037. Susan Kare and Amy & Jennifer Hood: Pixel Pushing and Powerful Branding

Summary

Podcast Summary: Women Designers You Should Know - Episode 037

Title: Susan Kare and Amy & Jennifer Hood: Pixel Pushing and Powerful Branding
Host: Amber Asay
Release Date: March 18, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 037 of Women Designers You Should Know, host Amber Asay delves into the influential world of Susan Kare, the pioneering graphic designer behind the original Macintosh icons and fonts, alongside a vibrant conversation with Amy and Jen Hood—the dynamic twin duo behind the renowned branding agency, Chutzpah. This episode intertwines Susan Kare's groundbreaking contributions to digital design with the Hood twins' journey in building a successful branding studio, offering listeners a rich tapestry of design history and contemporary branding insights.

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Guests Introduction: Amy and Jen Hood

Amber begins by warmly welcoming Amy and Jen Hood, highlighting their extensive experience in branding and their successful agency, Chutzpah, known for collaborating with giants like Nike, Disney, and 20th Century Fox. The twins also discuss their enduring friendship with Amber, tracing back over a decade, and reflect on their collaborative dynamic.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Hood (02:35): “Inspired by their legacy, these women are here to break boundaries and build a better world.”

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Building Chutzpah: The Hood Twins’ Journey

Amy and Jen recount their early days of founding Chutzpah amidst the 2008 economic downturn. They share the challenges of starting without formal degrees and how necessity drove them to create their own studio. Their entrepreneurial spirit and determination led to the establishment of a branding agency that thrives on passion and strategic, bold design.

Notable Quote:

• Amy Hood (07:37): “We were like, well, we'll start our own studio and see if we could make it work.”

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Philosophy of Great Brand Identity

The Hood twins emphasize the importance of working with clients who are passionate and have a clear vision. They believe that a compelling brand identity stems from a genuine story and that design should go beyond aesthetics to encompass the entire brand experience.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Hood (12:40): “We're highlighting the benefits that are already there as opposed to just slapping a coat of paint on something well known.”

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Challenges as Women in a Male-Dominated Industry

Navigating the male-dominated design industry, Amy and Jen discuss encounters with chauvinistic attitudes and the resilience required to overcome dismissive behavior. They highlight how their identity as women in design serves as a natural filter against chauvinistic clients, fostering a more respectful and collaborative work environment.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Hood (36:12): “We're two women owning a studio acts like a cheat code—male chauvinists aren’t going to hire us.”

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Susan Kare: The Iconic Macintosh Artist

Amber transitions to spotlighting Susan Kare, detailing her pivotal role in Apple's Macintosh project. Kare, a sculptor with a fine arts background, was brought on to humanize the computer interface through intuitive and playful pixel art. Her work on icons like the trash can, the happy Mac, and the command key revolutionized user interfaces, making technology accessible and engaging.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Asay (44:26): “Susan Kare is the pioneer of pixel art, the woman behind the original Macintosh icons and fonts.”
• Jen Hood (46:14): “Iconography is a huge part of UI UX design.”

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Legacy and Impact of Susan Kare

Kare’s contributions extend beyond iconic icons to the creation of the first digital fonts, including Chicago, Geneva, Monaco, and San Francisco, which remain foundational in digital typography today. Her designs for Solitaire and other early Mac applications showcased her ability to blend functionality with charm, influencing how users interact with technology.

Notable Quotes:

• Amber Asay (56:37): “Her original sketches are now in museums like MoMA and SF MoMA.”
• Jen Hood (66:00): “She is so good at borrowing and making it her own.”

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Collaborative Dynamics and Creativity

Amy and Jen discuss the unique advantages of being twins in the creative process. Their inherent collaboration fosters a seamless workflow, ensuring that both contribute equally and support each other’s strengths. This synergy is pivotal to Chutzpah’s success, allowing them to tackle complex projects with trust and mutual respect.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Hood (32:40): “Having a twin built in was like having a built-in collaborator who you can trust to get things done.”

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Future Aspirations and Ongoing Projects

Looking forward, Amy and Jen share their excitement about reworking their book, Freelance and Business and Stuff, which has been three years in the making. They plan to include new insights, stories, and interviews, aiming to help other creators navigate the complexities of running a studio. Their commitment to continuous learning and community building remains a cornerstone of their future endeavors.

Notable Quote:

• Jen Hood (40:54): “It's been one of the most rewarding things ever to write that book and help people skip ahead in their process.”

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Conclusion: Celebrating Susan Kare and Chutzpah

Amber wraps up the episode by summarizing Susan Kare’s monumental legacy in making computers feel human and accessible. She emphasizes the enduring influence of Kare’s designs on modern technology interfaces. Simultaneously, she celebrates Amy and Jen Hood’s innovative approach to branding, underscoring the importance of passion, collaboration, and strategic thinking in design.

Notable Quote:

• Amber Asay (75:04): “Susan Kare is such a badass. Her work made computers feel human and shaped the way we interact with technology to this day.”

Amber encourages listeners to support the podcast and explore Amy and Jen’s branding work, highlighting their upcoming book and other resources available through their website.

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Key Takeaways

• Susan Kare’s Pioneering Work: Kare transformed user interfaces with her pixel art and intuitive designs, making technology more approachable.
• Chutzpah’s Branding Philosophy: Amy and Jen Hood prioritize working with passionate clients to create meaningful brand identities that tell compelling stories.
• Overcoming Industry Challenges: As women in a predominantly male industry, the Hood twins leverage their identity to foster respectful and collaborative client relationships.
• Collaborative Creativity: Being twins provides Amy and Jen with a unique collaborative advantage, enhancing their creative process and agency success.
• Legacy Building: Susan Kare’s work continues to influence modern digital design, while Amy and Jen Hood contribute to the branding community through their agency and educational resources.

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Recommended Resources

• Chutzpah Branding Agency: hoodspadesign.com
• Book: Freelance and Business and Stuff by Amy and Jen Hood

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This episode not only honors the legacy of Susan Kare but also celebrates the ongoing contributions of women like Amy and Jen Hood in the design industry. Through their stories, listeners gain valuable insights into the intersection of creativity, collaboration, and resilience in shaping design history.

Transcript

[Jen Hood]

Foreign.

[Amber Asey]

Welcome to Women Designers yous Should Know, the podcast where we celebrate the women who are dominating in a male dominated field. I'm your host, Amber Asey, and today we're diving into the story of Susan Kerr, the woman who made computers approachable, intuitive, and even a little fun. When Apple set out to create the Macintosh, they needed someone to bring the interface to life. Someone who could turn a cold, technical machine into something that felt welcoming. Enter Susan Kerr, a sculptor with zero computer experience who in just a year created the visual language of personal computing. Her hand drawn pixel icons and digital fonts helped define the Macintosh. And decades later, her influence is still everywhere. Today I'm joined by Amy and Jen Hood, the powerhouse twin duo behind Chutzpah, a branding agency known for its bold, strategic and unapologetically fun design work. They've worked with Nike, Disney and 20th Century Fox, and they also wrote an amazing book for creatives called Freelance and Business and stuff. This is linked in the show notes, so definitely check it out. I admit this episode is kind of a long one. It was either going to be this long, thorough conversation in one or split into two parts. But you can always pause and come back to it, of course. So I opted out of making it a two part episode. So let's get into these two big stories of Amy and Jen Hood and their entire career and building up Chutzpah. And also the story and legacy of Susan Kerr, the woman who gave the Macintosh a smile.

[Jen Hood]

Inspired by their legacy, these women there wait for you and me and her and she. Breaking boundaries, building better world. Their design desires. You should know. Women designers. You should know. You should know. Women desire. You should know.

[Amber Asey]

Okay, welcome, Jen and Amy to the podcast.

[Jen Hood]

Thank you for having us. It's like so official. It's like almost feels weird because I'm so used to us being so casual.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. In fact. Okay, just to like give the listener a little backstory, we've known each other since I moved to. I moved back to California where I'm from in 2014. So we've known each other for more than 10 years. Can you believe that?

[Jen Hood]

It's crazy, I know. I. Weren't you at like 130 over 90 or something? Or 160 over 160.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, 160 over 90.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah. And then you move back. Right.

[Amber Asey]

You know what?

[Jen Hood]

It's all coming back to me.

[Amber Asey]

I hated that place, by the way. I don't think we've ever talked about this.

[Jen Hood]

There's some tea to start this off.

[Amber Asey]

There is so much Drama to, to talk about there. They fired me. It was like a whole thing. I was barely there for like six months or I can't even remember. It was such masculine energy there too. And it was also really boring work. We were only working on like university branding. It was very niche, very niche. And with university came a lot of sports too. And I was just like, this is not my place.

[Jen Hood]

Right. I mean you're, you're in like looking at your work now as a like elegant, gorgeous packaging and skin care. It's like. Yeah. Farther from where you're at.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. And like you guys took me under your wing. I felt like back then where it was just like, okay, who's here? Like, I want to get into the design community here in Orange County. And then not long after, after I was fired and had to find a new job, then I moved to la. So our like time living in the same place was short lived. But you guys have always, I mean it's kind of fun to just always know what each other's doing and catch up and things like that.

[Jen Hood]

I feel like always like cross paths all the time anyway. And we used to go to like the community meetups together, connecting things. We'd always hang out and.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

And I just feel like if there's a design conference like on this side of the coast, I feel like I'm likely to see you there, you know? Yeah, exactly.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, I know volunteering for you guys from the sidelines and just like everything you guys are doing and writing books and doing other conferences and working on Disney projects and I'm just like always cheering you guys on.

[Jen Hood]

Same. That's how I feel. I know, I remember it's, it's like when you first started doing Tick Tock and then like you totally blew up. I'm like, we know her. We know her. That's crazy.

[Amy Hood]

But I felt the same when you started Nice people.

