world and what she absolutely loves. Yeah, yeah.

[Katie Weber]

Well. And I think there's such a lovely mascot for this idea of growing throughout our lives. And it's never too late to really come to have a sense of rebirth or a new identity or the way you can shift your perspective and look at new things, and I think that's what we talk about a lot on this podcast. But, yeah, I mean, going back to this idea of not, you know, there's nothing wrong with me, that I'm not a problem to be fixed. One of the things you talk about a lot in the book is this idea of different, not less than. And I think that's such an Important message for anybody, but especially younger teenagers. And I know there's confidentiality in the work that you do together, but I was sort of curious how your work started, because you do talk about some trauma and the moves that you did and kind of having to be uprooted a lot, and your siblings. I was just curious how you found each other.

[Carla Pretorius]

That's through your mom, right?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, I think through my mom.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. So her mom contacted me, and we started doing sessions. I think in the beginning, it was already evident that you really enjoyed writing, and we would write. You would write things down in your diary?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I think so.

[Carla Pretorius]

So just some of the things that Madeline has gone through and that slowly became something more substantial. And then I think Madeline's got an inclination to helping others without even knowing that she's helping others. Sometimes, like, just the shares of wisdom that she has, you know, she'll say something and it will stick with me. And at the end of the day, I'll just remember kind of like what she said. So I think that's how we said, okay, well, why don't we just compile a book and maybe we can add some strategies and maybe that could help others. Because I think that's the one thing. Madeleine, I don't know if you want to talk about a bit about your past or, like, when you were younger, if it was a bit more difficult for you to not have an outlet.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, it was a lot more difficult. Like, I felt like I would keep a lot of things to myself because I felt like I couldn't trust other people as much.

[Carla Pretorius]

And I think the. The animals helped and then maybe, like writing.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, animals, I really connect to.

[Carla Pretorius]

Me, too. And they're just. They're so easy to connect to because they're always this. Giving you unconditional love, and all they want is just, like, a little bit of attention and maybe some food and some walks. My dog and. Yeah, and that's so easy. It's easy to trust animals. I feel like.

[Katie Weber]

Well, I also feel like they know when we are hurting even before we do. Sometimes. I know that, like, my cats, if I'm. If I'm crying, my cats will come up immediately and nuzzle me. Like, they're. They're really good at caring for you when you are struggling and maybe not able to, you know, talk about it or communicate with other people. So, yeah, they're very good therapists in their own right.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, angel really knows, like, when I'm feeling anxious or something, she'll just come right to me, Right?

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, they have an incredible intuition. Now that the book is published, are you still writing letters to yourself? Has this become a tradition? What kind of writing are you doing now?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I mostly just journal, I guess. Sometimes I'll journal. Not very often, though. I'm not very.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, me too. That's the thing. I love journaling, and I love gratitude journaling, but I also feel like it's really difficult to remember to journal. I don't know, Carla, if you have tips for using journaling as a way to process emotions.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. So I actually, I've spoke about this to one of my clients this morning. The one thing that I've stuck with, so I have adhd, and it's very difficult for me to stick with one thing for a long period of time. So I'll stick with something for, you know, like our sporadic two weeks, our hobbies, our new hobbies, and then I'll just jump to a new hobby, which I've made peace with now. But the one thing that I've stuck with is journaling. Not so much gratitude journaling, because sometimes I feel like it's okay not to be grateful, it's okay to be angry. Sometimes it's okay to feel the emotion that you're feeling. But I'm doing a daily O. It's a free app that I just downloaded, and I'm just adding photos every day on how I feel because I don't want to write every day. So I'm not as good as Madeline with writing, but I'm really good in associating a visual with a feeling, so I would do that. I think it's really important to find the medium that you're comfortable with. If it's talking for ADHDers, that's usually the case. So we can voice note to ourselves on a daily basis just to kind of keep track, or if it's visual or if it's writing, it really depends on what you find easiest and then kind of sticking to that for a reason. So my reason is I want to associate my mood with what happened. So I want to know why I had a bad week last week. And that would be me looking at the visuals. So I think if we have that reason to do something, it will make us do it for longer. But if there's no reason and it's just somebody on an Instagram video saying, you should journal every day, I'm not going to do that. So I think for Madeleine, the book was very much like there was an end product inside. You know, the book was going to be finished and she said 19 letters to her younger self, which I think is very therapeutic. And it was something that we worked towards. And now our next project, per se, is the marketing of it. And it's quite exciting to be here and for Madeleine to, you know, to prepare for these interviews. I mean, all of the stuff, it's such a great thing. I'm just super proud of her for doing all of this. So I think find your reason, right?

[Katie Weber]

Exactly. And I think like you said, with ADHD especially, we might like something for a couple weeks and then lose interest and move on to something else. And I think that's been the biggest shift for me since I was diagnosed with adhd, is just not having. Not feeling bad about that, not feeling shame about that and not questioning it, or feeling like I should really stick with something.

Right.

There's so many shoulds there. And I feel like that's a theme throughout your book too, Madeline, is that accepting ourselves and how we do things and not feeling like there's a better way or that we're supposed to be anybody other than who we are. So I think that level of self acceptance is really helpful.

[Carla Pretorius]

And confidence.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah. I really like that idea of noticing what you pay attention to in the images and then kind of saying like, that was my mood, depending on kind of where my attention went. I like that idea.

[Carla Pretorius]

So Madeleine, also, what she would say to me later on in the process is that, you know, today she doesn't want to write a letter or let's not focus on this today. So she became quite confident and assertive in advocating for herself through this process. I think it's a great thing for somebody to work towards accomplishing a goal, whether that is writing a book or going to gym or finishing a course or whatever it is, and then advocating more on how you're feeling that day, if you're okay with your energy levels, capacity, and then gauging it kind of and focusing on it when you feel you're ready. That's how she finished it. It wasn't me pushing her, it was her telling me when she's ready and what she wants to do next. Wonderful.

[Katie Weber]

One of the things I think is the hardest for me especially, but also in the adolescents that I work with, is knowing that there are lots of breathing techniques. And I love the finger breathing, the five finger tracing. I'm definitely going to try to teach that to my kids and try that myself, but, like, lots of opportunities for mindfulness. It's like we know what we're supposed to do in these moments. When we want to regulate and slow down, it's just getting there. It's just remembering to do it in the moment. Is there anything that helps you, Madeline, when you're feeling, like, the big, big emotions and you're really, you know, just, like, really super zingy, like, what triggers you and yourself to slow down and be mindful?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Sometimes I'll just try to sit, like, where it's quiet and do. One of my strategies, like the five finger breaths or the five senses, really helps, too. It's like what you can see, what you can smell, what you can hear, what you can taste. Just try to be in the moment, I guess.

