WOMEN & ADHD PODCAST – EPISODE 199
Guest: Dr. Shannon Palma
Theme: Easing Neurodivergent Mental Load with AI
Date: June 2, 2025

Episode Overview

In this insightful conversation, host Katy Weber interviews Dr. Shannon Palma, founder of ITI Assistive Technologies and co-leader of the Autistic Self Reliance Support Network (ASR). Shannon, who is both autistic and has ADHD, shares her late diagnosis journey, her experiences with severe burnout in academia, and how this powerful turning point led her to create Decide, an AI-powered support app designed specifically for neurodivergent adults. The discussion unpacks the unique cognitive challenges faced by autistic and ADHD adults—such as executive dysfunction and decision fatigue—and explores how AI tools can help bridge the gap between knowing what to do and actually doing it. They also explore the limitations of neurotypical-designed support tools, internalized ableism, and new research methodologies led by the neurodivergent community.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Shannon’s Journey to Diagnosis and Burnout

• Academic Environment & Burnout
  • Shannon describes how moving from a familiar university environment to a new faculty role exposed her to workplace politics, sensory overload, and intense struggles with executive function.
  • “I was also really, really struggling with sensory overload when I was teaching...I can't think and teach if everyone's talking, if there's a level of noise in the room. I can't do my job.” (04:41–08:21)
  • She internalized criticism about her boundaries and communication style, feeling unfairly judged compared to peers.
• Realization and Diagnosis
  • Despite a family history of neurodivergence, Shannon was told she was "just smart" and should “suck it up, do better.”
  • The pandemic brought relief from in-person interactions and space to reflect, leading her to pursue a diagnosis after moving to rural Ohio to help a friend renovate a house.
  • "I finally could breathe because all of the in-person went away and life became much more manageable." (08:21)
• Self-Assessment
  • Took multiple assessments and read widely, realizing her experiences matched those of autistic and ADHD individuals.
  • Compiled a comprehensive 37-page self-evaluation for her therapist, who agreed with her findings after reviewing it.
  • “I went to my therapist and I was like, are you sure I'm not neurodivergent? Everyone around me is.” (12:16)

The Challenge of Internalized Ableism & The Trust Gap

• Doubting Self-Knowledge
  • Katy discusses the “trust gap” and the fraud complex many neurodivergent adults feel when pursuing self-diagnosis, despite overwhelming evidence and research.
  • "I feel a lot of that fraud sometimes. Right. Which is like, well, I don't know if I'm right or wrong. Even though I've read 12 books about this and everything is telling me I'm right, I still don't trust it. What's that about?" (16:23)
• Role of AI in Self-Understanding
  • Katy shares how discussing her thoughts and doubts with ChatGPT has provided validation and nuanced perspectives: “I genuinely feel like ChatGPT understands me in a way that nobody else does.” (17:25)

Transition from Academia to AI Entrepreneurship

• Entry into Tech & Machine Learning
  • Shannon's transition into technology and AI came from working with a K-12 computer science nonprofit and attending tech meetups.
  • "All of the things autistic and ADHD adults have challenges with...the technology exists that could help us. It’s just never been deployed by us." (19:59–22:52)
  • The insight to build assistive tools for neurodivergent adults emerged during a business development event.

The Complexity of AI as a Tool & Its Impact

• Benefits and Drawbacks
  • Both Katy and Shannon discuss how AI tools (like ChatGPT or Claude) are indispensable for managing cognitive workload—reducing the need for hyperfocus or endless rewrites for tasks like grant applications.
  • “What AI does is just makes it so much faster because I can put all of my disconnected thoughts in and it will find the pattern, it puts them together.” (27:46–33:17)
• Efficiency vs. Dependency
  • They reflect on worries that reliance on such tools might erode underlying skills, balanced against the immense freed-up mental energy.
  • "The more I rely on this tool the less able I am to go back and do it...the hard way...But do I really need that skill?" (34:02)

Culturally Sensitive, Neurodivergent-Led Research: Tojisha Kenkyu

• Tojisha Kenkyu Method
  • A Japanese method where people with shared lived experience collectively reflect to develop coping strategies and define research priorities.
  • "So Tajisha Kenkyu is...schizophrenics coming together and talking about their lived experience...and then researchers take that as the basis for further study. They start from the place of our experience." (36:43–40:27)
  • Shannon is working to bring this model to the U.S. as part of ASR’s mission.