[Jen Hood]

Because I'm like, it makes so much.

[Amy Hood]

Sense because you always had such a clear sense of your own personal style, which I always feel like is such a, like a coveted thing to have as a creative. Because I think a lot of creatives like really struggle with, I don't know, they don't really have any like distinct perspective of their own. But you always had a very clear vision of what you like. Then you had a curated sensibility. So it totally made sense to me when then you started your studio. And it's just always cool to see friends starting their own thing and become so successful because there's a lot of really Talented people who start studios. And despite being incredibly talented, it's a hard road and not all people are like, cut out for just like the, the rigor and the business side and booking people. So I was like, that's so cool. And now here it is. Like how your studio has been around for probably nine years or what?

[Amber Asey]

I think eight. It'll be eight this summer.

[Amy Hood]

That's incredible.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, we're gonna be 14 years next month, which is like, what? That's a teenager. That's wrong.

[Amy Hood]

Not that old.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, I honestly, I should have, like, I should have called you guys and been like, what? What the hell am I doing? How do I do this? Because you guys were doing it for years before me and then I never even thought to do that and just like kind of tried to figure it out on my own and struggled along the way and here I am.

[Amy Hood]

And yeah, those are all the skills that are exactly why you are a good studio runner and probably also why you're a great brand designer is because you're good at thinking and figuring things out on the fly. I think brand designers, studio runners, it's like we tend to just, we're just like, I don't want to bother anyone or I'm like, I don't want to. I just want to figure it out. Like, I can just figure it out if I just, you know, it's so.

[Jen Hood]

Like, I could probably do that mentality, you know, And I feel like that's definitely what we have. It's like, yeah, I can figure that out.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

Right.

[Amber Asey]

Okay, so we have to talk about your origin story. With all of this said, I imagine you've probably said so many variations of this and have probably exhausted this topic, but you, of course started hud Spa in 2011, and back then, of course, it wasn't this big sought after branding studio that it is today. It was really just the two of you figuring things out, saying yes to anything that came your way. I love how you guys talk about your early days too. And just like a random ad here or there, things like that. And fast forward to today and you're running a studio that's known for creating visual identities with confidence and attitude. And so take us back to those early days. Like, how did you, like, what were some of the lessons that you learned along the way? Or how did you, how do you begin that business of design?

[Amy Hood]

I think at first it was definitely sort of necessity. Like the magazine slash coupon clipper that we were at folded and then I got A part time gig doing other ads for another magazine. We were the ad queens.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

But I tell you what, we were like, everybody wanted me to do their ads.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, it's like. But yeah, anyways, so.

[Amy Hood]

And obviously when you have a bunch of ads in your portfolio, I don't know, it just doesn't. And we had gone to community college but didn't finish. So it just wasn't really a rounded out background. And you know, you're in your 20s. It's just we didn't look like a good hire.

[Jen Hood]

We didn't have any kind of degree, let alone a graphic design degree. So it was really hard to prove people when you're like only 24, that like, no, I swear I know what I'm doing. Even though, like, my work doesn't show it. I have no certification. It's like they really had no reason to trust us. So we really did have to kind of like start our own studio while we were just. It was, it was 2008, so it was like everything there was just an economic slowdown. So there was like a lot of people getting laid off. There just wasn't a lot of work to be had. So we kind of just were like, well, we'll start our own studio. And Jen was like, yeah, I'll keep looking for things. And you were working a part time job. And we were like, we always wanted to work for ourselves. We always kind of had that in us. So, you know, let's try it and if we get something else that's cool, we'll do that. But it's like 14 years later, you know, it worked out pretty good. Do you find that, like, as a.

[Amy Hood]

Kid you were someone who was always trying to start stuff, like, whether it's a scheme, you're kind of the ringleader, like.

[Jen Hood]

Cause I feel like a lot of studios are like, I know I tried.

[Amy Hood]

To make my own T shirts. Or you're the one who's always like getting a scheme together for your friends. Like, let's do this. What if we did that? So I think it kind of was in us naturally to be like, well, let me just try. Like, what could we lose at this point?

[Amber Asey]

Point. Wait, what were you guys like in high school? What were you doing?

[Jen Hood]

We were definitely. We were big into music. We. We both played multiple instruments and all of our friends were in bands. So it's like, you know, we were constantly going to shows. It was like we lived in Bowling Green, Kentucky during most of high school, and it's like an hour from Nashville, so It's like, what show are we going to this weekend? You know, who's playing? Night class at Western Kentucky University. Like, it was very much the music scene for us. And then, of course, it's Kentucky, so it's like, everybody loves sports. It's like, even if you're an alt kid, you love sports. Like, it's just baked in. So I think that was a lot of stuff, too. It was just like making T shirts for the. You know, for the. The teams that we made ourselves, and then, like, making tour or making band posters for our friends. Bands. That was kind of like the start. Yep.

[Amber Asey]

That's so fun. Were you guys listening to Dashboard? Of course.

[Jen Hood]

Yes. Who wasn't? No, actually, a lot of people weren't, but it was. It was huge.

[Amber Asey]

The next time. The next time I go karaoke, that's, like, top of my list is. Which song, though? Hands Down. Hands Down. Because, like, I still know that. It surprises me. It's like riding a bike when that song comes on. I know every word, and I'm like, whoa. The crazy thing is, I did not know that was still in there.

[Amy Hood]

He can't even sing it anymore because it's like.

[Jen Hood]

It's so bell. Yeah. So hard to. So melty. Yeah, I know. And I like the really sad, sappy ones. Like. Like, the whole, like, all the Best Deceptions, I think, was the first album. Right. And then places you have come to bear the most. But, like, Best Deceptions is so, so sad.

[Amber Asey]

It's so.

[Jen Hood]

Such a downer. Nothing you could sing at karaoke.

[Amber Asey]

And picture this. I'm. I'm driving in my 1972 VW Bug.

[Jen Hood]

What?

[Amber Asey]

Driving to high school, belting those songs at the top of my life.

[Jen Hood]

I love it. Yes.

[Amy Hood]

Oh, my gosh. You feel deeply, and that's just something to be said. Same, same.

[Amber Asey]

I think we're the same age, too. Are you 86?

[Jen Hood]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jen Hood]

86.

[Amy Hood]

I'm like, whoa.

[Amber Asey]

I don't know how I, like, remember that, but I think it came up once. And so we all turned 40 next year.

[Jen Hood]

I got it.

[Amber Asey]

How do you feel about that?

[Jen Hood]

I know. Really, we still had more time. To me, I'm just like, that's not. That's not right. You know? Like, I definitely don't feel it. Which I think is just a good place to be. It's just like. It's just a number that happens upon you. Yeah.

[Amber Asey]

I'm still 30. Like, totally.

[Jen Hood]

I'm like, can't be it, but yeah.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. It's weird.

[Jen Hood]

But it does come with. I do find that, like, things kind of roll off me better now, which is great. It's like water off the duck's back when things go wrong now. And that's like the benefit of the years. I feel like the passion still there, the excitement still there. But as far as like everything feeling like the end of the world, like that, that phase, I feel like is coming. Coming to an end, luckily.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, that's true. So, I mean, okay, we have to talk about branding too, because you guys are so good at branding. We all work on branding and all of that. And you've worked on some really amazing things from like, small mom paw shops to like major brands and corporate identities. And I want to know from you, in your opinion, what makes a truly great brand identity?

[Amy Hood]

I think for us, like, our sweet spot that we're always looking for, like, you know, you do that initial call with a client just to see if you're a good fit. Like, that's not what you call it.

[Jen Hood]

You call it. You're just like, yeah, let's get on.

[Amy Hood]

The call and talk more about this. But you're kind of like running down. It's the first date, right? And I think when we're talking to someone about branding, if they're really excited and passionate and they have like a product, it doesn't even have to be like an. A novel, groundbreaking product or service. But if they're just really excited about it and have a lot of like, passion and vision for where they want to take this, I'm always like, in, you know, every idea sounds like the.

[Jen Hood]

Best idea to us. If you are excited about it, we're like, this is going to be amazing. We're so easy to win over, but.

[Amy Hood]

And we'd much rather work on like a small project where the people are like, gonna take it far and like, put everything they can into it to carry the brand on beyond just the design.

[Amber Asey]

We do.

[Amy Hood]

But, and, but to actually like, make the brand holistically from an experience and a product and service standpoint good than us just slapping a coat of paint on something that's like really well known. But it's like, I don't know, the passion's not there or like, there's not a lot of creativity because it's like we have to stay within like these really specific. When we still love working on big brands. But I do find that we just like where there's opportunity for it to be more than just something that just looks nice, like there's a good story behind it. And so we tend to thrive when people are. They have like something that they just haven't like, uncovered the best way to show off their best angles. And we're just like highlighting the benefits that are already there as opposed to.

[Jen Hood]

We'Re not the person you go to.

[Amy Hood]

And it's like, we have a crisis of brand. Our product sucks. Like, can you just like, make it all look good?

[Jen Hood]

It's like that we're not going to.

[Amy Hood]

Be that person because that needs to be turned around. It's such a, like lower level to then when we. Comic level. Yeah, it's like, you gotta fix your lower level product, service and experience first, otherwise everything we do will be pointless.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, that's so interesting. Like, it really comes down to the story. And at the end of the day, the client. I'm curious to know, do bad clients fall through those cracks and those filters? Like, are you still getting clients that you're like, oh, this shouldn't have happened?