[Katie Weber]

Right?

Yeah.

I like, like, setting up your environment for you. What about you, Carla? Do you struggle with that? I certainly struggle with, like, I know what I'm supposed to do in these moments, but sometimes I just want to stomp around the house and throw things.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, I think for me, it's. I just wanted to add something about what Madeleine also really does. Well, as she will message me, this is what happened. This is what I'm gonna try and do. So just kind of narrating again, because I think she's so good in writing, so she'll message me when something happens. I think, again, finding, like, the medium that you're most inclined to use is a good thing. For me, it would be visual or tactile, so I would do something, but I would always catch myself at the level that I'm at. So if somebody tells me if I'm, like, hyper and I'm really upset and somebody tells me just breathe, I get upset because I'm not gonna just breathe. I want to do something that is at the same level of the energy that I'm feeling. So if it is, like, a really big frustration, I need to go and do Muay Thai. So that's my new obsession, is, like, combat sport. So I always try, for myself and for my clients and friends, to find something that is at the same kind of energy level and interest that you're at or that you like. So for me, it would be something that is high energy when I'm feeling frustrated. So I need to go run. I can't just do breath work. I need to first decompress and really calm my nervous system, and then I can maybe engage in breath work. But I think it's. Yeah, it's finding what works for you and that you like. Those two things are very important.

[Katie Weber]

I appreciate that distinction. Yeah. Because it's like you've got this thermometer of where you are and your distress level. And as you were talking it just reminded me of like, that's why I rage clean, which is what I call it. When I'm really, really frustrated. I'll start scrubbing and cleaning something and I realize that that's how I'm regulating myself to get to a place that I can then calm down and start breathing.

[Carla Pretorius]

I wish I had rage cleaning.

[Katie Weber]

It's the only time. It's the I always say if you want me to clean anything, get me really, really angry.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I often organize my like room. When I feel anxious, I'll organize a lot. Noticed that.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, right. I think there's something very literal about like wanting order or wanting control during a moment when we might feel out of control otherwise. Yeah, I think it's all sort of that same idea of how we bring ourselves to a state of regulation.

[Carla Pretorius]

If the space around us is maybe more organized, maybe our brain also feels a little bit calmer. So we could breathe in a space that's a little bit more organized. So yeah, it's a really good analogy to I just have to do it.

[Katie Weber]

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So, Carla, how old were you when you realized you had ADHD or when you started to think I should look into this?

[Carla Pretorius]

So I didn't. I actually. I started in this field about 21 years ago, and I absolutely loved working with kids with ADHD and autistic kids, back when nobody really knew what was the difference between artistic and autistic. So it was. It was really back then when everybody just thought, oh, it's either Rain man or they didn't really know that. It's such a spectrum of individuals. But I clearly remembering going to my psychologist, and his name is Ben, and I was telling him something about a project that I'm starting, and he's like, oh, it's because of your adhd. I was like, wait. I like, what are you talking about? So I didn't actually notice. I just thought everybody had so many projects and so many thoughts and feelings and sensory overload all the time. So it was by accident, I think. And then I went through the process, and I got assessed through him and then through another doctor. And then my third time lucky, I got the same diagnosis here in Portugal. So, you know, we always have to. We want to check that we're not imposters. Got diagnosed three times.

[Katie Weber]

Although sometimes I say that if you're really, really worried that you're faking it and that aren't going to be believed, when you go to talk about your diagnosis, that's usually a sign you're on the right track.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, exactly.

[Katie Weber]

Because so many of us are so familiar with masking and also feeling like, is it really so bad? You know, I feel like we often doubt our own struggles, and, you know, we often are the first ones to invalidate ourselves when it comes to what we're going through and whether we should or shouldn't feel it. So, yeah, that tracks.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. And, you know, what I tell my clients is that it's not like we're friends. Sometimes when they don't think that I have adhd, I'm like, it's not like I want to be part of the dsm. It's not like we're putting up our hands and saying, please do give me a condition. It's hard to deal with autism, adhd, with the sensory overload, these thoughts that we talk about. Madeline, you and I, it is a difficult thing. It's not something that we're saying, oh, please, can I have this? But accepting it is different than wanting it. So I think that's a Clear distinction there. Yeah.

[Katie Weber]

Right. And I guess also that idea of like, how am I going to live a life worth living?

[Carla Pretorius]

Right.

[Katie Weber]

How am I going to live my best life and appreciate myself for my strengths, like you talk about in your book too. I think it was like, I don't have it in front of me, but I'm thinking there was a line that you said, Madeline, about you might not be smart at one thing, but you're smart at other things.

Right.

And I think we have such a narrow view of what smartness looks like. I really, really struggled in school, and so I just assumed because I had dropped out of university and that I wasn't smart and that that was just the label I gave myself. And so I think, you know, there's the ways in which we label ourselves certain things and also, I don't think it comes out of nowhere. I think we also receive that label from other people. But I think such a wonderful element to your book and to the letters that you wrote to your younger self is just kind of like what Carla was saying. There's nothing disordered about who we are and how our brain works. It's mostly just how much we end up in distress depending on the situations we're in.

[Carla Pretorius]

And yeah, I think Madeleine did a great job in becoming the main character in her book. I think that's something that I thought was really nice with the. It's like narrative therapy. Right. Is how she spoke about her past and then took control of it, which was really nice. So I don't know if you felt like that, Madeline, if you felt like throughout the process that you became more of the main character in your life.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, I think I did felt like that.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah. I recently took part in a similar book where a bunch of adult women who were neurodivergent wrote letters to our younger selves. And it was such a healing process. And I think there is something very helpful in using, like you said, a character of our younger self as somebody that we can show kindness to, if we can't necessarily show kindness and generosity to our present day self, often thinking about that little girl and what she might have needed in that moment. So how did your family end up in Thailand? You've moved around a lot. Can you tell me a little bit about your adventurous life?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

So I moved to China when I was 7, and then we got kicked out when I was 16. And we now live in Thailand.

[Carla Pretorius]

And the family is missionaries. Yeah, that's why they're moving.

