027. Marget Larsen: Revolutionizing Mid-Century Advertising (w/ Sean Adams)

Summary

Episode 027: Margot Larson - Revolutionizing Mid-Century Advertising

Host: Amber Asay
Guest: Sean Adams
Release Date: December 10, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 027 of Women Designers You Should Know, host Amber Asay delves into the remarkable career of Margot Larson, a pioneering woman who transformed mid-century advertising and packaging. Joining her is Sean Adams, a distinguished figure in the design world, to explore Larson's legacy and the broader challenges faced by women designers in gaining recognition.

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Guest Introduction: Sean Adams

Sean Adams brings a wealth of experience to the conversation. As the Dean of the Visual Art and Communication Design department at Art Center College of Design, the only two-term national president in AIGA's 100-year history, and an AIGA medalist, Adams is a prominent voice in design education and history.

Quote:
Sean Adams shares a pivotal insight from Saul Bass:
"If you can hang on past the yesterday's bread, you become a legend." ([03:07])

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The Legacy of Women Designers: Challenges and Recognition

Adams discusses the transient nature of design fame and the unfortunate tendency for women and designers of color to be overlooked. He emphasizes the importance of longevity and documentation in building a lasting legacy.

Key Points:

• Sustainability of Fame: Designers often enjoy peak popularity for about a decade before risk of fading into obscurity.
• Documentation Issues: Many women designers' works were not adequately documented or published, making their contributions hard to trace.
• Call to Action: Adams urges current designers to rigorously document their work to ensure their place in design history.

Quote:
Adams on the lack of documentation for women designers:
"Their work wasn't being documented. They weren't being published in books, they weren't being published in magazines... then it becomes an archeological dig." ([04:20])

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Spotlight on Margot Larson: Innovations in Advertising and Packaging

Margot Larson emerges as a central figure whose innovative approach reshaped mid-century advertising. Starting her career at Imagine, a prestigious San Francisco department store, Larson later made significant strides at Joseph Magnan, where her creative risks led to groundbreaking designs.

Key Points:

• Early Career: Larson's tenure at Imagine from the 1950s, contributing to newspaper and magazine advertisements.
• Joseph Magnan Influence: Creation of iconic Christmas boxes that doubled as functional items like clocks and musical instruments.

Quote:
Adams highlights Larson's boldness:
"She was able to pick up some of the language of the psychedelia of the 1960s and incorporate that into her work... that courage is so rare." ([18:27])

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The Importance of Documentation and Archives in Design History

Adams and Asay underscore the critical role of archiving in preserving the legacy of designers like Larson. Without proper documentation, the contributions of many talented women remain obscured.

Key Points:

• Historical Oversight: Many exceptional designers were overshadowed due to lack of exposure and archival preservation.
• Modern Solutions: Initiatives like the People's Graphic Design Archive are pivotal in democratizing access to diverse design histories.

Quote:
On the necessity of archiving work:
"Document your work, have it ready to go, because if you don't, you just disappear from history." ([04:20])

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The Evolution of Design Recognition: AIGA Medal and Beyond

Adams shares his experiences as AIGA president, focusing on diversifying the recipients of the AIGA Medal to include more women and designers of color. This effort aimed to rectify historical imbalances and recognize overlooked talents.

Key Points:

• Committee Challenges: Overcoming the bias of committees favoring well-known (often male) designers.
• Notable Recipients: Inclusion of trailblazers like Paula, Gail Anderson, and George Olden, an African American designer.

Quote:
Adams on committee biases:
"The committees were probably like, these are the names we know and that's it." ([13:12])

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Margot Larson's Iconic Designs: Christmas Boxes, Packaging, and Environmental Graphics

Larson's work at Joseph Magnan is highlighted as a paradigm of innovation. Her Christmas boxes, which served dual purposes, were not only functional but also environmentally conscious by reducing the need for separate wrapping paper.

Key Points:

• Christmas Boxes: Each year, Larson designed new, collectible boxes that became a staple for the store’s clientele.
• Packaging Innovations: Larson's use of vibrant colors, playful typography, and functional design elements broke the norms of her time.
• Environmental Graphics: Her ability to transform mundane spaces into visually captivating environments through bold typographic statements.

Quote:
Describing Larson's ecosystem of design:
"She was willing to go all the way and use up all the space... pure typographic." ([30:22])

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The Enduring Influence of Margot Larson in Modern Design

Larson's fearless creativity continues to inspire contemporary designers. Her approach to merging high-end aesthetics with everyday materials prefigures today's sustainable and eclectic design trends.

Key Points:

• Postmodern Elements: Larson’s work anticipated postmodern design by blending historical references with modern materials.
• Cultural Impact: Her designs resonate with the rebellious spirit of San Francisco in the 1960s, influencing genres from retail to fashion.

Quote:
Adams on Larson's forward-thinking designs:
"It's like taking All these old things and mashing them together and making something elaborate." ([36:52])

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Conclusion and Future Directions

Amber Asay wraps up the episode by emphasizing the importance of recognizing and celebrating women designers like Margot Larson. The ongoing efforts to document and celebrate these pioneers are crucial in enriching the design industry's history and inspiring future generations.

