← Women Designers You Should Know
Women Designers You Should Know
018. Lella Vignelli and Giorgia Lupi: Designing for Humanity
00:51:40
This dual feature episode highlights both Lella Vignelli and Giorgia Lupi and their focus on human connection through design. Lella Vignelli's multi-hyphenate modernist design, along with Giorgia Lupi’s innovative approach to data visualization.
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- [00:10]
Amber
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Women Designers. You should know the podcast that gives credit where credit is due. Today we're diving into the fascinating life and work of Lela Vignelli, a designer whose elegant and functional creations have often been overshadowed by her husband, Massimo. But today we're here to spotlight her story and explore the remarkable impact she's had on the world of design. I am joined by two incredible guests. First, Rachel Goggle, who you may remember from episode three, is back with us today. And we're also joined by Georgia Lupi, a trailblazer in information design and a partner at Pentagram. Georgia has had an exciting year this year. She's just been named one of Wallpaper's USA 400 list for 2024, recognizing her as one of the people shaping America's creative landscape. She's also recently won a Fast Company Innovation by Design award for her moving data visualization work. And perhaps most exciting of all, her new book for children and adults alike, called this Is Me and Only Me, is now available. In this beautifully illustrated picture book, Georgia collaborates with Madog Garner to show how the details we observe in the world today can teach us about who are inside. The book introduces the concept of data humanism in a way that's accessible and engaging for young readers, making it a perfect introduction to how paying attention to the world around us can lead to powerful insights. Now you may know the famous Massimo Vignelli. You've probably heard his name several times. He's the legendary designer behind so many timeless creations. But did you know that his equal counterpart, Lala Vignelli, was just as integral to their success? While Mossimo's name may be more familiar, Lala was not just his partner in life, but an equal collaborator whose work deserves just as much recognition. Lela Vignelli was a powerhouse in her own right, with a career spanning architecture, interior design, product design and more. From the minimalist elegance of the handkerchief chair to her masterful design of spaces like St. Peter's Church in New York, Lela brought a level of precision, rigor and timeless taste that was essential to the Vignelli legacy. Her contributions, while often overshadowed, were crucial to creating the cohesive design philosophy that both she and Massimo are known for. Today's episode is all about giving credit where credit's due. We'll be discussing Lela's lasting influence and how her timeless design approach still resonates today. Plus, we'll hear from Georgia and Rachel on what Lela's work has meant to them as designers. So get ready for an inspiring conversation about design, history, history, untold stories, and the quiet brilliance of Lala Vignelli.
- [03:08]
Rachel Goggle
Welcome, Georgia and Rachel to the podcast.
- [03:12]
Georgia Lupi
Hi, everyone. Thank you.
- [03:14]
Hello, everyone. Really exciting to be here.
- [03:17]
Rachel Goggle
Yeah. I'm so excited to have you here, Georgia, and to dive into all of your wisdom and experience and of course, diving into Lela's story, too. So first off, I definitely want to go through questions about you and especially.
- [03:34]
Help our listeners become even more familiar with you, too. You've often talked about your early interest.
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In combining art and data.
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Can you take us back to your upbringing in Italy?
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What role did your early environment and.
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Education play in shaping your fascination with data visual?
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Georgia Lupi
Sure, yeah, I'm Italian, but I've been living in New York for the past 12 years. But definitely I was born and raised in Italy. And when I was a little kid, probably 5, 6, 7 years old, one of my favorite way of spending my time was on my grandmother's tailor shop. She was a sinister. And I like this anecdote that my mom also keeps reminding me that really every day or every time that I was at her place, I used to take all of her belongings, like buttons, ribbon, threads, everything that she used and put them on a table and every day lay them out according to different rules, such as, you know, all by colors or all by size, like, kind of like unfolding and unrolling all the ribbons and policing them in a way that they could almost look like a chart or, you know, whether a button had four holes, two holes, one hole. And then, you know, as I was learning how to write in elementary school, school, I started to write little labels for my grandmother to understand. I mean, I really know that she wasn't very happy about my reorganization. And then at the end of the day she had to put stuff back. But in the end, if you think about it, it was a pretty innocuous pastime. And so that's why I think I've always been fascinated about, I would say, visual categorizations and some sort of visual order. And obviously, you know, then, you know, we can fast forward into what I've been doing in the past point, 17 years or so, which definitely has to do with visualizing information in this sort of like structured way. So, yeah, I think there's a parallel there.
- [05:31]
Rachel Goggle
Wow, that's so cool.
- [05:33]
Georgia Lupi
That's amazing.
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I didn't really know that that was data back then for sure.
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Rachel Goggle
Right.
- [05:39]
Georgia Lupi
That actually a good segue because before getting to maybe today and how you talk about your work now, it Seems like you studied architecture, which shares some principles with information design or this concept of visual order in this different way, like structure and space, obviously also a very different discipline. But what did inspire your shift from architecture to data and information design, if you don't mind speaking to that. And then how do you see your architectural training actually influencing this approach to visualizing information?