[Katie Weber]

Ah, okay. Yeah. All right. And the theme of your Relationship with God is also in the book, too, which is just a lovely way, you know. Can you tell me a little bit about how you understand your neurodivergence through a Christian lens?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I see it like that God made me wonderfully and that he doesn't see me for my flaws.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah.

[Carla Pretorius]

I think you were speaking about in the book as well, that you were saying that, you know, God made you a certain way and there's a reason. So that's kind of like leading into that reason and using also God's support as strength for you.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, well, it kind of reminds me of the. What's the analogy of, like, trying to having a fish and a monkey climb a tree?

[Carla Pretorius]

Yes, Einstein. Right, right.

[Katie Weber]

I'm butchering that. I don't remember what the analogy is.

[Carla Pretorius]

But basically, if you measure intelligence with a fish climbing a tree, you would be seen as not so smart or something like that. I'm also not very good with analogies, but. Yeah, right.

[Katie Weber]

But that idea of that we were all created to flourish in the area in which we flourish, and so stop trying to. We also talk a lot about that in the ADHD world, or at least in this podcast, about that feeling of trying to put a square peg into a round hole and really just find the places where you fit and where you can flourish.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

And I think I got that from Temple Grannon that, like, different, not less.

[Carla Pretorius]

Right? Yeah, yeah. The quote. The quote that you were speaking about earlier, Madeline's really good in giving credit where credit is due. And that quote is from Temple Grandin where she says, I'm different, not less. Yeah. We're hoping that Temple grand is also going to read the book soon. We've sent it to her.

[Katie Weber]

Oh, wonderful. So what does the marketing part of the book entail now?

[Carla Pretorius]

So it's speaking to you, and then we're speaking to another person on Thursday. So we're speaking to an autistic influencer on Thursday. And then, Madeline, you want to do a few more podcasts and interviews, right?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, I think so.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. We're speaking to quite a few people just to. Well, not too many. We just want to kind of take it one podcast or interview at a time and then share, I think, because from my personal, maybe a little bit selfish point of view, it's because I can see how it has helped Madeline, and I can see how it could help others, too. Other young, neurodivergent individuals on this journey and just writing letters to themselves. And maybe this book is a starting point for them to see. Okay. I can also do this. I can write a letter to my younger self and maybe just accept and love me a little bit more for who I am. So, yeah, she's gotten some great reviews from people that have read it. So I'm just excited for other people to receive some help from her. Wise words, right?

[Katie Weber]

Well, like I said, I'm 50 and I found it tremendously helpful for myself and my relationship with the younger version of me that really needed a lot more validation, a lot more understanding, and a lot more help that I didn't receive. So I don't know if you were expecting a 50 year old to, to find your book is so helpful or. Or who your, who your audience you was when you were writing this book. Who did you think would be reading your book?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I think young adults and teenagers more like. But I think because some of the content is a little heavy, but I think the visuals are quite cute.

[Katie Weber]

I think that sums up what it's like to be a teenager. There are a lot of heavy things that happen to you and there are a lot of very dark adult topics in our lives that we wish we could have been sheltered from a little bit longer. But then also allowing that child to still exist and color and that playful side. And I think that's kind of the beautiful and terrifying part of being a teenager.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, I think an adult as well. I'm 41 now and I feel like I just need shiny things around me to make myself remember who I am and still have that childlike view of the world. I absolutely love being childlike still. That's why I like working with younger individuals too.

[Katie Weber]

Same, same. I think it's. It's new to me to work with teenagers, although I have two teenagers at home and absolutely my favorite population to work with. And I feel like, you know, a lot of what is needed is just validation and understanding and not, you know, reinforcing this idea like you do in your book, Madeline, that like, you're not broken, there's nothing wrong with you. And like you said, Carla, there's no such thing as bad feelings. Right. We can feel what we need to feel and it's really about how we cope and what tools we have in our toolbox.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. And then no judgment. I think that's important. No judgment towards yourself and then towards the person that you're with as well. I think that's really just having a space where it's judgment free for ones. For us neurodivergent individuals, we just don't want to be judged, can say what we want to say.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah. But that reminds me, Madeleine, I really liked what you had to say about rejection. Sensitive dysphoria, which I always talk about. Like, everybody remembers exactly where they were the first time they heard that term because it says so much. I feel like it explains so much about our experience with emotions and the lack of judgment and the forgiveness you had for yourself about, you know, apologizing a lot or being really, you know, not, you know, feeling like you were having a really, really abnormal or intense reaction to a situation. And instead of saying, like, here's how you could not have that reaction, you really was wrote to yourself about, like, of course you're going to have that reaction. This is. You have big emotions. It makes complete sense. And I think we could all use a little bit more of that approach. Right. Which is that curiosity, of course you're going to react this way. Sometimes I think we jump to the, like, how can I be normal? And how can I stop being more like myself? And actually, I feel like you use the term normal in your book, too. I'm curious what you would say to somebody who, you know, a younger person who says, I just want to be normal.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I'd say I'm still trying to figure that out myself. Like, it's still hard for me, too, but I'm learning more and more how to be myself.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, right.

[Carla Pretorius]

Such a. Such a good answer. Because I think, like, we. Sometimes we do want to just say, like, oh, I just wish I didn't have this sensitivity, or I wish it was easier for me to meet new people. And I don't stress this much when I do lives, for example. I mean, I've been doing this for 20 years, and I still get super anxious, but it's kind of like you're managing it, but understanding being okay with it and then working through it. Like Madeline was saying, it's something that we're trying to figure out is okay. That's all right, too. We don't have to have all the answers.

[Katie Weber]

Right.

Yeah.

And then I think after that, getting to a place where you realize, oh, it's actually my intensity that is my gift. And seeing the superpower side, I don't like that word, but I think there are ways in which we can start to recognize a lot of the time that the things that caused us the most suffering at one point end up being the things that we love and appreciate the most about ourselves.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, definitely. The way that we see the world. I think Madeline's way of seeing the detail, the tiny detail of the axolotls, for example.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, I noticed, like, things that other people will not notice, like certain details, for example, like if there's something hidden. Like, I'm really good at the hidden picture books. I don't know if you know what that is, but it's like, where you try to find certain things that are hidden, like, every time I can find it.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, right. I love that. I guess my next question would be, what do you love most about your neurodivergence? Your autism, Both of you, or, Carla, your adhd?