[Jen Hood]

I feel like that's so few and far between. Luckily, like, I can't think back very. If it's bad, it usually comes out really quickly. It's like after Discovery, everyone in Discovery talks a big talk. You know, they're like, yeah, we care about like, brand ethos and these are our brand pillars and we really, you know, we care about the product and the people and everyone says it. But when you get into like the actual creative and like trying to put that to the test and like filter that through into like, meaningful design, if they start to just like, if it starts to go off track every time you try to bring them back to like, the brand traits, the brand vision, the brand purpose that we're trying to achieve. And if they're just like, well, I saw this and I think this is cool and let's just try this. Like. Or they start to, you know, just kind of act on whim and can't really, can't really have a discussion. Strategically. And not even like, strategically sounds so like, bloated. Literally just like, is it the goal? Is it the vision? And can we all agree and like, get out of our own personal preference, like, for what is good for the brand? So it's like usually the first or second logo proof. That's when you really know if they're like going to walk the walk that they talked or if it was all just like, we know this is what we're supposed to say because we've all listened to enough podcasts, you know.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, yeah, like, is this going to work? Are they Going to. Are they going to, like, bite? Like, here's your. Here's the dinner, here's the dish. Like, take a bite. Let's see what they say.

[Jen Hood]

It's always kind of hard, especially when, like, you have someone who keeps pointing to, like, well, so and so did this, or, like, they keep trying to point to other brands and you're like, and we're trying to do that for us, but it's not going to be the same as what they did. Because the reason that worked so well was it was perfect for them and their brand traits and their personality and their vision. But if we're just trying to copy them, this is just a pastiche, like, you know, riding on the coattails of a trend instead of, like, creating something really unique and specific for us, which we haven't seen before yet, because obviously it's going to be unique and specific to us, you know? So I think it's like, having people who trust the process is, like, the best. Like, we've been blessed with some clients who just, like, they just know, like, it's not going to be perfect from day one. This is going to be something that builds. Each piece is important, but we really have to think about this as, like, the holistic picture that we're going to get to it, like, at the end of this, you know?

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, I love that idea of. It requires a lot of trust, and that's how successful brands are made, too. Like, when we think about top brands today and, like, amazing designs, there was so much trust coming from that client to that designer. And I feel like that's. That's probably an issue with all sorts of designers, like young designers really trying to get that trust. Like women designers. Like, that's a podcast, like, having to prove themselves and get that trust. Like all sorts of minority designers. There's so many layers to that process, too, and it requires a lot of, like, taking risks as well. And I'm curious to know, like, on that side of things, what's the riskiest or most unexpected project that you've taken on that was like, wow. Like, not only did it take a lot of risk on the client side, but that was, like, risky for us too, probably.

[Amy Hood]

I mean, from a branding standpoint, like, our biggest project we ever got, which unfortunately never saw the light of day.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

Because startups are volatile. It's like, it can be the hottest thing one year. And especially during the pandemic, everything, first of all was about how do we get things to people. Like, how do we just deliver everything Pretty Much. And so this was an app that was going to deliver a certain type of product for a certain type of industry that had not been like, logistically was not set up that way, but needed to be. And so it was for this app we're going to do the whole, like, it was the biggest scope we'd ever done for the biggest ticket price. And we were just like stoked that they trusted a small studio and it was in the construction world and we're two women, so we were like, this is just really cool that that kind of a team would trust us. And then it's just like it, it had so much investment interest because it was so needed. And then the whole supply chain thing, like literally broke it overnight because they were like, the whole industry was shuttered. And that was, this whole app was for that industry anyways. But I think it was the biggest risk because they were really trusting us to do. From strategy all the way through to execution. It was just the biggest scope we'd ever done. And we were doing of like, heavy strategy, like the kind where you're interviewing like, you know, 50 people and then you're like drawing conclusions from everybody. So it was just a lot of legwork and a lot more strategic than we'd ever done before. But even though it never saw the.

[Jen Hood]

Light of day, which was so tragic, very tragic, we still got paid for.

[Amy Hood]

A decent amount of it and we finished a decent amount of it. And I think we learned so much about the process and it really just helped us overcome our own kind of like, self imposed, like, can we do something large? And so then it was really handy because then ILM came around soon after Industrial Light Magic. Industrial Light Magic. And then we had already had the experience of doing a really large scale brand with a bigger company and we'd kind of already cut our teeth in this safe space that.

[Jen Hood]

And so we weren't doing it for.

[Amy Hood]

The first time with like, probably what's now one of our more well known, you know, brand projects.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. Like, it was basically a risk that turned into a stepping stone for the next project.

[Jen Hood]

Totally.

[Amy Hood]

But I have to think, like, I think it speaks to like their creative director, heard us on Christo's podcast, of all things, and then was like, I liked, I liked what you all were talking about. I saw you on Brand New and.

[Jen Hood]

Now I think you guys will be perfect for it.

[Amy Hood]

I think he had a lot of vision about what we could do more than we did.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

And so I have to say, shout.

[Jen Hood]

Out to Seb Sock in Canada, a.

[Amy Hood]

Nice Canadian guy who believed we could. And now I think it's like, you know, you only need a few of those big, big things under your belt. I think sometimes we like self limit ourselves because we're like, I don't know, we're a small studio. Could we really handle a big. And you think about the risk and the fallout, but it's like, yeah, you.

[Jen Hood]

Know, especially because, like everyone, I feel like strategy is the hot word nowadays, you know, and it's like I. We get a lot of questions from people where they're like, I don't think I can do like positioning and strategy. And it's like, well, can you do critical thinking? That's really what it is. And it's like, yeah, you know, I think sometimes we kind of like to make things seem more impossible maybe than they are or, you know, and it's not to say that everyone can do strategy. I think there are definitely a lot of people who like, it's just not their bag and that's okay. But it's like you may already be doing it and you're just a little bit afraid to call it that because you, you've not, like, you know, you don't have the degree to prove it or something. But. But it really is just critical thinking. And like, we're going to talk about Susan care today. But it's like, you know, sometimes being an outsider with a totally brand new perspective on an industry is such a superpower because you can tell like so quickly is like, does this make sense in layman's terms? I don't get it. And I am somebody you would need to convince, you know, So I found that like, being able to come in and just like from scratch, like, learn their industry and say like, this is unclear. And this is like the simplest synthesis of like, what you do and why it matters. And like where we're trying to go with this, like, that's the thing that makes our clients feel so stoked about each project is like that discovery part where we take everything that they've been kind of like pouring over for like years and make it really simple and easy to understand. And they're like, oh my gosh, Inevitably, someone always says, oh my gosh, we have to put this in our investor deck. Or like, oh my gosh, like, this needs to go on the about page, you know, and it's like they just feel so, like, like, yeah, you get it. And that's like the best.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, I think that's really like a Good thing for client to hear, too, is what a lot of clients get wrong is they're trying to look for the person that specializes in that industry that has been like, regurgitating the same stuff in that industry. But honestly, it takes, like, just a really skillful, like, strategic thinking designer. Teach them that industry, and then they're going to transform what you're doing and make you stand out in that industry. And that's really what it's all about.

[Jen Hood]

Yes. Oh, I think that's so true because.

[Amy Hood]

We were, like, talking to this new client the other day, and they do this really exciting thing, but they're so bogged down in, like, the technology of how they do it. They're like, yeah, but it's aggregated. It's. It's important that you know that it's aggregated.

[Jen Hood]

They kept telling us all these features and we're like, we're like, your client doesn't care.

[Amy Hood]

Like, they honestly don't care. They just want to know, do you do this for me?

[Jen Hood]

And is it easy and is it.

[Amy Hood]

Fast and will I enjoy it? You know, so. And they were like, oh, yeah, you're right. Like, as long as it gets done, like, they don't really care how. But to them, because it was so much time and money to get that feature to work and no one else can figure it out, they're like, we should tout this. It's like, well, internally, yes, great job. Externally, it's like, that is not the thing that the client cares about.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, an rip to all the designs that we create that never see the light of day.

[Jen Hood]

I know everyone has them.

[Amber Asey]

I made a reel of that one once, and it shocked some people. They were like, really? Like, this never got made. The client just, like, walked away. And it's like, yeah, like, that happens. There's so many. There are so many logistics that go into finishing it and, like, paying all the way to the end and seeing it through. And a lot of clients just, like, can't even get through that process.

[Jen Hood]

It's crazy.

[Amy Hood]

And you work in kind of a lot of physical industries, like, with physical products. And so the lead times are so crazy. And the amount of things that can go wrong between prototyping, packaging, like, there's so many expenses. First of all, the rollout just takes a long time. Like, you might not see the project launch for like one or two years, which is so frustrating.

[Amber Asey]

You know, like a building.

[Amy Hood]

Exactly.

[Amber Asey]

If you're like an architect, sometimes.

[Amy Hood]

Totally.

[Jen Hood]

By the time it launches too, you're like, oh, yeah, we did that. Like, you know, it's like so far away. It's like, yeah, but there are so.

[Amy Hood]

Many like expenses with people who have physical products that you're branding that you have to. It's like you just hope that they, they, they have like got their Runway.

[Jen Hood]

Figured out to where they can make.

[Amy Hood]

It to the end to where they can actually start getting cash flow in. Because it is such a thing when you're a startup that's product based. It's incredible.

[Amber Asey]

And I don't mean like, and some won't even last for like a year. Like, some just turn over or whatever. And there's just like very little that you can do about it. And so I think it's, there's so much to say about how like design isn't going to be everything for a business. And yet at the same time, like, how do you describe the success of a project based on design? Like, how do you say, oh, they like made this much in their first year or second year because of the design that we did for them. Like, there's so many layers and variables that go into like the impact that design has on a business.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

Do you all try and do that like through a specific number? I've always wanted to and have never been able to quantify our work. But with a pack you do a lot of packaging based identity work. Do you find it's easier to do it from like that perspective?

[Jen Hood]

It's like the old packaging like converted this much and like with the new packaging they've increased their sales by this much. It's like, obviously that's probably to do with, you know.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, I've tried and I've tried to talk to clients about it of like, what are your success numbers look like and things like that. And some will say, honestly, it was the industry, it kind of failed a little bit or slowed down and had nothing to do with the design that you guys did. And we're so happy with the design. And then on the flip side, we've had some clients say like, yeah, like we've made lots of progress. But like, I'm, I'm not really sure we could say that that was all because of the design. And so it's like a part game.