- [06:13]
Yeah, so, I mean, I think I have to take a step back, which is why I decided to study architecture in college. So when I was in high school, I would say it was pretty easy for me to be good in math and all of the disciplines that were sort of like scientific disciplines. But at the same time, I loved drawing. I mean, I also loved expressing myself creatively in various way. I was playing the piano and then ended up playing the keyboard in a heavy metal band, which, let's set aside the heavy metal part, but, you know, included on lot of composition, you know, in terms of composing songs and all of that. And also been trained as a dancer too, when there was a lot of performances there. So I think when I needed to decide what to do for college, I felt this tension between instructors and numbers and scientific disciplines and on the other side, completely. I mean, I don't love the word creativity, but something that could feel that was a creative expression for me. And so I didn't want to go the route of fine art. And at the time, you know, there wasn't really a program in data visualization. And in Italy at the time too, when you thought about studying design, it was very much, you will design objects and furniture. And so I think that architecture, in that moment in time for me was a way to merge those two souls in a way that I had, but also almost, to be completely honest, the way to push back my decision in time whether I wanted to do something completely scientific and close to engineering or. Or if I was inspired by something more creative. And as you said, Rachel, in architecture, there's a lot of general rules instructor, but also composition. If you think about how you. Especially when you study and you have all of these composition classes where you kind of pretend that you're designing a museum in the middle of nothing or within an environment and there's a lot of creativity in there, while at the same time you have to respect the fact that there's structural elements that needs to be built a certain way, otherwise the building will collapse. So I think that already it was a bit of a merging of all of the two. But then towards the end of my studies, I got really fascinated by urban mapping. That was one of the elective courses that I could take. And I think you can see the parallel already, really into information design, because all that we were studying was how to analyze a city from a level that was not necessarily just like going out there and doing ethnographic observations, but was in an abstract way on a map, on a piece of information that was already digested. There was already a translation of something that happens in real life into an artifact that we can look at to understand information. And that fascinated me a whole lot. And we went into planning some speculative neighborhoods and thinking about how people will circulate and how to place landmarks for people to orient themselves to the point that then we start to plan the services and fatigue facilities. And I think that I've always been very fascinated in how two things, how we can read reality through observations that are abstract in terms of really understanding, in that case, a city through a layer, layers of data, in a way, whether those data are digital, like nowadays, or more analogly, observing things that you go out there and register. And at the same time, how do we represent those things for whether they're urban planners or political stakeholders or even MTA people, people in a way to plan for what they need to do. And I think that then, you know, after graduating, I was just fascinated to try and find a way to work with information from a design perspective. And I found my way into a couple of different studios. One was my architecture professor studio, when in the end, I was really working a lot on graphic design and communicating his projects and so working more on the representation side. But then I moved to Milan as I studied in another little smaller town in Italy, and I started a PhD in design there while starting my own company that was clearly focused on information design. And my whole PhD was truly data visualization already. So it's a transition. But I think, again, in retrospect, it feels very clear. If I have to go back to when I was 22, 25, I felt that I had this intuition that I wanted to do and combine those two things. But to be honest, I really didn't know what it was going to end up being. I feel it's important. You know, sometimes when you look at somebody's path and you see, oh, that's clearly very defined. But, you know, the thing is, like, I really had no idea where it was going to go. And so it was a lot of learning by doing and understanding what was possible as I was moving along.
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Rachel Goggle
Yeah, I mean, I kind of see parallels already with the idea of maps and, like, you know, having that bird's eye view of a building too, or whatever. What is that called? The, like elevation or. No, that's.
- [11:12]
Georgia Lupi
Yeah, yeah, yeah, elevation. I also, you know, I know I know all of these terms in Italian then. I didn't practice architecture in English, but yeah, floor plans, elevation, you know, planimetries in general.
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Rachel Goggle
Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense. Where you're really visualizing the space and the environment from whether it's on a large scale, it's urban mapping, or smaller scale with building, depending on the building size, of course. But. But yeah, I mean, I definitely see a lot of those parallels. That's so interesting. I've never really thought about that before. But after completing your studies, you started.
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Working in the design industry.
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What were some defining moments early in your career?