[Carla Pretorius]

Do you want to go first, Madeline, or do you want me to go first?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

You could go first.

[Carla Pretorius]

So for me, I would say kind of what you said, Katie, with the intensity, but also just that intuitive sense when I meet somebody for the first time and I know that this is just going to be the person that I want to talk with. I think we kind of flock together, us very intuitive, empathic individuals. So I love that I work in this field because I have the honor of meeting neurodivergent individuals on a daily basis and learning from all of my clients. I want to say friends, but I need to stay professional. But, yeah, I think it's. It's that intense love that I'm seeing the connection with neurodivergent individuals, even if it is on a zoom call. And I feel like we really know how to connect on a deeper level. Whereas I think a lot of times in the world today, we're missing that connection and people are just waiting to talk or respond. Whereas I think with neurodivergent individuals, we really do get to the second layer and the third layer of connection. I don't know if you want to add to what. What do you love about the way that you see the world, Madeline?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I think I love that, like, I'm more understanding of people with disabilities because I have a disability. So I think that's something and that just that I see the world differently through a different lens.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, right.

[Katie Weber]

Carla, as you were talking, you reminded me of what my son said when he was younger. He said, I'm like you, mom. I like the big talk, not the small talk. And I've often said, like, I know when I'm talking to somebody who's neurodivergent because I feel, like, completely relaxed. Like, I've just, like, taken off a too tight pair of pants or taken my bra off or something where I'm like, ah. I just feel like we're speaking the same language. And I take it for granted on the podcast, but it's when I'm kind of out in the world talking to other people that I realize how stressful it can be to just talk to other people.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. And just noticing, like, my body posture, everything, you know, when I'm not doing my sessions, I start, like, seeing how my shoulders are going up, and I'm like, okay, I'm masking. I shouldn't be doing this. Actually, Madeleine's got a nice letter of masking in her book, too. But that feeling of that you need to pretend and smile and laugh at the right times, that is exhausting.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah. Sorry, I was just pulling up the When I realize I'm masking journal entry. I have the book up in front of me now. Yeah. What do you do in those moments when you are. When you realize you're in, like, your whole body is tense so that you're masking?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

I try just to recognize what I'm doing. And then, like, I. I do mask in front of people that I don't know that well, but in front of people that I do know, I feel free to be myself.

[Carla Pretorius]

Effy. I remember sometimes, Madeleine, when we talk, you'll say to me things like, oh, I was just laughing there, but I felt a bit uncomfortable. Like, you would notice it, and you would actually say it to me sometimes. So. Which I think is quite good because that makes you more aware of when you're doing it. Like, I. I would now, when I start laughing in a group, like, because I've got social anxiety, I would pause and be like, I. It wasn't funny. I didn't even know what the joke was. I just saw people laugh, so I laughed. And that makes me more anxious because what if they're going to ask me questions about the joke? You know, Like, I think the past trauma comes back. So I would pause, like, what Madeline does sometimes with our sessions or times together, and just say, that wasn't actually what I felt. So I would step away and just take a breath and just notice how anxious I am and maybe just go to the bathroom and take a few deep breaths and then go out again.

[Katie Weber]

I love that I'm going to try that. Because even like you said, just in that moment, giving yourself permission to say, that's not how I, you know, I had that reaction, and I understand why I had that reaction, but that's not actually how I'm feeling. And just naming that, I think, like, even as you were just saying it, Carla, I started to relax because I've been in that situation so often where it's like, why is everybody laughing? What do I do right now?

[Carla Pretorius]

I love. Yeah, yeah.

[Katie Weber]

Now I'm curious. Do you, Madeline, do you feel like Thailand is more accepting of disability and neurodivergence or differences or given the fact that we're all over the world right now and in so many different cultures? I'm curious to hear your. Both of your opinions about how neurodivergence is viewed where you are.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, sure. Can my mom come in?

[Katie Weber]

And of course, Angie, welcome.

[Carla Pretorius]

Thanks.

[Angie (Madeline's Mom)]

There is very limited access to help for neurodivergent people here. Not many services, not much of an understanding of it. It's actually seen as a curse, and they hide their children away or. My husband teaches English in some of the schools, and he'll notice neurodivergent kids, and they're just in the back of the room. There's not services for them at the schools. We work with a foundation that serves families and kids with disabilities, and we have one occupational therapy place here in the city that I live. And some of the kids that we work with, they go for therapy once every six weeks, maybe, you know, so not a. Not a lot of understanding or help for them.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah.

[Katie Weber]

Well, I hope. I hope some of them are going to get a chance to read your book, Madeline, and hear your perspective.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, I think Angie shows it to some of the kids that she's helping. So. And she has seen some of the strategies that the kids are utilizing. So that's. That's great. I think it's, you know, that's where it starts. Like, some family is helping others, and then it's got this kind of, like, snowball effect, hopefully. But, yeah, even in Portugal, I mean, I love living here, and I do think that there are some great initiatives focusing on neurodivergence, and it's definitely evolving the understanding of autism, adhd, but it's still not where it should be. And I think we're at a narrative at the moment where it's us versus them, which I also don't like. I don't love that narrative of like, okay, so let's make accommodations for neurodivergent individuals. Whereas I would see true inclusion as let's learn from everybody and to make it better for everybody. Because I still think if you're doing, let's accommodate, accommodate, accommodate. We're seeing us ADHDers or autistic individuals or ODHDers are seen as we're, you know, it's a little bit of a charity feeling to me. It's like, oh, we'll do this for you, to make it better for you. But it's actually the accommodations that we require as neurodivergent individuals. Better communication, a sensory friendly environment to learn in, understanding, curiosity. You know, those things are great for everybody. They're not just great for neurodivergent individuals. So I think we can optimize an environment from learning our needs per se, but then not seeing it as it's a charity case, it really is going to make everything better. Our empathy towards one another in general. Like just learning from people and not judging it, being curious and not saying that what you're doing or thinking is wrong. Staying curious with other people, I think it's just a better way of being human.

[Katie Weber]

Right, I agree. I mean, I think, you know, accommodations benefit everybody a lot of the time. Right. I think. Is it called universal design? I think, you know, that idea of. I'm thinking about the. A curb at a corner and the dip in the curve, which is, you know, there for. For wheelchairs, but then it benefits everybody. And I think, you know, if we took more of that approach, like you said, instead of the rolling eyes and, well, if we accommodate you, we have to accommodate everybody. Like, well, then, yeah, let's do that. Because they really do benefit everybody.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah.