Quote:
Adams on the significance of documentation:
"If anyone takes anything away from this documentation is job one. Document your work, have it archived so that when it comes time for someone to do a historical survey. It exists." ([44:46])

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Final Thoughts

Episode 027 serves as a compelling exploration of Margot Larson's transformative role in mid-century advertising and packaging. Through the insightful dialogue between Amber Asay and Sean Adams, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for Larson's enduring legacy and the broader imperative to document and honor the contributions of women in design.

Discover More: For visual enthusiasts, the podcast encourages visiting Patreon to access video versions of episodes, offering a richer connection to the discussed designs.

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Let’s redesign history by celebrating women.

Transcript

[Amber A.C.]

Hello.

[Sean Adams]

Welcome to another episode of Women Designers. You should know. I'm your host, Amber A.C. and this is the podcast where even men gush about women's designs. Today we're diving into the story of a woman whose work you've likely never heard of, but whose influence you've undoubtedly seen.

[Amber A.C.]

Margit Larson.

[Sean Adams]

Margit Larson was a bold, visionary designer who revolutionized advertising and packaging in the mid 20th century. Her designs helped shape the visual language of the 60s, influencing everything from retail packaging to advertising trends and even pop culture. Yet despite her groundbreaking contributions, Margaret Larson's name has been largely forgotten in design history. Until now. We'll uncover her story from her start at Imagine to her game changing work at Joseph Magnan and beyond. Along the way, you'll hear how her creative risks and unconventional ideas inspire designs you know and love. And trust me, you'll never look at packaging or typography the same way again. But I'm not alone in this conversation. Joining me today is my guest, Sean Adams. Sean is the Dean of the Visual Art and Communication Design department at Art Center College of design, the only two term national president in AIGA's 100 year history, and an AIGA medalist as a designer educator and author of the Designer's Dictionary of Color. Sean is one of the most influential figures in the design world today. I am thrilled to have him here to share his insights on Margot and the challenges women designers have faced in earning the recognition they deserve. Before we dive into Margot's remarkable story, I want to share some exciting news. You can now get video versions of each episode on Patreon. These include visuals of the designs we're talking about giving you an even deeper connection to the story stories we share. I am slowly but surely uploading all.

[Amber A.C.]

Of those, so be sure to get.

[Sean Adams]

On Patreon and that is linked in the show notes for you or you can go to patreon.com womendesigners you should know. And with that said, let's dive into my conversation with Sean Adams.

[Amber A.C.]

Welcome Sean to the podcast.

[Sean Adams]

Thank you so much Amber. And thank you so much for doing this. It's such a great podcast. It's one of my favorites.

[Amber A.C.]

Thank you. I am excited to talk about you and your life and your career too. And so you have been a designer and you also owned your own studio, Adams Morioka, and you've had a huge influence on branding and visual communication over the years. How do you think a designer's legacy is built? And why do some like Margaret Larson, who we'll talk about today seem to fade while others remain household names.

[Sean Adams]

Okay, this is something that Saul Bass told me many years ago. In the course of your career, you're going to start off and you get out of school and then you're like the new hot thing. You're 30, all of a sudden, you're super uber cool. Everybody loves you. That lasts for about 10 years. Then you got to decide, am I going to go more mainstream or am I going to stay indie groovy? And then you're going to be like, so yesterday's bread, right? And he said, if you can hang on past the yesterday's bread, you become a legend. You just have to hang on through those years where you're totally out of flavor. And so I think in some instances, someone like Margot or Alvin Lustig, who died when he was 40, they didn't make it to the you're out of flavor period. So they never got to be legends. And then in addition with Margot and I find this with a lot of people of color and women designers, their work wasn't documented. They weren't being published in books, they weren't being published in magazines. So no high end photography was being done to record their work. And that's the most frustrating part because then it becomes an archeological dig. I tell my graduating students at art center, document your work, have it ready to go, because if you don't, you just disappear from history.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah, there's a lot of designers who are quietly designing and aren't publishing their work. And then there's even designers that I've talked about that have been around for a while. And I'm like, where's the rest of your archive? And it needs to live somewhere and take care of that now while you can. I love that you knew Saul Bass. Now I want to, like, dive into that. Did you know Elaine Bass at all?

[Sean Adams]

Oh, I loved Elaine. Oh, really? What a sweetheart.

[Amber A.C.]

She's on my list.

[Sean Adams]

Genius.

[Amber A.C.]

Oh, really?

[Sean Adams]

Even Saul said it was Elaine all the time. Elaine was the one that had the great ideas. Elaine was the one that was driving it behind the scenes, the film work. I mean, she was more on the film side of things rather than the corporate side. But I remember towards the end, and Saul was. He got sick and he wasn't doing that well, and you'd have dinner with him and Elaine would be so great and bring him in and take care of him and make sure he was okay. And what. This is a sort of a funny side story that I'm sure they'll be like, terrified. I haven't actually told, but Elaine would put a little bit of blush on him and he always looked great. But whenever Elaine wasn't around to do the blush, she would do it himself and be like Betty Boop. We're like, Saul, blend. Blend.