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Georgia Lupi
So I was lucky enough to join a studio design studio called Interaction Design. There's this one principal, his name is Stefano Mirti, that then co founded what was called Interaction Design Lab. And I think that meeting him, I don't really exactly know if I would call him a mentor because, you know, we didn't work together for a long time. But it was a pivoting point for me to really think about, okay, interaction design and information design. And that was, I think, the first moment where I stepped out from the architecture background that I had and really moved into what does it mean to design experiences, to design information, to design systems. And I think that that was like a very important moment for me. Stefano involved me and my co worker at the time, Simone Quadri, who became one of the partners at my following up company Accurate into a really ambitious project for Milan, which was designing the plan for services for the whole city of Milan with a new mayor that came in. And so it was a way to use some of the knowledge that I had in urban mapping, but really start to think about how we design a flexible plan for decision makers to think about in the next 10 years, what to prioritize, prioritize. And I was responsible of the whole visual language for that. And I think that project, as much as it was terrifying because I, you know, I was a 25 years old, never did it before, was really like, you know, a big moment and then another one was done with Simone. At some point we decided that we were so fascinated by the whole thing that we wanted to do something ourselves and we started our own company. And what I really love about it is like we were doing data visualization. And one of our very seminal projects was a column for the standard cultural supplement of the Main Italian newspaper, Correira della Sera, where every week and for almost two years, we designed a very elaborate data visualization about a topic such as, I don't know, the Nobel Prize is a laureate and, or the brain drain like researchers and talents that go on another country to study. And all of the time we would go and find our own data, a lot of datasets with various level of context, so not only numbers, but actually stories that we embedded in those datasets. And every time we would design a visual language that was very customized for these datasets that we found because we couldn't really cram all of this information in a bar chart or a pie chart. And what I love about that collaboration is that it shaped the way that I think about data, because Simone comes from a sociology background. And so none of us were statisticians, computer scientist or expert in data, but we were both really passionate about finding stories and telling stories visually. For me and those two years and this collaboration with Simone in again figuring out something both of us never did before that we said yes to, because this is how I've been, I think, advancing in my work life just saying yes to things that obviously I had no idea how to do and then figure it out. But I think that really shaped my approach to data overall.
- [15:01]
So specifically to that time in informing your own company and whether that was at that time, but even at your time now at Pentagram, and you can speak to that transition a little bit. Amber and I wanted to know a little bit more about your thought process when tackling a new data project, maybe even how you balance creativity with the rigor of data accuracy. If you want to speak to some specific projects, whether they're recent or from your time, there's a few different categories.
- [15:30]
Of projects I've been working on in the past. And I would say that my approach changes depending on what I'm working on. So I've been lucky enough to have so many different opportunities from working with big corporations that had their own sort of like, kind of like data. For example, we worked for IBM. That's a very interesting project where at the time when they were defining their own design language, when Phil Gilbert, I believe it was in 20, 2016, he was the head of design at IBM, really decided to do a bold investment and we were called to design the initial bit of the data visualization design system for them. And what was fascinating about that process was that obviously we help them figure out, all right, what are the best practices, the do's and don'ts and also how to pick a particular chart. For example, if you want to show relationships in a data set, you should go for a chart that highlight that if you want to combine things over time. And so kind of like best practices. But the most fascinating part was that we needed to design a language that would look and feel like IBM. And so we went and look into the expression of IBM as we know them. These beautiful posters, for example, designed by Paul Rand or all the design legacy by Charles and Ray Eames and everybody that collaborated with IBM before. And we designed chart that actually literally could take this recognizable element and embed them into new forms of. Of data visualizations that were on the one hand, truly designed for the data that they had. And so again, not just a bar chart or pie chart, and at the same time that you glanced at it in a second and you understand that that's IBM. So this is some projects that we've been working on consistently. And I think that that as much as it's a more corporate side, and I would say the less artistic stuff that I've been working on, I think they still have a big component of, for lack of a better word, creative thinking and creative expressions. Because again, if you usually call us, you don't call us for building a very standard timeline or just to stylize a chart with the color palette of the brand. I mean, there's a little bit more to that. And then the other end of the spectrum are artistic commissions that I've been asked to do over time that I still like to do every now and again. I mean, it's not my primary focus, especially right now here at Pentagram, but in those cases, you know, one time I designed a fashion collection that showcases the discoveries of three incredible women, pioneers in their field for the brand and other stories where the patterns of what they've achieved are embroidered and sewed and applied on the textiles themselves. I designed a couple of murals, for example, one for the Museum of Modern Art after concluding an exhibition that highlighted the role of fashion in our culture and the way that we relate to each other. I've been working for other museums for different art installations. And so in that case, the freedom is really big, as in it's like carte blanche. And as long as it moves people to feel something and to get curious about a topic, you know, it's almost like you can do whatever you want. But in my work, because it's very data driven, there's always a legend, so there's always a way for people to understand exactly What I'm talking about. I don't think that I ever do projects that can be called data art per se. I think there's always an element of functionality. So that was a long winded way to say. I think that in every project for me there's a deep balance between functionality and a true understanding of the data and creative expression. And again, it's almost like going back, it's like what really moves me forward and what fascinates me as it feels like it's a big of a red threat throughout my work life.
- [19:17]
Rachel Goggle
Yeah, I think that's so fascinating. I never really think about all of the different facets of graphic design, but.
- [19:25]
This reminds me that you can really.
- [19:27]
Specialize in something very niche and, and be really good at it, like data visualization. And now, as you mentioned, you're a partner at Pentagram and you've brought a fresh perspective to the firm, particularly in data driven design.
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How has your experience been transitioning from.
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Co founding Accurate to leading at one.
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Of the most prestigious design firms in the world?