[Jen Hood]

Yes. There's so many pieces. I know it really is hard and it, that's why it really is like, you are the sum of the team. And I think that's why when we're doing calls with people, it's like, not only does it have to be an exciting project, but we also like, are like, we're also kind of looking at the team and saying, like, are we going to get it across the finish line kind of thing, you know, so it's.

[Amber Asey]

So I, I think to that point, then it can't really come to quantifying the metrics of it. It has to be all qualitative data. And you have to be able to say, these are what people said about it. These are what the. Like, this is the consumer perception of the rebrand or it's because of the design that some people picked it up or this is the press that it received or. And even press today. I mean it's so hard because a lot of people pay for that press. And so it's like some brands get more press than others and it's because they have a lot of dollars behind their pr and so. So, yeah, like, there's just so many different ways that you'd have to really just pull out more of the meaningful stuff and the client's happiness levels and things like that to prove the success of a project more than like it increased sales by 40%. And like, if we get clients that are asking for those numbers, those are usually the ones that are like, okay, you're not going to be a good client because you don't value the design.

[Amy Hood]

Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

And it's, it's so much like, like you said, qualitative versus quantitative. You know, it's like there is a lot that you can't measure. And I've been. Me and Jen are really obsessed with this newsletter by Paul Worthington called Off Kilter. I like all I. If all I do is get convert five listeners here to read that newsletter like this will be a worthy, you know, use of an hour of their time. But yeah, we'll put it in the show notes.

[Amy Hood]

But he's a Paul Worthington and his studio is called off kilter. But he's worked in all the big agencies or a few of them. And he's funny because he's from Scotland. He's very just direct. He will blatantly tell stories about his time name names and they're not all.

[Jen Hood]

Flattering does reviews of like things that are happening in the industry, you know, and like why he thinks things happen. So I find it so fascinating because you're learning from other people's mistakes that hopefully you can like, you know, make sure you avoid it. But he was talking about Big B brand and little B Brand and I found it really fascinating because it's like little B brand is like what we do, which is the design elements of, like, we're doing our best to have a distinctive color, maybe, you know, typography system, logo, things that are recognizable and distinctive and that work for that brand and their tone of voice and who they're trying to attract. But the big B brand is the stuff that we're not in control of that has to go right for our stuff to also thrive, which is, like, the overall perception and the overall customer experience, the overall vibes, you know, of, like, what happens when a customer goes into a store or when they order something online or when they see an ad? Like, what is the overall experience? And if you're not.

[Amber Asey]

Does the product work?

[Jen Hood]

Yeah. And it's like, even just stuff like, you know, the brands who have become iconic do so much investment in their industry. That is not. That is completely, like. You could consider it sinking money if you're thinking about it quantitatively, which is like, you know, whether it's like, Nike endorsing the Olympics or. And it's not even. Like, that's. That actually does come back in ad dollars, because people are gonna buy shoes and see it and stuff like that. But do you know what I mean? Like, Red Bull doing the soapbox derbies and, like, really silly stuff that is, like, fun.

[Amy Hood]

You can't track the ROI directly, but you're roi. You're investing in brand awareness. Right.

[Jen Hood]

And it's like. But that's the stuff that really matters. And it's like. So we get really excited when we talk with people that are excited about, like. Like, you know, getting the community involved and, you know, just things further than, like, ad assets and packaging and, like, that's just the first step. You know, it's like, we just. We get so excited when they're, like, excited to, like, take it and run with it.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. And it's like. It's kind of like, if you think about it, like, if you were designing for Theranos and, like, had no idea, like, what Elizabeth Holmes was doing behind the scenes, like. Yeah, that can't all be on you. Like, the designer of the brand.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, totally.

[Amy Hood]

It's so true. It's interesting, too.

[Jen Hood]

I was thinking about the other day.

[Amy Hood]

And you're talking about, like, personality fits and, like, how sometimes you can do an amazing brand that never sees the light of day or, like, you know, the people aren't. I don't know. To me, like, a lot of creative studios that do creative work, like visual identity and things like that, it feels more like a basketball team or, like.

[Jen Hood]

A sports Team where it's like you.

[Amy Hood]

Can have amazing play. Like Russell Westbrook came to LA and like just did not fit. Even though he's a great player and he's surrounded by other great players and then they can trade for someone else who doesn't like in his stats look as competitive. But then it like it's a better fit and then everyone, it rises the whole team. So people will always ask, like, how are you going to scale? How do you leave your legacy? Who takes over Huzbum? Like, I don't know if anyone does. Like to me it's like Huzpah might die with us. And that's fine because it's kind of built around like our personality and our style. And sometimes you see studios go to that next like generation and it's a.

[Jen Hood]

Different team, it's a different lineup and it doesn't feel as authentic anymore.

[Amy Hood]

You know, the work is.

[Jen Hood]

Something's changed here, you know?

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Hood]

The name is of the agency is the same, but the work something. There's something different.

[Amber Asey]

It is weird.

[Amy Hood]

I know. I don't know how that applies to anything.

[Amber Asey]

So interesting. Yeah, like, okay, here's a thought too is we see that happen. That formula happens all the time with these like mail run agencies like Pentagram or like all of these ones that are, that sound like law firms and has all of these men's names behind it. And then of course they've like handed it down to the younger generation or it's lived on beyond them and it's like a 40 year old agency or 50 year old agency. Like where are the agencies that are started by women that have been like handed down to someone else? Like there's something to that. Is it, is it because we are so infused into our agencies, our studios, or is it just because it's a matter of time and we'll eventually start seeing these like women started agencies that live beyond them.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, I know, that is really interesting.

[Amy Hood]

I feel like you can still leave a legacy even if your studio doesn't survive though. Like I always think back like push pin graphic. Like I was obsessed with that book.

[Jen Hood]

That they put out with all and.

[Amy Hood]

It was such a, like, I don't want to say a cult of personality, but in a way some studios are like a cult of personality where it's like you come to that studio like Smith Addiction or Nice People. It's like you're going to these studios specifically for a vibe that they've curated.

[Amber Asey]

Right.

[Amy Hood]

And once those People who lead that creative direction leave.

[Jen Hood]

It's.

[Amy Hood]

It's kind of hard to ensure that, that, you know, honestly, like, brand vision, brand voice stays the same.

[Jen Hood]

Right. It's like Mary Blair's time at Disney. It's like so many people know her name and so many people are fans of that specific Disney era and Disney time. And it's like, you know Mary Blair when you see it, but it's like, then there's just other. There's other, other iterations of Disney that are good. It's just not the same, you know?

[Amy Hood]

Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

But yeah, it's interesting. Yeah.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. And like, I bet you guys get asked this all the time. So you're twins, obviously. We have to, like, acknowledge that the.

[Jen Hood]

Elephant in the room.

[Amber Asey]

And it's so funny because I can't tell you how many times I wish I could duplicate myself and that they're could be like, two of me to accomplish nice people together. And even when I was like 12 and watching Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen and thinking, I wish I had a twin, oh, my God. And so, like, I want to know more about, like, your twin vibes. Like, how does it impact the way you work together? Do you guys have distinct, like, roles or things that you're better at or like, what is that shared process look like?

[Jen Hood]

I do think there's a benefit to us working together. It's like we're good at collaborating right out the gate, which it can be really hard as a creative to be collaborative because you, you're kind of greedy and you, like, want your hands on every piece of the part. You know, you're like, no, no, I'll do that. No, I'll do that. You're not doing it right. You know, it's like. So I think it does teach you collaboration a little bit, but yeah, it is. So it's so nice having someone on your team that, you know, takes it as seriously as you do and that you can trust will, like, help you get it done. And you don't have to worry about, like, are they actually going to come through. So it's like, yes, finding those friends, even if it's. I. You just have to have those people in your life. I'm sure you have it at your studio. Those people that are like your right hand, people that you just know and like, that is. It's really hard to be a lone creative. I think you always need some sort of sounding board. And like, Jen was reading Stephen King's novel on writing. He like, synthesized his whole process and wrote a book on writing. And, like, he didn't work alone either. His. His, like, main sounding board was his wife, and he, like, he trusted her advice over all others. So it's like, even, like, the greatest creatives that we think about as these, like, independent singularities, they're talking to somebody. They're talking to somebody, and they're sounding bored off somebody. Nobody's doing this alone. That's, like, such a myth, you know?

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

So I do think having a twin built in was. It's just like, you just have that built in instead of, like, trying to work alone and working under that myth. And then, like, later on in your career realizing, like, oh, wait, I really should, like, build a community that I can, like, you know, start to grow with.

[Amber Asey]

You know, it sounds like a marriage, like, you guys are married.

[Jen Hood]

So twisted. But it honestly is like, that. It's so twisted.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

I do love, too, that we can be, like, very honest with each other, which. It's like sometimes when you have a collaborator, which sounds awful, it's like if you respect them too much, you can't really talk honestly. Almost you feel bad, like.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

But it's like, you have to find someone that you can kind of be a little bit gritty with, because brand work, it takes so much, like, high level creativity. And then it's very. You also have to, like, work on a fast timeline, too, even though you're creating everything from scratch. So we're like, no, that's not right. We just, like. I don't know, we can get over, like, disagreements pretty quickly and then just get. Find a way through.