[Katie Weber]

You know, I think, you know, one of the conversations I have a lot on this podcast, too, is the. As we expand the spectrum of neurodivergence and who is under that umbrella, a lot of people feel like it's a disservice to those people who are in the highest need category in terms of it's watering it down or taking away services from. Or we're making it more difficult for people with high support needs who need services. And I feel like how you just phrased it, Carla, in terms of, like, well, we should be looking at how we can make. Make everything as accessible as possible for everyone is a much. It's a nice antidote to that argument.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, Yeah. I think if we box people less and we see it as, okay, well, we can learn from everybody and, you know, we can. We can accommodate everybody's different types of profiles. I think we're just at a better stage because once we start polarizing, there's always going to be a. This is better than that kind of narrative, which I don't believe in. So, yeah, it's an ongoing evolution, hopefully for the better of all of us.

[Katie Weber]

Carla, Your website is carlaprotorius.com, right?

[Carla Pretorius]

Yes.

[Katie Weber]

And then I'll have a link to, I guess, Amazon for Madeline Yearbook in the show notes and on my website. But is there anything we'll haven't covered or anything you still wanted to talk about? About the book or about your journey?

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Yeah, I guess that's it.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Katie Weber]

What about you, Carla? Is there anything you want to make sure we.

[Carla Pretorius]

Well, I think with the. What I've learned from Madeleine and her process is that just finding the confidence in whatever you like and going with it and finding a safe space to do so really makes a massive difference. So if it is with the therapist, it's with the therapist, or if it's with a parent or a friend or finding a mentor in a. In a way, and I'm really honored that I've been mentoring. Well, she's been mentoring me more, but mentoring each other. But I think just having also the support from parents saying, look, this is your space. We give you free will to go with the process. Her parents have been wonderful in that regard. They've given me a lot of trust working with her on a weekly basis. But I think it is. If you don't have that. If you don't have that support from parents to find somebody that you can feel safe with. If it is an animal, start with an animal and then move over to finding a person. Finding a person that accepts you for who you are so that you can also feel like you can go with what works for you. So if it is writing or if it is drawing or if it is, you know, like, doing arts or learning more in the fields, just find something that you absolutely love and accepting yourself through that process, I think it helps a lot with the confidence. Yeah. I don't know if that made sense, but that's my ADHD way of saying it.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I was just going to say, I noticed you didn't say find an AI chatbot.

[Carla Pretorius]

No, no. I'm not a. Not a big fan of that.

[Katie Weber]

Find an animal or a human or something tangible where you could feel safe to be yourself. I think it's beautiful.

[Carla Pretorius]

I think with AI, I think it's great in rewriting the way that we initially want to say something to another person. I use it a lot in saying, okay, please just rewrite this in a nicer way or a more professional way. But I think if we really want that true connection, authentic connection, it needs to be with a living being that's not just saying things that are out there already. I think it needs to be with somebody that is actually just sitting with you and listening. That, I think is not what AI is giving because it's waiting to respond and validate whatever you're saying, which is also not always the best psychological approach. Right.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, I know. I feel like that could be a whole other episode.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, exactly. Let's not get into that.

[Katie Weber]

Well, I, for one, just want to thank you for this project and thank you for publishing this book. It was a really. It was very healing to read it. And as somebody on the other side of the world, I really just am so glad that it's out there, and I'll do what I can to help make sure other people can get a chance to read it. And thank you. I wish you both all the best, and it's been a real pleasure to meet you and have this experience. So thank you.

[Madeline Grace Matthews]

Thank you for having me.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. Thank you so much, Katie. This has been lovely. We could definitely continue talking to you, and it's been a whole hour already.

[Katie Weber]

So I brought Carla back so that she and I can have just some time to kind of process the interview with Madeline. But also I wanted to hear a little bit more about you, Carla, and the work that you're doing and the research that you're doing, especially the research with. Well, I guess your research is on women in adhd. So can you tell me a little bit more about what you're working on?

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me back. It was lovely to speak with you and Madeline. And so what I do is I'm a therapist, and I'm currently busy focusing on my PhD, specifically on ADHD in women. I don't think that there's enough of a focus on women specifically, and I think every gender should be looked at differently, and because we present so differently. So my goal through research, which is a big goal, I think, is to combine academic writings and journals and what we know in academia with lived experience. And because I have ADHD myself, I feel like I can hopefully bring those two together. I think that as clinicians, we don't focus enough on what is actually going on. Not just our inattention, but the anxiety that we feel when people say that we're not paying attention or the low mood that we're feeling because we can't keep relationships going. You know, it's not about the symptoms as much as the feelings and the emotions that we have surrounding those kind of characteristics or symptoms. I don't think I answered your question, though.

[Katie Weber]

You did, actually. It made me think about, you know, a lot of what I experienced as somebody who was diagnosed with depression and then anxiety long before I was diagnosed with adhd. Is the way that I think a lot of the time in the therapy world, there's the eagerness to diagnose immediately or, you know, to label what it is we're experiencing. And so many of the women I've spoken to and the clients I've worked with had negative experiences with therapy because there was a sense that, like, you're just depressed or you just have anxiety and you're kind of put in this box and then the treatment is based on that one presenting concern and not kind of, you know, panning back and looking at the whole picture in terms of like, what led to this depression, what led to this. I think, you know, there's such a focus on evidence based practices and like solving the issue as quickly as possible and not really thinking about the neurobiology behind some of these diagnoses.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly it. The neurobiology of it. We need to look at the neurodivergent lens through a neurodivergent lens. Because if we are just going to manage or treat anxiety or depression, we're not looking at why are we going through these intense emotions and feelings. We're looking at you shouldn't be anxious in this situation because you're safe. Okay, but what about before that? All of the thought processes that led to not feeling safe or psychologically safe in that situation. And that's the neurodivergent lens that we really need to understand as clinicians and provide support for that. Because otherwise we're always going to feel like we're doing something wrong. And I think that's quite a common feeling for us neurodivergent individuals is what did we do wrong now? Which is horrible, right?

[Katie Weber]

Yeah.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah.

[Katie Weber]

I love the way you put things. Thank you. So now you mostly work with ADHD or how did you start working with autistic clients like Madeline?