[Amber A.C.]

I wish there was even more information about her out there because she's on my list and I've been looking her up and casually and wanting to learn more about her because I literally did not know there was an Elaine Bass until I started this project. And it's just been eye opening to me to think about this duo that, yet again, Saul Bass was getting all the credit for. And everyone just kept pointing to Saul Bass because at that time, people still couldn't accept a woman behind a design project for whatever reason.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah, people just thought, oh, she's his assistant.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah, very like Ray Charles E. Right, Exactly.

[Sean Adams]

Ray's doing this amazing graphic work, amazing textile work, just churning out incredible stuff. And Charlie Eames, good guy, but he's going around doing his lectures. And Ray's just the workhorse, like getting the amazing stuff done.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Sean Adams]

And at the same time, to put it in context, there was an ad agency in LA that was totally like boys Club. I remember when I graduated from college and I met with one of them to show my portfolio and they were like, yeah, you gotta come work for us. And I was like, God, no. Like, this is so not the right place for me. But they were joking. Oh, we like to have our receptionist work topless on Fridays. We pay her an extra 100 bucks.

[Amber A.C.]

Like, are you kidding me? Oh, that. Yep. That sounds on par with that world.

[Sean Adams]

That world, yeah.

[Amber A.C.]

Well, you've collaborated on some of the most iconic brands and institutions, like the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah.

[Amber A.C.]

And you've also done so much work in women in design history and even just for the design industry as a whole. In fact, you were the only two term national president in AIGA's 100 year history. And you've had a front row seat to the evolution of the design industry. So I'd love to dive further into this idea of why women are often overlooked in design history. What are the things that in your work as an author and an educator that you do to reshape that narrative and include the contributions of women and even other underrepresented groups like you'd mentioned.

[Sean Adams]

Earlier, it is not easy. It would be a lot easier if I just focused on, you know, if I'm working on a book and I'm looking for historical examples or to Just pick up the white dudes from Europe. Right? That would be easy. But it takes some digging, it takes some work to dive in deeper. And unfortunately, women were often relegated to the women's arts, right? Like, oh, the textile designer, or maybe they did ceramics, hardcore graphic design, industrial design.

[Amber A.C.]

No.

[Sean Adams]

God, no. That could never happen. When, in fact, there were, of course, amazing women working in those fields doing amazing work. And I've always wanted to focus on the work. That's what I'm interested in, is this is a little woo. Okay? So just forgive me. Let's do it my little woo thing. So you, for example, your life is the only life experience that has ever happened in the history of the universe that creates a unique vision that only you can have in the entire history of the universe. Right. That's a remarkably rare and amazing diamond like thing that has to be shared. So every voice is just as irrelevant and just as important. And to set up distinctions between this voice is more important because of ethnicity or gender. It just never made any sense to me. I just like, why would you have those distinctions? I didn't see the line. And it wasn't until I really started digging in and realizing, how am I missing this critical information that I want to know? Because I found something super amazing. I want to know who made it and what their story was and why can I find one paragraph somewhere? And that's it. I think Margaret Larson, for example, we were going to talk about that was how Lou Danziger mentioned her once in a class and showed one slide. And I'm like, what is that? I got to find more of it. And then I was like, okay, who might know her? And calling around. That's why it's so critical. It's, you know, that range of voices, that range of experiences is part of our canon. It represents who we really are. It's not just the New York Art directors club of 1958. And that's all it is.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. And basically what you're saying then is in order to have a really rich design industry and the export and output of all of these diverse designs and all of that, it requires the perspective of all of these different, very unique individuals.

[Sean Adams]

The People's Graphic Design Archive, you know, is a great example of opening up those doors. There's so many great opportunities now for all kinds of work to be seen. Trying to explain the world. When I was in College in the 80s, and of course before that was, there might be one book on graphic design that was published a year, maybe, like, you go to the bookstore and maybe there's one book and there was like, two magazines. It was like Graphis and ca and maybe Print. Right. That's it. Those are the only channels. I remember talking to Paul Scher about this, that the road to being known was you start off, you get published in one of those magazines for one of the competitions, or you get those awards, then you're asked to speak at either Aspen or the AIJ conference, and then you're famous.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah.

[Sean Adams]

But that's all there is. It was like the studio system, where there was, like, one tiny channel that you got to get through. There was so much limited information. It was so small. Chip Kidd, Stefan Sagmeister, Bonnie Siegler and I are all the same age, and we say we were the last group to be part of that studio system before the Internet sort of exploded it. Where all of a sudden, now there's all these voices. In my time as AJ President, one of the issues I really wanted to focus on were the medalists, the AJ medalists. And looking at the history of the medalists, it was sort of like this giant block of white dudes. Right. So it was like, okay, we need to include more women. We need more people of color. And it was like, we're going to have to dig deeper, like it or not. And I would get pushback on the committees, would often say, but I've never heard of that person. Be like, it doesn't make them any less valid.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. So that's really interesting. Were you responsible for bringing AIGA medals to some of these women when you were president?