- [19:56]
Georgia Lupi
Yeah, well, I mean, I've been a Pentagon for five years and it's still every day, it's almost like a new adventure. I really love it. So, like, just to give a bit of a context, I co founded Accurate with two of my partners, like Simone and Gabriele. Gabriele was also my ex husband. We're still friends and collaborate, but it was a very like, you know, 247 kind of collaboration in a way. And that was wonderful for me as we started in three people and at the end when I left, they were 45 people and they're still up and running. So there was, I guess the reason why I wanted to bring it up is that as much as it was a design challenge, somehow it was an entrepreneurial challenge too. And so I witnessed how, what does it mean to change from being a company that is like three people doing everything, Then you start with an intern and then you expand and then you figure out, all right, now I have to figure out how to delegate and now I have to figure out how to build teams and now who talks to the client who does that? And so I think it was really interesting. And obviously we made a lot of mistakes and we learned from those mistakes. But I think after I would say probably 2011 to 2018, like, yeah, seven, eight years of accurate, the company was like so successful and almost, you know, I could almost not be there because the designers were incredible. And so I was sort of ready for a different challenge. I wasn't actively Looking, but I felt right, maybe it's a new passion project, maybe it's something else. But I was sort of ready to think about what is that I can still learn and experiment with. And then Michael B. Root, one of my partners here at Pentagram, incredibly famous, you know, amazing graphic designer, met me at a couple of times, different conferences. One in South Africa, design in Dhaba, when he was moderating and I was giving a talk. Then we gave our first TED talk together the same evening. And so we bonded in there. And then, you know, he started to invite me to speak in at his podcast and then having breakfast and I was like, no, that's pretty, pretty cool. But then one day learned that they were actually thinking internally, the 10 partners in New York, about offering me a partnership at Pentagon. And how a partnership at Pentagon works is a little peculiar. As in, you join and you are pretty much in charge of your own business profit and you have your own team. And I would summarize it as in, honestly, as long as you meet your target in numbers. And so again, it's a financial challenge. You need to go out and find your clients and, you know, build your own practice that is sustainable financially for a company that, you know, has a bigger overhead than a small company like it was before. So as long as you sort of like meet your target and, and produce quality work and hopefully advance the design conversation in your specific field, well, you can do it however you want. Like if you want to be a one man band pushing pixels until the last minute and doing everything yourself, or if you want to have a team of 25 people, that's fine. And I think what I really love is again, the freedom and the fact that I see Pentagram as an incredible platform. Now you also have the other partners who are an incredible inspiration and so you meet up with them, you're in the same office with them. You also do share some resources that are new business, communication, it, accounting, and generally. I think what I also love about Pentagram is that you are inspired every day. Just like passing through the open office and peeking at designers or partner screen and looking at what they're working, like branding Willy Wonka as a movie or you know, kind of like doing the signage for the new year botanical garden, like anything. I mean it's, it's amazing. And you know, now why me, a Pentagram? One would say, all right, Pentagram is a design company, you do data. What, what, what the hell, what do they do have to deal with it? And this is also a question that I had from Michael at the time. And he struck me to think about, right, thinking about what does it mean to build a brand identity? Two things. One, it means to build something recognizable that people can visually remember and relate to. And another way to think about it is to build a story for customers, visitors, users, whoever they are, readers that they need to belong to. And what Michael said is, well, you've been doing those things successfully for the majority of your career. It's just that here at Pentagon, we've always been using words and images to build brands. And I think that you can bring something else. You can use data. Data can really be an element that in different brand expressions can be very powerful. Obviously, it can feel like a bit of a stretch, but what I've loved about being here for the past five years is that I feel that I'm really extending and broadening my practice. And I think with pure data visualization and data storytelling, I've already done things that satisfies me in a way. And I am very fascinated into how we can embed this language of data into products and things that we see and use every day. And I'm experimenting more and more with that.
- [24:49]
Rachel Goggle
Yeah, that's so cool. You know, one thing that I've noticed about the partners at Pentagram too, is that there really is kind of this, this commonality of kind of unsettlement. Like there's always something more to do and something better to do and something to push your career or to push your creative life further. And so that's so admirable. And I love hearing that backstory of yours of what else is there?
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What else can I do to challenge myself?
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And that feel very Pentagram worthy, really.
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Georgia Lupi
Yeah, I think so. It can be a curse sometimes, as it feels like, especially for your partners in life, they might feel like, when is it going to be enough?
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Like what?
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Why do you need to keep doing more and different? But on the other end, I think it's really inspiring and if you find a healthy balance between just, you know, keep doing what you think is right to do and at the same time seeing if there is opportunity to broaden it, to do it in a different way. But again, not for the sake of, I know, need to do something different all the time, but to see if through practice and through understanding, you know, as time changes and the touch points with, again, client and customers change, how can we really evolve in a way that is maybe even anticipating some trends. So I think it's really fascinating. The other thing that is beautiful about the Pentagon Partnership is that again, you know, as a partner, you can decide to take in one high paying project a year and 10 completely pro bono projects. Like, you know, you can really decide that, that you again, as long as you're financially savvy, because you can't just work on your books and your things here. But there's quite a lot of freedom to actually truly experiment. Again. I've been working on some books, some artistic commission, and I feel that in a way they all then feed back in into my actual commercial and professional practice. So it's really beautiful.