[Amber Asey]

I've noticed that with a lot of the women that we've talked about on this podcast that, like, have passed on and everything. But when, like, even men, when we think about some of these iconic men, and as I've, like, dove deeper into their stories, a lot of the times, there was a woman behind that man that you never really talk about or that we don't really address. And, like, I think about, well, Charles and Ray Eames, of course. And then, like, there's Saul Bass. Like, we always, like, admire and just, like, revere Saul Bass and everything that he's done. But, like, what about Elaine Bass? Like, he had her by his side throwing ideas and, like, you know, bouncing ideas off of each other. Same with Massimo Vignelli. He had his wife, Lela Vignelli, that, you know, was like. Like, she was the realist in their relationship. She was the one who could take that idea and, like, actually see it through to the end. Realistically and like just all of that. And so it's so true that there's there's a lot to having kind of this partner or significant other or twin to like really bounce ideas off of. Yeah. Yes. I'm curious to know too. Like, of course we live in this very much male dominated industry still, especially in the top and like agency owners and runners and brand owners and CEOs and all of that. Have you ever encountered challenges as women in design?

[Jen Hood]

I wonder if you find this too, but there's kind of this great like, cheat code for us. It's like we're two women owning a studio. If you're like a male chauvinist. Male chauvinist, you're not going to hire us. And that is like, like it's. Yeah, it's such a great little like filter out the gate. It's like, you know, it's like you're probably gonna go to our about page and say, it's not for me, so. But I mean, obviously true, you know.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

There is those instances though where you get hired by somebody who's great and they really trust you and then like, maybe you start working with subcontractors for, for elements like vendors to get a sign made or, you know, or like I remember I was working on a like this really amazing construction project where we were helping brand this like new center that had all these cool shops and it was like very much a community place and you know, like one of those cool places where like that are very popular now. Like the lab in, in Costa Mesa type thing.

[Amber Asey]

Oh, right.

[Jen Hood]

But it was like the, the people that I was working with were great. But then when it came to like talking to sign vendors and like getting them to like think outside the box and like try new things for like, we wanted it to be really cool and like nothing you've ever seen before. But they were just like so dismissive. I honestly thought it was more because of my age. I was like 25 or 26 at the time and I just felt like everything I brought to the table, they were like, well. And I'm like, I know you haven't done it before, but how about you riff on some ideas with me and we figure out a middle ground because we don't want to do the same old shit we've been doing. Like, this is supposed to be special and it's not special if we do the same old thing. You know, I'm always the kind of person where I'm really competitive and if someone, if I Start to read that someone doesn't think I'm capable or if someone's kind of treating me dismissively. My whole thing is like, now I'm going to prove to you that, like, I can do this and that we're going to do something great. Like, it's my goal now to win you over kind of thing. And. And so I just remember that process being really enlightening and like, sometimes you have to push back and you have to say, like, yeah, I know this isn't normal, but like, well, so let's ideate if that won't work. What's a different substrate that could work? Like, you know, like, we want it to look like this. And it's like, maybe my idea won't work because I don't know your industry, but you do.

[Amy Hood]

So what do you think, guy?

[Jen Hood]

Like, let's figure this out, you know?

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, yeah. You have to, like, push against the grain and like, try to, like, transform the way that they're thinking and especially how they, like, think of you. And yeah, there's just like, so much that. So much effort that goes into that. Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

And it ended up really great too. I think that's the funny thing is, like, if you do kind of like just push back a little and like, not in a rude way, like, it's obviously a professional setting, but it's just kind of like being like, no, you're right. Okay, so that won't work. So what will work? And like, just getting them to start thinking and start realizing, like, oh, yeah, well, yeah, maybe we can think about this.

[Amber Asey]

And.

[Jen Hood]

And I think a lot of people are just tired.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

And then on the other hand.

[Amber Asey]

Well, that and I. There's a lot of ego to cut through.

[Jen Hood]

Yes. That is such a good point. There is a lot of ego. Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

Regardless.

[Jen Hood]

And I mean, yeah.

[Amy Hood]

I find no matter what, the hardest people and projects to deal with. Like, right now we're working with another agency that subs us with some really big clients, but it's like we don't meet the client until. And they even have someone else do strategy, which I always find so hard.

[Amber Asey]

Right.

[Amy Hood]

We haven't built rapport from those initial calls. We haven't built rapport poor during strategy. And now we're just kind of like brought in as like these kind of like pinch hitters for brand. And we're like, hey, everybody. We're trying to get to know them, but they have already gotten to know the rest of the team. And it was probably one of the hardest projects we've Ever done, because there I almost felt like the dismissiveness was just because we hadn't built rapport, and it was just hard because they didn't trust us. They trusted the agency that hired us, and they hadn't met us from Adam. And I think it's always hard when you come in as an unknown and you haven't built those relationships, because then you can't. You can't just even talk, like, casually with people at the beginning of the call to, like, put people's, like, stress levels at ease, like, to just get everybody, like, calm. You can't speak to people's individual, like, oh, so. And so you remember when you mentioned that, like, that's why we thought this. It really took a while for us to get to know them without really getting to know them, because they had already gotten to know everybody else. So I told the agency that hired us. I'm like, if you want these things to go so much smoother, like, involve us at the beginning. Like, I'm telling you, like, it's weird, but this is a very personal process, and. And there takes so much trust that you just have to have relationships with people to really push these across the finish line.

[Jen Hood]

It's so true.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. Like, at the end of the day, it isn't just design. You have to, like, be up on, like, that book, how to make friends and influence people. Like, you have to. You have to know how to, like, work with people and how to, like, win them over, gain their trust, and, like, sell them on your idea. And, like, it suddenly gets so complex when you step back and think of all of that.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, so true.

[Amber Asey]

Looking ahead at the future of chutzpah, I mean, you guys have been doing so much amazing work, and you have all these side projects and making fonts and, you know, writing books and doing workshops and all of that. I'm curious to know what's next for you both. Are there any, like, dream projects or collaborations or things you want to explore in the future?

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, we've actually. It's funny that you bring that up, because we've. We've been reworking on our book, freelance and business. Business and stuff, for, like, three years, because we're like, we need to really release it. We have so much extra stuff we want to add in that we just haven't had the time, you know, and just, like, fun stories, anecdotes, like, little nuances that have made, like, really big differences in the last few years in our process of, like, getting to that next level, you know, and but it's been, like, three years in the making. But it's finally with the editor, and it's like, it's starting to really feel like it's almost here, but. But, yeah, so good. Probably launching that in, like, a couple months. Hopefully, like, it's almost fully designed. Yeah. And it's like, we're gathering a few extra. Like, we wanted to bring in a couple friends. Like, expect an email. I literally have a list of everybody that, like, I know owns a studio. And I'm like, it'll be so fun to, like, ask little. Just, like, fun questions and, like, get, like, fun anecdotes that are like, yeah, it's like, there's. There's theory and then there's just, like, funny stories. That's like, I never could have known this lesson until this happened to me. And, like, you know, here's like, a little piece of information, you know.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, that's so true. And, like, one lived experience is one. One thing, but then, like, 20 lived experiences, that's like, oh, okay.

[Jen Hood]

I know. And it's like, it's so cool because I feel like it's been one of the most rewarding things ever to write that book and, like, have people buy it and just be like, this helped me so much to just get off the ground running and not worry that I was missing something. Because I think it's like, a lot of times you're, like. You're pretty sure you're doing it right, but it's, like, not until five or six years. And do you feel confident that, like. Yeah, pretty much everyone I work with has the same process, and I wasn't missing out on any huge, like, gaping processes or anything. So it's like, helping people, like, skip. Skip ahead on some of that, like, easy. Just organization and process stuff is, like, so rewarding. But, yeah, like, what you were saying about, like, just, like, differences of perspective and, like, experience. Like, we're excited to kind of capture that in this second edition. So we've got, like, a lot of fun little, like, you know, graphs and interviews, and we're trying to gather it all and. But it's been so fun. It's been so fun. And it's like, yeah, we have, like, colleges using it in their professional practices courses, like, as curry.

[Amber Asey]

It's so cool.

[Jen Hood]

Like, it's just something.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

So much different.

[Amber Asey]

So easy to read, too. Like, you guys are such good writers that it's like, it's such a fun book to go through and doesn't feel dry and dull and boring. And do you guys have an audio version of it?

[Jen Hood]

I was just. I was like, last night, I'm like, I'm gonna do an audio recording, and I'll record it alone. If Jenna's all do it, I think it'll be so fun because I listen. I only listen to books now. I'm so lazy.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, same. And so it's like, I bet that that would reach. Reach even more people who are just, like, on the go, like, really trying to, like, get the wisdom they need to get their studios running and all of that.

[Jen Hood]

Especially if you have kids already. It's like, if it's not on audible, like.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

Who has. Who has, like, an hour to sit.

[Amber Asey]

Down and, like, read?

[Jen Hood]

You know, so.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jen Hood]

Okay.

[Amber Asey]

I'm listening to stuff when I'm doing chores and cleaning and laundry or whatever, so. Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

Yep.

[Jen Hood]

I know. Okay, now I'm really gonna. I'm gonna have to do that because. Yeah, that's exciting.

[Amber Asey]

You should do it. Just, like, sit and record by yourself. You probably don't even need a studio or anything.

[Jen Hood]

That's it.

[Amber Asey]

Okay. So we are talking about Susan Care today, and I am so excited to dive into her story. In fact, she's probably one of the most seen reels that I've created of these women. There's probably, like, I think, like, 50 or 60 reels so far. And so of those women, she's definitely the top and the one that, like, gets so many. So much respect from men and women and just, like, designers today. She's still alive today. I know her thing.

[Jen Hood]

We gotta reach out to her and get a comment for this.

[Amber Asey]

I know. I was like, I tried to get her on the podcast, and she's just too busy, and, like, just, like, have not been able to get her on here. And so I'm like, maybe someday, Susan, if you're listening, we want to know.

[Jen Hood]

We want to hear Susan.