[Carla Pretorius]

So I've worked with neurodivergent individuals before. We were called neurodivergent individuals when 21 years ago. I started in the field and I kind of just fell in love with the way that individuals thought differently. And it was first in America. I was actually on a tennis scholarship in the States and I was a tennis coach. And they used to put me always with the ADHD kids or the autistic kids. And they said, oh, you're good with those kids. And I mean, now we know the reason, because I connect so well with them. But I just, I love the way that they thought outside the box and they pushed the limits and they would ask random Questions that wasn't, you know, that weren't really related to tennis. And I was like, these minds are amazing. So that was my mission. When I went back to South Africa, where I'm from, I wanted to work with an autistic child. And this is back in the day when you still opened the newspaper and you looked for jobs in the newspaper, an actual newspaper. And I just saw this ad that said, therapists needed. No experience needed. We will train you on the job to work with an autistic girl. And she was three at that point. And I started working with her. Her mom doesn't mind me saying her name. Her name is Akilah. I'm still very good friends with her. She's 23 now. She still messages me every day. So, yeah, that's how I started. And throughout the journey, I think I realized, okay, the way. The reason why I connect so well with autistic individuals and ADHDers is because I see the world similarly. And my therapist then said, yeah, but it's because you've got adhd. And then later mentioned that probably aud.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, right.

Yeah. I mean, that's always. That's the thing I'm experiencing right now as I'm in my internship is seeing neurodivergence in every single client and really kind of trying to figure out, like, is there even such thing as somebody, a client who is just depressed or just anxious? And I feel like it makes sense that, as, you know, especially working with teenagers, neurodivergence, like, that's where we end up. We end up in therapy. We end up in crisis clinics. But because like you said, there's that narrative of what's wrong with me in terms of my worldview and always feeling a little different and other. Have you ever worked with a client where you were like, this is not neurodivergence. This is just depression, or this is just anxiety.

[Carla Pretorius]

I, you know, I specialize in neurodivergence, so my clients usually find me because of my socials, and I'm so focused on neurodivergence, which I absolutely love working in that field. And I think that we should specialize as therapists and become more and more knowledgeable about the, you know, the different types of conditions and profiles that we work with because there's so much to learn. But to answer your question, I don't see it as neurodivergent versus neurotypical. And I also think it's a bit of a dangerous narrative because then we're not seeing everybody as one. And we can learn from one another. So I do see everyone as having a specific profile. So you might be more inclined towards a low mood or anxiety or, you know, more of an ADHD type of way of working or an autistic way of working. And then you have like some of these other traits like anxiety or OCD or depression. But I don't see it as like, you just get this normal person. I think a person masks really well. But there's a definitely, and this is a bit controversial because I'm now saying the opposite, but there's definitely people that think that a certain way of doing things or finishing tasks or interacting with individuals on a very surface level is normal. And that's fine for them. Maybe it is that, and I don't want to offend anyone, but maybe it is that they're not looking a little bit further and questioning those societal norms and really leaning into their neurodivergent potential brain. Maybe that's it. I don't think we know for sure other than what we know in neuropsych, where we do know that ADHD brains are differently wired and autistic brains, you know, some parts are differently lit up with certain tasks. So I think we can take from science and then also maybe say that we're all a little bit different and we need to embrace it and not be as scared of the differences so that we can actually learn from one another and not make accommodations for a group.

[Katie Weber]

Right. Yeah. And I think where I get concerned or where I'm mostly curious about the blurring of the lines in terms of high support needs and low support needs, and this idea of if there's a lot of people who have low support needs who are becoming the, the mouthpieces for neurodivergence and the autism community, are they doing a disservice to the families with really, really high support needs who require, you know, this to be taken seriously, quote, unquote, or you know, who. There are a lot of parents who feel like that the expansion of the definition of what is or isn't autistic and what is or isn't neurodivergent. And as we begin to understand more about masking and the ways in which it presents in different genders, et, what do you say to families that feel like their children aren't, or worry that their children aren't going to get the help that they need or that people won't take them seriously enough in terms of their need for accommodations?

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, it's a difficult question because it's a very hard process for parents to know what's going to happen in the future. Right. And there are so many stressors that they have. Just being a parent of any child, you know, I take my hat off to all parents. But to know that your, your child will need accommodations and you don't know what that would look like or if they will receive that, that's. That's very stressful. And I, I would say to try as much as possible to trust the process and know that there are people really, I'm trying my best and I know so many other advocates that are fighting for, you know, a neuro affirming environment, schools and workplaces, and we are evolving. But try as much as possible to just stay in the moment and just be with your child and go with them because they're going to, they're going to surprise you. I've seen it time and time again with the very many children that I've worked with that they surprise our expectations if they just have that space of they can just be themselves. In terms of the high versus low support needs, that's a question that I think is good to have. But I think we should focus more on the awareness. You know, like it's good to, to. For anyone to be aware that there are individuals with certain accommodations. Whether it's high needs or low needs. The more we speak, the better. And obviously, you know, it is more difficult if you're a non speaker to get your word, the words out there. But there are individuals there, you know, like Ido Kadar. There are many individuals that write like Madeleine too, and it's good to read those writings. And I think it's, you know, it's a difficult. Again, it's a difficult question because I feel like I present as high, you know, like highly intelligent and people think, oh, she, you know, she can eloquently sometimes say what she wants. But I have so much anxiety, Katie. Like I, as I'm sitting here, my neck is completely red. I am, you know, I'm scratching my nails kind of off because I'm nervous. I've been doing this for 21 years, but people don't see that. So is that low support? Like. Yes. Okay. I don't need somebody to sit here with me, but after this I need like a decompression hour, you know, so. And I'm not comparing, I'm just saying that everyone is going through something. Everyone. And maybe it is up to us to just know that we can give anyone and everyone a little bit of space. And grace and just be curious about their journey. And if there's something we can do, I think people are innately good. If there's something that we can do to make the life of our neighbor a little bit better, wouldn't we do it? I think we would if we know.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah. Well, and as you were speaking, it reminded me of what you said in our earlier conversation too, about, you know, the reminder that accommodations are a societal issue. They're not an individual issue.

Right.