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Rachel Goggle
That's great. Can I ask, how big is your team at Pentagram right now?
- [26:48]
Georgia Lupi
We're not really big. We're seven people full time. And then we do have a network of freelancers that, you know, we work with on a daily basis. And no partner at Pentagram has employees that are software developers. We really focus on the design practice here. And so every time that I, you know, work on an interactive project, whether it's a, you know, microsite or an interactive data visualization or an interactive installation, I most of the times collaborate with Acura at my previous company, as you know, I know and I've trained a lot of the people there. I deeply know the approach because I've, you know, held shape in it. And it feels like a really nice extension in terms of what I've done and a connection to what I'm doing right now. So, you know, as much as a lot of the teams here are relatively small, but we can very easily activate a rather large team if we need to.
- [27:40]
I love hearing the connection between your past life, your current life and how those work together. And I know we're here to talk about La Vignelli, but before we transition, I just wanted to say congratulations on all of your success and continued success. And I personally really loved your piece in the Times on Long Covid. And I know that you've been featured recently in Wallpaper magazine again as like one of the top 400 creative people in the US and I know you have books coming out. So, so much to celebrate. Just so glad that you're here, here spending time with us, but then also to talk about Leila. So what we've learned about her, or at least what I learned about her in school, and I'm sure Amber and I have talked about this too, is that she's really committed to timeless design principles, often focusing on functionality with elegance. And so as we highlight some aspects of her life, would love to hear just your perspective on her influence in Your work, even at a high level. Why you decided Excited to talk about Leila today and in what ways do you think, you know, women's contributions to design even still face challenges that may be similar to Leila's experience. But we could start there and then obviously talk more about her life.
- [28:53]
Definitely. And thank you, Rachel, for your really kind words. Really, they mean a lot. Thank you.
- [28:59]
Rachel Goggle
Starting my studio, Nice People was a thrilling yet challenging journey. But having a mentor by my side was transformative. I received invaluable advice on how to run my business. And now that I'm seven years into my successful, award winning studio, I'm excited to offer that same support to you. I've now hit 51 on one sessions and I'm here to help empower your creative journey. Join me for personalized mentor calls on intro co Amber, AC and now back to the show.
- [29:27]
Georgia Lupi
Growing up in Italy and not having studied traditional graphic design, Massimo and Lella Vignelli were one of my first exposure to what it even means to be a designer and what I really always liked about. And I'll be talking about the two of them for a second and then moving into Lella. What I've always really loved is the fact that, you know, they designed a lot of things. They designed furniture, graphic design. You know, she even ventured into clothing design and jewelry. And I really like what Massimo Vignelli said once or, you know, I read about, and once that is along the lines of if you can design one thing, you can design everything. That's a bit of a big statement. And obviously I think that works only if you surround yourself with people who are actually expert then in helping you build in the whole thing. But what I really love is that I think that both of them saw design almost as a mindset of something that, you know, then becomes so embedded in who you are and permeates all the aspects of your life. I've also just always been fascinated by the two of them as a creative couple because with my ex at Acura, you know, we were together for 10 years and we on a daily basis, we're a creative couple in a way. And I think there's something beautiful about that too, and how the personal conversations that you have then shape things about your company and the way you work. So in any case, I think I've always somehow felt related in a way to their stories. And obviously, again, they're Italian, I'm Italian. They moved to New York. I moved to New York too. And talking about Lela, obviously, then you asked me an inspiring woman that has influenced you. I could have said Paula share my partner, Europe Pentagram, but I know that she's been featured everywhere. She's, you know, probably the most famous woman graphic designer in the world. And I thought that for the little that I know about Lela, unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure to meet her in person again for all of these and for her role in my understanding in the creative couple. She's been incredibly fascinating to me now talking about her work. And again, it's a little hard sometimes. And this is one of the challenges that we can talk about to, to really understand what did Massimo do? What did Lela do? They were a creative duo and they were doing everything together. But I was reading this fascinating book that is called Designed by Lela when there's a lot of highlights of her particular work. And I love the simplicity of all of her design, but also at the same time, the pragmatism and functionality that all of that have, it's beautiful and elegant while being still very minimalist. And as much as my work is not probably minimalist, because I try to tell stories that have a lot of context with data. As I was talking about before, there's really a lot of functionality that goes into the choices that I make because they directly respond to a data set, so to a dimension, to a category and all of that. And I think that generally though, it's interesting to talk about Leila and her time in being a woman in the graphic design field. I think throughout their long and prestigious career, they both struggled, Massimo and Lela, to overcome the idea that Lela was merely a supporting role. And, you know, you read a bunch of times that, oh, Massimo was the creative and Lela was the pragmatist. And that might be true, but you know, then even talking to Michael Beirut, my partner that worked with them for 10 years, that is true and also not true. Lala was a catalyst. Layla, in any case, played such a role in the creative process by all the time highlighting what worked and what didn't work. And that's like super creative. And she really pushed the work forward. And what I really liked about that is that, I mean, obviously she faced a lot of challenges to being recognized. Challenges that I don't think we as women necessarily face the same way anymore, even though, you know, we can unpack and talk about that. But what I've always found, even though I've always been the creative director of my teams and even at accurate I was a creative director, but the people that worked with me, that had a more. I mean, let's. Let's talk about the figure of the project manager or the strategist or the person that, you know, kind of like, doesn't put their hands into the design, but actually has, like, a deep, rolling contribution. Like, I think that for me, those have always been collaborators that pushed my practice forward so much. From my ex, Gabriele, who was, you know, in charge of production at Accurate, to my first project manager here. His name is Philip Cox. He recently left to my current senior project manager and strategist is Rachel Crawford. So I think that those roles are still incredibly creative and it's very, very important to highlight that, I think.