[Amber Asey]

So just to, like, introduce her to the listener. If you do not know who Susan Care is, she's a really big person behind Apple and Macintosh and Pixels. And so if you've ever clicked on an icon or changed a font or interacted with a digital interface, you have Susan Care to thank for this, because she's the pioneer of pixel art, the woman behind the original Macintosh icons and fonts, and a key figure in shaping the look and feel of modern computing. Her work is intuitive, it's charming, and it still influences digital design today. And her story isn't just about pixels. It's about creativity, problem solving, and adapting art for Technology So like the beginning of UI UX and really understanding how to take an idea and simplify it as much as possible for user experience.

[Jen Hood]

I love that you're like, she wasn't a UI designer. Because she wasn't. I just listened to an interview with her when I was prepping for this. She's like, I wouldn't call myself a UI designer. I call myself a. Oh, what did she call it? A user interface Graphic designer or something really like nuanced. No, but I thought that was so funny because she literally was an original UI designer. Like, but she wouldn't call herself that. Like she's just. I love her kind of like, like she's got like such a humility and such like. I don't know, she's just so, she's so fascinating to me. Her whole like approach to everything.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, yeah. I would say iconography is a huge part of UI UX design. Like our like the command key and just like all of this stuff that we're look that we like know and can. It's like, it's like information down to a simple shape and can cross like different languages and cultures and like that's what's crazy about that.

[Jen Hood]

Oh, I know, totally. And I agree, I totally agree. It's. I think she means like I couldn't sit down and like design an app flow from like, you know, from like A to Z and like neither could I. But it's like I love, I just love that she was actually so much more like we were talking about earlier. It's like because she came in with this fine art and like different perspective. It's like she was the perfect person for them to say, hey, this really complex thing like we need something that says, you know, command. Like we need something that says like she was the one to take that and make it like a simple pictorial thing. Like you're saying. And it's like. And she was, was. She was not the obvious choice, but that's probably what made her like the best choice.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, yeah. So going way back to her early life and education, she was born in 1954 in New York, but raised in Pennsylvania. Her father was a university professor and her mother taught embroidery, which was a skill that would later shape her pixel based design approach. I. That part is so mind blowing to think about that. Like wow. You know, just like sitting and watching her mom probably do embroidery over and over and fill each square with something and figure out how to take something that needs to feel organic and put it into like little boxes is Like, a very unique skill. She went to Mount Hollyoak College, where she studied art, and she initially planned to be a fine artist or a teacher. I feel like that's a very common career path for women of this time, too. Especially, like in the 70s and earlier is I'm gonna go to school to be a teacher. And that was kind of expected or very familiar. And she ended up earning a PhD in fine arts. I'm like.

[Amy Hood]

Like, what I.

[Amber Asey]

Like, I can't even fathom. Like, that is so uncommon. Like, not very many people do it. She did it at NYU and graduated in 1978. And her dissertation focused on caricature in sculptures by. I think these are German sculptors, maybe Honor Dumier and Klaus Oldenburg. But, yeah, I can't even wrap my head around what that dissertation would be about. But that just feels so heavy. Fine arts.

[Jen Hood]

And I just love the thought of 70s Susan Care in New York City, like, NYU. I'm like, it's iconic.

[Amber Asey]

She's such a badass. Like, such a cool girl.

[Jen Hood]

She had her New York era just like every artist should.

[Amber Asey]

I just love that. Yes. And so then she moved to San Francisco to work at the Fine Arts Museum of San Francisco as a sculptor and curator. So I thought that was so interesting, too. That's what takes her to the Bay Area and, of course, changes the rest of her life.

[Jen Hood]

I know. And I read something where she was like, I kept going to talk to artists to, like, curate these exhibitions and kept wishing that I was making things instead of, like, you know, curating. Curating the thing. And she. So I. That's like. So I feel that so much. Like, I was studying fine art in community college, too. So it's like we all kind of start to think, like, what's the practical application for this? And we're like, gosh, I guess it's teacher. But it's like, that was not the path. She did what she was supposed to. And then she was like, but what I really want to do. And then I read an interview where she. I can't remember the animal, but it's like. So she quit that to start doing sculpture again, which, like, as you said, her dissertation was on sculpture. And when her friend Andy reaches out to her about apple, she was like, working on, like, I think this is the right animal, a metal warthog sculpture for somebody in, like, Palm Desert or, like, Mesa, Arizona. And I'm like, oh, that's so funny. Like, I don't know. She's just so well rounded. It's like, the woman can do everything.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. In fact, okay, so speaking of Andy Hertzfeld, he was a high school friend of hers, so I guess he came from Pennsylvania too. And he was working on the new Apple Macintosh. He was like part of the development team that like original Macintosh computer. And she came to mind maybe because like friendship or just knew how creative she was. But he needed a graphic designer for icons and fonts and just thought of Susan and just like called her on a whim. She'd never designed for a computer before. But I mean, she seems kind of like a sure, why not? Kind of a person. Because she just like checked out books on typography at that point and she brought them to her interview to show that she was serious and like, you know, ready to dive in. And then she basically said, I went into it totally green. But she was hired January 1983 and her official title was Macintosh Artist.

[Amy Hood]

I love that.

[Jen Hood]

Do you remember?

[Amy Hood]

I remember the like delineation when people stopped saying graphic artists and it started.

[Amber Asey]

To be graphic designers.

[Amy Hood]

Like, and I remember like you could tell the older gen would always say graphic artists. And now it's like it's graphic design.

[Amber Asey]

But it is funny.

[Amy Hood]

It's like it was deemed as a fine art for so long and now everyone's kind of more of the like strategic. It's just problem solving, you know, it's like kind of more of that designer mentality. But I think some of. Yeah, her artistry, I think so. I was reading this article the other day about the death of polymaths, which polymaths is just like an old school way of saying like a multi hyphenate people who are good at multiple things, things they enjoy.

[Amber Asey]

Oh yeah.

[Amy Hood]

So like Leonardo da Vinci was a polymath, like where he's like artistic, but he's also like scientifically very gifted.

[Jen Hood]

And he did like sculpture and painting and drawing.

[Amy Hood]

He discovered in his journals that he was just journaling like casually and had discovered like a key principle about gravity before it had been actually like published, which was that there's a rate of acceleration and like he had done all these grass. So it's like, I think she kind of speaks to this old school mentality of artistic minded people who are not afraid to try a lot of different things. They don't really feel restricted. Like I have to get a certain amount of knowledge before I can do this thing. Or like if I don't have certifications, like I can't. Like they only feel like comfortable and safe if they kind of have followed A path that's led them somewhere. Whereas I think people like her, it's like she craves the kind of like figuring things out part of things. So she's like interested in challenges that are outside of her wheelhouse and she can take her ability to research and, and learn on her own and apply it to a lot of different things.

[Jen Hood]

And that's why she kind of is.

[Amy Hood]

Ends up being successful, because she knows how to.

[Jen Hood]

She has that curiosity. Right. It's like. Yeah.

[Amy Hood]

And that problem solving kind of mind, which is not just solving things in the way that you've been taught to institutionally, but just by digging in. Like you were saying, like she just gets the books. She showed up day one at the job with like ready made sketches and ideas. Like she, she self prepares, she comes like ready. And I think that's like, like such a valuable skill that I really resonate with because we didn't take the traditional route either. It's like anyone can figure these things out. There's so much like educational material out there. You just have to like take the time to explore and try and things like that.

[Amber Asey]

You know, it's funny, I didn't know this about her story at all until researching it for this episode. That she started with such a fine arts, very detailed, very literal background and then just like completely transformed her career and transitioned into something that's still creative but so different because it's about problem solving and reducing things down and getting very reductive.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, I know. I, yeah, I love people who are just like, yeah, let me try that. You know, it's like that's where you get some of the most like original thinking is like, you know, people who are coming at it from a different angle. Like Jen's actually working on a script right now. And so I get, I get all these tiktoks about script writing because we, we're always talking about it and they're.

[Amy Hood]

Listening and TikTok is listening.

[Jen Hood]

Whatever they say, they are listening. So it's like all in my feed. But this guy was talking about like writing a script and he was like, it's like breaking out of jail. Like once someone does it one way, it's really hard to do it that exact same way again. And it's like so you know what I mean? It's like you're always thinking about like a new way to enter into these very competitive fields, you know, and obviously Susan Care didn't know that at the time, but it's like she was just bringing her know how, which like, served her well with that outside perspective of, like, taking that into computer science and programming and, you know, all this technical stuff.

[Amy Hood]

You know, I think too, what's refreshing about her, the way she talks about things and her process, it's always very, just, like, pragmatic and very just like, well, I just tried this and I thought about that. I love that about her.

[Jen Hood]

Her interviews are so funny. They're. She's so chill. She's so just like, I took a.

[Amy Hood]

Step and then I took the next lot. I. I think it's really like a burden is lifted when you're like, yeah, I can just approach a problem logically. Like, I don't have to know everything about it to just make logical next steps to figure out a little bit more and then uncover a little bit more. And I think once you learn that, and if you do have kind of that mind that enjoys puzzles and things like that, and finding this small bit of information that's important in a big swath of information, you realize, oh, I can do strategy. That's really all strategy is, is taking complex things and figuring them out step by step until it becomes something that's. You can understand the whole picture and point out what's important.

[Jen Hood]

And she made a great point in an interview where she was like, like. And I had really talented co workers. Like, she was like. I would often ask them, what was your first instinct of what this icon should be? Or, like, what have you done already? She was like. Because there was usually a really good concept there. So it's like, she also knew that, like, what she didn't know, like, she. She knew that there's, like, there are team members to help you fill in that gap. So it's like just understanding the importance of collaboration and leaning on other people for areas where you don't know what you're doing. That. That saves you from being the person who takes your hubris and your ego too far. Right. Because it's like, then you're in the Theranos territory. It's like a fine line of, like, you know, like, what do I know and what can I infer? And, like, how do I make this simple, but also what's possible and what makes sense on the other side. So I think that's, like, such a good balance so that you don't become, like, egotistical or maniacal, you know?