[Sean Adams]

I didn't personally choose them. It was part of the committee's charge. That was like the prime directive. Women and people of color. Women and people of color. Women and people of color. And it didn't mean, okay, if somebody's amazing and we've never recognized them, please ignore them.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. Remind me when you were the president.

[Sean Adams]

2007 to 2010 and then again 2013 to 2016, it was two separate terms. Like, I did one term, and then I was all done free. And then AIJ was going through some big changes, and there was sort of a lot of turmoil. And so they asked me, could you please step back in and bridge a generational gap that had occurred?

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. So do you remember some of the names that you brought up that ended up getting approved by the committee and getting an AIGA medal and all of that?

[Sean Adams]

I remember Paula was the very first medal I presented. Like, that was like, that was the first one. And then at. I mean, like, Gail Anderson, you know, like Jennifer Morla. I mean, there's so many people that had incredible careers or people that should have gotten it that hadn't. Like George Olden, who's an amazing African American designer. He had died a long time ago and everyone just forgot him. I'm like, yeah, he's like doing this stuff at CBS way back when. Wow. Elaine Lustig. It was just this amazing list of people that were like, how did they get bypassed? Yeah, like 10 years ago when it should have been their time. How did that happen? And you're like, the committees were probably like, these are the names we know and that's it. And you know, and it relies on nominations. And so people were really like, well, I'll just nominate the names. I know.

[Amber A.C.]

I'm curious to know, since you have so much insight, what does it take to get an AIG medal? What are the prerequisites? And like how long does it take? What is that process?

[Sean Adams]

Like, you just have to get old.

[Amber A.C.]

Be about 50 or 60.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah, I got, I got mine when I was 50 and.

[Amber A.C.]

Okay.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah. And I think it's something like, yeah, you put it in 25 years of service and. But it's about a body of work. It's a consistent body of work. It's a consistent commitment to excellence. And then there was also a consistent commitment to the community that you were willing to enrich the design community. And then the biggest thing I always said in the end was run that all through the filter. And the very last thing should be, are they a good human being? But a lot of it had to do with impact to the community, was the design profession moved forward in a good way by maybe some of your efforts. You just keep hammering and eventually you'll get there.

[Amber A.C.]

How many people get a medal a year?

[Sean Adams]

Typically it was always, since 1915, it was about two or three, but for a long time it was like two. Then I think it got to be three in the 90s because there were obviously more designers. There were like 12 on the earth in 1915 and all of a sudden there's 200,000 in the 90s. And so it had to broaden up. And then I instituted for every 10 year anniversary that we would induct a big group. But that would be sort of a catch up group. Right. Because there's so many designers. If you just stuck to two or three a year, you got a huge backlog.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah, that's really impressive. It's really interesting that there's work that's obviously being done when you look at that timeline. But there's still so much more work to do and. Yeah, and especially in making sure not only does the design industry knows these names, but even people beyond the design industry. And so it's good. Yeah, that's my goal.

[Sean Adams]

This podcast is critical. That's what gets the word out. And there's such a hunger for this information.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. So then today we're talking about Margot Larson, and I'm so excited to dive into her story. And a lot of her story is thanks to people like you who have dug through stuff that is not online and readily available in order to bring it to the forefront. And same with Louise Sandhouse and her book Earthquakes, Mudslides, Fires, and Riots. And you both collaborated on an essay or a chapter together in the Baseline Shift book that Briar Levitt was in charge of. And I actually just talked to her on the last episode. So that was a really fun, deep dive into Ellen Raskin and all the things that Briar's doing. So, yeah, she knows so much.

[Sean Adams]

She is a big hit. When we've had her come and speak and show or film, the students are like, oh, my God, that was the best thing of the whole year.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. Yeah. And then other sources to point out, too, you wrote an article on the Design observer that was really helpful in researching for today's episode. And also there's a communication arts feature on her, and so they were somewhat aware of her over the years, too. So what would you say is the one thing that makes her so distinct in the design world?

[Sean Adams]

You know, the thing about Margaret Larson that I always found so amazing was that she lived at that weird intersection of corporate retail design and psychedelia. Margaret was able to pick up some of the language of the psychedelia of the 1960s and incorporate that into her work. And I actually think her work informed some of that. There was kind of a porous effect with both of those, and that's brave. It would have been so easy just to have said, I'm just going to stay in my lane, and I'm going to use Helvetica, and it's all going to be nice and neat, and I'll have a lovely photograph and call it a day. And a designer like Margaret was able to say, no, I'm going to do a weird illustration and I'm going to draw it myself, and I'm going to hand draw the type. And it was that courage that is so rare. And, you know, we take for granted, like, well, yeah, that looks like the right Solution. But can you imagine at the time when the world is like Helvetica or die and you do that?

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah.

[Sean Adams]

I mean, that was remarkable. And then this integration of color that she brought to the work again, you know, bringing this sort of psychedelia approach into mainstream retail. There's so many things about her work that are just astounding.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah, I would definitely say that what makes her like a pioneer in what she was doing and like breaking the norm and paving like her own path too, is she didn't care what other people were doing or saying or asking of designers. She did her own thing and she was the visionary. And she wasn't just an executor of the, you know, what the CEO wants kind of a thing. She was telling them what they should do and they were following her lead, which I would say is like a woman in the 50s doing that is very.