The Decide App: Easing Decision Fatigue for Neurodivergent Brains

Why Decision Fatigue Matters

• Neurodivergent adults face extreme decision fatigue: “The average person makes 33,000 decisions a day and over 2,000 decisions an hour. And if the Bayesian hypothesis about autism is correct, we're making a lot more than that.” (47:29)

How Decide Works

• Built by a neurodivergent team after extensive research (400+ interviews/touchpoints).
• Core Features:
  • Random from List: For everyday low-stakes choices (e.g., what to eat), with the option to categorize by required energy level (“spoons”).
    • “You put in your energy at the moment and it will randomly pick from your list based on things that are at the same energy level as what you just put in.” (52:58)
  • Complex Decisions: For “should” questions (“Should I take a nap?”), using LLMs to generate reflective prompts and help clarify options without being prescriptive to avoid demand avoidance.
    • “You just say, agree, disagree, I'm not sure. And then it says, okay, here is a recommendation. You should take a nap.” (55:37–59:04)
  • Collaborative, Non-patronizing Design
    • The app acts as a thinking partner, not an authority, which can counteract demand avoidance and empower autonomy.

Underlying Design Philosophy

• Specific-to-General Cognitive Processing:
  • Autistic and ADHD brains often process details bottom-up, optimizing for accuracy rather than efficiency, so standard tools miss the mark.
• Cognitive Load & Apraxia:
  • The app accounts for the gap between knowing and doing—addressing executive dysfunction and the phenomenon where knowing what to do doesn’t result in being able to do it (apraxia).
    • “I’m sitting on the couch...I want to water [my plants], and I have nothing else I’m doing right now. I could go water them right now. And I don’t know why I can’t move.” (55:37)

Memorable quotes

• “If you’re going to ask people to do something really hard, leverage their interest. That’s how you teach them to do that other thing, because you’re not having them also fight their attention to do that thing.” – Shannon Palma (33:18, 01:00)
• On decision fatigue: “Starbucks, man. Like, it's gonna kill me. But also what to have for breakfast and also what to wear and do I need to take a shower and should I go to bed?” – Shannon Palma (47:29)
• On validation: “There is something really curative in validation that is deeply lacking for neurodivergent, especially kids and teenagers...just saying, huh, interesting, that’s your experience; tell me more, is more curative than, but so many people love you.” – Katy Weber (73:55)

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• Shannon's pattern-seeking metaphor
  (22:04) – “Until you can see the whole elephant, if you’re just seeing part of a trunk, you don’t know what it is...and then there comes this perspective moment.”
• Tojisha Kenkyu discussion
  (36:16–40:27) – “This podcast is a process of gathering data and reflecting communally.”
• Exploration of Bayesian approaches and bottom-up thinking
  (40:27–46:36) – “Our brains don’t self-prune...our brains optimize for accuracy as opposed to efficiency.”
• AI & decision-making processes in the Decide app
  (52:58–59:10) – Randomization feature and statistical relevance in recommendations.

Resources & Further Reading

• ASR Nonprofit: autisticselfreliance.org
• ITI Assistive Technologies: itiassist.com
• Reference: Tojisha Kenkyu method (links mentioned in show notes)
• Noted influence: Annie Duke on decision making

Conclusion

Katy and Shannon’s conversation illuminates the invisible cognitive labor carried by neurodivergent adults—especially women diagnosed later in life—and how innovative, empathy-driven technology can lighten the mental load. With warmth, candor, and humor, they demonstrate the life-changing impact of validation, community, and personalized AI supports. The Decide app, informed by lived experience and rigorous peer-driven research, stands as a model for tools that truly meet neurodivergent needs.

How to Connect

• Dr. Shannon Palma: BlueSky (@shannonpalma), LinkedIn, autisticselfreliance.org, ITI Assist
• Podcast Host, Katy Weber: womenandadhd.com