- [34:08]
Rachel Goggle
Yeah, I love that.
- [34:11]
Amber
I just wanted to make a quick.
- [34:12]
Rachel Goggle
Note on one of the main sources, just for our listener to know. The. Designed by Lola Vignelli that you'd mentioned.
- [34:20]
Written by Massimo Vignelli.
- [34:22]
And that is going to be linked in the show notes too, so be sure to check that out because it's really insightful.
- [34:29]
Georgia Lupi
So Lella was born as lella Valle in 1934 in Udine, which is in the north of Italy. And we could say that Lella was destined to be a designer from the start. In fact, she grew up in a family that was steeped in architecture. She was surrounded by creativity and intellectual rigor. And I have to say that generally there are a lot of architects in Italy that studied architecture and then transitioned into photography or, you know, other forms of creative expression. So I think that generally, generally, I don't know, it's just not the first one that they followed that path. So. But her father, Provino Valle, and all of her siblings were architects, and so really starting to set a high standard for what it means to be a designer in her family. But obviously, Lala wasn't just following their path. She was a trailblazer herself in the way that she shaped her career. Lela, from very early on, showed a real talent for seeing the world with clarity and precision. And she showed it into how she translated it into her first designs. And so really, I think those are qualities that will define her approach to design for the decades to come.
- [35:37]
It was at the University of Venice where Blaela's story as a designer truly began, is what we've heard. And here she met Massimo Vignelli, and the two quickly became inseparable, both personally and professionally. They were married in the 1950s, 1957 or so, and moved to the US in 1965, where their careers started to really flourish. And while Massimo was often the more visible half, as Georgia alluded to in that partnership, it really was Lela's influence that quietly shaped everything that they did together. As Massimo later admitted in this book, Lela was the CEO. She had the final say on nearly every project. And without her, Vignelli Associates would not have had the consistency or success it achieved, which is quite powerful as a. As a statement.
- [36:30]
Rachel Goggle
Yeah, that's so beautiful. And I'm so glad that Massimo's really pulled out a lot of the credit that she's deserved over the years. And while Lela and Massimo co founded.
- [36:42]
Unimarc International, a company that brought modernist design principles to the corporate world, it.
- [36:48]
Was a game changer. There were several other co founders that.
- [36:52]
Started this with them. And UniMarc's influence is perhaps most famously seen in the design of the New.
- [36:59]
York City subway signage.
- [37:01]
But what's less known is how integral Lala was to this project. Her meticulous attention to detail ensured that the system was not just visually appealing.
- [37:12]
But also practical for everyday use. So Georgia, that's where your expertise comes into, of course, of making sure this is as functional of a map as possible. And despite her pivotal role, Lela's contributions were often overshadowed by Moss Mo's public Persona.
- [37:31]
As the couple reflected in later years.
- [37:34]
They fought hard for her to receive proper credit, often sending corrected press releases to magazine scenes that had erroneously attributed.
- [37:44]
Work solely to Mossimo.
- [37:46]
So that's so sad. And I, I like to see that Mossimo noticed that too, and was kind of trying to work in favor for her and noticing how the general public.
- [37:58]
Received her and viewed her and that that was equally frustrating to him to.
- [38:03]
Have to keep correcting people and saying.
- [38:06]
This is not just my work. Lela contributed to this too.
- [38:11]
Georgia Lupi
Yeah, I mean, it is really sad to think about, but also Lela was so determined to not let that, you know, influence negatively her path of work. And there's one story that actually really captures Lela's incredible determination that happened early in their careers. So they were working on a showroom project in Italy, and Lela was unfortunately regularly undermined by contractors who actually refused to take direction from a woman. Lela kept going in a quiet but firm way, and she established her authority not by raising her voice, but actually to let her incredible and impeccable design speak for themselves. And so in the end, she was able to make clear who was in charge. But I'm pretty sure that that was a kind of like a long and hard path. I like that she said once, good design is not about Showing off. It's about solving problems elegantly. If I done my job right, people won't see me. They will see a solution that just feels right. And I think that speaks to the fact that, you know, I didn't know her. I don't know her personally, I never met her. But it's interesting to think about. It's almost like her mission was good design versus, you know, being recognized for it. Though it's still pretty sad that she didn't in her lifetime. As much as I think she should. Should.