[Sean Adams]

This is the same time when, you know that ad agency I was telling you about had the receptionist work topless, you know, and. And yeah, she's walking into like a CEO's office and saying, no, we're doing this crazy thing. Wow.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. And like demanding respect and got that respect and. Yeah. It's so impressive. I love her story.

[Sean Adams]

When Margaret started, she wasn't trained as a traditional graphic designer. She lived in sort of the advertising world and in a lot of ways I think was self taught. I imagine it was just at that time graphic design wasn't even graphic design. It was sort of like commercial art. Right. So you sort of like, you got to know the typesetters and how that works. And so it was this good education in as much that at that time, when everyone else was being sort of hammered with Swiss held Vatican typography, she wasn't getting that. And then starting out in the ad world, where I think in the 1960s in San Francisco, it also tended to be a little bit more freewheeling. I think it was. It was an age of change. Get on board with this new youth movement or you're stuck, you're lost. So in a lot of ways, I think she was able to express herself through those avenues in a really good way. And D'Quine, who was Pat Coyne's father at CA, said she had this amazing ability to always see what was right. That's that weird sixth sense that I think some amazing designers have where they see it and it clicks. It's like, that's the right approach, to be able to stick with that and maintain it.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. I'm curious, what do you think it takes to be that kind of a person to know what works and what doesn't.

[Sean Adams]

That's one of those things that in design education, I think we argue about a lot of. There's like skill and craft, right. And you can teach skill and craft. And then there's that nebulous kind of visual sense that some people think is evil. And in my experience, that comes from being true to yourself. That comes from trusting yourself and seeing something and saying, if I like it, it's right and not second guessing. We're all taught that there's these color rules, right? Like, you can't put this with this. These are analogous. These are the primaries. This works with this. That's all hogwash. And I think if you're someone like Margot, you let all those preconceptions go. I think it's that. It's that confidence and the willingness to accept. Yep, that's right.

[Amber A.C.]

It feels like we don't know that much about her background or where she came from except the fact that her mother was a flatware designer. We're talking about like utensils. Right. Like, and then her father was a builder building homes and.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah, I think just traditional working middle class people in San Francisco back at a time when San Francisco was just like a normal town that people could afford to live in.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. And in the 40s, she went to art school for reportedly only about six months at the Academy of Art, which is now the Academy of Art University. And that was a little bit of education before she started her career. She started at imagine in the 50s and somehow she must have established herself in some form because once she got to work then. Yeah, she just like picked it up and ran with it. And just to explain Imagine, for those of us that are too young to know, like me, it began in 1876 and ran for over 100 years. It's a high end department store based in San Francisco and became defunct and 94, but was comparable to Nordstrom or Saks Fifth Avenue. Today it's a luxurious store known for its curated fashion and elevated shopping experience. And so she was working in the creative department or art department or whatever that would be called at the time.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah. And I'm sure she was the person that. Yeah, you know, the department stores back then, a lot of the work was like newspaper ads. So it was a lot of like, okay, we need a little drawing and a little ad to go in that space. Now we need it to be bigger for this space. Like there's a mid level journeyman job that people could do, which was like, yeah, you're a commercial artist and yeah, you do the little fashion illustration and put the logo there and you're just churning them out every day because, you know, newspapers, they happen every day.

[Amber A.C.]

Do you think she was there for like about a decade or.

[Sean Adams]

I get the sense she was there like five or six years and then she went to work at the ad agency. They were working with Joseph Magnan and Joseph Magnan was a spin off from Imagine. So I Magnan was like where my grandmother would go shopping.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah, yeah. In fact, it was while she was with Joseph Magnan that she created some of her most groundbreaking designs and really got her footing in design. And it was while she was there that she created the most iconic Christmas boxes that we have to talk about. It was her first promotional device for Joseph Magnan. It was a series of Christmas boxes that doubled as clocks, building blocks, or even musical instruments. They were expensive to produce, but became an instant hit with the clientele because it basically replaced the need for wrapping paper. You could just have it. Instead of having it in a plain colored or white box, you can have it in this Christmas box that is essentially wrapping paper. And you wouldn't even need to wrap it at that point, which is very sustainable. If you think about it like that's, you know, putting two things together is one and, you know, something more people should be doing today or not enough people are doing. But these designs, along with her bold ads throughout the rulebook, instead of focusing on products, she was using illustrations and vibrant colors and typography to convey attitude and creativity. And even her ads at Joseph Magnan threw out the typical product based formulas of the time. It wouldn't just be this product front and center, the name of it, or whatever it might be. Instead, she was using playful typography, storytelling that captured the store's useful energy and that was very groundbreaking for the time. A lot of people weren't doing that because design was coming from a very practical place before and she was really bringing something new to the plate. But maybe you can tell us a little more about these Christmas boxes too.