And so is there some, like, consolation in knowing that the more mouthpieces there are for an issue highlighting the societal deficits as opposed to saying we need more individual accommodations? Kind of what you were talking about as we widen the lens a little bit, that is actually could be argued as helpful for looking at this as a societal issue and not highlighting the individual issues and what they need. And I suppose as a parent, especially with my own kids looking at, I need them to have what they need right now, and I might not have the time or bandwidth to really think about the societal issue. So I hope there's ways in which these different ends of the spectrum in the community can be working together for, like you said, for the same goal of wider acceptance and understanding.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, I think I was speaking to two people, Fred and Andy, yesterday, about this. This concept that we're talking about. They do irregular training, which is I love the name for them at organizations. And what they were saying is that there aren't really, like, specific things that we can tell people to accommodate for neurodivergent individuals in the workplace, but what we can do is take away barriers. And I think that's for all people, really. A great, A great focus point is how can we take away barriers? You know, like when back in the day when we didn't have ramps for wheelchairs, now we have ramps for wheelchairs. And it actually helps a lot of people. I don't want to climb stairs when I'm really tired of the muitai. The ramp is really nice, you know, and I can also help somebody that's going up with their wheelchair if they need help, or an older lady that has like, groceries or something. So it's helping everybody. I think it's to see, like, you know, this whole design, universal design that we were speaking about as well. It's like changing for the better, for everyone. And then it's less of a this is what you need to do for my child or for me, which I think can get a bit frustrating for the person advocating and also the people hearing it. Because we don't want to as humans, we don't want to be wrong. Right. We don't want to be hearing what we did wrong. But if you tell me, Carla, I love coming to your dinner, I don't do well with sound or noise. I'm going to sit in the corner. I don't feel offended. But I might feel offended if you said, as Katie, like, I'm just making up this conversation now, but if you said, look, Carla, it's always loud at your place, I can't come anymore. That I feel like is a personal attack. So, I mean, not personally me, but you know that usually people would take that as a personal attack. So I think it's the way that we communicate our needs and also stating that it's something that we can do communally together. I think it's the connection that we're missing. Again, like, it's not us versus them, it's let's hold our hands together, you know, like during COVID time. I honestly think that was one of the best eras for neurodivergent individuals. We felt connected, but we didn't feel like we had to do all this social interaction. And I know, I'm sorry if it was a very intense period for a lot of people because of the tragedies. I think for neurodivergent individuals, that feeling of, we're one, we're connected, but we don't have to hold hands, there's space. That was a really nice analogy for me of how we can work together.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, right. Well, I've often said during lockdown was the first time in my life I ever felt regulated or remembered feeling regulated. And I was diagnosed at the beginning of the pandemic because of a lot of the stressors happening. And my therapist, like yours, kept recommending to me that I look into adhd. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm, I, I can sit, I can't get off the couch. I'm not hyperactive. But, like, realizing that the quiet and you know, I think I also realized that I was what I like to call a gregarious introvert. I'm like, which I think, you know, a lot of people. I don't know if a lot of.

Neurodivergence feel this way, but, like, I.

Always thought I was, couldn't be an introvert because I loved talking to people and I loved meeting people and I loved, you know, being out and about. And so I figured I couldn't be an introvert. I didn't really realize that introversion doesn't mean that you're shy or that you are antisocial. And so there was that feeling of like, oh, I'm regulated like this. It wasn't. Probably wasn't even a term I had learned before the pandemic, too. So I think the pandemic offered us a lot of opportunities to look within and so say, like, oh, what? Who am I?

[Carla Pretorius]

And just enjoying that space, you know, like, I enjoyed the quiet and the space and being able to do my own thing and not feel the pressure of, oh, I need to do it with somebody that I really enjoyed. And I took from that, okay, I'm gonna continue going to the movies by myself or going to a restaurant and having a meal by myself. And I. I feel a lot less. Less anxious. One tip that I would say is just take a book with, because as soon as we notice, oh, we're out in the wild in society, we're like, oh, should I be on my phone? Like, should I pretend that my date didn't arrive? Or whatever? But no, if you have a book there, you don't look peculiar.

[Katie Weber]

Are there any myths about autism, especially in adolescence, that you feel like you see a lot or that you wish you could dispel?

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, so many. The one that always pops up for me is the friendship one. I see most of my clients are lonely, and most of them really want to have friends that accept them for who they are. They just want to be themselves with another person and just like, parallel play and feel like they're not being looked at under a magnifying gloss. So I think that's. That's one of the biggest ones. And then also just the. Yeah, I mean, the social part is definitely one thing, but another thing is that we often believe that autistic individuals have these very intense statements or thought processes, and it's because they believe in that and that's it. And they don't think about your point of view, but it's actually because. Because they have this sense of justice, and they know that this is the right thing to do, and they know that they are going to get in trouble or not be looked at the right way, for example, or somebody is going to think that they're too intense. They know this, we know this, but it's something that we can't help. And it's not to hurt or to be the contrarian. Autistic individuals really do just. Just. It's like something that they can't not state or say, my ex is autistic. And he would say things and he would just. That is the truth. And somebody would be like, yeah, but can you just say it a little bit more gentle? And he's like, why? Because this is what I'm trying to state. And it wasn't to hurt other people. I think it's very much a feeling of being misunderstood a lot of times, and that pushes people away. So it, like, it has this cycle of, okay, so then I'm not gonna have friends, and I'm being lone. You know, I'm gonna be lonely and something wrong with me. And then it's. It's quite a negative snow. Snowball effect. That's quite sad. So I would say try not to get offended by autistic individuals because they're not trying to hurt you. It's how their brain works. They want to get this point across for the greater good. You know, sometimes it's like, it's just factual. I just need you to know this, and it's not such a big deal, you know, it's okay. And then we can move on and speak about our interests and really just get to know each other and stay curious about our amazing brains. Yeah, very well put.

[Katie Weber]

And I think also have some curiosity, too. That's one of the things that I find really frustrating for just now in working with a lot of neurodivergent young people. Like you said, it's really just about having curiosity about who they are and why they think the way they think. And I've sort of reflected on my own rigid thinking. A lot of my rigid thinking shows up in curiosity, where it's like, I don't. I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I, like, have this dogged pursuit of the answer in a way that irritates a lot of people, where they feel like, well, why does it matter? And I'm like, I don't know. It just does.

[Carla Pretorius]

Does. But it does.

[Katie Weber]

It does, right?

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, it's something. You can't get over it. Like, if somebody says something that is inconsistent. And I've been in so many arguments about this. Like, if my professor says one thing and then the next day she contradicts what she said, I have to point it out. I have to. I can't be quiet and just say, oh, yeah, water from a duck's back, or whatever that saying is, I'm just. I'm not a duck. I'm gonna state it.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah.