- [39:34]
Yeah. And I'm glad that that's the focus of today's conversation is continuing to tell that story. Another common thread that you may have with Leila is launching their firm, having partners in the work and kind of figuring out what kind of projects or responsibilities that you would take on. So they did launch their own firm in 1971, where Leda's role expanded even further. And while Massimo focused largely on graphic design, as I think we've mentioned before here, Leda took charge more of the product and interior design work. And one of her standout achievements was actually the design of the Saratoga line, Poltro Nova. I don't know if I said that correctly. You did, thank you. But the collection featured really a bold modular sofa with lacquered surfaces, a piece that was both sculptural and functional. And so her design for this line really became iconic, celebrated, and continues to be celebrated for its sharp lines and luxurious materials. But she didn't just design furniture. I feel like she created environments that made statements similar to how, you know, you talk about designing information, designing systems, and how much more meaning that can bring to different brands. And so really, her work wasn't limited to high end furniture. I mean, she did so much more. It led the design for interiors ranging from showrooms to corporate offices. And then one of her most celebrated designs was really the interior of St. Peter's Church in New York. And that's where her attention to how light interacts with space really resulted in an environment that was both sacred and inviting. Because that space was really designed for flexibility. It was able to shift from a worship service space to community events really seamlessly. So it was that meticulous planning, I feel like that really ensured that every detail, from the altar's placement to the way that the sun filtered through the windows, it really created harmonious atmosphere. And so she really paid attention to all of those details, which I feel like, again, went unnoticed in how she was given credit at the time.
- [41:52]
Rachel Goggle
Absolutely. And just to speak to some of her design philosophy, one of her most.
- [41:58]
Amber
Quoted philosophies is, if you do it.
- [42:00]
Rachel Goggle
Right, it will last forever. Which is so true for some of the work that she's created that is still in production today.
- [42:08]
And this belief in creating designs that withstands trends was the foundation of her work.
- [42:13]
Georgia Lupi
Work.
- [42:14]
Rachel Goggle
She also famously remarked, design is not a product of creativity alone. It's a result of rigor and discipline.
- [42:21]
And so that was really the balance between her and Mosso, is that she really was the pragmatic minded designer.
- [42:31]
She was the one who really finished.
- [42:33]
Projects to the end and saw them through production and all of that, While Massimo saw himself as the dreamer.
- [42:41]
Georgia Lupi
Yeah. And, you know, it's important to say that beyond furniture, Lela's work extended into different kind of product design, including glassware for Heller and silverware for different Italian hotels. And her design really combined beauty with practicality. Like the bakewares that she created, we actually featured grooves on the side to hide foot marks while enhancing the container's visual appeal. There was a beautiful elegance and simplicity, even thinking about products and their everyday uses, in a way. And even her jewelry design for Sal Lorenzo had a dual purpose, offering flexibility in how pieces could be worn, really reflecting her belief that design should adapt to the user. And one of the most enduring work is the handkerchief chair for Knoll, a piece that has remained in production for decades, which is quite something. And the chair was initially meant to be made of stamped metal, but then it ended up being proving too costly, too expensive. And Lela led the transition to all the fiberglass production, ensuring the chair's distinctive lightness and comfort. So she was quite the big deal.
- [43:48]
As we close. And this has just been such an amazing conversation. I see so many parallels between you, Georgia, and Leila's work. And just to talk about the legacy that she's Left, in a 2013 book dedicated to Leila's work. Now, we've referred to Massimo's book, but he poignantly reflects on their partnership. He really acknowledged this deep imbalance in how their contributions were credited. And he wrote about that frustration of really seeing only his name in print, knowing full well that Leila had been just as integral, if not more so, in the success of their project. So, as Massimo put it, a partnership is not about holding the pencil together, but about holding the same vision. And really, it's this legacy that Leila has is that of a designer who really consistently delivered work that was both functional and refined, whether it was a chair or a corporate office or a liturgical space. And so I feel like her story is not just about reclaiming credit, but about recognizing the nuanced contributions that often go unnoticed and creative collaborations. And so just again, also want to give Amber credit because so many of the women that she's featured on this podcast, I feel like that's what we're doing here, is making sure that we're highlighting all the amazing work that should be spread and talked about on an ongoing basis. So who influence really does continue to resonate. I've learned a lot about her today, not just in the objects that she designed, but in the principles of timeless, responsible design that she championed in Georgia. Thanks so much for sharing all those anecdotes as well.
- [45:20]
Rachel Goggle
Georgia. What's your biggest takeaway from her story?