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. If you had to sum up her, I would probably say, like, she's this, like, intuitive genius with zero ego.

[Jen Hood]

I know. She's so chill. I did see, like, I looked up some stuff of her when she was younger, so I was like, what did she used to be like? Because we all go through, like, personality phases in life, you know, and she definitely had a lot more. Like, there's some early commercials of her, and I think maybe Andy, but they're, like, talking about the features, and she's talking about, like, the print feature and how great it is on a Mac or whatever. And she definitely is a little bit more, like, edgy and, like, this is great and, like, a little bit more puts herself forward. But it's. Isn't it so true that the. The older you get, the more you realize, like, it wasn't just me? Like, not even in the slightest. Like, it was so much of a group effort, and it was so much of, like, working on the shoulders of giants before, you know, whether it was like she. Her design hero was like, Paul Rand, and she always talks about reading his books a lot.

[Amber Asey]

Oh, yeah.

[Jen Hood]

You know, it's like. Or the people that she worked with that helped her understand, you know, like, the principles that helped her make the simplest iteration, you know, I don't know. It's just interesting.

[Amber Asey]

So let's talk about the birth of the first Mac icons. The Macintosh, of course, started with this bitmap display. There were no vectors. Each pixel was either on or off. And with that understanding. So Andy Hertzfeld told her, just go to the stationery store, buy the smallest graph paper, and color in squares to make images, because he's the developer, he's the one who understands what can be possible with this. And so, with those boundaries in mind, she got to work. And so the sketchbook with, like, 32 by 32 grids became her creative space. And I feel like living in those boundaries, it's really nice as a designer to have some sort of boundary to live within and then just to, like, get to work and iterate and iterate and go wild and get explorative and curious and all of that. But what's amazing is that these grid graph paper sketches were later acquired by MoMA as pieces of design history.

[Jen Hood]

It's amazing. It's the testament to never throw anything away. It's just like, yeah. And to that point, like, she was doing this interview with somebody and they were asking her, they were like, what was it like working at such a story company as Apple with Steve Jobs? And, you know, he's like, really kind of like, oh, the legend, the lore. And she's like, well, you know, it was a job, you know, like, she was like, you know, in retrospect, 20 years later, you can say, like, oh, wow, what we did was amazing. But at the time, you don't know what's going to be big and what's not going to be big. And I think that goes to show that she put, like, all of this, like, heart and soul into this thing that who knows if it was going to be huge or remembered, but she did her best. And it's like you have to kind of go into every project being like, maybe this will be remembered, maybe it won't, but let's bring, like, our best energy here. Let's imagine that these sketches could be in the mala.

[Amber Asey]

And like, she designed these icons entirely by hand. And if you think about it, I mean, when we're going from, like, you know, very analog era to digital era, that makes so much sense that there has to be some kind of a transition from hand to digital. And so she filled in these squares with pencils and pens before converting them into digital form. And her design inspiration, she says, comes from needlepoint and mosaics, translating patterns into pixels. Of course, art history played a huge part in this, creating intuitive and timeless symbols and even hieroglyphics and road signs, because they're just universal and a very clear form of communication. And so some of her early icons were the trash can, which was borrowed from Apple's earlier Lisa computer, and then the happy Mac, so smiling computer that greeted users upon startup. That one is so iconic. I hope she has a tattoo of that. The paintbrush inspired by real world tools, the lasso tool, which is an abstracted rope loop, and the command key symbol, which is on our Apple computers everywhere. And it's actually found in a Scandinavian road sign for cultural landmarks. So she, I mean, she really is pulling from all of these, like, historical contexts.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, she's so good at borrowing and, like, making it her own. And it's so funny. I was. She was talking about something and she was like, yeah, one time I went to Sweden and I was like, there's the command sign. There's the command sign. And she had kind of forgotten that. That's like, where she had initially found the information inspiration of like, oh, yeah, that's like, you know, because in Sweden, I guess they use it for like, this is an interesting landmark. Like, it's a sign for, like, here's an interesting landmark. And like, later on she realized that, like, it's actually a castle from above. It was like an old fort that is right in Sweden. And so it's like. But it's interesting when you borrow and you kind of make something your own. It's like, yeah, the lore becomes its own thing and you kind of forget the origins.

[Amber Asey]

You know, you could have a tattoo of that one too. Probably also a really good tattoo. But yeah, I mean, just a major takeaway is that she didn't just create icons. She was creating metaphors that made computers feel approachable. And ultimately she was humanizing computers, like humanizing the Macintosh, making it intuitive for non tech users. It was really very much about the average person being able to do these things.

[Jen Hood]

Totally. Yeah. And she did such a good, like, she, she brought so much, like, character and like fun into it, you know, it's like everything's so, like whimsical and like, enjoyable, you know, and it's like, that's the kind of work that we love to do. It's like, how do you make this fun that like, might otherwise not be so. And it's like, of course, like, they gave her that, that, you know, that task, but she definitely leaned into it. It's like I forgot what she was showing. She was showing like the bomb that she made for like a fail error state. And it's like a little bomb that's got like the little like, you know, typical. Yeah, like a, like a total Warner Brothers, like, you know, TNT bomb kind of thing. And you know, they were like, oh, this will never be used. And of course, like, we've all gotten the error state. It was like, it will be used. And, and it's like. And we, you know, it's like, you and I probably think about this in our brand exercises. It's like, but what are those little moments that like, nobody would expect for something fun, like a 404 page, making it exciting. It's just like bringing something fun into every aspect. It's like she totally did that.

[Amber Asey]

Yes, absolutely. In fact, she didn't just design icons. She also designed the first, first digital fonts, which is so cool. You guys know a thing about. Because you've created so many fonts over the years. So before Susan, most computer fonts were monospaced. Every letter took up the same space, essentially. And she pioneered proportional fonts, making text easier to read. So, like, the idea of kerning and all of that really started with her being able to do that in a digital setting. Taking something from metal type era, which of course there was kerning then, but having to be able to find a way to do that in a digital setting, which was a bit of a challenge too. So she created Chicago which became the system font for the Macintosh and early ipods and then other fonts that she did was Geneva, Monaco, New York and San Francisco. And kind of a fun fact is that the original Mac fonts were named after Philadelphia train stations, but Steve Jobs later renamed them after world class cities. So, yeah, I mean, kind of fun to think about, like her revolutionizing digital typography and creating fonts that are still recognizable today. And I hope that they don't. I'm like, we're talking about all these early Mac things and I feel like this might be lost on some listeners because if you were born in like 2000 or, you know, if you're in your 20s, you probably never interacted with a Mac computer.

[Jen Hood]

Like the old ones. Like the.

[Amber Asey]

Or, yeah, like the old Macintosh.

[Amy Hood]

Like the colored.

[Jen Hood]

Remember, like the colored handle shelf cover.

[Amber Asey]

Yes. The weekly blonde era.

[Jen Hood]

And the original ipod, which I still have.

[Amy Hood]

I have mine.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah. For some reason my Audi still has like a. Yeah. Like a ipod hookup. I love that you still have yours.

[Amber Asey]

I have it because there it is.

[Amy Hood]

I used it in my truck because I have an older discovery. I used to have like the right hookup, but then I. Yeah, I lost it or it broke or something. But I keep, I keep this here. So I remember to get a hookup, but. And I still haven't, so I need to get it. But yeah, it's got all my high school music on it. I know.

[Amber Asey]

You know, it's funny, I get. So we've gotten mad at my dad in the past because he got rid of his old Macintosh computer. And I was like, dad, do you regret getting rid of that? And he's like, yes. I think it was like the second generation or something. But still it was like we played on that all the time as kids and we were putting in the floppy disks and playing all sorts of games. Like, that was our iPad.

[Jen Hood]

And Amber, I was gonna say, like, not only is this woman done custom icons that we all like recognize today, like, you know, and custom typography. She also designed the solitaire deck.

[Amy Hood]

Yes.

[Jen Hood]

Isn't that incredible? Like, yes.

[Amber Asey]

She's so iconic. That is iconic. In fact, she designed the original cards and then the developer, it was actually an intern that programmed it. His name was Wes Cherry. And so I always think about what he did. I don't know. At the end when you win, Susan had any. Yeah, when you win. And they just like bounce and duplicate and just like you just like have to watch the whole thing.

[Jen Hood]

These are things that I think of.

[Amy Hood]

In my Mind where.

[Jen Hood]

Where it's like. I like to call it the Goodyear blimp of it all because it's like the completely unnecessary brand moment that is so delightful. And it's like the roadside attraction thing where it's like a little over the top, it's completely unnecessary and superfluous, but it's like, imagine life without it. Yeah.

[Amber Asey]

Like, I mean, the full circle moment. It is really about getting people to love computers and to, like, engage with them and like, find. Find joy in them and not just be like this boring robotic thing. And that's like, essentially what Solitaire did is like, it's like the early days of people just, like being glued to their computer screen and, like, not wanting to walk away.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And doesn't Isn't that just like the encouragement of, like, no one told him and at the end, we want you to do something fun. Flourish. Or maybe they did. Maybe it was in the art brief, but it does it always. Like, Jen's really good at, like, Like, I'm always like, it's not in a brief. And they didn't ask for this. I'm like, we have to stick to the parameters. And it's like, sometimes you have to say, like, wouldn't it be fun if. Yeah, wouldn't it be fun if. And they don't know what to ask for. The whole point is that we're supposed to be here creating good ideas, you know?

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. Well, here's the story. I just looked it up. Here's the story of Solitaire. So it sounds like it is Wes Cherry's idea. He's the intern and was creating Solitaire as a side project while working on Microsoft. And the game wasn't included.

[Jen Hood]

Okay.