[Carla Pretorius]

So.

[Katie Weber]

So tell me a little bit more about aims. So I love. I love your website, which has, like, all the different organizations that you're part.

Of, I'm like, like, if the signs.

Weren'T there all along, I love that where it's like, you know, the hardest question to ask somebody with ADHD is like, so what do you do? And you're like, oh, God. So I adhd, so you. But how did you get part of Ames? Is that how you found Madeline's family or. No, they approached you out of the.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah, I think they actually. Yeah, they did get me through Ames Global. So Ames Global is the initial company that I started with Nanette Berta. We place therapists us to live with families, mainly of autistic kids, neurodivergent kids in general. We still do that, but that's not my main focus now. It's kind of running in the background. We have our families all over and they've got their au pairs and therapists living with them, which is really nice. I did my master's thesis actually on the efficacy of having a therapist in the house. And I mean, as you can imagine it, it's really positive. It's a positive experience for parents to have somebody there that can just take or give them some respite, which I think parents really need, and just a moment to not worry, just go on a date night. So that went really well. But As a true ADHDer, I wanted to do so many more things. So I do quite a lot of stuff. So I am a clinical lead for three startups where I help with the direction, the clinical direction and just kind of the framework, the psychological framework of things. I am a therapist. I do one on ones groups. I do ADHD woman groups as well with ADHD doers. So that's an Instagram page that I work with. And then what else did I do? My PhD. I'm learning Portuguese. There's. There's a few. There are a few things that I'm missing, but I think it's that, that's. I found that if I don't have all these different projects that I will create drama in my life. And that's what I did when I was younger. So now I'm so busy with all of these projects and I'm so stimulated that I love it. And, you know, contrary to what my psychiatrist said, he said, carla, you're very creative, but are you going to actually create something? I do, you know, like, it was quite offensive. Excuse me. No, but he's. He's actually a nice guy. But, you know, he was trying to push me to get my PhD done. I believe that we definitely have that sweet spot as ADHD years where we tend to overstimulate ourselves or under stimulate when we're overwhelmed. But there's a sweet spot where it's okay, I know that I have enough projects right now. I have got like five big things that I'm working on and I'm doing Muay Thai and, you know, like rock climbing and so on. And that is enough. It's like a feeling. And I know as a scientist I shouldn't be saying this, but it's not a scientific fact. It's just I feel like I shouldn't add anything and if I take away anything, then I'm going to be bored. So I'm at that sweet spot right now. And I would highly recommend finding each person's sweet spot, finding those passion projects so that it's not just 8 to 5 work that we have to do, unfortunately, sometimes for money, but it is like, okay, I'm doing my own projects, I'm creating, I'm being creative and passionate about something and I'm starting something new. Hobby helping. Why is that a bad thing? I've done so many things in my life, and it's because I do it for six months, buy the gear and then I sell it and then I do something else. It's fine.

[Katie Weber]

Yeah, right. Don't question the process.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yes, that's.

[Katie Weber]

That's what I've come to come to learn, which is, yeah, I. I know. I feel that most at tax time when my husband has his 1W2 and I have like 18W2 from all the different business ventures and income streams and all the different projects that I'm working on. It's like, yeah, no, that's how it works for me. But I like that idea of that sweet spot because that's another thing I've often said. One of the most difficult things for me about having ADHD is, is knowing and understanding when to say no to myself. Because I will always want to do. You know, I will always. As I'm driving home, I'll look and just be like, oh, I want to become a librarian. I'm going to go be. Do that.

[Carla Pretorius]

Right.

[Katie Weber]

Or my big one is I desperately want to volunteer for the local fire department. And I'm like, no, that's not something you have time for. But I looked, you know, I'll just sort of go down these mental diversions. And so I think it's like, like for me, I found the joy in just like daydreaming about things without actually following through. But sometimes I'll say, like, saying no to myself is really, really hard, and people won't understand what I'm talking about. I'm like, well, you don't, like, chase after every thought as it happens. That's not a thing.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. And now imagine, Katie, I'm working with clients, and I've got about eight clients a day. And then they would tell me about all these amazing hobbies, and I'm like, Like, I can do needlework. I can. I can. I can start candle making. Like, and then I have to really tell myself, like, pause, reflect, you know, like, take a breath. Maybe just be happy for your client that they found something that they like. No, but it is. It's. Yeah, it definitely exposes us to a lot of ideas. And I think that's one of the beauties of ADHD is we are so creative and curious. You know, we want to learn about everything. If somebody asked me once, actually there was the other day they asked me, do you want to live? Would you live forever? I was like, yeah, for sure. I would want to live another lifetime, at least to get everything. More things done. And I think that's what makes us also quite fun in our friendship circles. Yeah.

[Katie Weber]

Well said.

[Carla Pretorius]

Great.

[Katie Weber]

Well, thank you for coming back and sharing with me a little bit more. And is there anything you're working on for the new year or anything we haven't covered?

[Carla Pretorius]

So for the new year, I am doing the ADHD women groups with ADHD doers. And I really need to. I'm starting next week, actually, for a festive anxiety. So that's, you know, festive period anxiety that we all have. I feel like all these expectations and so on, and then I'm also doing. I really need to focus on my studies because that's the one thing that I'm not so excited about. So I think for now I'm just doing. I'm trying to carve out time and that just if I can give one strategy, it is to have, like, these carved out times for passion projects and then carved out times for the things that we just absolutely need to do, because otherwise we'll always go and lean towards the passion projects. But, yeah, no, no, I think we covered everything. Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute joy. And go, adhd, dears. Great.

[Katie Weber]

Well, if you have a link or anything, I will put that in the show. Notes for the women's group is a virtual group.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's a virtual group. Yes. We do it weekly.

[Katie Weber]

Oh, that's Wonderful.

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. So they can. I mean, they can. I'll send you my Instagram page. I think you might have it already. Therapy Neurodivergent. And then they can just contact me and. Yeah, that's just a fun, fun group for women.

[Katie Weber]

Awesome.

Yeah, that sounds great. So go follow Carla and sign up.

For the women's group through ADHD Doers. Right?

[Carla Pretorius]

Yeah. Thank you. Perfect.

[Katie Weber]

There you have it. Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the.

Women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to womenandadhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd.

Like to apply to be a guest.

On this podcast, visit womeninadhd.com podcastguest and.

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And they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's.

Not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has adhd and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage.

Take care till then.