[Sean Adams]

So she's working at Joseph Magnum and the clientele are young women that are skewing to the counterculture. Right. The Summer of Love thing was going on and like that whole happening. And so she's working with people that are part of that world, the ones that actually have money. I mean, granted there was a huge influx of young people in the 1960s in San Francisco. They were basically like unhoused, right? They were just maybe not all there. And they were like, I'm going to go to San Francisco and take drugs. But there was a lot of people that were like, yeah, they had the means and they like to shop. And so they could go to Joseph Magnan. But this environmental concept was really important. That was a really counterculture concept. And so she's just tapping into that zeitgeist of like, yeah, you don't produce a bunch of crap that you throw away, make it useful, repurpose, you know, like, unfortunately, we take that for granted now, so it doesn't seem revolutionary.

[Amber A.C.]

They became collectibles, didn't they? Like, from what I understand, she was designing a new set every year until she retired.

[Sean Adams]

I imagine in the background, people were like, how about this year you do a holiday theme? Right? And she just held to her guns and was like, no, now we're going to make these weird boxes, you know, that clowns on them. But they became collectible all the time. People waited for them. And I have a photograph of my mom and one of my. My aunts, and she's handing her one of the boxes. But it was obviously a present from Joseph Magnan that she'd gotten from her. And I know after my mom died, when we were cleaning things out, there was, of course, a full set of Louis Vuitton luggage, but there was also a full set of Margaret Larson Christmas boxes. So she saved them for all those girls.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. In fact, for the people that are listening, of course, I'll create a reel with all of her work, and you'll see the Christmas boxes in this reel. But to describe the boxes as best as I can, they're using the most, like, vibrational colors. Hot pink or magenta, with red. A very, like, orange red or warm red. She has different kinds of woodblock type all over it, too. And pops of green and these, like, metal stars.

[Sean Adams]

Maybe it's from wood.

[Amber A.C.]

Wood. That's what it is. I associate it with just, like, punk culture. But, yeah, it's like those stars. And then the only graphic on some of them is just, like, a bunch of exclamation points. Points. She's got, like, Christmas and 25 and Xmas and Xoxo and an ampersand on one side. And so there's, like, a lot happening here. And then one box says, do not open until Xmas. So it says that on the side, which is cute. They're just like, very loud, very bold, very colorful. Probably the most vibrant thing someone would have under their tree at that point. And then the other set that I'm looking at is all based on these games that the game boards are all pulled out to the exterior of the boxes. Like vintage games is what I'd call it today.

[Sean Adams]

So the Weiner and Gossage ads, the thing that I think is so remarkable about them is that they're using typography as image in the same way that Herb Leballen was using type as image in his work in New York. So on the box that has all the wood type. Right. Those are all wood type elements that are pieced together. The Weiner and Gossage ads, a lot of them are also picking up that typographic language of, like, oversized metal type forms that are sort of reassemblage. So it's again, it's almost that reappropriation concept that she was using with all of the other items, where it's like you're sort of repurposing design forms. Yeah, design elements to get this eclectic kind of an approach that takes so.

[Amber A.C.]

Much type awareness, too, like to be designing in the context of these things. And her ads, you know, using different forms and feeling very like newspaper and editorial and things like that. Like, she's obviously very aware of where all of these things are coming from and her type choices and all of that. It's pretty groundbreaking.

[Sean Adams]

She's working in a black and white palette because they're newspaper ads. Right. Or if they're magazine ads, they're cheaper because they're the black and white ads. They're bold. And then she gets around the issue of bad photography because a lot of times, you know, high end photography is not easy in a black and white setting by making these things purely typographic. Or the imagery is relegated to these little things.

[Amber A.C.]

Right.

[Sean Adams]

So it's such a great example of like. Yeah, I'm gonna go with it, man. Like, let's use these limitations.

[Amber A.C.]

She's even using like a little brandy glass as an emoji within the body copy.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah.

[Amber A.C.]

Was anyone really doing that back then?

[Sean Adams]

No. You gotta wait until, like the 90s with Charles Spencer Anderson picking up his language of all the sort of artifacts of clip art and things like that. And she's way ahead of the time, sort of.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah.

[Sean Adams]

This mix and match approach. I remember in school in the 80s, one of my instructors said, Herb Lou Ballad and Margaret Larson are burning in hell for what they did to typography. So even though religion.

[Amber A.C.]

I look up to both of them so much, too.

[Sean Adams]

I know. And then I think kak about like, wow. I mean, those Swiss Dudes, they were like my way or the highway. You're going to hell if you're not using Helvetica or universe the right way. It must have been like even more restrictive. And I think about people like Jennifer Morla, you know, who is one of the best designers on the planet. And she was working in San Francisco sort of at the tail end of Margot's life, but she was a woman in that atmosphere and her career is spectacular. I mean a stellar. But that mix and match sort of crazy thing, I think is what then led to when she and her husband started that Intrinsics company. One of my favorite objects in the entire world is, and I wish I owned one. It's a cardboard box, but she printed a thon chair onto it. So it's this appropriation of something that was art nouveau Victorian and then repurposed onto low end lo fi material. How far advanced is that? I mean, that's just like insane, you know.

[Amber A.C.]

What do you know about this box? Was it a shipping box? What was it used for?

[Sean Adams]

It was just a standard cardboard box that they had die cut so you could piece it back together again to make it into this chair.