- [45:23]
Georgia Lupi
I mean, to me, at least, that collaboration is so fundamental for the success of any design. And it might sound banal and obvious, but I've experimented every single day in my life. And I think one thing that, to me, has been very important in my career is to properly credit every designer, project manager, strategist, whoever worked on a project. And we're not in the age where Lela, unfortunately, was starting her career and had her career, but I think it's still so, so important to highlight the fact that a lot of the work that we see out there.
- [45:58]
Rachel Goggle
That's so beautifully said.
- [46:00]
Thank you so much for your wisdom and your thoughts and, of course, all of your inspiring stories, too. So thank you for joining us.
- [46:10]
Georgia Lupi
It was such a pleasure. That was a lovely conversation, and everybody was listening. Who doesn't know Lela Vignelli? Please go check her out.
- [46:19]
Rachel Goggle
Yes.
- [46:20]
Thank you.
- [46:21]
Georgia Lupi
Thanks.
- [46:24]
Rachel Goggle
Okay, maybe you and I can share a few thoughts.
- [46:27]
Georgia Lupi
Sounds good.
- [46:28]
Rachel Goggle
So one thing to point out, too, is Lela's work may have been quieter.
- [46:33]
Than that of her more famous contemporaries, but it is no less impactful. Her life is a testament to the.
- [46:39]
Power of dedication, rigor, and a belief.
- [46:42]
In doing things right, no matter who gets the credit.
- [46:46]
That's so admirable, and I feel like.
- [46:48]
That'S even better than what I can.
- [46:50]
Do, because I love to get credit.
- [46:51]
For, but for her, it was more about the integrity of the design and making sure that it was done right.
- [46:58]
And that it was going to be timeless and blast through trends and things like that, where it's just, like, so.
- [47:06]
Amazing that she really removed herself from these design initiatives and she removed the ego.
- [47:13]
She saw herself as a vessel for bringing this work to fruition. And. And that's so cool to really step.
- [47:20]
Back and think about design.
- [47:21]
That way.
- [47:22]
Georgia Lupi
I agree. I mean, I loved hearing George's takeaway. Also, just in terms of the power of partnership and collaboration again, now we could do the reverse. Is like so much of Vanera Associates success. Of course, Leila is part of it, but Massimo, too. And so, you know, in kind of just thinking about those dynamic duos, there are so many powerful ones out there. What. Whether it's two people or a partnership like Pentagram, you know, I'm an independent. I'm choosing to work alone on a lot of projects, but I find myself collaborating with so many different clients, and that partnership is so key, and so I can relate to so much of that. And the credit piece is interesting because, you know, I can't imagine what it was like just in terms of being a creative at that time as a woman also. Also in Europe and then in the U.S. i mean, it was the time where women had just a harder time being seen or more visible. Credit aside, I think they just. They had certain roles that were expected of them. And we now live in a time where, you know, it's celebrated to be an artist, to be creative. I know that the Vignelli Associates, you can go visit the archives if you travel to upstate New York. And I don't know if it's by appointment or they. But they've promoted things online or on social and where I'm like, oh, I wish I was on the east coast for this.
- [48:47]
Rachel Goggle
Yeah, that's so cool. And, yeah, I love what you pointed out, too. Is that, like, credit aside, she still had challenges with just her own daily interactions with men in her work environment, too. And. And clients not trusting her or I imagine she had to speak through her husband several times because he could get them to agree to things. I would love to hear from her words or if she'd ever written anything down about it, but I wonder if that ever bothered her or if she was okay with it. And maybe that was just her being okay with her own surroundings and just understanding how she was viewed as a woman, like, during her time.
- [49:32]
Georgia Lupi
Yeah, no, for sure. I guess just thinking about married creative partners, it's like a topic that we could spend hours talking on. But I. I guess I think a lot about other iconic creative couples like Frida and Diego or those are the two that are always top of mind. But I remember just reading about, again, like, her own. Like Frida's own struggle because she was always referred to as Diego's wife wife. And so I. I think about that a lot because, you know, was Leila Massimo's wife or was she a true, like, equal partner? And so having him acknowledge those things in the book is just nice to read because, you know, it seems as if it really was important for her to also be known as kind of an equal partner in that creative partnership and not just as Massimo's wife, but so much more than that.
- [50:24]
Rachel Goggle
Yeah.
- [50:25]
Georgia Lupi
So. But yeah, thanks so much for bringing me on again.
- [50:29]
Thank you.
- [50:40]
Amber
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed our deep dive.
- [50:44]
Rachel Goggle
Into Lella Vignelli's life and career.
- [50:46]
Amber
Her work serves as a timeless example of how discordant design can be both functional and beautiful while quietly standing the test of time. A huge thank you to Georgia Lupy for joining us, especially during such an exciting year for her. Don't forget to check the show notes for links to Georgia's book and also check out her work at georgialope.com and follow her on Instagram orjalupi. A big thank you also to Rachel for coming back and sharing her insights with us. It's always a pleasure to have you on the show. As always, we'd love to hear your thoughts on today's discussion. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with anyone who loves design. We'll be back soon with more inspiring stories and insights from the world of design. Until then, let's redesign history by celebrating women.