[Amber Asey]

It was included in Windows 3.0 as a way to teach users how to use a mouse and click dragging and dropping technique. So maybe that's when the mouse came into play, I'm not really sure. But then they needed, of course, a digital set of playing cards. And that's where Susan Care came in. And so she was the one who made sure it was like, clear, recognizable, visually appealing, reducing it down to pixels again. And then the card backs and face designs were carefully crafted to be elegant, yet simple, and of course, low resolution pixel constraints. But her designs remained in use for years because it became one of the most iconic digital decks ever made. So we can't not talk about Susan Care without talking about Steve Jobs, of course. So he personally approved all of Susan's icons and he respected her work and gave her creative freedom. But of course he was also demanding and often requesting last minute changes. I hear that that was how he worked, especially when they were like down to the wire with some things and quickly changing things. And I think she even explained that in that like dribble conference where I think she was talking about that a little bit too.

[Jen Hood]

It's always nice when like you're like design heroes. Like it's like we all have the same problems. It's not what you focus on in the legacy, but it's like oh wow. Like we, we all have to go through that last minute changes. Changes out of scope, like no one is immune to it. And that's like nice, nice to know.

[Amber Asey]

But like it's so important to note that Steve Jobs valued her design sense, recognizing that great user interface was critical to Apple's success. And she was one of the few people in the room influencing the look of modern computing. So kind of a huge deal.

[Amy Hood]

It's incredible. I think too like you can tell she's very, I don't know the way.

[Jen Hood]

She would talk about it.

[Amy Hood]

She was, she was like so then they told me that would never work and I was like, okay, so maybe I'll. She just seemed like unfazed by feedback and I'm sure like in the moment it felt a lot more like she's, I'm, she's talking about things 40 years later. So in the moment maybe it was a little bit harder to take. Right. But I think maybe she was like.

[Jen Hood]

Throwing her computer across.

[Amy Hood]

That's how I am though.

[Jen Hood]

I swear when a project ends, I'm like, that was the most amazing project.

[Amy Hood]

And then when I'm in, I'm like, we don't need to ever do this again. We should just stop now and do something else with our lives. But no, but I thought it was interesting. I think it speaks to why she's had a really long and successful career is that she doesn't.

[Jen Hood]

At least she's not too precious with it.

[Amy Hood]

Yeah, with when it comes to feedback she like gets over it and then she moves on. And she's good at iterating. And I think like even with brand designers you have to come with a clear, strong vision for that first like creative proof. But after that you've got, it's a negotiation and you've got to learn how.

[Jen Hood]

To like get everyone on the same.

[Amy Hood]

Page and, and give a little to get a little. And it's a. Yeah, it's a collaboration.

[Amber Asey]

So yeah, I think she understood that she was designing for the masses, and that it really very much required the opinions of others to make sure that collectively everyone understood it or got it or all of that. In fact, she was only one of two women on this original Macintosh team, which is mind boggling too. And she was only there for three years. So in 1986, she left Apple to join Steve Jobs at NeXT as creative director. So, like, I can't remember that whole story of Steve Jobs leaving Apple so quickly or soon, but. But then in the late 80s and 90s, that's when she worked with Microsoft with the solitaire cards. And then she designed icons for IBM and she created the Cairo font featuring proto emojis, like a dog, a bomb, and happy face. And then in 2006-2010, she also created hundreds of icons for Facebook.

[Jen Hood]

Right.

[Amber Asey]

And in 2015, became Pinterest's first design lead, her first salary job in 30 years.

[Amy Hood]

Oh, that's crazy.

[Jen Hood]

Talk about just like hitting, hitting the s and P500 top five companies, checking them off the list, you know?

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, like, like, are you even, are you even legit if you have not hired Susan Care?

[Jen Hood]

Are you a billion dollar company if you haven't hired Susan Care? No.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. And so today she works as design architect at Niantic Labs, which is the company behind Pokemon Go. No way.

[Amy Hood]

I didn't get that.

[Amber Asey]

And then she runs her own art studio, selling limited edition fine art prints of her original icons.

[Jen Hood]

I love that Susan Care is this far along in her career and she still has a silly little print shop. And yay for that, because we all have the silly little print shop that probably takes more effort than money made. Yeah, it's like, it's not lucrative, but it's the passion. It's like the fun stuff. I'm sure it's lucrative for her.

[Amber Asey]

I don't know if people think about this, but she's 70 years old and her prints aren't going to be signed and printed forever. So if you want a valuable piece of art, better snag one of those while she's still alive.

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, this took a dark turn, Amber.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah, sorry. I'm like, acknowledging the inevitable. Okay, so here's another reality, though. She's working hard at age 70, which is so impressive. And I like, I feel like some of the best designers just like never quit. They never stop. And that's how they become iconic.

[Amy Hood]

I tell you, I don't get much.

[Jen Hood]

Wisdom from Seth Rogen, but he said.

[Amy Hood]

Something the other day on a, on a podcast and he pretty much said like, you can't lose if you haven't stopped yet. Like, there's always the chance to, like, get back on top of your career or, like, like, your legacy if you. Which is probably, like, eventually we have to stop eventually. But I just mean, like, don't quit too soon just because, like, one thing goes. I thought that was a good sentiment.

[Jen Hood]

It's like, yeah, there's another. Ebbs and flows.

[Amber Asey]

There's ebbs and flows.

[Jen Hood]

It's so true.

[Amy Hood]

Yeah.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. So, like, just to kind of recap the legacy of Susan Kerr, I mean, her original sketches are now in museums, like MoMA and SF MoMA. She's won the AIGA medal in 20, 2018. She won a Cooper Hewitt Lifetime Achievement Award in 2019. And her impact is everywhere. Mac icons, like, in Photoshop and stuff like that. Like, Susan Care is in there. And even ipod fonts and Windows solitaire emojis. I mean, those all started somewhere and a lot of them came from Susan Care's original ideas. Like, every modern digital UI we use today has some sense of Susan Care in it, which is so groundbreaking.

[Jen Hood]

It's, like, such a testament to, like, just say yes to the thing that sounds exciting that you think you can figure out because, like, she just kept doing that in her career. And, like, I just love that. That's so cool.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah. One quote I have to end on is she said, I hoped to help counter the stereotypical image of computers as cold and intimidating. And she did. I mean, it's just, like, so cool. What would you say inspires you the most about Susan Care?

[Jen Hood]

I do think it's her just, like I said, like, her attitude of, like, I can try that. And, like, there's a confidence, a quiet confidence about her. She's not someone to talk and get the gr. Like, you know, we're in la, we know people like to talk, and then maybe not follow it up with a lot of action. So, you know, so it's like, instead of, like, doing a lot of talk, she was just like, yeah, let me. Let me work on that. Like, let me come in with some sketches, you know? And she didn't get in her own head of saying, like, I'm not qualified for that. It's like, you really don't know what you're qualified for until you try it. You know, it's like, that's how you uncover new talents and, like, new things that you get excited about that you can learn more about. And she wasn't afraid to do her research. I think it's like something she was going in there with like bland ambition. She was like, you know, she got the books, she did the research, she made sure that she came prepared. And like, that's like, that's just like such. Everybody wants that collaborator. It's like, if you can be that collaborator, you're the one that Steve Jobs brings with you to every next amazing company. Like, that speaks to her, her personality as well as like, Steve Jobs took her with him. Like, that's incredible.

[Amber Asey]

That is so true. To quote Lady Gaga, all it takes is one person in the room to believe in you. Is that right?

[Jen Hood]

Yeah, that's right. What was that? Was that when she was on the press tour for. For that? A star is born. And it just got so, so over the top. But it's true. It really is true. And Lady God is another multi hyphenate.

[Amber Asey]

She's so talented, wild, and like, that's part of your story too, of like it took, you know, that one person to trust you and take a risk on a project. And sometimes at the end of the day, that's really what creates these, like, iconic moments or transitions in careers or whatever is. Is that one person that like, trusts you and believes in you.

[Jen Hood]

I can think back and I still have so many people in my mind of like, yep, that wouldn't have happened without that person. Like, yep, that person gave me that piece of advice that fully changed my career path. And it's like little things, but it really goes a long way. So. Yeah, you're so right.

[Amber Asey]

Yeah.

[Jen Hood]

It's like we're not. We're not islands. It's so much a community. Yeah.

[Amber Asey]

Yes. Thank you so much for joining me today. This is so fun to chat through your story and Susan Care's story.

[Amy Hood]

Yes, this was so fun.

[Jen Hood]

Thank you, Amber.

[Amy Hood]

We go way back and it's honestly just fun to have an excuse to like, hang out and talk with other creatives because we're too busy to hang out. It's like we don't make the time to hang out, like, because, you know, it's a long drive to LA and you're away to our way and all that, but it's just good to hang out.

[Jen Hood]

I know. So good catching up and talking. Susan Kare, the Legend. Thanks for having us.

[Amber Asey]

I tried my best not to cut anything out of this episode because we talked about so much and it was such a fun conversation. So that's why this episode is so long. But thank you for making it to the end. Probably one of the longest episodes of the podcast, but Susan Care's work made computers feel human, and her icons and fonts weren't just functional, they were intuitive and friendly, and they shaped the way that we interact with technology to this day. And a huge thanks to Amy and Jen Hood for joining me today. If you want to check out their branding work, their courses and resources for designers, head over to hoodspadesign.com I'll link that in the Show Notes. Of course, don't forget to grab a copy of their book Freelance and Business and stuff. And keep an eye out for their Part 2 2nd edition of the book, which I'm sure is going to be filled with so much more information. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review, share it with a friend. You can even comment in Spotify. And you can also support the podcast by donating through our link in the Show Notes and even become part of the Patreon community. This helps us to continue researching and sharing the stories of women who shaped design history. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next time. And as always, let's redesign history by celebrating women.