[Amber A.C.]

So was it just like a one off thing she created for.

[Sean Adams]

No, you could buy them like Intrinsics. They were products that you could actually purchase. So there was the chair and then there was a trunk, like a box, like just looked like a normal box, but it's actually they printed a trunk, a Victorian trunk on it. And they also made these sweatshirts that had like Shakespeare or Mozart on them. So it's like taking this like low end apparel at a time when no one wore printed things on their shirts. Right. And she's putting like a Shakespeare thing, you know, so it was this sort of mashup, you know, it's like did.

[Amber A.C.]

Band shirts exist at the time? I think so, but I think the.

[Sean Adams]

Only people that wore them were like dopers. Right?

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. So now she's putting these like fancy men.

[Sean Adams]

I know.

[Amber A.C.]

Now you have a Mozart sweatshirt, you know, or Beethoven. Supposedly these were created to raise money for a classical music radio station. Yeah, at the time. So that must have been the client that this was for. And the design was so novel that it became a fad. There were knockoffs that were sold out on street corners nationwide. And if you Google it today, her version is being sold for like 500 on eBay. And then even some of the knockoffs, which are like very obviously knockoffs, but they're vintage knockoffs now. So they're in the like 2 to $300 range. So it's kind of funny to see this entire plethora of all of these sweatshirts that she started.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah. But I mean, but again, isn't that sort of her genius of taking two cultures and merging them together? You know, it's like, I'm going to take this high end, classical culture, low end sports apparel and slam them together. Or I'm going to take this high end, beautifully designed wooden chair and slam it onto a cardboard box.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. Another thing too is her packaging was so iconic and groundbreaking for its time. Like, maybe you can walk us through some of her iconic packaging.

[Sean Adams]

I mean, the most iconic thing that I can think of is the Parisian baguette bag.

[Amber A.C.]

Right.

[Sean Adams]

Like, and big type Parisian. Right. The idea that you're holding a bag with a. That's a big logo you're walking around with is such a cool idea. Right.

[Amber A.C.]

It's as if she knew going into it the ratio and size of this bag and got to work on the bag first. She didn't just like create the logo and then slap it on a bag or anything like that. It was very obvious that it lived within that world. And then everything within the brand came out of that bag.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah. Like, the trucks are just a big baguette bag. And working with those bad restrictions, like, you know, your client's like, okay, I need a logo and I have this super long bag. And you're like, oh, no, it's never gonna fit. Right. And she's like, I'm gonna use that and make a gigantic, big, long logo. Breaking rule number one. You never want a long logo. That's gonna fuck things up. Right. You know, I mean, she's just breaking those rules. And I think the Parisian bag is sort of a precursor then to her super graphics. Because if you think about it, it really is just a big, super graphic you're walking around with. Instead of delicate, polite little typography on there, she's willing to go all the way and use up all the space.

[Amber A.C.]

Absolutely.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah. I love the Dean Swift snuff boxes. Again, it's that mashup of high end, Victorian, eclectic, almost herb Lou Ballon sort of approach, mushing together with product design at a time when all other products are aiming for polite, minimal, tasteful. And she's like maximalist on the whole thing. And it's like, I don't know if you've ever seen like the Monty Python title sequence. Oh, yeah, it starts leading. That's the sort of the genesis of that language is I'm taking All these old things and mashing them together and making something elaborate.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. And modern.

[Sean Adams]

And modern out of something paper, like just, you know, it's that simulation and that's just postmodernism. I mean, she's taking cultural artifacts and cultural references and historical references and then merging them with low end materials and being irreverent in terms of the fact that it knows what it is. I mean, it's really advanced thinking. And yeah, I don't think she was in her mind like, well, I'm following some postmodern theory. I think she was just making stuff she loved.

[Amber A.C.]

I also love the David's Deli packaging that she did for bagel bags and boxes that all the food would go in. And it's this really large Futura black in white on blue bags basically wrapped around the bag, wrapped around the box. Like you don't see the whole word just on one face. And that's also very unusual for the time too, to wrap something around it, create the experience around it. And then she ended up applying that either before or at the same time to her environmental designs and her signage and all of that too.

[Sean Adams]

But then she does the same thing with environmental graphics that she was doing with packaging, which is like, here is a boring as hell building, like big, boring concrete box. I am going to take typography and turn it into something spectacular and just blow it up again. She and Barbara Stauffecker Solomon are the only ones that are like tackling this. Like, make it bigger.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah, we even talk about Barbara Stoffiker Solomon on episode three of the podcast too. And the fact that she was the one who came up with or started this super graphics trend. Hers were very geometric too. And Margot's moved into more of this typographic space. And I almost see her like this Shandy Geff restaurant in particular that has the stencil type basically from sidewalk to roof line. I almost see it as if she saw that from a bird's eye view. Seeing it as a box or a package.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah, exactly.

[Amber A.C.]

And designing it as if it was this small little thing. And then of course, when you walk up to it, it's just this larger than life type that's really exciting and really cool and groundbreaking for its time too.

[Sean Adams]

And Barbara's really following sort of Swiss design constructs, you know, with Helvatica and geometric purity and doing remarkable things with it. Right. But then Margaret is sort of doing something similar, but with a much more eclectic mix and match kind of a concept that you would use for packaging. I Mean, that's everywhere now, right? We just sort of expect it. It's like anthropology or Urban Outfitters or. That's their gist. Right. And that giant sort of like over scaled words and environmental graphics that, you know, obviously later, Paula does beautifully, you know, in so much of her work. And how revolutionary is it at that time? Like she's standing up to some architect who probably thought they were like God, and saying, no, we're doing this. Like, she must have been an amazing salesperson, like to be able to pull that out.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. The thing I love about Margaret Larson, after talking about her packaging, her ads, her signage and environmental design, she didn't limit herself to any one genre or field. And she really could take the basics of design and apply it to anything and everything and make it iconic. And if this wasn't said enough, she really was the spirit of San Francisco. She captured the rebellious energy of the 60s and she was a defining figure in all of that. Which, you know, obviously San Francisco was the epicenter of the radical movements of the 60s and her work basically paralleled the psychedelic posters of the Fillmore Music Hall. And she was a major influence for people like Deborah Sussex and Bonnie maclean and. Yeah, her amazing posters and all of that. And so she's such a pivotal role in this era. And I can't believe there isn't more of her work catalogs. Like I could look through a whole book of her work if it existed, because it is that amazing, that inspiring. And yeah, I've just like, I am in awe of everything that she creates.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah. I am so glad that you dedicated time for Margot's work. I mean, yeah, from. I think in 1983 or four when I first saw the A piece of hers and I was like, what the hell is that? You know, and desperately searching for years to try to find more and more examples of it because such an amazing thinker and influence. I mean, I'm going to give her credit for Gap for like their initial visual style or definitely their ethos, you know, and Deborah Sussman's work in the 1984 Olympics. I mean, there's so much that you can sort of say. Margaret's work was like the genesis of so much of that.

[Amber A.C.]

And as you'd mentioned before, she unfortunately died early at the age of 62 from cancer. So this was in 1984. But really her work continues to inspire. There's the Margaret Larson Award that's given out by the San Francisco Advertising Club and that honors her spirit and her legacy. And I feel like there's probably more to uncover about her. She also really cared about drawings and fine art paintings, and she did this throughout her career at home that nobody really ever saw until just even, like, a decade ago. And so she really was dedicated to a fully creative life and did so much in her life that was cut short kind of a thing.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah. Such an amazing person, and you're doing such great work.

[Amber A.C.]

Thank you.

[Sean Adams]

You're doing God's work here. This is like, you know, I mean, I know. I know when. When, you know, you first contacted me, and I was like, wait, I have a whole list. And then I'm sure you're like, what the hell, dude? Leave me alone. Like, you know, like, all these people I should be looking into, and, well.

[Amber A.C.]

Maybe I'll have to have you back.

[Sean Adams]

I would love it. I just, you know, I mean, there's so many I can't differentiate in terms of that's a woman designer, that's a male designer. And it's like, I'm just looking at work, and so there's so often I find, like, this in me, you know, this stuff. And then there people are like, do you realize you made that entire committee out of women designers? I'm like, I didn't notice that. Like, it's just, you know. And so I have this list of all these designers people should know. And often it's skews towards women that no one's heard about because no one's heard about them. And I'm like, yeah, there's enough about Saul out there. That's great. I want to know about Jacqueline Casey or Angela Decorah. It's amazing. Native American designer. And just, yeah, there's so many amazing stories to tell.

[Amber A.C.]

What you were saying, too, reminds me a lot about Stephen Heller, who I had on the podcast a few episodes ago, and he had that same perspective, too, about. I never really saw it as male or female. Was really looking at the work. And it just so happens that a lot of the work that inspires me were designed by women. And so it's one of those things where if only everyone had that ethos or that philosophy for, you know, the past 100 years, then we wouldn't be where we are today.

[Sean Adams]

So, like, digging out, like, all this stuff and thank God we live in a time when women are being celebrated and, yeah, for the work that they do. I mean, but the big lesson takeaway, you know, if anyone takes anything away from this documentation is job one. Document your work, have it archived so that when it comes time for someone to do a historical survey. It exists.

[Amber A.C.]

Yeah. Especially ephemeral stuff that's going to just be thrown away or is a limited time thing. At least an image of it can go a long way.

[Sean Adams]

Yeah. It drives me nuts when I'm trying to track down more information and all I can find is like a little grainy image and like print magazine, you know, I was like, I want, where are the slides? Come on.

[Amber A.C.]

Well, thank you so much for joining me today.

[Sean Adams]

What a pleasure.

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Women Designers. You should know Margaret Larson's fearless creativity and unique approach to design remind us of the power of asking, what if? Her story shows the incredible impact women have had and still have in shaping our visual world, often without the recognition they deserve. A huge thank you to my guest, Sean Adams, for joining us and sharing his expertise. If you enjoyed this episode and want to see the visuals we discussed, don't forget to Visit the Patreon. Patreon.com WomenDesigners. You should know where you can access video version of this episode and more. As always, let's redesign history by celebrating women.